Cursecatcher

[pingveno]

Cursecatcher

My question is, can you sacrifice Cursecatcher without a valid target? For example to get rid of an opponents Bridge from Below. Thanks

[cdr]

No. You can't ever activate an ability or cast a spell without choosing legal target(s).

[pingveno]

Great, thanks very much

[five]

Hey pingveno, fancy seeing you here. I changed my name to five because I felt like Legacyis#1 would be redundent here lol. I just learned that you can use Burrenton Forge-Tender to destroy Bridges because his sacrifice ability doesn't target. I am also waiting for a response on how Cursecatcher can be used to counter Dread Return before zombies resolve from Bridge's trigger. Perhaps cdr can help us with that, or maybe you know? I thought that the sacrificed creatures hit the 'yard as soon as Flashback is paid, therefore triggering the Bridges before Cursecatcher can be sacrificed in response to Dread Return. People in the u/w Tempo thread say differently. Maybe I'm just an idiot...At least I have been beating Dreadge with out this mysterious tech lol.

[heroicraptor]

Perhaps cdr can help us with that, or maybe you know? I thought that the sacrificed creatures hit the 'yard as soon as Flashback is paid, therefore triggering the Bridges before Cursecatcher can be sacrificed in response to Dread Return.

The thing is that Bridge From Below's triggers have intervening-if statements that stop the triggers from resolving if BFB isn't in the graveyard when the triggers go to resolve. So, while the triggers are on the stack, you could sacrifice Cursecatcher (targeting Dread Return), which would trigger the BFBs exile trigger to go on the stack on top of the zombie-making triggers and Dread Return.

[five]

Okay, after a little research I can see that this topic has been beaten to death already. Sorry for the redundancy. My only confusion now is how are the Bridge triggers able to be put on the stack along with Dread Return? It seems like that once the Flashback is paid, the creatures hit the 'yard and tokens generated, all before the spell is put on the stack. I guess this is more a question on the rulings of playing a spell and Flashback; I now understand BFB and the "intervening if clause."

[DerFern]

It seems like that once the Flashback is paid, the creatures hit the 'yard and tokens generated, all before the spell is put on the stack.
short answer: creating tokens from BFB uses the stack, too. Therefore it can be responded to...
long answer: It does not make any difference whether you play the spell (Dread Return) from your hand or via flashback. To play a spell you need to announce it, choose valid targets and modes (if there are any). The last thing to do before the spell is put onto the stack is pay its cost. So in your example you announce to play Dread Return from your yard, targeting Iona for example. You determine the cost to play the spell, which in case of flashback is sacrificing three creatures. When you do so the spell is put onto the stack and is waiting to resolve.
This is where BFB matters. BFB in your yard sees the three creatures being put into your graveyard, which is the criteria for BFB to trigger. Therefore the trigger of BFB (put 3 2/2 Zombies into play if BFB is in your graveyard) is put onto the stack, too. Since there is already Dread Return on the stack, BFB is put upon it and is waiting to resolve first. Now the active player is getting priority again and if he chooses not to do anything the passive player. This is the moment where the nonactive player could (should!) do something to kill one of his critters (Burrenton Forge-Tender for example). If he does so, there is another trigger (remove BFB from the game).
So at this time the stack looks like this (top to bottom)
-remove BFB from the game
-put 3 2/2 Zombies into play if BFB is in your yard
-return target crature to play
If no player wishes to do anything alse, the first thing on the stack resolves, removing Bridges from the game. Then the second ability resolves. Because of BFBs intervening if-clause it won´t do anything left since BFB is no longer in the graveyard. Lastly, Dread Return resolves and returns the creature to play...

[five]

Good answer! The part that was confusing me was announcing the spell and target before paying the cost. This is something I don't do. Does this mean I should announce a spell before I tap my lands lol? If so, been playing Magic wrong for a long time now.

[cdr]

Good answer! The part that was confusing me was announcing the spell and target before paying the cost. This is something I don't do. Does this mean I should announce a spell before I tap my lands lol? If so, been playing Magic wrong for a long time now.

You don't have to, but it's definitely better to announce your spell and choose targets before paying for it - for a number of reasons. If you care about improving your technical game, get in the habit of announce, target, pay.

[EssKay]

You don't have to, but it's definitely better to announce your spell and choose targets before paying for it - for a number of reasons. If you care about improving your technical game, get in the habit of announce, target, pay.

Can you elaborate on that a bit? I was under the impression that the spell or effect didn't go on the stack until after all the costs had been paid, so there's no opportunity for either player to respond until after the costs have been paid. I'd really like to get my technical game in better shape before the 5K comes to town.

[heroicraptor]

During the Casting a Spell "event" there's a point during which you can activate mana abilities. Most people activate mana abilities, then begin castin a spell, not the other way around.

[4eak]

Can you elaborate on that a bit? I was under the impression that the spell or effect didn't go on the stack until after all the costs had been paid, so there's no opportunity for either player to respond until after the costs have been paid. I'd really like to get my technical game in better shape before the 5K comes to town.

There's only a handful of corner cases where announcing before paying costs really matters in my experience. An example:

2x Darksteel Citadel (tapped), Frogmite, Lotus Petal are in play -- Thoughtcast in Hand.

If you sac your Lotus petal for blue mana before attempting to announce Thoughtcast, you'll only have 3 artifacts in play, making Thoughtcast cost :1::u: (which is :1: more than you can produce). In order to successfully cast Thoughtcast that turn, you'd need to announce Thoughtcast (making it cost a plain :u:), and then pay for it by sacrificing Lotus Petal for :u:.

The usual benefit, in my eyes, is clarity (which is always useful in complex situations).



peace,
4eak

[five]

Wow guys, thanks for opening my eyes. I had no clue that you could play spells in this fashion. I wonder how many people at my local tournaments would pitch a fit if I play spells before tapping lands? Maybe I am the only one who didn't know this small technicality. That Lotus Petal example is awesome, and I love the zombie stopping tech against Dredge. I can't believe I beat that deck with out the tech.

[cdr]

Paying costs after announcing gives you a bit more protection from screw-ups and can make rewinding (if necessary) a bit easier.

If you announce Cabal Therapy flashback targeting your opponent, he can possibly say "hey, I've got True Believer in play!" before you get to sacrificing the creature.

It's rare for paying costs to get very complicated, so it's a minor thing, but I don't think it's hard thing to do it either.