New cards from M11

[morgan_coke]

four M11 cards that will also be in Archenemy were spoiled today via Twitter:


Reassembling Skeleton 1B
Creature - Skeleton Warrior
1B: Return ~ from your Graveyard to the battlefield tapped.
Though you may see the same bones, you'll never see the same skeleton twice.
1/1

Plummet 1G
Instant
Destroy target creature with flying.
"You are the grandest of all," said the archdruid to the trees. They became so proud of bark and branch that they suffered no creature to fly overhead or perch upon a bow.

Sorcerer's Strongbox 4
Artifact
2,T: Flip a coin. If you win the flip, sacrifice ~ and draw three cards.
Simun the Quiet filled the chest with his most precious thoughts. But in a fit of paranoia he locked up the memory of where he hid the key.

Chandra's Outrage 2RR
Instant
~ deals 4 damage to target creature and 2 damage to that creatures controller.
"Her mind is an incredible mix of emotion and power. Even if I could grasp it, I couldn't hold it for long."
- Jace Beleren, on Chandra Nalaar

I think the Skeleton is the only one with Legacy potential - some kind of recurring sacrifice engine maybe? But its probably not good enough outside of casual. Maybe Stax or Pox or something, but the 1/1 stats probably make it irrelevant in those.

EDIT: also, as long as I'm posting spoilery stuff, for those who haven't heard, the next DD is Elspeth vs. Tezzeret. No idea what cards will be included as support for them.

[sunshine]

The skeleton is somewhat interesting. Mostly because it lacks the "play this ability any time you could play a sorcery" clause.

[Finn]

Thanks for the info. None of this is going to cut it IMO.

[whienot]

Haha, Plummet might as well read "Destroy target Iona."

[4eak]

I don't like that is comes into play tapped from recursion; it would be a better defensive tool otherwise. Without the "at your upkeep" or "sorcery" clause, it is pretty cool though. I really love strong graveyard mechanics (and I don't consider such things unfair given the impressive array of hate for it). Sadly, it is not efficient enough for the cost. A straight :b: CC and activated ability would have made it perhaps playable in my eyes.

It does break the symmetry of Innocent Blood effects, but I believe there are already many tools which perform that role quite effectively.




peace,
4eak

[(nameless one)]

At first, I thought of Reassembling Skeleton for Dredge, then I realized that it costs 2 mana to reanimate it.

[the Thin White Duke]

The Strongbox is cool. I like to see coin flippin' back in Magic. We need more of that action. And while they're at it, bring back Chaos Orb!!
Anyway, the new duel deck is very interesting. It almost looks like Wizard's "doesn't care about the secondary market" like they try to tell us time after time.

[Aggro_zombies]

I don't like that is comes into play tapped from recursion; it would be a better defensive tool otherwise. Without the "at your upkeep" or "sorcery" clause, it is pretty cool though. I really love strong graveyard mechanics (and I don't consider such things unfair given the impressive array of hate for it). Sadly, it is not efficient enough for the cost. A straight :b: CC and activated ability would have made it perhaps playable in my eyes.

It does break the symmetry of Innocent Blood effects, but I believe there are already many tools which perform that role quite effectively.




peace,
4eak
Yeah, but if it didn't come into play tapped, it would be really, really obnoxious. Like a wall that you can almost never get rid of, basically.

[jrsthethird]

My reaction to the new DD was to put both of my Elspeths on ebay. There's a reason why Ajani Vengeant hasn't experienced the same huge price jump that she has. (Also why Emrakul isn't a $40 card).

Also I can't wait for the Orb of Insight. I need to search 'Baneslayer' and decide if I want to sell mine or not.

[Ciberon]

I don't like that is comes into play tapped from recursion; it would be a better defensive tool otherwise.

You could allways block and return it on the same turn, after blocking. Then it'd be allways untapped to block.
I do not disagree with you, though. Just offering a "solution".

[caiomarcos]

If there is a way to untap lands, generate some mana or bounce something whenever the skeleton is sacced or comes into play, it could be a combo engine. I'm just to lazy to look for something like that.
The interesting part is that it is an ability that can only be Stifled and can be played anytime, very hard to stop once it gets going.

[morgan_coke]

Intruder Alarm + Ashnod's Altar with some Dryad Arbors maybe? The main problem with it as a combo enabler is that it needs like 3-4 pieces to work, which is pretty tough to pull off in any kind of reasonable time frame.

[hi-val]

Aside from the playability of these cards, they are all really COOL. Part of the enjoyment of M10 was the fun of a full-on classic fantasy setting, like oldschool D&D. Djinn of Wishes is a great example of that kind of flavor. Cards like the Reassembling Skeletons and the Strongbox are just really, really neat. I can see a player saying "if I win the flip on my Strongbox, I bet I'll draw that creature I need!" in a casual game of scrubby Magic.

[4eak]

Yeah, but if it didn't come into play tapped, it would be really, really obnoxious. Like a wall that you can almost never get rid of, basically.

I love rich combat phases. Outside of he who should not be named (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Tarmogoyf&v=card&s=cname), Mother of Runes, and very specialized hatebears, I'd like to see more defensive creatures in Legacy. It would require a major leap in the power levels of Walls and other defensive creatures; I don't think WotC will though. My experience in gaming is that developers trend away from control archetypes/abilities/functions/mechanics over time, as there will always be whiners who can't accept a full defensive side of the strategy spectrum. I still cross my fingers hoping WoTC will continue to develop cards like Reassembling Skeleton, only stronger.



peace,
4eak

[Nihil Credo]

It would require a major leap in the power levels of Walls and other defensive creatures; I don't think WotC will though. My experience in gaming is that developers trend away from control archetypes/abilities/functions/mechanics over time, as there will always be whiners who can't accept a full defensive side of the strategy spectrum. I still cross my fingers hoping WoTC will continue to develop cards like Reassembling Skeleton, only stronger.
They printed Wall of Denial in Alara Reborn and people really, really fucking hated it. According to multiple high-level pros, it was half of the reason for Alara block being a terrible format with way too little interaction (the other half of course being Cascade).

The current design rule seems to be that cheap throwaway chumpers are fine (Wall of Cantrip, Khalni Garden, Elvish Visionary, Eldrazi Spawns...), but resilient dedicated stallers are to be developed with great care. It's no coincidence that Bloodghast got the "can't block" clause - apparently the playtest feedback from playing against defensive decks with 4x Nether Spirit On Crack was pretty harsh.

[TheD4edalus]

Plummet makes me sad.

Ionee can't name white and green. :(

[Phoenix Ignition]

Plummet makes me sad.

Ionee can't name white and green. :(

Good thing no one is going to ever run it in legacy then, right?

[alderon666]

Good thing no one is going to ever run it in legacy then, right?

Sure gonna game my Valakut Ramp pile better against Baneslayer... =p

[4eak]

@ Nihil Credo


They printed Wall of Denial in Alara Reborn and people really, really fucking hated it. According to multiple high-level pros, it was half of the reason for Alara block being a terrible format with way too little interaction (the other half of course being Cascade).

The current design rule seems to be that cheap throwaway chumpers are fine (Wall of Cantrip, Khalni Garden, Elvish Visionary, Eldrazi Spawns...), but resilient dedicated stallers are to be developed with great care. It's no coincidence that Bloodghast got the "can't block" clause - apparently the playtest feedback from playing against defensive decks with 4x Nether Spirit On Crack was pretty harsh.

I wasn't talking about non-Legacy formats. With regards to Legacy, very defensive creatures (besides a few exceptions which usually are capable of effectively switching from the control to beatdown role) have little impact. I think very defensive creatures can be developed in such a way that they would promote interactivity and depth of strategy in Legacy as well. Even a Bloodghast that could block would not be OP in Legacy (I'd gladly have accepted a warped/boring T2 for it, hehe); although, I'd probably be running Relic main more often in such a world.




peace,
4eak

[Malchar]

The skeleton could be useful with Contamination

[heroicraptor]

Chandra's Outrage is pretty cool. Creature removal and reach in one card is not bad. Definitely not legacy playabale though.

[Aggro_zombies]

I wasn't talking about non-Legacy formats. With regards to Legacy, very defensive creatures (besides a few exceptions which usually are capable of effectively switching from the control to beatdown role) have little impact. I think very defensive creatures can be developed in such a way that they would promote interactivity and depth of strategy in Legacy as well. Even a Bloodghast that could block would not be OP in Legacy (I'd gladly have accepted a warped/boring T2 for it, hehe); although, I'd probably be running Relic main more often in such a world.
Yeah, except then your opinion is totally irrelevant because Wizards developers work primarily with Standard and Limited in mind, and a wall that is literally impossible to get rid of is pretty obnoxious in those formats. The cards you want for Legacy would never be purposefully printed because they would make Standard and draft too annoying for most players, and the vast majority of players who play tournament formats fall into either Standard or draft.

The other issue is that the blocker you want basically already exists, and it's called Maze of Ith. I'm pretty sure there aren't a lot of people out there that would argue that Maze promotes strategic depth in combat. Like, maybe for the defending player, but for the attacking player it's pretty clear that he'd better have a backup big guy or it's not worth it. A Maze of Ith that could attack wouldn't really add strategic choices in most cases, because a lot of players would keep it at home if the opponent had something scary and send it in if he didn't. That's just like a regular dork, except this one is super frustrating to play against.

EDIT: Although I guess it's just differently frustrating than what Legacy is currently trending towards, which is, "Let's see who can dump the biggest fatty into play the fastest."

[Pltnmngl]

Haha, Plummet might as well read "Destroy target Baneslayer Angel."

Fixed that for you. lol

Is is bad that Plummet is the only card that interested me?

[4eak]

@ Aggro Zombies


Yeah, except then your opinion is totally irrelevant because Wizards developers work primarily with Standard and Limited in mind...The cards you want for Legacy would never be purposefully printed because they would make Standard and draft too annoying for most players, and the vast majority of players who play tournament formats fall into either Standard or draft.

Be fair -- I did explicitly state in my opinion that Wizards would probably never develop such a thing (which is pretty much what you've stated). If my opinion is totally irrelevant, including the previous statement, then so is yours, right?

I'm fully aware of why Legacy doesn't see a ton of format defining defensive cards. My "hope for defensive Legacy" playable creatures, which I was clear to state was unlikely, should not require further justification. I don't think I'm hoping for the impossible either though (despite its unlikelihood). Plenty of unlikely and broken cards have been printed, despite developer intentions, and it isn't unreasonable to hope for "mistakes" which turn out to be strong defensive cards in Legacy.


a wall that is literally impossible to get rid of

This, of course, is not what I am seeking in Legacy either.

Strong defensive cards don't have to be impossible to answer. Either you've misunderstood my point or I wasn't clear enough in explaining it. I'll assume it was my fault.

Here is an example defensive card above the usual power curve that would see play in Legacy (and really isn't anything like Maze of Ith):

:wu::wu: -- 3/3
Defender
Protection from Red
At the end of each of your opponents' turns, you my pay :wu::wu:. If you do, Draw a card.

Far from broken in Legacy, but certainly a gamechanger. There is much more to the possible defensive spectrum than raw P/T and Shroud or Recursion.

As I said before, the barrier to good defensive creatures in Legacy isn't just the power curve, but also that game developers trend away from equal implementation of control features in a game (as compared to the offensive spectrum) because it frustrates impatient players.



peace,
4eak

[bowvamp]

Ok, sorry that this is kinda a tangent, but I've thought long and hard about walls. Yeah, it might clog up block, but we really need a couple things that aren't seen very often:
a) 1cc creatures with powerful effects (two that I know of are Lavamancer and Mother of Runes)
b) Good walls
c) Better ways to deal with artifacts & enchantments in black (ok, yeah it's focused, but I really think it's an issue)
Introducing:

Ungodly Phalanx
B
Creature - Soldier
Defender
Tap: Target artifact or enchantment phases out, you lose two life, play this ability any time you could play a sorcery.
1/2

But aside from fantasy cards, this new set looks very... casual. Seriously, black already has much better creature recurrence. Red already has better burn spells. Better draw already exists in the form of: Etched Oracle, Jayemade Tome (yeah, I said it). Seriously nothing to get excited about here.

[anonymos]

I would like to point out that M11 is Tournament Legal as of it's release event on July 16-18, 2010.

That makes M11 legal for GP Columbus if I am understanding this correctly.

[Vacrix]

I would like to point out that M11 is Tournament Legal as of it's release event on July 16-18, 2010.

That makes M11 legal for GP Columbus if I am understanding this correctly.
Sure it will be legal but we don't really have enough info on the set either way to decide if anything in it will be played. So far I'm very pessimistic about it.

[Aggro_zombies]

Sure it will be legal but we don't really have enough info on the set either way to decide if anything in it will be played. So far I'm very pessimistic about it.
Plummet has the potential to be a (very narrow) answer to Iona, but it probably fucks up your mana less than trying to run Karakas. I don't think it's good enough, especially if you're in Bant (Echoing Truth much?), but it's an option for janky decks that only have reasonable removal in one color.

Of course, that doesn't stop the Reanimator player from just getting Inkwell instead, but you can't win them all.

I guess it's not completely narrow since it also answers Clique, Tombstalker, Trygon Predator, Coralhelm Commander, and...um...Mystic Enforcer?

[Vacrix]

Plummet has the potential to be a (very narrow) answer to Iona, but it probably fucks up your mana less than trying to run Karakas. I don't think it's good enough, especially if you're in Bant (Echoing Truth much?), but it's an option for janky decks that only have reasonable removal in one color.

Of course, that doesn't stop the Reanimator player from just getting Inkwell instead, but you can't win them all.

I guess it's not completely narrow since it also answers Clique, Tombstalker, Trygon Predator, Coralhelm Commander, and...um...Mystic Enforcer?
But would we expect to see this as something in the board? Surely its not good enough to be found in any MD, considering how dead it is against so many decks.
In that case, if its boarded in against reanimator for Iona, I'd expect to see preventative measures taken to avoid that situation entirely, ie. gravehate. Gravehate is a much stronger choice than this and I don't think that its application to matchups with the other fliers you mentioned justifies its position in a board. Might Zoo play it? Eh I don't know. I think that its too narrow and the opportunity cost of playing it is giving up space in your board against other matchups. Even against Zoo, your opponent can find Sphinx, which has pro-green so Plummet is purely an answer to Iona.

My guess is that Plummet will receive more attention in standard.

EDIT:
Solidarity has issues against Iona. Maybe we will see a singleton played in a Cunning Wish toolbox, "Iona, respond--> Cunning Wish, it resolves --> Plummet" I'm playing a green splash now, so if anything I could surprise the fuck out of someone. :D

[Wyrath the Great]

Plummet has the potential to be a (very narrow) answer to Iona,(...) but it's an option for janky decks that only have reasonable removal in one color.

I wouldn't call Eva Green a janky deck, but sure, it's a narrow answer to most decks.

EDIT:

It does get better from the fact that it can smoke your own Abyssal Persecutor, though. Or not.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Well, at least Plummet also hits Tombstalker, I guess.

[Aleksandr]

As I said before, the barrier to good defensive creatures in Legacy isn't just the power curve, but also that game developers trend away from equal implementation of control features in a game (as compared to the offensive spectrum) because it frustrates impatient players.



peace,
4eak

This. Thousand times.

I won a few games I had not to win, just because my opponents were impatient and they lost to their own nervosity. And as long as most of the WOTC's audience are litle kiddies, kitchen-table players and teenagers, they won't print too many defensive/control cards anymore...

[Vacrix]

This. Thousand times.

I won a few games I had not to win, just because my opponents were impatient and they lost to their own nervosity. And as long as most of the WOTC's audience are litle kiddies, kitchen-table players and teenagers, they won't print too many defensive/control cards anymore...
Not necessarily. I think that WoTC is smarter than we give them credit. They know that veterans still play Legacy. They might take that into account. Certainly they've been thinking about Legacy a little more than usual.

[Wyrath the Great]

I think that WoTC is smarter than we give them credit.

I certainly hope so.

Still, using the word "smart" in the same sentence as names such as Mark Rosewater, Doug Beyer or Ken Nagle seems a bit absurd.

[Skeggi]

Hey guys, I came up with the following idea for

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=105810&d=1275064856

Next to the fact that you can obviously recur it multiple times at high mana cost, it seems to combo with Ashnod's Altar (recur via Dread Return => Sharuum the Hegemon?) and you also need Initiates of the Ebon Hand to get endless Bridge from Below tokens.

Would it be any good? Or is it too elaborate? Is there an easier way to abuse the Reassembling Skeleton?

[Vacrix]

Hey guys, I came up with the following idea for

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=105810&d=1275064856

Next to the fact that you can obviously recur it multiple times at high mana cost, it seems to combo with Ashnod's Altar (recur via Dread Return => Sharuum the Hegemon?) and you also need Initiates of the Ebon Hand to get endless Bridge from Below tokens.

Would it be any good? Or is it too elaborate? Is there an easier way to abuse the Reassembling Skeleton?
Sounds janky to me. All those cards are really bad if they aren't working together; however, it would be a hilarious casual black deck worth less than 50 cents.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Is it just me, or is Elspeth vs. Tezzeret more exciting than any of this crap, since it will automatically drive the price on Elspeth back down to a reasonable level? (Or am I just bitter because I don't own any at the moment?)

[denial]

Is it just me, or is Elspeth vs. Tezzeret more exciting than any of this crap, since it will automatically drive the price on Elspeth back down to a reasonable level? (Or am I just bitter because I don't own any at the moment?)

Dunno. Wizards is so cheap sometimes, I could totally see them printing this and it not containing either. For $19.99 msrp, I could see it coming with an elspeth and tezzeret token or something.

[dahcmai]

Eh, they bothered to make new art for them so they are probably in there. Now we just need to have a video game promo and some other promo to lower the value to the point where no one cares.

[(nameless one)]

As the official budget mascot, I approve the Elspeth vs Tezzeret duel decks.

[denial]

Eh, they bothered to make new art for them so they are probably in there. Now we just need to have a video game promo and some other promo to lower the value to the point where no one cares.

Yes, and then reprint them in M11 as well. Even so, I could still see all the resellers trying to get top dollar for their original shards copies.

[Aggro_zombies]

Is it just me, or is Elspeth vs. Tezzeret more exciting than any of this crap, since it will automatically drive the price on Elspeth back down to a reasonable level? (Or am I just bitter because I don't own any at the moment?)
Elspeth is only high right now because it sees play in various UW/x control decks in Standard. It was worth a lot less prior to that ($25-$30), and the value will probably drop anyway when Alara rotates becuase it doesn't get a lot of play in other formats.

It will stay around $20-$25 or so, but I doubt it will hold its current $40 price tag for long (unless reprinted in M11, which would make me sad).

[DuxDucis]

Fireball Lightning Bolt and Baneslayer Angel back for M11 as well as the "dual" lands. Dragonskull Summit etc

Full article here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/93

Several cards not making the cut...

[jrsthethird]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/93

So from this article, we have, in M11:

Fireball
Lightning Bolt
M10 duals
Baneslayer Angel (no need to sell them off yet!)

Open the Vaults will not be back, since the Esper goodness won't be in Standard anymore. But, the fall set is Scars of Mirrodin, which one would assume is an artifact block, so wouldn't there be a lot of good stuff in there to use with OTV? Or is it that the concentration of good artifacts in Scars will make OTV ridiculously powerful?

Mold Adder comes up short in the cycle with Deathmark, Celestial Purge, and Flashfreeze, so we can assume that those 3 will be back while green gets a (third) new component to the cycle. No mention of Ignite Disorder, maybe it will have the same fate?

Also, not being reprinted:

Twincast
Divination (maybe they'll reprint Counsel of the Soratami instead...ha)
Essence Scatter (hello, Remove Soul!)
Shivan Dragon
Planar Cleansing

[Aggro_zombies]

Maybe Bankslayers will go down to a reasonable price and I'll finally be able to afford to pick them up.

EDIT: Open the Vaults would probably end up being OP. We might see another artifact-specific card in the set, though, so it's too early to rule it out. It likely won't be something that effectively reads ":4::w::w:: Recover from all sweepers your opponent has played this game. Laugh."

[bakofried]

Vampires have a 3cc lord. Don't know what to think of this.
Captivating Vampire
1BB
R
Other Vampire creatures you control get +1/+1
Tap 5 untapped vampires you control: gain control of target creature. It is now a vampire in addition to it's other types.
2/2

[Aggro_zombies]

Vampires have a 3cc lord. Don't know what to think of this.
Captivating Vampire
1BB
R
Other Vampire creatures you control get +1/+1
Tap 5 untapped vampires you control: gain control of target creature. It is now a vampire in addition to it's other types.
2/2
Now we just need two more playable lords, and some playable non-lords, and we have a deck that wishes it was Merfolk or Goblins, but isn't!

EDIT: In all seriousness, though, the last ability will basically always be irrelevant given how aggressive Vampires are supposed to be. That basically means you've got just a +1/+1 bonus on a standard lord body, which makes it worse than every other lord ever printed (possibly excepting Zombie Master). At least Nocturnus gave flying.

[bakofried]

I would argue that it doesn't necessarily lack for lords, but it does lack card advantage. It's really the same argument, why not just run MBA or some such. I think that if they print some form of CA for Vamps, they might be viable. Otherwise, no.

[Aggro_zombies]

I would argue that it doesn't necessarily lack for lords, but it does lack card advantage. It's really the same argument, why not just run MBA or some such. I think that if they print some form of CA for Vamps, they might be viable. Otherwise, no.
It's not that Vampires don't have card advantage, it's that their card advantage doesn't do anything else. Night's Whisper, Sign in Blood, Ancient Craving, Phyrexian Arena, and the like all simply convert life to cards for some amount of mana.

Goblin Ringleader and Goblin Matron are Fact or Fiction and Demonic Tutor, respectively, except they leave behind warm bodies.

Standstill arguably disrupts opponents by disincentivising them from playing spells. This argument is pretty weak, and the more relevant one is that it's three cards for two mana as opposed to two cards for two mana and two life, the best black has to offer.

Black has the best targeted removal in the format after Swords and Path. Granted, those spells are all really weak compared to those two, but Merfolk and Goblins both get along fine without (much) removal - although in Goblins' case, the removal spells are all Goblins.

Discard is awful after turn three or four, and in some matchups is awful as soon as turn two. Counters are much better, but Goblins runs neither counters nor discard.

Vampires have card advantage, but they don't have good card advantage. They'll basically always be worse than Goblins (superior synergy) and Merfolk (superior disruption).

[bakofried]

Although they may be able to compensate for the lack of synergy and lack of disruption with superior bodies - Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, and Hexmage are all very strong. Give them some tribal incentive, and it may be enough to make them a somewhat viable deck.

[Vacrix]

Vampires have a 3cc lord. Don't know what to think of this.
Captivating Vampire
1BB
R
Other Vampire creatures you control get +1/+1
Tap 5 untapped vampires you control: gain control of target creature. It is now a vampire in addition to it's other types.
2/2
The ability is mediocre. It might be playable if they print a Siege-gang-esque creature that gives you some tokens.

[bakofried]

I'm not looking at the second ability. Honestly, I just see it as a 3cc lord which pumps Vamps. that was really the only necessary incentive. He's decent. Not amazing, but decent.

[majikal]

Essence Scatter (hello, Remove Soul!)

I'm thinking Counterspell, myself.

[(nameless one)]

No Planar Cleansing on M11, I guess we'll see Day of Judgment instead.

[jrsthethird]

I'm thinking Counterspell, myself.

I was being sarcastic, since Remove Soul is functionally equivalent to Essence Scatter. They just printed Deprive, do you really think they're going to make a stronger version of that?


No Planar Cleansing on M11, I guess we'll see Day of Judgment instead.

I suppose, but it wouldn't make sense because DoJ will already be legal for the entire time M11 is legal in Standard.

[(nameless one)]

I suppose, but it wouldn't make sense because DoJ will already be legal for the entire time M11 is legal in Standard.

They might do it for draft purposes.

On the new vampire lord:

I am guessing that we will not see Vampire Nocturnus again?

[Aggro_zombies]

I suppose, but it wouldn't make sense because DoJ will already be legal for the entire time M11 is legal in Standard.
Cancel is currently in Shards, Zendikar, and M10.

Naturalize is in Zendikar and M10.

There are others as well whose names escape me. However, it certainly isn't new for them to reprint something currently in Standard, although it might be new to do it at the rare level.

[sigfig8]

I don't think anyone's commented on Twincast yet. Could it be they are reprinting Fork? If so, would it really matter? I'd suspect Fork's value to drop at that point, much like Twincast did. Unless they print Fork at Mythic, which would be stupid.
A
As for essence scatter's removal - I agree counterspell won't be reprinted. I think having counterspell AND deprive in standard would just be begging for control to dominate. More likely they reprint deprive again or maybe stick with mana leak?

[Vacrix]

There are some new cards in the MTGS spoiler (it went from 34 to 52). Nothing to get excited about though. Just fluff.

[Aggro_zombies]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=248154

This card was just spoiled. Unremarkable except for the fact that Scry is apparently fine for the core sets, which is completely awesome.

[Vacrix]

That card is pretty hilarious with Crystal Shard.

[morgan_coke]

I think Sylvan Ranger is a new card that has an outside chance at seeing some corner case legacy play.

It's an Elf. It's 2 mana. It gets another card. I think its slightly worse than Sakura-Tribe Elder, which doesn't itself see a bunch of play right now, but the fact that the body sticks around to carry equipment or sacrifice itself to Cabal Therapy or something is probably about as relevant as StE's ability to nuke Bridge from Belows.

For reference:
Sylvan Ranger
1G
Common
Creature - Elf Scout
When ~ enters the battlefield, search your library for a basic land card and put that card into your hand. Shuffle.

[Valtrix]

I don't think it will see play because legacy decks don't really need to spend 2 mana to get just a 1/1 with a land. The first reason is that especially turn 2 (when this guy would probably be best), they'll want to be doing something better by being more aggressive, or interacting with the opponents board. The second reason is that most decks would still function fine on 2 mana, and in fact would probably just want a land over this if they really wanted that land. Also, there's just better 2cc creatures that get you card advantage anyway: dark confidant, stoneforge mystic, elvish visionary (which doesn't see play), etc.

[Nightmare]

It says "into your hand," not "onto the battlefield." AKA, this is not acceleration. That means it is pretty much 100% worse than STE, in all practical applications of the card. The thing that makes Rampant Growth good is that it gives you 4 mana on turn 3. The thing that makes Sylvan Scrying good is that it finds you Urza's Tower. This does neither.

[rleader]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=248154

This card was just spoiled. Unremarkable except for the fact that Scry is apparently fine for the core sets, which is completely awesome.

I won't be satisfied until Hellbent is evergreen.

[Eddy Wally]

Dunno. Wizards is so cheap sometimes, I could totally see them printing this and it not containing either. For $19.99 msrp, I could see it coming with an elspeth and tezzeret token or something.

Printing any card would cost WOTC a fraction of a dollarcent. Being cheap has nothing to do with their reprint policies.

[coraz86]

It says "into your hand," not "onto the battlefield." AKA, this is not acceleration. That means it is pretty much 100% worse than STE, in all practical applications of the card. The thing that makes Rampant Growth good is that it gives you 4 mana on turn 3. The thing that makes Sylvan Scrying good is that it finds you Urza's Tower. This does neither.

QFT.

Would that it had said 'forest card' so it could grab duals/shocks; I played the hell out of Yavimaya Dryad when it was in Standard because it could grab shocklands.

[ktkenshinx]

Spoiled on the MTGS Rumor Mill

Preordain U
Sorcery
Scry 2, then draw a card.

Serum Visions improved. Some ANT builds have been using Visions, but the ability to Scry after the draw seems largely inferior to a pre-draw Scry. Without running any numbers or tests, this still seems slightly inferior to Ponder. Does that mean it doesn't have a place in Legacy?

Diminish U
Instant
Target creature becomes 1/1 until end of turn.

One mana for virtual removal? In blue? The 3 CMC snakeform sees no play whatsoever, but at 1 CMC (minus the loss of abilities), it might be good enough to get a slot in some decks. This effectively functions as a 1 CMC Tarmogoyf killer in blue decks that have blockers (for those who are skeptical of this ruling, see Comp Rules 613.1 - 613.3e).

-ktkenshinx-

[Aggro_zombies]

FUNCTIONAL REPRINT OF KODAMA'S REACH YAUSSSSS

Also, Serum Visions being upgraded is pretty awesome. I'm already psyched about this set.

[Hanni]

Wow, Preordain is awesome. I hope that is true and not just rumor. They keep printing all kinds of amazing cantrips, I love it. Compare it to just a few years ago when Threshold was using Portent and Serum Visions, and some decks had considered Opt and Sleight of Hand.

I'm playtesting a U/R aggro/control deck right now that uses 12 cantrips, and the 4 Serum Visions will become this card instead. Sweet.

[bakofried]

I think Mono-Green Stompy got a new toy:
Garruk's Companion
GG
C
Trample
3/2

[Aggro_zombies]

I think Mono-Green Stompy got a new toy:
Garruk's Companion
GG
C
Trample
3/2
Since this is inevitable, let's get it out of the way:

It's worse than Tarmogoyf for the same CMC.

Also, how does this solve any of that deck's problems?

[DragoFireheart]

Spoiled on the MTGS Rumor Mill

Preordain U
Sorcery
Scry 2, then draw a card.

Serum Visions improved. Some ANT builds have been using Visions, but the ability to Scry after the draw seems largely inferior to a pre-draw Scry. Without running any numbers or tests, this still seems slightly inferior to Ponder. Does that mean it doesn't have a place in Legacy?





The thing about ponder is you let luck decide if you get a better card or not. Ponder can dig a bit deeper, but this is better at getting rid of bricks: the scry ensures you won't see them again until you crack a fecthland. Futhermore, I believe this has much better synergy with Brainstorm since you can dump the junk from your hand after a brainstorm and drop it at the bottom of your library.

I am getting four of these by the way. Wizards is giving blue lots of love lately between this and Jace 2.0.

[kicks_422]

Since this is inevitable, let's get it out of the way:

It's worse than Tarmogoyf for the same CMC.

Also, how does this solve any of that deck's problems?

Well, the trample is a big thing, along with the high power. It might not push the deck to Tier 1.5, but I think it's a definite addition.

[MMogg]

Wow, Preordain is awesome. I hope that is true and not just rumor. They keep printing all kinds of amazing cantrips, I love it. Compare it to just a few years ago when Threshold was using Portent and Serum Visions, and some decks had considered Opt and Sleight of Hand.

I'm playtesting a U/R aggro/control deck right now that uses 12 cantrips, and the 4 Serum Visions will become this card instead. Sweet.

Aren't 12 cantrips overkill? :confused: Are you finding it effective?

I miss Opt and that's still one of my favourites, mostly because it's an instant. I too love these kinds of spells, but not so much at sorcery speed. This could have easily been made an instant and not been insane. *sigh*

[heroicraptor]

It's nice that all the <Planeswalker's> cards mesh so well. Obvious, yes, but flavorful (dunno if that's the right word).

[Hanni]

Aren't 12 cantrips overkill? Are you finding it effective?

It uses Kiln Fiend and Wee Dragonauts, so no it's not overkill, and yes it's effective.

[DrJones]

The new megrim and the milling enchantment look great, the white dude that grows every time you gain life looks like the best white two drop ever. The goblin is also very interesting, and I like the new basilisk (much better than the treefolk that used to be in that spot). This core set will be definitely worth buying, and it's the first time I say it since 4th edition.

[MMogg]

It uses Kiln Fiend and Wee Dragonauts, so no it's not overkill, and yes it's effective.

But, regarding that one deck, you yourself said:


Fun deck, but I doubt it will ever be anything better than Tier 2 at best.

So, although the new cantrip is cool, like so many other cool and interesting cards, it will probably be a third choice after Brainstorm and Ponder, making it a very niche card only usable in a tier 2.5 deck that wants to pack 12 cantrips. :laugh:

[DragoFireheart]

But, regarding that one deck, you yourself said:



So, although the new cantrip is cool, like so many other cool and interesting cards, it will probably be a third choice after Brainstorm and Ponder, making it a very niche card only usable in a tier 2.5 deck that wants to pack 12 cantrips. :laugh:


Preordian could easily replace Ponder.

[Arsenal]

Preordain looks to be on par with Ponder. Both cards net 0, both cards setup your next turns, and both allow you to draw an unknown card. However, Ponder leaves a lot more to chance if you shuffle away chaff, whereas Preordain guarantees you won't see that specific chaff until at least your next shuffle effect.

[Nightmare]

Ponder allows you to set up your top three better, as well, by allowing you to "draw the card first," in a way. With Preordain, you're looking at somewhere between the top 2 and top 3 cards, depending on what your Scry choices are. If you choose top, top, draw, then you look at top 2. If you choose top, bottom, draw then again, top 2. If you choose bottom, bottom, draw, it's top 3, but you don't get a known card. There's no way for you to know the second card from the top after the card resolves, which you can do with Ponder. Granted, if one of the two is awesome and the other sucks, you're stuck with none or both with Ponder, whereas Preordain gets you just what you want. They both have advantages and drawbacks (obviously), but I'd say in decks where you're looking to manipulate the top cards of your deck for advantage (CB decks, Bob decks), you'd rather have Ponder, and when you're digging for specific cards, it's close to a toss up. The fact that Ponder can potentially draw "one card deeper" - although I have my own reservations about putting it in that specific way - may give it the edge, but the selectivity of whether you get the goods or the bads of Preordain makes me want to try it out before outright calling Ponder the better card.

I'll say this much - had they printed this before Ponder, we'd all have been playing this over Serum Visions in Thresh for a long time. Back when Visions was the second best Brainstorm, I wanted the text lines reversed on it BADLY.

[DragoFireheart]

Ponder allows you to set up your top three better, as well, by allowing you to "draw the card first," in a way. With Preordain, you're looking at somewhere between the top 2 and top 3 cards, depending on what your Scry choices are. If you choose top, top, draw, then you look at top 2. If you choose top, bottom, draw then again, top 2. If you choose bottom, bottom, draw, it's top 3, but you don't get a known card. There's no way for you to know the second card from the top after the card resolves, which you can do with Ponder. Granted, if one of the two is awesome and the other sucks, you're stuck with none or both with Ponder, whereas Preordain gets you just what you want.


And this is where I believe Ponder is vastly inferior to Preordian. The fact that Ponder can not get rid of bricks if you see a bomb you like causes it to be, in my eyes, a disadvantage that Preordain does not suffer from. Preordian can't dig deep but it can ensure that if your next draws were crap, you can get rid of them with 0% luck involved (until the next shuffle effect occurs). Even with the fact that Preordian can not dig as deep as Ponder, you are guarenteed to always get rid of 1-2 bricks when you NEED that StP to kill a Pilvedriver or desperately need a Gofy to block another Gofy.

[Valtrix]

Another thing to consider is the prevalence of shuffle effects in the format. With so many shuffle effects, ponder lets you grab that needed card 3rd from the top, while still shuffling away two things that you don't want, gaining you the advantage that preordain has in that respect. As for the cards themselves, I'm not sure. I do like that ponder effectively lets you choose between 4 cards (3 on top, or 1 unknown), whereas preordain lets you only see 3 (2 on top, 1 unknown). In some cases that could be more useful than preordain; however, I can also see lots of situations where you get a land and a spell for the top 2 when you're fine on land. Being able to not draw that land but still get a good card is a huge edge that ponder doesn't have, since ponder will only delay you from drawing that land if you see a card or 2 that you like. In fact, as I say that, that ability makes it seem incredibly strong to net advantage by not giving you an unneeded land (or any other card) at any point of the game while still getting a card that you want. Thus, moving along in the game you could gain an edge over your opponent by being pseudo "ahead on draws" while ensuring you got a card you still wanted.

[Malchar]

Since they've brought back scry, maybe they won't make cantrips that have shuffling anymore. This could cut down on match length in standard. Then again, the set is only half-spoiled so far.

[Jak]

Since they've brought back scry, maybe they won't make cantrips that have shuffling anymore. This could cut down on match length in standard. Then again, the set is only half-spoiled so far.

They just printed new fetchlands and have been reprinting Ponder. I think this is a cool way of instead of just bringing back old cards, bring back old mechanics and keywords. Kind of goes against the beginner thing going on in past Core sets, but whatever. Better for us.

[dahcmai]

Diminish U
Instant
Target creature becomes 1/1 until end of turn.


Man, I wish it had a temp Humility effect. That would make that so rock. Either way, I might give it a shot.

[Aggro_zombies]

They just printed new fetchlands and have been reprinting Ponder. I think this is a cool way of instead of just bringing back old cards, bring back old mechanics and keywords. Kind of goes against the beginner thing going on in past Core sets, but whatever. Better for us.
Not really. I mean, scry could be done without a keyword and still be completely fine (it's a lot easier to understand than something like regeneration, which didn't have reminder text until, what, Tenth?), although a keyword would save mental space if it gets used as frequently as it was in 5D.

Also, indestructibility was in M10, although only at higher rarities.

[chokin]

Preordain is pretty interesting to me. It seems on par with Ponder, maybe a smidge worse. I think if it had been scry 3, it would replace Ponder right away.

If you scry both cards away, that fresh card is similar to the post-shuffle of Ponder in that you don't know what you're. If you scry one, keep one, you don't know what's on top. I like that Ponder digs deeper before you decide to get a fresh topdeck or keep it.

If it were only scry 3...

EDIT:
Dahcmai - Snakeform is probably the closest thing I can think of that you'd be lookin for. I wonder if it would cost 1u/g if it lacked the draw...

[Arsenal]

But with Ponder, it's not truly a fresh topdeck, you're leaving everything to random chance. You could very well end up with all/majority of the same chaff you shuffled away. With Preordain, you're guaranteed not to see that specific chaff. The percentages I'm sure are slight, but on your 2-3 Ponder/Preordain, I'm sure it matters... (maybe? I'm no mathmetician).

[GtF]

If it had scry 3 it would just be better than ponder, since if you don't like any of them you can put them all on the bottom and be guaranteed not to draw any of those cards, unlike with the shuffle option from ponder. As it is, it's still pretty good, though a bit worse than ponder I think because the incidental ability of fetchlands to shuffle away things you don't want makes ponder awesome. Still, I could see a deck that already plays 4 brainstorm 4 ponder playing some of these in addition and being pretty happy with it.

[4eak]

I've setup a test to see which Cantrip is better for finding cards:

Serum Visions
Preordain
Ponder

All 3 are :u: cost sorcery cantrips (makes for a simple cost/benefit comparison). I ran two versions of the same test for each cantrip (a single card test and a 2-card combo test) and a control test for each deck whereby no cantrips were played. I tried to simulate decks which looked remotely plausible (and regular 4-of's, etc.) and show-cased the raw value of each cantrips ability to filter. There are other factors to consider, but I consider this a fairly decent set of tests to understand the value of these cantrips.

Deck for Test 1
32 Random and irrelevant Cards (Tarpan is a pimp in these slots)
20 Island
4 Cantrip (or 4 Random for the no-cantrip test).
4 Pact of Win (if the link is broken, then keep searching; I know it is in there somewhere)

&

Deck for Test 2
20 Island
4 Cantrip (or 4 Random for the no-cantrip test)
4 First half of Pact of Win
4 Second half of Pact of Win
28 Random and irrelevant Cards

The strategy is to play all lands in Hand (1 per turn obv), play as many cantrips as can be played each turn (random/irrelevant cards just sit in hand), and filter specifically for the 1-card or 2-card combo. Completion of a game was based upon having the full Pact of Win (either the 1-card or both halves) in hand.

Mulligan calculations were completed for each test (and yes, they are necessary to complete). The simulation assumed you were on the play in half the games and on the draw in the other half (obv), so take that into account when viewing the average turn on which you win (complete the combo).

Admittedly, because I had to sell my computer in Thailand (/cry) and now I only have a netbook, I've limited computing power. The second test had far more (5x) iterations than the first (feel free to do your own) -- someone with a better computer may want to test again to edify or verify the results.

Listed, you'll find the dumps to each test and the program used in testing:
Test 1 - Serum Visions (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6630203/Magic-Decktest-1-SVParse.txt)
Test 1 - Preordain (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6630203/Magic-Decktest-1-POParse.txt)
Test 1 - Ponder (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6630203/Magic-Decktest-1-Ponder.txt)
Test 1 - No-Cantrip Control (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6630203/Magic-Decktest-1-BlankParse.txt)
Test 2 - Serum Visions (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6630203/Magic-Decktest-2-SVParse.txt)
Test 2 - Preordain (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6630203/Magic-Decktest-2-POParse.txt)
Test 2 - Ponder (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6630203/Magic-Decktest-2-Ponder.txt)
Test 2 - No-Cantrip Control (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6630203/Magic-Decktest-2-BlankParse.txt)
The program (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6630203/Magic-Decktest.py) (Py2.6).

If you want to run the 2-card combo test, you'll need to uncomment the Cantrip you wish to test (and comment out the rest). If you wish to run the first test, unfortunately, you'll need to modify the actual cantrip and win-condition logic (which is fairly straightfoward). The dumps have further uses, imho, beyond just the end-result. Understanding mulligan differences, for example, might be useful.

If you want to skip that and just see my results in a tidy table, here are the average number of turns required to complete the combo in Hand given the test and the cantrip used:

http://imgur.com/kaUQn.png

(Less turns is better)

When searching for multiple particular cards, Ponder is more effective than both Serum Visions and Preordain. If you are running :u: cantrips 5-8, make it Ponder (1-4 being Brainstorm, assuming shuffle effects, of course). If you are looking for cantrips 9-12, Preordain is marginally better than Serum Visions.



peace,
4eak

[Maveric78f]

Nice.

How many runs for your tests? What's the confidence intervalle of your numbers? I don't see how serum vision can be better than preordain for the 1-card combo. So I guess it's due to unpreciseness.

By the way, you have to know that the main weakness of ponder cannot be well observed by your testing : when you see 1 good card, you'll have to draw the 2 other cards. Legacy's fetches reduce this weakness and that's the only reason why Ponder > Serum Visions.

[4eak]

There always remains the possibility that the test was flawed. I've provided the source I have and the results for scrutiny and/or re-testing.


How many runs for your tests?

Test 1:
Mulligan Calculation: 10,000 games for each particular hand; 100,000 games for the average X-card hand.
Actual Test (post-Mulligan Calculation): 1,000,000 games

Test 2:
Mulligan Calculation: 50,000 games for each particular hand; 500,000 games for the average X-card hand.
Actual Test (post-Mulligan Calculation): 5,000,000 games


What's the confidence intervalle of your numbers?

I have no idea. I think the numbers are probably useful. More testing would have increased that probability, however, it was the best I could do. Unfortunately, I'm forced to work with what I have, which isn't much computing-wise. Even slight overclocking on a stripped OS on a netbook still blows. I want time on a real machine (without spending a lot of money, lulz). I've offered the program itself incase someone with more resources would like to run the tests themselves.


I don't see how serum vision can be better than preordain for the 1-card combo. So I guess it's due to unprecisenes

A real possibility, although I'm betting it isn't by much. I think the major point to draw from the 1-card test is that all 3 cantrips are in the same ball park. It isn't until we move to a 2-card combo that it ends up mattering a lot.


By the way, you have to know that the main weakness of ponder cannot be well observed by your testing : when you see 1 good card, you'll have to draw the 2 other cards. Legacy's fetches reduce this weakness and that's the only reason why Ponder > Serum Visions

In the case of strong card selection requirements (e.g. finding Reanimate + Entomb exclusively), I think Ponder > Serum Visions even without fetching. The test should have shown that.

I'm not sure if you looked at the code, but I believe the main weakness was built into the test. For test 2, if you're casting Ponder with no combo pieces in hand, and the top 3 of your library looks like:

Island
Combo Piece 1
Random/Irrelevant Card

Then the program rearranges the top 3 to this:

Combo Piece 1
Island
Random/Irrelevant Card

Then it draws the top (CP1), leaving these on top:

Island
Random/Irrelevant Card

It is here that you'd usually want to fetch. Because I ran no fetches, Ponder had to endure the weakness in tests (and would have put up even better results with fetches). Therefore, I disagree with your claim that the program did not observe the main weakness of Ponder. Please note that Ponder outperformed Serum Visions by a decent margin in finding 2 combo pieces, even though it had no extra cards to improve its effectiveness (like fetchlands).

I would agree that the program did not observe Ponder's synergy with fetchlands. I felt it might be unfair to test Ponder with synergy cards that had no relevant synergy with Serum Visions or Preordain, perhaps I was wrong though. Admittedly, in a vacuum, I think one of the strengths Ponder is that it can be so potent even without shuffle effects (not that shuffle effects can't improve it), and that is also part of why I thought the test was still relevant.

Also, and perhaps you were pointing to this, the weakness of Ponder (compared to Scry) can also get a bit more complex if we aren't so restricted in our card selection requirements. If you aren't searching exclusively for particular cards, and must include the value of the remaining cards which I deemed "random/irrelevant", then the test becomes exponentially more complex. Without just making up the values of these cards (something you can almost entirely avoid in the exclusive combo-piece scenario), I'd love to see even a framework of how that could be tested by mortals.




peace,
4eak

[rufus]

Does Jace's Erasure only trigger once for stuff like Brainstorm which draw multiple cards at once?

[Nonex]

Each card drawn is a separate event. Any "Draw X cards" statement is read by the game as "Draw a card X times".

[jrsthethird]

No, it triggers once for each card you draw.

[Digital Devil]

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/arcana/471_5oghtw76is.jpg

What?

[Aggro_zombies]

What?
This is in white's part of the color pie at higher rarities. See: Reya Dawnbringer, Reveillark.

Card is only as good in constructed as what it can reanimate, but it's pretty baller for EDH.

[Barook]

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/arcana/471_5oghtw76is.jpg

What?
6 mana for something that doesn't win the game immediately is horrible in Legacy.

Where would you play it? Stax for extra recursion?

[Aggro_zombies]

6 mana for something that doesn't win the game immediately is horrible in Legacy.

Where would you play it? Stax for extra recursion?
If I had a nickel for every time someone said a new card would be playable in Stax...

[4eak]

+85 cents to Aggro Zombies. =)

Seriously, this is a useless addition to White Stax. An addition to White Stax would need to be a lot better and alot cheaper; for example:

:2::w: -- 1/3
Flying
Shroud
Creatures can't attack you unless their controller pays :1: for each creature attacking you.




peace,
4eak

[Aggro_zombies]

That isn't what Stax needs, though.

What Stax needs is a cheap and reusable form of library manipulation that plays well with Chalice/Trinisphere and prevents it from shitting all over itself with bad topdecks just as it's trying to lock the game away.

EDIT: Something like:

:2::w:
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, if target opponent has more cards in hand than you, you may look at the top two cards of your library. You may put one of those cards into your hand and the other on the bottom of your library.

This is vaguely in flavor for white, and Stax can empty its hand quickly while forcing the opponent to keep a full one.

[dahcmai]

That would be amazingly broken though.

Sadly, the Titan won't see play in Stax. It's pretty damned cool though.

[rufus]

There's some cute interaction with Sun Titan and ,say Dance of Many or Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead/Necromancy since you can chain them into play, but there are just too many better targets for reanimation.

[freakish777]

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/arcana/471_5oghtw76is.jpg

What?


So, we're hoping they reprint Oblivion Ring in Standard (and a playable sac outlet for ORing)?

[Pastorofmuppets]

OH GOD GUSY SUN TITAN IS SOO BORKEN IN ENCHANTRESSsS YU DONT HAVE TO DISCVARD TO SOLLYTARY CANFAINMENT NOW YOU CAN JUTS REANIMAT EIT NEXT TURN WITH TITAN AND THERES NO STOPING IT

/\ Salvation on Titan in Legacy.
I want one for EDH

[4eak]

While I don't believe it will change White Stax (Lord knows, I could be wrong), and I doubt it will change Legacy at all (see Zur the Enchanter, whom I consider a badass with nearly zero impact in Legacy), I really do love Sun Titan. Cards like these make me all hot and bothered:

Trinket Mage
Stoneforge Mystic
Imperial Recruiter
Ranger of Eos

(Yes, tried a Vial deck with 'em; sadly, not good enough)

Sun Titan is in the same vein, and I really love it. I wish it was even more broken for 6cc. I hope WotC continues to produce CA-generating cards.



peace,
4eak

[Arsenal]

Although Ranger of Eos would not be able to be recurred via Sun Titan, I get the idea. Yeah, cards like Reveillark/Sun Titan/Zue the Enchanter are all on my favorite list of fun creatures.

[rufus]

Sun Titan is in the same vein, and I really love it. I wish it was even more broken for 6cc. I hope WotC continues to produce CA-generating cards.

Sun Titan is quite potent, but, since it's pulling stuff from the graveyard, the natural method for using it is reanimation. You could do stuff like:
Altar of Dementia/Goblin Bombardment/Blasting Station
Necromancy/Animate Dead
Sun Titan

But three card combos just won't cut it, and Protean Hulk is better.

[scrumdogg]

The list of decent targets for the Titan to bring back is fairly immense - and customizable to how the deck would be built. Blue gives you a decent control string of Trinket Mage-EE-Seal of Bouncing-Standstill (which would be a hideous play for an opponent, get the 6/6 vigilance guy who brings his own Standstill...) while giving all sorts of ways to put it in the yard (Intuition, Gifts, TFK, etc. White gives you various forms of board control like O-Ring, Worship, Teferi's Moat (because you want the Titan to be able to attack) or the ubiquitous equipment (how many times can they kill your Jitte/Sword without also dealing with the Titan), Green not only has Survival to get Titan (and juicy targets) in the yard, but Titan can get SoTF back (and most Survival decks function much better with the enchantment active & 'protected'). Green also has the tools to actively accelerate the Titan into being cast, as opposed to reanimated (which I agree is probably the best route). Black has all sorts of disgusting options ranging from creature control (Seal, Paralyze, Nighthawk, Gatekeeper etc) to board control (one sided Contamination anyone?) to recursive 'combo' elements (how many times can they stop your Hexmage/Depths attempts while still dealing with the 6/6 vigilance?). Is this card going to be in every deck, warping Legacy? Of course not, but dismissing it as unplayable seems pre-emptive and shortsighted.

[Aggro_zombies]

Sun Titan is quite potent, but, since it's pulling stuff from the graveyard, the natural method for using it is reanimation. You could do stuff like:
Altar of Dementia/Goblin Bombardment/Blasting Station
Necromancy/Animate Dead
Sun Titan

But three card combos just won't cut it, and Protean Hulk is better.
This combo already existed, and for cheaper (:3::r::w::w: total). It was a deck once called "Fruity Pebbles" IIRC.

Hulk only saw play because it cost :1::u: to combo off with Flash, and the tutor for Hulk was free. Graveyard Hulk decks are essentially unplayable because they cost :2::b::b: minimum and don't win on the spot (since the cards that bring Hulk back only kill him off again at EOT), and that's cheaper than the Fruity Pebbles combo by a mile and in a color with Rituals.

Unplayable but funky combo is unplayable (but funky). :/

[rufus]

The list of decent targets for the Titan to bring back is fairly immense - and customizable to how the deck would be built. ...

Provided things are lined up correctly, cycling Second Chance is risky, but could finish games quickly. There's also the soft-lock stuff like Spore Frog.

[TheCramp]

I will be rocking the sun titan in standard with boar umbra. Oh yesss. 9/9 vigalance who cant be killed? done. I am interested in Chandra's Spitfire in a big way. Not sure what is to be done with it. In standard I am thinking some sort of green base eldrazie monument deck with raid bombardment and spitfire. Either it will be worthless or just crazy enough to work. It's even a longer shot in legacy, but I am going to give it some thought.

[troopatroop]

Sun Titan + Loyal Retainers + Iona in GW Survival? That's the best i can do. the 6 mana 6/6 vigilance isn't terrible, but I doubt it's playable.

[morgan_coke]

Anyone have any thoughts on the Mystifying Maze art? Could it be a neo Maze of Ith?

Perhaps something like:

Mystifying Maze
Legendary Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
2, T: Untap target attacking creature and prevent all combat damage it would deal or receive.

Or is that still too good for std? (I added the legendary clause to reduce its power, make it easier to remove and prevent people from facing multiples, which was one thing that made playing against Maze of Ith back in the day so bad if you didn't have Serra Angel)

Or it could be some crappy enchantment, but the art looks a LOT like the Judge Promo Maze of Ith art.

[Arsenal]

Thief of Scrolls / Scroll Thief (?)
Creature - Merfolk Rogue
2U
When ~ deals combat damage to a player, draw a card.
1/3

Thoughts?

[Piceli89]

Ophidian 2.0.

[Arsenal]

Yeah, an upgraded Ophidian that happens to be a Merfolk. Not a replacement for Standstill by any means, but seems interesting despite it being 3cc.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah, an upgraded Ophidian that happens to be a Merfolk. Not a replacement for Standstill by any means, but seems interesting despite it being 3cc.
It would be better to say, "...but seems interesting and is 3cc."

Merfolk already has a pretty loaded 3cc slot, and it's unlikely that this guy will do enough to be played there. Actually, he's probably not playable in Legacy given that we already have a card that's better by itself (Thieving Magpie) which is unplayable by virtue of costing four. This guy costs one less but has no evasion, which makes him similarly unplayable.

Could be pretty good in the new Extended format where he'll help Merfolk reload against decks like Faeries or other control. He probably won't be very playable in Standard as long as Wall of Omens continues to be popular - and with Mana Leak spoiled in the same batch as this guy, I'd say :w::u: control isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[dahcmai]

Ummm, I think we can safely say this card is decent. It's Timetwister +1U. I can think of a few uses for this one, though Draw 7 isn't as good as it used to be. Not broken by any means anymore, but it's interesting to have this effect in legacy as a 4 of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4RW0tvrDiM

[Vacrix]

Here are some pretty dank new cards from the spoiler:

Back to Nature 1G
Instant
Destroy all Enchantments

Time Reversal 3UU
Sorcery
Each player shuffles his or her hand and graveyard into his or her library, then draws seven cards. Exile Time Reversal.

Bloodthirsty Goblin R
Creature - Goblin Berserker
Bloodthirsty Goblin can't attack unless an opponent was dealt noncombat damage this turn.
2/2

Back to Nature. Great against Enchantress.
Time Reversal. Diminishing Returns 2.0
Bloodthirsty Goblin. Sligh much?

EDIT:
@video. Yeah they show Time Reversal. The art is fucking sick.

[Gocho]

I'm thinking in a UG deck, maybe UGB, similar to spring tide (you can't play Sorceries with Reset).

A lot of the new Draw 7, High Tides, "play more lands" spells and untap effects and you have a funny deck.
But with so many Emrakuls and Progenitus you can't win with Brain Freeze xD

[Vacrix]

Yeah you can bro. Stroke of Genius.

[denial]

Yeah you can bro. Stroke of Genius.

Cool story bro. Have you ever won a game by stroking your opponent's deck until nothing was left ?

[Vacrix]

Won a game? A game? You mean like... just one?

I guess you aren't familiar with Solidarity.

Yes all the fucking time. That actually how you win you know.

EDIT:
He was referring to High Tide combo ie. Spring Tide or Solidarity. It gets the opponent's library in the yard via Brainfreeze and then Strokes the opponent to force them to draw.
Also, you can just make them draw the whole deck with a huge Stroke, if you sculpt that hand.

[DrJones]

That goblin is the worst paralytic weenie that red has ever gotten.

[Vacrix]

That goblin is the worst paralytic weenie that red has ever gotten.
Norin the Wary would have a word with you if he wasn't such a fucking pussy. :P

He can't even attack without getting scared. "Yup no blockers. Oh shit! It must be a trap!"
I guess he's a crack head or something.

[sephorusFR]

doesn't grim monolith + time rversal be some kind of basis for U centric storm deck ?

[eq.firemind]

doesn't grim monolith + time rversal be some kind of basis for U centric storm deck ?
There's already Diminishing Returns wich costs :1: less...

[rufus]

Norin the Wary would have a word with you if he wasn't such a fucking pussy. :P


Norin does interact with some interesting stuff like Pandemonium or Confusion in the Ranks and Puca's Mischief pretty well though.

[Vacrix]

Yes he does, but if you are talking purely about him being a 'paralytic weenie' then he is far worse than that goblin. He can't even attack or block..

I tried to build something like that BTW. It was horrible. :P

[kusumoto]

There's already Diminishing Returns wich costs :1: less...


It also removes the top ten cards of your library from the game. That can suck pretty bad a lot of the time. At least that's the advantage I see with the new one. It would be slower, but it wouldn't be as risky with 1 ofs.

[Vacrix]

Even so, the only decks that would play it are storm combo. They would much rather have one additional mana than do something irrelevant like remove the top 10, irrelevant unless you have to fetch something out of your deck. Having 1 more mana floating can make the difference.

[kusumoto]

I know the one mana makes a big difference, but you wouldn't need to do things like having wishes or running multiple copies of tendrils/brainfreeze. With diminishing returns, you could end up milling those out. That's why you need multiple copies or wishes. It would probably be best in spring tide, but could work in some sort of Legacy port of TPS. Something similar to TES, but without the Ad Nauseam, and thus having the ability to run high CMCs.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Here is an interesting new card.

Steel Overseer
Artifact Creature — Construct (Rare)
: Put a +1/+1 counter on each
artifact creature you control.
“The world is already run by all manner
of machines. One day, they’ll remind us
of that fact.”
—Sargis Haz, artificer
1/1

[Exospaciac]

Here is an interesting new card.

Steel Overseer
Artifact Creature — Construct (Rare)
: Put a +1/+1 counter on each
artifact creature you control.
“The world is already run by all manner
of machines. One day, they’ll remind us
of that fact.”
—Sargis Haz, artificer
1/1

It's probably too slow for affinity, but this would be a good reason to run Arcbound Worker in the deck again.
Come on Wizards! I just want one more really good card for affinity. :(

[Vacrix]

Here is an interesting new card.

Steel Overseer 2
Artifact Creature — Construct (Rare)
T: Put a +1/+1 counter on each
artifact creature you control.
“The world is already run by all manner
of machines. One day, they’ll remind us
of that fact.”
—Sargis Haz, artificer
1/1
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106657&d=1277467427

Yup this looks pretty legit but you forgot to include the mana cost and (T). I think its pretty good @ 2cc.

Even so, I think that affinity still needs some way to recover from sweepers that completely wreck it.. like Deed.

[Tilde]

I know the one mana makes a big difference, but you wouldn't need to do things like having wishes or running multiple copies of tendrils/brainfreeze. With diminishing returns, you could end up milling those out. That's why you need multiple copies or wishes. It would probably be best in spring tide, but could work in some sort of Legacy port of TPS. Something similar to TES, but without the Ad Nauseam, and thus having the ability to run high CMCs.

It really bugs me that Wishes can't fetch exiled cards now - it cuts off interesting lines of play and goes against the orignal functionality.

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106657&d=1277467427
Looks like a plant for Scars of Mirrodin.

Maybe Modular returns.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106657&d=1277467427

Yup this looks pretty legit but you forgot to include the mana cost and (T). I think its pretty good @ 2cc.

Even so, I think that affinity still needs some way to recover from sweepers that completely wreck it.. like Deed.

Thanks. I got to stop being lazy :tongue:

[denial]

Won a game? A game? You mean like... just one?

I guess you aren't familiar with Solidarity.

Yes all the fucking time. That actually how you win you know.

EDIT:
He was referring to High Tide combo ie. Spring Tide or Solidarity. It gets the opponent's library in the yard via Brainfreeze and then Strokes the opponent to force them to draw.
Also, you can just make them draw the whole deck with a huge Stroke, if you sculpt that hand.

Ok, well have you ever been stuck with nothing to do and no options. So you were forced to stroke yourself for lack of anything better. But then end up with a handful of shit and just give up cause you're tapped out at that point anyways ?

[coraz86]

Ok, well have you ever been stuck with nothing to do and no options. So you were forced to stroke yourself for lack of anything better. But then end up with a handful of shit and just give up cause you're tapped out at that point anyways ?

I have the feeling that this happens to a lot of Magic players, but probably not in the way that your inadequate capitalization implies.

[Vacrix]

Ok, well have you ever been stuck with nothing to do and no options. So you were forced to stroke yourself for lack of anything better. But then end up with a handful of shit and just give up cause you're tapped out at that point anyways ?
Actually no. Stroking myself has always proved to be Lucrative so far, especially when you Stroke yourself for something like 9 as long as you have UU floating you'll probably find a Reset, or you can Stroke yourself for 7 and leave 4 open for Turnabout, depends on the number of each that you have played so far. I haven't fizzed with Solidarity in a long, long time. I might die before I go off, but I haven't fizzed.

[keys]

I have the feeling that this happens to a lot of Magic players, but probably not in the way that your inadequate capitalization implies.

:-o

[Aggro_zombies]

Stroke of Genius innuendo jokes are old hat.

Also, I hope that modular doesn't return in Scars of Mirrodin. God, that mechanic was fucking annoying. Way to totally devalue targeted removal.

[rufus]

Here is an interesting new card.

Steel Overseer
Artifact Creature — Construct (Rare)
: Put a +1/+1 counter on each
artifact creature you control.
“The world is already run by all manner
of machines. One day, they’ll remind us
of that fact.”
—Sargis Haz, artificer
1/1

I think he's not so great. You have to choose between pumping and swinging, and the ability seems very win-more.

[DragoFireheart]

WoTC is going to fuck up Scars.


Here is why I think that:


1. They will be trying so hard to balance it that some broken shit will slip under the radar.

2. See 1.

[edgewalker]

I feel because of how mirridon ended, scars will have less of an artifact feel to it. Without Memnarch, nothing is warping the world into steel. I think of the bonus video of Midgar at the end of FFVII (Ya I went there) when I think of the flavor of scars.

[obituary 95]

my advice for scars is to pick up your Steamflogger Bosses, just kiding that card was horrible.

[Aggro_zombies]

my advice for scars is to pick up your Steamflogger Bosses, just kiding that card was horrible.
You say that now, but when CONTRAPTIONS SHOW UP IN SCARS OF MIRRODIN...

[xTrainx]

Conundrum Sphinx looks fairly interesting; especially with Top.

[Arsenal]

Conundrum Sphinx looks fairly interesting; especially with Top.

The 4cc slot for blue is getting awfully clogged up. Sower, Jace, FoF, etc.

[Cire]

The new knight lord looks good...

1WW Knight Exemplar
First Strike
All other knight creature you control have +1/+1 and indestructible
2/2

[Infinitium]

Crystal Ball - 3
Artifact
1, tap: Scry 2

Certainly good enough to smooth out MUD Stax/Wildfire.dec should either deck ever become viable (gigantic if still).

Squadron Hawk - 1W
Creature - Bird
When ~ EtB, search your library for up to 3 cards named ~, reveal them, and put them in your hand, then shuffle your library.

Some sort of Wx weenie deck with this, Stoneforge Mystic, Vial and Equipments could be nasty. Possible card advantage in D&T isn't easy to dismiss offhand.

War Priest of Thule - 1W
Creature - Human Cleric
When ~ EtB, you may destroy target enchancement.

"Nice". Probably not good enough though, and Duergar Hedge-Mage has more utility whilst still not seeing play.

[jrsthethird]

This set is getting nuts. Sphinx is sick.

[danyul]

Indestructible Knight of the Reliquary.

I'm depressed.

[denial]

Farming Knight of the Reliquary.

I'm hungry.

[Bardo]

I never thought I'd say this about a core set, but M11 is shaping up to be awesome. I love the simplicity and "cleanness" (for lack of a better word) of the cards.

[coraz86]

I never thought I'd say this about a core set, but M11 is shaping up to be awesome. I love the simplicity and "cleanness" (for lack of a better word) of the cards.

Agreed. I like how many cards like Conundrum Sphinx and Obstinate Baloth seem excellent, but not insane, so those of us devoid of Baneslayers have room to experiment.

It also seems like they're make the quality of mythic rares more consistent, rather than having a giant spectrum; your chances of pulling a Bankslayer out of a pack of M10 are as good as your chances of pulling a Xathrid Demon, for instance, but M11 seems like your mythics are going to pretty much be the power/scarcity ratio they intended when they decided they needed a new rarity level. (Check out the Frost Titan they just spoiled, for instance.)

[Vacrix]

You say that now, but when CONTRAPTIONS SHOW UP IN SCARS OF MIRRODIN...
Has anyone ever speculated on what 'contraptions' and 'riggers' would have to be printed to make it playable? I mean we really don't have any idea exactly what it would be like but what about something like this?

Rigger #1 RR
Creature - Rigger
T: Put a 0/1 Contraption into play with "Sacrifice: Deal 1 damage to target creature or player."
1/1

Rigger #2 UG
Creature - Rigger
Landfall: Put a 0/1 Land into play with "Sacrifice: Untap target basic land"
2/2

Rigger #3 1BB
Creature - Rigger
Fear
Whenever ~ would deal combat damage to a player, put a 0/1 Contraption into play with "Sacrifice: Target creature gets +2/+0.
4/1

Just ideas.

[Kagehisa]

Frost Titan 4uu 6/6
Creature – Giant
Whenever ~ becomes the target of a spell or ability that an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless its controller pays 2.
Whenever ~ enters the battlefield or attacks, tap target permanent. That permanent does not untap during its controller’s next untap phase.

Why no Shroud ? :( Even under Back To basics (in MUC), even if you use its ability to tap lands (white source or "white fetch"), StP still kill it with a playable cost. I see an opportunity to combo its ability with cards such as Guile but still... Shroud would be just better XD

Its evasion is limited but its kind of defense too. It is not the new superman. Yes, every Blue wincon is compared to superman. ;)

[DarthVicious]

Steamflogger Boss

Including a mechanic that uses keywords like this would be very weird to template.

[Infinitium]

Not really, as "Assemble" might just as well be a design mechanic rather than a rules one (eg Hellbent or Chroma; the mechanic name itself doesn't do anything other than indicate a certain design), and current wording conventions often refer directly to the keywords in question (eg Devour). For an instance, "Assemble 2R: Put a Artifact Contraption token with "whenever you sip a glass of milk, have a cookie" onto the battlefield".

[ktkenshinx]

For a card to be playable or good in Legacy, it normally has to fit a few criteria. Chief amongst these is mana cost; for anything more than 4 mana, you better be winning the game on the spot, and you need to be doing it better than a cheaper alternative. But there are exceptions to every general rule:

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/mm/mm97_fsignfyighuismd.jpg
(Source: Rosewater, http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/97)

For those that cannot see the image:

Gaea's Revenge
5GG
Creature - Elemental
Gaea's Revenge can't be countered.
Haste
Gaea's Revenge can't be the target of nongreen spells or abilities from nongreen sources.
8/5

This baby is the exception to the rule that I discussed above. Let me explain why by breaking the card down.

1. Mana cost: 5GG
That's a lot of mana and it does not instantly win you the game. I understand this, but when you look at the whole package, you realize that 5GG is not that much for this sort of beast. More importantly, if any color is capable of getting 5GG early, it's green. Between some Elves, Gaea's Cradle (what a flavorful companion!), and various other green mana accelerators, This bad boy is capable of coming down on turn 4 or even earlier, depending on the draw. Consider the following play:
Turn 1: Forest, Llanowar Elves
Turn 2: Cradle, Priest of Titania, Llanowar Elves
Turn 3: Forest, tap out for Gaea's Revenge. Swing.
Normally, this is where you interject and say "Force of Will/Daze anyone?" or "7 mana to get eaten away by a mere 1 white Path or Swords." Not this time folks...

2. Protection
When I first saw Gaea's Revenge, I thought "Wow. That actually doesn't die in Legacy." Standard, even after the rotation, has two spells that cause big problems for our Elemental friend. Those are Martial Coup and, more terrifyingly, Day of Judgment. Shroud doesn't mean much in Standard when a lot of the best decks are packing 4+ non-targeting board sweepers. Legacy is a different story. The main removal spells are Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, and Lightning Bolt. One of these things couldn't even kill Revenge even if it could target it, and the other two are just stopped flat by the third ability. This hits play and stays in play. Not even ability-based methods of control (Jace the Mind Sculptor) can deal with it once it's out there.

And then there's the uncounterability. I do not need to elaborate on the prevalence of Force of Will and Daze in this format. Revenge completely stops these cards. It has a big price tag, but it's an investment that won't be messed with by a mere 0 mana card.

These two abilities combine to invalidate the core of most Legacy decks. Swords, FoW, Daze. That's a potent 12 card selection that a lot of decks have that do not do anything against the elemental. Sure, you can mess with the little mana accelerators, but those are a dime a dozen, while your investment is solid gold.

3. The color Green.
Some might think "Natural Order" in this situation. But that effectively counteracts the "Can't be countered" clause and makes your beater a bit more vulnerable; at that point, you might as well be NO'ing up a Progenitus. But then I thought of a better spell interaction: Summoner's Pact. If you can hardcast the Revenge you can almost 100% of the time pay the 4 mana upkeep next turn. That gives you your big finisher right away and effectively increases its copies to 8, in any deck running it.

4. Haste
It's a 3 turn clock that hits the ground running and doesn't stop until he gets his bloody business done. This is especially critical given that you have invested a whopping 7 mana into your killer.

5. 8/5 power and toughness
Tarmogoyf has an average P/T of around 4/5, with an Instant, Sorcery, Land, and Creature most frequently in the graveyard. Some games it's a 3/4, and in fewer games it's a 5/6 or higher. As a 4/5, Goyf is about as big as Legacy creatures get, with some Reanimator exceptions (a deck that's probably dead anyway in lieu of recent developments), as well as exceptions in Progenitus, Tombstalker, and attacking Piledrivers. But most of the time, a 4/5 is at the top of the creature game. An 8/5 is a far scarier situation. The lack of trample is completely justified given the rest of the package, and many decks simply cannot afford to chump your 8/5 murdered for turn after turn without the ability to remove him.

I admit, I am probably pumping this card up a bit beyond its actual power level, but it is certainly a card that merits consideration in its own deck, not necessarily as a modification to a new deck, unless that deck is Elves (And I am almost afraid to even bring that up, for fear of immediately sending readers fleeing).

Bottom line: Deals with Legacy's 3 biggest problem solvers: FoW, Daze, and Swords. Swings for 8, has haste, is green, and is worth every single digit of its mana cost.

-ktkenshinx-

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Problem:

http://imgur.com/16UuK.jpg

http://imgur.com/rNBbG.jpg

http://imgur.com/OGhuy.jpg

[Jak]

7 mana... with no evasion... This won't see play.

[lolosoon]

It will be chumpblocked all day, then will die to a bigger critter, or 2 average ones (say, Nacatl+Ape), or just the usual Perish.

With so much mana, I'd rather chain Sylvan Messengers with W.Symbiote and take over the board with WarCaller than play this thing in my legacy elves...

[Vacrix]

Its still pretty strong. Keep in mind it has psuedo-troll shroud. You can still pump it if they try to block with something comparable in Size like KoTR or Goyf.

[heroicraptor]

Its still pretty strong. Keep in mind it has psuedo-troll shroud. You can still pump it if they try to block with something comparable in Size like KoTR or Goyf.

Pump it with what? Giant Growth?

[MMogg]

If Gaea's Revenge becomes hard cast playable in Legacy, I will lament this format.

[The_Red_Panda]

Every green EDH player ever came a little when they saw Primeval titan. Land cards? Thank you wizards, for not writing basic on such a wonderful EDH rare.

[Barook]

Primeval Titan seems interesting, although :4::g::g: probably leaves it unplayable in Legacy:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106732&d=1277698427

While card advantage and deck thinning are nice, the main aspect of the card is that it can grab nonbasics.

[morgan_coke]

Yeah, just off the top of my head double Wasteland or double Rishadan Port or Maze of Ith seems pretty strong. It'll usually be bigger than 'Goyf too. But I don't know if six mana is playable or not. Although if you break it down - 1G for 1st super rampant growth, 1G for second super rampant growth, 2 for 6/6 trampler it seems pretty reasonable.

[Raystar]

Gaea's Revenge <<<<<<< Quagnoth

Am I missing something?

[ktkenshinx]

Gaea's Revenge <<<<<<< Quagnoth

Am I missing something?

No Haste <<<<<<< Haste

Shroud <<<<<<< Troll Shroud

4/5 <<<<<<< 8/5

For one more mana, you get double the power, troll shroud, and haste. That seems decidedly better in almost every situation.


7 mana... with no evasion... This won't see play.
I think that people are underestimating the "Can't be countered" clause on GR. When you invest your 7 mana here, you are not going to lose your investment to a FoW or Daze. Heck, you won't even lose it to a Swords or Path in subsequent turns. KotR, Goyf, Terravore, and the other hyper-efficient beaters of New Horizons do not have these strengths.


It will be chumpblocked all day, then will die to a bigger critter, or 2 average ones (say, Nacatl+Ape), or just the usual Perish.
The first argument applies to both KotR and Goyf, and is clearly not a disqualifying fact there. The second argument is true in the abstract, but not in the specific where you back up your GR with some removal or countermagic, as novel an idea as that might sound.

GR does not replace anything in Legacy. It supplements it. A deck with Goyf, GR, Summoner's Pact, and a host of other powerful creatures, backed up with light mana acceleraton and Gaea's Cradle (which may die to Wasteland but not before at least one activation), all of which supported by removal or countermagic; those are the makings of a strong deck.

Two cards that come to mind here are Rancor and Berserk. Normally, these cards do not work so well in Legacy. Rancor becomes card disadvantage when its target is killed in response, and Berserk has the same problem. But GR is immune to these considerations. A 16/5 unkillable trampler? Or even a 10/5 unkillable trampler? Again, I have dismissed these two cards for years for the above reasons, but this might be a time to revisit them.

And as to Primeval Titan, I might even go so far as to say that he could be a reliable addition to such a deck. Could he be in an existing deck? I doubt it, not at 6 mana. But decks can evolve to accomodate badasses.

-ktkenshinx-

[Maveric78f]

Too bad it does not have protection from non-green. It could have been great. Like the others, I think it's too easy to block or even kill in combat.

[dahcmai]

The Titan might have had some use in Lands of all places. I could see myself wanting to play that. I'm even using the black splash for Volrath's Stronghold so he turns into a Double tolaria West for me just for casting that? I like it almost better than Dark Confidant in a way, though he sucks early which is Confidant's main attribute. If he also had that non-counterable clause, I would play it without thinking, but without it, he's meh. EDH material sadly. Confidant does the same purpose for less.

The Revenge I might consider playing since 7 mana isn't too bad for a finisher from hell that you can barely stop. Problem is there's just too many chumpers so you would need trample on him badly. Thopters alone will give it fits. It's scary to my UW control deck as I have nothing other than Humility and Moat that can stop it and both of those are already prime Krosan Grip targets which of course happen to be the same cost. To be honest though, if I were playing Green, I don't think I'd bother with this guy despite the fact he's fairly scary. He's just too useless against chumpers unless you fine a cheap efficient way to give trample.

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106721&d=1277697981

I misread it at first and thought it would only generate one token per trigger instead of two. 10+ power for 6 mana doesn't seem that bad, especially with Rituals. But good enough for Legacy? :eyebrow:

[coraz86]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106721&d=1277697981

I misread it at first and thought it would only generate one token per trigger instead of two. 10+ power for 6 mana doesn't seem that bad, especially with Rituals. But good enough for Legacy? :eyebrow:

It actually strikes me as not being a terrible bullet in Dredge; it protects itself from Edicts, and (however slowly) it helps you recharge if something happens to your Bridges. I wouldn't call it an auto-include, but I intend to take a look.

[Nihil Credo]

Second, there is one minor rules change associated with this set (as opposed to the significant overhaul we did last year). The functionality for the deathtouch mechanic is changing. I'll admit that when we switched last year to not putting combat damage on the stack and requiring blockers to be ordered, it was a difficult challenge to get deathtouch to work similarly to how it did pre-M10. The solution we came to for M10 was rushed, cobbled together in the final weeks before the set went to print, and I (and many of you) felt unsatisfied by it. To that end, we revamped it. I can accept that changing the rules for a mechanic twice in thirteen months is undesirable, but in the long run I'm sure this will prove to be the correct decision.
Starting with M11, deathtouch no longer ignores blocking order in situations involving multiple blockers. Additionally, you only need to assign a single point of damage from a creature with deathtouch to each blocker, which makes deathtouch a potent combination with trample. A 4/4 with trample and deathtouch can assign one damage to a blocking 8/8 and the other 3 damage to the defending player. The full FAQ entry for deathtouch appears below.

Hell yeah. I remember the (rightful) griping last year about that unsightly hole.

[Jak]

No Haste <<<<<<< Haste

Shroud <<<<<<< Troll Shroud

4/5 <<<<<<< 8/5

For one more mana, you get double the power, troll shroud, and haste. That seems decidedly better in almost every situation.


I think that people are underestimating the "Can't be countered" clause on GR. When you invest your 7 mana here, you are not going to lose your investment to a FoW or Daze. Heck, you won't even lose it to a Swords or Path in subsequent turns. KotR, Goyf, Terravore, and the other hyper-efficient beaters of New Horizons do not have these strengths.


The first argument applies to both KotR and Goyf, and is clearly not a disqualifying fact there. The second argument is true in the abstract, but not in the specific where you back up your GR with some removal or countermagic, as novel an idea as that might sound.

GR does not replace anything in Legacy. It supplements it. A deck with Goyf, GR, Summoner's Pact, and a host of other powerful creatures, backed up with light mana acceleraton and Gaea's Cradle (which may die to Wasteland but not before at least one activation), all of which supported by removal or countermagic; those are the makings of a strong deck.

Two cards that come to mind here are Rancor and Berserk. Normally, these cards do not work so well in Legacy. Rancor becomes card disadvantage when its target is killed in response, and Berserk has the same problem. But GR is immune to these considerations. A 16/5 unkillable trampler? Or even a 10/5 unkillable trampler? Again, I have dismissed these two cards for years for the above reasons, but this might be a time to revisit them.

And as to Primeval Titan, I might even go so far as to say that he could be a reliable addition to such a deck. Could he be in an existing deck? I doubt it, not at 6 mana. But decks can evolve to accomodate badasses.

-ktkenshinx-

You do realize this thing dies in combat, right? All this will do is attack and Tarmogoyf, Terravore, Tombstalker, Doran, Knight of the Reliquary, etc all kill this easily. You don't need to write another 1000 word essay on the strength of the card when all the strengths don't mean shit when it gets blocked.

[DrJones]

These Titans were designed to have an excuse to finally ban Sneak Attack in legacy.

[ktkenshinx]

You do realize this thing dies in combat, right? All this will do is attack and Tarmogoyf, Terravore, Tombstalker, Doran, Knight of the Reliquary, etc all kill this easily. You don't need to write another 1000 word essay on the strength of the card when all the strengths don't mean shit when it gets blocked.
As I said in my initial post, GR does not just go out into combat on its own. A deck that would support GR would use cards that are traditionally card disadvantage (Rancor, Berserk, Riding the Dilu Horse, etc) to allow its unkillable monster to win.

This is the key with GR. He allows you to use good cards like those mentioned above that normally are not used in Legacy because of the "Swords in response" problem. As to blockers, Legacy has never been light on good removal spells that could easily be used alongside the Elemental to protect him from the big bad New Horizons crowd.

-ktkenshinx-

[Aggro_zombies]

As I said in my initial post, GR does not just go out into combat on its own. A deck that would support GR would use cards that are traditionally card disadvantage (Rancor, Berserk, Riding the Dilu Horse, etc) to allow its unkillable monster to win.

This is the key with GR. He allows you to use good cards like those mentioned above that normally are not used in Legacy because of the "Swords in response" problem. As to blockers, Legacy has never been light on good removal spells that could easily be used alongside the Elemental to protect him from the big bad New Horizons crowd.

-ktkenshinx-
You're also missing something, which is that seven-mana creatures in Legacy are never actually cast; they are always cheated into play. Furthermore, those creatures don't require other cards to make them good because they have evasion built-in - see: Iona, Inkwell Leviathan, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, etc. This guy sucks as a Reanimator target because he has no evasion and a form of shroud that's worse than Iona's form of "shroud", and there are no other decks in Legacy remotely interested in getting to seven mana. I mean, yeah, Lands, but Lands would rather get to thirteen mana and use Mindslaver and Academy Ruins to actually win the game.

You're trying too hard to make a Limited bomb actually bomby outside of Limited.

[Jak]

As I said in my initial post, GR does not just go out into combat on its own. A deck that would support GR would use cards that are traditionally card disadvantage (Rancor, Berserk, Riding the Dilu Horse, etc) to allow its unkillable monster to win.

This is the key with GR. He allows you to use good cards like those mentioned above that normally are not used in Legacy because of the "Swords in response" problem. As to blockers, Legacy has never been light on good removal spells that could easily be used alongside the Elemental to protect him from the big bad New Horizons crowd.

-ktkenshinx-

So to make your seven mana creature good, you need another card? And you call these cards, "good cards" when they are played in fringe decks or once in a great while. Come on dude.

[Phoenix Ignition]

As I said in my initial post, GR does not just go out into combat on its own. A deck that would support GR would use cards that are traditionally card disadvantage (Rancor, Berserk, Riding the Dilu Horse, etc) to allow its unkillable monster to win.

This is the key with GR. He allows you to use good cards like those mentioned above that normally are not used in Legacy because of the "Swords in response" problem. As to blockers, Legacy has never been light on good removal spells that could easily be used alongside the Elemental to protect him from the big bad New Horizons crowd.

-ktkenshinx-

If you need to run pump cards to make the bomb even slightly useful why wouldn't you just use duress cards to "protect" a better bomb creature who actually has evasion and doesn't die to nacatl Kird Ape? Added bonus you wouldn't scoop as hard to combo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Gigapede is strictly better than Gaea's Revenge for all intents and purposes.

Let's move on.

[ThoseWhoFearTomorrow]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106721&d=1277697981

I misread it at first and thought it would only generate one token per trigger instead of two. 10+ power for 6 mana doesn't seem that bad, especially with Rituals. But good enough for Legacy? :eyebrow:

Isn't this card fantastic at marrying art and text? Zombies falling out of the dude's gut.......

[Gheizen64]

It's also decent in extended and standard, being a ten power for 6 that make 4 power each turn if it live. Broodmate saw play, this is arguably better. Not cutting it in Legacy at 6, but that's to be expected.

[DrJones]

Grave Titan would have been perfect if it had the flavor of summoning devils like the demons in Nethack.

Edit: Just saw the new slime, which has plenty of combo potential and the same cost than Saproling Burst.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

Gigapede is strictly better than Gaea's Revenge for all intents and purposes.

Let's move on.

hahaha, I'm reminded of that kid who wrote a tournament report and kept saying "For all intense purposes"


I too love the way the function of Grave Titan matches the art. Unlike the FNM Ghostly Prison. (Paper swords > Minotaur?)

[DuxDucis]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/boab/boab97_uiydg34e5d67f8guhbsr.jpg

Sick!

[edgewalker]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/boab/boab97_uiydg34e5d67f8guhbsr.jpg

Sick!

I mean whats it good in? Combo? I mean why not play Desperate Ritual?

EDIT: I think the lich looks cooler...

[ktkenshinx]

Three new cards today by my reckoning. Three new Legacy potentials (and not in the same way that I still believe Gaea's Revenge is); everyone can get on board with these bad boys.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/boab/boab97_uiydg34e5d67f8guhbsr.jpg

Belcher immediately comes to mind; it could definitely use extra Desperate Rituals to increase redundancy. It also might open up a bunch of additional storm combo decks (Dragonstorm of Extended days of glory comes to mind).

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/stf/stf97_utyscv5edfdlibwku23butyf6rytsdfa.png

This one I'm way more excited about, despite the vulnerability of artifacts to Krosan Grip in this format. But that said, 3 mana for a 5/5 Indestructible is a serious bargain. He takes an ugly dump on Merfolk and Goblins in game 1, and the play Turn 1: Pithing Needle, Qasali Pridemage - Turn 2: DRit, Thoughtseize/Duress, Lich is a scary prospect against Zoo. This guy would definitely need his own deck to be played, as no deck really fits this current strategy, but the bargain level here is amazing.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/M11/vbk1m54xmn_EN.jpg

Here's another bargain, but I am not entirely sold on him. The question here is simple; why is this better than Delraich, which sees absolutely no play in Legacy? The answer is also simple: it might not be. Zoo and Goblins can seriously abuse the a) lack of blockers and b) 6 life loss. Getting this guy countered is also an ugly prospect. Of course, if he resolves he's going to cause a lot of pain, but I am not sure that it's the best card for this format. Path and Swords certainly create a major tempo blowout if targeting the Demon, but a 9/9 Flying Trample is a major beatstick. Overall, however, I think the risks may not be worth the potential benefits.

Phylactery Lich and Pyretic Ritual, however, are different stories. The latter WILL see play, whether just in Belcher or in other storm decks (Red Stax is unlikely, although it will be suggested; does such a deck really need 8 Desperate Rituals when some builds don't even use 1?). Lich is a bit of a sleeper, but I really love him. I will restate my case for the Lich:

1) Pithing Needle (Qasali Pridemage), Phylactery Lich is a major roadblock for Zoo. Their only answer is to Path it, and given that you are playing black, you could easily Duress/Thoughtseize it away.
2) Merfolk and Goblins have no game 1 answers to this guy, unless they Stifle the enter the battlefield trigger.
3) He makes attacks completely unfavorable for virtually every aggro deck in the metagame. Even against New Horizons, the paradigm of hyper efficient creatures, Lich kills Goyf, chumps Knight, and soaks Terravore.
4) Multiple Lich's are unfair; the counters stick around.

All in all I think that Lich is an awesome card worth consideration. At 3 mana it fits beautifully inside the curve, and the synergy with Pithing Needle is excellent. Same goes for Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void.

-ktkenshinx-

[Vacrix]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/stf/stf97_utyscv5edfdlibwku23butyf6rytsdfa.png

This one I'm way more excited about, despite the vulnerability of artifacts to Krosan Grip in this format. But that said, 3 mana for a 5/5 Indestructible is a serious bargain. He takes an ugly dump on Merfolk and Goblins in game 1, and the play Turn 1: Pithing Needle, Qasali Pridemage - Turn 2: DRit, Thoughtseize/Duress, Lich is a scary prospect against Zoo. This guy would definitely need his own deck to be played, as no deck really fits this current strategy, but the bargain level here is amazing.
I'll be playing him in an SI man plan immediately. He's a baller. Might he make black aggro playable again? Except it would run artifact acceleration or something. Looks sick already. I'll take 4.

[heroicraptor]

2) Merfolk and Goblins have no game 1 answers to this guy, unless they Stifle the enter the battlefield trigger.

It's not a trigger. It's a replacement effect.

[Ozymandias]

So I guess Belcher cuts manamorphose and street wraith for Pyritual and Monolith? Or did monolith's 1 "sure" spot just disappear?

[Vacrix]

The ritual doesn't allow you to save mana and the deck has plenty of red mana already. You'll likely see more monolith than this new ritual. Its the worst red ritual of the few red has. Also, I think that Welder will be become more popular post-board in the Monolith builds, having extra artifacts to get that Belcher into play through countermagic.

[jrsthethird]

KotR, Goyf, Terravore, and the other hyper-efficient beaters of New Horizons do not have these strengths.

There are no other beaters in NH.


Or did monolith's 1 "sure" spot just disappear?

Yep.

[mchainmail]

There are no other beaters in NH.



Yep.

As opposed to the V. Clique in an SCG 1st place list?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33305

[MMogg]

Isn't this card fantastic at marrying art and text? Zombies falling out of the dude's gut.......

Agree, especially there are two falling dudes and the card creates two 2/2s.

Anyone else notice something strange about this cycle? 6 mana 6/6s... OMG, 666! (http://logosresourcepages.org/Occult/magic-g.htm)

[jrsthethird]

As opposed to the V. Clique in an SCG 1st place list?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33305

I forgot that some people still think it's better than the 3rd Terravore.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Is it just me, or is that lich dude playable with Darksteel Citadel

[Barook]

Is it just me, or is that lich dude playable with Darksteel Citadel
Darksteel produces :1:, the Lich costs :b::b::b:, so not really unless you ritual it out or have an Urborg in play.

The Lich seems kinda cool, although I would have prefered a manacost of :2::b: for better synergy with the 2-mana lands. Indestructible is decent, but not worth that much in a format where StP or sacrifice effects are common and Qasali is everywhere.

The better question is what deck runs enough artifacts and can support :b::b::b:.

[denial]

Is it just me, or is that lich dude playable with Darksteel Citadel

Its probably just you.

[Vacrix]

The better question is what deck runs enough artifacts and can support :b::b::b:.
SI plays 4 Petal, 4 LED, 4 Chrome Mox, while some builds also play 8 tallmen, not including artifacts post-board. Its hella playable in the board.

[Barook]

SI plays 4 Petal, 4 LED, 4 Chrome Mox, while some builds also play 8 tallmen, not including artifacts post-board. Its hella playable in the board.
Scars of Mirrodin could also add some nice, black-colored artifacts to support it in other decks.

[ktkenshinx]

SI plays 4 Petal, 4 LED, 4 Chrome Mox, while some builds also play 8 tallmen, not including artifacts post-board. Its hella playable in the board.
While Spanish Inquisition can indeed accomodate the card, I think that people want a deck that can actaully abuse the card, not just include it. That was the intent of my earlier comment about no decks being able to run it to its maximum potential. Besides, the SI artifacts, with the exception of Chrome Mox, are not the best phylactery options for our lich. Petal and LED were made to be broken. Sphere and Walker are both creatures that scream "Swords/Path me for some 2-1 card advantage!" Walker has the added problem of being burnable by Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Gempalm. Chrome Mox is admittedly a great choice for a Phylactery counter, but I am sure that a better deck exists that can use the Lich (or at least, a better deck can exist). This is not at all to detract from SI as a deck, or SI as a deck that can use, and even benefit from, the Lich. I am simply suggesting that there might be better, unbuilt options out there.

Some of the top Phylactery options are below:

-Chrome Mox
-Pithing Needle
-Thopter Foundry
-Grindstone
-Aether Vial

I have probably missed a few, but those are the ones that immediately come to mind. All of them fit a few criteria that make an artifact a good phylactery:

1) Costs less than 3: You want the phylactery out before the Lich.
2) Nonland: Wasteland vulnerabilitiy is just too dangerous, with the sole exception of Darksteel Citadel which, as noted, does not provide black mana, and is therefore not as good.
3) Noncreature: Maindecked artifact removal is quite rare in this format. Maindecked creature removal, on the other hand, is not.
4) "Good" cards: All of these artifacts are good on their own. No one would be disappointed to draw one of these cards without also drawing Lich. That gives the deck versatility and consistency.

-ktkenshinx-

[jrsthethird]

3) Noncreature: Maindecked artifact removal is quite rare in this format. Maindecked creature removal, on the other hand, is not.

Qasali Pridemage. Plus, everyone has Krosan Grip in their board.

What about Darksteel Ingot? You can have a deck with Ingots, Moxes, Citadels, and Urborgs, giving you plenty of acceleration to hit Lich on turn 3 (or earlier).

T1 - Swamp, Ritual, Ingot
T2 - Swamp, Lich

[mchainmail]

Qasali Pridemage. Plus, everyone has Krosan Grip in their board.

What about Darksteel Ingot? You can have a deck with Ingots, Moxes, Citadels, and Urborgs, giving you plenty of acceleration to hit Lich on turn 3 (or earlier).

T1 - Swamp, Ritual, Ingot
T2 - Swamp, Lich

I like running bad cards in my deck just to have a decent synergy with a vanilla beater.

[Iare]

I like phylactery lich I'm thinking it has some potential for a sui black comeback :D

Lands - 22
4x Wastelands
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Fetchlands
3x Urborg tomb of yawgmoth
7x Swamp


Creatures - 12
4x Tombstalker
4x Gatekeeper of malikar
4x phylactery lich

Spells- 24
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn To tourach
4x Inquisition
4x Smother
4x Phyrexian Arena
4x Chrome Mox
2x Dark Ritual

[coraz86]

Qasali Pridemage. Plus, everyone has Krosan Grip in their board.

What about Darksteel Ingot? You can have a deck with Ingots, Moxes, Citadels, and Urborgs, giving you plenty of acceleration to hit Lich on turn 3 (or earlier).

T1 - Swamp, Ritual, Ingot
T2 - Swamp, Lich

Run March of the Machines and Obliterate and you've got a modest long game. Plus now we've got Grim Monolith so we can Obliterate even faster. Willing to bet it's not any good in serious Legacy, but that deck was a blast in Standard (doubly so when I could get away with throwing a couple Rukh Egg in it).

[Arsenal]

Pithing Needles were maindecked as a 3-of for some time in Eva Green and then in some Mono-black builds emulating the Eva Green shell. Maindeck Pithing Needles, Chrome Mox, and some other useful, relevant artifact would probably give us enough Lich targets while not dilluting the deck down to fit Lich.

[ktkenshinx]

Qasali Pridemage. Plus, everyone has Krosan Grip in their board.

What about Darksteel Ingot? You can have a deck with Ingots, Moxes, Citadels, and Urborgs, giving you plenty of acceleration to hit Lich on turn 3 (or earlier).

T1 - Swamp, Ritual, Ingot
T2 - Swamp, Lich
I repeatedly mentioned Pridemage as a reason to run Needle/Lich in a deck. Besides, only Zoo runs the cat, and Needle--> Pridemage is a strong play even if you don't have a Lich around. As to Grip, that's fine with me. You can board out your liches and board in something else. You can also use Duress/Thoughtseize to remove the Grip in the early turns before it becomes a problem.

Ingot is a bad card. Good decks do not use bad cards.


Pithing Needles were maindecked as a 3-of for some time in Eva Green and then in some Mono-black builds emulating the Eva Green shell. Maindeck Pithing Needles, Chrome Mox, and some other useful, relevant artifact would probably give us enough Lich targets while not dilluting the deck down to fit Lich.
As I stated, Mox and Needle remain the best two choices for your Phylactery (although other options are still out there). Pridemage does not detract from the combo, and a game 2/3 Grip does not either.

-ktkenshinx-

[EssKay]

Demon of Death's Gate + Sengir Autocrat...more like Sengir AutoWIN!

[Gheizen64]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106843&stc=1&d=1277916836

Not sure if you can see the card. Text is:

Temple Bell 3
Artifact
T: each player draw a card

This is the replacement for Howling Mine. Aah, so beautiful of a design. Where before was a complicated card with little choices, now there's a super-simple card that involve a lot of choices when using it. May be or not be playable, but things like those make me happy as a maniac of design.

EDIT: ah, 2 card combo with Mind over matter that autowin. Draw 50 cards then play something uncounterable for 40+ and gg. Or even a single brainfreeze.

[morgan_coke]

so.. wait, its a worse Howling Mine? Win. Also, wasn't this card already printed, but better when it was called Mikokoro, Center of the Sea?

Nice catch on MoM combo.

[Barook]

EDIT: ah, 2 card combo with Mind over matter that autowin. Draw 50 cards then play something uncounterable for 40+ and gg. Or even a single brainfreeze.

Nice catch. Any ideas how to utilize this?

[SilverGreen]

so.. wait, its a worse Howling Mine? Win. Also, wasn't this card already printed, but better when it was called Mikokoro, Center of the Sea?

Nice catch on MoM combo.

Nice catch on the "2, Tap" part on Mikokoro.

[Vacrix]

Might we see more MoM.dec? It combos with Grim Monolith + Stroke as well. Hitting UUUU is hard though. I can see some control decks playing these cards and back it up with a combo win via MoM.

[Fons]

Turn one : Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, Priest of Gix, New Lich?

[ktkenshinx]

Nice catch. Any ideas how to utilize this?
If I were to utilize this, it would be pretty simple; play a deck with 61+ cards in it.

You can't try to combo out for a win condition, because your opponent gets to draw their deck too. I don't want to have to play through 3-4 FoW, 3-4 Daze, and 4 Mindbreak Trap when I am trying to win. That's a recipe for disaster, and it's generally a bad idea to get into a pissing match about who has more counters and disruption.

But flat out decking your opponent? That's a much more reasonable idea that your opponent really can't do anything about short of a Krosan Grip. If you start out with slightly more cards in your deck (or even if you play a mana base without Fetchlands and gamble on probability), you can just cast MoM and combo out on the spot for the win.

This is actually not a bad idea at all. As I mentioned regarding Lich, few decks pack maindeck artifact or enchantment removal, which means your game 1 could be pretty easy. You would need the right cards to supplement the strategy; defense against aggro and disruption.

Turn 1: Sea, Duress/Thoughtseize
Turn 2: Ancient Tomb, Bell with Daze/FoW backup.
Turn 3: Tutor for MoM (or Bell) with Enlightened Tutor.
Turn 4: Accelerate into MoM. Win.

The real beauty of the design? Enlightened Tutor gets the missing piece. This is the theory behind the CounterTop Thopters deck, and it could be the theory behind this one. 6 mana is a lot, but it does win you the game on the spot provided your low-costed Bell is already out there.

If anyone is interested in discussing such a deck in more detail, feel free to message me. I think it is a highly viable idea.

-ktkenshinx-

[Gheizen64]

Nice catch. Any ideas how to utilize this?

Painter - Grindstone is so much better (even if the parts are maybe worse on their own) and it's nothing spectacular, i don't think this has merit at all. To be honest, i think MoM is just a bad card nowadays. Also there were already some cards that tapped for card draw, so this isn't exactly "new".

And i don't think the card is worse than Mine. Being able to decide when to get the card is well worth the 1 in the format that would play mine.

[Chrommox]

holy fuck! Show and Tell -> MoMa.

[ktkenshinx]

Painter - Grindstone is so much better (even if the parts are maybe worse on their own) and it's nothing spectacular, i don't think this has merit at all. To be honest, i think MoM is just a bad card nowadays. Also there were already some cards that tapped for card draw, so this isn't exactly "new".

And i don't think the card is worse than Mine. Being able to decide when to get the card is well worth the 1 in the format that would play mine.
Painter can get killed with any of the maindecked removal spells in response to a Grindstone activation (Bolt, Chain, Path, Swords). That's a big problem, and makes you combo out on your opponent's terms instead of your own.

As to cards that tap to draw, there really aren't as many as you claim. Sure, there are a bunch of creatures, but we all know how vulnerable those are. As to noncreatures? Noncreatures that cost 3 mana or less? Noncreatures that cost 3 mana or less AND do not require an activation cost other than a tap? Gatherer didn't find any for me, so let me know if your search turns up any alternatives.

Besides, in the past the MoM strategy has involved drawing cards to find your win condition, or generating mana to cast a spell. Never before, to my knowledge, was it decking your opponent.

Temple Bell + Mind Over Matter is a DECKING combo, not a draw engine combo.

I will stick by this interpretation of the combo, as it strikes me as the most efficient, the most resilient, and the fastest.

-ktkenshinx-

[Vacrix]

Temple Bell + Mind Over Matter is a DECKING combo, not a draw engine combo.

I will stick by this interpretation of the combo, as it strikes me as the most efficient, the most resilient, and the fastest.

-ktkenshinx-
Why not just play Stroke and Monolith, Stroke your opponent for the win?

[ktkenshinx]

Why not just play Stroke and Monolith, Stroke your opponent for the win?
Assuming you are also using Temple Bell as part of this, your opponent is drawing cards too. That means more Force of Will and Daze for you to play through, maybe even some Misdirection. I would rather go with the straight up decking approach.

As has been pointed out, rolling with a single Progenitus or Emrakul is the way to go here. You won't deck yourself, but you will deck your opponent. Better yet would be Darksteel Colossus, which never actually hits the graveyard, rendering it immune to graveyard hate. Simply discard DSC and put it back into your deck, then tap the bell. Repeat and rinse. Even if your opponent has more cards in their deck than you, you will still have the DSC cycling in and out of your hand and library.

-ktkenshinx-

[Vacrix]

Apparently there is a card called 'Sword of Body and Mind' but only the name has been spoiled. Speculation??

[Aggro_zombies]

Apparently there is a card called 'Sword of Body and Mind' but only the name has been spoiled. Speculation??
Sword of Body and Mind :3:
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gets +2/+2 and has protection from creatures and spells.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, you may put a +1/+1 counter on it.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, until end of turn, all of your instant and sorcery spells cost :1: less to cast.
Equip :2:

EDIT: On a more serious note, if it's templated like the Sword of X and Y duo in Darksteel, it's probably pro: green and artifacts, with a "this doesn't cause this equipment to fall off" clause on the protection. I'll agree with Nihil that making 1/1 artifact tokens (Myr, maybe) seems fine, and the green bit will probably be a pump of some sort.

[denial]

I like running bad cards in my deck just to have a decent synergy with a vanilla beater.

I think I love you.

[Nihil Credo]

Sounds like the green vs. artifact piece I (and certainly many others) would have liked to complete the Sword of Fire and Ice / Sword of Light and Shadow cycle. Which, in such a case, may very well be seeing a reprint.

The most obvious candidate for the artifact trigger would most be creating an artifact creature token or fetching artifacts from the library - nearly anything else would 'feel' associated with some colour. The green trigger could be putting +1/+1 counters on a creature, some type of mana acceleration, or creating a creature token if the artifact trigger doesn't already do so.

EDIT: Wait, it's from Scars, not M11. So yeah, a full enemy pairs cycle (where this is U/G) seems then more likely than a new one + reprints.

[Barook]

Apparently there is a card called 'Sword of Body and Mind' but only the name has been spoiled. Speculation??
It's a preview card from Scars of Mirrodin - which means more Sword goodness. It's probably the pro blue & green one.


As has been pointed out, rolling with a single Progenitus or Emrakul is the way to go here. You won't deck yourself, but you will deck your opponent. Better yet would be Darksteel Colossus, which never actually hits the graveyard, rendering it immune to graveyard hate. Simply discard DSC and put it back into your deck, then tap the bell. Repeat and rinse. Even if your opponent has more cards in their deck than you, you will still have the DSC cycling in and out of your hand and library.
Add Show and Tell as suggested above for faster MoM and you have a sexy back-up plan with fatties.

[Aggro_zombies]

It's a preview card from Scars of Mirrodin - which means more Sword goodness. It's probably the pro blue & green one.
The problem is, we already have a pro: blue one (Sword of Fire and Ice). We're just missing green and artifacts/colorless.

Colorless actually seems more interesting given the theme of Rise of the Eldrazi, Wizards' love for cross-block synergy, and a couple other corner-case interactions (can't be blocked by Mutavault, YAUS).

Also, the new Bell + MoM combo is worse than Painter-Servant. I mean, at bare minimum it costs :5::u: as opposed to :6:, and if you don't have Show and Tell it costs :5::u::u::u::u:, which is beyond terrible.

[morgan_coke]

Add Show and Tell as suggested above for faster MoM and you have a sexy back-up plan with fatties.

Right. Because that plans been working out so well for Dream Halls.dec.

[Barook]

The problem is, we already have a pro: blue one (Sword of Fire and Ice). We're just missing green and artifacts/colorless.
Considering how popular the first two swords were, I wouldn't be suprised if they made the rest of the enemy color combinations.

[ktkenshinx]

Also, the new Bell + MoM combo is worse than Painter-Servant. I mean, at bare minimum it costs :5::u: as opposed to :6:, and if you don't have Show and Tell it costs :5::u::u::u::u:, which is beyond terrible.
Servant can be killed in response to a Grindstone activation by one of the many maindecked kill spells in the format. There are currently no decks, at least not tier 1, that maindeck artifact or enchantment removal in any serious quantity (with ONE exception, that being Zoo, and that being a strike against both decks, not just this one).

As to the mana cost, if spread out over two turns, this does not become a problem. A turn 2-4 Bell into a turn 4-5 MOM is a perfectly viable play, especially because you can win on the spot. Technically speaking, Ad Nauseam + Tendrils is a 5BBBB mana kill, but that obviously is not a strike against it. The deck that housed this combo would certainly be able to accomodate its high mana cost whether through hard acceleration like Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, and Grim Monolith, or through virtual acceleration like Show and Tell.

As to the similarities to Dream Hall that morgan_coke brings up, they really are different decks. They have different vulnerabilities and different play styles. Its win condition is also not as lethal as the MOM+Bell one.

-ktkenshinx-

[Grumpollion]

The skeleton could be useful with Contamination

I am intrigued by this idea, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter!

[TheRock]

Bell and MoM doesn't need another card to go with it if you have more must counters than your opponent, enough cards left to do what you want to do, and have a sure-fire way to get rid of Counterbalance if your opponent is playing it.

Permanent Waves may have just found a card that it can use to beat control - assuming it can assemble the two cards together. Bell should be crazy good against control on its own anyway.

EDIT: Scratch the above statement - sorry.

[TheCramp]

The best thing about Temple Bell, from my perspective, is that I suspect they would not print TWO 3 mana permanents which cause all players to draw a card in the same set. This would indicate that Jace the Mind Sculptor is in M11. I could be wrong, but I hope not.

[Vacrix]

Conundrum Sphinx is amazing with SDT...


Conundrum Sphinx 2UU
Creature - Sphinx
Flying
Whenever Conundrum Sphinx attacks, each player names a card. Then each player reveals the top card of his or her library. If the card a player revealed is the card he or she named, that player puts that card into his or her hand. If it's not, that player puts it on the bottom of his or her library.
4/4

Beats for 4 evasively at 4cc, and draws you cards you already know whats on top of your library when you have top out.

[Hanni]

4cc 4/4 flying is solid. It's blue, so you have Brainstorm/Ponder/Top/etc to go along with it. Seems like it might find a home in some of the Supreme Blue CounterTop decks, maybe in the Jace TMS or Sower spots. It's basically like a blue Dark Confidant for that deck that actually puts on a great clock. Seems like a good finisher to me.

[Aggro_zombies]

Previews for today: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=253564

I need lots of that Shaman for EDH.

For those who can't see it:

Fauna Shaman
:1::g:
Creature - Elf Shaman (rare)
:g:, T, Discard a creature card: Search your library for a creature card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
2/2

[Tilde]

Previews for today: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=253564

I need lots of that Shaman for EDH.

For those who can't see it:

Fauna Shaman
:1::g:
Creature - Elf Shaman (rare)
:g:, T, Discard a creature card: Search your library for a creature card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
2/2

Yo, dawg! It's a Survival you can grab with Survival!

[Vacrix]

Previews for today: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=253564

I need lots of that Shaman for EDH.

For those who can't see it:

Fauna Shaman
:1::g:
Creature - Elf Shaman (rare)
:g:, T, Discard a creature card: Search your library for a creature card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
2/2
The fuck?! I think GW Survival just had a field day.

[Vacrix]

Also... why has this card gotten 0 attention so far? Its broken!

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106877&stc=1&d=1277957022

Wait... is that a Vedalken Orrery that you can begin the game with it in play? Wow.. turning any deck into Solidarity sounds pretty badass. I'm sure this will be broken as hell. Might combo play it? I'd love to see some Serum Powder post-boards including this.

[menace13]

How about that new leyline, instant speed anything, although it is in blue which isn't lacking instant speed? Oh and any guesses as to what the other Leylines will be like?

[Vacrix]

This leyline is fucking amazing. I can't wait to see the new ones. The old ones were underwhelming at the cost of actually having to hardcast them at 4. The other ones must be mediocre compared to this one.

[menace13]

This leyline is fucking amazing. I can't wait to see the new ones. The old ones were underwhelming at the cost of actually having to hardcast them at 4. The other ones must be mediocre compared to this one.

Heh, I think so too just by the look. Anything at instant speed seems powerful. Like Dream Halls can now go off on your turn, Cbalance+Top in response!!! Is that an EOT Natural Order?? I'm excited!

[Hanni]

Holy shit, Fauna Shaman is disgusting. So now Survival decks have 8 Survivals, 4 of them on legs?