Anyone tired of the power creep in fatties?

[lordofthepit]

Recently, Wizards has pushed up the power level on creatures, which I think is appropriate because non-creature spells were out of whack in the early days of Magic, and because combat interaction is one of the fun aspects of the game (for me personally).

However, I'm not a fan of how aggressively they are pushing the envelope on "fat" creatures, and the power creep is undeniable. The old benchmarks for big creatures used to be iconic cards like Serra Angel, Ernham Djinn, Mahamoti Djinn, Shivan Dragon, Sengir Vampire, and Juggernaut, and they are completely outclassed today by fatties like Baneslayer Angel. Eight colorless mana today gets you an 8/8 with Annihilator 2 (a common at that). Eight mana with extremely restrictive color requirements used to give you crap like an Elder Dragon Legend.

It's not that they are breaking the format; even with the recent power creep, few of them are viable in Legacy at all. And it's not that I hate adapting to new strategies in general, as that's what really makes Magic fun. I'm not even sure why I'm so annoyed by these fatties. I think it's a combination of several things: a) the perception that fatties are for Timmy types, b) playing Magic for the first time during the Rath block and enjoying classic weenie strategies, and c) the fact that big fatties paradoxically make combat less interactive. For the most part, my attitude towards these fatties may not be logical, but it is one of unequivocal disdain: get them out of my game.

[Broham]

Are you just talking about the Eldrazi cards? I'm not seeing a heavy influx of terrible fatties besides them, however I don't really see them in too many Legacy decks...

Also, you say you are tired of them, yet so few are viable in Legacy? Which creatures exactly are giving you trouble? The last fatties printed that get regular play (off the top of my head) are Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf. Perhaps you could elaborate, or this is just a random rant, maybe?

And for the record, Juggernaut still smashes face.

[MMogg]

I kind of sort of maybe perhaps agree with the OP (how's that for decisiveness). I think, Broham, he's talking about a situation such as how all creatures in Reanimator are different than they were 6 years ago, but all the spells in some form of blue-white control deck (FoW, StP, Brainstorm) haven't changed in that time. I've hung on to my cards for years and now all the creatures that used to be standard "fat" like Akroma and/or Verdant Force, are now unplayable.

Legacy is definitely at least partially defined by big, hard-to-cast, easy-to-sneak-into-play creatures like Iona and Progenitus.

[lordofthepit]

Also, you say you are tired of them, yet so few are viable in Legacy? Which creatures exactly are giving you trouble? The last fatties printed that get regular play (off the top of my head) are Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf. Perhaps you could elaborate, or this is just a random rant, maybe?

Mostly a random rant. I actually don't play Magic that much, so I've actually never had a fatty dropped against me. I'm just not happy with the development of them becoming more powerful and efficient to the point that they might some day see regular play and actually become superior to traditional aggro strategies. Long way off, but it still bugs me.

I think if I had to identify what bugs me the most about these fatties is that it takes away from the flavor of the game, which is ironic because fatties should be more iconic and hence more flavorful (see Elder Dragon Legends, Shivan Dragon, Serra Angel, and my namesake, Lord of the Pit). When I play Magic, I like to see myself as a mage who summons creatures like Elves, Goblins, Lions, etc. do do my bidding (and yes, I prefer "summoning creatures" to "casting a creature spell"). Casting an "Eldrazi" or an Avatar doesn't really belong in my vision of Dominaria, and moreover, the fact that there are so many fatties kind of detracts from the appeal of existing ones (from a flavor standpoint).

Magic: the Gathering used to depict a battle between two mages in an ancient/medieval world, relatively primitive in technology but surrounded by magical forces from which the mages drew their power. It's now turned into some bad Transformers-meets-War of the Worlds science fiction from an alien planet designed to appeal to the YuGiOh/Pokemon crowd. I'm not saying that in a derogatory sense, but I'm not part of that crowd, and Magic has lost some of its allure that drew me to the game.

[danyul]

I tend to agree. I remember when I opened my first Force of Nature and thought it was the coolest card ever. Fatties used to have some flair to them. Verdant Force makes little tree helpers. That's pretty fuckin cool. Akroma feels like an angel of vengeance. Pretty damned cool. Leviathan is soooo damned big that you have to sac Islands to him. What a beast. We don't tend to get flavorful cards like that anymore. I mean, Emrakul is pretty cool. I'll admit that much, but it feels like they are spamming us with fat for the sake of fat and not fat for the sake of cool.

Also I hate Tarmogoyf. Just had to get that off my chest.

[Angelfire]

I don't call it a power creep. Wizards has just finally realized that 5+ mana creatures need to have a larger impact than they did. Huge creatures have always been underpowered/less efficient and it is one of the main reasons people build fast decks. Don't let nostalgia make you think "your" fatties are cooler or better designed than a lot of the new fatties. Akroma is poorly designed. Why does she have Haste or Trample? Flameblast Dragon's "Blaze" ability is much cooler than Shivan Dragon's "Firebreathing" or cards like Craw Wurm simply don't do enough for 6 mana. Cards should be relatively equal in efficiency of mana to power (if you can get a 2/2 for 2 w/ a good ability, then there should be a 5/5 for 5 with a good ability).

I do think Baneslayer Angel is overstepping the efficiency boundary however. Being a mythic rare shouldn't allow a card to be overpowered.

[Nihil Credo]

I'm fine with pushing fatties as long as they are designed with some cleverness and, most importantly, allowing for interesting interactions beyond "cast it, hope it sticks, bash". More World Quellers and less Baneslayer Angels; more Siege-Gang Commanders and less Broodmate Dragons.

[Sims]

I don't know, I've had a lot of fun playing casual with my Pelakka Wurm thing is a fuckin beast

[Aleksandr]

I don't call it a power creep. Wizards has just finally realized that 5+ mana creatures need to have a larger impact than they did.

This.

[wcm8]

I'm fine with 5+ cc creatures being good enough to be played. I tend to agree that if a spell is going to cost a significant amount, it should impact the game in a meaningful way beyond just being able to beat.

I think Tombstalker is a great example of fair but playable fat. It allows an alternative cost that isn't too restrictive, fits within black's theme, and is competitive. It's also easily answerable, so it's unlikely to win the game on its own.

Tarmogoyf should have cost 1GG, or perhaps even just GG in my opinion, but it's not too crazy.

However, fat creatures should be made with Reanimation strategies in mind. It seems like they didn't consider that aspect at ALL when they printed Iona. If you are able to hardcast her, sure, you deserve to be able to shut off entire decks. But if you get her out on turn 2 and cause a scoop, I don't feel it's a very fair strategy at all. In her case, it's not even so much about her being a fast clock, it's that she works essentially as a preemptive counterspell to most if not all of the answers your deck might have. And weren't Wizards concerned with making Magic "more fun" by limiting counterspell options? That is one card that I feel is unfair in Legacy (and to some extent, even in Standard via Polymorph strategies).

[Otter]

I don't mind the 5cc creatures being playable, it's that each set has like 10 fatties in the high cc range that have a ton of abilities and some ridiculous p/t ratio. Fat used to feel special, when Akroma or Verdant Force came out, heads turned and people said, "Woah, they printed something HUGE!" Nowadays every set is filled to the brim with overcosted mythic beatsticks and none of them mean anything. Something like Terra Stomper comes out and nobody bats an eye. The thing is strictly better than Force of Nature, often better than Silvos, and it just doesn't even pull the slightest bit of emotion out of anyone. I find that a bit depressing.

[dahcmai]

It's a slow power creep, but it kind of has to happen or the game dries up into what the best ones printed were and nothing ever changes. Tarmogoyf was probably an accident, but I'd warrant Wild Nacatyl was not. Jackal Pup was not cutting it anymore and anyone with a brain could notice it. When the format devolved into control decks and combo, something needed to break up the party. Remember when thresh was pretty much top dog at every tournament and all we talked about was what the best splash was? Zoo was the party crasher. It happens every so often.

[lordofthepit]

I'm fine with pushing fatties as long as they are designed with some cleverness and, most importantly, allowing for interesting interactions beyond "cast it, hope it sticks, bash". More World Quellers and less Baneslayer Angels; more Siege-Gang Commanders and less Broodmate Dragons.

I think this is the key. "Fatties" like World Queller, SGC, and Tombstalker require that you put them in the right decks to best take advantage of their interactions. Creatures like Terra Stomper, Ulamog's Crusher, and Baneslayer Angel require less interactivity. And that whole rant I had above about weaker flavor still applies.

[Rizso]

While i like the powercreep i dont think there should come more white, red and green creatures that can do 6+ by turn 3. Goblin Guide, Wild Nacatl Steppe Lynx im looking at you! I think some black creatures should get little of the powercreeping love.

[General_Norris]

Tarmogoyf was probably an accident, but I'd warrant Wild Nacatyl was not.

I agree.

I think there has been a slight power creep creature-wise after Ravnica. Ravnica was good enough to be very playable but the manabase hurts keeping it in check. Now there are creatures that don't have that drawback but are at the same power-level.

However it's not as bad as the graveyard hate that is being printed everyday.

[4eak]

I think the "fatty" issue is actually better understood as a mana efficency issue. In this light, we might argue that Wizards isn't printing high mana cost cards actually worth hardcasting. Cheating them into play is the best option (and few decks honestly do it well), but the general power curve is greatly skewed towards the bottom. Here is a (poorly formatted) quick analysis of the mana costs of the most frequently used cards (with proportion) in Legacy:



Quantity - Card Name (most of it) - Average payed CC - (Multiplication is fun) - Notes


9740 Swords to Plowshares 1 9740
964 Path to Exile 1 964
904 Orim's Chant 1 904 2-kick
892 Oblivion Ring 3 2676
881 Wrath of God 4 3524
879 J?tun Grunt 2 1758
738 Decree of Justice 6 4428 avg? x-cycle
705 Enlightened Tutor 1 705
572 Armageddon 4 2288
545 Serra Avenger 2 1090
521 Ghostly Prison 3 1563
516 Mother of Runes 1 516
505 Humility 4 2020
502 Exalted Angel 4 2008 morph
484 Elspeth 4 1936
468 Eternal Dragon 7 3276 2-cycle
451 Solitary Confinement 3 1353
374 Silver Knight 2 748
363 Magus of the Tabernacle 4 1452
337 Isamaru 1 337
317 Sinew Sliver 2 634
238 Nomads en-Kor 1 238
232 Savannah Lions 1 232
216 Replenish 4 864
216 Moat 4 864
190 Iona 9 1710
169 Soltari Priest 2 338
161 Disenchant 2 322
155 Tireless Tribe 1 155
149 Steppe Lynx 1 149
1234 Disenchant 2 2468
659 Swords to Plowshares 1 659
646 Orim's Chant 1 646 2-kick
638 Circle of Protection: Red 2 1276
581 Path to Exile 1 581
512 J?tun Grunt 2 1024
447 Armageddon 4 1788
446 Seal of Cleansing 2 892
397 Enlightened Tutor 1 397
371 Ray of Revelation 2 742
339 Pulse of the Fields 3 1017
298 Aura of Silence 3 894
297 Runed Halo 2 594
257 Rule of Law 3 771
248 Serenity 2 496
14610 Force of Will 0 0 5-norm
14095 Brainstorm 1 14095
8676 Daze 0 0 2-norm
5334 Stifle 1 5334
5203 Ponder 1 5203
4422 Standstill 2 8844
3945 Spell Snare 1 3945
3424 Counterbalance 2 6848
3385 Counterspell 2 6770
1513 Trinket Mage 3 4539
1502 Narcomoeba 0 0 2-norm
1418 Mystical Tutor 1 1418
1356 Lord of Atlantis 2 2712
1337 Silvergill Adept 2 2674 5-norm
1331 Breakthrough 1 1331
1328 Merrow Reejerey 3 3984
1289 Cursecatcher 1 1289
1131 Careful Study 1 1131
993 Spellstutter Sprite 2 1986
938 Fact or Fiction 4 3752
937 Intuition 3 2811
884 Cunning Wish 3 2652
784 Vendilion Clique 3 2352
728 Serum Visions 1 728
659 Deep Analysis 2 1318 4-norm
571 Predict 2 1142
561 Cloud of Faeries 2 1122
552 Sower of Temptation 4 2208
508 Wake Thrasher 3 1524
475 Thoughtcast 1 475 5-norm
3662 Blue Elemental Blast 1 3662
2760 Hydroblast 1 2760
1440 Chain of Vapor 1 1440
1243 Echoing Truth 2 2486
957 Submerge 0 0 5-norm
865 Spell Pierce 1 865
843 Threads of Disloyalty 3 2529
750 Chill 2 1500
749 Stifle 1 749
606 Back to Basics 3 1818
606 Propaganda 3 1818
537 Mind Harness 1 537
378 Hurkyl's Recall 2 756
363 Spell Snare 1 363
333 Disrupt 1 333
5069 Dark Confidant 2 10138
3258 Dark Ritual 1 3258
3192 Thoughtseize 1 3192
2984 Duress 1 2984
2690 Cabal Therapy 0.5 1345 split
1897 Hymn to Tourach 2 3794
1417 Tombstalker 2 2834 8-norm
1386 Stinkweed Imp 0 0 3-norm
1367 Sinkhole 2 2734
1365 Bridge from Below 0 0 3-norm
1340 Putrid Imp 1 1340
1229 Ichorid 0 0 4-norm
1126 Cabal Ritual 2 2252
1119 Infernal Tutor 2 2238
1002 Dread Return 0 0 4-norm
877 Golgari Thug 0 0 4-norm
867 Hypnotic Specter 3 2601
815 Smother 2 1630
625 Nantuko Shade 2 1250
543 Snuff Out 0 0 4-norm
516 Ad Nauseam 5 2580
503 Diabolic Edict 2 1006
472 Tendrils of Agony 4 1888
460 Warren Weirding 2 920
421 Disciple of the Vault 1 421
404 Bitterblossom 2 808
362 Shriekmaw 2 724 5-norm
347 Smallpox 2 694
322 Ill-Gotten Gains 4 1288
295 Extirpate 1 295
3572 Engineered Plague 3 10716
3383 Extirpate 1 3383
2659 Leyline of the Void 0 0 4-norm
1390 Duress 1 1390
573 Cabal Therapy 0.5 286.5 split
562 Dark Confidant 2 1124
537 Perish 3 1611
519 Thoughtseize 1 519
476 Ravenous Trap 0 0 4-norm
466 Yixlid Jailer 2 932
338 Faerie Macabre 0 0 3-norm
313 Slaughter Pact 0 0 3-norm
308 Diabolic Edict 2 616
306 Smother 2 612
253 Unmask 0 0 4-norm
5472 Lightning Bolt 1 5472
2761 Mogg Fanatic 1 2761
2328 Goblin Lackey 1 2328
2251 Goblin Piledriver 2 4502
2247 Goblin Matron 3 6741
2247 Goblin Warchief 3 6741
2237 Goblin Ringleader 4 8948
2115 Burning Wish 2 4230
1964 Chain Lightning 1 1964
1754 Grim Lavamancer 1 1754
1649 Gempalm Incinerator 2 3298 3-norm
1573 Fireblast 0 0 6-norm
1458 Magma Jet 2 2916
1404 Kird Ape 1 1404
1277 Simian Spirit Guide 0 0 3-norm
1242 Price of Progress 2 2484
1110 Siege-Gang Commander 5 5550
983 Countryside Crusher 3 2949
973 Seething Song 3 2919
963 Rift Bolt 1 963 3-norm
801 Magus of the Moon 3 2403
774 Seismic Assault 3 2322
770 Rite of Flame 1 770
678 Incinerate 2 1356
657 Devastating Dreams 2 1314
552 Lava Spike 1 552
478 Empty the Warrens 4 1912
470 Blood Moon 3 1410
433 Gathan Raiders 3 1299 5-norm
418 Keldon Marauders 2 836
2888 Red Elemental Blast 1 2888
2178 Pyroblast 1 2178
2148 Pyroclasm 2 4296
1488 Shattering Spree 1 1488 x
1256 Pyrostatic Pillar 2 2512
1104 Pyrokinesis 0 0 6-norm
927 Ancient Grudge 1.5 1390.5 split
604 Price of Progress 2 1208
518 Blood Moon 3 1554
337 Firestorm 1 337
337 Devastating Dreams 2 674
292 Volcanic Fallout 3 876
262 Empty the Warrens 4 1048
257 Magus of the Moon 3 771
254 Sulfuric Vortex 3 762
12375 Tarmogoyf 2 24750
3064 Nimble Mongoose 1 3064
1921 Life from the Loam 2 3842
1751 Eternal Witness 3 5253
1469 Survival of the Fittest 2 2938
1375 Golgari Grave-Troll 0 0 5-norm
1247 Wild Nacatl 1 1247
1178 Birds of Paradise 1 1178
1174 Noble Hierarch 1 1174
822 Terravore 3 2466
789 Elvish Spirit Guide 0 0 3-norm
702 Llanowar Elves 1 702
676 Land Grant 0 0 2-norm
658 Werebear 2 1316
598 Exploration 1 598
557 Tinder Wall 1 557
542 Natural Order 4 2168
500 Argothian Enchantress 2 1000
496 Enchantress's Presence 3 1488
469 Utopia Sprawl 1 469
455 Fyndhorn Elves 1 455
430 Quirion Ranger 1 430
394 Sakura-Tribe Elder 2 788
394 Priest of Titania 2 788
386 Elephant Grass 1 386
362 Living Wish 2 724
342 Wild Mongrel 2 684
340 Rancor 1 340
328 Sylvan Messenger 4 1312
324 Genesis 0 0 5-norm
8939 Krosan Grip 3 26817
1077 Choke 3 3231
527 Xantid Swarm 1 527
424 Naturalize 2 848
403 Reverent Silence 0 0 4-norm
368 Gaea's Blessing 0 0 2-norm
317 Life from the Loam 2 634
176 Tarmogoyf 2 352
164 Seal of Primordium 2 328
146 City of Solitude 3 438
142 Compost 2 284
109 Tsunami 4 436
98 Viridian Shaman 3 294
94 Hail Storm 3 282
91 Seeds of Innocence 3 273
5330 Aether Vial 1 5330
4824 Sensei's Divining Top 1 4824
2970 Chrome Mox 0 0
2799 Engineered Explosives 1 2799 avg?
2736 Lion's Eye Diamond 0 0
2688 Mox Diamond 0 0
2511 Umezawa's Jitte 2 5022
2288 Lotus Petal 0 0
2229 Fire / Ice 2 4458
2207 Chalice of the Void 2 4414 avg?
2035 Pernicious Deed 3 6105 x
7682 Tormod's Crypt 0 0
5020 Pithing Needle 1 5020
3514 Relic of Progenitus 1 3514
2032 Engineered Explosives 1 2032 avg?
1952 Meddling Mage 2 3904
1882 Chalice of the Void 2 3764 avg?
1545 Umezawa's Jitte 2 3090
1310 Gaddock Teeg 2 2620
879 Vexing Shusher 2 1758
774 Firespout 3 2322
684 Thorn of Amethyst 2 1368
626 Ethersworn Canonist 2 1252
621 Trygon Predator 3 1863
604 Pernicious Deed 3 1812 x
464 Powder Keg 2 928

354948 517384

Average CC= 1.457633231


Please note that many of the higher-CC spells are usually 'cheated' into play and almost never actually hardcast.

The average cost of cards in this format is quite low. High-CC cards are generally not worth casting. If you are going to have cards like Tarmogoyf in the format, your higher CC spells will have to be incredible to put up even close to the same efficiency. Despite the presence of CB, Chalice and 3sphere to punish the mana-curve of the format, the raw mana efficiency of Legacy's most popular cards are completely worth the minimal risk.

From my perspective, if we actually wanted to balance out the mana curve of the format, it wouldn't be by nerfing the development of high-CC cards ("fatties"). Instead, we'd need to see massive power creep in higher-CC cards. I'm not talking about just 10cc spells, but even 5cc spells, which is extremely high for Legacy.




peace,
4eak

[the Thin White Duke]

We don't tend to get flavorful cards like that anymore. I mean, Emrakul is pretty cool. I'll admit that much, but it feels like they are spamming us with fat for the sake of fat and not fat for the sake of cool.

I thought the mythic Eldrazi were shocking and flavor-wise pretty cool at first. But then think that they're just extremely expensive creatures with other spells tacked on. Also considering the slow nature of T2 right now it gives Wizards a chance to "go there". I don't want to sound too harsh (because maybe I'm wrong about this) but it seems like the Magic overlords are getting a little lazy in the design department. Maybe that's just in step with the theme of the thread; we're all a little frustrated with Wizards not throwing Legacy too many bones lately.

[xTrainx]

I think 4eak wins the thread.

[hyperchord24]

Invansion gave you an 8/8 trampler for 8 with a not too irrelivant ability. But I'm not sure that proves anything. I found it funny that for fourth edition they discontinued cards like Roc of Kher ridges and Hypnotic Spector. And printed "fixed" cards like abyssal spector. That didn't really "fix" anything. Now you have cards like Dimir Cutpurse and we don't bat an eyelash. It's as if WotC figured out that hard and fast rules like "a 3/3 flyer can cost no less than five mana" aren't necessary. You just can't go the other way like they have with Baneslayer Angel or Tarmogoyf. Even Iona is streching it.

[rockout]

(poorly formatted)

Tell me about it. I can barely make out what any of the columns are meant to be.

[Aggro_zombies]

we're all a little frustrated with Wizards not throwing Legacy too many bones lately.
Despite its (many) failings, Shards block was actually incredible for Legacy. It gave new life to Storm combo through Ad Nauseum, made :g::w::u: a real color combination, and powered up Zoo to the point of competitiveness. I mean, look:

Wild Nacatl
Qasali Pridemage
Noble Hierarch
Maelstrom Pulse
Ad Nauseum
Progenitus
Rhox War Monk
Path to Exile
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Knight of the Reliquary


It's not like Zendikar, which added a lot of cards that just improved specific decks. Zoo was a virtually unplayable deck, even with Tarmogoyf, until Reborn came out and added Pridemage. Prior to the boost Bant got, white only ever ended up in blue/green/x decks for Swords, and it had trouble with aggro and not enough power to add to the Counterbalance mirror. Now, you're basically in Bant as a default and have to consider whether it's worth it to splash out of those colors, not into them.

Shards had a HUGE effect on the composition of the format, one that we're not likely to see again for a while. I'm sorry, but just how many bones do you want Wizards to throw us?

[chokin]

Tell me about it. I can barely make out what any of the columns are meant to be.

The first column is how many times a card appears in the format (he probably used deckcheck or something similar)

The second column is the name of the card.

The third column is what people pay for it. Like STP costs 1 mana. Force is a 0 cost spell. Thoughtcast is generally played as a 1 cost spell.

The fourth column is the number of the times it shows up in the format multiplied by the average cost. (column 1 times column 3)

The Fifth Column is from the TV show called V.

The fifth column is also his notes...like morph, actual cost for spells that can be "cheated", and he mentions an average cost for X spells.

His "average CC" portion is simply the total of column 3 divided by column 1.

Does I is getting a cookie?

[the Thin White Duke]

Wild Nacatl
Qasali Pridemage
Noble Hierarch
Maelstrom Pulse
Ad Nauseum
Progenitus
Rhox War Monk
Path to Exile
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Knight of the Reliquary
I'm sorry, but just how many bones do you want Wizards to throw us?

I thought the theme of the thread was Fatties. Progenitus seems to be the only fatty on your list.

[Aggro_zombies]

I thought the theme of the thread was Fatties. Progenitus seems to be the only fatty on your list.
To be fair, your post accused R&D of being lazy and then complained about Legacy not getting any bones, neither of which are particularly topical.

I do not think the Eldrazi - or any of the other fat in Rise - will see play in Legacy until better cheat cards are printed. Fatties are virtually unplayable in this format anyway; Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary are pretty much it in terms of large creatures that are actually cast. Everything else involves using enablers to cheat big creatures into play for a fraction of their actual cost. Sneak Attack, Polymorph, and Proteus Staff are just not good enough when compared to Reanimate, Exhume, and Natural Order.

That said, fatties tend to be very visible components of a set, especially at higher rarities. Making them sexier by pushing power levels helps sell sets more to players looking for big, exciting dorks. Rise is almost certainly an exception in terms of size; Zendikar and Worldwake before it were more geared towards small, fast dorks concentrated in the 1-3 mana range, so making Rise all about the big guns provides a clean and frankly refreshing break in Limited from "Finish your round with twenty-five minutes left, all tournament long."

I don't really mind the push for fatties; I'm more annoyed with how hard creatures are being pushed. Then again, I'm the kind of player who prefers playing outside of the combat phase, so I'm part of a pretty small minority here.

[Jak]

Tell me about it. I can barely make out what any of the columns are meant to be.

Name, Mana Cost, Number of Times Shown Up, Random Footnotes

[the Thin White Duke]

I don't really mind the push for fatties; I'm more annoyed with how hard creatures are being pushed. Then again, I'm the kind of player who prefers playing outside of the combat phase, so I'm part of a pretty small minority here.

I've played a lot of control (and still do), so I actually like where you're coming from. I guess I could have used a better word than '"lazy", but I think R&D plays things conservatively to maintain power levels outside of combat wins. I don't think we'll see much love for combo in T2 because Wizards doesn't want to scare new players off, so that may hurt the trickle down to Legacy. What was the last good combo deck in T2? Dragonstorm? With the way the game is mapped out years ahead of time, I wonder how much longer creatures are going to get pushed so hard.
Sorry to keep veering off topic.

[Aggro_zombies]

I've played a lot of control (and still do), so I actually like where you're coming from. I guess I could have used a better word than '"lazy", but I think R&D plays things conservatively to maintain power levels outside of combat wins. I don't think we'll see much love for combo in T2 because Wizards doesn't want to scare new players off, so that may hurt the trickle down to Legacy. What was the last good combo deck in T2? Dragonstorm? With the way the game is mapped out years ahead of time, I wonder how much longer creatures are going to get pushed so hard.
Sorry to keep veering off topic.
Well, to be fair, control on control matchups are pretty miserable for people who aren't really into it. 5CC sucked the life out of Standard before Zendikar came out, so I think Wizards wanted to push something that more players find fun, which is combat. I don't mind control versus control because there's a lot nuance and room for skill, but that's neither here nor there.

Aggro can actually be quite skill intensive. Most people think you just turn your guys sideways and win, but there's always a way to punt a matchup. With a few notable exceptions, there's actually a lot of planning and thought that goes into combat decisions in aggro matchups: mapping how much damage you can do over the next couple of turns versus how much your opponent can absorb, what you do if your opponent has the removal spell, how your next couple of draws can influence your damage output, how much damage your opponent can do to you and whether it's worth it to block, etc. I just don't find those kinds of decisions particularly interesting to make.

Regardless, the power creep on fat is only as bad as your dislike for fatties.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think the power creep at all levels is problematic. I love Tarmogoyf, he's big and he's nasty and the aggro player in me thinks he's just tits. But he's overpowered. This kind of power creep isn't necessary to keep the game interesting. You certainly saw some creep, in T1, between say, Mirage and Invasions, but with the exception of the mistakes in Urzas, it was a minimal creep. Gold cards got better, artifacts got better, but each of the mono colors didn't really pick up power level for T2/Block/Draft over the course of the intervening sets. Dissipate was roughly as good as Dismiss which was only slightly better than Rewind which was not significantly worse than Thwart which was roughly as good as Mystic Snake. You've got a pretty constant power level there (I couldn't think of a 4 mana counter for MVW block). Pup was on the same power level as Lavamancer or Mogg Sentry. Now, 2/1's for 1 are common, 2/2's only less so and there is a 3/3 for 1 with no real drawback. There was a time when the 3/2 shroud tiger from Zen block would've raised eyebrows and been a heavily discussed card. Now it's not even all that good in draft.

[coraz86]

I do not think the Eldrazi - or any of the other fat in Rise - will see play in Legacy until better cheat cards are printed...Sneak Attack, Polymorph, and Proteus Staff are just not good enough when compared to Reanimate, Exhume, and Natural Order.

Just slide some Eldrazi and Natural Orders into a Painter deck and remember to always call green. Emrakul seems better than Progenitus when actually on the table.

For extra fun, use Artisan of Kozilek instead and recur the guy you sacrificed to NO! It's like shopping at Aldi's, but way more badass.

[Penguinizer]

So it's essentially using a 3 card combo that wins in 2 turns to replace a 2 card combo that wins in 2 turns. This seems a bit strange.

[dahcmai]

So why is it LSV and a few other pros keep talking about this "Eldrazi fat" deck in standard? I keep wondering if they are just joking since I really doubt anything will come out of those other than cheating Emrakul in Legacy.

Least it made a few formats (limited, EDH) a lot more fun.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I enjoy Kozilek, since he sits right in the probable range for my aggro-ramp in extended.

[kitsunewarlock]

Magic has always had a love-hate relationship with fat creatures.

Everything in quotes is a bit of a formulaic rant that might give some insights into my opinion but does very little else.



Heck, one of white's recurring keywords from the early days of magic was Banding--a mechanic intended in every way to make fatties cry (cancels trample and lets tons of weenies beat a fattie while only losing 1 small guy).

Of course, there's *always* the fact that giant creatures will be both time- and mana-investments that can be just as easily killed as smaller creatures with reguards to non-creature spells (Swords to Plowshares, Terror, etc...). While there are spells like Smother and Lightning Bolt, there's enough Wrath of Gods and Terminates floating around that fat creatures need some form of protection to survive.

Something that Wizards was VERY afraid to give creatures in the early days of magic. Hence why Autumn Willow and Ishan's Shade saw play (aside from the "Homelands Rule").

But Wizards has tried to support creature combat since the earliest days of Magic (especially since Moat + Serra Angel found itself to be the most amazing headache of the time that didn't include the word "Stasis"). Unfortunately, creatures are slow. Even one drops have to wait a turn to attack. And haste is only reserved for the weak, the temporary or the overcost. A

Ourll of which are seen either as non-creatures (i.e. ball lightning is considered a burn spell by most, or at least played like it) or a game ender (Akroma) that just seems to have haste tacked on for completeness sake.

Even if a creature attacks, it has a 50/50 chance to hit depending on the choice of your opponent (assuming they have a creature to block with). While there are abilities to make things more interesting, in the end they fail against overwelming force. Trample loses to stronger force. Flying and Shadow make interesting games occasionally but ultimately just let both players see the "clock" and time their wrath's accordingly. Every other keyword, from First Strike, Deathtouch, etc..., are almost always placed with either mana, power or toughness as the sacrifice. And, unfortunately, in the end a creature is only as effective as its power, toughness and mana cost. Abilities help a great deal--in many cases they make or break a creature. But if you have four 3/2 firsts trike creatures and your opponent has four 4/5 tarmogoyfs, you better believe the tarmogoyf player is in a better position. Not because he can swing recklessly--but because he can sit back and wait till he pulls enough removal spells that your creatures can't block him. You can do the same, but in the end he is swinging for more damage than you when he pulls his removal spell.

In the end only one or two keywords (Double Strike, Poisonous, etc...) do ANYTHING when they hit your opponent. And hitting an opponent is the primary role of attack-based creatures. So whenever you attack with creatures, odds are the opponent is mostly concerned with the power of your creatures (obviously; just bear with me). Keywords are meaningless unless he decides to block. And keywords, aside from Protection and Shroud, are pretty much meaningless to removal spells. So why not just use removal in the first place? And if people are using removal more than blockers, why not use the strongest power creatures so you can do more damage (i.e. be more effective) with your creatures?

The other problem with creature combat is simply that damage leaves creatures at the end of the turn. Effects like Wither and even Haunt try to compensate for this...but in the end the word "chump blocker" is thrown around almost as often as "blocker". Instant speed buff spells are just far too weak since they last until end of turn. Auras are always laughably weak. And equipment is done at sorcery speed. Most decisions based on creature combat aren't made in combat. They are made before combat. They are known before the creature even swings. And the spot removal is ready to deal with the biggest threat before it has a chance to even trigger abilities like annihilator.

The earliest abilities of Banding, Regeneration and even Firebreathing are exceptions to the "no decisions after declare attackers phase by the active player".

Creature combat isn't just dead due to removal though. The whole idea of attacking in Magic gives enormous advantages to the defending player. The only real advantage the attacking player has is the opportunity to do damage and the fact the defender might have tapped out to play something in main phase 2. Since "hidden" power/toughness enhancements don't see much play, the defender can usually estimate the result of a battle based on his or her own actions and assume no interference from the attacker. As a result, blockers will always either be "remove the opponent's creature", "prevent the damage of the opponent's creature" or "attack over the opponent's tapped creature next turn" (the other major advantage given to the defender).

Creature's don't "fight" or "battle". That would imply an exchange of more than a single blow (in my high-fantasy infected mind, at least).

But none of this is a bad thing...and I swear I had a point here but the computer lab is closing and I semed to have fogotten in the hasty search for my cell phone.

EDIT: But long story short: I love the new direction Wizards is making. Creatures getting stronger is good as they were underplayed for a myriad of reasons I only began to explain in grave detail above this line. Yay for stronger creatures. Maybe eventually I'll be able to imagine magic as two wizards building up and controlling/maneuvering an army instead of playing every creature like they were Prodigal Sorcerers (i.e. the player knows, based on everything on the board, exactly what the outcome of every battle will be and how much/little damage he or she will do the opponent and/or their creatures based on the optimal moves).

Maybe if we like...had a deck of creatures where we start with 4 cards...and a deck of non-creatures including auras, instants and sorceries, where we start with 5 cards...then we can spend time building up our forces and m...damnit am I describing L5R again?


I also feel that, from Kamigawa (or even Mirrodin) onward, the rise in creature strength was planned out in such a way that it will capstone right where we are at the end of the 5 year plan (now 6 year plan thanks to the inclusion of another block). Wizards tried their best to put creatures on par with non-creatures and now that a pretty fair balance between the two types have been achieved, I'm REALLY excited to see what the next 5 years (very appropriately starting with another Mirrodin set) will bring us! A return to 2 drop countermagic? Reprints of cards like Stasis and Winter Orb? A return to power the likes of Cursed Scroll?! Or maybe, dare I say it, another Force of Will...

Our current state feels like an epic progression of power that started back in Mercadian Masques (when, after the year of combo-only, Wizards decided they needed to push aggro more). It peaked out in a bit in Oddssey (that is, -tog might have been a bit *too* good)...but fortunately Wizards had Combo/Control's back with cards like Standstill, Stifle and the entire Storm mechanic. Right now people complain that standard is too aggro and removal heavy...but I feel its all a culmination of a grand plan that will result in the most amazing format the likes of which we've ever seen--a perfect balance between combo, control and aggro...slow games and long games...fun and competition.

Assuming Wizards can keep the power of Nourishing Lich at bay, of course. :P

[TeenieBopper]

Did you walk barefoot to school, in two feet deep snow, uphill both ways too?

[Jak]

I'm only tired of all my creatures in my deck NOT being in the older border.

[Aggro_zombies]

I feel its all a culmination of a grand plan that will result in the most amazing format the likes of which we've ever seen--a perfect balance between combo, control and aggro...slow games and long games...fun and competition.
This already happened, years ago. It was called Standard with Ravnica in it, and it was a totally awesome time.

[lordofthepit]

I'm only tired of all my creatures in my deck NOT being in the older border.

This. I might be irrational, but this is my single most hated decision Wizards has ever made, and it's prevented me from buying new packs instead of only buying new singles that fit my decks.

[kitsunewarlock]

This. I might be irrational, but this is my single most hated decision Wizards has ever made, and it's prevented me from buying new packs instead of only buying new singles that fit my decks.

I agree. The new frame is one of the fugliest changes in card designs I've seen in a while. And they don't "blend" well with the older cards either. It does make sorting cards en-mass much easier...and I do like L5R's second redesign though...


Did you walk barefoot to school, in two feet deep snow, uphill both ways too?

Sudden massive tectonic shifts were an issue for those of us in the Ice Age. But we learned to live with it and were better people for it! in our days if a card was removed from the game, our opponent's were legally allowed to eat them! And wild dogs could be substituted for 1/1 tokens, who would roam the halls of the PTQs looking for those foolish enough to attempt to scrub out early!

[Skeggi]

Here is a (poorly formatted) quick analysis of the mana costs of the most frequently used cards (with proportion) in Legacy:
Some cards, like Swords to Plowshares, Orim's Chant, Stifle and Duress show up twice on that list. Is it perhaps because there are multiple versions of these cards? But then - why are there only 2 instances of Swords to Plowshares, while there are many more versions? And why are cards like Werebear and Hail Storm on there while Sea Drake is missing? There is also a significant lack of Serendib Efreet - looks like you forgot Faerie Stompy, Eldariel is going to be so mad at you :wink:

[Vacrix]

I don't think power creep in fatties is a big deal unless you were one of the unlucky souls that owned a deck that basically rotated out of the format as a result. Solidarity was one such deck (come on WoTC unban Frantic Search!), its not nearly as viable as it used to be. Landstill is also not seeing nearly as much play as it used to. New fatties make things more interesting by altering the meta. I don't think its a bad thing unless you are on the short end of the stick.

Then again, all the players who played a Tier 2 deck like Reanimator (like myself) now are rewarded for buying those Entombs when they were cheap, considering the massive power creep in the creatures Reanimator now has access to.

In short, there are winners and losers when things change. Economics applies to Magic too.

[walkerdog]

I think the power creep at all levels is problematic. I love Tarmogoyf, he's big and he's nasty and the aggro player in me thinks he's just tits. But he's overpowered. This kind of power creep isn't necessary to keep the game interesting. You certainly saw some creep, in T1, between say, Mirage and Invasions, but with the exception of the mistakes in Urzas, it was a minimal creep. Gold cards got better, artifacts got better, but each of the mono colors didn't really pick up power level for T2/Block/Draft over the course of the intervening sets. Dissipate was roughly as good as Dismiss which was only slightly better than Rewind which was not significantly worse than Thwart which was roughly as good as Mystic Snake. You've got a pretty constant power level there (I couldn't think of a 4 mana counter for MVW block). Pup was on the same power level as Lavamancer or Mogg Sentry. Now, 2/1's for 1 are common, 2/2's only less so and there is a 3/3 for 1 with no real drawback. There was a time when the 3/2 shroud tiger from Zen block would've raised eyebrows and been a heavily discussed card. Now it's not even all that good in draft.

While they're starting to push to the other extreme, for the longest time, creatures were pathetic. Serra Angel? Good only b/c the others were so bad. In fact, she was removed from printings b/c she was considered OP by R/D at the time. At the same time, counters and removal have been too efficient for years. It is a start to give a land back for W: RFG target critter, and make Wrath not kill regeneraters, but WTC is still finding their way on this too.

[jrsthethird]

A return to 2 drop countermagic? Reprints of cards like Stasis and Winter Orb? A return to power the likes of Cursed Scroll?! Or maybe, dare I say it, another Force of Will...

A good 2-mana hard counter. We will be Deprived of that for a while not.

Stasis? Not as long as Garruk Wildspeaker is around.
Winter Orb? A lot easier to abuse as Stasis. We get a similar effect in Standard from Manabarbs.
Cursed Scroll? We could handle this. It would give a classic mono-red Sligh power in Standard (or a return to Boros Bushwacker being good, essentiall RW Sligh)


And wild dogs could be substituted for 1/1 tokens, who would roam the halls of the PTQs looking for those foolish enough to attempt to scrub out early!

Last time I checked Wild Dogs was 2/1.


Some cards, like Swords to Plowshares, Orim's Chant, Stifle and Duress show up twice on that list. Is it perhaps because there are multiple versions of these cards? But then - why are there only 2 instances of Swords to Plowshares, while there are many more versions? And why are cards like Werebear and Hail Storm on there while Sea Drake is missing? There is also a significant lack of Serendib Efreet - looks like you forgot Faerie Stompy, Eldariel is going to be so mad at you :wink:

The duplicates are from sideboards. Notice how the top W, when the numbers get bigger, is Disenchant, B is Perish, R is REB, G is Grip, all shitty maindeck but sick SB cards.

[Malchar]

A new set comes out:

Everyone complains that there's nothing good in it for legacy. Wizards doesn't care about the format. Another few months of the same old stagnation.

or

There are a few cards that are actually good enough to be used in legacy. Everyone complains about the massive power creep and about how Wizards is destroying the format.

[Vacrix]

I think Magic is bound to have power creep. Its like Deflation in Magic really. People used to say Psychatog was too strong. Now we complain about Goyf. Is it really that surprising that the format is power creeping? We went from D4 mechanics to using Ad Nausuem. Everything has gotten significantly more competitive. Its not like the format is unbalanced. Its just getting slowly faster. I think that the curve is coming to its peak though. The format can't get much faster than it already is without being called Vintage.

My question is, what could WoTC do to slow down the format? Clearly they are great at speeding it up.

[DrJones]

The format isn't getting faster, it's adapting to its environment. I think the format would become slower if DCI restored the old time limit for each round, because right now decks like Lands, Death n Taxes, Landstill, and White Stax are punished if they face another control deck. My brother went to GP Madrid with Death and Taxes and he just couldn't make day two for having so many games drawn (that he would have won) due to time limits. It didn't help him that GP Madrid had so many delays due to excessive participation, either.

[Vacrix]

I can see that happening. Death and Taxes isn't particularly fast. In my experience, though, games against control don't go to time that often, they are just long. Maybe your brother and his opponent just weren't playing that quickly? Or maybe I play too fast. :P

What would the time limit be raised to then for these decks to be competitive again? If you make the rounds even a little bit longer, in big tournaments with a lot of rounds become significantly longer. I'm not sure they will do that just because a few guys play those decks, even though I agree that something has to change. The other option is to give those decks something that can end the game more quickly. At least in the case of White Stax, Baneslayer doesn't look that bad.

[mujadaddy]

This is a very good thread.

[space reserved]

[The Source: Your Source for Free Parking]

[from Cairo]

My question is, what could WoTC do to slow down the format? Clearly they are great at speeding it up.

Hopefully we see some more interesting 3-5cc stuff being printed. Like what 4eak was saying about the average cmc being 1.4, it seems like all the most powerful cards are 1-2cc then there's a huge gap and some 5-10cc stuff that have alternate cc or ways to be put into play

[dahcmai]

I ended up having the problem of drawing too much due to time in GP Chicago and was so annoyed because I took a damned good deck, but it was just too slow to kill someone when they played slow. I had to call judges over and over when people started realizing I couldn't kill quickly and would purposely play slow. I wish they would allow for some more time in rounds. If anything, I would kill for a damned lunch break. It's so hard to even get that in if you are playing something like Landstill.


As for power creep, I do like the fact we finally are getting some nice blue creatures. When is the last time you saw a 4/4 flyer in blue for less than 5 mana? M11 gives us one for 4, that doesn't even have a drawback. Not only that, it's got a useful ability on top? Nice. I'm not arguing with that. Long way from Illusionary forces we have come.

I do kind of wish they would level off a little, but they really can't or else we just start getting the same stuff under a different name over and over.