Counter Burn

[Scrabble]

The concept is to control the game until you get your burn online. Arc Blades and Punishing Fire stack for recurring removal or a wincon and act as CA in matches taking the place of standard draw. Propaganda's, EE's, and StP are all stalls until you start rolling and the counters provide the backup.

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm

4 Arc Blade
3 Punishing Fire
4 Propaganda
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle

4 Grove of the Burn Willows
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap

The SB takes care of the Combo matchup and reanimator. Zoo should get rolled maindeck anyways, but the Chalices would be sided in there as well. I've gone 27-0 vs. merfolk, dredge, and thresh. This deck is really good :wink: Criticism and critique are very much welcomed. I'll never be able to actually make this deck but MWS, you're mine.

[DragoFireheart]

Even with the sideboard, combo will curb stomp the shit out of this deck.

[Scrabble]

Speak your mind and tell me how? 8 SB answers plus 8 relevant counterspells?
If it's due to the clock then the goal is to land a Chalice and protect it, then it's gg

[DragoFireheart]

Speak your mind and tell me how? 8 SB answers plus 8 relevant counterspells?
If it's due to the clock then the goal is to land a Chalice and protect it, then it's gg

Lets assume you lose game one since your clock is too slow to stop them and you lack Counter-Top to lock them out.

(Speaking of which: why not run counter-balance?)

Said combo decks will have counters themselves or other means of disruption like discard, so you get in a counter war with them. For chalice, they only need a single Echoing Truth to clear the field. For Mindbreak Trap, they will cast discard before going off. If you counter their discard or bounce then they will just wait since your clock is so slow they can take the time to do so.

[kinda]

27-0 huh? Needs didgeridoo so the deck can combo out i think...

[DragoFireheart]

27-0 huh? Needs didgeridoo so the deck can combo out i think...

That is quite impressive. Usually counter burn doesn't handle aggro decks that well.

What can you (Topic Creator) tell us about how this deck handles those matchups you mentioned?

[Combo Winter]

You wanna run intuition+ punishing fire+ forbid. As the forbid lock was the basis of old school counter burn. Also arcblade is terrible and there is no need to splash white. I would add some new jace as well. also you lack a real card advantage engine so i added loam which futher backs up the forbid lock.
here are my cuts:

4 Propaganda
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
4 arc blade
1 sphinx
2 daze

additions
3 forbid
2 new jace
4 lightning bolt
3 intuition
4 goyf
1 loam
1 acadmy ruins

[Scrabble]

27-0 was a little high of an initial estimate I think. Just a little bit though

Merfolk looks like it would rock this list as is. I think I'd need to fit 4 Firespouts in the SB to really make that a winnable matchup.
Dredge has edge game 1 but a propaganda could seal it, and games 2 and three with boarding we should win. Thresh and that whole deal I'd call winnable too. As you can tell these are time tested results that should be taken as law.

DragoFireheart, I think you're right about counterbalance. That's actually exactly what I was looking for when drafting up a list- something to lock them out while the burn does its work. That would shore up the combo matchup for sure, and probably even make zoo a little easier.

And @ Combo Winter- Forbid + Intuition lock looks good too. I'd think to shy away from the loam deal I think and even the new Jace as the early game is where I'm gonna have problems, and that's where Jace is most vulnerable.
I'm also not sold on getting rid of the arc blades. I mean I've never tested the list and probably won't get to. But in theory they seem like solid cards. Especially with recurring Fire's as well as they double up to kill basically any creature other than Prog/Iona/tarmo sometimes. That, and once the opponent is put in a soft lock or a stall via Propaganda's or the Counterbalances (I'm glad you pointed this out Drago) you can basically do whatever else you want with your mana while the creatures are burned out or you start going to the dome.

So things that need in:
4 Tarmo (eh)
2 Counterbalance
3-4 Tops
3 Intuition
3 Forbid

I'm almost thinking that the intuition's aren't necessary though.

Here's what will go most likely:
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
1 Sphinx
1 StP

Without the intuitions that leaves a 61 card list which I've always been of fan of.

Please do discuss those Arc Blades though, I'd really like to hear some opinions on them. They play a very similar role to the Punishing Fire's honestly- they just do the job cheaper. Thanks for the responses guys


EDIT: Did I really forget to type in the Didgeridoo in the first list? I can tell why you didn't believe the 27-0.. silly mistake

[DragoFireheart]

Why are you getting rid of Brainstorms?

[Jon Stewart]

You know what would help this deck...

Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind

It's extremely powerful with Brainstorm, or with anything else really. It can pick off a 2/2 each turn.


And the best part, it's an instant win combo with

Curiosity

If I were to ever play a controllish blue/red, it would be in order to play this combo.

Also, Grim Lavamancer is excellent in controllish decks and also works well with Curiosity.

Even Vulshok Sorcerer isn't horrible.

With all those pingers (that all work great with Curiosity by the way), you can pick off 1/1s, 2/2s and 3/3s like crazy, and save your Swords only for the really big creatures.

As for what to cut. Punishing Fire is crap. And even Daze is really crappy in any slow controllish deck like this one.

[Scrabble]

Why are you getting rid of Brainstorms?

Lack of room and the Tops play the same role.


I forget to address why there's white because it does seem rather superfluous. It was originally because I needed another source of lifegain for the opponent to really make the Fire's effective. I also thought about just going green instead with crop rotation + crucible + wasteland lock because that would reliably let me get the Grove of Burnwillows when I needed them. Also with the explosives in there to answer early threats I needed some form of white mana anyhow. I could see cutting white but probably only for crop rotations.


As for the pingers- While they do look fun (used to have a casual pinger deck.. didn't everybody) but they seem waaaay too slow. That Firemind + Curiosity combo is really interesting and something I've never seen before, but it seems really fragile. I'd only maybe run it if I ran a bunch of other subpar cards to get use out of the curiosities but then I'm just diluting the deck. In a meta where StP and PtE's are so prevalent, 6 mana for a creature without shroud isn't realistic, unless it's gonna win you the game basically on the spot. Plase do post a list if you've got something in mind, but for what I'm thinking it's too slow and fragile.

You probably are right about the dazes. I do run them in MUC with Chalices but otherwise the tempo loss is too great. The punishing fires however are actually solid as they combo with the Groves to give you recurring shocks and also provide a Forbid lock as Combo Winter suggested.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Lack of room and the Tops play the same role.

Not really though, you can look at the top 3 cards and abuse fetchlands but you can't hide cards to manipulate your hand like you can with Brainstorm, and SDT doesn't pitch to FoW in a bind. You prolly don't want to pitch Propaganda, Intuit, or Counterbalance to FoW... your best pitch to FoW at that point is another FoW! :P

[Combo Winter]

I see no reason to run arc blade over isochron scepterif you really wanna go the rucurring burn route. Also @ jonstewert. Why would you try to kill with a 7 mana combo you could just run a deck that makes all spot removal dead. Also punishing fire+ intuition is quite strong an interaction. Also lol at grimlavamancer in a control deck.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I see no reason to run arc blade over isochron scepterif you really wanna go the rucurring burn route. Also @ jonstewert. Why would you try to kill with a 7 mana combo you could just run a deck that makes all spot removal dead. Also punishing fire+ intuition is quite strong an interaction. Also lol at grimlavamancer in a control deck.

I agree, the suspend 3... 4 turns is a lifetime in Legacy, yay 2 damage.

I disagree about Intuition --> Punishing Fire being such a strong interaction... for one, you rely on StP alone to get them back, so now you got these cards sitting in your yard and you're waiting on this card to recur them. At the time you play Swords though... you gotta keep :r::r::r: open to even recur them, and looking at the mana base that doesn't even look realistic. This whole idea seems really janky imo

I tend to agree with Jon, you're running a control-burn deck with card draw and burn elements, and what better than Niv Mizzet to punish people at that. At least run as a 1-of I'd say, I don't know where Curiosity would fit in, but I used to run Niv as a Reanimator tech and board in 3 Curiosity, that reanimator deck I've used 5x tourneys in the last year and I've gone exactly 3-1 every time, the combo works ^.~ Not to be skeptical, but I'm a little surprised at the wins that you say you had since the deck packs so very little "muscle", besides the original Sphinx it's like you're slowly just pecking them to death for 2 damage.

[Grollub]

I disagree about Intuition --> Punishing Fire being such a strong interaction... for one, you rely on StP alone to get them back, so now you got these cards sitting in your yard and you're waiting on this card to recur them. At the time you play Swords though... you gotta keep :r::r::r: open to even recur them, and looking at the mana base that doesn't even look realistic. This whole idea seems really janky imo


Grove recurs Punishing Fires like a champ all day long, it's totally a viable interaction.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Grove recurs Punishing Fires like a champ all day long, it's totally a viable interaction.

Oh I see. I had to look that one up, sorry I couldn't see it.

[Nelis]

Staggershock seems like a better alternative to Arc Blade. And the deck definitely needs countertop. 2 Daze seems very random, there must be better counterspells.