G/W/b Rock Loam

[Hanni]

I really didn't know where to post this, so I just started a new thread. I felt like if I were to post this in The Rock thread, I'd get directed to Aggro Loam, and if I posted this in Aggro Loam, I'd get directed to The Rock. If a mod feels this is better placed in one of those, by all means do so. If there is already a thread for this concept, by all means please move this to there.

This will not be a primer thread. I just wanted to post the deck and get some discussion on the concept.

For a while, I've enjoyed playing Aggro Loam and variations, including blue splashes like the UGb Inuition Thresh deck I worked on for a while, G/W Terrageddon, and plenty of others.

Recently, I've tried looking at some things in a vacuum. It seems for Survival, Bant is better than Rock because it helps protect the engine better. For Loam, though, Rock just looks like the most appealing color combination. I realize Aggro Loam is highly successful with its red splash, and it would seem like red would be much better against aggro too. Maybe that is the case, and regular Aggro Loam is just straight up better than this. Rock, on the other hand, is probably faster without adding in a Loam engine, which is already a midrange deck. Maybe this entire idea is fail.

However, I really think there is great strength in a G/W/b Aggro Loam + The Rock style deck. It has tons of great control cards, and the draw engine of Loam gives the deck superior midrange and lategame.

Let me just start with a sample list:

G/W/b Rock Loam

// Lands
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [A] Savannah
2 [U] Bayou
2 [B] Scrubland
1 [RAV] Forest (2)
1 [OD] Plains (3)
3 [EVG] Tranquil Thicket
3 [ON] Secluded Steppe
4 [MPR] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
4 [US] Exploration
4 [OD] Entomb
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [JGC] Vindicate
2 [EX] Cataclysm

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

I want to say that the sideboard is a horrible mess, and one thing I'm hoping this thread can help me with. There's so many good cards, between being able to land tutor with KoTR and graveyard tutor with Entomb, and with a color combination like GWb, there's just so much good stuff. Raven's Crime, Maze of Ith, Pernicious Deed, Nantuko Monastery, Volrath's Stronghold, the list just goes on and on.

Aside from the sideboard, I think the maindeck has the potential to be very strong. Knight of the Reliquary is going to be big, simple. He can tutor for Wastelands to improve consistency with the manabase destruction theme of Aggro Loam. Vindicate can further the punishment when need be, destroying basics and all. Top that off with Cataclysm, and the opponent's manabase is going to feel alot of pressure. However, manabase destruction is not even the focus here. Vindicate destroys any permanent, and works nicely at handling everything. In conjunction with StP and Cataclysm, the deck has plenty of resources for answering critters, as The Rock should.

Entomb is just crazy awesome, and the whole reason I decided to go this route. I've always liked Intuition, but it's always felt slow. Burning Wish is even slow at 2cc. Entomb costs 1 mana. This is insane. The ability to go turn 1 Entomb, turn 2 Loam engine is brutally fast in comparison with older Loam decks. Of course, Mox Diamond often accelerated Burning Wish into doing the same thing, but that doesn't change how much faster 1cc is vs 2cc. The only problem is that this requires dropping Chalice, which is one of the great strengths of Aggro Loam. Unfortunately, this is a necessary evil given The Rock shell. This can be fixed with cards like Thoughtseize, StP, and the like. Postboard, hatebears are the best solution I've come up with, although Chalices may still be better.

I really like how the deck can drop Entomb midgame to grab a Worm Harvest as a powerful answer to aggro decks. The deck should hopefully survive until then, with Goyf to block, StP, etc... and then just instantly making a bunch of 1/1 tokens from a topdecked Entomb is awesome.

Cataclysm is a freaking house, and in conjunction with Entomb, these two cards are the main reason this deck is differentiated from Aggro Loam, and why it has me so intrigued.

There are many obvious questions I have though, which is why I've made this thread. Aside from the sideboard issue, what is the correct number of fetchlands to run? Correct number of cycling lands? Horizon Canopy or no? Volrath's Stronghold, Tabernacle, etc maindeck or no? Is 3 Loam the right number? If not, less or more? Is 2 Cataclysm enough, or should I go to 3? If not, should I sideboard more? Does Solitary Confinement have a place? What about Armageddon?

I have many many more questions like that, and I'm hoping discussion about this concept can help me to form a formiddable deck out of this idea. I've read a bit of the New Horizons thread, I've always been in and out of the Aggro Loam thread, and I've read a little on The Rock thread. Still, I think hearing the opinion of others would greatly help in improving this deck.

I appreciate the feedback, thanks all.

[Aggro_zombies]

You know what's really awesome with Worm Harvest? Dakmor Salvage. Well, it is in EDH anyway (and way cheaper than using LftL).

One thing that has me worried about this deck is its sensitivity to graveyard hate, especially something like Leyline or Extirpate that can nab Loams. I realize that Entomb can always just find another Loam, but I'm leery of putting all of my eggs in one basket.

You may wish to strongly consider Mox Diamond. It makes your recovery post-Cataclysm much faster without the need to sandbag anything.

Coming back to Entomb: I realize you love it, but it just seems so ho-hum here. Okay, sure, you use it to find LftL. You're infinitely worse at abusing LftL than Lands is. You can use it to find Worm Harvest, which is legitimate, but I'm not sure I want to waste four slots in my deck on ways to find Worm Harvest when there are so many more broken things you can do with Entomb (like, iunno, Iona or something). Basically, you're just using Loam as a draw engine, which is nice, but Jace TMS is a draw engine and win condition all in one card, so like...

Also, you're pretty bad at interacting with decks that aren't into the whole "attacking" thing. Like, Lands will crush you just by virtue of blanking your Cataclysms, using LftL much more efficiently, and not really caring about Worm Harvest or single attackers. Reanimator is much faster than you, and naming white with Iona leaves you no outs. Combo is, well, combo. And so on.

Basically, I'm not really sure what benefit you get from being kind of good in a lot of matchups and kind of bad in a lot of others when you could just play a deck that has a bunch of auto-wins and accept the fact that you just scoop in some other matchups. Your deck isn't exactly the Rock in the sense that it doesn't run the same board-control elements and isn't particularly interested in grinding out card advantage, but it's still a midrange control deck at heart - and midrange control decks tend to be pretty bad in wide-open metagames because they're trading win percentage in some matchups for win percentage in other matchups. Basically just versatility over specialization. However, given the wide array of stupid things you can do in modern Legacy, I'm not sure you're better off trying to contain them than you are just doing something stupid yourself - and no, Worm Harvest doesn't cut it.

[Hanni]

What Loam deck isn't sensitive to its graveyard? Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary do recover well from graveyard hate, and the deck still full functions as a Rock deck without Loam going. That's kinda the point of being Loam Rock vs a normal Aggro Loam deck. A simple Entomb puts it right back into the game, and I haven't seen Extirpate in a very long time.

I originally had Mox Diamonds, but I think that without Chalice, Exploration is far stronger. The deck doesn't need to have 2 untapped mana sources turn 1 to cast a Chalice @ 1 or to cast a Burning Wish, and Exploration has way better recovery than Mox Diamond after a Cataclysm. When you are capable of dropping 2 lands a turn, the deck can quickly move to midrange where it's drawing a ton of cards and playing a ton of spells in a single turn, and Mox Diamond isn't nearly as powerful beyond turn 1.

I realize I'm worse than Lands at abusing Life from the Loam; there is no better deck at abusing the card. That doesn't invalidate Aggro Loam, nor should it invalidate this deck. It still adds to the deck a formiddable draw engine, Wastelock, and way to draw alot of cards, all while making KoTR and Worm Harvest bigger.

Entomb is not only good at grabbing Loam initially, but it can be useful after the first. Grabbing Wasteland, cycle lands, or specifically Worm Harvest, is very good after the deck has Loam. If anything, I'd lower the Loam count before lowering Entomb. It's also nice postboard when the deck can run singleton silver bullets that both Entomb and KoTR can grab.

I realize Entomb isn't going to be putting Iona's and such in my graveyard, but it gets my powerful draw engine online and tutors for my recurrable win condition which happens to be anti aggro in Worm Harvest, so just because it fills a stronger role in Reanimator, doesn't make it a bad card in Loam.

Jace is a nice draw engine, but I don't see how it's comparable to Life from the Loam. Why doesn't Aggro Loam drop the Loam engine and splash a double blue costed Planeswalker, if that were the case? I can't realistically answer your question here because it just seems absurd. Are you saying that Jace is a good card and that I should just build a blue based control deck like a deck I already play (U/W/b Planeswalker/Counterbalance), or were you actually being serious here, suggesting I play a double blue costed Planeswalker in a GWb deck? I'm just not understanding that comment or suggestion at all...

The Lands matchup: how is this matchup for any Loam based deck? Or even a regular Rock deck? I mean, there are tools like graveyard hate to answer them, whereas them bringing in graveyard hate for me doesn't completely shut my deck down... I agree this is a matchup that should be a concern, tested, and the right sideboard materials should be present to handle it. Does this mean that 1 matchup makes my entire deck irrelevant?

Reanimator is way faster at putting a fatty in the yard, which can be easily handled when tuned to do so. How does Aggro Loam or The Rock handle such things? I'm sure the same strategies can apply to this, and why wouldn't graveyard hate, tutorable Karakas, etc not work?

You haven't really presented any real reason for why this won't work, beyond speculation. All you say is that I'm going to have bad matchups and not improve any good matchups, without actually explaining the differences this has in said matchups vs the standard Aggro Loam or The Rock decks.

What I like about this deck is that it can be The Rock without Loam if graveyard hate hits me, and otherwise can be an Aggro Loam deck with better board control than standard Aggro Loam when Loam is going. Why is this idea trash again? Or are you saying both Aggro Loam and The Rock are trash? Or are you saying combining Aggro Loam and The Rock is trash? If it's the latter, can you please explain why this is so, without just saying that it is? Saying Entomb is stronger in Reanimator and Loam is stronger in 43 Lands isn't doing it for me, neither is saying that this is worse than The Rock at playing a rockish game. This deck is very similar to Aggro Loam, minus the Chalices and red splash, plus more board control and a white splash. It makes the deck a little different in approach, but the general gameplay is still similar...

Other than that, does anyone have any postitive/constructive criticism that can help me improve the deck design? That was the point of me making this thread, after all...

[MrShine]

In terms of the playability of an archetype like this, I see where you are both coming from. As a longtime Rock player, I have been oscillating back and forth between aggro builds, control builds, and hybrid loam-type builds. What I can say about all of them is that no matter what, Combo is a nightmare, which, despite my long-lived dedication to the deck, makes it a bad choice in the meta these days. These kinds of decks crush aggro and aggro-control, but have a hard time against anything else, really, not to mention goblins.

That being said, the idea has merit; what I would suggest right off the bat, though, is that Entomb probably isnt really necessary. In my experience Loam is good in this kind of deck not because you can make an engine out of it but because it plays well into the lategame board control plan, allowing us to recur wastelands and the like, potentially grabbing something spicy like Worm Harvest or Constant Mists (with Witness, of course). On that note, where is Eternal Witness + Volrath's Stronghold? Stronghold just amps up the recursion aspect tenfold. While it is also highly graveyard dependent, like you said the Rock has the ability to ignore GY hate quite well. Furthermore, if we are going in on a GY/Loam plan might as well make the best of it.

I'd also like to espouse the sheer awesomeness of Knight of the Reliquary. Some testing lately with a couple new builds has taught me that an active Knight that can fetch out answers like Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, Wasteland and their ilk is crazy good. I would highly consider putting in some singleton knight targets.

Anyway, the deck can be good but I just dont think that there is enough aggro to make this deck (and Rock-ish decks in general) truely awesome... because where there is aggro, there is combo, and being a non-blue based control deck means that we have maybe 5% against storm/reanimator. Where I will end off is that I have been testing blue lately (over black) and have liked it so far; Intuition, while slow, allows for some good packages mid-late game that outclass Entomb in terms of redundancy. Additionally, Blue allows for better chances vs combo without sacrificing much in the aggro matchups as well as opening up potential Engineered explosives/Academy Ruins synergy (with or without Intuition - its just gravy in this case).

PS - I LOVE the idea of Exploration; I have been meaning to test it in the Rock to see if the early land advantage/tempo could make up for the high cost of the control cards the deck employs, bringing us to a more level playing field vs the speed of the format.

Peace, MrShine

[brianw712]

I'm surprised this archetype hasn't been explored more. Here's the list I've been testing:

3 Bayou
1 Maze of Ith
3 Polluted Delta
1 Cabal Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
4 Barren Moor
3 Scrubland
1 Karakas

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

1 Raven's Crime
1 Worm Harvest
3 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mox Diamond
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate

SB:

1 Vindicate
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
1 Null Rod
2 Diabolic Edict

Kind of a mix between Trisomy 21 and traditional Rock, except with better tribal matchups than Trisomy because you actually have large bodies to block, and with a better late game than traditional Rock due to the Loam engine. Definitely not optimal yet, the slot that I'm least sure about is Sinkhole. It definitely helps in preventing people from reaching Jace mana, although it is suboptimal against aggro builds (although putting Tabernacle main might alleviate this problem). There are a million different routes you could take with this archetype, what with Knight targets, Entomb/no Entomb, etc., and I would like to hear others' opinions on it.

[novatinhu]

My list is:


// Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Maze of Ith
4 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Cabal Pit
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
3 Barren Moor
1 Swamp
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Wasteland

// Creatures
1 Gigapede
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Worm Harvest
4 Thoughtseize
2 Entomb
3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cataclysm
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Raven's Crime
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Karakas


And the name of the Rock Loam is "Trisomy of 21".