What if Tarmogoyf were blue?

[02Drop]

It's just a theoretical question, obviously, but consider if it were the case. If Goyf were blue, would this make it better, worse, not not noticeably change it either way? Consider all the formats Goyf is legal in when answering, but by all means focus most of your answer on Legacy. My friend posed the question, and argued it'd be weaker as Zoo's mana base would get stretched. I made the case that "splash green for Goyf" was an option and a common strategy when he was legal in Standard, and for half that time shocklands weren't even an option, and fetches never were. So, in Extended, Legacy and Vintage where shocks and/or duals, as well as fetches are an option, the mana base has even more luxury for stretching and splashing.

Him being blue would also offer more interesting interactions. He can now be killed by REB. He can now be pitched to FoW.

But, consider that question. What's your take on it?

[Nessaja]

Just so I'm sure about what you're asking; "What if Tarmogoyf would be the strongest color in magic instead of a color with a much lower powerlevel"

Tarmogoyf in itsself would be much stronger and at the same time it would cause many decks that aren't inherently blue to stretch their manabase to include it (loam, zoo). It wouldn't be a bad thing for those decks though.

[troopatroop]

Counter-Top and Merfolk rein supreme. The end.

[DuxDucis]

Is this really going to happen again?

Down with Tarmogoyf threads!

[Cabal_chan]

If Goyf were blue then people might pitch it to FoW which would be the wrong play.

[tsabo_tavoc]

JusTarmogoyf in itsself would be much stronger and at the same time it would cause many decks that aren't inherently blue to stretch their manabase to include it (loam, zoo). It wouldn't be a bad thing for those decks though.

Then, TarmoUoyf can be safely banned.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

5cc Zoo would be the strategy of choice, but I think it's better than regular Zoo anyway.

Goblins would be a lot better because suddenly Piledriver is plowing through your best blocker.

"Thresh" lists would probably be displaced completely by w/b/u lists.

[QQQ]

"Thresh" lists would probably be displaced completely by w/b/u lists.

I'm not so certain of this. While these are obviously stronger colors, these decks pretty much require Grip to compete in the face of opposing CB/Top decks. It also saves SB slots in other match-ups.

[Nihil Credo]

I'm not so certain of this. While these are obviously stronger colors, these decks pretty much require Grip to compete in the face of opposing CB/Top decks. It also saves SB slots in other match-ups.

You can get away with just one Tropical Island for an anti-CB and anti-Humility sideboard card, rather than the full set you want for your primary defence and win condition.

[QQQ]

You can get away with just one Tropical Island for an anti-CB and anti-Humility sideboard card, rather than the full set you want for your primary defence and win condition.

For those purposes, yes. But these decks run a full set of Grips for it's universal applicability. For instance, it's the only chance they have in the DS/Stax type matches. And a single Trop probably wouldn't cut it there. And although these are corner-cases, it would be worrisome to completely give up on winning them. So they would need a replacement, which cuts other SB options.

[(nameless one)]

Legacy would somehow be different. Zoo would be less effective, Goblins wouldn't lose it's dominance, Countertop would still be hated, and U/B based combo-control decks would have a back up win-con. And Merfolks wouldn't need to splash green for them.

[johanessen]

Natural Order would be worst, and Perish wouldn't saw any play.

[majikal]

What are you talking about? Tarmogoyf IS blue. It just looks green to the uninitiated.

[Rizso]

If Tarmogoyf would be blue i wouldnt play Tarmogoyf in the zoo deck. Not worth stretching the manabase for it.

[(nameless one)]

If Tarmogoyf would be blue i wouldnt play Tarmogoyf in the zoo deck. Not worth stretching the manabase for it.

Would creatures like Werebear and Mongrel actually see play if Goyfs were actually blue?

[Rizso]

I wouldnt play them :P If i would go for some other 2 cc dropp that would probly be Plated Geopede or Jötun Grunts

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Decks splash Green for creatures and Grips, primarily. But if the best creature were green, there'd be little to pull you into green. I'd much rather play Seal of Cleansing than splash a fourth color just for Grip.

[Amon Amarth]

REB and Pyro would see significantly more play.

[Meekrab]

If Tarmogoyf were blue it would cost 3UU because WotC hates blue creatures, thus it would be bad and not played anywhere but Standard.

[puppektion]

REB and Pyro would see significantly more play.

Tempo Thresh could get away with being UR. Like really, would "thresh" even need green?

[kicks_422]

At least he didn't ask if Tarmogoyf were white or black. Racial puns would be all over the thread by now.

[Some Guy]

well then what if he was red and cost RR. I would love to see that.

[Vacrix]

Merfolk would really like having a 1U Goyf. Its not really a blue flavor though. The original Lhurgoyf was green.

Now what if Goyf were black? Black aggro variants would have a field day.

[MMogg]

Its not really a blue flavor though. The original Lhurgoyf was green.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=29931&type=card

Remember, each colour got its own Lhurgoyf.

[ddt15]

If Tarmogoyf were blue, merfolk would be alot more expensive deck to build.

[(nameless one)]

Tempo Thresh could get away with being UR. Like really, would "thresh" even need green?

But wasn't Nimble Mongoose the "centerpiece" of Tempo Thresh before Goyf ever saw print?

[puppektion]

But wasn't Nimble Mongoose the "centerpiece" of Tempo Thresh before Goyf ever saw print?

It was Nimble Mongoose and Werebear.

By this point, the deck would be UR with green for mongoose? Would you even be able to justify a green splash for just mongoose? I know I personally cut mongoose for Lavamancer, but that's because we had a merfolk/faerie problem by me.

[DragoFireheart]

If Tarmogoyf was blue...


- Zoo would be much weaker if it wanted to splash blue for Tarmogoyf.

- Numerous non-blue decks would be much weaker.

- Merfolk would be much more powerful.

- Countertop would be about the same.

- Goblin Piledriver would get a lot more expensive.

- Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast would see more play.

- Island dual lands would become significantly more expensive.

[quadibloc]

If Goyf were blue, would this make it better, worse, not not noticeably change it either way?Well, you are asking if the card itself would be stronger or weaker. It would still require the same CMC and the same amount of colored mana. So the card itself wouldn't be any stronger.

The problem is instead with the card's context.

The card is a very strong and undercosted creature - by the standards of the creatures found in Green. Green is a color whose strength is its efficient creatures.

Blue, on the other hand, is a very strong color... with nearly the weakest creatures of any color. Well, it does have creatures with flying, and it doesn't tend to have creatures with really bad drawbacks, like black.

So if just about the most amazingly efficient creature ever showed up in Blue, in addition to the things that Blue already has - well, it would just totally unbalance the game in favor of Blue. There would be little point playing the other four colors, except in combination with Blue, the super color.

[Arrowni]

And Red, the color super-hating blue.

[SpeedOfDark]

If Goyf were blue then people might pitch it to FoW which would be the wrong play.

olololololol.

@ thread: If goyf were blue, legacy might actually be stagnant as a format, and then I would have to either burn my magic cards or play standard... the former being the preferred option.

[Ch@os]

Then he would pitch to Force of Will :tongue:

[Puzzle]

If Tarmogoyf was blue, FoW would be pink.
What's the point of that question ?

[practical joke]

If goyf were blue I'll be selling mine as a misprint.

[LOurs]

Well, it would be pretty unfair ... but if it was the case, I think we would see many more back to basics as a mono U aggro control would be more consistent builds

[Arrowni]

What if FoW was Red? At least that was close to happen.

[Skeggi]

If Tarmogoyf were blue, it would still not be a good addition for UW Tempo.



Congratulations! You've earned the first of hopefully few bannings due to your persistence in trolling the UW Tempo deck. You can come back when you've learned that I'M NOT KIDDING. THIS SHIT IS OVER AND DONE WITH.

[quadibloc]

If goyf were blue, legacy might actually be stagnant as a format, and then I would have to either burn my magic cards or play standard... the former being the preferred option.Or, to put it even more plainly...

If Tarmogoyf had been a blue card in Time Spiral, then the Power Nine - or at least Mana Drain - would have been subsequently reprinted in Tenth Edition.

Because both events would have been the result of Magic R&D having met a tragic fate.

[Glorfindel]

If goyf were blue I'll be selling mine as a misprint.
Wizards never prints green cards as blue or the other way around, do they?
*cough*Hurricane, Serendib Efreet*cough*

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Simplest answer;

Between Brainstorm, Tarmogoyf, Daze and Force of Will, there would be zero reason to play other colors.

80% of decks would be the above cards and some other shit thrown in. The remaining 20% would be Goblins maindecking REB and Pyroblast.

[Vacrix]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=29931&type=card

Remember, each colour got its own Lhurgoyf.

Sure. I was going to mention that but it seemed unnecessary. They derived that cycle from the original, which was green.