A newbie's guide to making Legacy decks

[RexFTW]

Gentlemen,

This is a primer for people looking to build their own 'rogue' legacy deck. Legacy is a very different format from Standard or even Extended. I hope that this quick article can help new legacy players build their own deck and be competitive.

Please keep in mind that this is not meant to be a comprehensive guide to the Legacy format. It is meant to help people who are not already tournament level legacy players get to that point. If you know far more than is included in this guide you are more advanced than this already. Feel free to add helpful tips to the thread but please do not flame content that is already here.

At the end there is a section for 'budget' card replacements. Please feel free to post additions to the list!

Good Luck,
RexFTW



The first thing you need to know legacy runs a much lower average mana cost in almost every deck. Except for the 'stompy' type decks, cards that costs more than 4 mana are usually unplayable. This means that the average deck will run between 16 and 21 lands. If you play wasteland you may need to play 19 lands even if your curve is quite low.

A note on basic lands:
You should run at least enough basic lands to cast every spell in your deck when you have them all out. For example if I am playing a deck with Jace the Mind Sculpter (costs UU2) I should play 2 islands and atleast 2 other basics (islands or other colors). This way you will not autolose to recurring wastelands.

A note on Sideboards:
If you do not plan to win on or before turn 5 your sideboard should normally contain atleast 4 cards to deal with graveyard threats About 50% of the decks you will encounter will have some sort of graveyard synergy in their deck or will revolve around it. There are 4 major deck archetypes that heavily abuse the graveyard (Ichorid, Agro Loam, Lands, Reanimator).
If you plan to have a chance against combo decks you usually need atleast eight of the following after sideboarding: Force of Will, Spell Pierce, Mindbreak Trap, Duress, Thoughtsieze, Hymn to Tourach, Trinisphere, Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, Chalice of the Void, Thorn of Amethyst, Ethersworn Canonist, Rule of Law, Arcane Labratory, Cursecatcher. If you are trying to race (win on turn 3 or sooner) you can get away with only a single set, usually discard. For every turn past turn 5 it takes you to win, you should add (approximately) 1 more of these cards. Alternatively, you can bring no hate and hope to not face combo.
Remaining slots can then be allocated to problem card/match-ups. There is a list of sideboard cards for each match-up in a later section.

There are 4 frameworks that most decks should run. These make up the "auto include" cards for each color. I recommend you start with one of these templates (dont worry, your deck will still be 'rogue'!).


Blue template:
4 Force of Will
2-4 Daze
4 Brainstorm

Lands:
1-2 Island
8-10 Fetchlands
(combo with Brainstorm!)
4-6 Other lands

Sideboard:
1-2 Tormod's Crypt
1-2 Relic of Progenitus



Black template:
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress or Thoughtseize
3-4 Tombstalker or Dark Confidant (but not both)

Lands:
1-2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (if playing lands that make colorless mana)
1-2 Swamp

Sideboard:
1-2 extirpate
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2-4 Thorn of Amethyst


Combo:
These decks almost always run red or black 'ritual' type cards and should be able to consistently win on turn 3 or contain the cards from one of the above archetypes.Here are some common cards to fight combo hate.
Sideboard:
0-2 hurkyl's recall
0-2 Chain of Vapor
0-2 Wipe Away
0-2 Pyroclasm
0-2 Tinder Wall
0-2 Xantid Swarm
0-2 Carpet of Flowers
0-2 Pact of Negation

Stompy or (3+ casting cost) decks:
If you are not in any of the above categories, and dont win on or before turn 3-4 you should probably be in this category. Decks with a lot of 3-4 casting cost spells work well in this template.

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Simian Spirit Guide or Elvish Spirit Guide
2-3 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
0-4 City of Traitors
1-2 Basic lands

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3-4 Krosan Grip or Aura of Silence or Pithing Needle



Vial-based Tribal Aggro shell

3-4 AEther Vial

4-8 1-Drop of the chosen tribe
4-12 2 Drop
4-8 3 Drop
4-8 4 drop
0-4 5 Drop
(about 20 creatures)
8-12 Disruption spells
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
8-10 Basic Land
1-2 Tribal Synergy Lands (EG Riptide Lab )
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
2 Rishadan Port

Sideboard:
1-2 Tormod's Crypt
1-2 Relic of Progenitus
2-4 Thorn of Amethyst


The "Legacy Good!" test:
How do you know your deck is ready to take to a tournament?

There are two tests you should put your baby deck though before going to a tournament.

Step one of becoming "Legacy Good!" The "auto lose" test
ask yourself "Do I automatically lose the game if my opponent plays one of these cards? Do any of these cards make it almost impossible for me to win? You can expect to face atleast one (and probably several) of the following cards in any game against a solid opponent. They are in order of importance.
Force of Will
Tormod's Crypt
Goblin Lackey
Swords to Plowshares
Lord of Atlantis
Wasteland with or without Crucible of Worlds or Life From The Loam
Tarmogoyf
Counterbalance
Gaddock Teeg
Blood Moon
Magus of the Moon
Back to Basics
AEther Vial
Trinisphere
Chalice of the Void
Price of Progress
Engineered Explosives
Firespout


If your deck can handle all of those cards you are in great shape! Move on to step 2. If you can not handle all of these cards here are some tips for your maindeck or sideboard:

Force of Will
Trinisphere
City of Solitude
Xantid Swarm
Choke (against the deck, not the force specifically)

Tormod's Crypt
Pithing Needle
Null Rod
Wipe Away

Goblin Lackey
Dryad Arbor (Is a forest so can be gotten with fetchlands)
Swords to Plowshares
Lightning Bolt
Innocent Blood
Snuff Out
Llanowar Elf
Cursecatcher
Innocent Blood
Engineered Plague (against the deck, not the Lackey specifically)

Swords to Plowshares
Chalice of the Void
Duress
Mother of Runes
Spell Pierce
Vines of Vastwood

Lord of Atlantis (islandwalk!)
Swords to Plowshares
Lightning Bolt
Fathom Seer
LLawan, Cephalid Empress (against the deck, not the Lord specifically)
Firespout (against the deck, not the Lord specifically)

Wasteland with or without Crucible of Worlds or Life From The Loam
More basic lands
Extirpate
Tormod's Crypt
Pithing Needle

Tarmogoyf
Swords to Plowshares
Diabolic Edict
Perish
Relic of Progenitus
Mind Harness
Submerge
or play no enchantments, sorceries, artifacts or Planeswalkers to keep him small

Counterbalance
Krosan Grip
Aura of Silence
Null Rod for Sensei's Divining Top
Pithing Needle for Sensei's Divining Top

Step 2: Tier 1 Gauntlet
The 3 most common decks at recent big tournaments are Zoo, Merefolk and ANT. If you have a matchup that is 50% or better against 2 of these 3 decks, Congratulations you may be ready for a tournament! If you are having a hard time against them you may want to consider the following cards:

Merefolk:
LLawan, Cephalid Empress
Firespout (red)
Tarmogoyf
Choke
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Silent Arbiter
Engineered Plague
Humility
Moat
Pithing Needle (For Aether Vial)
Wasteland (for mutavault)
Trinisphere (for counterspells)
Xantid Swarm (for counterspells)


Zoo:
There are not many good 'hoser' cards for zoo. Their best weakness is their land base. They have a very consistent aggro/burn plan. The best way to beat them is to simply win faster. However, if you are looking for some strong cards against them here are some things to try:
[cards]Perish
Chalice of the Void X=1 shuts off most of their deck \
Rhox War Monk
Blood Moon
Back to Basics
Firespout (red)
Humility
Moat
Threads of Disloyalty
Mind Harness
Blue Elemental Blast
Hibernation
Tarmogoyf
Swords to Plowshares
Lightning Bolt

ANT:
This combo deck is very fast and consistent. You should be testing against the blue black one not the 5 color as it is the most common, consistent and easiest for your test partner to play well.
Ethersworn Canonist
Thorn of Amethyst
Sphere of Resistance
Chalice of the Void
Trinisphere
Gaddock Teeg
Meddling Mage
Arcane Labratory
Rule of Law
Null Rod
Duress
Mindbreak Trap



Here are the most commonly played Legacy cards, sorted by color. These are take from Deckcheck.net so if you don't agree don't complain to me, send them emails :)

Most common white cards:
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Orim's Chant
Oblivion Ring
Jötun Grunt
Wrath of God
Enlightened Tutor
Armageddon
Serra Avenger
Mother of Runes
Ghostly Prison
Humility
Exalted Angel
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Solitary Confinement
Silver Knight
Magus of the Tabernacle
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Replenish
Moat
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Soltari Priest
Stoneforge Mystic
Steppe Lynx

Sideboard
Swords to Plowshares
Orim's Chant
Circle of Protection: Red
Path to Exile
Jötun Grunt
Seal of Cleansing
Armageddon
Enlightened Tutor
Ray of Revelation
Pulse of the Fields
Aura of Silence
Runed Halo
Rule of Law
Karmic Justice

Most common blue cards:
Force of Will
Brainstorm
Daze
Stifle
Ponder
Standstill
Spell Snare
Counterbalance
Counterspell
Trinket Mage
Mystical Tutor
Cursecatcher
Careful Study
Spellstutter Sprite
Intuition
Fact or Fiction
Cunning Wish
Vendilion Clique
Serum Visions
Predict
Cloud of Faeries
Sower of Temptation
Wake Thrasher
Thoughtcast

Sideboard
Blue Elemental Blast
Hydroblast
Chain of Vapor
Echoing Truth
Submerge
Spell Pierce
Threads of Disloyalty
Chill
Stifle
Back to Basics
Propaganda
Mind Harness
Hurkyl's Recall
Spell Snare
Disrupt

Most common black cards:
Dark Confidant
Dark Ritual
Thoughtseize
Duress
Cabal Therapy
Hymn to Tourach
Tombstalker
Sinkhole
Cabal Ritual
Hypnotic Specter
Smother
Nantuko Shade
Snuff Out
Diabolic Edict
Bitterblossom
Shriekmaw
Smallpox
Extirpate

# Sideboard
Engineered Plague
Extirpate
Leyline of the Void
Duress
Cabal Therapy
Dark Confidant
Perish
Thoughtseize
Ravenous Trap
Yixlid Jailer
Faerie Macabre
Slaughter Pact
Diabolic Edict
Smother
Unmask

Most common red cards:
Lightning Bolt
Burning Wish
Chain Lightning
Grim Lavamancer
Fireblast
Magma Jet
Kird Ape
Simian Spirit Guide
Price of Progress
Siege-Gang Commander
Countryside Crusher
Seething Song
Rift Bolt
Magus of the Moon
Seismic Assault
Rite of Flame
Incinerate
Devastating Dreams
Lava Spike
Blood Moon
Gathan Raiders
Keldon Marauders

Sideboard
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Pyroclasm
Shattering Spree
Pyrostatic Pillar
Pyrokinesis
Ancient Grudge
Price of Progress
Blood Moon
Devastating Dreams
Volcanic Fallout
Magus of the Moon
Sulfuric Vortex

Most common Green cards:
Tarmogoyf
Nimble Mongoose
Life from the Loam
Eternal Witness
Survival of the Fittest
Wild Nacatl
Noble Hierarch
Birds of Paradise
Terravore
Elvish Spirit Guide
Llanowar Elves
Land Grant
Werebear
Exploration
Tinder Wall
Natural Order
Fyndhorn Elves
Quirion Ranger
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Elephant Grass
Priest of Titania
Living Wish
Rancor
Wild Mongrel
Genesis

# Sideboard
Krosan Grip
Natures Claim
Choke
Xantid Swarm
Naturalize
Reverent Silence
Gaea's Blessing
Life from the Loam
Tarmogoyf
Seal of Primordium
City of Solitude
Compost
Tsunami

Most common artifact cards:
Aether Vial
Sensei's Divining Top
Chrome Mox
Engineered Explosives
Lion's Eye Diamond
Mox Diamond
Umezawa's Jitte
Lotus Petal
Chalice of the Void


# Sideboard
Tormod's Crypt
Pithing Needle
Relic of Progenitus
Engineered Explosives
Chalice of the Void
Umezawa's Jitte
Thorn of Amethyst
Ethersworn Canonist
Powder Keg

Common Utility Lands:
Wasteland
Mishra's Factory
Mutavault
Maze of Ith
Academy Ruins
Volrath's Stronghold




Budget replacement cards:

Tarmogoyf, Quirion Dryad, Vinelasher Kudzu
Less Dual Lands, More Fetch Lands, Gemstone Mine
Maze of Ith, Ice Floe
Mishra's Factory, Mutavault
Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal
Imperial Recruiter, Living Wish, Worldly Tutor
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Pendrell Mists, Magus of the Tabernacle
Thoughtseize, Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek
Chain Lightning, Lightning Helix, Incinerate
Karakas, Maze of Ith

[Vacrix]

I think that this could be a great resource for people spamming "ZOMG this thought just popped into my head and I have no idea whether or not its good so I'll just come up with a list real fast and see if it sinks or floats without actually testing anything..."

Yeah. I think that happens quite a lot. Anyway, I think one of the biggest issues Newbs have with building their own rogue deck is that they try to pick cards and then a strategy. It makes way more sense to pick a strategy and then pick cards to suit your strategy.


What you did so far is a great start but I think you could go way more in depth.

[RexFTW]

Thanks for the feedback, you are encouraging me to do more! I will continue to update this over the next few days.

[paK0]

dont worry, your deck will still be 'rogue'!



[/cards]

Yeah, no kidding bout that.


I like the idea, but if you do something, do it right.
1. Be more indepht, why which cards.
2. Provide Examples
3. Things i disagree with:

Daze: Heavie control decks usually don't use Daze.
12 Fetchlands:: Srsly, which deck runs 12 Fetchlands?
Combo: This is useless, Combo deck are fine tunes machines, just providing some random cards isn't going to help anyone.
Trinisphere: Not all Stompys use it Main. Besides, Stompy Decks are kinda locked in their choices, so good luck building a rouge one.

1 more thing: Never ever set Sideboard slots in stone, they have to fit the metagame, not the preferences the community has.

[Vacrix]

Yeah, no kidding bout that.


I like the idea, but if you do something, do it right.
1. Be more indepht, why which cards.
2. Provide Examples
3. Things i disagree with:

Daze: Heavie control decks usually don't use Daze.
12 Fetchlands:: Srsly, which deck runs 12 Fetchlands?
Combo: This is useless, Combo deck are fine tunes machines, just providing some random cards isn't going to help anyone.
Trinisphere: Not all Stompys use it Main. Besides, Stompy Decks are kinda locked in their choices, so good luck building a rouge one.

1 more thing: Never ever set Sideboard slots in stone, they have to fit the metagame, not the preferences the community has.
I agree with paK0. Except... I think that its worth covering conventional sideboard plans against problematic matchups. Rarely do people invent a new combo deck because it is just that, a fine tuned machine. There can be a section though that covers the basic sideboard options ie. Choke vs. U.dec, 3sphere vs. combo, Crypt vs. Dredge/Reanimator, etc.

Also, you should explain the merits of these templates. Legacy has templates because legacy has staples. Nobody is going to play Saltblast when they could just as easily play Oblivion Ring. Instead of starting with templates, it seems more structured to begin by talking about Legacy staples.

[paK0]

I agree with paK0. Except... I think that its worth covering conventional sideboard plans against problematic matchups.

True

I just don't like it how the list includes some SB cards, that makes it look like every deck would absolutely need those, regardless of meta.

[Vacrix]

Yeah especially Carpet of Flowers. Not every storm list plays it. Also, technically Ichorid is a combo deck (though its a system deck much like storm) so having the SB tech you have their doesn't really fit, Rex.

Btw Nightmare deleted this and then undeleted it? I'm guessing its going to get bumped to the Format thread.

[RexFTW]

@Pak0

This is not meant to be a comprehensive guide for playing tournament level Legacy. This is meant to help people get into the format that do not want to play a net deck. Obviously you are a more advanced player. :)

I want to help people avoid the common newbie mistakes like not including GY hate in their sideboard.

[paK0]

Yeah, I know, but I still doubt providing mere shells will do any good.

But I think the test thing is great. A little out of order but one should consider most of em anyways, good job on this =):

[Jon Stewart]

Neat idea for a thread. But what is Thorn of Amethyst doing in the sideboard as an auto 2 of in black based decks.

I've honestly yet to run into a single black deck that plays Thorn of Amethyst in the sideboard. I'm sure they are out there. But it absolutely shouldn't be an automatic slot.

Also, I wish the guide had a little more meat to it.

It's a lot of work, but it would nice if you offered more sideboard options, cards like Fairie Macabre and Leyline of the Void etc.

And if you expanded on the maindecks a bit more to include more of the cards in legacy that are popular (Ponder in blue, StP in white, Tarmogoyf in green etc).

[SpeedOfDark]

hey RexFTW,

I think this is a great idea. As others have mentioned, there is definitely room for a more in depth presentation, but you've already got a pretty solid start. If you are up to the task, I look forward to future updates ;)

[RexFTW]

Sure, I will make a list of most common legacy tournament cards.

[Ozymandias]

According to your template, Goblins isn't a real legacy deck.

[RexFTW]

@Ozymandias This is a guide for making sucessful rogue decks not for existing ones. We all know that dredge and goblins dont fit any of the templates and are real decks. If your deck wins on turn 4 like goblins then you dont need the trinispheres or the chalices (it even says that in the description). However, most rogue decks dont!

[Ozymandias]

You know what, I'll offer some help instead of arguing with you.

vial-based Tribal Aggro shell

4 Wasteland
10-18 Basic Land of the chosen color
1-2 Tribal Synergy Lands (EG Riptide Lab)
0-4 Mutavault
0-4 Rishadan Port
Other lands might have utility, depending on what exactly you're trying to do, but don't get too wrapped up in them or you will get pwned by wastes.
(total: 18-24, depending.)

4 Aether Vial

4-8 1-Drop of the chosen tribe
4-12 2 Drop
4-8 3 Drop
4-8 4 drop
0-4 5 Drop

(total: 18-35, depending.)

The remaining slots should be filled with good cards in your colors for your deck--counters, draw, burn, discard, bounce, Jitte, are some of the usual suspects.

So, for instance, if I were to build Tribal Zombies off this template, I might go with, as a start:

14 Swamp
2 Unholy Grotto
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Carnophage
4 Withered Wretch (Pickings are slim at the 2-spot)
4 Lord of the Undead
4 Death Baron
4 Grave Defiler
4 Undead Warchief
2 Gempalm Polluter (A way to kill your opp outside of the Kombat step is nice)

and then you can play around with the remaining 4 slots

[RexFTW]

Thanks for the feedback Ozy. I made a few updates to your template and added it above.

[Vacrix]

This is shaping up rather nicely Rex. I'm done with finals tomorrow. I'm down to help with this as I have a few ideas I'd like to add that have yet to be addressed, namely sections dedicated to "Why your rogue deck should be played over something else" and "Deck type vs. Deck type" (ie. Midrange vs. Aggro-control vs. Tempo, etc.)

[RexFTW]

Thanks Vacrix. if you create the sections and post them I will add them to the OP.

[heroicraptor]

Regarding Stompy, it usually either plays Wasteland or City of Traitors, but not both.

[jrsthethird]

Great idea for a topic, although some of the cards listed are a little outdated, and some key cards are missing (Stoneforge Mystic is very popular these days, for example). What was your range of the deckcheck search?



So, for instance, if I were to build Tribal Zombies off this template, I might go with, as a start:

14 Swamp
2 Unholy Grotto
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Carnophage
4 Withered Wretch (Pickings are slim at the 2-spot)
4 Lord of the Undead
4 Death Baron
4 Grave Defiler
4 Undead Warchief
2 Gempalm Polluter (A way to kill your opp outside of the Kombat step is nice)

and then you can play around with the remaining 4 slots

From someone who played Onslaught/Mirrodin Standard Zombies, Shepherd of Rot is really good (I guess not with Carnophage, lol). He lets you get through wall of Goyf, especially if your guys can regenerate (I think one of the lords does that but I'm too lazy to check). I used to run Ensnaring Bridge in the deck since with 4 Shepherds and 4 Polluters + a land that recurs them, I could easily win outside combat, so I didn't care how many dumb Beasts or Cranial Platings my opponent had.

Not that this topic is about Zombie lists....hahaha. Good example of a tribal template.

[RexFTW]

Not that this topic is about Zombie lists....hahaha. Good example of a tribal template.

Can a moderator please change the topic to "How to make good zombie decks for legacy" LOLOLOLOL.

[rufus]

The first thing you need to know legacy runs a much lower average mana cost in almost every deck. Except for the 'stompy' type decks, cards that costs more than 4 mana are usually unplayable. This means that the average deck will run between 16 and 21 lands. If you play wasteland you may need to play 19 lands even if your curve is quite low.


At this point, I think you can say that a card must be able to win you the game in 2 turns or less to justify a playing cost of more than 3. There are a couple of niche cards that aren't quite up to that by themselves, like Goblin Ringleader and Ranger of Eos, but those tend to be 'win in 2 turns or less' cards in the context of the decks that use them.

[RexFTW]

@rufus

I agree. most of the CC4 cards in the format are for "refueling" once your hand is played out (ranger and Ringleader) or have a huge impact on the game state immediately when they are played (ie planeswalkers, wrath of god, Sower of Temptation). I believe the latter category is not always "win in two turns or less" but sometimes of "Keep me from losing for 2 turns or more" which seems acceptable as well.

[jrsthethird]

Ice Floe, not 'Ice Flow'.

[RexFTW]

Stickey plz?