[Free Article] Introducing Shelldock Doomsday

[Piceli89]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19413_Legacys_Allure_Introducing_Shelldock_Doomsday.html

A very powerful deck that may rise to tier1 status very easily, since it can bypass the most dangerous hate for storm combo: Counterbalance, with the Shelldock Isle+Doomsday-->Emrakul combo.
Thanks to Doug Linn for the good article, I appreciated it.

[(nameless one)]

Isn't this also known as Rev 6:19?

[DireLemming]

Isn't this also known as Rev 6:19?

Rev614 tends to run Show and Tell & FoW. This is pulpfiction's more aggressive variation.

[Mark Sun]

About Rev614, You have no idea how sad I am that I sold my Show and Tells a month ago.

The other deck in the article looks like fun to play as well. Why the hell isn't Doug Linn premium?

[say no to scurvy]

rev 6:19?

...

seriously?

[Tacosnape]

Ok, seriously? The Shelldock Isle combo is complete garbage. If you can't Top and Brainstorm after your Doomsday, it gives them two full turns when you're at half life. If you can, it gives them one. This gives Zoo tremendous racing potential. And Wasteland stops it. Therefore you're taking a combo deck and giving decks like Goblins, Lands, and 300 other decks a zero mana way to stop it. I'm quite aware the deck can win multiple other ways, but why include this at all? Why would you play this over the face-wrecking Ad Nauseam Tendrils?

[emidln]

Because it's heavily favorable vs counterbalance decks.

Vs Zoo, Goblins, Lands, etc
If you cast doomsday into shelldock isle on a turn that isn't your first, there's a strong chance you'll lose. Even if you do cast it turn 1, if it's not on the play vs Zoo, you probably need to reconsider. The nice thing about needing to know whether Rit->Doomsday is a good or bad idea on the draw is that they make a play first.

Want to know the solution that doesn't involve letting Zoo attack you and burn you a lot? You kill them with Tendrils. there is a pass the turn pile that costs 1U next turn that requires 1 of 16 cards + 1 extra card in hand to Tendrils them for 20 on turn 2. Or, you know, you could just do what ANT does and cast IT->Ill-Gotten Gains with all those same rituals that ANT plays.

Differences in the acceleration package:

-1 Cabal Ritual (maybe, a lot of lists run 3 Cabal Rit)
-2 Chrome Mox

Casting Ad Nauseam past turn 1, like casting Doomsday is incredibly dumb vs a Zoo player who had mana up. The difference is that Doomsday won't ever fizzle and most of the time you cast it, you're either doing it turn 1 to kill turn 2 or winning that turn anyway.

[hi-val]

I attempted to not step on anyone's toes regarding who made the deck or changed it and when it happened. In no way do I want to present this as original to me. It, more than many decks in the past few months, has fit the "whoa, that is COOL!" category that my readers enjoy.

Note that you can cast any spell from the Isle; Emrakul is the immediately obvious one, but there may be something cool you can do with Sway the Stars or Reverse the Sands or the like to win even faster, with worse cards : )

[alderon666]

It's a cool deck, I see no reason why it couldn't be a fair contender. Doomsday is very powerful as a storm engine and this version of the deck evades a lot of commonly played hate. The bigger threat density is a real biggy against CB and other counter-all-you-play-decks. The problem I can sense is the huge amount of dead cards, Meditate in my DDANT build is oftenly a very good spell if you resolve it when the opponent has no pressure... but Emrakul and Shelldock Isle are completly worthless and just clog up your hand.

Passing the turn multiple times with your life halved is bad, even against CB.

[ktkenshinx]

This is a cool deck and Linn's construction of it is powerful. Storm + Shelldocked Emrakul is a robust design that seems to give the deck a lot of options. Unfortunately, it has more vulnerabilities than strengths, most of which seem to disqualify the deck as a tier 1 contender. The top two "combo" decks in the format are ANT (unquestionably) and Reanimator (Arguably). These decks should serve as the archetypical combo models that other decks should follow. ANT is incredibly resilient and fast, with lots of options and lots of durability against hatred. Reanimator is capable of being hyper-explosive (DRit, Entomb, Reanimate) or slow and steady, waiting for a screen of Daze/FoW/Thoughtseize before attempting to get a heavy hitter into play. Neither deck folds to targeted hatred; graveyard hate? Use Show and Tell. Shelldock Doomsday, in trying to combine two strengths (Storm and doomsday), also opens itself up to varied weaknesses.

1. Wasteland
This is an obvious one, and Linn acknowledges it. That said, he only barely acknowledges it, and that seems like a huge problem. According to deckcheck.net, Waesteland is the 5th most played card in Legacy. While that does not reflect its proportion amongst decks (Goblins and Merfolk are Wasteland heavy, ANT and Reanimator are Wasteland light, etc.), it definitely indicates its overall prevalence. Because of this prevalence, Linn really should have gone in to greater detail about methods of countering Wasteland. Yet, he only gives three. First, he jokes about using Twiddle. Bad idea obviously, but there might be some techy sideboard options out there. Twiddle is just a lazy example of one such possibility. Second, he talks about "calculated gambles"; if you already saw one Wasteland, you can risk dropping a Shelldock because it might be unlikely that your opponent has another. This, however, is predicated on a bad assumption; that your opponent already used their Wasteland on another land.
If Shelldock Doomsday is completely rogue, then an opponent might very well nuke a Sea earlier rather than saving the Wasteland for later. But once the deck becomes known, then Wasteland is going to stay menacingly untapped, waiting to blast a Shelldock into oblivion. If your opponent waits for this moment, which is a reasonable assumption, "calculated risks/gambles" become much harder to pull off.
Finally, Linn mentions Pithing Needle. This is not a bad option, especially against Goblins. Unfortunately, it is one more vulnerable piece in the deck, and it doesn't actually get rid of the Wastelands. If a Needle gets Shattering Spree'd or Ingot Chewed, your Shelldock is going to be just as vulnerable as it was before the Needle hit play. Are there ways to deal with Wasteland? Certainly, but the explicit weakness to Wasteland on top of FoW/Daze/Duress is a big danger. Combo decks have enough problems without having to worry about their chief combo piece getting wasted.

2. Doomsday's life cost
Linn mentions this, but does not give it enough credit. People always seem to forget the "lose half life" clause of Doomsday. That's a big goddamn chunk of life! It's really really damn big against any of the fast aggro decks in the format. Tacosnape's objections are good ones. Goblins and Zoo, and to a lesser extent Merfolk, will happily take advantage of the free life loss. In the best case scenario, it's not so bad; a turn 1 Doomsday into a turn 2 Shelldock into a turn 3 win is probably fast enough to slay the aggro hordes, especially if you are on the play. But what if you are on the draw? What if you can't execute the turn 1 Doomsday? That's an extra turn, or two extra turns, granted to your opponent. A turn 2 Doomsday for half brings you down to at most 10 life. That lets Zoo swing at you on their turn 3; 1 Nacatl, 1 Goyf/Lynx, and 1 burn spell. 9+ damage coming at your head? No thanks. 9+ damage coming at you on turn 3 AFTER the Nacatl/Lynx swung for 3+ on turn 2? That's just game over. Autolosing to Zoo, one of the top 5 most played decks in the format, even if only in SOME games and not all, is ugly.
Now, I admit that the Storm option is a much more viable countermeasure against fast aggro. But in games 2 and 3, when the hate gets boarded in to counter your plans, this might not be a viable option. Shelldock lacks the focus of the more dedicated Storm combo decks.

3. The Storm component
This quote says it all: "This deck is not straight-up superior to Ad Nauseam Tendrils or any of the Next-Level Storm variants floating around, since you are more vulnerable to black disruption spells and the like. You cannot do a total reload with Ad Nauseam, nor do you have Force of Will backing up your spells, like some storm decks pack." The vulnerability to black disruption spells is a problem, but not a big one. You are running redundant combos, so one of them is probably going to slip through the discard shield. A far larger problem is the lack of FoW. I am not a proponent of "NEEDZ MOAR FOW", a philosophy that prevails in most Legacy circles. Not all decks need FoW, and not even all blue decks need FoW. This deck, however, might badly need it. It has a lot of vulnerabilities, ranging from the common (enemy countermagic and disruption) to the aggro based (a 4+ power Goyf, a hasted Piledriver), and again to the anti-storm tools (Thorn of Amethyst, Arcane Laboratory, Mindbreak Trap, etc.) That's a load of threats, and a lot for your measly 4 Duress's to handle. Adding in additional discard spells (4 Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek in the board) might help, but it also makes your deck a little discard heavy, and potentially clunky out of the gates.

Listing weaknesses is usually bad form when critiquing decks. What do the following cards have in common? FoW/Daze/Mindbreak Trap/Duress/Thoughtseize; they are all specialized tools that ostensibly wreck ANT. Yet, ANT reigns supreme as a combo deck. Similarly, Tormod's Crypt/Ravenous Trap/Relic of Progenitus/Countermagic/Discard also ostensibly wreck Reanimator. Yet again, this is a powerful and viable Tier 1/1.5 deck.
Shelldock is a bit different. It has weaknesses like all of these decks, but it just has so many of them. It has graveyard-based weaknesses (Ill-Gotten Gains requires the yard). It has storm based weaknesses (Mindbreak Trap screws with a Shelldock Tendrils just as much as it does a Tendrils from an ANT pilot). It has aggro weaknesses (Doomsday gives your opponent almost 2 free attack phases). It has standard combo weaknesses (vulnerabilities to discard and countermagic). It even has specific vulnerability that no other combo deck has to Wasteland, the 5th most played card in the format.
As I said, that's a lot of weaknesses no matter how we spin it. Are they surmountable? Perhaps, with the right combination of sideboard, pilot, and metagame.

Suggestions
Transformational Sideboard: In certain matchups, ditch the Doomsday part of the deck and augment the storm half. An Ad Nauseam package in the board is a viable option. This solves both the storm-hatred that will get boarded in against you (Mindbreak Trap is pretty bad against Doomsday), AND gives you a better aggro game.

Pithing Needle: The problem with Needle is that it solves a lot of matchups that are already supposed to be "solved." Needle messes with decks like Dredge and Countertop, but you already should have those matchups in the bag through one of your two game plans. It only fixes the Wasteland problem, but it doesn't do it very well. It's sorcery speed, vulnerable to bounce and destruction, and slows down the deck.

Stifle/Trickbind: I really like these options, especially Trickbind. Except for Duress, there is absolutely nothing an opponent can do against Trickbind. It's especially nasty against Merfolk, who will happily sit on a Wasteland with FoW backup to mess up your plans. On turn 2 or 3, you will probably have 2 mana untapped to cast it, and it will save you games against the control-based Wasteland users.

Overall, I like the deck, but it has problems that need addressing, moreso than most combo decks.

-ktkenshinx-

[emidln]

I find it sad that people make suggestions before learning how to play the deck. Here's a quick scenario: it's turn 1 and your opponent opened taiga, kird ape, go. You have Lotus Petal, Island, Cabal Ritual, Doomsday, Sensei's Divining Top, Thoughtseize, Polluted Delta. What do you do? If you cast Doomsday, what pile do you make? If you go for Shelldock->Emrakul you probably lose. If you read my primer on the deck, you kill them with a Tendrils of Agony and 9 storm copies on turn 2.

There is a super techy solution to Goblins and Zoo: Dark Ritual. Hint: you want to cast it. Then you might cast some other acceleration. Then you cast Doomsday or Infernal Tutor. One of these ends up getting you an Ill-Gotten Gains. You play a bunch of spells, then you play a Tendrils. Make sure to remind your opponent just how bad your aggro match is while you're goldfishing them.

Lifeloss doesn't matter vs aggro since you're rarely passing the turn. Most of your Zoo and Goblins wins come on turn 2-3 when you storm out with Doomsday + draw spell or Infernal Tutor->IGG. Sure, you sometimes go turn 1 Doomsday, go to setup IGG->Tendrils turn 2, but that's rare. The really interesting part of this matchup is that your opponent has to tap out. This makes their only playable card Fireblast (for Zoo, Goblins has nothing). If they're not tapping out on turn 1-2, they don't have enough pressure on you and you can IGG them at a safe life total. If they are tapping you, you can IGG them at a safe total or Doomsday them well out of range of Fireblast.

If you really feel like playing for Emrakul (which is a bad idea against Goblins as they have a ton of ways to deal with it, besides just racing or Wasteland), you bring in Pithing Needle and set that up in your pile. This is a lot worse than just storming them, but the option is there.

People who want to "reload" with Ad Nauseam probably never played Fetchland Tendrils or Iggy Pop. Those decks, which this is directly descended from, loved the discard matchup since all we have to do is throw down artifact mana and SDTs and wait for a business spell. Their pressure isn't that good and they will lose as soon as we find a Mystical Tutor, Infernal Tutor, and likely even a Doomsday.

[GreenHornet]

I actually built a similar deck list, but not certain about the actual combo, it had a transformational sideboard. Main board it doesn't include the ill-gotten gains storm combo, but did run ad nauseam, tendrils, and ill-gotten gains in the side. The main board packs a set of force of will, and 2 doomsday.
It did fairly decent in a small tournament. The only loss was to an astral slide deck that got the nuts draw two games with wasteland, chant and thoughtseize.
If anyone is interested in a list let me know.
Props on the article. I really like publicity for the deck.

[denial]

I actually built a similar deck list, but not certain about the actual combo, it had a transformational sideboard... The only loss was to an astral slide deck...If anyone is interested in a list let me know.


AWESOME! You should definitely post the list.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@ktkenshinx: That is probably the longest and most inaccurate post I have ever read. Dude, this is like DDANT except its ever BETTER against blue. The last tournament I took this deck to I beat Goblins twice, and I even went for a Shelldock Pile after he went land, go and built a Pithing Needle stack. At the end of the game he flashed me the Mindbreak Trap in his hand, never even having the chance to play it ... they bring in Crypt/Leyline ... awesome, I will bounce it and IGG out, build and Emrakul Stack, or build a Meditate stack.

The whole point is this, your opponent has hate cards ... awesome. You don't care, you have so many different strategies towards winning, your opponent stops one, you just go another route or answer the hate and flat out win. Wasteland .... awesome, meet Pithing Needle or watch me IGG into Tendrils. I hope Zoo can deal 10 damage by their turn 2 otherwise ... they lose. But hell, you don't even have to win that way, you can DD into Tendrils, or just IGG loop, or natural storm with Tops + mana. You don't have to win every game with Emrakul.

[ktkenshinx]

@ktkenshinx: That is probably the longest and most inaccurate post I have ever read. Dude, this is like DDANT except its ever BETTER against blue. The last tournament I took this deck to I beat Goblins twice, and I even went for a Shelldock Pile after he went land, go and built a Pithing Needle stack. At the end of the game he flashed me the Mindbreak Trap in his hand, never even having the chance to play it ... they bring in Crypt/Leyline ... awesome, I will bounce it and IGG out, build and Emrakul Stack, or build a Meditate stack.

The whole point is this, your opponent has hate cards ... awesome. You don't care, you have so many different strategies towards winning, your opponent stops one, you just go another route or answer the hate and flat out win. Wasteland .... awesome, meet Pithing Needle or watch me IGG into Tendrils. I hope Zoo can deal 10 damage by their turn 2 otherwise ... they lose. But hell, you don't even have to win that way, you can DD into Tendrils, or just IGG loop, or natural storm with Tops + mana. You don't have to win every game with Emrakul.

I was not really concerned about this deck's vulnerability to blue decks. The only specific blue problems I mentioned were countermagic, and every combo-based deck has to account for that. Some do it better than others, and some do not.

Historically, the redundant win strategy combo decks have not done that well. Given that this is another entry into that long list, I am simply listing its many weaknesses. To say that it has "so many different strategies" is a bit of an overstatement. It has two ways of winning: Emrakul and Tendrils. It has a few ways to resolve both win conditions and protect them, but not nearly as many as some people are making it out to be.

As to Zoo, you are assuming a lot of things. First, that you start. Second, that you resolve a turn 1 Doomsday. Third, that they have a suboptimal start. Zoo on the play in game 2 is more than capable of firing off a turn 3 10 damage burst. Same goes for Goblins. Merfolk is an even nastier matchup, given its abudnance of control elements and a relatively quick clock.

Again, I am not saying the deck is bad. I am simply pointing out a series of weaknesses that others are noticing too.

-ktkenshinx-

[emidln]

If you cast Doomsday turn one vs zoo it's because you're playing for this pile:

Brainstorm
LED
LED
SDT/Ponder
IGG
Tendrils

You have one of these in hand, another card, and 1U next turn. They lose when you untap and they don't get a turn 3.

[death]

It, more than many decks in the past few months, has fit the "whoa, that is COOL!" category that my readers enjoy.

I have a failrly new deck idea that'll also fall into this category. Do you mind writing an article for it next month?

This so-called Doomsday deck (conceptualized under Shelldrazi thread) never really hit big here in TheSource, where as in Salvation and SCG, they're absolutely loving it. The primer that emidln wrote is already at page 7.

Anyways for those who are pessimistic, I'd say the deck is consistent and even mulligans very well. In fact, this is the only deck I play that can mulligan below 4 cards and still win consistently. If it loses g1, I'm sure post-board it can surely drop the bomb.

[DragoFireheart]

Wouldn't this deck have issues with Merfolk since they pack Stifles, Wastelands and Counters? (Many answers for this decks win cons?)

[dahcmai]

Yes, Merfolk would be a problem. The idea is more to aim this trick at decks that have no good answer for it, but have amazing hate vs the normal versions of tendrils. Counterbalance being the prime contender to shut down a normal Ad Nauseum deck is practically helpless in the face of Shelldock/Emrakul. They counter the Doomsday or lose. That is a huge advantage vs a deck that normally can just trounce on Tendrils combo.

I was putting the two cards in my board since it is kind of singular in purpose. If I run into counterbalance, it goes in. I'd rather just rely on the normal Ad Nauseum and storm up Doomsday version for the main. It's not like it's nessesary to win off Emrakul, it's just good for certain matches where the normal storm win is tough to do.

This combo isn't worth building an entire deck off of since there's plenty of decks out there that can shut it down by accidentally running Wastes, Stifles, mass burn, and even things like Edict to a small degree. It is one heck of a way to shore up normally bad match ups for a tendrils deck against the things it wants the help most against.

[hi-val]

I have a failrly new deck idea that'll also fall into this category. Do you mind writing an article for it next month?

This so-called Doomsday deck (conceptualized under Shelldrazi thread) never really hit big here in TheSource, where as in Salvation and SCG, they're absolutely loving it. The primer that emidln wrote is already at page 7.

Anyways for those who are pessimistic, I'd say the deck is consistent and even mulligans very well. In fact, this is the only deck I play that can mulligan below 4 cards and still win consistently. If it loses g1, I'm sure post-board it can surely drop the bomb.

I'd take a look! Send me a PM : )

[Vacrix]

Again, I am not saying the deck is bad. I am simply pointing out a series of weaknesses that others are noticing too.
You aren't saying the deck is bad, you are putting too much emphasis on the seriousness of its weaknesses. Sure there are ways to fight back against Rev614, but as Pulp explains, the nature of the deck facilitates a non-linear approach unlike the linear combo decks you claim dominate the format. Doomsday piles are good because they are flexible. The weaknesses you describe are indeed legitimate methods of attempting to stop the deck; however, flexibility addresses these weaknesses more effectively than you give credit. I agree that Doug's analysis of how Rev614 fights through hate was lacking. The problem is that he left out a lot of details on DD piles because they are article length already.

It was a decent article but I expected Doug to provide a little bit more meat. People are likely to criticize the deck in the same way that ktkenshinx did simply because they do not understand the deck. Deck builders always say 'play the deck and then you will understand'. Especially with this deck, I'm not sure that this 'play it to understand it' approach would work simply because the complexity of its decision tree is far removed from the conventional decision tree. Doug's readers will likely try it on MWS for the "whoa that's COOL" effect... and then drop it because they really have no idea what they are doing. Playing any deck with Doomsday requires the pilot to be familiar with DD piles to pilot the deck effectively. Obviously Doug doesn't need to reiterate what emidln and cheeseburger wrote but he could have provided a deeper insight into the argument for Doomsday as a viable storm engine (other than it has many permutations, heres the link...) because as we can see, some are still skeptical of Doomsday's powerlevel.

[emidln]

It's not like playing Zoo vs Merfolk, but it's better than any ANT build vs Merfolk that I have seen or tested. You play the cards that hurt Merfolk the best (targetted discard and xantid swarm) along with win conditions that ignore their fast starts.

I see Merfolk and Counterbalance as the reasons to play this deck instead of something like NLS or UB ANT. It's still very good vs Zoo, but it's much better against the most common tempo and control decks. Lands is a bye. Reanimator seems to be about split, but in this matchup quick Doomsdays are (a) cheaper than Ad Nauseam and (b) more plentiful. Reanimator doesn't have an out to your standard Emrakul pile including Wipe Away game two, and their postboard tactics are going to have to need to deal with possible graveyard hate (2 IT, 1 Cabal Rit, 2 Pithing Needle in the board is probably better spent on Leyline of the Voids and/or Extirpates) in Extirpate/Leyline along with Pithing Needles for your shelldocks. This puts a lot of stress on their deck as they need a certain amount of combo slots slots, protection, manipulation, etc to fend off your Duress effects. ANT seems like it would be unfavorable, but I've honestly not tested the matchup. If you were super concerned about ANT siding up to the 8 Duress and modifying the maindeck to include 2 Burning Wish as an out to Sad Sac (also seen from Reanimator sometimes) along with the sb Sad Sac seems like a way to go.

That said, NLS packing sb Shelldock + Doomsday top4'd the European GPT last week so maybe staying as an ANT deck and bringing this in vs CB is okay or even correct.

[alderon666]

You are looking at it wrong, you're only going Shelldock Isle + Emrakul when you can garantee not getting blown out but Stifle and Waste. Otherwise you just play Doosmday and Tendrils them out.

I'm not even saying the deck is good, I haven't tested it yet. But you seem to be underestimating Doosmday as a storm engine. For me the ability to go off at 2 life is huge and gives you a lot more time to fight hate/counters than AdN does.

[GreenHornet]

AWESOME! You should definitely post the list.
I just posted it here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17048-%5BDeck%5D-Shelldrazi&p=459896&viewfull=1#post459896)

[Rico Suave]

It's not like playing Zoo vs Merfolk, but it's better than any ANT build vs Merfolk that I have seen or tested. You play the cards that hurt Merfolk the best (targetted discard and xantid swarm) along with win conditions that ignore their fast starts.

Playing cards that are good against Merfolk is only half the picture. You also play a bunch of cards that are terrible against Merfolk.

Don't you SB out the Shelldock shenanigans against Merfolk? I fail to see how this build is better against Merfolk than any of your previous ANT lists that would SB into the Doomsday package.

[ktkenshinx]

You aren't saying the deck is bad, you are putting too much emphasis on the seriousness of its weaknesses. Sure there are ways to fight back against Rev614, but as Pulp explains, the nature of the deck facilitates a non-linear approach unlike the linear combo decks you claim dominate the format. Doomsday piles are good because they are flexible. The weaknesses you describe are indeed legitimate methods of attempting to stop the deck; however, flexibility addresses these weaknesses more effectively than you give credit. I agree that Doug's analysis of how Rev614 fights through hate was lacking. The problem is that he left out a lot of details on DD piles because they are article length already.
I also admit that I would have liked to read more about the DD pile versatility, but in all fairness, Linn did attach an article that proved helpful in getting an understanding of the deck:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13968-[Free-Article]-Crafting-Doomsday-Piles-in-Legacy-Storm-Combo
The link in his document is broken, but a quick Google search was easily able to remedy that problem and give me access to the article.
Now, I concede that this article deals neither with the exact decklist in question, nor with the 'modern' Legacy metagame. That said, no one would argue that it is not an extremely useful and guiding piece of writing. Feeling unsatisfied with my DD pile knowledge, I also read a few other articles and threads regarding the piling:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/9361_Rehearsing_the_Doomsday_Scenario_Learning_How_to_Build_Optimal_Doomsday_Piles.html

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=242014

http://sites.google.com/site/emidln/doomsdaystacks

The Source's "Shelldrazi" thread in the New and Developmental Decks forum is also on this reading list. Some of these articles were more helpful than others, but all of them gave a good idea about piling and how to make optimal piles with DD.

I both goldfished the deck and tested it against a brief gauntlet of the top 5 Legacy decks as of Februray 2010 (Zoo, Merfolk, CounterTop, ANT, and Temp Thresh). I also tested against Goblins, because I had a sneaky suspicion that this matchup might be a grim one. No, I am not a master at piloting DD, nor have I had much practice. But I took the games incredibly slowly, calculating out each play, and even returning to various scenarios to construct alternate DD piles. I was consistently disappointed with the deck's performance, even repeating scenarios to produce optimal results.

Testing, while admittedly somewhat limited, consistently showed that Emrakul was a superior play against Tempo Thresh and CounterTop, whereas Tendrils was superior against Zoo. I am not griping about the Emrakul win's potential against these control decks; it consistently performed well, even after sideboarding, and even if my opponent's drew countermagic heavy hands. One game I played through an active CounterTop lock and a FoW/Daze pairing. It's a resilient deck, that much is for sure.

But the aggro matchup is ugly. This is especially true of the Merfolk matchup. The first problem comes around when you don't have a Top on the field or a Brainstorm in your hand. This is the ugly scenario in which your opponent gets a turn to do something before you combo out. As any statistician will tell you, the odds of having both Doomsday and Top/Brainstorm are far lower than having just DD/BS/Top. If you can't go off right after Doomsday, you are in deep trouble, and no amount of clever piling will save you; both Merfolk and (especially) Zoo/Goblins are able to deal 10 or less damage by turn 3. Now, the Zoo/Goblins problem is not as bad in a number of cases. Turn 1/2 DRit/CRit into DD, especially on the play, leaves you poised for a turn 3 win with Tendrils. Goblins has some options here, especially if they have a Port out, but Zoo is pretty screwed. Merfolk is the big problem.

Here are a number of scenarios that continually came up in testing.

Turn 1 Cursecatcher
Your opponent opens with Island and Cursecatcher.
This is a bad start to a bad game. They have 1, probably 2, maybe even 3 means of countering your spells. Unless you drew a Lotus Petal, this effectively locks you out of turn 1 plays. In fact, it also probably locks you out of turn 2 and even 3 plays.

Turn 2 Standstill
Your opponent dropped a turn 1 Vial which now has 1 counter, and a turn 2 Standstill.
They almost assuredly have either a Cursecatcher, a Daze, or a FoW in hand. If Standstill triggers, they will probably have 2 of the 3. This is like the above scenario, and prohibits you from really playing spells. The lone exception to this is Duress, which, if you can resolve, can drastically improve this situation.

These were the worst scenarios that kept recurring. The problem with Merfolk is not just the outrageous number of cards that counter your plans (4 each of FoW/Daze/Stifle/Cursecatcher/Wasteland). It's that they combine it with a clock that is easily capable of doing 10 or less damage in a dead turn after Doomsday. Moreover, and here's the biggest problem, they are capable of stopping your ENTRANCE into the DD pile. That is, they can Stifle the Top activation and counter the Brainstorm. This all happens before you can draw into your clever pile.

I would be happy to hear solutions to these specific problems. As some of you might understand, I am a huge advocate for innovative decks and strategies in this format. But I believe I speak for most players when I say this: it is uncomfortable to play a deck that has such a poor matchup (Seemingly poor, at least) against the first/second most played deck in the overall metagame (source: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18922_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Chapin_Was_Right_A_Legacy_Result_Overview.html)

-ktkenshinx-

[hi-val]

Against Merfolk, I am currently testing the plan of +3 Show and Tell, +3 Blazing Archon/Emrakul. You can basically just Duress out their one counter, then S&T in either Emrakul or Blazin' Saddles and shut them down. 5-6 slots on the board for the match is kind of yucky, but you also save space by not really needing Xantid Swarms.

Another option includes boarding in 4 Confidant and 2 or more Tendrils and just going the Bob Tendrils plan.

[Forbiddian]

Ok, seriously? The Shelldock Isle combo is complete garbage. If you can't Top and Brainstorm after your Doomsday, it gives them two full turns when you're at half life. If you can, it gives them one. This gives Zoo tremendous racing potential. And Wasteland stops it. Therefore you're taking a combo deck and giving decks like Goblins, Lands, and 300 other decks a zero mana way to stop it. I'm quite aware the deck can win multiple other ways, but why include this at all? Why would you play this over the face-wrecking Ad Nauseam Tendrils?

This started an incredible tangent, so I'll just start here.

You're really looking at this the wrong way, don't think, "I can think of times when you don't want to use Doomsday for Shelldock Emrakul." The Shelldock Isle combo is one of many in the deck, and treating it like Ad Nauseam (where realistically you only have one option: to go for Ad Nauseam, and then potentially the similar Ill-Gotten Gains if low on life) is wrong. You have two ways to win that require different answers from the opposition, giving you many more opportunities to win.

The main benefit of Shelldock is that it beats Counterbalance, Chalice, and 3 sphere/Thorn/Sphere (though it takes some mana). Storm Combo traditionally gets owned by these, but Doomsday Isle is not affected by these forms of hate. Isle has its own weaknesses, but these don't overlap with the weaknesses of Doomsday Tendrils, so Rev614 has two unique ways (actually three) to win the game that require different answers.


At your specific Wasteland comment: Wasteland can't both pop mana lands and be saved for Shelldock Isle, so it's not as big of an issue as you're assuming.

But your real problem is that you're assuming that Shelldock Isle is plan A. "If I just keep a Wasteland untapped, they can't win."

[Bahamuth]

The main benefit of Shelldock is that it beats Counterbalance, Chalice, and 3 sphere/Thorn/Sphere (though it takes some mana). Storm Combo traditionally gets owned by these, but Doomsday Isle is not affected by these forms of hate. Isle has its own weaknesses, but these don't overlap with the weaknesses of Doomsday Tendrils, so Rev614 has two unique ways (actually three) to win the game that require different answers.


And Gaddock Teeg and Cannonist. Notice how literally all (except for some crappy Stax decks no one plays) of these cards are sideboard material. I also hope we agree that the Shelldrazi plan is not too good against anyhting that runs Wasteland and that knows (after game 1 maybe) that you run the combo. I don't see much reason to run the combo main.

I've been running Isle Emrakul in the sideboard of NLS along with 3 Doomsday. I think it's a superior plan to what this deck tries to do. My deck can still run Ad Nauseam, retaining an extremely positive matchup against aggro, as storm combo should. We board the plan in against 3 matchups: Bant aggro, Counterbalance and Reanimator. Against the rest of the field, it's just not what you're looking for. You don't want to add 2 dead cards to your deck that enable a combo easily disrupted by Merfolk. You don't want to rely on Zoo not being fast. I realise Rev614 also has the ability to kill stuff with Tendrills, but it's way worse at doing this than NLS is.

[hi-val]

If I am playing an opponent with Wastelands and they purposely let me have Underground Sea because they want to stop Emrakul, I think I'll probably win that one. Having an undisrupted manabase is killer.

[Lejay]

@Bahamut : Do you play simian spirit guide in your latest NLS build ?
Would be nice to share a decklist. I barely find time to play legacy so I don't test anymore.

[Forbiddian]

And Gaddock Teeg and Cannonist. Notice how literally all (except for some crappy Stax decks no one plays) of these cards are sideboard material.


Ok, well, Counterbalance WAS on the list. In fact it was first.


I also hope we agree that the Shelldrazi plan is not too good against anyhting that runs Wasteland and that knows (after game 1 maybe) that you run the combo. I don't see much reason to run the combo main.


I STRONGLY disagree. Rev614 is quite strong against decks with Wasteland. I pointed it out and hi-val just pointed it out as well. Wasteland is strong against ALL storm combo decks, and your opponent is going to (if he's smart) wasteland your mana-producing lands first anyway. It's just not a good gameplan to sandbag Wastelands, especially if the Rev614 player can guess you have Wastelands. If he knows you have Wastelands, his plan A is going to be Tendrils or Show and Tell.

Also, most archetypes either have wasteland in every deck or they don't have it in any decks. You're not going to run into a Zoo player who wastelands you, nor an Ad Nauseam player. You know when the wasteland stop is winning (that or you're retarded).

To address your general point: The Emrakul combo "costs" two cards in the deck, and then once you commit you also run Show and Tell and make a couple other changes. Compare Ad Nauseam, which doesn't play well with 4x Doomsday and plays extremely poorly with Force of Will.

Although boarding in Emrakul might become standard practice for Ad Nauseam players, I can't see a reason NOT to maindeck it. You get a lot more freedom, including maindeck Force of Will (which gives you a strong matchup against every combo deck). You get three solid games against Counterbalance (instead of hoping to win the back two/they get unlucky).

[Ozymandias]

You can't see a reason not to maindeck ShellEmrakul? In ANT?

15 to the facehole!

[Rico Suave]

Although boarding in Emrakul might become standard practice for Ad Nauseam players, I can't see a reason NOT to maindeck it.

Because Ad Nauseam is better than Doomsday.

[Forbiddian]

You can't see a reason not to maindeck ShellEmrakul? In ANT?

15 to the facehole!

Read the post I was responding to. He says that he runs Ad Nauseam, and then boards out his engine against decks that could have Tendrils hate for Shelldrazi. I'm saying that you should just skip Ad Nauseam (particularly Ad Nauseam diluted with Doomsday cards) in order to maindeck the Shelldrazi plan and have Force of Wills.


Because Ad Nauseam is better than Doomsday.

Ad Nauseam is easier for bad players to get results. If you're playing the deck correctly, Doomsday piles cost only slightly more resources than Ad Nauseam piles, and they're quite a bit harder to stop. They're better against the problem cards: The force of wills, the spell pierces, the dazes, the chalices, and the counterbalances of the world.

Ad Nauseam helps you smoke Zoo a bit harder.

[dahcmai]

Here's an interesting tangent. I was thinking about how badly hitting an Emrakul was off Ad Nauseum and how to avoid that. I play Doomsday in my Ant deck anyway and that one isn't too bad even hitting Doomsday and Meditate at the same time. It sucks, but you can live through it and still win with not too much problem. Hitting the fattie on the other hand is practically for all intents and purposes an insta lose.

Well, some versions (I know, emldin, you hate green splash) play green for Xantid Swarm and/or Carpet of Flowers out of the board. It would be quite easy to play a Living wish in your doomsday stack to pull Emrakul out of the board. It has the double purpose of getting Shelldock if need be if you have the opportunity to just brainstorm Emrakul to the top or some such.

It's not the greatest idea, but it might warrant some testing just because it allows you to play Ad Nauseum and Emrakul at the same time without such a fear of hitting a 15 mana spell. It's a thought.

[Rico Suave]

Ad Nauseam is easier for bad players to get results. If you're playing the deck correctly, Doomsday piles cost only slightly more resources than Ad Nauseam piles, and they're quite a bit harder to stop. They're better against the problem cards: The force of wills, the spell pierces, the dazes, the chalices, and the counterbalances of the world.

Ad Nauseam helps you smoke Zoo a bit harder.

If this were true, then why does Ad Nauseam continue to see widespread success while Doomsday does not? If the Doomsday storm package was actually good people would be running it even without Shelldock-Emrakul. But they aren't running it.

[majikal]

If this were true, then why does Ad Nauseam continue to see widespread success while Doomsday does not? If the Doomsday storm package was actually good people would be running it even without Shelldock-Emrakul. But they aren't running it.
A lot of people still don't even know Doomsday exists. Also, it's harder to play, and a lot of people I know opt for the easier-to-pilot decks when it comes to large tournaments.

[emidln]

If this were true, then why does Ad Nauseam continue to see widespread success while Doomsday does not? If the Doomsday storm package was actually good people would be running it even without Shelldock-Emrakul. But they aren't running it.

The following deck existed in 2004 before Counterbalance, Infernal Tutor, Ad Nauseam, Dark Confidant were printed. People were trying to break Doomsday, but they didn't understand the card. As such, this was never played:

4 Doomsday
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Duress
4 Orim's Chant
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Serum Visions
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

SB: 1 Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
13 slots

This deck is far and away faster, more aggressive, more resilient, and more disruptive (of pure combo decks, FV Stasis Stax was more disruptive than it, but it was never widely played and it was a hybrid prison deck) than any other combo deck that was played at the time. That includes Solidarity, Golden Grahms, Iggy Pop, and Flame Vault. It's faster than Goblins, the zoo lists of that era, and has an excellent Landstill matchup. Further, no Predict Thresh players would want to play against it.

Why didn't this deck dominate GP after GP and World Champs after World Champs? We didn't know about the deck until roughly 2007. We recognized all the cards as combo cards, but nobody built the deck, let alone could navigate the lines of play necessary to pilot it. They were trying shitty things involving Conjurer's Bauble and/or Sutured Ghoul.

Was this the most busted deck in the format? Most likely. Why didn't anyone top8 with it instead of Iggy Pop?

Why doesn't it top8 as often now as ANT? It's still an incredibly difficult deck to play and has gained in power level (along with the rest of the format) thanks to cards like Infernal Tutor, Wipe Away, Krosan Grip, Emrakul, Shelldock Isle, and Ponder.

A deck's popularity doesn't show that it's better than something else. It shows that people play it. An excellent example of this has been New Horizons. Dave Price has continually top8'd everything he goes to with the deck, but it has only recently started to gain popularity and numbers many months after Dave has been winning with it. Even the list that you now play and has become most popular, dubbed "Saito ANT" was virtually unplayed before a name pro Top4'd a GP with it. That granted it exposure and people picked it up, seemingly over another ANT list that finished higher and had a very near-win at the same GP. Is the top4 ANT list better than the top2 ANT list? I don't think it is, but I have no proof (and neither does anyone else) one way or another. All I can tell you is that it is more popular.

Am I saying ANT is worse than Doomsday? No. I believe they are very different decks and they have strengths that I would attempt to exploit in different metagames. Doomsday is especially well-suited for Reanimator/Counterbalance metagames with those among its favorable matchups. Its other favorable matchups include Zoo and Goblins and it's unfavorable to even with Merfolk. B/x Suicide is difficult for Doomsday and is unfavorable. ANT has favorable matchups vs Zoo, Goblins, and B/x Suicide, is unfavorable to even with Reanimator and Merfolk, and is very unfavorable to even (depending on the exact build of CB) vs Counterbalance.

ANT is slightly more positive vs Zoo and Goblins at the expense of being much worse vs Reanimator and Counterbalance decks. With a good pilot and mostly discard for protection (ala Saito ANT or NLS), they have very similar Merfolk matchups. Both decks count a large part of the format as byes and both decks require an extremely compressed decision tree or risk losing even favorable matchups.

As an aside, knowing that DDFT existed in 2004, I wonder if we're missing a similar metagame breaking deck right now.

[Bahamuth]

Ok, well, Counterbalance WAS on the list. In fact it was first.
Ok I'm sorry. Cb is the exception.


I STRONGLY disagree. Rev614 is quite strong against decks with Wasteland.

I never claimed otherwise.


I pointed it out and hi-val just pointed it out as well. Wasteland is strong against ALL storm combo decks, and your opponent is going to (if he's smart) wasteland your mana-producing lands first anyway. It's just not a good gameplan to sandbag Wastelands, especially if the Rev614 player can guess you have Wastelands.

This doesn't make Shelldrazi a good strategy against them. It might work, it might not. Wasteland is not the only problem. Most decks that run Wasteland also have a fast clock, giving you another reason to not want Shelldrazi.


If he knows you have Wastelands, his plan A is going to be Tendrils or Show and Tell.

Which is a decent argument for cutting Shelldrazi from the main. It's unlikely you can change your game plan at the point your opponent gets a Wasteland online. Shelldrazi also commits you to be as quick as you can, meaning you sometimes don't have any idea wether the opponent has a Wasteland or not (this is actually quite common). An opponent, especially if he knows you're running Shelldrazi, is likely to hold his Waste until he needs it.


Also, most archetypes either have wasteland in every deck or they don't have it in any decks. You're not going to run into a Zoo player who wastelands you, nor an Ad Nauseam player. You know when the wasteland stop is winning (that or you're retarded).

Agreed (altough Zoo occasionally runs some Waste to get with Knight). How's this an argument though?


To address your general point: The Emrakul combo "costs" two cards in the deck, and then once you commit you also run Show and Tell and make a couple other changes. Compare Ad Nauseam, which doesn't play well with 4x Doomsday and plays extremely poorly with Force of Will.

I'm not even convinced running FoW is better in a deck like this. Your comparison is unfair, because Ad Nauseam is a much less situational way to win than Shelldrazi is.


Although boarding in Emrakul might become standard practice for Ad Nauseam players, I can't see a reason NOT to maindeck it.

You lose Ad Nauseam. That's a pretty big reason.

[Rico Suave]

A deck's popularity doesn't show that it's better than something else.

So why do you think nobody wants to play Doomsday?

I mean, you use New Horizons as an example, but people are picking that up. Nobody is picking up Doomsday.

[Aggro_zombies]

Agreed (altough Zoo occasionally runs some Waste to get with Knight). How's this an argument though?
Most decks running Wasteland also have some other distinctive feature that makes them easy to identify, even in the first turn or two. For example, if your opponent goes Island, Vial, go, it's reasonable to assume that (a) he's Merfolk, and therefore that (b) he has Wasteland.

Unless you're on the play in game one and open with Dark Ritual into Doomsday, setting up Emrakul, you should have a decent idea of whether or not your opponent has Wastelands from his first turn or two. Even if you're trying to set up Emrakul as fast as possible, you should be able to glean enough information from his opening play or plays to decide whether it's a good idea.

I mean, granted, your opponent could just play a Tropical Island and pass, at which point he could be on any number of things, including two different tempo decks (New Horizons and Canadian, both of which have Wasteland). In that case, it's probably not tremendously bright to do anything quickly until you figure out exactly what deck your opponent is playing and therefore how much resistance he can put up (New Horizons has more counters than NO Counterbalance, for example, and is therefore better at fighting you in the opening turns).

[Aleksandr]

Legacy storm combo deck after Mystical Tutor.

1) The deck
2) The report

Without further ado - I joined StormBoards not long ago and after some lurking (and bannings that killed ANT) I found a deck or two that I really like. For some reason (me and my stupidity – I sold Burning Wishes some months ago... not that it is that scarce of a card, but I ain’t gonna buy it just few days after I sold it) I am unable to build TES. So this led me to Doomsday.deck.
I don’t love to lose to blue and/or postboard hate, and as there is a deck that laughs at both, I tried my take on...

Rev614

Well, to be honest – as I abandoned both the SnT plan and the LED+FoW „synergy“, this is not Rev614 anymore, which in fact is a gigantic plus for me, because:
- I spared money needed for SnT
- no LED+FoW nonsense
- as a christian I never really liked the biblical references used in this profane manner

Lets call this deck... what about DDT? Yes, very clever!

Decklist is as follows and I build the deck 30 minutes before tournament nad never really played it IRL or on MWS. (In fact it’s nigh copypaste of this list: http://teamstormboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=stormcombo&action=post&thread=158&quote=2934&page=6

I see some flex slots and I also lack a number of cards, so I built it like this:
DDT.dec
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Echoing Truth

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Pithing Needle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island


Yeah, no CoF, which is a huge mistake, as I see now. Also Echoing Truth should be Wipe Away, because ET at Wasteland = nono. But I feared the Chalice decks more, where ET is much more useful, namely when I heve the Needle main to stop the Wasteland.

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pernicious Deed (yeah!)
2 Krosan Grip (someone said „XY_Stopmy“?)
2 Echoing Truth
4 Dark Confidant
1 Cabal Therapy (:confused:)

I lost my notes from yesterday, so this is just from the memory. At least I hope that I remeber my opponents‘ name.

R1, Tom?, Merfolk

g1: He kept horrible hand with many creatures, but only one FoW, which I Duressed away and than storm-Tendriled him for 22 via IGG.
g2: I heard that Deed is quite strong. I finally stabilized after I chumpblocked by Confi with double Needle in hand. I played Deed and passed. He attacked, I Deed the Board, next turn Needling the Factory, Needling the Waste. This was close - he beat me down to two life.

Doomsday.
Make the pile.
Have one life.
Pass.

He drew crap. Me not...

Shelldock Isle, pass.
opponent gets nothing.

Me: Emrakul.
Him: Force of Will.
Me: Well, not really.
Him: Well.. not really, really.
Me: Pass
Me: Swing for fifteen, eat your board.
him: gg, I concede

Bystanders fell unconscious.

Awesomeness factor: 9/10


R2, Lukas, GWB aggrocontrol

g1) He Duressed my IT, 2/2 Duresshatebear RFGed Meditate, so I killed him with LED , Rit, IGG from top. Yeah, discard is so strong...
g2) I sided out discard and some additional crap and took Deed + Confidants and Needles.
We played some turns of Magical Cards (TM) and than I played LED plus DD, going to ten.

Him: Gaddock Teeg.
Me: Untap, upkeep, draw. Needle @ Waste
Him: Duress guy (Deed), swing for two with Teeg
Me: Isle, go (three cards in library)
Him: Swing for four. (4 life remaining)
Me: Emrakul, go
Me: Swing for fifteen, ToA, gg, thx

Awesomeness factor 10/10


R3, Tomas, TES

g1) We played some cantrips, than I Duressed him of Wish, but he had Brainstorm + double Rite of Flame and with some luck he was able to go off in a few turns. So on my next turn I tried to combo out, but miscounted, which happens to me pretty often.
But it still isn’t game over, unless I chose to be tard.

Rit, LED, IT - > IGG: Rit+LED+IT -> DD@Emrak (which leaves me hellbented, but I also miniMindtwisted opponent and set up my kill). Sounds reasonable? Yeah!

But I rather chose to be that tard, so I played Rit, Meditate, sac LED, draw crap, pass. Few turns later he finished me.

g2) For some reason I din not take the Confidants in, but only another one ET and that one-of Therapy. Deed could be helpful too, if he choses (or is forced to) to go the EtW route, but I cannot dilute the deck too much.
Long story short – I waited a turn or two too long and he ToAed me for 28. GG

If there would not be that horrible brainfart on my side in G1, I could pretty well won that, but no matter what, it is just „if“.


R4, Pavel, NOThresh

g1) Did you know that there are 5/6 creatures for 1G? Well, now you know.
g2) After some sculpting I Duressed him of Fow, than setup a bit for the big turn.
Next turn:

Lotus Petal (resolves)
Dark Ritual (resolves)
Spin Top... I screwed it. Wrong card on the top.

Pass, got the kill ready for the next turn, but it would be far less easy without Rit.

He double Pondered.

Turn later it was... well, a turn later. I could pretty well set the DD->Mrak kill, but the second Ponder gave him that FoW so it went like this:

Rit, LED, IT, crack LED, IT resolves, DD (forced)

So, 2-2. not bad.

I went to the pub with friends and I tested with Pavel. I think I got some 50:50 against NOCB, but it is really decied by coin flip - the one who strts is pretty favored. E.g. Rit, Rit/LP, Duress, DD means gg on the play, because he cannot Daze and without FoW, I can kill him via Mrak. But same play is not that brutal on the draw, where Daze (and postboard Spell Pierce) spoils my math, not to mention that every Goyf in existance is delirious with delight when the first sorcery to hit the grave (that he awaited for for so long) is exactly Doomsday...


So I won two, lost two (but these were due to me not being able to count to six, resp. give three cards back on the top in right order), not because this pile is bad.

I really love the deck.


Discuss.

[chokin]

If you cast Doomsday turn one vs zoo it's because you're playing for this pile:

Brainstorm
LED
LED
SDT/Ponder
IGG
Tendrils

You have one of these in hand, another card, and 1U next turn. They lose when you untap and they don't get a turn 3.

Is that a 6 card Doomsday pile? Or am I missing something.

[cjva]

you miss this under the pile "You have one of these in hand,"

[emidln]

For what it's worth, this pile is even more savage than we originally realized:

[Top]
Brainstorm
LED
LED
SDT/Ponder/IT
IGG
Tendrils/Burning Wish
[Bottom]

You need one of these cards, plus one other card, plus the mana listed for the lifeloss noted. If you have more than the 2 cards in hand, and that extra card is a BS, LED, or SDT/Ponder/IT, you can shave a mana off the cost by including Lotus Petal in your pile in place of the second card that you have

1U - 22 - SDT/Wish
1U - 20 - SDT/Tendrils

UU - 20 - Ponder/Wish
UU - 18 - Ponder/Tendrils

1UB - 20 - IT/Wish
1UB - 18 - IT/Tendrils

BTW that list is awful. This deck needs 4 SDT. There are no excuses for not playing the 4th, your deck is strictly worse than it is with 4.

[B.C.]

Me: Emrakul.
Him: Force of Will.

The correct response to this is: "Resolves." [stare silently at him until he feels uncomfortable]

Your list isn't too far off from my current list, although emidln is right that you definitely should have 4x Tops instead of 4x Ponder. I also have not been running Pithing Needle, although it seemed to treat you right in this tournament. From your report it sounds like you lost your 2 matches to inexperience.

Couple questions:

1) do you think it is worth it to have green in the deck? You have P-Deed, which doesn't necessarily seem right to me, and you have Krosan Grip, which is largely unneccessary now that we have Emrakul Island. I am going with a purely UB build, with SnT and big men in the board for Merfolk/Horizons.

2) It looks to me like you are playing Dark Confidant and NOT siding out Emrakul. That can't be right. I'll assume that was a misprint.

[Aleksandr]

The correct response to this is: "Resolves." [stare silently at him until he feels uncomfortable]

Yeah! :laugh:


Your list isn't too far off from my current list, although emidln is right that you definitely should have 4x Tops instead of 4x Ponder.

I don't own the fourth copy and I still cannot decide to acquire it, because I think DCI will ban it pretty soon. Also, I like it how Ponder shuffles library (which is important namely in the early stage of game, because this deck is mana hungry and you really want your second land). Not to mention that multiple SDTs suck most of the time.
Otoh, I'd like to have 4/4/4 BS/Ponder/SDT split, because without any other library search and/or manipulation, this deck has sometimes serious trouble to find the needed stuff in time. What should I take out? Maybe the CoF/AoV is not powerful, namely when I go for the DDgo -> Emr pile.


I also have not been running Pithing Needle, although it seemed to treat you right in this tournament.

There are few Folks, some GWx Wasteland.dec, New Horizons and one Tempo Thresh deck (that spoils every metagame possible), where Pithing Needle is a card of great importance. DD -> Emr is awesome in this matches, because once you resolve DD, you can kill them no matter how powerfully they hit you with discard or how many Fows, Dazes, Pierces, Stifles they hold... unless of course they waste your Isle.



From your report it sounds like you lost your 2 matches to inexperience.

Yeah! :laugh:

It still happens to me even on MWS against goldfish decks. E.g. I played against Zoo and went for the 2nd or 3rd turn DDwin pile, but even though I thought about it for a minute (because I needed to create very specific and hard-to-acquire chain of setup spells - e.g. I had Med in hand that I seriously needed in library second from the top), I screwed it once I went for it, because I forget to sac LED for UUUBBB, not BBBBBB... so I just was unable to Meditate without blue mana. (Well, in fact the oponent let me take it back, but in the tournament it would be different).

You may find those two mistakes in the report, but I think that I made another mistakes, but maybe not that visible, during R4,g1, which I could have won with a little bit more of an effort and if played a bit more agrressivelly.


Couple questions:

1) do you think it is worth it to have green in the deck? You have P-Deed, which doesn't necessarily seem right to me, and you have Krosan Grip, which is largely unneccessary now that we have Emrakul Island. I am going with a purely UB build, with SnT and big men in the board for Merfolk/Horizons.

2) It looks to me like you are playing Dark Confidant and NOT siding out Emrakul. That can't be right. I'll assume that was a misprint.

1) Yes and no. Deed not only destroys Folks, it also helps me to gain some time against various Zoo-like decks, which I don't want to kill with Emrakul, as they have fast clock and burn to finish me after DD. It helps against their sideboard, because most of the time it just consists of some 2/2, so Deed serves double purpose in slowing down their clock and removing their hatebear.
Nice addition is that it kills Counterbalance (and a Mox/Seat of Synod that could be present) and it eats alive Tress, Stompy and Stax, which we can pretty easily defeat, once we Deed away their stuff that hinders us from winning. (I don't find the stuff like 3sphere, Chalice, Lodestone Golem, Moon helpful to our plan :smile:)
Also - I don't have SnT and big dudes and as I am in a bit serious financial trouble right now, I'd rather spend money on something else than cardboard.

2) No.
I keep Emr alongside the DCs on the purpose. Look, there are decks that play Confidant and triple Stalker with no other setup than SDT. I got one of Emrakul and 11 cantrips, so I dont fear that I flip him. And I need DD->Emr namely in those matches, where I need Confidants - against heavy discard and of course against blue deck. Those decks often times have no real clock (and Pernicious Deed really helps to stabilize), so once I exhaust them and overthrow with CA, I can kill them effortlessly no matter how many Ritual they Extirpated, how much life they gained with Jitted Kitchen Finks and what number of permanent hate they pit against me.

E.g. this how I side against Folks:

-1 IGG
-3 IT
-4 LED
-2 Crit
-1 Petal

+3 Deed
+4 Confidant
+3 Needle
+1 Therapy

This way I initialy set up by digging for mana and discard, than I start to gain CA by Deed and Confidant, once I get ahead of the oponent, I cast protected DD for protected Emrakul.