Heavy Machine Gun (R/U Aggro-Combo) [Archive]

kicks_422

05-11-2010, 08:05 PM

HEAVY MACHINE GUN
(R/U Aggro-Combo)

The deck name is a Metal Slug reference. I think that's a good start.

When Ravnica block rolled around, the Guild that interested me the most was the Blue-Red Izzet. It was quirky and sneaky, and fused my two favorite colors. I made a block deck that abused Izzet staples such as Wee Dragonauts and Gelectrode, and it was such a fun deck to play.

However, it was just really a casual deck, espeically when I tried to port it into Legacy. For a deck that was dubbed as Izzet Machine Gun, it lacked bullets that could finish the job. I could swing in for 9 in one turn, but then I'd get steamrolled after that.

New printings have given my pet deck some new toys. In order, they were Ponder, Scalding Tarn, Distortion Strike, and the one that I think helps the deck the most, Kiln Fiend.

With some inspiration from past decks and lists posted right here on the Source, and a few tweaks, Heavy Machine Gun was born.

HEAVY MACHINE GUN [AS OF 05/12/2010]

6 Island
6 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn

4 Kiln Fiend
4 Wee Dragonauts
4 Gelectrode

4 Magma Jet
4 Distortion Strike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire//Ice
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Isochron Scepter

Sideboard
4 Pyroblast
4 Echoing Truth
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Hydroblast

Deck Construction Choices

Manabase

It's the standard 2-color manabase. It's very stable and 20 is just the right number of lands. You could even probably get away with not running duals at all. No colorless lands such as Wastelands and Mutavaults/Factories because though the deck is not mana-hungry, it's very mana-color-hungry. If you know what I mean.

Creatures

The 12 creatures are the ideal ones for this deck. Kiln Fiend is such a house, and Wee Dragonauts is a great back-up. Gelectrode deals lots of damage when left unchecked - and it usually does.

Wait, I'm running Gelectrode over Grim Lavamancer? Yes, that's right. I really felt no need for it, as when I cast it Turn 1, I don't get to use it's ability until Turn 3 or 4. By then, Gelectrode would deal much more damage. Much, much more.

Spells

12 burn spells and 12 cantrips are solid (I count Fire//Ice as both, of course). It makes for some huge turns, with 10+ power guys smashing face out of nowhere. Distortion Strike is a great surprise way to get Kiln Fiend through, and the Rebound ability is just hot gravy.

The Isochron Scepter slot was originally for something else. I tried everything imaginable - Incinerate, Veil of Secrecy, Reckless Charge, Shadow Rift, etc. But I kept facing the same problem - running out of gas in the long-run. Then I remembered the Scepter, put it in, and never looked back. I'm surprised that an imprinted Fire//Ice can still win games, and it has.

So, no countermagic? Well, I wanted the deck to be proactive as possible. I want to cast spells on my turn, when I want, not in response to what the opponent does. You don't see Boros lists running Orim's Chant right? Same principle. This is kind of a Sligh deck at heart, with blue used for cantrips and the creature base, and nothing else. Countermagic, though one may argue will save you from difficult situations, is not the route that this deck wants to take. It would be an entirely different deck altogether, not from card choices but from play style.

Sideboard

Honestly, just thrown together. Graveyard hate, plus 2 of the best color hosers in the game, and generic bounce. They work great as SB options when imprinted on a Scepter, additionally. An imprinted Pyroblast, for example, has won me numerous games against Merfolk.

Deck Piloting

Most games start off by casting cantrips and laying down your guys and Scepters, building up for one huge turn. Every creature you have in play boosts everything else you play with additional damage. So it's Sligh of some sort since you're running creatures and then clearing the way for blockers with burn, and then dealing damage to the dome to finish off the opponent if needed. It's also some sort of delayed Storm, where your spells are chained among a couple of turns to go for the thorat with one huge strike.

It's pretty simple, actually. And it's so awesome to swing with an unblockable 18/2 after chaing cantrips and chucking burn spells in every direction.

Conclusion

There you have it, Heavy Machine Gun. I'd love it if someone else would take this for a whirl, so you can see how the deck plays. Can it even get into any form of discussion as a tier deck? I honestly don't know. One thing's for sure though - it's fun as hell.

Hanni

05-11-2010, 08:25 PM

When I used to play UGR Gro back in the day (my version with Dryad and Dragonauts), I ran Lava Dart. It was good back then vs Goblins and had the ability to double pump. Might be worth looking into, still.

Fireblast is also a solid card, and probably reduces your goldfish a full turn.

I'm not sold on Iscochron Scepter at all, regardless of synergies, as the card is just so vulnerable. I also think Geolectrode isn't worth it. Consider looking into Reckless Charge as it defnitely does some nasty things in a deck like this.

I'd also work in more 1cc burn since it clears blockers and doubles as to-the-dome damage.

I really like the R/u aggro concept, though.

eq.firemind

05-12-2010, 06:49 AM

The deck needs Manamorphose.

Nessaja

05-12-2010, 07:56 AM

Basilsik Collar.. guess youll need sharpshooter if youre going to do that.

Could work good vs aggro.

Dilettante

05-12-2010, 09:10 AM

I'm not a fan of isochron... too easy to 2:1, especially with too many qasalis and such going around. You may be better served sliding in Daze + Force. You live on board tempo and the hit on Daze can be compensated with some removal.

This is a current list of a mutt deck I'm using of a similar vein, though it was a converted berserk stompy/zoo/sligh shell that's been modified to go blue instead of white, and takes away removal on lieu of counters:

Creatures (12)
4x Kiln Fiend
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kavu Predator

Instants (25)
4x Berserk
4x Brainstorm
4x Invigorate
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Force of Will
2x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
1x Echoing Truth

Sorceries (1)
1x Distortion Strike

Artifacts (4)
4x Aether Vial

Land (18)
2x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island
1x Tundra
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Mountain

Sideboard
4x Krosan Grip
1x Spell Pierce
2x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Firespout
1x Vines of Vastwood
1x Riding the Dilu Horse
3x Vexing Shusher

It definitely plays differently, due to lack of constant board control and burn reach, but uses mana-passive counters to protect going off. Similar principle in winning off the churn, but has a bit of lasting power that stays on the board. It's better for a combo/ aggro control meta, since it has increased speed with disruption effects, but yours seems suitable for a more zoo/sligh heavy meta, if that is what you have to tangle with. This version might fall under Danger of Cool Things since Riding the Dilu Horse is only two letters away from Didgeridoo, the Dryad Arbor being the most likely in this category, since it's only there as an emergency fetchable creature that dances around EE, but can also be vialed in on turn 1, but... another eye may be able to find better refinements.

kicks_422

05-12-2010, 10:07 AM

Hanni, as much as I love Fireblast, I don't think it won't work here as well as I would want. It would be relegated to a more of a finisher role here, when what I want from that spot is something to get me into a position to actually finish the opponent off.

Scepter has been such a hit or miss for me. When it works, it works awesome. When it gets desdtroyed/bounced, of course the tempo loss and card disadvantage really hurts. I'm going to stick with it in the meantime though, until something better comes up.

I want something that would get me to draw cards and/or deal damage. I'm looking at Ancestral Vision initially, but I'm open to suggestions. Just not Manamorphose.

Nelis

05-12-2010, 10:46 AM

Why not put in a single Scepter? It's too random to sideboard against but when it hits the board its amazing.

Tacosnape

05-12-2010, 10:57 AM

So, no countermagic? Well, I wanted the deck to be proactive as possible. I want to cast spells on my turn, when I want, not in response to what the opponent does. You don't see Boros lists running Orim's Chant right? Same principle. This is kind of a Sligh deck at heart, with blue used for cantrips and the creature base, and nothing else. Countermagic, though one may argue will save you from difficult situations, is not the route that this deck wants to take. It would be an entirely different deck altogether, not from card choices but from play style.

It's completely a different principle. Boros runs on efficient burn spells and threats. All of your threats and some of your spells are subpar and inefficient if you can't successfully chain together damage to win. Any player who draws 2-3 removal spells is going to massacre you.

Adding Force or Daze, however, gives you the option to say, drop a Dragonauts, then next turn Bolt something, Distortion strike the Dragonauts up to 6, swing, and if they try to remove it, Daze/Force it up to 8.

Additionally, you have nothing to slow or disrupt them while you build to the 2-3 land necessary to even get started.

DragoFireheart

05-12-2010, 11:11 AM

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17370-R-u-Pump-Slap

It's completely a different principle. Boros runs on efficient burn spells and threats. All of your threats and some of your spells are subpar and inefficient if you can't successfully chain together damage to win. Any player who draws 2-3 removal spells is going to massacre you.

Adding Force or Daze, however, gives you the option to say, drop a Dragonauts, then next turn Bolt something, Distortion strike the Dragonauts up to 6, swing, and if they try to remove it, Daze/Force it up to 8.

Additionally, you have nothing to slow or disrupt them while you build to the 2-3 land necessary to even get started.

I agree: this deck needs counters to help protect your creatures and protect you while you "combo" out.

Furthermore, manamorphose is really good for Kiln and Wee as it can easily chain you into cantrips or burn spells to further pump them up. I don't know why you wouldn't consider it when it can also be used to color fix your mana when you need blue mana for w/e reason. You want a lot of cantrips for this sort of decks so you don't run out of gas pumping up your creatures and letting your trodes fry crap. I also don't think scepter is a good idea since a lot of decks are running around with pridemages and predators. I would drop the scepter and jet for manamorphose and Force of Will.

Fireblast is pretty amazing when combined with Kiln or Wee as you can randomly blow up careless opponents that don't try and kill your creatures. Not sure where to put it though.

ktkenshinx

05-12-2010, 11:52 AM

Isochron Scepter is really not a strong card in this deck. Your turn 2 play should be a Kiln Fiend (or even a Goyf/Predator, if you are using some GRu hybrid of the deck). The main point, however, is that you need to play direct and immediate threats in the first few turns, not slow and gradual ones. This deck has been presented like a combo/aggro deck, and a few of its pieces are not contributing towards that end. They are either too slow or too unwieldy. Those cards need to get streamlined out of the deck.

To that end, I propose the following changes to the list (the original one posted by kicks_422)

-4 Gelectrode
+4 Surrakar Spellblade

On turn 4, Gelectrode is going to ping for about 3 damage. On turn 5, he might ping for 2. By turn 6, however, you might be stuck in topdeck mode, and that's no good for the deck.
Spellblade solves this problem nicely. Against decks with more staying power, a double Distortion Striked Spellblade is going to draw you at least 6 cards over the next 2 turns. That's a serious boon for an aggro/combo deck that might run out of steam.

-4 Isochron Scepter
+4 Force of Will

You have at least 20 blue spells in the deck, including Brainstorm, which means that FoW is right at home here. FoW gives you a protection screen against opposing combo set ups (Reanimator and ANT most notably), so your aggro/combo hybrid is not naked as it races out of the gate. Besides, sometimes you actually want to protect your 11/2 Kiln Fiend for an alpha strike. The current incarnation of the deck just cannot do that. This is seriously problematic given that all three of your creatures (Gelectrode/Spellblade included) are in range of Swords AND Bolt, the two most prevalent removal spells in the format.

There has been some debate about Manamorphose and its cantripping ability. The same goes for Ancestral Vision and some late-game draw. Spellblade, combined with the double playset of Ponder/Brainstorm, should solve both of those problems. By the time you cast Visions, you are going to be drawing way more off of the Spellblade than you would off of the Ancestral knockoff. "What if they kill your Spellblade?" Well, if you can force your opponents to commit to killing your draw engine, they are going to be all the more vulnerable to your killing engines. This is especially true if you can FoW even a single removal spell, forcing them to overinvest in killing one creature at the expense of the others. Gelectrode just isn't as threatening as Fiend/Dragonauts, which is why I think he should get cut. Spellblade is a serious beast that cannot be left unchecked.

As to Fireblast, I think the deck is already fast enough as is. Fireblast is going to increase explosiveness at the expense of consistency. With a turn 2 Fiend drop alone, you are looking at a Goldfish win of around turn 4:

Turn 3: Bolt, Jet (5 damage), swing for 7 (8 life remaining)
Turn 4: Distortion Strike, Ponder, swing for 8 (dead)

Fireblast barely improves plays like that, which are already quite possible for this deck to pull off.

-ktkenshinx-

DragoFireheart

05-12-2010, 12:02 PM

To that end, I propose the following changes to the list (the original one posted by kicks_422)

-4 Gelectrode
+4 Surrakar Spellblade

On turn 4, Gelectrode is going to ping for about 3 damage. On turn 5, he might ping for 2. By turn 6, however, you might be stuck in topdeck mode, and that's no good for the deck.
Spellblade solves this problem nicely. Against decks with more staying power, a double Distortion Striked Spellblade is going to draw you at least 6 cards over the next 2 turns. That's a serious boon for an aggro/combo deck that might run out of steam.

-4 Isochron Scepter
+4 Force of Will

You have at least 20 blue spells in the deck, including Brainstorm, which means that FoW is right at home here. FoW gives you a protection screen against opposing combo set ups (Reanimator and ANT most notably), so your aggro/combo hybrid is not naked as it races out of the gate. Besides, sometimes you actually want to protect your 11/2 Kiln Fiend for an alpha strike. The current incarnation of the deck just cannot do that. This is seriously problematic given that all three of your creatures (Gelectrode/Spellblade included) are in range of Swords AND Bolt, the two most prevalent removal spells in the format.

There has been some debate about Manamorphose and its cantripping ability. The same goes for Ancestral Vision and some late-game draw. Spellblade, combined with the double playset of Ponder/Brainstorm, should solve both of those problems. By the time you cast Visions, you are going to be drawing way more off of the Spellblade than you would off of the Ancestral knockoff. "What if they kill your Spellblade?" Well, if you can force your opponents to commit to killing your draw engine, they are going to be all the more vulnerable to your killing engines. This is especially true if you can FoW even a single removal spell, forcing them to overinvest in killing one creature at the expense of the others. Gelectrode just isn't as threatening as Fiend/Dragonauts, which is why I think he should get cut. Spellblade is a serious beast that cannot be left unchecked.

I completely forgot about Surrakar Spellblade. With strike he can easily net you a lot of cards. He's only a 50 cent rare at the moment: he could be a sleeper card for this deck.

The only thing I worry about the curve of this deck is the number of 3 CMC spells. Between Wees and Spellblades, that could clog up the deck a bit.

Anyways, here is a list I propose:

Creatures: (12)
4 Surrakar Spellblade
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Wee Dragonauts

Spells: (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Distortion Strike
4 Force of Will
4 Fire//Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Manamorphose
4 Ponder

Lands: (20)
6 Island
6 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

I prefer Manamorphse over Magma Jet due to it being able to power up your creatures while also not losing any cards or tempo to do so. It also colors fixes in the odd event you have red mana but no blue mana. I also don't like the fact that Magma Jet, while helping you fix your draws, does very little damage for what we pay into it. You said it yourself: this deck has brainstorm and ponders, so subpar draw fixers aren't needed. With Manamorphse, it becomes possible for you to chain a large number of quantity of spells together: casting a Manamorphse into a brainstorm/ponder and then digging for burn is a easy way to get 3 pumps for Kiln/Wee or give a bunch of counters for spellblade.

Mesercus

05-12-2010, 08:32 PM

I think counters are needed more than some bad burn spells or pump cards..you must protect your beaters and block annoyng spells like chalice of the void, trinisphere, counterbalance and so on...i would use fow and spell pierce/daze , consider you can use counters to pump your guys: cast a bolt, pierce on your bolt and pierce (or fow) on your pierce ...so theycould be not dead and do defense/offense :P

kicks_422

05-12-2010, 08:52 PM

DragoFireheart

05-12-2010, 09:15 PM

So I've taken your comments and I would have to agree on cutting Scepter, especially because of Spellblade. I didn't think it would work since it looks so fragile, but adding Forces helped that.

I'm still not sold on cutting Magma Jet for Manamorphose though, mostly because I want to keep 12 burn spells in the deck.

Magma Jet

-2CMC

-Deals 2 damage (Low damage won't kill most things).

- Scrys, which lets you control your draws (Since we have brainstorm and ponder, this isn't needed).

- Doesn't replace itself (This can be bad since once you run out of gas, your creatures will deal less damage).

Manamorphose

- 2CMC

- Lets you readjust your mana color (This lets you get double blue mana off of red mana, which helps combat tempo decks that try to deny you colors).

- Cantrips, which gives it the ability to grab you a Bolt (which exceeds magma jet damage and leaves you with 1 mana open) or another non-manamorphose cantrip (which further boosts your guys and thins out your deck for more bombs) or in some rare cases, another manamorphose (which can truly be devastating to your open if they don't block your creatures).

- As a cantrip, it replaces itself (Acts as a free boost for your creatures without losing cards to do so. This is important since the life blood of this deck is cast lots of cheap sorceries and instants to power up your creatures).

DragoFireheart

05-13-2010, 03:38 PM

I found another card that could prove useful for this deck:

Shadow Rift

It doesn't rebound like Distortion Strike, but it still allows our creatures to attack unblocked (ignoring rogue decks packing shadow creatures) and it also replaces itself. Also, it isn't a dead draw against aggro decks: you can cast it on your opponents creature to simply use the cantrip effect if you wanted.

kicks_422

05-13-2010, 06:03 PM

DragoFireheart

05-14-2010, 07:43 AM

I already mentioned Shadow Rift in the OP. I dismissed it because I don't want to run too many cards that I'll only cast if I have one of the creatures in play. That's my major concern against Manamorphose - it's only good with a creature in play, whereas Magma Jet helps me dig to actually get a creature in hand.

But you don't need a creature out for Manamorphose to do other things. It's a color fixer and a deck thinner that doesn't cost you any mana, and since mana burn doesn't exist anymore you don't need to spend the mana you get back from it. It helps will color fixing against tempo decks or mana denial decks. It's free deck thinning lets us find out bombs more quickly. Finally, it's a free boost for all of the creatures being tested (Spellblade/ Wee/ Kiln).

Magma Jet deals pitifully low damage for it's cost and doesn't replace itself and the scry effect is lacking when we already have Brainstorm and Ponder. Scry is the only advantage Magma Jet has over Manamorphose, which isn't enough in my opinion.

Kangaxx

05-14-2010, 11:41 AM

Magma Jet

-2CMC

-Deals 2 damage (Low damage won't kill most things).

- Scrys, which lets you control your draws (Since we have brainstorm and ponder, this isn't needed).

- Doesn't replace itself (This can be bad since once you run out of gas, your creatures will deal less damage).

Manamorphose

- 2CMC

- Lets you readjust your mana color (This lets you get double blue mana off of red mana, which helps combat tempo decks that try to deny you colors).

- Cantrips, which gives it the ability to grab you a Bolt (which exceeds magma jet damage and leaves you with 1 mana open) or another non-manamorphose cantrip (which further boosts your guys and thins out your deck for more bombs) or in some rare cases, another manamorphose (which can truly be devastating to your open if they don't block your creatures).

- As a cantrip, it replaces itself (Acts as a free boost for your creatures without losing cards to do so. This is important since the life blood of this deck is cast lots of cheap sorceries and instants to power up your creatures).

Burn is essential with Spellblade, Manamorphose isn't. You almost always want to have the board clear before attacking with your Spellblade.

DragoFireheart

05-14-2010, 04:31 PM

Burn is essential with Spellblade, Manamorphose isn't. You almost always want to have the board clear before attacking with your Spellblade.

And Magma Jet is not going to do that. It won't kill Gofys, it won't kill Cats and it sure as hell won't kill other big nasty creatures. Manamorphose at least things the deck to get a Bolt. If it's clearing the field you want, use a better burn spell like Chain Lightning. Echoing Truth or Snap are also better for getting rid of big nasty creatures blocking the way. We could splash white, but I'd rather avoid doing that first.

And you don't need the board clear if you have Strikes anyways. My point is Magma Jet sucks for this deck.

JiggatheOG

05-15-2010, 12:03 PM

I totally agree with Drago, Magma Jet is definitely unnecessary for this deck. With BS and Ponder already in the deck Magma Jet just turns into bad burn. If one really feels the need to run the additional burn I think either Incinerate or Chain Lightning would just be better.

Kangaxx

05-16-2010, 09:23 AM

And Magma Jet is not going to do that. It won't kill Gofys, it won't kill Cats and it sure as hell won't kill other big nasty creatures. Manamorphose at least things the deck to get a Bolt. If it's clearing the field you want, use a better burn spell like Chain Lightning. Echoing Truth or Snap are also better for getting rid of big nasty creatures blocking the way. We could splash white, but I'd rather avoid doing that first.

And you don't need the board clear if you have Strikes anyways. My point is Magma Jet sucks for this deck.

I'm not advocating for Magma Jet. I'm simply stating that that slot should be a burn or removal slot, not a mana accelerator.

ktkenshinx

05-16-2010, 03:02 PM

I'm not advocating for Magma Jet. I'm simply stating that that slot should be a burn or removal slot, not a mana accelerator.
The argument for Manamorphose is not that it's a mana accelerator, it's that it a) buffs the Fiend/Dragonauts/Spellblade, b) fixes mana, and c) cantrips. No one is advocating for Rituals/Rites/Songs here, cards that more narrowly fit the profile of "mana acceleration." That all said, I do agree that a straight up burn spell is better than a cantripping mana fixer.

The best option is probably one of the 1 CMC 3 damage spells used by Burn. We already run Lightning Bolt, so we need to find a suitable supplement. Chain Lightning, normally the obvious substitute, is not as strong in this deck. If your opponent is running red mana and has any untap, you give him free removal of your creatures. Given the dominance of Zoo and Tempo Thresh, that is a real possibility. Rift Bolt is too slow and is not instant speed. Lava Spike is good for the goldfish, but lacks versatility as it can't target creatures.

Shard Volley, on the other hand, seems like a decent substitute. It's versatile like Bolt, and the loss of 1 land is often not noticed. Even if Volley is countered, you won't be completely screwed (as opposed to Fireblast; the difference between 1 land and 2 lands is huge, like the difference between getting hit with a Wasteland or an Armageddon). Volley works both in the goldfish and in the aggro matchup, where you need to take out blockers/threats.

-ktkenshinx-

Darkenslight

05-17-2010, 05:08 AM

Would you ever consideer running Desperate Ritual in conjunction with Lava Spike for an 'oops, I win!' combo with the Izzet mage running around?

DragoFireheart

05-17-2010, 09:38 AM

Shard Volley, on the other hand, seems like a decent substitute. It's versatile like Bolt, and the loss of 1 land is often not noticed. Even if Volley is countered, you won't be completely screwed (as opposed to Fireblast; the difference between 1 land and 2 lands is huge, like the difference between getting hit with a Wasteland or an Armageddon). Volley works both in the goldfish and in the aggro matchup, where you need to take out blockers/threats.

-ktkenshinx-

Shard Volley is an extremely bad choice for this deck. First, we have a few 3 CMC creatures and one of them demands double blue: sacrificing lands makes it harder to play them and sets you back a turn. Second, losing even one land is very noticeable and can be the difference between powering up your guys enough to swing for the kill or falling short a spell. We want to chain a large number of spells to kill our opponent or to draw a lot of cards off of Surrakar Spellblade. Finally, we have a few options to bypass our opponents already: Fire/Ice we can tap their creature or kill some of their smaller creatures. We can simply bypass all of their creatures for two turns with Distortion Strike. With Lightning Bolt, we have reach and can kill 3 toughness or lower creatures. However...

If you honestly feel that the deck demands more removal, then I believe the best option would be to do a minor splash of white and add Path to Exile: we don't really care if they get more land as we are not a tempo deck and Path doesn't give them life like Swords to Plowshares. Path can also give rid of Tarmogoyf of any size or other large creatures that may block the way.

Kangaxx

05-17-2010, 10:20 AM

The argument for Manamorphose is not that it's a mana accelerator, it's that it a) buffs the Fiend/Dragonauts/Spellblade, b) fixes mana, and c) cantrips. No one is advocating for Rituals/Rites/Songs here, cards that more narrowly fit the profile of "mana acceleration." That all said, I do agree that a straight up burn spell is better than a cantripping mana fixer.

The best option is probably one of the 1 CMC 3 damage spells used by Burn. We already run Lightning Bolt, so we need to find a suitable supplement. Chain Lightning, normally the obvious substitute, is not as strong in this deck. If your opponent is running red mana and has any untap, you give him free removal of your creatures. Given the dominance of Zoo and Tempo Thresh, that is a real possibility. Rift Bolt is too slow and is not instant speed. Lava Spike is good for the goldfish, but lacks versatility as it can't target creatures.

Shard Volley, on the other hand, seems like a decent substitute. It's versatile like Bolt, and the loss of 1 land is often not noticed. Even if Volley is countered, you won't be completely screwed (as opposed to Fireblast; the difference between 1 land and 2 lands is huge, like the difference between getting hit with a Wasteland or an Armageddon). Volley works both in the goldfish and in the aggro matchup, where you need to take out blockers/threats.

-ktkenshinx-

What's wrong with Incinerate?

DragoFireheart

05-17-2010, 10:42 AM

What's wrong with Incinerate?

It's somewhat medicore for this deck since we want to cast as many spells as possible in a single turn to power up our creatures. The difference between a CMC of 1 and 2 for this deck is massive.

I'm curious if there are any pieces of equipment worth running in this deck or if we have room for any. Should we try anything janky like Trailblazer's Boots or Whispersilk Cloak?

Benjammn

05-17-2010, 03:38 PM

It's somewhat medicore for this deck since we want to cast as many spells as possible in a single turn to power up our creatures. The difference between a CMC of 1 and 2 for this deck is massive.

I'm curious if there are any pieces of equipment worth running in this deck or if we have room for any. Should we try anything janky like Trailblazer's Boots or Whispersilk Cloak?

Then we would have to run things like Stoneforge Mystic and then firmly add W for Path/Swords/Emerge Unscathed. Sounds like it is trying too much to fit it in.

tprisbe

05-17-2010, 05:46 PM

DragoFireheart

05-17-2010, 05:53 PM

Maybe run more fetchlands and run Plated Geopede as a similar additional effect? While it can't do quite the same potential damage as a Kiln Fiend (or Wee Dragonauts) , it could easily be a 5/5 off of playing a fetchland and using it, and it would further thin your opponent's spot removal.

Plated Geopede is cool but Spellblade is going to be a lot more devastating if it connect, easily drawing you 2+ cards in a single turn.

DragoFireheart

05-19-2010, 02:34 PM

I found a couple more spells that may be useful for this deck:

Soul's Fire

Fling.

Both cards allow us to not only pump our Kiln or Wee but to also deal more damage from them.

Thoughts on those cards?

SpeedOfDark

05-20-2010, 03:13 PM

I think some copies of Flame Slash would replace the magma jets well. Since you are gonna pitch a few burn at creatures almost every game, having 2-4 copies that are creature-only will make no difference (except maybe kill a 3/4 goyf for 1 mana! :O)

NihilObstat

05-21-2010, 07:15 AM

I know all of you are against it, but over 50% of the times I've casted an uncountered Magma Jet, by that saying people fear it, I've looked at my library to find, woops 2 lands!!! And we don't play 12 ponder to shuffle so I really don't think deck manipulation is that simple ever. At least I'll keep playing Magma Jet for the moment.

Boots and Cloak are awesome, but too mana expensive indeed, I think, but a single drop Fling sounds awesome and really Berserk Stompy, hehe, which is the other legacy deck I play ^^

Has anyone tried lava dart at all, or is it really not worthy with the current meta. 1 damage really doesn't seem like much, but the fact that it "rebounds" in the same turn if needed seems interesting...

White splash sounds smart, but I'd like to keep the U/R build just for the fun of those 2 colors ^^

DragoFireheart

05-21-2010, 12:04 PM

I know all of you are against it, but over 50% of the times I've casted an uncountered Magma Jet, by that saying people fear it, I've looked at my library to find, woops 2 lands!!! And we don't play 12 ponder to shuffle so I really don't think deck manipulation is that simple ever. At least I'll keep playing Magma Jet for the moment.

If you want more cantriping, I suggest using something better like Impulse.

Has anyone tried lava dart at all, or is it really not worthy with the current meta. 1 damage really doesn't seem like much, but the fact that it "rebounds" in the same turn if needed seems interesting...

I've thought about Lava Dart but it just seems too weak when there are no creatures out. I'm also not fond of saccing a land for 1 damage.

NihilObstat

05-21-2010, 01:40 PM

DragoFireHeart I understand it, the problem is that if I take out Magma Jet i down to 56 cards I really like, and can't seem to find anything else to fit in.
Could you post what you are currently playing plz ??
I'll try a single fling, or 2 now ;)

Also I guess running 4x Surrakar, also means running 4x Distortion spell, to make sure the guy hits the face??

Vacrix

05-21-2010, 01:54 PM

If you are going to run Fling, then why not splash green for Berserk? It virtually does the same thing except it is 1cc. Are you worried you can't support the green?

NihilObstat

05-21-2010, 05:33 PM

Not really, actually green would be awesome. You get Berserk you get Vines of Vastwood which in this deck, for 1G mana gives you +3 or +2 and Enemy shroud in response to removal, and maybe Might of Old Krosa, +7/+7 for one mana. The thing is, and that's maybe just me, that I'd like to be able to play a R/U deck that works, because every single one I've tried just really isn't good.

I mean the deck is awesome, it's just way too fun and cool when it works well, but it doesn't in U/R, my only protection from removal is FOW, and that's not fun ^^

After testing it all day long Surrakar is deffinitely too slow for the aggro-combo build I'd say....... 2-2 splash with Grim Lavamancer? Any other option anyone has thought about ??

Vacrix

05-21-2010, 06:49 PM

If you are worried about removal, you could always run Misdirection or Divert post-board and get some CA by redirecting it to your opponent's own dudes.

Also, green really doesn't look too hard to support, especially considering you guys already run Manamorphose.

DragoFireheart

05-21-2010, 07:46 PM

Berserk looks like it could work. This would allow us to run Tarmogoyf as well.

RuneB

05-21-2010, 08:48 PM

Since you are already going into green, why not add Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing fire for recursion in direct damage and boost for kiln and dragonauts?

NihilObstat

05-22-2010, 06:47 AM

Misridection and Divertion won't always work, better said, they won't work many times. For the first one you need a blue card in hand, and a target, and for the other they only need 2 mana and you need a target.

So is it gonna have to be Green splash??? Kiln, Draggo, and Tarmo ??? and Punishing for Magma Jet ??? Punishing just sounds a little too Extended for me, but I might try it ;) And Surrakar seems way TOO slow for legacy, specially for legacy aggro-combo.

Could we consider running Sygg, cutthroat for the drawing purpose??? maybe.... and get some 4x alternative 3dmg bolt ??? Chain lightinig and 1x fireblast???

RuneB

05-22-2010, 12:20 PM

I realize punishing fire in itself isnt as powerful as say Chain lightning, I just figured that punishing fire would help prevent the deck from running out of gas. But maybe it is too weak?

Awesome deck idea by the way! :)

Benjammn

05-22-2010, 11:19 PM

Here is another attempt at a UGR list.

// Lands
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
2 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
4 Plated Geopede
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wee Dragonauts

// Spells
4 Distortion Strike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Daze
4 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt

Manabase is a bit of a mess, but lots of fetches means we can run Plated Geopede okay enough. Dazes might need to be something better, but 16 blue cards isn't enough for Force and I don't know if anything is better in it's slot aside from Spell Pierce or something. Daze also interacts with Geopede :tongue:.

chokin

05-23-2010, 12:36 AM

Greenpoe

05-23-2010, 08:26 PM

Have you tried Crop Rotation? It buffs Plated Geopede, Klin & Wee while helping with mana fixing. Grab a fetchland and the Geopede could get +6/+6 if you hit your land drop, +8/+8 if that was a fetch! If he had flying, even Iona would be fodder. You could throw in some utility lands as well like Barbarian Ring or something.

Nicote

05-27-2010, 09:27 AM

Thinking about that burn slot in substitution for Magma Jet...

What about Fork? http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=fork&v=card&s=cname

It's veratile, can answer removal by removing another creature, a counter or just copying your own Lightning Bolt or FoW.

So thoughts about this choice?

Zalren

05-27-2010, 06:55 PM

Doesn't Twincast do the same thing as Fork? Should be more readily available too and pitches to FoW.

NihilObstat

05-27-2010, 07:00 PM

Doesn't Twincast do the same thing as Fork? Should be more readily available too and pitches to FoW.

Hehe, but Fork is just such a sweet old nice card ^^
Fun option to add, I have to say. The only sucky thing in the double color cost in both cards. Twincast being a lot better in this deck of course :P

Kangaxx

05-28-2010, 06:39 AM

My friend built a deck VERY similar to this deck back in 2006. It was basically Wee Dragonaught and burn/cantrip based. He used that double-strike 1:wr: card and the red Giant Growth to rush to victory. Basically, a Bolt would be 5 damage if there was a Wee Dragonaught on the board.

Double Cleave is a really nice card with the deck. It acts like a Berserk for red, I've tested the card in other builds and it's an extremely powerful instant.

Hanni

06-07-2010, 11:38 PM

I originally tried using a Tempo Thresh mold, replacing Mongoose with Lavamancer, Tamrogayf with Kiln Fiends, and the Clique spots (for the lists that run it) with Wee Dragonauts. It was too reactive and was an epic fail.

This is the list I'm playing around with right now. The deck is pretty fragile, so I'm this is probably fail too, but this is what I came up with:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills
4 [U] Volcanic Island
4 [IN] Island (2)
2 [BRB] Mountain (7)

// Creatures
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ROE] Kiln Fiend
2 [GP] Wee Dragonauts

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Fire/Ice
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives

The sideboard is just a random through-together for right now.

I try to use 12 cantrips to help me chain into more cantrips or burn to try and play as many spells as possible a turn to maximize the pump creature effectiveness. I tried to add a little extra burn to clear blockers away or go to the dome if need be (the excess burn actually won me a game against Blue Lands that I would have most certainly lost). Force and Daze are my only protection spells unfortunately.

Fun deck, but I doubt it will ever be anything better than Tier 2 at best.

jrsthethird

06-08-2010, 01:25 AM

Hanni

06-09-2010, 03:19 AM

I have to retract my previous statements about the deck I posted. I've been playing with it a bit and it's actually been smashing face pretty well. I cut 3 Spell Snares from the sideboard for 3 Price to Progress, which have been amazing.

I really enjoy playing the deck. It feels like Tempo Thresh in the fact that it plays a very aggressive tempo-oriented role, except that instead of utilizing manabase disruption, it runs more burn and guys that swing for alot more. I find myself usually only getting 1 big attack with Kiln or Wee before they either get removed or there are too many big guys in play, but at that point, I'm usually able to switch to a burn plan for the win. You'd be suprised how easily it is to build up a heavy burn hand with only 12 burn spells + Lavamancer, when you run 12 cantrips.

I really want to stress that I find this deck to use tempo just as effectively or better than Tempo Thresh. Being able knock the opponent down 7-13 life on turn 3 or 4 just swings a massive amount of tempo in your favor.

I also really like how a turn 1 Grim Lavamancer baits out removal. I find it to be an optimal turn 1 play if my hand is good, because the deck doesn't need to waste cantrips to create card quality when the quality is already good and it sets you up for the ability to burn blockers early without wasting burn in hand, which gives you gas to finish the opponent off with burn later.

What I like the most is how reminiscent this deck is of my old U/G/R Gro deck with Mongoose, Dryad, and Wee Dragonauts. It's literally almost the exact same shell, +/- a few things here and there. It used to be a pretty solid deck back then (pre-Goyf era), and this improved version seems to be pretty solid for right now.

I've been finding the Merfolk matchup to be incredibly good despite running Islands, and I've also beat a few control decks, specifically Blue Lands. I haven't gotten the chance to test Goblins or Zoo. I would assume the deck has a decent game vs ANT since although it has less disruption, it has a faster clock (games 2 and 3 would also get Spell Pierce boarded in). However, I've not tested the ANT matchup. I'm not sure whether Reanimator would be good or bad, but the deck can always board bounce if need be and it has the ability to burn the opponent out if they land Iona on blue.

Anyways, that's all for now. This deck is amazingly fun and I'm very satisfied with my build at the moment. However, my build doesn't run cards like Distortion Strike, and is in fact running FoW/Daze... should my list get posted in a different thread?

NihilObstat

06-09-2010, 09:22 AM

overseer1234

06-09-2010, 11:43 AM

Hi guys!!! I think it's already official but I'm not sure.

Has anyone seen m11's Chandra's flamespitter ???

2R Flying. Gets +3/+0 everytime you deal noncombat damage to opponent 1/3

It could be a really good add to the deck, if it's true. He doesn't get pumped for blue, but he's way too good with burn.

this together with kiln fiend + that untapping red gelectorde like thingy (don't know it's name) that only works for red + grim lavamancer/magus of the scroll = the return of red sligh :D

DragoFireheart

06-09-2010, 02:09 PM

Anyways, that's all for now. This deck is amazingly fun and I'm very satisfied with my build at the moment. However, my build doesn't run cards like Distortion Strike, and is in fact running FoW/Daze... should my list get posted in a different thread?

Post your list. I find the declk somewhat weak without Distortion Strike as it makes it harder for your Kilns to connect. One casting of DS with your Kiln results in 10 damage over a couple turns if they do nothing to either kill the Kiln or counter the DS.

Yes, this deck can smash face. I'm still debating over whether to use Grim Lavamancer or Spellblade. I have found the Spellblade very weak when any creatures blocks it's way or I don't have a Distoration Strike.

Hanni

06-09-2010, 04:25 PM

Post your list. I find the declk somewhat weak without Distortion Strike as it makes it harder for your Kilns to connect. One casting of DS with your Kiln results in 10 damage over a couple turns if they do nothing to either kill the Kiln or counter the DS.

Yes, this deck can smash face. I'm still debating over whether to use Grim Lavamancer or Spellblade. I have found the Spellblade very weak when any creatures blocks it's way or I don't have a Distoration Strike.

My list is already posted on this page, I don't want to clutter the thread with decklists. It's 2 posts above the post you read.

Distortion Strike is as subpar to me as Reckless Charge in Sligh. It's only valuable when you have Kiln Fiend in play, since neither Wee nor Lavamancer need it. It's much better off being burn.

Since the deck only really needs one swing with Kiln Fiend, and between all the burn + Fire/Ice (Ice side), it's very easy to allow Kiln to swing once uncontested for 7+ damage. Getting two swings in is not uncommon at all, should the need arise (i.e the first swing was for low damage). Typically, once I hit the opponent for 10+ damage, all I'm worried about at that point is cantripping into burn to finish the opponent off.

Distortion Strike gives 1 guy evasion. It does essentially the same thing as burn, i.e allow our attacker to swing through, except it's dead without said guy in play whereas burn goes to the dome. I really don't understand the point of it. Maybe it could be the difference between your build and mine that makes it so valuable to you? I don't know.

What I think is just as relevant is the ability for the opponent to simply remove Kiln, rather than have a blocker we can't answer. Distortion Strike does nothing to protect Kiln, whereas burn has other purposes.

Spellblade is awful. 3 mana for an evasionless creature with a 2/1 body is too expensive for Legacy. If you do actually get to succeed in pushing through combat damage one time, before the guy eats removal or is chump blocked by literally anything possible, why not just run Predict? If drawing cards is your game, Predict just seems to be way better with all the cantrips the deck runs. Yes, you lose out on possibily getting alot more cards, but it's more consistent, and games where you are able to draw that many cards, you should be winning that game without Spellblade.

Think of the deck as Tempo Threshold, without the manabase disruption. Your goal is to drop a guy, protect him, clear blockers (or tap them down), and push through some beats while the opponent is off his toes. The difference here is that this deck runs less disruption but needs far less swings to finish the game. A clutter of 3cc spells does not improve the deck. I run only 2 Wee Dragonauts for this reason, which is a solid finisher because of the evasion it has. I see some lists with 4 Dragonauts and 4 Spellblade and cannot understand how this works effectively without being loaded with 3cc spells in the opener. Pitching to Force is not a valid argument to make running so many 3cc spells viable. Even past the opener, this deck wants to be able to cast multiple spells a turn to either pump up existing guys on the board, or to cantrip into burn for the finish, and 3cc spells still clutter the hand.

The deck is very tempo oriented in this approach, and once successful, can switch to a straight burn out plan if it can no longer push anymore damage through with creatures for whatever reason. Spellblade does nothing to aid this plan whatsover, and forces the deck to run subpar cards like Distortion Strike just to be useful.

Grim Lavamancer is a definite must for this deck. It fits beautifully into the decks curve and gives the deck a means of additional removal vs tribal decks, as well as a finisher that goes the distance if the ground is clogged with fatties.

---

That's my stance on both Distortion Strike and Surrakar Spellblade.

tl;dr: I don't think either of those cards are good for this archtype.

---

2R Flying. Gets +3/+0 everytime you deal noncombat damage to opponent 1/3

Very interesting find. Unfortunately, blue cantrips don't pump it any. The deck would need to become very burn heavy, at which point you start to look like Sligh. I don't think a conditional 3cc creature is an improvement to the Sligh archtype, so the only place I see him going is possibly in heavy burn Zoo lists as a replacement for Wooly Thoctar/Knight of the Reliquary.

He doesn't fit in this deck anyway, that's for sure.

Hanni

06-10-2010, 12:31 AM

I know this is a double post, but that's because this is something entirely new:

Preordain U
Sorcery
Scry 2, then draw a card.

Just read that on the M11 spoiler thread. Supposedly it's just in the rumor mill right now at Salvation... but that would be frickin awesome for this deck. I'd replace my Serum Visions for it asap if it's real.

jrsthethird

06-10-2010, 01:43 AM

I think you guys are overlooking Snap.

Remove a blocker, pump Fiend/Dragonauts, and untap lands to play more spells!

Darkenslight

06-10-2010, 04:21 AM

I think you guys are overlooking Snap.

Remove a blocker, pump Fiend/Dragonauts, and untap lands to play more spells!

Definitely in the board, not too sure on the main - probably a meta call.

cypex

06-10-2010, 04:25 AM

hey there!
i like the idea of the deck so i tested a few versions myself. this is the latest build i'm currently running and it seems quite good. it's u/r with a splash of white. i found emerge unscathed really useful, for making your creature unblockable or protect them from removal. swords to plowshares doesn't need any explanations, but in this deck it can also be good to save your ass when you're at low life by removing your own fiend. double cleave and lava dart with flashback are like the finisher.
what do you think of it?

creatures: 10
4 grim lavamancer
4 kiln fiend
2 wee dragonauts

blue: 19
4 force of will
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 fire/ice

red: 8
2 double cleave
2 lava dart
4 lightning bolt

white: 7
4 swords to plowshares
3 emerge unscathed

lands: 18
4 tundra
4 volcanic island
4 scalding tarn
3 flooded strand
1 island
1 mountain
1 plains

Hanni

06-10-2010, 04:57 AM

Cypex, I'm not sure whether you realized it or not, but your deck is 62 cards.

The idea to splash white isn't bad. You gain a little more consistency and longevity with cards like Swords to Plowshares. You lose some of the explosiveness, but that may end up being worth it.

Double Cleave isn't worth it. Yes it makes for a double powered guy, if you manage to have the 2-of in your hand the same time you go for the big strike, but it's unecessary. Being able to keep the guy alive, being able to pump him up in the first place, and being able to attack without getting blocked are more important areas to focus on. This does none of those.

Emerge Unscathed is 10x better than Distortion Strike, IMO. I'm not sure that I'd necessarily run 3, but I'm unsure at this point. 3 sounds like a fine starting point for testing purposes.

Lava Dart is awful. I thought it would be good too, and maybe in a heavily infested Goblins metagame or something, but when you think about it, the double pump is only netting you +1 damage (Wee) or +2 damage (Kiln) vs Chain Lightning, except you have to sacrifice a mountain and it's much worse than Chain Lightning in many other aspects (Chain hits Nacatl's and Kird Apes, does more damage without a Wee or Kiln in play, etc).

I agree that with StP, the full 4 Fire/Ice isn't necessary. Honestly, with StP and Emerge Unscathed, we probably don't even need Fire/Ice at all. The 1/1 split damage is rarely important, if ever. The tap ability was mandatory in U/R, but with StP amd Emerge, the role of attacking through big blockers has pretty much been filled. There are better direct damage spells than Fire. Yea, you lose the cantrip effect from Ice, but the deck should be running a ton of cantrips anyway.

On that note, you really do want to run more cantrips, they are the engine that this deck thrives off of.

Here's more along the lines of how I'd tune a 3c version splashing white:

Lands (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
2 Island
2 Mountain

Creatures (10)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kiln Fiend
2 Wee Dragonauts

Spells (34)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Emerge Unscathed

Possibly -1 Volcanic Island +1 Plains, but I think basic Plains would hurt more than it would help to be honest.

Mr. Forsberg

06-10-2010, 08:47 AM

Here's more along the lines of how I'd tune a 3c version splashing white:

Lands (18)

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
2 Island
2 Mountain

Creatures (10)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kiln Fiend
2 Wee Dragonauts

Spells (34)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Emerge Unscathed

Wouldn't Path to Exile be better than Swords to Plowshares in this deck?

I haven't played it, but it seems to me that this deck wants to get in as much damage as possible as quickly as possible. Giving your opponent more life, by swordsing his/her creatures, seems kind of counterproductive to me.

NihilObstat

06-10-2010, 01:32 PM

Wouldn't Path to Exile be better than Swords to Plowshares in this deck?

I haven't played it, but it seems to me that this deck wants to get in as much damage as possible as quickly as possible. Giving your opponent more life, by swordsing his/her creatures, seems kind of counterproductive to me.

I also prefer Path to Exile, we don't play land disruption anyway, so they'll have their mana anyways, and the life count is really important.

I think you guys might not be taking the Chandra's firespitter seriously, but doesn't Fire deal 2 separate damage, which means, he gets +6 with only 1 card, and he flies.
I'm sure he would be a lot better than Draggonauts, and the fact that you can't remove it to FOW shouldn't really matter.
I really like Emerge Unscathed, so I'll test the three color build for sure, and I believe that Daze ruins out speed a lot. I would take out Daze or Serum Visions from Hannis build, and get Fire/Ice in again.

Who's gonna be the first one to take this to a big tourney ?? Hehe. Good luck to everyone with the fun !!! ;)

Hanni

06-10-2010, 03:07 PM

Yea, it was like 6 am when I typed all that up. The deck is 62 cards, and Swords is junk.

-4 Swords
+4 Path

It still needs to cut 2 spells, not sure what I'd cut though.

jrsthethird

06-10-2010, 04:03 PM

I think you guys might not be taking the Chandra's firespitter seriously, but doesn't Fire deal 2 separate damage, which means, he gets +6 with only 1 card, and he flies.
I'm sure he would be a lot better than Draggonauts, and the fact that you can't remove it to FOW shouldn't really matter.
I really like Emerge Unscathed, so I'll test the three color build for sure, and I believe that Daze ruins out speed a lot. I would take out Daze or Serum Visions from Hannis build, and get Fire/Ice in again.

This doesn't work; Fire either deals 2 damage to a player or 1 damage to that player and 1 damage to another target. In multiplayer, sure, if you target two separate opponents, but it will only damage a single target once.

Hanni

06-10-2010, 04:16 PM

think you guys might not be taking the Chandra's firespitter seriously, but doesn't Fire deal 2 separate damage, which means, he gets +6 with only 1 card, and he flies.
I'm sure he would be a lot better than Draggonauts, and the fact that you can't remove it to FOW shouldn't really matter.

The cantrip engine is what makes this deck work the way its supposed to. Firespitter not getting pumped by cantrips makes it strictly worse than Wee Dragonauts in this deck.

I'd also highly advise anyone thinking about running only 8 cantrips to really consider running 12 instead.

Heresy

06-10-2010, 10:42 PM

It still needs to cut 2 spells, not sure what I'd cut though.

I see -1 Daze and -1 Serum Visions.

AlterEgo

06-16-2010, 03:19 PM

Just had a crazy idea - it's probably complete bulljitte, but might as well be worth a try:

Would it be possible to fit Fiend (and maybe Dragonaut) into a SpringTide-like deck?

I mean the "normal" SpringTide deck needs a storm count of about 15-16 to deck the opponent with Brainfreeze. Kiln Fiend demands only 7 spells to become 22/2. With a Distortion Strike, FIVE other spells are enough to make him an unblockable 20/2.

In an almost completely blue deck (you only need some Volcanic Islands to cast the Fiend) it shouldn't be much of a problem to protect the Fiend for a turn or two.

Turn 1: Island, Ponder/Brainstorm/Whatever
Turn 2: Volcanic, Kiln Fiend (preferably with backup Force)
Turn 3: Island, go off.
(ideally, of course)

jrsthethird

06-16-2010, 04:42 PM

I was also thinking of Kiln Fiend/High Tide. You can run Reckless Charge for +6/+0 and haste, to play everything in 1 turn. Just make sure you have FOW backup for removal. Running Dragonauts, although a slower wincon, it is harder to kill (3 toughness > 2 toughness is negligible, but Grim Lavamancer doesn't think so) and a lot harder to block.

Maëlig

07-04-2010, 06:37 PM

Hanni

07-05-2010, 12:10 AM

Seeing that people have started to include distortion strike or emerge unscathed in their lists, have you considered shadow rift? It performs the same general role, but cantrip seems way better to me than rebound.

I'm still running the U/R list without Distortion Strike or Emerge Unscathed. Similarly to how Tempo Thresh splashed red instead of white for the tempo element of Fire/Ice and Lightning Bolt, I feel that's the way this deck should stay. In fact, I'd argue that those spells are even stronger in this deck than in Tempo Threshold because of how much more aggressive and less disruptive this deck is.

I still firmly believe that cards like Distortion Strike and Reckless Charge are suboptimal.

I agree that the cantrip effect of Shadow Rift seems better than the rebound of Distortion Strike, but I wouldn't run it either.

jrsthethird

07-13-2010, 07:17 PM

Hanni, what is your current list? I'm going to proxy up your latest list (with Preordain instead of Serum Visions) and try it out.

Hanni

07-14-2010, 10:15 PM

jrsthethird

07-15-2010, 02:13 AM

Thanks, goldfishing was fun so far but I haven't played any matchups yet. Good to have a starting point for a sideboard though.

NihilObstat

07-15-2010, 06:40 AM

U/R Explosion

Lands (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Mountain

Creatures (10)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kiln Fiend
2 Wee Dragonauts

Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Fire / Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

Sideboard (15)
3 Spell Pierce
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Price of Progress
4 Engineered Explosives

Hanni, they sure don't play Zoo, Diabolic Edict, or not even Swords to Plowshares in your meta, because this deck is so much fun, but we have to protect our creatures for 1 whole turn at least, if not 2, if we want to win. I just don't get how can you do that with your list in a competitive meta.

SeraphRainy

08-16-2010, 08:49 PM

Hiya guys I actualy made a deck very similar to the original list in standard
obviously no draggo or ponder
but have you considered pyromancer ascention to give your burn spells a bit more punch late game?

perm

08-16-2010, 08:59 PM

distortion strike could actually be useful in this deck.

Also, while chandra's creature look tempting, unless you are running a gelectrode build, it isn't nearly as good as dragonauts or kiln. BUT, in a 12 burn deck with 4 gelectrodes, spitdire could shine.

dsck

08-17-2010, 10:33 AM

Why no Lava Dart/Fireblast/maindeck Price of Progress?

TheMightyQuinn

08-17-2010, 10:07 PM

I'm thinking of trying a more burn heavy version. It would be the same as Hanni's most recent list except:

-4 Force of Will
-4 Fire/Ice

+4 Lava Spike
+2 Fireblast
+2 Rift Bolt

kicks_422

09-22-2010, 01:34 AM

From SOM:

Assault Strobe R
Sorcery

Target creature gains double strike until end of turn.

Awesome.

NihilObstat

01-16-2011, 10:00 AM

Hi, a guy running Pyromancer Ascension combo placed 5th on a 30 people tournament.

He ran 4x Kiln Fiend in the sideboard, and he basically took out Pyromancer and sided in Kiln + Strobe on game 2.

http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiaiak9bE

I would approach the deck how he did, although maindeck:

Creatures:
4 Kilnd Fiend

Pumping spells:
4 Worldly tutor
4 Fire Ice
4 Lightning bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Manamorphose
4 Force of will
4 Berserk (Distortion strike pitches to FOW though...)(Assault strobe?)
2 Spell pierce

3 Lotus Petal

4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
7 Fetchlands
1 Island
1 Mountain

I support this type of build because running too many creatures is completely the opposite of what this deck's goal is. This is supposed to connect a big number of spells together in one turn and go for the win, so everything here are spells, even Worldly tutor will pump a landed Fiend.

THis deck's problem would be something like Canadian, or a lucky guy getting 2 or 3 Wastelands, so I would suggest Pithing Needle, Spell Pierce, Red elemental blast sideboard, to stop wastes and counter Stiffles.
Spell pierce is awesome in this deck. It is an awesome protector for Kiln and it can also screw our opponents combo plans.

Comments, likes, dislikes?

HurpDurpification

01-16-2011, 03:30 PM

Don't forget you can always spell pierce your own worldly tutor just to pump, so I wouldn't be to concerned about playing more. Also you can counter something of theirs thats not to important, and it will tempo them, or if they force back you baited a force so you win...

I think I would probably rather play the ascension version though. It blanks creature removal and now that survival is gone it has alot less hate to have to deal with.

neoryujin

05-24-2011, 08:52 AM

It's been a long time since I visited this deck.

With the addition of New Phyrexia, what do you people think about Gitaxian Probe (a "free" spell, ups the sorcery count, checks your opponent's hand for removal, draws you a card / thins your deck! Got a better bargain?) & Mental Misstep? (Another "free" instant, protects our limited creatures against Swords, Path, Lightning Bolt, etc.)

DragoFireheart

05-24-2011, 09:02 AM

It's been a long time since I visited this deck.

With the addition of New Phyrexia, what do you people think about Gitaxian Probe (a "free" spell, ups the sorcery count, check your opponent's hand for removal, draws you a card / thins your deck! Got a better bargain?) & Mental Misstep? (Another "free" instant, protects our limited creatures against Swords, Path, Lightning Bolt, etc.)

More free spells? Sounds good! I would try to use both as the MMS will give us some protection, while the probe can help us prepare for their removal/counters. Do you have a deck list?

neoryujin

05-24-2011, 09:18 AM

More free spells? Sounds good! I would try to use both as the MMS will give us some protection, while the probe can help us prepare for their removal/counters. Do you have a deck list?

Unfortunately, not (yet). I still have the old version of this deck back home, with Wee Dragonauts, Gelectrode, and Manamorphose.

On paper, every version of this deck would benefit from Gitaxian Probe. And for every version with (or without) Force of Will, Mental Misstep brings more life insurance for your creatures, and your combo.

neoryujin

05-25-2011, 04:45 AM

Ok, so I briefly tested Gitaxian Probe in my casual deck (against some sneak attack deck):

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Manamorphose
2-3 Fire//Ice

4 Wee Dragonauts

18 lands
(and some other cards legacy players don't even bother, like:
Lava Dart
Haze of Rage
Psychotic Fury
Isochron Scepter
Gelectrode
Izzet Guildmage
etc.)

... and Gitaxian Probe (along with other cantrips) did its job to provide a 'chaining' effect, providing me the cards that I needed to win the game earlier (and sparing the mana to cast them). It (and the other cantrips) also made me confident enough to play 18 lands (I'd normaly play 19-20 in this kind of deck), to draw more business spells instead of lands.

Oh, and it can help your not-so-efficient opening hand as well. (On the draw, I kept a one land & one Gitaxian Probe hand, and I still won the game)

Well, that's all I can say, since there is practically zero legacy events in my city.