[Deck] Kithkin -WhiteWeenie

[gmeroni]

Hi guys, i need an huge help for my newest deck!...How can i improve this Kithkin WW deck?...

Deck: Untitled Deck (http://deckstats.net/deck-132414-1433537679ab79b39fdf8652c2b3bc0b-en.html)

4x Burrenton Forge-Tender (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Burrenton+Forge-Tender)
4x Preeminent Captain (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Preeminent+Captain)
4x Figure of Destiny (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Figure+of+Destiny)
2x Goldmeadow Stalwart (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Goldmeadow+Stalwart)
4x Knight of Meadowgrain (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Knight+of+Meadowgrain)
3x Wizened Cenn (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Wizened+Cenn)
2x Umezawa's Jitte (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Umezawa%27s+Jitte)
3x Spectral Procession (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Spectral+Procession)
2x Path to Exile (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Path+to+Exile)
4x Militia's Pride (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Militia%27s+Pride)
4x Honor of the Pure (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Honor+of+the+Pure)
12x Plains (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Plains)
4x Windbrisk Heights (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Windbrisk+Heights)
4x Windswept Heath (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Windswept+Heath)
2x Mutavault (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mutavault)
2x Ajani Goldmane (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ajani+Goldmane)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Elspeth%2C+Knight-Errant)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display Deck Statistics (http://deckstats.net/deck-132414-1433537679ab79b39fdf8652c2b3bc0b-en.html)


I play often with this decks:



2 BURN
1 Aggro Green
2 Burr (Black/Blu & BLack/BLu/White)
1 Beast all Black
1 tooth and nail
1 WHite/Red creature

[Genericcactus]

JItte, Path to Exile, Mutavault, and to a much lesser extent, Figure of Destiny are the only Legacy playable cards in that list. Check out the Death and Taxes forum.

[pingveno]

Read Preeminent Captain again, it doesn't do what you think it does.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I wouldn't knock BFT with Jitte vs. Zoo/Goblins so quickly. I would give this a chance before we start criticizing.

[Exospaciac]

If you want to go the Tribal WW route, I'd suggest either Soldiers or Kor. Kithkins just don't have enough going for them.

Soldiers have multiple Lord-type creatures (Veteran Swordsmith/Armorer, Field Marshal, Daru Warchief, Captain of the Watch) and both a Goblin lackey-type creature (Preeminent Captain) and a Goblin Ringleader of their own (Enlistment Officer). Plus, they have Deftblade Elite, which is great at picking off Noble Heirarchs and trading with other X/1s.

Kors have Stoneforge Mystic, which is insane. They also have Armament Master, which is also insane if it sticks. Almost all their guys rely on equipments, but even just a Jitte or SoFI-equipped Kor Duelist is a threat by itself. They also have Kor Hookmaster to tap down guys, Kor Sanctifiers to blow stuff up, and Kor Firewalker to help stem the bleeding against any red deck.

IMO, Kithkins are just outclassed in every way, except maybe for having access to FoD and BFT.

[Genericcactus]

I wouldn't knock BFT with Jitte vs. Zoo/Goblins so quickly. I would give this a chance before we start criticizing.

Death and Taxes plays (or has access to) Forgetender and Jitte, plus it plays Stoneforge Mystic. I just don't see any reason in playing tribal WW, you don't gain much at all. Aether Vial, combat tricks, and creatures that do things other than attack seem a lot better.

[the Thin White Duke]

Needs moar Aether Vial!! I'm not sold on Militia's Pride, it's good in limited but I'd replace it with Vials. Same with Spectral Procession, replace with more Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, or Oblivion Ring. As always the bane of WW is lack of draw, so I'd cut a Jitte for Sword of Fire and Ice or Mask of Memory. To echo the other posters, keeping tribal Kithkins is fine for casual play but if you want to get more competitive you have to branch out from a Kithkin only theme.
I do love me some WW though, have fun with the theme!

[SpeedOfDark]

As many have said, kithkin is still a suboptimal mono white build. However, if you have your heart set on it, here is what I would do:

Things you must lose:
- preeminent captain: he is slow, you have no bombs to drop, and he will get chump blocked and killed on his first attack.
- militia's pride: many better options available, very meh.
- some lands, you're probably fine with 18-20 if you play aether vial.

Things you must add:
- 4 aether vial
- 4 wizened cenn (you have 3 of them, go all the way!): this is the only 2 mana lord other than atlantis that I'm aware of.
- 4 Goldmeadow Harrier: read it as "W: tap target goyf"

Things you could lose:
- some of the planeswalkers, I would probably play just 1 elspeth, if even.
-spectral procession: good with jitte or honor of the pure or ajani, subpar by itself. Its not really a bad card, but it seems like its begging to be in a non-kithkin version of the deck.

Things you could add:
- cenn's heir: basically a shitty pile-driver. Note that if he attacks alone he is 2/2 for 2, and above that he just keeps getting better.
- Kinsbaile Borderguard: as long as you haven't been hit by a sweeper, this thing should be decently fat. In any case, it's more threatening than a preeminent captain.

[TsumiBand]

It could be entirely true that Kithkin are ass in Legacy, if for no other reason than not having enough Lords in the face of creature types like Merfolk and Soldiers. But I'm surprised to see people writing off Militia's Pride so quickly. This is a card can make shit just get ridiculous if left unanswered. Don't forget, it puts Kithkin Soldiers into play tapped and attacking; for this reason the right play is seldom to play it as soon as possible but to wait until it represents at least 1 - 2 immediate tokens.

Now maybe Kithkin can't abuse it like Soldiers potentially could; there's enough Soldier lords to reasonably make 3/3 and up guys. This has the effect of forcing bad creature trades as they try to slow down the token generation. Of all the cards in the Standard Kithkin deck, Militia's Pride was always one of the better ones, and it always felt like a stronger Goblin Lackey effect than Preeminent Captain ever did. If not in the Kithkin deck, I would urge people to try this card out.

[Genericcactus]

Of all the cards in the Standard Kithkin deck, Militia's Pride was always one of the better ones, and it always felt like a stronger Goblin Lackey effect than Preeminent Captain ever did. If not in the Kithkin deck, I would urge people to try this card out.

In Standard Kithkin, neither Preeminent Captain or Militia's Pride were played. The deck played 25 lands, and spread out, trying to take advantage of Windbrisk Heights. Heights just gets crushed in Legacy due to Wasteland, and cards like Spectral Procession and Cloudgoat Ranger don't make the cut. By the end, the only Kithkin the deck played were Wizened Cenn, Knight of the Meadowgrain, and Figure of Destiny.

The most interesting Kithkin seems to be Goldmeadow Harrier, tapping all big dudes (including Iona, Blazing Archon, and sphinx of the Steal Wind). Maybe he deserves a look in a different WW shell, but Kithkin don't provide enough bonuses.

[Jon Stewart]

Don't listen to the haters, Kithkins is a very strong deck and tribe. It's creatures have a ton of synergy, and white is a fantastic supplemental color for tribal creatures as well.

I play at a very competitive meta, tons of Bant, Countertop, Zoo, Merfolk and Quinn, and there was guy who brings a well developed well built Kithkin about once or twice and month and pretty much ALWAYS did great with the deck everytime he brought it.

White has a shitton of resilient and flexible cards to hate on tons of strategies. Stuff like Runed Halo naming Progenitus, Canonist and other anti hate.

Standard Kithkins aren't the perfect template for Legacy Kithkins because Standard was DOMINATED by tribes at the time Kithkins was around.

It was Kithkins vs. Fairies vs. Elves and all three decks were strong, especially Fairies and Kithkin. There was a time period where Kithkins dominated all the other decks in Standard.

Understandably, the meta very rapidly adjusted. Everyone started playing mass removal like Wrath of God that punished a player who overextends and Kithkins was forced to evolve into a slower more controllish route. Hence why some of the most aggressive Kithkin didn't make it into the Standard lists.

In Legacy Kithins doesn't see the same type of hate, since it's an unexpected deck and few if any decks in this format play Wrath/Damnation.

I do not like how you built your deck. You didn't play most of the aggressive Kithkins that help you win by turn 4. You played slower controllish cards that don't work nearly as well in Legacy.

Play stuff like the 2/2 Kithkin for 1cc, it's basically Isamaru, Hound of Konda (a card that every white weenie deck plays), but with the added advantage that it has tribal synergy with the rest of the deck.

Don't play slow cards like...

4x Burrenton Forge-Tender
4x Honor of the Pure
2x Ajani Goldmane
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

etc.

[Forbiddian]

Don't listen to the haters, Kithkins is a very strong deck and tribe [citation needed]. It's creatures have a ton of synergy, and white is a fantastic supplemental color for tribal creatures as well[citation needed].

I play at a very competitive meta[citation needed], tons of Bant, Countertop, Zoo, Merfolk and Quinn, and there was guy who brings a well developed well built Kithkin about once or twice and month and pretty much ALWAYS did great with the deck everytime he brought it [citation needed].


There are just zilch results anywhere on Kithkins. We're five months into 2010 and there's only ONE on deckcheck since then, and it was on January 2nd. Keep in mind there are a lot of standard players trying, and only 10 top 8s total on DC. Like one deck says, "Don't underestimate Standard." Nice. I'm sure he's a competitive Legacy player.



But the basic question is, "Why would you restrict yourself to shitty kithkins when there are better nonkithkins out there?" Wizened Cenn seems to be the only thing.

The best creature for a White Weenie strategy is Stoneforge Mystic, and it's not a Kithkin. It's not worth cutting him for Wizened Cenn.

[Jon Stewart]

Stoneforge Mystic is probably the best white creature, but only for a slower controllish deck (aggro control).

Aggro Control is NOT the best approach to Kithkins. If your aim is aggro control, there is better ways to go about it. Unfortunately Kithkins evolved into an aggro control deck in standard and I think the OP is making a mistake taking that approach with Kithikin. Aggro Control Kithkins emerged in standard because standard was filled to the brim with mass removal in order to deal with all the tribal cards DCI printed in that block. Standard had four different competitive tribes that were all strictly powerlevel wise the best decks in format. So mass removal was everywhere.

White has the best removal to take out any potential blockers. And given this and the pump that Wizened Cenn offers...

Knight of Meadowgrain => Rhox War Monk (given the lower casting cost and tribal synergy) and RWM sees a ton of play.

Goldmeadow Stalwart > Isamaru, Hound of Konda given the tribal synergy. And Isamaru is good enough to be an automatic 4 of in every aggro white weenie deck that exists. It occupies the same slot that Cursecatcher does in Merfolk, but is a lot more powerful.

Wizened Cenn is ridiculously good.

Figure of Destiny is very good.

Spectral Procession is a solid card.

Mirror Entity provides some incredible utility and wins games single handedly, especially if it is surprise snuck into play for free using either Aether Vial or Preminent Captain.

Thoughtweft Trio is awesome as a finisher, 4 for a 5/5 first strike vigilance that can block any number of creatures straight up wins games against goblins singlehandedly. It also helps you recover from mass removal and such.


Given that almost all the above creatures are Soldiers, Preeminent Captain can be ridiculously good in the correct build (one with 20 or so soldiers which is doable with or without resorting to tier two soldiers like Kithkin Borderguard).


Both Dolem Gate and Thorn of Amethyst are awesome and incredibly effective in letting you go balls to the wall aggro.

[overseer1234]

Personaly I would go for soldiers + stoneforge mystic... with auriok steelshaper + other cool soldiers (+ vial obviously) that way you would have more sinergy in your deck and get to play that other lord for soldiers...

Also the most kithkin you would like to play are soldiers allready so it wouldn't have to warp the deck around all that much.

Other then that this realy needs 4 eather vial, and some for of mana denial like rishadan port or wasteland...

[Jon Stewart]

Personaly I would go for soldiers + stoneforge mystic... with auriok steelshaper + other cool soldiers (+ vial obviously) that way you would have more synergy in your deck and get to play that other lord for soldiers...

... this realy needs 4 aether vial, and some for of mana denial like rishadan port or wasteland...

Those are all fantastic ideas for a deck. They go well together since equipment, can be payed with colorless land like wasteland, and all those creatures generate fantastic tempo.

You should work on throwing together a list if you have the time.

[SpeedOfDark]

I play at a very competitive meta, tons of Bant, Countertop, Zoo, Merfolk and Quinn, and there was guy who brings a well developed well built Kithkin about once or twice and month and pretty much ALWAYS did great with the deck everytime he brought it.
I won more than one legacy event with a treefolk deck. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean anything.



Don't play slow cards like...

4x Burrenton Forge-Tender
4x Honor of the Pure
2x Ajani Goldmane
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

etc.
agree on most of these, except forge-tender. With the strong prescence of zoo I would keep this as a 4-of.


The most interesting Kithkin seems to be Goldmeadow Harrier, tapping all big dudes (including Iona, Blazing Archon, and sphinx of the Steal Wind). Maybe he deserves a look in a different WW shell, but Kithkin don't provide enough bonuses.
Indeed, I haven't tested, but harrier doesn't look half bad. There is a long list of legacy fatties WW would like to lockdown and you can switch targets as soon as they play a larger threat.

[gmeroni]

Ok guys, i've understood, my deck is pretty a shit!...But you are the expert, so how can i build a very very fast aggro deck?..

I've chose kithkin because i'm not so pro, and i have not a so perfect magic knowledge

[the Thin White Duke]

Whoa big fella!
The theme to the responses is to not limit yourself to kithkins.
There are also a lot of other issues you'll have to address, like budget, splashing other colors, your meta, etc.
If you want to stay mono white, then the replies have given you a very good framework for modifying your current deck. If you want to splash red or green and go for a Zoo build that may also be a viable option for you.

[gmeroni]

Whoa big fella!
The theme to the responses is to not limit yourself to kithkins.
There are also a lot of other issues you'll have to address, like budget, splashing other colors, your meta, etc.
If you want to stay mono white, then the replies have given you a very good framework for modifying your current deck. If you want to splash red or green and go for a Zoo build that may also be a viable option for you.

Nooo, i just wanna a fast aggro white deck, because i come from my elvish deck!...My heart now is looking for a fast deck that can give me a lot of satisfactions!.

So guys, if i wanna do a W deck fast, what i've to looking for ?...Soldier?...please give me an help because now the KITHKIN is only a proxy deck, so i can change everything!!

[gmeroni]

Hei guys, any idea? I wanna really build a fast deck, but i need ur help!

[Roman Candle]

Does it have to be monowhite? Can it be like WR for burn?

[gmeroni]

Does it have to be monowhite? Can it be like WR for burn?

I prefer to stay in monowhite! My heart is mono-color!...Mono-white isn't good enough for a competitive deck?

[Roman Candle]

I prefer to stay in monowhite! My heart is mono-color!...Mono-white isn't good enough for a competitive deck?

Well... its just that White is really lacking in aggressive options. Its creatures just aren't that big, and it has no burn for reach like Red does. I mean, Steppe Lynx is an incredibly aggressive creature, but past that, you only have a handful of really efficient guys. You can go Tribal for like Soldiers or Kor, but I wouldn't exactly call those decks hyper-aggressive, at least not in the same way as a deck like Zoo. And I don't think Soldiers or Kor are really competitive.

[baghdadbob]

http://www.icis.com/blogs/asian-chemical-connections/confused.jpg

...

[arebennian]

Here, go here.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17502-%5BVideos%5D-LCL3-May-Barcelona-%28La-Mquina-del-Temps%29-08-05-10

Look at the videos and the associated links via google translator.
That will give you something to discuss.