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Sciros
06-01-2010, 10:04 PM
Hey guys,

I've been playing around with a deck that I want to make as "competitive" as possible without losing sight of the deck's original theme. I would like to know if anyone has some suggestions for it. Anyway here it is...

It's based around Pattern of Rebirth and Defense of the Heart (Eldrazi...) and, as with all of my deck ideas initially, it's a bit of a mess.

No sideboard ideas yet at all, though I'll have to think about them soon.

Here's the current incarnation (went through about 25 different ones over the weekend playtesting). I'll explain the cards one at a time following the list.


4 Tinder Wall
4 Wall of Mulch
4 Wall of Roots
3 Wall of Blossoms
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

4 Pongify
3 Mercy Killing
4 Manamorphose

4 Defense of the Heart
4 Pattern of Rebirth
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
6 Forest
1 Island


Ok so keep in mind that this deck is a work in progress and may change entirely at a whim. I'm playing around with a lot of the slots so this probably isn't even the "best" version of the deck that I've tested so far.

Before I get to explaining why I'm using these cards, I want to mention that I've ruled out certain directions to take the deck in simply because I don't have the cards to do it or don't want to take other decks of mine apart (I don't like proxies). So... splashing in Black is out of the question since all my Bayous and Verdant Catacombs and what-not are currently in my Doran/Bridge deck. (Though discussing Black spash is something I'm open to, just to keep ideas in mind for later.) As are my Noble Hierarchs and Birds of Paradise, so I don't know about splashing in a third color like White. (Would maybe be ok for those 3/3 Rhinos that sacrifice themselves or something, or Enlightened Tutor.) It might still work. Plus mana dudes don't fit in well with the rest of the deck. Also I don't have Force of Will or Natural Order and they're a bit too expensive IMO. Oh also Natural Order wouldn't work for Eldrazi and the NO/Progenitus combo is just not my thing because so many people do it. Anyway...

Defense of the Heart, Pattern of Rebirth -- THE win conditions of the deck. There is no Plan B right now. I try to resolve one or the other, whichever ends up being easier or whichever one I draw.

Tinder Wall, Wall of Mulch -- they self-sacrifice to Pattern of Rebirth, which is handy. Tinder Wall can add a bit of acceleration at times, though rarely. Both are also good blockers in that they don't damage opposing creatures, keeping them healthy for Defense of the Heart to activate.

Manamorphose -- it's there to effectively reduce my deck to 56 cards, increasing chances of drawing my win conditions. But since I splashed Blue in, I am going to test alternatives (see considerations below).

Pongify, Mercy Killing -- these get rid of big threats (5/6 Goyfs) and pests like Gaddock Teeg while keeping my opponent's board populated for Defense of the Heart. Pongify is especially cool because 0/4 walls are good at blocking 3/3s and it's a quick kill. Arguably a better fit in this deck than even Swords or Path would be. Maybe. Important to note that they also can kill my own creatures and satisfy Pattern of Rebirth. (Which is why Pongify is strictly better than Lignify in this deck, for instance.)

Engineered Explosives -- an obvious fit into this deck. Clears the board of all the silly tokens I make if it comes to that. Also kills my own guys so it can help with the "go to graveyard" condition of Pattern of Rebirth. Only running 2 colors can be a bit of a limitation, though. Forbidden Orchard and Tinder Wall can sometimes add a third color but that's not something to count on.

Wall of Roots -- a decent blocker that gives me a tiny bit of mana acceleration and can kill itself if it comes to that (though it's highly unlikely). I was trying out this vs. Vine Trellis.

You may be wondering why I'm running so many walls... well, I used to have Overgrown Battlement in here. I might throw it back in after further playtesting, or get away from using so many walls. They are nice because of Wall of Mulch, though. And they don't kill opposing creatures which is nice too. But it is a direction that may not make as much sense as others, so I'm open to suggestions.

Wall of Blossoms -- it's in here instead of Overgrown Battlement. Drawing cards is always fun; it's a good card overall. But there might be a better fit that I haven't quite figured out yet.

Forbidden Orchard -- a rubbish card that works well with Defense of the Heart. If I don't draw Defense, it can really come back to bite me but that's the way it is. At least it fixes mana.

Considerations:
Brainstorm +4 -- in place of Manamorphose. Only problem is it requires blue but that may not be a big deal. It's the first change I'm going to look at (I liked Manamorphose in decks running Tarmogoyf because it can be a free +1/+1 for the guy, but I couldn't find room for Goyfs in this deck.)

Elvish Piper +1 -- in case I'm interested in playing out the big guys that I happen to actually draw.

Progenitus +1 -- in place of one of the Emrakuls. Mostly in case I draw Ulamog and want to resolve Defense of the Heart. Possibly too situational to make much of a difference in the long run. If I draw Emrakul and I don't have another one to throw on the board that also sucks.

Total overhaul -- may be necessary.

I tried a Black splash just for grins to see how well Black creature removal and things like Pernicious Deed and Maelstrom Pulse helped -- they were good. But at the moment like I said, my G/B lands are being used elsewhere.

Playtesting without sideboards, it seems like it either gets wtfpwned or it just barely wins. Against OK decks like Zoo and Bant variants and such. Post-sideboard I expect it to do significantly worse because it's so fragile. So it might need a total rethink. However I am pretty interested in seeing whether such a deck can be at least somewhat competitive because I like taking jank rares and getting as much out of them as possible.

Vacrix
06-02-2010, 04:06 AM
I'm not sure this can be competitive. Its basically a combo deck, that accelerates into a 4cc enchantment that doesn't win you the game immediately. The creature you enchant is vulnerable to removal, the enchantment itself is vulnerable to removal, and the enchantment is vulenrable to countermagic. Its too slow for legacy and too easy to disrupt.

There are much better options over casting Emrakul.

The developmental forum is for potentially competitive decks. If you are trying to get the best out of your jank rares, you ought to throw them into an EDH deck or ask a mod to have this moved to the casual forum.

Sciros
06-02-2010, 12:21 PM
Varcrix, with respect, I am not interested in EDH and the Casual forum's subtext literally asks "not interested in making a deck much better?" I am interested in making the deck better, and dismissing it outright as not feasible probably means the "overhaul" option I mentioned could be discussed. Now, if it is indeed the case that I can get better suggestions in that section of the forum than this one, then I will ask a moderator to move the thread.

Maybe Defense of the Heart should be ditched outright, or Pattern of Rebirth, and more room made for control or a plan B or something of that sort. I'm not looking for a decklist from people (that is way too much work to ask of anyone IMO), but just ideas of directions that I can take and maybe a card or two that could be a good fit for that direction.

I am well aware of the deck's limitations at the moment -- I've tested against Zoo, Bant Aggro, Bant Tempo, Reanimator, Aggro Loam, a couple of combo decks, Goblins, Merfolk, discard, and some decks I can't remember off the top of my head. Right now it just rolls over to some but does semi-decent against others. It's not the speed per se that concerns me most; if combo and burn are my only bad matchups then I can live with that. My biggest issues are other weaknesses in the deck that keep it from really crushing any deck. At best it does "okay". Hence the thread.

Thinking out loud (so to speak), you're 100% right about creature removal being an issue if I use Pattern of Rebirth -- they can hold on to a Swords or Path and that'll be a 2-for-1 right there. So maybe the key there is using creatures with semi-shroud (can't be targets of spells or effects opponents control). That, however, is a big change -- it almost certainly means I have to take the deck away from using Defense of the Heart and in a more of "shroud-aura-aggro" direction. At that point, Emrakul is, if anything, is probably a secondary win condition and that is if I manage to knock off my own dude. And because no semi-shroud guys have self-sacrificing abilities as far as I know, that now is a 3-card combo of creature-Pattern-removal. Nice thing about removal in general is that it works both ways so it's not like I'm "dedicating" removal cards to a combo -- in fact they can clear the board for my shrouded enchanted dudes to plow through.

So now I'm talking about taking a semi-shroud-aura deck core and trying to half-arse an Emrakul cheat in there. At least in this case Emrakul makes more sense than Progenitus in the sense that the only real advantage a "big guy" can have over a heavily enchanted shroud guy is probably Annihilator.

I might give that a go and see what it looks like.

If I were to concentrate more on incorporating Defense of the Heart as a win condition, it would probably have to be as a sideboard card against aggro decks that are soft on permanent removal (goblin, merfolk). I'll think about that one.

And you are also right about there being better ways to cheat Emrakul into play. Piper, Portal, Gateway, Fact or Fiction, Hypergenesis, Polymorph, Staff, even Dramatic Entrance (there's a handful of others). And that's not counting the ones that give him haste and have him shuffle his arse back into the deck at the end step. I'm working on a couple of those other strategies at the moment as well, but if I develop them enough to care I'll make a separate thread about them (unless this thread does live on and take enough of a turn).

EDIT: Having looked through the "Casual" forum more and seen the deck discussions, I am inclined to agree with you that this deck belongs there at the moment. And people do try to improve the decks there, heh. So... mods, do your thang.

Blackmagic
06-03-2010, 12:49 PM
I've also been messing around with defense of the heart and patern of rebirth for a while, and in my build I play ghostly prison and faiths fetters, they work great against orchard tokens and keeping opposing creatures in play, I've even played pacifism. I also play tribe elders and eternal witness. My sideboard includes boseiju+replenish. I've been thinking of playing loxodon hierarch as a beatstick that sacks.
Crop rotation I think is also important.
cards worth considering:
qasali pridemage, enlightened tutor, academy rector and children of korlis (this works great with eternal witness).
I've always thought that this strategy should atleast outright win against aggro decks so my sideboard is mostly against weak matchups such as control and combo, which are really bad matchups.
Don't know if this deck can become super competitve but its alot of fun.

Combo Winter
06-03-2010, 04:04 PM
Baically you need to play a deticated pattern deck for this to be any good also i would suggest playing iona. Defense is just to hard to activate because you wanna play guys for pattern. basically not a very good card in a format when you can play pattern and natural order which are far less prohibative to activate.

creature [27]
4 Academy Rector
1 Emaralku
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Eternal Witness
3 vampire 2 drop sac guy
3 Phyrexian Ghoul
1 Iona
1 Protean hulk
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wall of Roots
instant [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [3]
4 Cabal Therapy
enchantment [8]
1 Form of the Dragon
4 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Worship
land [20]
4 verdant catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath