[Deckbuilding Challenge] Magic Murder Bag

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I am Dr. Hengry Killinger. And this is my Magic Murder Bag. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNqZ7qsWpJc)

Dave Price is to blame for this. That is all.

Here's the list I currently have;

3 Badlands
3 Scrubland
1 Plateau
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Thawing Glaciers

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chainer's Edict
3 Vindicate
3 Damnation

3 Scroll Rack
3 Ajani Vengeant
3 Burning Wish
2 Sorin Markov

Sideboard:
1x
Vindicate
Innocent Blood
Damnation
Akroma's Vengeance
Shattering Spree
Cleanfall
Ambition's Cost
Recoup
Decree of Justice
Death Grasp
Cabal Therapy
Thought Hemorrhage
Haunting Echoes
Morningtide
Boiling Seas

Card choices:
- Discard suite: I tried ditching this for more kill, to give up the ANT matchup, which was pretty miserable anyway. But it turns out it's actually pretty vital against anything with the color blue.
- Kill suite: In an aggro metagame with less wastelands I would switch out Bolts for Lightning Helix and Edict for Innocent Blood. But I think this is a more reliable setup. Lightning Helix in particular is very difficult to cast while fighting Wasteland in a deck sporting Hymns.
- Scroll Rack: Basically, without Counterbalance and with a longer game plan, this outperforms Sensei's Divining Top against every deck that isn't discard based. Ideally you sit back on Planeswalkers and Glaciers and dig two deeper every turn, ditching the unneeded cards at given times. It is miserable against discard, though.
- Thawing Glaciers: Long term CA, feeds Rack.

I'm open to whatever suggestions, but one caveat; I can neither add nor subtract colors. So don't bring it up. I'll update this post as I make changes to the list.

[Skeggi]

Do you have to use Scroll Rack and Thawing Glaciers? Because they're so insanely slow I'd just opt for fetchlands and top. Also, looks like you could use Firespout.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I've experimented with both Top and Rack, and while Rack is slower and more vulnerable, it's also much, much more powerful. And progressively more so as the game goes on. And Glaciers makes Rack much more powerful.

Basically, most of the deck is focused on stalling the short game. But a good control deck needs ways to make the long game play to its advantage; otherwise there was no point in all that stalling in the first place. With Quinn I did this with Top + Sheets, with Truffle Shuffle I did it with Top + Tuskers + Witnesses madness, with Train Wreck it was Coffers + Staff. In this deck it's Planewalkers, Glaciers and Rack.

What would you suggest cutting for Firespout? Do you think it's better than Damnation? Certainly against Goblins/Merfolk, but I'd feel terrible drawing it against Reanimator or Bant or Dave Price's terrible Crucible deck.

[Skeggi]

What would you suggest cutting for Firespout? Do you think it's better than Damnation? Certainly against Goblins/Merfolk, but I'd feel terrible drawing it against Reanimator or Bant or Dave Price's terrible Crucible deck.
In a deck where it's obvious you need to get to the lategame to get your Planeswalkers working, you need fast mass destruction. So first things that come to mind are Firespout and Engineered Explosives. I suggest cutting at least 1 maindeck Damnation for Firespout. I guess a Chainer's Edict could go too. Perhaps add one to your sideboard. The chances of casting Burning Wish into Firespout the same turn seem alot better than Burning Wish into Damnation.

Are you sure you want your entire sideboard to be a wishboard and not spend some slots anti-combo? Stuff like Pithing Needle, Crypt/Relic or even taxing stuff like Sphere of Resistance seem like stuff you could really use.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Shit, I had forgotten about EE. I'm really tempted to run that in place of Vindicate now.

I'll definitely try Firespout in the board over Damnation, although I'm a lot leerier of having it main. Damnation is just such a great answer to any creature, even Proggie, Emrakul et al.

[Vacrix]

Interesting list. I'm surprised though that you don't have a mass removal spell in the board at 3cc. I'm sure there will be clutch situations in which you will want to BW into Firespout against EtW tokens or a shit ton of elves/goblins. Also, is there a reason you are playing Bolt over Path to Exile? Both function as removal spells only Path hits way more.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Interesting list. I'm surprised though that you don't have a mass removal spell in the board at 3cc. I'm sure there will be clutch situations in which you will want to BW into Firespout against EtW tokens or a shit ton of elves/goblins. Also, is there a reason you are playing Bolt over Path to Exile? Both function as removal spells only Path hits way more.

Already added Firespout to the board.

Bolt over Path for a number of reasons. 1) It makes killing the opponent a lot faster. 2) It reduces my reliance on white mana. 3) I don't want to ramp up other decks' game plans.

If anything over Lightning Bolt, it'd be Innocent Blood. But I do find that it makes games go a lot quicker to throw some Bolts at the head while pinging away with Sorin and Ajani. Generally StP, Edict, Vindicate and Damnation give me enough removal again very fat creatures.

On the other hand, I could run Innocent Blood instead and then run Firespout. I'd have more versatility against creatures, possibly. Although I'd be ending the game slower. Might still be worth it.

[Vacrix]

Really? You run 2 plains so I figured it would be easy to support white. Also, I figured that winning after you have board control would be easy, especially when you can get your opponents life total quickly down to 10.

[Skeggi]

Really? You run 2 plains so I figured it would be easy to support white. Also, I figured that winning after you have board control would be easy, especially when you can get your opponents life total quickly down to 10.
He runs just as many white sources as red ones. But then again, you should adapt your manabase to your deck, not your deck to your manabase. It's like saying "Wow, I've just build the perfect manabase for a BWR deck, with black more dominant than white and red. Now to find some spells that could fit in there..."

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

As long as Hymn to Tourach is in there, the deck is going to be pretty black-centric. I don't want to overload on spells of a secondary color, particularly early game ones, as it will make it difficult to develop my manabase correctly while being able to actually play my spells early game.

[Vacrix]

He needs to make it to the mid-late game so that he can psuedo-lock the board with his planeswalkers. With the exception of Bolt, he doesn't really use red at the beginning of the game. He uses Black and White. In the first few turns he will either be playing disruption or targeted removal. Fetching red sources for bolt doesn't make sense when he won't use that red again for 4 or 5 turns. He already runs x4 STP and x3 Vindicate which stall the game pretty well. Why not throw PtE into that mix?

EDIT:

As long as Hymn to Tourach is in there, the deck is going to be pretty black-centric. I don't want to overload on spells of a secondary color, particularly early game ones, as it will make it difficult to develop my manabase correctly while being able to actually play my spells early game.
Thats what I was referring to. You don't really use red in the early game so why is changing it to white that much different?

EDIT2:
If it is that black-centric, then you might as well go with the Innocent Blood plan.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well I'm interested in testing a list that was;

-4 Bolt
-3 Edict
-1 Damnation

+3 Firespout
+3 Innocent Blood
+1 Vindicate
+1 Burning Wish

But as I said, other weaknesses are that it would have less closing power. And that can also cost you games and rounds.

[luckme10]

Porphyry Nodes, while seen a majority of the time as strictly slower and thus inferior to wrath/damnation, might warrant some play testing here. In a deck the cheapest of disruption in spot removal and discard alongside a consistant CA engine, the white drop of honey might be just enough to fill the cracks. Throwing one down on turn 3 acts added deterrence from playing creatures as well as can remove shroud and protection creatures ie Progenitus.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I have a very, very difficult time seeing Porphyry Nodes being anything more than a slow Reciprocate 50% of the time, plus. And that card didn't even see play in Block.

While it'd be a neat combo with Order of the Ebon Hand, I don't think it fits here.

Although, that does get me wanting to try out The Abyss in the Damnation slot. Half for the cool, old school factor.

[Aggro_zombies]

Does the deck have to be Bwr? If you're willing to go BWr, Elspeth and Gideon both seem worthwhile as planeswalkers that can totally dominate the game if left unchecked.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I was experimenting with Gideon Jura in particular. He seemed pretty powerful. But my inclination is that it's too dangerous to rely on double white, double black, and splashing red while trying to fight Wasteland. Something needs to give.

The only thing that could be cut for it is Sorin anyway. And I'm not actually sure that Sorin isn't stronger than Gideon or Elspeth. The lifegain has saved me a fair few times, and the ability to knock off a theoretically infinite amount of lifegain to bring the opponent back into burn range is valuable. Sorin also eats other Planeswalkers alive, which has come up a few times on MWS. Granted that's a poor gauge for the real world.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I don't know if you can shoehorn it in, but Cataclysm, Wrath, or Armageddon should all be considered.

[(nameless one)]

Can anyone exactly explain how Scroll Rack and Thawing Glaciers can net you 2 cards each turn? I am guessing you would need 2 Glaciers, an active Rack and 2 mana right?

[Aggro_zombies]

I was experimenting with Gideon Jura in particular. He seemed pretty powerful. But my inclination is that it's too dangerous to rely on double white, double black, and splashing red while trying to fight Wasteland. Something needs to give.
So basically what you need is a control deck that's strictly in Oros colors and is capable of beating Dave Price's New Horizons?

In that case, I'm not sure why you're messing around with Thawing Glaciers, given that they come into play tapped.

[Finn]

You may just have carved a niche spot for Blightning. You have a deck that is in heavy black early for a single card (Hymn). You are dealing a significant amount of damage burn style. Switch to it and you could have a lot more versatility with the other cards you want. It seems a bit weak for Legacy, but it's hard to tell in this deck.

EDIT: something to consider. Aether Vial will probably be a problem for you in the long run because so much of your removal is sorcery speed. It will make it hard for you to keep your planeswalkers alive against those opponents.

[Genericcactus]

Though Gerrard's Verdict is worse than Hymn on a power level, it might fit better in this deck. You no longer have to depend on double black in the early game, it can gain you life in aggro matchups, and makes the mana easier for you to play Path/StP.

[tpnp]

Any thoughts on Hide//Seek? It doesn't fit the wish-board plan at all, but getting rid of problem enchantments/artifacts and having the option of removing threats (Iona) before they show up could be good.

I know it was used quite a bit in the Vintage deck Mountains Win Again, maybe it could have some applications in Legacy.

[SpeedOfDark]

Any thoughts on Hide//Seek? It doesn't fit the wish-board plan at all, but getting rid of problem enchantments/artifacts and having the option of removing threats (Iona) before they show up could be good.

I know it was used quite a bit in the Vintage deck Mountains Win Again, maybe it could have some applications in Legacy.

not to mention that removing a progenitus and gaining 10 life from a deck playing NO would be absolutely hilarious.

[luckme10]

I have a very, very difficult time seeing Porphyry Nodes being anything more than a slow Reciprocate 50% of the time, plus. And that card didn't even see play in Block.

While it'd be a neat combo with Order of the Ebon Hand, I don't think it fits here.

Although, that does get me wanting to try out The Abyss in the Damnation slot. Half for the cool, old school factor.

The Abyss! Oh, that's a card I haven't heard of in a long time. That sounds like a good card to test. Consuming Vapors (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Consuming%20Vapors) would be another one to play this role.
Another one would be tabernacle. You know for the extra $400 we all have floating around :rolleyes:

Other cards to consider for wishlist:
Hide and Seek would be cheaper wish options over vindicate and would allow you to put it back in your deck. It's life gain, enchantment/artifact removal and color adeptness make it a very versatile card.

I would take out Cabal Therapy, you don't have any creatures to pay it's flashback cost so I think Small Pox (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Smallpox) or Blightning (completely agree with Finn on this one) would be better choices. Small Pox would be great because your losses are minimized by your land consistancy and the fact that you have no creatures.

Browbeat (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Browbeat) over Ambitions Cost because it can add pressure as a finisher when you'll be able to cast it- and giving your opponent 'choices.'

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Have you checked out this thread.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16650-Planeswalker-Rock

I think your two decks do things in similar fashion and you might get some ideas from here.
As someone else mentioned I think Elspeth would be a good inclusion in your deck.

[Aggro_zombies]

Though Gerrard's Verdict is worse than Hymn on a power level, it might fit better in this deck. You no longer have to depend on double black in the early game, it can gain you life in aggro matchups, and makes the mana easier for you to play Path/StP.

You may just have carved a niche spot for Blightning. You have a deck that is in heavy black early for a single card (Hymn). You are dealing a significant amount of damage burn style. Switch to it and you could have a lot more versatility with the other cards you want. It seems a bit weak for Legacy, but it's hard to tell in this deck.

The biggest problem I can see with all of these is that they're multicolored in a deck that absolutely has to be able to play around Wasteland. The manabase would have to be retooled to accommodate them, and for not a lot of gain in the case of Verdict or Blightning.


Any thoughts on Hide//Seek? It doesn't fit the wish-board plan at all, but getting rid of problem enchantments/artifacts and having the option of removing threats (Iona) before they show up could be good.
Hide is by far the best half here, but it's not clear that it's necessarily better than something like Orim's Thunder or Disenchant, which are all in one color (instead of in both splash colors). Seek is pretty meh - sure, you can get rid of Iona, but very few Reanimator decks have just one Iona, so it doesn't really help you much.

Browbeat is pretty awful because it will very rarely do what you want it to do.

EDIT: @Jack: I know you want to support all three colors, but in the absence of a restriction saying you have to give equal screen time to white and red, it's not clear to me that the latter is providing enough value compared to what you're potentially giving up out of the former. I think you'd give yourself much more options by being BWr than Bwr, but you would have to rework the mana (not sure if you're allowed to do that for this challenge, but if you are, then you should).

[morgan_coke]

I'd have to say I support those arguing for the removal of Hymn to Tourach. It really messes up your mana early, whereas Gerard's Verdict and Blightning both don't, even if they aren't as good at destroying someone's hand.

I also strongly support the inclusion of Hide/Seek, as it also has a fair amount of utility vs. combo decks, as many versions of ANT being played right now only run 1-2 tendrils. Seek also straight up counters Mystical Tutor. For help with combo post board, see Thought Hemorrhage and Cranial Extraction, with those two cards you're basically in a race with the combo deck - can they kill you before you take out their kill condition and make it impossible for them to win? With Burning Wish you've got access to that plan game 1, and the Hide/Seeks will let you scan their deck first to avoid any unpleasant surprises.

I think that is a much stronger plan vs. combo that what you're running right now.

[Aggro_zombies]

One other thing: have you considered Wall of Omens for this deck? It cycles, it protects your planeswalkers, it's actually difficult to punch through with Tarmogoyf or evasion.

[kinda]

Well, chains of mephistopheles shuts down brainstorm, ponder, and horizon canopy pretty hard...so I'd probably go with an std shell. You could cut helm/leyline combo for 4 burning wish and some e-tutor silver bullets/win cons. Hakkon can be played from the yard post chains/anvil soft lock. Also ensnaring bridge works well with that lock.

3 ancient tomb
4 scrubland
4 marsh flats
4 arid mesa
2 swamp
1 plateau
1 plains
1 mountain
2 badlands

2 haakon, stromgald scourge

4 swords to plowshares
3 firespout
2 damnation
1 ensnaring bridge

4 enlightened tutor
4 leyline of the void
4 helm of obedience

4 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek

4 chains of mephistopheles
1 anvil of bogardon

1 scroll rack

[Vacrix]

You may just have carved a niche spot for Blightning. You have a deck that is in heavy black early for a single card (Hymn). You are dealing a significant amount of damage burn style. Switch to it and you could have a lot more versatility with the other cards you want. It seems a bit weak for Legacy, but it's hard to tell in this deck.

EDIT: something to consider. Aether Vial will probably be a problem for you in the long run because so much of your removal is sorcery speed. It will make it hard for you to keep your planeswalkers alive against those opponents.
Blightning looks good at first glance. 3 damage and a Hymn is good and all but when you can quickly lower your opponent lifetotal to 10, the 3 damage from Blightning is then rather useless since your opponent will likely lose that life anyway from Sorin. In that case, Gerrard's Verdict might be a better choice since it acts like a psuedo-hymn for BW, giving you an option that is less reliant on having BB which means you can fetch a basic plains and swamp early to avoid Wasteland, instead of fetching 2 swamps and then being color screwed. If you go this route, I strongly suggest you consider Path to Exile, since you will have the basics to play the white removal in the early turns of the game.
Also, Finn brings up a good point. Innocent Blood might be great, but Vial can give you a headache. Even without Vial, trading Innocent Blood for Noble Hiearch is mediocre when you could be playing PtE and take your opponents Goyf.

EDIT:

Any thoughts on Hide//Seek? It doesn't fit the wish-board plan at all, but getting rid of problem enchantments/artifacts and having the option of removing threats (Iona) before they show up could be good.

I know it was used quite a bit in the Vintage deck Mountains Win Again, maybe it could have some applications in Legacy.
It might be worth running. Its bomb against decks like Survival and Reanimator than run high CC creatures. Having that life could make all the difference when you are trying to top deck that removal spell.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm going to ask that people making suggestions of things to add also offer suggestions of replacements. Room is pretty tight right now. Hide/Seek would be good against Reanimator and ANT, and Bant decks running Natural Order, and the Hide part definitely makes it versatile against a lot of other decks. But what is it actually bettter than? Vindicate would be the only slot I see for it, but Vindicate is much better against Counterbalance, and the ability to take out creatures, planeswalkers and lands seems pretty relevant. In a control matchup in particular Vindicate + Ajani gives the deck a mana denial element that's quite useful.

I've also had very, very bad experiences with Gerrard's Verdict relative to Hymn. Hymn can absolutely devastate a hand the way that selective discard can't. The manabase has to bend one direction, and I think Hymn justifies it bending black.

Note: Hide/Seek is an instant, and can't be Wished for here.

I would feel better about a setup combining Lightning Bolt and Blightning to put a lot more pressure on the opponent, but that would push me back towards Damnation over Firespout. I'd also feel more comfortable with Hide/Seek in such a setup, as it would better fit in the mana curve and I'd have more answers to Planeswalkers.

I'm also wondering if Engineered Explosives is better than Vindicate.

[the Thin White Duke]

I'll second (or third) the sentiments about Gerrard's Verdict. I've wanted to like it for so long, and used it in other three color builds. But every time I play it I think "I shudda had a V8." I mean Hymn. The random discard is so much more devastating than giving someone options. And since you're so heavy on black, I wouldn't screw with the manabase to play Verdict over Hymn.
Also, I agree with Vacrix about Blightning. I'm not sure if it's a good fit tempo-wise in this deck.

[Aggro_zombies]

InfamousBearAss, how about this?
assin

4 Wall of Omens
2 Eternal Dragon

2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Gideon Jura
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Chainer's Edict
3 Vindicate
3 Damnation

3 Scroll Rack

4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
2 Thawing Glaciers
3 Swamp
3 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
1 Plateau
1 Badlands

The Shrine is kind of ugly, but you can't run the fifth Scrubland. It could conceivably be a second Badlands, but red mana is less important in this version.

EDIT: If you want, Walls can become some combination of Burning Wish and Hide//Seek, but I prefer the cantrip blocker myself.

[the Thin White Duke]

InfamousBearAss, how about this?
assin

4 Wall of Omens
2 Eternal Dragon

2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Gideon Jura
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Chainer's Edict
3 Vindicate
3 Damnation

3 Scroll Rack

4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
2 Thawing Glaciers
3 Swamp
3 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
1 Plateau
1 Badlands

The manabase looks kind of scary here. Lots of WW and BB, that makes me nervous. How are things working without Bolt? The lists look sad without it.

[Aggro_zombies]

The manabase looks kind of scary here. Lots of WW and BB, that makes me nervous. How are things working without Bolt? The lists look sad without it.
Yeah, but your double colors happen at different points in the game. :w::w: is almost strictly late-game, and :b::b: is usually early-game, which makes it easier for you to set up mana - find black early, white late.

I don't know about Bolt. I just threw a list out there. Eternal Dragon and more planeswalkers make your late-game better, and early on...I dunno.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Burning Wish is one of the very best spells in the deck.

Another reason I didn't add Gideon or, for that matter, Elspeth, and also Eternal Dragon, is that right now creature removal is dead against me, and I kind of like that. I might think about Wall of Omens, as the idea of getting it Path'd makes me tingly, but I'm not sure how a one off cantrip blocker is going to fit in the deck. I'm not sure what it's better than.

To answer an earlier question:

Thawing Glaciers and Planeswalkers are part of how you can develop your gameplan without dropping cards. When you go a turn without playing a spell, Scroll Rack is digging two cards deeper than the previous turn; if you have 5 cards and switch them out for the top 5, then untap and draw 6, you're now playing around with your top 12 (including the ones in your hand) rather than the top 10. Ajani and Sorin let you deal with dorks while this is happening, and Glaciers lets you develop your manabase.

[Aggro_zombies]

Creature removal is kind of dead against Elspeth anyway. I mean, wow, they can Swords a token that got Angelic Blessing'd. You gain four life and make another token next turn.

Gideon getting killed is kind of a bummer, though.

Dragon was there more as a way to find lands, not as beatdown. I mean, it's nice to have that option, but if you're running scared of Wasteland it seems like having access to colorless mana fixers that can't really be destroyed would be pretty nice. It also helps up the shuffler counter for Scroll Rack, since your only shuffle effects right now are fetches and Thawing Glacially Slow (a card you almost never want to see until the very late game, imo, at which point it doesn't matter. The card is barely playable in EDH, and that's saying something).

Sorin also doesn't really deal with dorks in this format. Most guys in the format have an effective ass of at least three, including almost everything in Zoo bar Pridemage and Steppe Lynx, Merfolk with one or more lords out, all of the creatures that matter in Counterbalance NO, everything in Reanimator, etc. If you want a planeswalker to deal with dorks, Ajani and (to a lesser extent) Gideon are your go-to guys.

[Oiolosse]

Well, why not just run Nevy's Disk? Takes care of all the bullshit while leaving your Planeswalkers untouched. Also, it's easy to cast, not cheap, but easy.

No bolt, pinpoint removal needs to be PtE, or just replace with innocent blood.

[Skeggi]

I'm also wondering if Engineered Explosives is better than Vindicate.
This depends on your meta. While you say Vindicate is very good against Counterbalance, alot of CounterTop decks play quite some cards with cmc3. If this is the case, Engineered Explosives with Sunburst 2 but X=4 can be game winning. However, if you need to destroy a single target, Vindicate is alot faster and ofcourse, when you need to destroy something over cmc3 (Elspeth can be pretty nasty I can imagine) Vindicate would be the way to go. Also, it seems like a waste you can't run Academy Ruins.

Which reminds me, wouldn't Volrath's Stronghold with Shriekmaw be awesome?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

- Sorin takes out Pridemage, Confidant, Noble Hierarch, Steppe Lynx, Trinket Mage, Stoneforge Mystic, Meddling Mage, and pretty much any tribal creature. He doesn't hit Nacatl, Goyf, Tombstalker, and Mishra's Factory, but that's still the large majority of non-Goyf critters played according to Deckcheck.

The thing to keep in mind about running Sorin, and also the Lightning Bolt slot in the first list, is that I'm running a lot of removal for bigger guys in either case. The deck runs more straight up removal than most decks have creatures, not even including the Planewalkers and B. Wish. StP, Vindicate, Damnation, Edict effects, etc., are all happy to take care of the big critters. Iona is of limited effect. I even have multiple methods of dealing with Progenitus and Emrakul.

- Speaking of, I'm noticing that without Bolts I'm a lot worse against Factories, as StP is my only instant-speed removal. And I'm not adding Path to Exile. Giving an opponent a land seems way worse than running Lightning Bolt, which speeds up the game and kills almost every played creature in creature-based decks.

- Running Disk would necessitate dropping Scroll Rack for Top, I think. Is that worth it? What decks are widely played where I'll need more than Vindicate? I'd rather keep the faster cards like Damnation, and Wish for any other sweepers I need. Especially considering how widespread Pridemage is.

- I dunno. I've found Glaciers to be really useful in testing. Eternal Dragon costs a shit ton of mana for something you're never planning on hardcasting.

[Anusien]

I know, manabase is pushed toward black right now, blah blah blah. Even so, Moat has to be better than Damnation, right? With only 4 StP to deal with them, it seems like manlands and hasty guys are going to give you problems trying to keep your planeswalkers around. I don't think "Kill every guy you play" is a viable plan. I think "Stall until I land Moat, then burn you out" is a much better plan.

I might like to see Path to Exile instead of Swords to Plowshares. Normally for control decks the life loss isn't a problem, but you're sort of limited on your "Win the game" options. Sorin's "Become 10" and Ajani's "Deal damage" abilities both cost loyalty counters, and you only have the 4 Lightning Bolts.

[DrJones]

Porphyry Nodes has the added ability of keeping opponents from playing creatures until it leaves play. I think you should take into consideration it's potential to buy time and its low cost for something able to kill progenitus and shroud creatures.

[Pastorofmuppets]

turn 4 Vengeant into turn 5 Armageddon with 1 mana for removal seems pretty potent to me. Just sayin'.
Also, why can't he run Hymn AND Verdict?

[Aggro_zombies]

turn 4 Vengeant into turn 5 Armageddon with 1 mana for removal seems pretty potent to me. Just sayin'.
Also, why can't he run Hymn AND Verdict?
Actually, that seems really, really bad. Most decks in the format don't need more than 2-3 mana to work, and running Armageddon in a big-mana control deck is pretty stupid. Like, Ajani alone takes 18 turns to win the game, assuming your opponent has cracked 2 fetches or otherwise hit himself down to 18 (-2, then +1, +1, then -2...etc.). That's, like, fucking forever. It would be much better to land Sorin because at least Sorin wins in six turns when left alone.

Hymn and Verdict is (a) overkill in the discard department, (b) dedicating too many slots to cards that are bad after turn 4, (c) not so good for a deck that has to be able to beat New Horizons or any other deck capable of fielding a stream of Wastelands.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So, I played the deck at Vestal and finished in the bottom 10. Essentially the deck has exactly the problem you'd think; while none of the cards are really bad individually (excepting probably Sorin Markov), MMB has no way of manipulating the draws or producing real, tangible card advantage.

Here's the list I ran;

2 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
3 Badlands
4 Scrubland
1 Plateau

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Helix
3 Innocent Blood
3 Vindicate
3 Damnation

4 Burning Wish
2 Skeletal Scrying

3 Ajani Vengeant
2 Sorin Markov

SB:
4 Planar Void
2 Bojuka Bog
1 Recoup
1 Decree of Justice
1 Innocent Blood
1 Wrath of God
1 Firespout
1 Vindicate
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Haunting Echoes

I missed Scroll Rack. I'd probably try to fit both Rack and Skeletal Scrying in here, and add an Ambition's Cost back to the wishboard.

But honestly, aside from novelty challenges, it'd just be so much better to splash even for just Brainstorm, See Beyond and, I dunno, Repulses or Echoing Truth or something. Or Green so you could run Deed, Top, Tusker and Regrowth, and better Wish targets.

[kinda]

So, I played the deck at Vestal and finished in the bottom 10. Essentially the deck has exactly the problem you'd think; while none of the cards are really bad individually (excepting probably Sorin Markov), MMB has no way of manipulating the draws or producing real, tangible card advantage.

Here's the list I ran;

2 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
3 Badlands
4 Scrubland
1 Plateau

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Helix
3 Innocent Blood
3 Vindicate
3 Damnation

4 Burning Wish
2 Skeletal Scrying

3 Ajani Vengeant
2 Sorin Markov

SB:
4 Planar Void
2 Bojuka Bog
1 Recoup
1 Decree of Justice
1 Innocent Blood
1 Wrath of God
1 Firespout
1 Vindicate
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Haunting Echoes

I missed Scroll Rack. I'd probably try to fit both Rack and Skeletal Scrying in here, and add an Ambition's Cost back to the wishboard.

But honestly, aside from novelty challenges, it'd just be so much better to splash even for just Brainstorm, See Beyond and, I dunno, Repulses or Echoing Truth or something. Or Green so you could run Deed, Top, Tusker and Regrowth, and better Wish targets.

1) Why did you run this?
2) What's wrong with phyrexian arena for the ca engine? The only better engine I can think of is jace...
3) I almost want to suggest luminarch ascension instead of planeswalkers as the wincon with all that removal...

without testing i'd say -5 planeswalkers, -2 skeletal, +4 phyrexian arena, +3 luminarch ascension

[Guy I Don't Know]

The abyss seems fun. I want to play amulet of vigor eventhough it is horrible.

[Galrael]

I ran a similar list in vestal though slightly different wishboard and hide//seek instead of damnation ( love this card btw, I pulled out 3 progenitus with it as well as tendrils) but I lost because I could never pull the win condition.(plus I had three matchups against storm 2 ANT and 1 TES). Everyone I played loved the deck but had tons of ideas to make it better. Right now I'm testing a list with elspeth I stead of sorin with a slightly different mana base and dark confidant+top. I'll post about it after more testing.

Also Infamousbearassasin I wonder if you were the guy at the counter I asked if we were running the same deck lol. I was the super tall guy.

[Vacrix]

IBA, how has the Planar Void been working out for you? I assume you board out Skeletal Scrying when you board in Planar Void due to their disynergy. Is it better than Relic of Progenitus? Relic draws you a card, and it can remove stuff thats already in the graveyard.

[Tilde]

Banefire could be worthwhile in the wishboard - if they let you resolve a Wish assuming that they can counter whatever you grab, suddenly every 'walker and burn spell threatens to put them in I-untap-and-win range.

[Antonius]

have you considered running Tithe? Has synergy with fetchlands and it fills up your hand so you have chaff to pitch to scroll rack. Also helps fix the color dilemma by getting you two x/W duals.

[Jon Stewart]

Hey IBA, it seems like you abandoned the Quinn deck. Does this mean thus deck displaced Quinn as your go to control deck of choice?

Is the Scroll Rack engine superior to the Top engine. How they compare to the Land Tax Scroll Rack engine if that were legal (even while requiring you to always have fewer lands than your opponent).

[Kagehisa]

Lethal Vapors:
Black enchantment 2BB
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, destroy it.
0: Destroy Lethal Vapors. You skip your next turn. Any player may activate this ability.

Time Warp for 4 or Counterbalance against almost all creatures.

Volrath's Dungeon:
black Enchantment 2BB
Pay 5 life: Destroy Volrath's Dungeon. Any player may activate this ability but only during his or her turn.
Discard a card: Target player puts a card from his or her hand on top of his or her library. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.

Volrath's dungeon can be played with Ensnaring Bridge and against control deck, it follows the discard plan. Lava Axe for 4.

I know that they can be looked only as sideboard cards and there is no room in the sideboard because of Wishes.

Both win the game with Sorin's ultimate; it sounds win more.

[Vacrix]

Lethal Vapors:
Black enchantment 2BB
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, destroy it.
0: Destroy Lethal Vapors. You skip your next turn. Any player may activate this ability.
I hope you didnt in all seriousness suggest one of the worst cards ever.

[Kagehisa]

When Sorin's ultimate is activated, if your opponent doesn't skip his or her turn in response or before you take control of his or her turn, you'll choose that he or she activates 1,000 times the "skip your turn ability" and you win. That's why he or she should use the ability himself or herself during the turn you activate Sorin's ultimate : Time Warp for 4. Yes, the card is bad and it is a false combo because your opponent can choose to escape by destroying the enchantment. That's why I suggested the other enchantment which works better but less fun.

[Knuckles29]

IBA, I have to say your Roguish designs are a great service to casual-competative players.

1- I play mild competative Vintage, with TaxRack I might add

2- I'm throwing ideas out like everyone else

3- These ideas are based on personal experience

Thopter-Sword is in color

Hexmage Depth protected via Hymn/Duress/Unmask wins randomly

Sadistic Sacrament is amazing in Vintage

Crucible-Wasteland/Fetch is also an engine

Hymn, Sinkhole, Vindicate a la Deadguy Ale is fun and aggressive.... and mostly black

I want Bitterblossoms to show up more

Luminarch Ascenscion operating behind Solitary Confinement is also janky wins

Enlightened Tutor and atleast 1 Pithing Needle stop Wastelands

Smallpox and Flagstones or Crucible is probably not as good as Innocent Blood, but adding to the Hymn plan...

[Aggro_zombies]

Thopter-Sword is in color
Thopter Foundry requires blue.

EDIT: Unless you meant Ornithopter equipped with SoFI?

[Vacrix]

When Sorin's ultimate is activated, if your opponent doesn't skip his or her turn in response or before you take control of his or her turn, you'll choose that he or she activates 1,000 times the "skip your turn ability" and you win. That's why he or she should use the ability himself or herself during the turn you activate Sorin's ultimate : Time Warp for 4. Yes, the card is bad and it is a false combo because your opponent can choose to escape by destroying the enchantment. That's why I suggested the other enchantment which works better but less fun.
The point is not that it is a Time Warp for 4. The point is against quite a few decks, you need a sweeper at 4. Most of the time, aggro will have already laid down a team that could go all the way under Lethal Vapors, making it dead in some situations when a Damnation or another sweeper would not be quite as dead. Also, you have to consider what a deck gains from a 4cc quasi-Timewarp. It sinks most of your mana so its pretty much a dead card early on because you can't abuse your untap or combat step. So in the early game its 4 mana, draw a card, drop a land. Hardly impressive. In the mid-game, it might allow you to cast some extra spells, likely some removal, in which case why not play more sweepers/removal instead? In the late game, it will likely enable some tricks with the mad amount of lands this deck will get out by that time, but even then I see Decree of Justice being even more dangerous. Its a pretty bad card man. I think people tend to overestimate the usefulness of timewalks. Sure its hella useful at 1U in Vintage, but at 2BB I don't see it being playable unless you can find a way to recur it. It might be playable at 3cc but thats a completely different discussion.

[Knuckles29]

Thopter Foundry requires blue.

EDIT: Unless you meant Ornithopter equipped with SoFI?

Nope, I am mixing up the hybrid colors and the base color. I forgot blue altogther.

[Vacrix]

Nope, I am mixing up the hybrid colors and the base color. I forgot blue altogther.
What? You can't forget blue. That was his point. Magic Murder Bag doesn't run Blue. >.>

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=183017&type=card
Needs U.

[Kagehisa]

@Vacrix : I agree man. Just to make it clear: Don't play Lethal Vapors.

In my mind :

turn1: play what you want
turn2: play Burning Wish and get Firespout (or Pyroclam to be daze proof)
turn3: play Firespout
turn4: play Lethal Vapors
...
turnN: play Sorin

That was the plan I suggested against aggro. The sweeper comes turn3. It doesn't look so bad on paper. Anyways, sure there are better plans.