R/u Pump Slap

[Galrael]

This is just kind of a crazy idea I came up with after seeing a couple threads floating around about kiln fiend and after seeing a standard deck based around this idea. Heres the list and some thought.

4 Writ of Passage
4 Kiln Fiend *
4 Wee Dragonauts
4 Surrakar Spellblade

4 Volcanic*Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Red fetchland
3 Blue Fetchland
3 Mountain
3 Island
4 Wasteland*

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder*
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Reckless Charge
4 Daze*
4 Spell Pierce
3 Manamorphose

Ok so I realize that this is probably not the most optimal build I could come up with for this but I am fairly new to legacy. In fact the reason I'm posting it here is to get ideas from this great pool of deckbuilders and players. So here are some reasonings and explainations for my card choices.

Writ of Passage is an odd choice I know but with your 3 pump creatures all with power less than 2 you can reveal this to make them unblockable then attack and before the damage is done cast however many instants you can. This is a slot I'm unsure of.

Kiln Fiend is your big beater. He loves to nom on those instants for big bonuses and can be dug for with brainstorm and ponder.

Wee Dragonauts is your evasive beater also likes to see those instants and burn spells. He can get big and fly over blockers.

Surrakar Spellblade is your draw engine plus a little extra damage. He can use writ to get some free card drawn until he gets burned or removed.

Pretty basic land package. Fetches, Waste, enough basics. I went with 24 because of the decent casting costs of my main threats. But I feel that this could be tweaked.

Brainstorm and Ponder dig for you threats, burn, lands or whatever you need. Debating the number of these as well. These can also pump your creatures so cast em when they matter.

Burn and Reckless Charge. Burn helps remove blockers or hits to the dome for some extra damage. Reckless Charge is a double pump plus haste for your beaters or extra damge for your draw engine.

I threw in Spell Pierce and Daze but these are a questionable slot. I feel like I'm running enough blue for FoW but I'm not sure I would wanna pitch pump to it and my biggest worries are early racing creatures and removal. So these two spells help with that.

Sideboard I'm still thinking about I'm thinking REB and BEB in some combo. Maybe some instant speed bounce like echoing truth and some graveyard hate.

I'm looking for any comments people might have on how to improve this deck or if it's just a hopeless wish.

I'm also debating adding a Countertop suite to this instead of the counter suite.

[Meekrab]

I hate playing decks that pack it up and die to Iona naming one color. Throw some Snap in there. Added bonus, they remove blockers while pumping your midgets.

[Galrael]

Snap is interesting cause I could use it to mana fix after casting a different spell. I'll move some stuff around see how it works.

[junkdiver]

I can't really see a reason not to run Force of Will? It really has proven it's worth the card in hand by now ;)

The deck doesn't seem to be too bad, but what you need to really ask before spending too much time on it is:
What does it have over other aggro control decks? Is this a new option that can have some pros over other AC decks or is it strictly a worse option in any scenario that matters?

The obvious deck to compare it to would be threshold, and specifically canadian thresh, which has direct damage and counters and little creatures similar to this deck. Not to say: Is this deck strictly better than thresh? It probably isn't ;) but you could ask: Does this deck have something that thresh does not, and could it be a viable option in metagame "blah"?

I think the deck is interesting, it is sort of a UR fish deck.

The manamorphose can come out for force of wills. The spell pierces seem fine to me, but are kind of questionable maindeck, at least a full 4. I think the deck could maybe benefit from Aether vial if you tweak the creature base (by adding some more creatures, like maybe grim lavamancer instead of Writ of passage etc). It would Allow you to keep mana open for the sorceries/instants you need to cast to pump your d00ds.

I think the decks biggest struggle will be the d00d to spell ratio. Overall I am not sure if it will be more effective than just playing Merfolk or Thresh, but I think you would probably have a good merfolk matchup, and a decent goblins matchup with all the burn.

[Galrael]

Junkdiver thank you for the well thought out response. I agree that FoW I stead of manamorphose would probably be a good plan. Also I feel like if that was the case I'd take out the spell pierce MD. Grim Lavamancer would be nice for burning out blockers and damage to the face. Vial could def be a viable choice and I'll test that, not sure what creatures to add though. I feel like in my heavy agro meta this could be a viable choice for a deck and I like the fun factor of it. I appreciate your comments and will def take them to heart when I think about how to play around with this during testing.

[DragoFireheart]

I've been trying to make a viable U/R aggro deck for the longest time and now I believe is the time to consider our options.

Kiln Wee


Deck Objective: Get a Kiln or a Wee out, use cantrips and other spells to pump it up, use some disruption to stall the opponent and then smash them to hell with your super pumped creature.

Creatures:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Wee Dragonauts

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
2 Distortion Strike
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Manamorphose
4 Ponder
2 Snap

Lands:
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island



Allow me to explain some of the cards:

Kiln Fiend / Wee Dragonauts: The idea behind this deck is to cast these common creatures and then smash your opponent by chaining a large number of spells. It's easy to pump these guys up by large amounts to utterly crush your opponents.

Grim Lavamancer: The amount of spells going into the yard will feed him. You can combine his ping ability along with a bolt or a Fire to kill larger creatures. He's also amazing for fighting tribal matchups.

Ponder/Brainstorm: These serve two purposes: to find you Kiln Fiends/Wees and to power them up. Casting a Manamorphose into a brainstorm into a lightning bolt is not an unreal situation: this will boost your Kiln and Wee by 9 and 6 power respectively.

Distortion Strike: This acts as a means to allow our Kiln Fiend to sneak past opposing creatures and smash them for two turns of unchallenged strikes. The fact that it rebounds means that unless your opponent counters the spell or kills the fiend, you will get 10 damage within a couple turns. This can also be pitched to FoW.


Lightning Bolt: Ditto.

Fire/Ice: The fire side can provide extra damage to kill weaker creatures or give you extra reach. The ice side can tap out blockers and allow your fiend to smash for large amounts of damage.

Manamorphose: This serves a few purposes. First, it gives you fuel for your Grim Lavamancer. Second, it pumps up your Kiln and Wee for free (and potentially allowing you to get other spells to pump them up). Finally, it can also work as a deck thinner, allowing you to find your business spells quicker. It also acts as a color fixer if your opponent tries to deny you blue mana.

Force of Will: Along with cantrips, this is the other reason to combine the powers of flame and frost into a unique aggro deck. This will allow you to counter deadly spells (chalice, counterbalance).

Snap: A "free" spell that gets blockers out of the way and pumps up Kiln and Wee for "free". I say free in quotation because if the spell is countered, you don't get to untap lands. This is also a maindeck answer for Reanimator creatures.

Spell Pierce: I decided to add two of these as a means to help this deck counter removal targetting our kilns and wees. I took out a couple strikes to make room for them.

[Galrael]

Dragofireheart I really like your list. The addition of fire//ice ala Canadian thresh is a good pick as well as Distortion strike ( it's definately better than Writ. I don't know why but I have a deep need to try to fit surrakar spellblade into this deck though after looking at your list I feel like your choices might be better. I'll say that I def want manamorphose in here now that you highlighted it's ability to pump like that I feel like it's a definate 4 of. Keep the ideas coming i'd love to see more great posts like these.

[Galrael]

Dragofireheart I really like your list. The addition of fire//ice ala Canadian thresh is a good pick as well as Distortion strike ( it's definately better than Writ. I don't know why but I have a deep need to try to fit surrakar spellblade into this deck though after looking at your list I feel like your choices might be better. I'll say that I def want manamorphose in here now that you highlighted it's ability to pump like that I feel like it's a definate 4 of. Keep the ideas coming i'd love to see more great posts like these.

[kicks_422]

DragoFireheart, is 4 Force of Will really enough to protect your guys? In my initial sketches with UR decks abusing Kiln Fiend and Wee Dragonauts, protecting the guys have always been an issue.

[Willoe]

Why hasn't anyone suggested Double Cleave yet? I play it in Pauper, and it's really insane. Removing their blockers with bolts and Chain Lightning then playing a Double Cleave (1RRR spent) to deal 20 damage with or without counterbackup is just nuts.

I think it would be better than Distortion Strike even though that looks good (which means: creature pump sucks, but this is good creature pump in this deck = not so bad) as well.

Asides from this, would Kiln Fiend fit into a more spell-oriented Thresh list? Two cantrips would equal smashing for seven, and I think it would really give the opponents a creature to answer in like two turns or die. I know Kiln Fiend is conditional and perhaps suboptimal, but consider the possibilities: Kiln Fiend + Seething Anger + Double Cleave = 20 damage. And that's monored and only 3 spells - however, each of those spells suck in a vacuum so I doubt the viability of this little cute three-card combo.

[Poron]

your creatures haven't Shroud nor First Attack. It's way too easy to chump block or just to kill them

[Willoe]

your creatures haven't Shroud nor First Attack. It's way too easy to chump block or just to kill them

Unless you're playing against Goblins or "real" aggro, it shouldn't be a problem to toast their dudes instead of relying on evasion. But when playing against Tarmogoyfs, Tombstalkers, Dreadnoughts etc., actual removal might suit the deck better than loads of burn. A maindecked playset of Path to Exile wouldn't suck that bad, I believe. Also because Kiln Fiend adds Seething Anger effect to all of your spells.

[Cire]

Double Cleave has been mentioned as a potential card to speed up the deck to a third turn goldfish, but how about Quiet Speculation into 3 Lava darts? (3 damage + 12 pump to Kiln and 8 pump to Wee) Yeah it's a very all or nothing move, but lets face it, this deck will never be consistent in the face of zoo, thresh, ant and the like and the only things going for it are its cheapness, novelty and speed.

[DragoFireheart]

DragoFireheart, is 4 Force of Will really enough to protect your guys? In my initial sketches with UR decks abusing Kiln Fiend and Wee Dragonauts, protecting the guys have always been an issue.

Probably not, but this is only a draft. A lot of fine tuning is needed.

[DragoFireheart]

Double Cleave has been mentioned as a potential card to speed up the deck to a third turn goldfish, but how about Quiet Speculation into 3 Lava darts? (3 damage + 12 pump to Kiln and 8 pump to Wee) Yeah it's a very all or nothing move, but lets face it, this deck will never be consistent in the face of zoo, thresh, ant and the like and the only things going for it are its cheapness, novelty and speed.

I'd rather run Fireblast if more explosive power is what you want. At least Fireblast is good on it's own.

As for Double Cleave, the problem is that it's not a good stand alone card. At least with Distortion Strike you can hold it for FoW.


I'm thinking about taking some stuff out for counters, though I'm not sure if that is a good plan since this deck wants some consistency and explosive power. I disagree that this deck can not be as consistent as other decks since it runs morphose, BS and Ponder to quickly cantrip to better stuff.

[kicks_422]

The deck really wants to stay as proactive as possible, not reactive, as you want to pump up your guys. Waiting for your opponent to do something before they get bigger takes a lot of the explosiveness away. I'm not saying not to run counterspells (though my build doesn't run any), but they should be kept at a minimum.

As for Double Cleave - I also don't run it because it requires a Fiend or Dragonaut in play. I'm not really a fan of running cards that work that way. That's why I've dropped, though it's very explosive, Reckless Charge.

Also, I've been trying out Isochron Scepter. Spells cast with it still pump the guys up, right? It also provides staying power, as the deck has the huge liability of possibly running out of gas.

[DragoFireheart]

The only maindeck counter spells I would consider are FoW, Daze and Spell Pierce. I do agree that we need to keep the deck proactive.

I wonder if there is room for a Fireblast or two?

[sunshine]

Might be horrible but a green splash for Stonewood Invocation or Vines of Vastwood just seems really tempting. They would essentially fill the permission role in all cases other than for stopping mass removal. The fact that your "permission" would require mana is offset by the added pump. Invocation might justify Rite of Flame fitting in somewhere, which isn't horrible anyway.

One Invocation beefs a lone Dagonauts to an 8/8 flier - possibly countering an opponents StP/PtE in the process. Keep in mind when analyzing the card that while it costs 4 mana it will never have to play around Daze.

[Draener]

I was actually testing out a RUW deck that is very similar to the deck that you built.

Decklist:

Scalding Tarn x4
Arid Mesa x4
Flooded Strand x4
Tundra x3
Plateau x3
Volcanic Island x3

Kiln Fiend x4
Steppe Lynx x4
Wee Dragonauts x4
Vendillion Clique x2

Lightning Bolt x4
Brainstorm x4
Emerge Unscathed x4
Chain Lightning x4
Ponder x4
Lightning Helix x3
Fire and Ice x2

I think white adds alot in the form of Steppe lynx which can easily get in for 8, lightning helix to improve your aggro matchup, and emerge unscathed to protect your dudes and send them in unblockable next turn.

Vendillion clique has also been awesome at closing the deal.

[Skeggi]

Steppe Lynx grows +2 for 1cmc, Kiln Fiend grows +3 for 2cmc. Isn't Wee Dragonauts extremely underachieving with a mere +2 at 3cmc? With all that stuff that has to go to your graveyard, wouldn't Grim Lavamancer be alot better than Wee Dragonauts?

[Draener]

It's true that he's not the best beater in the deck, but the options are pretty limited. The evasion also helps more than you would expect. A 5/3 in the air is often times better than a 10/2 on the ground. That said, I would give some strong consideration to cutting him down to a 2 of or less if a strong alternative could be suggested.

[Skeggi]

I think you should try Grim Lavamancer. Also, why no Path to Exile?

[Draener]

I actually had 4 paths in the dragonaugts spot prior to posting this. I admit I only test 2 or 3 rounds with the naugts in there, and was probably thinking of adding them back. Perhaps a 2/2 split lavamancer. I was also considering figure of destiny, but the mana you pump into him is probably too much for this deck.

[Galrael]

I agree that Grim lavamancer is a top consideration for this deck. I'm quite sure that I want to keep dragonauts in as evasion is king for me. Lavamancer def adds some nice plays for us.

[kinda]

I'd splash green for berserk and tarmo md and krosan grip in the board. Surrakar seems underwhelming to me...

[DragoFireheart]

I was actually testing out a RUW deck that is very similar to the deck that you built.

Decklist:

Scalding Tarn x4
Arid Mesa x4
Flooded Strand x4
Tundra x3
Plateau x3
Volcanic Island x3

Kiln Fiend x4
Steppe Lynx x4
Wee Dragonauts x4
Vendillion Clique x2

Lightning Bolt x4
Brainstorm x4
Emerge Unscathed x4
Chain Lightning x4
Ponder x4
Lightning Helix x3
Fire and Ice x2

I think white adds alot in the form of Steppe lynx which can easily get in for 8, lightning helix to improve your aggro matchup, and emerge unscathed to protect your dudes and send them in unblockable next turn.

Vendillion clique has also been awesome at closing the deal.

I think Swords would be a better choice than Emerge if you are splashing white since removing their creatures permenently so a klin can swing instead of protecting yours for a turn or two is a better idea.

I also think the lack of Grim Lavamancer and Manamorphse is a bad idea: the former allows us to crush tribal dekcs while the later will boost Kilns and feed grims.





Steppe Lynx grows +2 for 1cmc, Kiln Fiend grows +3 for 2cmc. Isn't Wee Dragonauts extremely underachieving with a mere +2 at 3cmc? With all that stuff that has to go to your graveyard, wouldn't Grim Lavamancer be alot better than Wee Dragonauts?

Wee may get a smaller boost, but they also fly, which allows them to smash face while avoding ground forces (Gofys, Cats, Goblins).

Alternatively, you could add a Vendilion Clique or two.

[DragoFireheart]

There is a lot more potential for a U/R aggro deck then some might be giving credit for. I'm going to continue to look for an optimal build. I want to avoid splashing for a 3rd color since it weakens the mana base, but if a third color would benefit this deck we need to see if Black, Green or White would be the best choice.

[Draener]

Before ruling out emerge unscathed, you should test it out. The ability to save your critters and rebound the next turn to push it through is really quite awesome. The card also triggers Kiln fiend twice, which while not the most important is quite often a nice bonus. If we were going to include any of white's removal, it almost certainly should be path to not go against trying to burn your opponent out.

[NihilObstat]

I love this kind of builds, and I've always wanted to come up with a nice U/R deck, which are colors that Wirzards just seems to not like matching up ^^

The build is really fun, and interesting, but if we really would like to see it out of casual legacy, shouldn't we really work a lot harder in defending our creatures. As Draener says, Emerge unscratched looks good, and Vines of vastwood should also be considered.

So my worries are, are we ever gonna be able to see such a fun R/U, not R/U/X, thing working??

[Lurker101]

What about Gelectrode for reusable pinging, throw some curiositys on them and you've got a draw engine. That might be more of an idea for casual though but I think it might be better than Spellblade.

[Vacrix]

I like the concept a lot. Its like a slower Berserk Stompy that sets up for the kill. In that case, you might want to try Mystical Tutor or Merchant's Scroll to help you set up. Another card to consider is Magma Jet. It kills Bears like Cannonist and allows you to Scry to set up. Also, Lava Dart is awesome; I played it in a Casual Mono-Red storm deck a while back and it won me games.

Helix is bad. It cost 2. You want most of your spells to cost 1 so you can fit more into the same turn.

[Oiolosse]

I will second the testing of curiosity. I was toying around with R/U about a year ago and it was super fun to play. It was a bit slow for legacy (this was before I was 'into' legacy (these boards) so I was not as optimal) and played in multiplayer, so Niv Mizzet was in there with curiosity.

I can say that throwing curiosity on a gelectrode is super awesome. Ping, draw, lightning bolt, ping, draw, chain lightning, Ping draw. Three cards and nine damage for two red mana is fun. I also ran forks, psionic blasts and eletrolyze (which I don't recommend..fun for casual, slow for legacy).

I think grim lavamancer needs testing, he is awesome.

Another card I've played with but don't see too often is Furnace of Rath. Drop it, if you can survive the turn then next turn is gg. Fireblasting fork shenanigans is so much fun :)

[NihilObstat]

I have been testing the deck on MWS, and so far I can say that:

4x Grim Lavamancer is an auto include, he will be our finisher many times, when we can't reach their total lifes in one swing. Plus we always end up with more than 10 cards in graveyard to remove.

4 or 3x Magma Jet is awesome. We get to burn their face, of destroy a bear or chump blocker like Vacrix said, and we get to put the following 2 lands we were gonna draw in the bottom of the deck. What can be better than that ^^ I think it's awesome.

I also believe, as others said, that we need to keep proactive and not reactive. That's why even though Snap is awesome, it has also made me loose 2 games so far, since it can't be played without a legal target, and we don't want to target our own creature do we? hehe Fire/Ice is more consitant but it does cost 2 mana which is a lot, so I dunno. Maybe play Snap only at sideboard ??

And Fow is awesome at protecting our creatures, but only 4 cards don't really seem enough. More counters? 3rd color splash for Emerge Uncharted or Vines of Vastwood??

Also an uncountered Trinisphere kills us bad. We definitely need some Artifact destroy sideboard.

[DragoFireheart]

I suggest that the thread maker of this thread close it and everyone focus their attention to:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17532-Heavy-Machine-Gun-%28R-U-Aggro-Combo%29

Having both threads is somewhat redundant and the opening post in the other topic is a bit more detailed on U/R aggro.