Vampire Control

[Tru3z3rox]

Hey guys. I was looking through the developing decks and didn't see a forum for Vampires. I love tribal and I'd love to get one started. I don't really have time to make a primer so I'll just post my list and start a discussion.

List:

Land:
10 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths

Creatures (2cc):
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Bloodghast

Creatures (3cc):
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Captivating Vampire

Creatures (4cc):
4 Vampire Nocturnus

Instants:
4 Smother
2 Snuff Out

Artifacts:
4 Aether Vial

Sorceries:
4 Cabal Therapy




Match ups:

Against combo:
The matchup isn't bad especially after boarding. If belcher can go off before you can duress/thoughtseize then there is a problem. I usually board in mindbreaks, duresses, and sometimes eplague to kill off the tokens. Against ant the best thing to do is just destroy their hand as soon as possible and hold mind breaks if you can (they will feel pressure to go off early before getting control).

Against aggro:
This is also a good matchup with the snuff outs, smothers, eplagues, gatekeepers, and discard suit. Should not be much of a problem especially if dark depths goes off. I consistently beat zoo, but lose to aggro loam (unless I can keep devastating dreams out of their hand).

Against control:
This is by far the worst matchup, however, aether vial has helped this tremendously. I get beaten pretty hard by merfolk and MUC as well as landstill. The best strategy is to duress their hand as much as possible then drop your threats. Also an uncountered aether vial turn 1 is ideal.

What do you guys think and about the new lord?
:1:BB
Other Vampires get +1/+1
Tap 5 Untapped Vampires you control:
Gain control of target creature and it becomes a vampire

[Ozymandias]

I still think that you want more urborgs. At least one. The chances of you drawing both in the first 6 turns is less than 4 percent, and even for 3 urborgs, the chance of you drawing more than one is only 10 percent in the first 6 turns. Now, I understand you're a bit wary of wastes, but Vial will help with that, as will 17 sources of basics.

I would cut a gatekeeper for a nocturnus, and smother is possibly better as Snuff Out.

[Tru3z3rox]

I still think that you want more urborgs. At least one. The chances of you drawing both in the first 6 turns is less than 4 percent, and even for 3 urborgs, the chance of you drawing more than one is only 10 percent in the first 6 turns. Now, I understand you're a bit wary of wastes, but Vial will help with that, as will 17 sources of basics.

I would cut a gatekeeper for a nocturnus, and smother is possibly better as Snuff Out.

I don't feel that urborg is necessary in this deck with so many fetches and basics. I usually don't need dark depths to tap for mana either.

@Gatekeeper
Gatekeeper is a great card and I cannot see myself running less than 4.

@Nocturnus
Nocturnus is a bit pricey and is my late game bomb. That is why I want the new lord (simply for the lord pump).

@Snuff Out
I don't agree. Yes granted I don't need to actually pay for it, but smother is just so much better against the format. There are many times you'll need to hit a black creature with it and the 4 life can stack up with smallpox, fetches, thoughtseize, and being hit by your opponent's creatures.

[makochman]

The new lord (Captivating Vampire) is terrible because it does not provide evasion. The +1/+1 is irrelevant against most aggro decks.

You really need 1-2 more Urborg to make better use of DD. Otherwise an early DD is like a Time Walk for the opponent. Also you don't have any 1 cmc creatures, so Aether Vial is another Time Walk (or two) for the opponent. Why no Dark Ritual? Also, why Smallpox when you have neither Sinkhole nor Wasteland to back up the land destruction? You'd be better off with Diabolic Edict.

Frankly I think it would be better to either drop DD altogether and use Umezawa's Jitte, which is very powerful with Bloodghast and Nighthawk, or splash green for Living Wish.

[Tru3z3rox]

The new lord (Captivating Vampire) is terrible because it does not provide evasion. The +1/+1 is irrelevant against most aggro decks.

You really need 1-2 more Urborg to make better use of DD. Otherwise an early DD is like a Time Walk for the opponent. Also you don't have any 1 cmc creatures, so Aether Vial is another Time Walk (or two) for the opponent. Why no Dark Ritual? Also, why Smallpox when you have neither Sinkhole nor Wasteland to back up the land destruction? You'd be better off with Diabolic Edict.

Frankly I think it would be better to either drop DD altogether and use Umezawa's Jitte, which is very powerful with Bloodghast and Nighthawk, or splash green for Living Wish.

Conceded, but there are no other lords to choose from and vampires need lords. It may never be used, but at least having it in the mid-late game could prove comforting when there is stalemate.

As for the urborg I want to keep as little lands as possible that could get wasted. I will decrease the number of dark depths to 3 when the new lord comes out.

As for dark ritual I think that ritual and aether vial don't need to be run together. That will be 8 dead cards mid-late game.

Smallpox still works wonders especially if I go first turn vial and discard bloodghast. That is the ideal play. Smallpox affects every zone and hurts them way more than it hurts me. The one regret is that I cannot run 4 when the new lord comes out.

No need for living wish as the dd combo is just an OOPS I WIN.

Jitte is a good idea, but I don't have room in the deck for it.

As for 1 drops...which would you recommend? To me all of the 1 drop vampires are pretty terrible compared to the rest of the deck.

[Vacrix]

You know what would be awesome? Crystal Shard. You can bounce your own dudes either to save them or for CIP effects. Recycling Gatekeeper's CIP seems pretty legit to me. You'd need a light blue splash for it to be effective but I think its worth a try.

[Tru3z3rox]

You know what would be awesome? Crystal Shard. You can bounce your own dudes either to save them or for CIP effects. Recycling Gatekeeper's CIP seems pretty legit to me. You'd need a light blue splash for it to be effective but I think its worth a try.

Interesting idea, but splashing a color just to recur the CIP of gatekeeper is not a good idea. I'd love to explore that idea more though. Can we somehow recycle the abilities in mono B? What other abilities could we recycle?

The closest thing I know of is Wizards and Riptide Laboratory.

[Greenpoe]

Have you considered replacing Vial with Jitte? You don't have any 1 drop creatures, and you'd probably want to pay the kicker on the Gatekeeper, and if you increase it past 2, there's not too many creatures to use it with anymore.

[EssKay]

Why would you run Shard when you could use Erratic Portal. So sad how staple cards can be forgotten so easily.

[Tru3z3rox]

Why would you run Shard when you could use Erratic Portal. So sad how staple cards can be forgotten so easily.

@Jitte
Yes Jitte is a great card, but I feel like it is unnecessary. My merfolk don't run it either and do just fine.

@More 1 drops
I'd love to put in some great 1 drops, but which ones would you recommend? In my eyes they are all terrible.

@Portal
Both are too expensive. I'd love to find a way to recycle it though like faeries recycle spellstutter sprite.

[Tru3z3rox]

Have you considered replacing Vial with Jitte? You don't have any 1 drop creatures, and you'd probably want to pay the kicker on the Gatekeeper, and if you increase it past 2, there's not too many creatures to use it with anymore.

And also if aether vial came out dark ritual would go back in, so I would not replace it in the way you say.

[makochman]

@More 1 drops
I'd love to put in some great 1 drops, but which ones would you recommend? In my eyes they are all terrible.

Precisely! Black does not have any good 1 cmc creatures whatsoever. This is why we're advising you to replace Aether Vial with Dark Ritual. Also you can't kick Gatekeeper of Malakir when using Aether Vial.


Conceded, but there are no other lords to choose from and vampires need lords. It may never be used, but at least having it in the mid-late game could prove comforting when there is stalemate.

Vampires need Jitte more than they need +1/+1. A Bloodghast or Nighthawk equipped with a Jitte smashes face much more than with Captivating Vampire and gives you a good measure of board control. In fact Captivating Vampire is so mediocre that WotC saw it fit to put it in an M11 starter deck.

[Tru3z3rox]

Precisely! Black does not have any good 1 cmc creatures whatsoever. This is why we're advising you to replace Aether Vial with Dark Ritual. Also you can't kick Gatekeeper of Malakir when using Aether Vial.



Vampires need Jitte more than they need +1/+1. A Bloodghast or Nighthawk equipped with a Jitte smashes face much more than with Captivating Vampire and gives you a good measure of board control. In fact Captivating Vampire is so mediocre that WotC saw it fit to put it in an M11 starter deck.

I've been playing it with aether vial over dark rit and I absolutely love it. Granted it doesn't curve well at the 1 drop, but merfolk only have 1 drop also. That doesn't stop them from running vial.

Jitte just has 0 synergy with nocturnus too. I'd love to run it, especially if it was a black artifact, but it is not the case. It is a good card, but the lack of synergy and the fact that I want to be destroying their hand in the mean time just doesn't allow for it. Perhaps I'm totally off.

[(nameless one)]

I tried doing a "tribal control" with both Zombies and Vampires. They both run the same disruption/discard suite. Each tribe was run with the best available creature their respective tribes can provide.

With both tribes, I had a general concensus. Discard sucks when your opponent is on topdeck mode. Then, I came across TheInfamousBearAssassin's Magic Murder Bag thread. I borrowed his idea of using Scroll Rack + Thawing Glaciers as its late game draw engine. Scroll Rack lets you return back unnecessary discard/extra lands in hand. Thawing Glaciers lets you shuffle your library, making sure that you will not 're-see' your unnecessary cards. It also synergizes with Bloodghast as Thawing Glaciers will provide constant landfall and Vampire Nocturnus will always be on 'nighttime mode'.

You might say that this is slower than Dark Confidant + Sensei's Divining Top or Phyrexian Arena draw but Thawing Rack draw engine makes your hand more 'consistent' and relevant to late game. What is the use of a hand filled with discard effects when your opponent is on topdeck mode, especially late game.

Basically, what happens with the deck now is early game, all you will do is make your opponent discard and try to control the board by removing creatures. Then late game, you can start dropping your Vampires. This has an interaction in a sense that there are really no early drop vampires. Late game when your opponent has been stripped out of his/her hand and on topdeck mode, then you can start dropping your vampires. Vampires dont really need back-up spells as they themselves are good enough as stand alone (thank you creature power-creep).

I know this will face a lot of criticism but I am asking you guys try it before you trash-talk it.

[EssKay]

If you really want a decent CMC 1 guy for Vial, you might consider Guul Draz Assassin, but really I think you're better off running Ritual instead of Vial. Goblins needs it because half their manabase is disruption, and Merfolk can use it to abuse standstill, and this deck isn't really doing either, so what advantage does it really give? You almost always want your first plays to be discard anyway, you can worry about threats once they're in top-deck mode.

You really need to find space for some kind of draw engine too, but I don't really think the deck has space for the Rack/Glaciers thing. Bob by himself would probably be sufficient and provides an extra beater, a couple Tops might help with Nocturnus.

[Tru3z3rox]

If you really want a decent CMC 1 guy for Vial, you might consider Guul Draz Assassin, but really I think you're better off running Ritual instead of Vial. Goblins needs it because half their manabase is disruption, and Merfolk can use it to abuse standstill, and this deck isn't really doing either, so what advantage does it really give? You almost always want your first plays to be discard anyway, you can worry about threats once they're in top-deck mode.

You really need to find space for some kind of draw engine too, but I don't really think the deck has space for the Rack/Glaciers thing. Bob by himself would probably be sufficient and provides an extra beater, a couple Tops might help with Nocturnus.

I think you're right about Guul Draz, but he can be underwhelming. Also most decks are taking out standstill these days and so that point becomes moot as it is almost the same.

Also goblins don't need vial as much because of lackey and instigator. I need a lot more because I generally get mana screwed.

Dark ritual is a one time use and I find that especially when mana screwed and against control it helps A LOT. I can also play all of my disruption for 2 or less so it lets me do that without losing tempo.

What draw engine? I don't want to do top/confidant.

[Greenpoe]

Vampire Lacerator is probably your best bet for a 1-drop, followed by Pulse Tracker. Arrogant Bloodlord is decent.

[Tru3z3rox]

Vampire Lacerator is probably your best bet for a 1-drop, followed by Pulse Tracker. Arrogant Bloodlord is decent.

I disagree. Guul Draz Vampire is way better, but even so is underwhelming.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I've found Volrath's Stronghold to be pretty good, usually a 1-of. In mid-late game being able to put a Gatekeeper on top and keep smashing the opponent is great.

Get rid of Depths IMO. Maybe board it in?

[Tru3z3rox]

I've found Volrath's Stronghold to be pretty good, usually a 1-of. In mid-late game being able to put a Gatekeeper on top and keep smashing the opponent is great.

Get rid of Depths IMO. Maybe board it in?

Depths is a great OOPS I WIN condition. It has actually won me half my games that would have otherwise been dragged on and I may have lost. I am keeping the depths combo in as it can also turn the game around.

The only issue I am debating is a 1 drop in the deck (I am satisfied with 4 vial and 4 thoughtseize as of now). It would improve my vial curve, but there is just nothing that stands out. I'm hoping they print a cursecatcheresque 1 drop for vamps in the new set!

As for the new lord. I was play testing against reanimator and found that he can actually win you games. With vial and sneaking vamps into play is amazing.

[Mystical_Jackass]

That's pretty cool, you'd deffinitely know best for that. I guess my counterargument would be, why not just run the superior BG-Dark Depths build with Tarmogoyf and cabal therapies then? Access to green not only gives you the biggest creature in the format but K-grips and Deed SB.

I'm just saying, if you want to be the best at depths, be the best Depths you can make... if you want to make the best vampires, make the best and most consistent Vamp build you can make, especially when running heavy BBB and wasteland heavy in format. That would be my say. I guess you'd have to convince me that the synergy amongst the tribal > tarmagoyf, make your case :P

[Tru3z3rox]

That's pretty cool, you'd deffinitely know best for that. I guess my counterargument would be, why not just run the superior BG-Dark Depths build with Tarmogoyf and cabal therapies then? Access to green not only gives you the biggest creature in the format but K-grips and Deed SB.

I'm just saying, if you want to be the best at depths, be the best Depths you can make... if you want to make the best vampires, make the best and most consistent Vamp build you can make, especially when running heavy BBB and wasteland heavy in format. That would be my say. I guess you'd have to convince me that the synergy amongst the tribal > tarmagoyf, make your case :P

Tribal > a solitary Goyf. Gatekeeper and Smallpox can make you sac him anyway.

@Dark Depths just works well with hexmages who have lots of utility anyway. It is basically a, "why not run it anyway alongside anyway?" I don't rely on it as a primary win condition, but as a secondary. Depths on their own are just tier two anyway.

At the last tournament I played many decks with goyf in them and I won pretty consistently. I also don't want to open myself up more to wastelands and stifles. I like being mono colored.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Tribal > a solitary Goyf. Gatekeeper and Smallpox can make you sac him anyway.

@Dark Depths just works well with hexmages who have lots of utility anyway. It is basically a, "why not run it anyway alongside anyway?" I don't rely on it as a primary win condition, but as a secondary. Depths on their own are just tier two anyway.

I didn't really mean playing against Goyf so much. I meant something like running Goyf, Bob, Hexmage, and Ghast like some tournament lists I've seen, a friend of mine ran a deck like that and it was strong.


At the last tournament I played many decks with goyf in them and I won pretty consistently. I also don't want to open myself up more to wastelands and stifles. I like being mono colored.

You lost me with that last comment, what are you talking about, you're running like 6 fetchland, hexmage.. vial could be stifled.. wasteland on Depths or Urborgs... ?

[Tru3z3rox]

I didn't really mean playing against Goyf so much. I meant something like running Goyf, Bob, Hexmage, and Ghast like some tournament lists I've seen, a friend of mine ran a deck like that and it was strong.



You lost me with that last comment, what are you talking about, you're running like 6 fetchland, hexmage.. vial could be stifled.. wasteland on Depths or Urborgs... ?

Not many people were running stifle. Wasteland on depths doesn't bother me because I generally don't play it unless I have a hexmage in play to respond with.

[Tru3z3rox]

What do you guys think of running 8 lords in vamps alongside 3 guul draz assassin? I'm leaning less discard and more creature control in a more aggro meta.

[overpowered]

What do you guys think of running 8 lords in vamps alongside 3 guul draz assassin? I'm leaning less discard and more creature control in a more aggro meta.

My opinion: Your assassin will see more removal than you can provide protection for. With barely enough +X/+1 to even make his toughness a consideration, he may end up being a mana dump that never pays off (costing you tempo and ultimately games). Most removal in the format is instant and costs one mana.

The reason that fish works is because they can generally counter the creatures/spells they need to with a strong base of lords and synergistic abilities (see Merrow Reejerey). Vampires can't do that. Creatures get removed and the Black form of permission is discard. You're going to end up with an aggro deck that can be de-clawed by a singleton or timely Path to Exile/Lightning Bolt alongside some good blocking.

If you let them sit on a hand full of removal, and you keep dropping creatures, they'll just remove the consequential ones. I think that discard is one of the most important aspects of this deck and allows the vampires to go the distance they need to.

I hate to call them mediocre, but the power creep hasn't done enough for Vampires like it has for Bant, who just ALSO gets to run Goyf (the benchmark for power in Legacy). I love Vampires, but without discard, I don't think you're looking at a strong deck.

Playtest some Goblins vs Zoo and watch them kill your warchiefs time after time after time. It destroys the deck's chance if you can't repeatedly answer, and discard forces THEM to now find answers instead of you.

[Tru3z3rox]

My opinion: Your assassin will see more removal than you can provide protection for. With barely enough +X/+1 to even make his toughness a consideration, he may end up being a mana dump that never pays off (costing you tempo and ultimately games). Most removal in the format is instant and costs one mana.

The reason that fish works is because they can generally counter the creatures/spells they need to with a strong base of lords and synergistic abilities (see Merrow Reejerey). Vampires can't do that. Creatures get removed and the Black form of permission is discard. You're going to end up with an aggro deck that can be de-clawed by a singleton or timely Path to Exile/Lightning Bolt alongside some good blocking.

If you let them sit on a hand full of removal, and you keep dropping creatures, they'll just remove the consequential ones. I think that discard is one of the most important aspects of this deck and allows the vampires to go the distance they need to.

I hate to call them mediocre, but the power creep hasn't done enough for Vampires like it has for Bant, who just ALSO gets to run Goyf (the benchmark for power in Legacy). I love Vampires, but without discard, I don't think you're not looking at a strong deck.

Playtest some Goblins vs Zoo and watch them kill your warchiefs time after time after time. It destroys the deck's chance if you can't repeatedly answer, and discard forces THEM to now find answers instead of you.

I see your point. Snuff-out instead? Maybe guul draz vampire?

I feel as if too much discard is counter productive to the aggro plan especially in topdeck mode. I absolutely hate getting discard after turn 4 as their hand is usually empty. Creature kill answers the issue, but in a different zone of the game and at the cost of 4 life instead of 2 (Took out thoughtseizes but kept in 4 cabal therapies).

[overpowered]

I think Hymn to Tourach is enough discard alongside therapy. One is generally enough to be devastating. It is also hard card advantage. Therapy on its own doesn't end up doing enough.

I still think Guul Draz is a bad tempo investment, but Snuff-Out is a step in the right direction. I was going to suggest Shriekmaw, but he just ends up doing what Gatekeeper does with a nocturnus. Also, Snuff-Out is free and that's VERY important in this decks curve. I considered Contagion (just because I like the -2/-1 power sink on Rhox War Monks, Nactls and Goyfs) but found it to be ineffective with the decks lack of draw engine.

Another recurring strategy might be Shriekmaw + Sword of Light and Shadow. It also works with your Gatekeepers and Nighthawks. It's great on Bloodghast as it stops them from topdecking permanent removal for him and can surprise them on turn 5 when you return him, cast sword and then equip it.

I've been running it and it's pretty cool. I also run 4 Malakir Bloodwitch. I'll up my list when I've done more testing, but I agree that I'd like to see vampires be competitive in Legacy.

[Tru3z3rox]

I think Hymn to Tourach is enough discard alongside therapy. One is generally enough to be devastating. It is also hard card advantage. Therapy on its own doesn't end up doing enough.

I still think Guul Draz is a bad tempo investment, but Snuff-Out is a step in the right direction. I was going to suggest Shriekmaw, but he just ends up doing what Gatekeeper does with a nocturnus. Also, Snuff-Out is free and that's VERY important in this decks curve. I considered Contagion (just because I like the -2/-1 power sink on Rhox War Monks, Nactls and Goyfs) but found it to be ineffective with the decks lack of draw engine.

Another recurring strategy might be Shriekmaw + Sword of Light and Shadow. It also works with your Gatekeepers and Nighthawks. It's great on Bloodghast as it stops them from topdecking permanent removal for him and can surprise them on turn 5 when you return him, cast sword and then equip it.

I've been running it and it's pretty cool. I also run 4 Malakir Bloodwitch. I'll up my list when I've done more testing, but I agree that I'd like to see vampires be competitive in Legacy.

I've not liked hymn in the deck in a while. I prefer therapy because I call threats that stop my gameplan (Paths, swords, etc). I don't care about much else.

Equipements are too rough on nocturnus...

I would love to see your list though. I may take this to a tournament within a couple of weeks...we shall see...

[Tru3z3rox]

Here is my new list:
Land:
8 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dark Depths
2 Volrath's Stronghold

Sorceries:
4 Thoughtseize
2 Smallpox

Creatures (2cc):
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Bloodghast

Creatures (3cc):
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Captivating Vampire

Creatures (4cc):
4 Vampire Nocturnus
1 Mirri the Cursed

Instants:
4 Smother

Artifacts:
4 Aether Vial


This is my edited list.