[Deck] MUD

[majikal]

MUD is a Legacy port of a popular Vintage deck that is composed primarily of artifacts. The object is to disrupt your opponent's development long enough to steal the win from them with a cheap threat, while at the same time ensuring that they cannot recover from their stunted board position. This can be achieved through artifacts that tax your opponent's spells, such as Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Lodestone Golem, and Thorn of Amethyst, land/permanent destruction via Wasteland and Smokestack, and/or tap-down effects such as Rishadan Port and Tangle Wire.

The deck abuses these taxing effects alongside cards that generate massive amounts of mana, effectively bypassing the downside of the lock pieces.

There are typically four different approaches to the deck - Aggro, Control, Combo, and hybridized builds that try to capitalize on aspects of all three. Since the deck is more or less entirely colorless, many of your options are limited, so there tends to be a significant amount of overlap between builds.


Here is a sample of a more control-oriented build:

4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
2x Razormane Masticore or Masticore

4x Trinisphere
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Tangle Wire
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Smokestack

4x Grim Monolith
4x Voltaic Key
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Rishadan Port
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland

I chose to showcase this build because I feel it is the middle ground between the other two versions. The more aggressive builds will drop some of the lock pieces for more creatures and equipment like Sword of Fire and Ice or Umezawa's Jitte, while the combo versions tend to run Staff of Domination to draw the majority of their deck, generate an arbitrary amount of mana, and cast everything in their hand or any number of kill conditions ranging from Sundering Titan to Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.

All in all, MUD is effective in disrupting the more popular decks in the current format, such as New Horizons and Bant, while almost completely ignoring the lock mechanism utilized by Counterbalance/Top decks. Aggro such as Zoo is quite winnable, while the troublesome matches tend to be things like Goblins that can swarm faster than you can lock them down, as well as midrange strategies such as The Rock.

I will post more testing info here as I gather it, as well as tournament placings. If you happen to do well in your local event with your own MUD build, post in this thread or PM me your decklist and the place that you finished, and I will add it to the OP.

[Hopo]

I've been buiding a similar list, without Juggernaut, though and only 2 All is Dust, since it's anyway quite expensive at 7 mana. Instead I have a number of Spheres of Resistance, Crucibles and Karn, Silver Golems. I see Crucible as a must-to-fit-card because of the Wasteland recycling and because your manabase is very vulnerable to Wasteland by itself.

What I made differently is eventually leaving Emrakul out after testing. As a 1-of it has only been findable and castable with an active Metalworker, which is a winning position already. I'm now trying Kozilek, which is actually relevantly more castable without Metalworker. But I have a feeling that I will end up cutting the eldrazi in favor of more 4-of's.

I like the build, though. It's very streamlined and All is Dust is a really huge card. It's only bad against combo, and you have about 20 relevant cards for that matchup anyway.

[overseer1234]

I still enjoy playing my old 5/3 deck, here's what I'm still having fun with:

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Mox Diamond
3x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Trinisphere
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
3x Razormane Masticore
4x Su-Chi
1x Karn, Silver Golem
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Crystal Vein
4x Mishra’s Factory
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:
4x Pithing Needle
4x Tormod’s Crypt
3x meta slot
4x meta slot

meta slot's could be: null brootch, silent arbitter, winter orb, defence grid,.....

It still workds pretty good and I use sphere of resistance over trinisphere because it's cumulative with multiples, and golem + it's easier to drop on the first turn.

I also have a more agro version of the deck without the metalworker (play cathodion, or phyrexian war beast instead of metalworker, trinisphere instead of sphere of resistance, an extra crucible instead of an equipment, and blinkmoth nexus/mutavault instead of rishadan port.)

[Koguma]

What do you all think of running Expedition Map? at 1cc it can come down really early and help establish a Waste-lock with Crucible. I've seen a few Vintage MUD lists that utilize Expedition Map to get a Strip-lock online and was wondering how feasible it would be in Legacy.

[EssKay]

If you are thinking about MUD, you should consider some common inclusions in Vintage lists:


Karn, Silver Golem
Triskelion
Sphere of Resistance
Duplicant


Of course, Vintage lists have far more acceleration, I'm wondering if Everflowing Chalice might not be good here. With Metalworker I think you could consistently have 3-5 counters on it, which would be pretty nuts.

[mujadaddy]

My version splashes blue for Arcane Laboratory & Academy Ruins and uses Mox Diamonds to get the rarely-needed blue mana. Just putting that out there.

[overseer1234]

If you are thinking about MUD, you should consider some common inclusions in Vintage lists:


Karn, Silver Golem
Triskelion
Sphere of Resistance
Duplicant


Of course, Vintage lists have far more acceleration, I'm wondering if Everflowing Chalice might not be good here. With Metalworker I think you could consistently have 3-5 counters on it, which would be pretty nuts.

if you get is down consistently with 3-4 counters then you should've casted something more relevant with that 6-8 mana...

triskelion is good in vintage since the only creature's you usualy kill are: welders, mox monkey's, dark confidant's, ... in legacy most relevant creature's have 2 or more toughnes, so a 2/2 that pings 2 for 6 mana doesn't sound so good (razormane does his job a lot better)

duplicant might be a cool sideboard card vs reanimate (doesn't do anything about inkwell though)

karn might get upped to 2 in my own list,

and I allready run SOR over 3-spehre, however kan does make trinisphere a 3/3 so maybe i'll change those...

[bleuisforwhimps]

Lets splash bleu, really => Master of etherium is a monster in here + you get academy ruins and you can add thoughtcast or thirst for knowledge for some carddraw too. It aint really MUD anymore but it would be the better deck I think.

[majikal]

Lets splash bleu, really => Master of etherium is a monster in here + you get academy ruins and you can add thoughtcast or thirst for knowledge for some carddraw too. It aint really MUD anymore but it would be the better deck I think.
The problem with this is the mana base, I think. Mox Diamond doesn't do enough on its own to warrant a blue splash, and taking out any of the 2-mana lands seems bad. I agree that Master of Etherium is huge, and I may have to try that, but what lands would I replace? Darksteel Citadel? I suppose these could be Seat of the Synod or Island - probably Island since Null Rod destroys us otherwise.

Maybe a mana base of:

4x Mox Diamond
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Crystal Vein
4x Island

and then just have 4x Master of Etherium as the only blue cards?

Of course, All is Dust would have to come out... but in testing it's proving to be best as a sideboard card, so that might be okay.

[EssKay]

if you get is down consistently with 3-4 counters then you should've casted something more relevant with that 6-8 mana...

triskelion is good in vintage since the only creature's you usualy kill are: welders, mox monkey's, dark confidant's, ... in legacy most relevant creature's have 2 or more toughnes, so a 2/2 that pings 2 for 6 mana doesn't sound so good (razormane does his job a lot better)

duplicant might be a cool sideboard card vs reanimate (doesn't do anything about inkwell though)

karn might get upped to 2 in my own list,

and I allready run SOR over 3-spehre, however kan does make trinisphere a 3/3 so maybe i'll change those...

Whoops, meant to have Razormane in that list but forgot. I still like Everflowing Chalice....I've played against Vintage lists before and the amount of acceleration they run is just insane, most of which we don't have access to in Legacy. If 6-8 mana on t3 is good, 9-12 on t4 is even better, and that seems pretty relevant. I just think relying on Metalworker alone is too risky in a format full of removal.

I think this is definitely a deck to start working on though, Scars may hold a ton of new options for it.

[overseer1234]

Whoops, meant to have Razormane in that list but forgot. I still like Everflowing Chalice....I've played against Vintage lists before and the amount of acceleration they run is just insane, most of which we don't have access to in Legacy. If 6-8 mana on t3 is good, 9-12 on t4 is even better, and that seems pretty relevant. I just think relying on Metalworker alone is too risky in a format full of removal.

I think this is definitely a deck to start working on though, Scars may hold a ton of new options for it.

Agreed, I play Agro MUD in vintage myself, but I never want to cast something that cost's 9-12 mana, shjort of sundering titan (that I don't play anymore)

Like: if you have 6-8 mana on turn 3, wouldn't it be better to just play good stuff THAT turn, instead of playing crapy accel that ends up being useless the turn after you drop your hand? At least metalworker carry's equipment, andbeats.

I think it's BECAUSE you play so many expensive spells that you start relying on metalworker.

For me metalworker is there simply to cast my 2-5 mana spells while I can use my wastelands, and port's for disruption, or try to keep the pressure up because my city of traitor's and crystal vein got binned (the crucible's are just a surplus for that fact).

Metalworker is a really cute toy since it's been unbanned, and really nut's if you get to untap with it in play (and your hand is full, but (same as in vintage) it's not the backbone of the deck...

[EssKay]

Metalworker is a really cute toy since it's been unbanned, and really nut's if you get to untap with it in play (and your hand is full, but (same as in vintage) it's not the backbone of the deck...

Right, in Vintage it's not the backbone because they have Lotus/Moxen/Academy/Grim Monolith/Sol Ring/Mana Vault as other means to power out all those 5-6 cmc guys. In Legacy we don't have any of that, and the 2-mana lands just aren't going to cut it. It doesn't necessarily have to be Everflowing Chalice, but I think the deck has to have additional acceleration, I just like Chalice because it has the potential to generate more mana than just about anything else. If we aren't going to run something else to try and ensure 6-8 mana per turn, then I think there needs to be a much larger blue component to protect the metalworkers, but then the deck starts to look a lot different.

[overseer1234]

Here's my more agro oriented list:


// Lands
4 [MM] Rishadan Port/Blinkmoth nexus/Mutavault
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [6E] Crystal Vein
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [AQ] Su-Chi
3 [10E] Razormane Masticore
1 [US] Karn, Silver Golem
4 [US] Cathodion
4 [WWK] Lodestone golem

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [8E] Defense Grid (1-sided sphere against controll is nice)
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt (does this really need an explanation)
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle (good against so much Qasali, Deed, EE, Survival, Shackles, SDT,... you name it)
SB: 3 Anty agro slot/meta slot, could be powder keg, all is dust, silent arbitter,.... depends on your liking

This deck doesn't need metalworker since the top of the curve is 5 mana, and you play 12 :2:-lands+crucible of worlds+mox diamond(in a deck with 24 lands) to keep up the pace with your own sphere's while punching face.


Karn's something I've been testing since 4 masticore's is a bit much and I like to keep the creature cound at at least 16, and lodestone myr is also on my to test list.

[majikal]

Well, it looks like we've got Grim Monolith available to us now! Wat do?

[Tempus]

4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
2x Juggernaut
4x Triskelion

4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sphere of Resistance
2x Sword of Fire and Ice

4x Mox Diamond
4x Grim Monolith
4x Crystal Vein
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland

SB:

3 Crucible (manadenial, mirror)
4 Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt (depends on the prefered amount of counters on chalice)
4 Sculpting Steel/Duplicant (Reanimator, I only fear Sphinx, everything else is raceable)
4 Pithing Needle (as mentioned by overseer1234

A little more aggressive. Metalworker allows us to drop even Triskelion T2 and Grim Monolith allows us to drop Metalworker T1 more often.
12 Spheres should be enough, Thorn isn't much of a use, since there are too many creatures out there.

[majikal]

How effective is Mox Diamond with just 20 lands?

[Hanni]

Is Grim Monolith even worth it without Power Artifact or Voltaic Key to get more than a Lotus Petal effect out of it? Yea, you can waste an entire turn spending 4 to untap it so you can get a burst of mana on the following turn... but that's hardly the point of the card in the first place. For all that, Thran Dynamo is better.

Lotus Petal > Grim Monolith
Thran Dynamo > Grim Monolith

Albeit Grim Monolith is diverse, I just don't see why you'd play it without Voltaic Key or Power Artifact.

[clavio]

If you're running tangle wire (and blue obviously) you probably want to consider Esperzoa.

[majikal]

Not sure. I'd love to run Key as well, though, since it also plays nicely with Metalworker. At that point, however, how worthwhile is it to even run Mox Diamond? We would still have the same percentage of turn-1 three drops, but we would also gain access to more consistent turn-1 four drops. Seems like that could be the right direction to take this deck.


If you're running tangle wire (and blue obviously) you probably want to consider Esperzoa.
Why? First of all it's blue and running colored mana sources in this deck doesn't seem plausible, and secondly... just, why? I mean between Tangle and sphere effects you get enough turns to either flat-out win or dig up more lock pieces, so cute tricks like bouncing your Tangle Wire don't really seem to make the cut.

[Hanni]

Why? First of all it's blue and running colored mana sources in this deck doesn't seem plausible, and secondly... just, why? I mean between Tangle and sphere effects you get enough turns to either flat-out win or dig up more lock pieces, so cute tricks like bouncing your Tangle Wire don't really seem to make the cut.

The point is that Esperzoa is an effing beast, being a 4/3 flyer for 2U is incredibly sexy. The part that sucks is that you have a mandatory bounce effect every turn. This would normally cause it to see no play, but with Tangle Wire, you turn an otherwise negative ability into a very powerful lock piece. Causing the opponent to tap 4 permanents everyturn can shut alot of decks down. Toss in a Lodestone Golem, which makes it even harder for them to cast stuff, and I could see this idea having at least some merit.

Problem is, without the Tangle Wire, Esperzoa sucks.

However, Tezzeret is an animal with Tangle Wire. Especially with something like Grim Monolith already in play, dropping Tezzeret and grabbing Tangle Wire will tap the opponent's board down while barely effecting yours. Then, you ramp the Tezzeret back up till you can grab Esperzoa, and you just keep the lock going. Interesting.

I still think it's a danger of cool things, but worth investigating.

I really want to find a way to break open Blue 5/3, though. It's a rather fun deck. You play a bunch of acceleration, big guys + Jitte, and you get disruption with Chalice (@ 1 to stop StP/Bolt/etc) and mana denial via Lodestone Golem and other possibilities like Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance/Thorn of Amethyst, Wasteland, etc.

What's the best way to build the damn thing, though? Is Faerie Stompy just strictly better?

[jazzykat]

1. Esperzoa can also bounce a tapped monolith.
2. With the Tier 1 combo decks neutered, I think we are going to see a heavy metagame shift. If you think that an early wire vs. landstill (which I believe is going to come back with an erection for the format) is bad then you are on crack.

These Blue or MUD decks may have or are getting close to critical mass that will bring them to tier 1 goodness.

[Hanni]

These Blue or MUD decks may have or are getting close to critical mass that will bring them to tier 1 goodness.

Care to post a sample list? Also, are you talking about an aggro based deck, or a control based deck? There's a huge difference between Stax and 5/3.

[majikal]

I never said that early Tangle Wire was bad. Far from it! I just questioned whether it was worth it to splash blue for a cute trick like that.

Tezzeret does seem good, however. If I had an excuse to play blue it would be him. And I would probably try and squeeze in Esperzoa in that case as well since I would already be in the color.

The problem that I'm seeing is the mana base, though. How many Islands do you run? How much land do you run? Would you run Mox Diamond? If you do, it seems bad to go beneath 24 lands minimum, and with both Mox and Monolith, that's over half your deck dedicated to mana. So how many beaters do you run in that case? It just seems like you would have to cut all the best reasons to play MUD with the end result being some kind of half-assed Faerie Stompy.

Here's what I've got currently (colorless):

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Crystal Vein
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
4x Grim Monolith
4x Voltaic Key
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Su-Chi
2x Razormane Masticore
3x SoFaI
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere/Sphere of Resistance
4x Tangle Wire
3x Crucible of Worlds

[Hanni]

In all fairness, I want to play a Blue 5/3 strictly for Master of Etherium. That guy is just too good to not play in a 5/3 deck. 3cc is a perfect casting cost for the deck, dodging Chalice @ 1 and 2, and being unaffected by Trinisphere. At the same time, he's going to be a 5/5 on average, which is bigger than Su-Chi and has a larger ass than Lodestone. Not only does he do those things, he pumps your other guys +1/+1 for no reason.

I think Tezzeret is stretching it too far. UU is just redonkulous to hit. A single blue, on the other hand... not really a problem.

Esperzoa and Master of Etherium are good choices, Mulldrifter's pretty sexy too.

[jazzykat]

Care to post a sample list? Also, are you talking about an aggro based deck, or a control based deck? There's a huge difference between Stax and 5/3.

I don't have one that I feel is worth anyones time yet, but I need to go back to my blood moon based lists that now get a colorless unthreshed cabal ritual.

@Majikal: "It just seems like you would have to cut all the best reasons to play MUD with the end result being some kind of half-assed Faerie Stompy. "

What about half assed Faerie stompy that uses the afinity mechanic?

Lastly, the best reasons for blue are: MoE, Thirst for Knowledge, Thoughtcast?, Esperzoa, Tezzerret.
Red gets welder, and Bloodmoon.


I think we have a large possibility to make something come out of the unbanning of monolith AND the hurting of the Tier 1 combo decks. We just have to start testing.

[kinda]

New Jace, propaganda, mana vortex, and in the eye of chaos should be considered.

[majikal]

First thing's first - what kind of mana base are we talking about for this blue MUD deck? Because you need at least Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors, and probably Wasteland and Mishra's Factory. This leaves you with 4-8 land slots, depending on how you approach it.

Mox Diamond? You need at least 24 lands, and at that point Grim Monolith just seems like overkill.

Chrome Mox? Remember you can't Imprint artifacts even if they have a color.

4 Islands doesn't seem to cut it if you're running more than just a couple of spells with a single U in the cost, and if you run more than that you cripple your Stompy base.

I also strongly feel that anything with UU in its cost is not plausible and will only decrease the consistency of the deck.

Maybe something like
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
6x Island
4x Grim Monolith
2x open slots (I have been using these and two of the Island slots for Voltaic Key, which has really nice synergy with both Monolith and Metalworker)

The open slots can be more Equipment, Mulldrifters, or something like Karn I guess. Maybe Staff of Domination?

And then we'd have a creature base of something like
4x Lodestone
4x Master of Etherium
4x Metal Worker
2x Masticore/Razormane

I'm not really sold on this configuration, however I will test it. I feel like part of the reason to play the deck is that you can feasibly start running out most of your bombs on turn one, and without Mox Diamond you really can't do that with Master of Etherium.

At any rate I will post some findings in the next few weeks.

[Hanni]

Majikal, so that we have a way to make some discussion, this is my starting point:

// Lands
4 [IN] Island (2)
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MPR] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
1 [CFX] Esperzoa
4 [DD2] Mulldrifter

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [V09] Trinisphere
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [UL] Grim Monolith

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NE] Tangle Wire
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 [8E] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

I've been toying with ideas of Frogmite, or other explosive ideas like more flying guys + Cranial Plating, but nothing's concrete right now. I'm trying to gauge if Monolith is worth it without Voltaic Key. On one hand, it increases the consistency of turn 1 Trinispheres and turn 1 Metalworkers, which is good. It also gets more artifacts down on the board as opposed to Lotus Petal, making Master of Etherium bigger. It can also be used on turn 1 and not tapped, giving you 6 available mana next turn, so you can cast Daze-proof Lodestones, Chalices @ 2, etc. On turns where you have a bunch of mana sources and nothing to cast, you can untap the Monolith incase you rip a Mulldrifter... topdecked Mulldrifter with an assload of manasources can put you right back into a game you're losing, or be the deal-sealer if you were winning.

Also, I'm on the fence with Esperzoa. On one hand, 2U for a 4/3 flyer is very awesome. On the other hand, it's ability is a huge liability. If you have enough lands, simply bouncing a Citadel or or Synod every turn doesn't hurt much. With Grim Monolith, it's not a drawback at all. Without an artifact land or Monolith, it's horrible. I'm thinking I could reasonably run 1-2 copies and be fine. I'm testing with 1 for now. It does make Monolith better, which is nice. It also has synergies with Tangle Wire... though I don't think turn 1 Monolith-fueled Tangle Wires are as savage as turn 1 Trinispheres...

This current decklist is clearly unoptimized. It's just a base to start from, please keep that in mind.

EDIT: Mulldrifter + Grim Monolith have been a pretty strong engine in goldfishing. Whether or not it's strong against actual opponent's is uncertain. I'll do some more goldfishing first and then take it for a spin on MWS. However, Mulldrifer + Master of Etherium is not so hot, and it costs more mana once Lodestone Golem is down. I don't know yet. Any artifact creatures that draw cards that could replace Mulldrifter?

[Jaynel]

I think something like:
4 Tomb
4 City
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Grim Monolith

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Esperzoa
4 Master of Etherium

4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere
3 Staff of Domination
3 Tangle Wire
2 Jitte/Voltaic Key/???

SB:
4 Needle
4 Relic
4 Winter Orb
3 Powder Keg

Seems kinda light on threats. Not sure Tangle Wire is worth it, but it might make the cut.

@Hanni: Faerie Mechanist? lol

[Hanni]

Faerie Mechanist is interesting. I actually like that idea, as funny as that sounds, even though it doesn't have the raw card advantage and draw power of Mulldrifter. +1/+1 to and from Master of Etherium, producing mana from Metalworker's, and not costing more when a Lodestone Golem out all sound like solid reasonings. I rarely use Mulldrifter for only the evoke cost, and pick 1 out of 3, when my whole deck is artifacts, is probably not too much worse than draw 2. I'll try it, thanks for the idea.

I also actually really like the cc. As opposed to the 2U guys, this guy actually gets accelerated from a Grim Monolith. Turn 1 Tomb, Monolith. Turn 2, Faerie Mechanist, Jitte, go. Amirite?

EDIT: Yea, in testing, he is clearly the superior card in a deck that wants as many cards as possible in the deck to be artifacts. I run 44 total artifacts, making more than 2/3 my deck an artifact. 8 of my lands are artfiacts, so even if I needed Mechanist to draw me land, thats still an option. Even though it only draws 1 card, it can put 2 crap cards back on bottom, essentially digging 3 deep instead of 2. Considering how inconsistent these sort of decks can sometimes be, I'd say that Mechanist was the perfect suggestion as a draw engine.

2/2 Flying on it's own might not be so great, but once it starts getting +1/+1 counters from Master of Etherium and a Jitte equipped, it gets pretty sweet.

[majikal]

Faerie Mechanist is interesting. I actually like that idea, as funny as that sounds, even though it doesn't have the raw card advantage and draw power of Mulldrifter. +1/+1 to Master of Etherium, producing mana from Metalworker's, and not costing more when a Lodestone Golem out all sound like solid reasonings. I rarely use Mulldrifter for only the evoke cost, and pick 1 out of 3, when my whole deck is artifacts, is probably not too much worse than draw 2. I'll try it, thanks for the idea.

I also actually really like the cc. As opposed to the 2U guys, this guy actually gets accelerated from a Grim Monolith. Turn 1 Tomb, Monolith. Turn 2, Faerie Mechanist, Jitte, go. Amirite?
This actually seems pretty solid. I do feel like the number of Artifact lands might need to be cut, however, since Null Rod is becoming a popular sideboard choice to combat CB/Top decks.

[Jon Stewart]

Tangle Wire and Winter Orb are awesome.

They actually benefit you thru a Trinisphere by locking down your opponent completely, where as that can't be said for Sphere of Resistence.

And the best part, Tangle Wire combos well with Esperzoa, as does Grim Monolith.

My question, what about 4 Grim Monolith + 4 Metalworker + 3 Voltaic Key + 3 Sundering Titan + 2 Staff of Domination + 2 All is Dust.

Seems like that's a combination of cards that's just ripe and waiting to be abused. Each card is fantastic on it's own, but works even better with any of the other cards on the list.

[Hanni]

// Lands
4 [IN] Island (2)
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MPR] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [CFX] Faerie Mechanist

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [V09] Trinisphere
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [UL] Grim Monolith

This shell is missing 2 cards and a sideboard.

What should the 2 cards be? Esperzoa, Frogmite, Cranial Plating, Lightning Greaves, Duplicant, Sundering Titan, Ulamog's Crusher... any ideas?

Also, I have no clue yet what would be an appropriate sideboard for this deck. I need alot more games played before I can start to work that out.

[Jon Stewart]

My suggestion is play Sundering Titan AND Voltaic Key.

What benefit is the blue splash giving you? MoE is nothing special. This isn't affinity, this deck plays high powered artifacts, affinity just plays a reallly large number of artifacts very fast.

Mechanist is also likewise nothing special. Not enough to justify adding 8 Blue Lands, 4 Mox Diamond and opening yourself up to colorscrew. You could play utility lands like Factories and Crystal Vein instead. And you could play some other lock peice.

I don't think a splash is warranted here.

If you want to splash, splash red for Goblin Welder, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon and Firesspout.

If you must splash blue, play Esperzoa and Tangle Wire. Tangle Wire is very strong in the deck.

[Kangaxx]

I feel that Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is actually alot more feasible to hardcast now with x4 Monoliths. I'd consider running it as a 2 of.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Personally, I think Voltaic Key seems like a major waste of space. I would think by the time you get it online along with a Metalworker or a Grim Monolith, you've probably spit most of your hand onto the board already. Also, without something like Staff of Domination or some other mana-sink, what are you actually using all that mana for?

EDIT: I actually agree with Jon Stewart that the red splash may be more attractive. As I look at it, blue gives the deck card draw, and red gives it the whole Dragon-Stompy-style-annoyance-suite that is Magus/Moon. Goblin Welder seems probably unnecessary though, since there isn't any sort of discard outlet to put him into shenanigans mode.

[Jon Stewart]

Voltaic Key is rarely a dead card. When you're not using it to combo with Monolith or Metalworker, you can use it to untap your creatures after they attacked. This can be important if you play creatures like Razormane Masticore.

I think the deck should play 3-4 Voltaic Key + 4 Grim Monolith + 4 Metalworker + All is Dust + 4 Big Disruptive Creatures that basically win you the game singlehandedly + maybe a couple of Staff of Dominations to also make use of all this mana, or otherwise to simply combo out with Metalworker and win.

Whether that big disruptive creature should be a 8cc Titan that actually is an artifact (for Metalworker), or a 10cc nonartifact that draws you 4 cards when you cast it, is a decision I'm not sure about.

I feel like the fact that Titan is an artifact that feeds Metalworker, and also only costs 8 mana should let you play it a couple of turns earlier, which is important.

Also important, Titan basically has annihilator (blowing up lands) the turn it comes into play, and also the turn it dies, where as Buther only has annihilator if it survives for a turn and manages to attack.

Plus Titan combos goes with Goblin Welder (especially if you play a discard outlet like Razormane Masticore).

[Hanni]

What benefit is the blue splash giving you? MoE is nothing special. This isn't affinity, this deck plays high powered artifacts, affinity just plays a reallly large number of artifacts very fast.

MoE frequently comes down on turn 2 as a 5/5. That's not special? He also pumps all of your guys +1/+1... an artifact lord, if you will. Seems pretty good to me, for an aggro version.

Mechanist is also nice, being a 2/2 flyer with a better-than-Preordain CiPT effect, in a deck that seriously needs some sort of draw/consistency increaser.

That's an aggro version though, and an aggro route isn't the only valid approach. Doesn't mean it's not valid at all, though.

You want to go a more combo-ish route, making even more mana and then dropping bigger bombs. I see that having both advantages, and disadvantages. How does that make Blue 5/3 a wrong approach?

[Jon Stewart]

I actually don't think Grim Monolith and cards of that nature are ideal for an aggro version that just wants to attack with 3cc vanilla creatures.

Aggro creatures don't need mana that bad.

IMO, Aggro artifact decks are better represented by decks like Affinity X Stompy since that plays MoE, Esperzoa and wouldn't play Grim Monolith because they just don't need that much mana. Why opt to play Blue 5/3 with Grim Monoith over Affinity X Stompy.

I think Grim Monolith is more geared towards a lockdown deck with big mana and big win conditions, and possibly utility creatures like Goblin Welder.


I also don't think MoE and Mechanist are enough to warrant splashing another color and the inconsistencies that come with that. Your build is playing 12 colored sources. There's going to be plenty of situations where you draw colored cards but no colored sources. If I were to splash, I would splash atleast 15 colored sources to ensure that situations where I don't have a colored source never happen. And to justify doing that, it would have to be either be for something exceedingly powerful (Blood Moon + Goblin Welder + Sundering Titan + Firespout + Magus of the Moon) or it would be to splash a whole host of colored spells (4 Esperzoa (w/ Tangle Wire) + 4 MoE + 4 Mechanist + 4 FoW/Thirst of Knowledge/Trinket Mage/whatever else Affinity X Stompy plays).

[keys]

These "5/3" versions with the blue splash just look like bad faerie stompy to me. I think you guys are losing direction. Start with a stax shell and move from there. Something like this:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

4 Grim Monolith
4 Voltaic Key
4 Metalworker
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
2 Staff of Domination
2 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Razormane Masticore
2 Bottled Cloister/All is Dust/other utility

Monolith+Key is pointless if you don't have a mana sink. Staff/Karn provide that service but there are probably other options I haven't considered.

[Jon Stewart]

keys, I agree completely, the Blue splash versions look like a suboptimal Fairie Stompy build without the FoWs.

I like your list, just a few suggestions...

Are you sure the land count and the Crucible count is ideal for such a mana intensive deck?

You should play Sundering Titan (and probably all is Dust as well).

It's not at all difficult for this deck to generate 7 or 8 mana.

Metalworker can do it by itself, as can Grim Monolith.

What do you think of something like this?

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Rishidan Port

4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
3 Voltaic Key
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
3 Sundering Titan
2 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Staff of Domination
2 All is Dust

[keys]

I like it. :cool:

[GoldenCid]

Reading the whole line of the thread i noticed the same weak point if it's one. Key doesn't look good with chalice. For "key effects" y preffer staff.
Another thing is the fact that a gaddock teeg fuck us if we don't run powder keg/jitte/SoFI.
Here is what i have:

// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [MOR] Mutavault
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [MI] Crystal Vein
1 [ROE] Eldrazi Temple

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
3 [RAV] Bottled Cloister
2 [REW] Powder Keg
3 [FD] Staff of Domination
1 [ROE] All Is Dust

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [IA] Zuran Orb
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [WL] Gaea's Blessing

[lolosoon]

Yay ! Monolith + Key !! =/

Add Red and WildFire and welcome back to 1999 (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p91199.html)!!!

Seriously, with an hypotetical decline of Combo and rise of Zoo, Goblin and Landstill, Wildfire is really tempting.

MetalWorker+WildFire is a non-bo though...

[dahcmai]

Well, glad to see a thread already started up on this. I was working up a list of course due to the Grim Monolith announcement.

I like the list Goldencid posted. I will have to give that a shot.

I have one I used red, only for Goblin Welder really and another for blue.

The blue one uses the same basic shell with In the Eye of Chaos, Propaganda, and Chronotog for the kill. I miss the old days of using Time Vault as the kill mech.

On another note, I doubt combo is dead, but it's sure comforting considering playing something like this just because it will be excellent against combo.

[Kangaxx]

Planar Portal is another good mana sink and can actually generate massive card advantage with Key. Basically you go nuts by searching for all 4 Keys or anything else in the deck. Seems kind of nutty to me.

[Jon Stewart]

Seriously, with an hypotetical decline of Combo and rise of Zoo, Goblin and Landstill, Wildfire is really tempting.

Getting RR for Wildfire is hard, even if you play 13 mountains. Why splash at all?

Instead of Wildfire, why not simply play All is Dust. It kills stuff like Progenitus, Emrakul and Inkwell Leviathan as well.

It also destroys enchantments which is key to the Quinn and Enchantress matchups.

Refer to my list (post 41) for an example of how to use All is Dust...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17863-[Deck]-MUD&p=464443&viewfull=1#post464443

[majikal]

Instead of Wildfire, why not simply play All is Dust. It kills stuff like Progenitus, Emrakul and Inkwell Leviathan as well.
O RLY?




Refer to my list (post 41) for an example of how to use All is Dust...
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17863-[Deck]-MUD&p=464443&viewfull=1#post464443
Does that involve using it to kill Emrakul?

[GoldenCid]

I really surprised. The explosion of ideas derived from the unbannation of monolith. I think that the deck is cool without and with it, and i still keep straight on my possition that voltanic key + chalice is antisinergistic.

[mercc]

I love this archetype. I myself am trying different builds.
But then it occured to me, what is this deck becomes tier 1.5 or 1. Then this must be the easiest deck to hate ever?

Everybody has krosan grip already. But then, hurkyl's recall, kataki, shattering spree.

[dahcmai]

Does anyone know where the old original Weldermud thread went? I couldn't find it in the archives and it would help a lot to see an already established manabase so tune with newer stuff. I can't remember what I used to use in it and considering the decks actually have shifted back to things that were around back then. it would be nice to see. Kind of amusing how Goblins and things like that are exactly what was being played last time Monolith was around.

[GoldenCid]

I love this archetype. I myself am trying different builds.
But then it occured to me, what is this deck becomes tier 1.5 or 1. Then this must be the easiest deck to hate ever?

Everybody has krosan grip already. But then, hurkyl's recall, kataki, shattering spree.

Yes....but there is something that make us keep testing...

[Jon Stewart]

Serenity, Shattering Spree and Energy Flux are way scarier than Krosan Grip.


Does anyone know where the old original Weldermud thread went? I couldn't find it in the archives and it would help a lot to see an already established manabase so tune with newer stuff. I can't remember what I used to use in it and considering the decks actually have shifted back to things that were around back then. it would be nice to see. Kind of amusing how Goblins and things like that are exactly what was being played last time Monolith was around.

That's a good point.

WelderMUD was tweaked to beat nearly identical builds of goblins almost a decade ago. And it's manabase was perfect back then. Wonder where the old lists are.

[BKclassic]

The old welder mud list ran mishra's workshop and no grim monolith, so it was a different animal. You can find an old starcityarticle with a list in it if you search for 1.5 weldermud in google.

[Jon Stewart]

Looking at that list, I realize we completely forgot about Winter Orb.

Winter Orb works wonderfully with Tangle Wire, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem and the old Wasteland + Crucible combo.

Why not play it?

[dahcmai]

Ok, found my old WelderMud list from back then. Though I seem to remember there being Howling Mines in that deck, though I didn't have it wrote down for some reason. I might be wrong on that.

I ended up with a deck that shows an extreme amount of promise and would like some input before I go through the trouble of putting this through the gauntlet. It's had some casual playing, but nothing serious. Maybe someone will see something I am missing before I spend too much time on it. I wanted a deck resilient to the normal hate that could be expected if this got popular. It's not perfect, but it's rough on manas.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mox Diamond
4 Metalworker
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Trinisphere
1 Chronotog
1 Staff of Domination


No Board as of yet since it's untested.


I'm thinking of using Transmute Artifact to have a little bit of tutoring power since I rely on Smokestack so much. That's about the only change I think I might make so far. The mana doesn't really want to support it, but it sure would be nice to have a tutor.

Cards I tossed out so people will know I tried them.

Karn - Unnecessary, he ended up being stuck in my hand too much doing nothing or going out to get killed. He's ok, but it just didn't forward the plan enough. Ensnaring bridge turned off his ability and his own attack half the time. Clunky was the verdict.

Power Artifact combo - No point since the goal of the deck is to lock up the game not make fancy combos that I will need X spells and such for. Felt too much like "danger of cool things" to be of comfort.

Cursed Scroll - Ancient Tomb doesn't lend well to this card, though I really wanted it. It's probably bad, but I still get a laugh out of using it on Merfolk.

Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - Probably will end up in the board. Might go main again in testing. Because what's a good deck in Legacy without having some $300 card in it for people to whine about. Mox Diamond wasn't expensive enough.

In the Eye of Chaos - Board material Pa-ching! $ lol

Goblin Welder - I really want this, but in goldfishing it ended up looking like I would set chalices at 1 a lot so it had a conflict there. I may revisit it, but I doubt it with that flaw. Killing Key is already bad enough.

Propaganda - Might end up in board, though this deck in gold fishing is pretty frigging explosive.

Boomerang or some other bounce - Will definitely be in board due to Null Rod and Energy Flux being a problem if people put it out quickly.

Howling Mine - I hate this card, I really do. I can swear up and down it was in the original WelderMUD though. I might even give it a shot since dropping the power of people's card draw isn't too bad when you're clogging up the table so badly. I just really hate Howling Mine. Other than it's beta picture is cool. I have no clue why I would think this would be good in the deck, but grrr, I might end up trying it anyway.

Juggernaut, Su-Chi, Lodestone, and company - Not going in that direction. I wanted to be more of a lock down style and get away from turning guys sideways. I want to stretch people's Krosan Grips and such to the maximum and make creature hate useless, I think I did that.

Force of Will - Cmon someone give me a laugh today.

Crystal Vein - I would like this, but no room unless Mishra's leave and I think they are better served in the deck as an emergency blocker or accidental win con.

All is Dust - it was in the deck at one time as a two of, but I kept hating it. It's good, but it never showed itself to be that great. I am keeping it in mind for anything I overlook as it's a good catch all answer to a lot of things. I might end up screaming to have it back in when I actually pit this against some serious competition and not local weird shit.

Tezzeret - double U is what kicked him out. Same problem Transmute Artifact has, but in this case Transmute does what I need better.

Braid of Fire - Had this dumb idea to pay for the untap of Monolith or activate keys, go total apeshit with Mishra's Helix, or some such nonsense with the mana. Ignore this card from now on.

Carpet of Flowers - Green has this? Damnit, I don't want to splash Green. Bah, I'd love to have access to this one.

Uba Mask - Still a possibility Not so hot without a Bazaar though, but it still hoses the crap out of counters and forces people to use it or lose it in bad situations instead of trying to save up to get past a 3sphere. Also makes sure my own Bridge stays in lock down mode.


Proteus Staff - Yes, I actually was trying it out. since I had blue manas to play with I looked around for kill cards and settled on Chronotog for it's simplicity and being very similar to the old kill of Time Vault. Though this card got my mind working. Killing a Metal worker and flipping cards until you hit an Emurakul is pretty damned scary to most people. I may expand on this some since it's pretty damned good.

The bad part is it's just clunky sometimes. When you draw one of those beasties, you are stuck with it in hand as a total dead card. It doesn't further the plan at all and there's no good way to ditch it. I don't like that much. Now on the other hand, with Metalworker in the deck, I actually hard cast it a couple of times. Scary by itself. This might mean I will end up using Eldrazi Temple and go in this route much more.

I was talking about it with a friend and it's starting to look good, but I need testing of course and wanted to see how the old tried and true goblin beating build held up before I start throwing crazy ass shit like Eldrazis in there. Danger of cool things indeed.

It's just too bad the Staff doesn't work at instant speed or it would double serve as Welder/Metalworker protection.




Well, that's it. Take your stab and let me know what you think so far. I'll have some more games in by the time I check this next and can say more.

[jazzykat]

After doing an analysis of the available options, I am thinking that Proteus Staff of a manland into Emrakul is probably the most compact and game ending combo. Play a U stax shell, with 4 mishra and 4 blinkmouth and I think it would be quite effective. I will test if I have a chance. It's like prison oath, that's got to be good...

[Combo Winter]

4 welder
4 loadstone myr
4 metal worker
2 sundering titan
4 ssg
2 razormane masticore

4 chalice
4 sphere of resitance
2 trinisphere
3 sword of fire/ice
4 grim monolith

7 mountain
4 tomb
4 city
4 waste
2 factory
2 barbarian ring

This would be my prelimanary list for a welder mud style deck magus of the moon might be better than welder in a version like this but welder is one of the most powerful cards ever printed so it deserves the slot before I start testing. Also i don't really like voltaic key in MUD.

[Oiolosse]

After doing an analysis of the available options, I am thinking that Proteus Staff of a manland into Emrakul is probably the most compact and game ending combo. Play a U stax shell, with 4 mishra and 4 blinkmouth and I think it would be quite effective. I will test if I have a chance. It's like prison oath, that's got to be good...

it does in fact. I ran a deck with sundering titans and darksteel colossus. Mishra and blinkmouth and chatter of the squirrel were my enablers. Don't forget that you can use it on ANY creature.

Also, if you go that route then burning wish into show and tell isn't too far fetched. Or just run Show and Tell to being with. If big nutty creatures and spells increase then you can think about temporal aperture.

[ddt15]

Anyone have a blue stax list with Tezzerets in it? Seems like monolith would work well to get in a quick Tezzeret, use it to untap monolith, play artifacts and win the turn after with Tezz's ultimate.

If only time vault were legal in this format...

[sdematt]

If Time Vault were legal, it'd be more expensive than it is now, and Legacy would be much more like Vintage Light.

-Matt

[dahcmai]

Ok, I did a little play testing today against Goblins. Not so good results. Aether Vial wasn't around when this deck was originally played and Vial makes quite the difference in Gobbos. It's a little too fast. Occasionally, I could drop a quick Metalworker and stop Lackey, but otherwise I get steamrolled. Bridge just isn't fast enough if they have a haflway decent hand. It's a faster deck than it used to be so tuning will be needed at the very least for this.

Tangle Wire went in place of Chalices and made a huge difference. It's godlike in here at least against Goblins. I won just about every game I got it. I'm not liking the consitency though. I guess you have to suffer that with every stax deck, but I hate it. I kept wanting those Transmute Artifacts over and over. They need to find a way in.

Winter Orb seems like it needs a spot also. The deck needs more slowdown to enable the lock faster.


Lastly, the Proteus Staff experiment is worthwhile. I added two Staff's and an Emrakul and it was well worth the trouble to find a spot. It seems like they would be able to hit your Metalworker with a swords or something as you try to activate it, but as it plays out, you almost always have the game tied up so badly, they have no shot at hitting him. It's perfectly safe to just target him and search up your fattie.

I want to concentrate on this more since there's a lot of decks that can fight through Stax stuff, but they fold quickly to Emrakul and it's not hard to do.

Chronotog is cute and works just like Time Vault's role did back in the day, but I'm not sure he's needed since the Staff takes care of a win con and can be done without a hard lock. Pithing Needle and things tend to die to the Stax so you really don't need a way to remove them.


I'll be tuning more, but that Goblins match up isn't good. He won the majority of the games and despite the fact we didn't play too many, it was becoming obvious it's not a good match up. I'd say 60-40 in their favor. Goblins is just too fast and you need a bridge or Tangle Wire to slow them down. Granted I never drew a bridge against it and still won quite a few games, but you still would need a decent draw to beat that. A couple of games was just scoop due to Lackey dropping Seige gang or Warchief/ cast piledriver. Maybe having to run a firespout or something might help.

I'll test it against Bant CB and New Horizons later and let you know.

[Hanni]

What happened to the Tezzeret Stax thread? I looked through all 10 pages of New and Developmental and didn't see it. For now, I guess this does have to go here (I'll delete it if I find a Blue Stax thread to post this in):

I have an insatiable desire for Blue. I very much enjoy my Blue 5/3 deck, but here's my Blue Stax version:

// Lands
8 [IN] Island (2)
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker

// Spells
1 [FD] Staff of Domination
4 [M10] Fabricate
3 [ALA] Tezzeret the Seeker
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [US] Smokestack
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [UL] Grim Monolith

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 [8E] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [NE] Tangle Wire
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

The deck is basically your average Stax deck that uses your average Stax lockpieces to try and control the game. The difference is that the primary win condition is the Metalworker/Staff combo. Fabricate and Tezzeret make this happen faster and more consistently, but also increase the overall consistency of the deck a tremendous amount.

With Metalworker recently unbanned, and now Grim Monolith, the mana ramping has increased in consistency (more consistent turn 1 Trinisphere's and Metalworker's, for example). Increasing the explosiveness and speed of Stax seems like a step in the right direction towards improving Stax.

Everyone says Stax is uncompetitive because of it's low consistency, and I would think that the blue splash would help fix that problem... what do you guys think?

[majikal]

Ok, I did a little play testing today against Goblins. Not so good results. Aether Vial wasn't around when this deck was originally played and Vial makes quite the difference in Gobbos. It's a little too fast. Occasionally, I could drop a quick Metalworker and stop Lackey, but otherwise I get steamrolled. Bridge just isn't fast enough if they have a haflway decent hand. It's a faster deck than it used to be so tuning will be needed at the very least for this.

Tangle Wire went in place of Chalices and made a huge difference. It's godlike in here at least against Goblins. I won just about every game I got it. I'm not liking the consitency though. I guess you have to suffer that with every stax deck, but I hate it. I kept wanting those Transmute Artifacts over and over. They need to find a way in.

Winter Orb seems like it needs a spot also. The deck needs more slowdown to enable the lock faster.


Lastly, the Proteus Staff experiment is worthwhile. I added two Staff's and an Emrakul and it was well worth the trouble to find a spot. It seems like they would be able to hit your Metalworker with a swords or something as you try to activate it, but as it plays out, you almost always have the game tied up so badly, they have no shot at hitting him. It's perfectly safe to just target him and search up your fattie.

I want to concentrate on this more since there's a lot of decks that can fight through Stax stuff, but they fold quickly to Emrakul and it's not hard to do.

Chronotog is cute and works just like Time Vault's role did back in the day, but I'm not sure he's needed since the Staff takes care of a win con and can be done without a hard lock. Pithing Needle and things tend to die to the Stax so you really don't need a way to remove them.


I'll be tuning more, but that Goblins match up isn't good. He won the majority of the games and despite the fact we didn't play too many, it was becoming obvious it's not a good match up. I'd say 60-40 in their favor. Goblins is just too fast and you need a bridge or Tangle Wire to slow them down. Granted I never drew a bridge against it and still won quite a few games, but you still would need a decent draw to beat that. A couple of games was just scoop due to Lackey dropping Seige gang or Warchief/ cast piledriver. Maybe having to run a firespout or something might help.

I'll test it against Bant CB and New Horizons later and let you know.
What's your list?

I feel like a more creature-oriented build would fare better against Gobbos and aggro decks in general. I definitely find myself wanting Su-Chi in several matchups because of his 4 toughness. Right now I'm using Welder in that spot and liking it okay. The only thing is that sometimes there are no artifacts in the yard to abuse him with until you get a Razormane online or have to sac a Tangle Wire.

I've also come to the conclusion that Mox Diamond is a better choice than Voltaic Key, even with only 20 lands, since it adds a little more consistency in getting that crucial 3 mana on turn 1.

Current list:

4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Goblin Welder
2x Razormane Masticore
1x Karn, Silver Golem

4x Grim Monolith
4x Mox Diamond
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Sword of Fire and Ice

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Mountain

[jazzykat]

Just so everyone knows a su-chi going to the yard untaps monolith. If we don't use proteus staff I think we have to look at welder. If you drop him first turn off a diamond and thirst second dropping a robot like lodestone golem or Titan...

Can he put emrakuls trigger on the stack and weld him in off a thirst?

[dahcmai]

Unfortunately, everyone forgets he's not an artifact so no welder tricks with Emrakul.

as for the list I was testing, it's the one I posted earlier with a couple of changes.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mox Diamond
4 Metalworker
4 Smokestack
2 Emrakul
2 Proteus Staff
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Trinisphere
1 Chronotog
1 Staff of Domination

I wouldn't use this without some changes though. Aggro will toast you. Chronotog needs to leave for sure and I found another draw engine with Key. Top works with it quite well and adds a little consistency to the deck. You can stack the draw trigger and untap it to draw more than one card. Not a bad little engine.

[conboy31]

Can he put emrakuls trigger on the stack and weld him in off a thirst?

You could if he was an artifact.

[GoldenCid]

@Hanni. I liked so much your list! Indeed. The only problem i see is the lack of removal of low cost. What about gaddock teeg??? It cuts, smoke, tezz and so on. Maybe cronatog should be concidered.
And another question after the obvious win con of MW + SoD the next one is tezz last ability???
Maybe 1 copy of stroke of genious like alternative should be considered!

[michaelq]

Is it just me or is Metalworker pretty underwhelming? He's 3 for a 1/2 body that doesn't do much if you don't have anything heavy in your hand. I'm more for shaving the curve, keeping traditional lock pieces, splashing blue like Hanni recommended, and aiming to gain tempo and then smash through with some fairly-costed bombs.

My current list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Master of Etherium
4 Esperzoa
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Razormane Masticore
2 Powder Keg
4 Trinisphere
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Tangle Wire
2 Powder Keg

sb
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Propaganda
3 Silent Arbiter
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Powder Keg
Lands: 25, Spells: 20, Crt: 14

Master of Etherium is a bomb and he has good interaction with Mishra's factory. I am also a huge fan of Esperzoa, who is at worst usually bouncing a chalice or seat of synod, and at best bouncing a chalice (to recalibrate) or a tangle wire. I tried playing Su-Chi but found him pretty underwhelming, despite his usually irrelevant ability to untap monolith. If I were to play Metalworker, I'd definitely go the staff route, and I did manage to combo out a few times in testing. Still, I think tempo and reasonably costed creatures work well together.

Can you guys think of any good creatures I'm missing - I'd like to play two more singletons in the MD Keg slot. Thanks for your feedback!

[Darkenslight]

@michaelq: I'd consider either the Helm of Kaldra or Cranial Plating - Helm to push through damage, and Plating to help one-shot with your evasives.

[jazzykat]

@ michaelq: I really like that list. I would think about dropping to 24 land and the MD kegs and putting in 3 COW. Depending on how much U you really need I would think about a singlteton Tezzeret or cutting an island or 2 for Blinkmouth Nexus.

How are the Tangle Wires in your deck? I've found them rather lackluster in Legacy but maybe they have are more relevant especially with 3sphere and wastelands.

[Hanni]

Is it just me or is Metalworker pretty underwhelming? He's 3 for a 1/2 body that doesn't do much if you don't have anything heavy in your hand. I'm more for shaving the curve, keeping traditional lock pieces, splashing blue like Hanni recommended, and aiming to gain tempo and then smash through with some fairly-costed bombs

I have two builds. One is Blue 5/3, similar to your list, and the other is a Blue Stax.

Metalworker is the entire reason to play Blue 5/3. Otherwise, the deck is just a bad version of Faerie Stompy. If the opponent doesn't answer Metalworker, he can singlehandedly help you drop your entire hand on the following turn. Metalworker gives you the explosiveness of Affinity in a deck that drops bombs like Faerie Stompy.

Not only that, but you underestimate what a 1/2 means in this deck. Between Master of Etherium and Umezawa's Jitte, Metalworker can get in there.


I tried playing Su-Chi but found him pretty underwhelming

Faerie Mechanist has been my replacement for Su-Chi. Both cost 4 mana. While Su-Chi has a bigger body, I find the flying on Mechanist can be stronger for pushing damage through, and his CIP ability keeps the deck going. I'd strongly try testing him, my consistency has gone way up because of Mechanist.

No Umezawa's Jitte? I'd much sooner run 2 Jitte's before I'd run Karn and Razormane.

I'm in a love-hate relationship with Esperzoa. Sometimes he's awesome, sometimes he's not. From the testing I did do with him, I would say that 4 is too much. You really don't wanna see him in multiples. I was testing him as a 2-of before, and that seemed to work pretty well.

---

Another interesting route is making what I call Aggro Sphere. The deck utilizes every single Sphere effect, in addition with Crucible/Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and Tangle Wire.

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MI] Crystal Vein
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
1 [US] Karn, Silver Golem

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [V09] Trinisphere
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [UL] Grim Monolith

Something along those lines. I'd really like to fit Mox Diamond, but I think Grim Monolith is stronger for the deck overall, and I'm not sure what to cut for it or if it's really necessary.

[Grollub]

@Hanni: The last MUD list, is almost my current version: -3 Trinisphere, -2 Crucible, -1 Karn, +4 Juggernaut +2 Sword of Fire and Ice. I don't really like Trinisphere in MUD, as in multiples it's a dead draw (same goes for Crucible) which the deck due to the lack of draw/manipulation cannot afford. I haven't been overly impressed by Grim Monolith and are considering going back to Mishra's Factory.

Metalworker is like the entire reason to play MUD for me, the amount of random wins by this guy alone makes his inclusion well warranted.

[Hanni]

@Hanni: The last MUD list, is almost my current version: -3 Trinisphere, -2 Crucible, -1 Karn, +4 Juggernaut +2 Sword of Fire and Ice. I don't really like Trinisphere in MUD, as in multiples it's a dead draw (same goes for Crucible) which the deck due to the lack of draw/manipulation cannot afford. I haven't been overly impressed by Grim Monolith and are considering going back to Mishra's Factory.

I edited the list. The deck needs tuned more, it's not 100% optimal.


Metalworker is like the entire reason to play MUD for me, the amount of random wins by this guy alone makes his inclusion well warranted.

Agreed. Metalworker is what makes these decks worth playing. Tapping Metalworker for 8 mana and then emptying ones hand is what makes the deck so strong. The fact that Metalworker can then turn into an attacker afterwards is just awesome when you run spells like Umezawa's Jitte and Master of Etherium, too.

[Jon Stewart]

I think if you're playing both Metalworker and Grim Monolith, it is indeed beneficial and potentially gamebreaking to atleast play a couple of Voltaic Key and Sundering Titan.

Titan is absurdly powerful, usually comes on turn three, and wins games all by itself the turn it comes out. 8 Mana is nothing for a deck that runs Metalworker, Grim Monolith and Voltaic Key.

I do wish there was some other artifiact similar to Monolith that Voltaic Key can abuse, and that can help ramp up mana into a Sundering Titan though.

Something like Thran Dynamo perhaps? But better?

Would...

4 Sundering Titan
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

Be ideal? Ridiculous amounts of mana ramp combined with ridiculously overpowered dudes seems fun atleast.

[Hanni]

At the point you start playing Thran Dynamo, Grim Monolith, and Voltaic Key, you should consider looking at the Wildfire thread. Mana + bombs means you should be doing just that: mana + bombs. Why waste time on artifact lock pieces like Smokestack or artifact creatures like Lodestone Golem, when you can be casting Wildfire, Decree of Annihilation, All is Dust, Tooth and Nail, etc.

[GoldenCid]

I feel a bit sad fr the over stimation made on monolith. None doubs on it's potential but i don't thjink that it's an auto include. The deck genrates mana in an insane manner even without him.

I liked the idea of faerie mechanist but for instance i'm trying with this list:


/ Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
4 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [10E] Juggernaut
2 [10E] Razormane Masticore / Su-Chi

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [FD] Staff of Domination
1 [ROE] All Is Dust
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte / SoFaI
1 [CNF] Banefire

// Sideboard (in construction)
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 4 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 4 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid

8 5/3 guys and 8 manlands 2/2 + sword / jitte (i don't see very well which's better) + The possiblily of comboing for banefire.
I know that my mana base does not support mechanist but still work pretty well.

Thoughts?

[Jon Stewart]

At the point you start playing Thran Dynamo, Grim Monolith, and Voltaic Key, you should consider looking at the Wildfire thread. Mana + bombs means you should be doing just that: mana + bombs. Why waste time on artifact lock pieces like Smokestack or artifact creatures like Lodestone Golem, when you can be casting Wildfire, Decree of Annihilation, All is Dust, Tooth and Nail, etc.

Where did I say anything about lock pieces. Look at what I posted...

4 Sundering Titan
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

Bombs.

Sundering Titan and Kozilek are bombs.

All is Dust is a great suggestion as well and is quite bomby. I'm just worried about getting the artifact count down too low and not being able to abuse Metalworker.

But All is Dust > Wildfire imo

I would however play Trinisphere because the card is just that good. But I think that and maybe Chalice is all the disruption the deck needs.

So inactuality, the list might look like this...

4 Chalice of the Void - Too good not to play
4 Trinisphere - Too good not to play
4 Sundering Titan
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key
2 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 All is Dust

[nodahero]

Perhaps I have missed this discussion but should we be disscussing the value of one variant of MUD over another?

For example the control shell seems really obvious

8 two mana lands
4 Wasteland
4 Chalice of the Void
12 Spheres
4 Monolith

While some of these cards are no ideal multiples... the ability to consistenly turn 1 a 3sphere seems simply busted... Your turn 1 plays with the above cards would simply be back breaking against zoo on the play.

[Jon Stewart]

ALL the variants would play Trinispheres.

There's six basic variations I think...

Red Splash

Blue Splash

White Splash

Mono Brown Small Aggro (Lodestone Golems, Su-Chis etc)

Mono Brown Stax (12 Spheres)

Mono Brown Big Mana Big Bombs (Sundering Titan, Thran Dynamo, Voltaic Key, Karn, Silver Golem, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, All is Dust)

I don't think we can establish which is the best approach till we try them all.

But I'm very optimistic about Big Mana Big Bombs.

[Grollub]

ALL the variants would play Trinispheres.
I disagree, if you're playing a mono brown version with maxed out on the small taxes (golem, sphere, thorn) Trinisphere is not really needed and considerabily less interesting.

A different route of pursuit could be something akin to the old Suicide Brown:

Creatures - 17
4 Metalworker
2 Phyrexian Colossus
3 Sundering Titan
4 Phyrexian Processor
4 Lodestone Golem

Safety/Disruption - 7
3 Crumbling Sanctuary
4 Trinisphere

Speed - 12
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dunamo
4 Voltanic Key

Lands - 22
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Dust Bowl
4 Mishra's Factory

[Jon Stewart]

I disagree, if you're playing a mono brown version with maxed out on the small taxes (golem, sphere, thorn) Trinisphere is not really needed and considerabily less interesting.

A different route of pursuit could be something akin to the old Suicide Brown:

Creatures - 17
4 Metalworker
2 Phyrexian Colossus
3 Sundering Titan
4 Phyrexian Processor
4 Lodestone Golem

Safety/Disruption - 7
3 Crumbling Sanctuary
4 Trinisphere

Speed - 12
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dunamo
4 Voltanic Key

Lands - 22
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Dust Bowl
4 Mishra's Factory

Damn, I LOVE that list. Great job. But why not play some Crystal Vein?

Do you think any of these finishers warrant a slot or two in your build?

2 Karn, Silver Golem - Makes Crumbling Sanctuary a 5/5, Procesor a 4/4, Dynamo a 4/4 and Trinisphere a 3/3
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 All is Dust

[GoldenCid]

Mono Brown Big Mana Big Bombs (Sundering Titan, Thran Dynamo, Voltaic Key, Karn, Silver Golem, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, All is Dust)

.

You forgot to mention metalworker here!! It's a powerfull ramper!!!

Edit: and how do you think you will consistently drop into battlefield without a sexy draw engige?

[majikal]

Edit: and how do you think you will consistently drop into battlefield without a sexy draw engige?
Didn't the old MUD decks use Grafted Skullcap and Ensnaring Bridge? We would need something similar to power up our Metalworkers, but Skullcap is probably bad these days unless you can dump your hand the turn you play it.

Maybe (and this is probably terrible, but I'm drunk and find it hilarious atm) Lodestone Myr + Howling Mine? Just tap the Mine with Myr on your turn, and you're good to go!

In all seriousness though, drawing cards - along with keeping creature swarms off your back - has proven to be one of the weak points of the deck. I'm currently using Horizon Canopy + Crucible of Worlds as a slow engine, and it helps, but I feel like more would be better. I'm not sold on something like Bottled Cloister because of Pridemages running rampant, and there doesn't really seem to be anything outside of Tower of Fortunes that draws a significant amount of cards. Unless you want to splash for Thirst For Knowledge anyway.

[Jon Stewart]

Geddon Stax and Dragon Stompy don't have draw engines.

If the deck is loaded with powerful gamebreaking cards, it doesn't need a draw engine.

[Vacrix]

I disagree, if you're playing a mono brown version with maxed out on the small taxes (golem, sphere, thorn) Trinisphere is not really needed and considerabily less interesting.

A different route of pursuit could be something akin to the old Suicide Brown:

Creatures - 17
4 Metalworker
2 Phyrexian Colossus
3 Sundering Titan
4 Phyrexian Processor
4 Lodestone Golem

Safety/Disruption - 7
3 Crumbling Sanctuary
4 Trinisphere

Speed - 12
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dunamo
4 Voltanic Key

Lands - 22
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Dust Bowl
4 Mishra's Factory
This list looks pretty good dude. My only question is how well does it perform against aggro? It looks like it can power out a dude pretty fast. I agree with Jon Stewart. Needs moar All is Dust. You are completely unaffected by it and its a sweeper. Might as well run it in addition to Crumbling Sanctuary.

[Maveric78f]

I disagree, if you're playing a mono brown version with maxed out on the small taxes (golem, sphere, thorn) Trinisphere is not really needed and considerabily less interesting.

A different route of pursuit could be something akin to the old Suicide Brown:

Creatures - 17
4 Metalworker
2 Phyrexian Colossus
3 Sundering Titan
4 Phyrexian Processor
4 Lodestone Golem

Safety/Disruption - 7
3 Crumbling Sanctuary
4 Trinisphere

Speed - 12
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dunamo
4 Voltanic Key

Lands - 22
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Dust Bowl
4 Mishra's Factory

I don't like the suicide part of the deck (Phyrexian shits and Sanctuary). It saves 9 slots for All is dust and more protection/combo. Well of Knowledge for instance is really a great card in such a deck (and so is staff of domination).

[majikal]

Geddon Stax and Dragon Stompy don't have draw engines.

If the deck is loaded with powerful gamebreaking cards, it doesn't need a draw engine.

You are mistaken, sir. Geddon Stax also uses Horizon Canopy + Crucible.

[vikram]

Grollub, other than the changes others posted to your list (All is Dust, Karn, Kozilek)...

The one main thing I would alter with your deck is to replace Crumbling Sanctuary with Silent Arbiter.

Silent Arbiter is fantastic versus aggro, it buys tons of time. And since that list seemed to be all about beating down with a huge Kozilek, Titan or Collasus, Arbiter's ability seems perfect for it.

[GoldenCid]

You are mistaken, sir. Geddon Stax also uses Horizon Canopy + Crucible.

I used bridge + cloister as draw engine and i was great!
The problem is a broken cloister!

Tower of fortunes looks interesting!

[nodahero]

The problem with Arbiter is that it bites it to Path and Swords... I realize the argument that it dies is usually not valid but when you are comparing card to card this needs to be noted. Your opponent cant StP or PtE a Sanctuary but they can an Arbiter... Arbiter simply has more weaknesses than Sanctuary.

[majikal]

Right now I'm trying a 12-sphere build and liking it a lot. It seems much more consistent than the aggro build I was playing before, and since I've added Smokestack back in, I get some inevitability that I lacked in the previous version.

Tested briefly against Bant Survival tonight and went 2-1... not much testing, I know, but it does give me a slight idea of how this performs against aggro strategies. The one I lost was due to a poor mulligan decision on my part as well.

Here's the list, and likely any future revisions I make will be similar:

4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
2x Razormane Masticore

4x Trinisphere*
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Tangle Wire
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Smokestack

4x Grim Monolith
4x Mox Diamond/Voltaic Key**
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
3x Horizon Canopy
1x Academy Ruins


* I like Trinisphere more than Thorn of Amethyst, because Thorn doesn't do much against aggro decks, while 3sphere still makes all their shit cost 3. Less interesting in multiples, for sure, but I think it is better suited for the current meta.

**Still back and forth on this. I like Mox Diamond because I can still cast Chalice @ 1 early in the game and not hurt myself as well as the fact that it can enable Academy Ruins, but I like Key because it can enable such explosive plays. I don't feel that there is room for both, however.

Re: Silent Arbiter - I've also considered Silent Arbiter, as well as Crawlspace, and they seem like great sideboard choices, but there are other things I'd rather have MD.

[paeng4983]

this thread again began catching my attention. :)
and here's my list:

lands
3 crystal veins
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
4 darksteel citadel
5 mountain

creatures
4 metalworker
4 loadstone golem

artifacts
3 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
3 tangle wire
4 sphere of resistance
3 bottled cloistered
3 ensnaring bridge
4 mox diamond
2 crucible of worlds

other spells
2 all is dust

what do you think of this guys?

[majikal]

this thread again began catching my attention. :)
and here's my list:

lands
3 crystal veins
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
4 darksteel citadel
5 mountain

creatures
4 metalworker
4 loadstone golem

artifacts
3 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
3 tangle wire
4 sphere of resistance
3 bottled cloistered
3 ensnaring bridge
4 mox diamond
2 crucible of worlds

other spells
2 all is dust

what do you think of this guys?
What are the Mountains for?

[Lord_Cyrus]

I'm pretty shocked nobody is considering Sword of Fire and Ice, given how much it rapes small aggro decks and provides a nice draw engine. It's a really crucial card in the Vintage builds.

Also I like Key because it provides a ton of options to the deck. But isn't 4 perhaps too many? Why not a mix with Chrome Mox if both are so good?

[paeng4983]

well, originally goblin welder was included in my list running 24 lands in which it has 5 mountains.
but eventually i cut the gobs and decided to keep the mountains.
do you have any good cards in replacement for the mountains?
:)

i'd like to control the game using artifacts that does not
need any activate abilities (those abilities that requires you to TAP or pay: and the like).

[Jon Stewart]

I was under the impression that as a rule of thumb, Jitte is better in decks without evasive creatures, and Swords are better in decks with evasive creatures. Is that not accurate?

paeng, Crystal Vein is never a bad replacement for the mountains (I'm assuming you already play Wasteland, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Mishra's Factory and/or Rishidan Port)


The problem with Arbiter is that it bites it to Path and Swords...

So does Metalworker, Lodestone Golem, Sundering Titan, Karn and Kozilek.

Considering how strong those creatures are. I would prefer if my opponent uses up his Path/StP on Arbiter if it means one of those other creatures gets to live.

I think that Arbiter costs 4 mana is a very strong pro. Plus, if you cast Sanctuary, it will take you a lot longer to kill your opponent as well which gives them a lot more time to deal with your threats while you run out of gas due to a lack of a card draw engine.

[majikal]

I'm pretty shocked nobody is considering Sword of Fire and Ice, given how much it rapes small aggro decks and provides a nice draw engine. It's a really crucial card in the Vintage builds.

Also I like Key because it provides a ton of options to the deck. But isn't 4 perhaps too many? Why not a mix with Chrome Mox if both are so good?
While I do like Sword of Fire and Ice, I'm not entirely certain what I would cut for it. Maybe Razormane? There are already so few creatures in the deck I'm not certain an equipment would be very useful.

[paeng4983]

oh yeah. right
i forgot to put the factories in.
so i think i'll just have it this
-5 mountains
+ 4 factories
+ 1 tarbernacle pendrell at vale

what you think of these changes?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

oh yeah. right
i forgot to put the factories in.
so i think i'll just have it this
-5 mountains
+ 4 factories
+ 1 tarbernacle pendrell at vale

what you think of these changes?

Hey, if you got it, flaunt it. Doesn't seem like paying for your small amount of creatures should be a problem off of Tabernacle.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Mixing all the ideas I liked, some mad wizard came up with this:


The Pwnstone

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [MI] Crystal Vein
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
2 [FD] Razormane Masticore

// Spells
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [US] Voltaic Key
3 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Razormane Masticore
SB: 3 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 3 [NE] Tangle Wire
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

Testing has been good so far, it eats Aggro, NH, and Jank pretty well. Oh and Dredge is pretty freaking easy postboard :P

[Vacrix]

Dude I'm calling you play the old school Masticore, not Razormane, or at least a split. Metalworker + Voltaic Key + Masticore wipes their board. Also, it can kill creatures that Razormane can't. Firststrike is irrelevant when you just destroy all your opponents creatures, and it has regeneration in the case that it eats burn, swinging for only 1 less power. Sure you are going to be discarding every turn. Whatevs you can just discard spare shit like extra Voltaic Keys you can't cast anyway cause you have CoTV in play @ 1, extra 3 sphere, etc.

[majikal]

Dude I'm calling you play the old school Masticore, not Razormane, or at least a split. Metalworker + Voltaic Key + Masticore wipes their board. Also, it can kill creatures that Razormane can't. Firststrike is irrelevant when you just destroy all your opponents creatures, and it has regeneration in the case that it eats burn, swinging for only 1 less power. Sure you are going to be discarding every turn. Whatevs you can just discard spare shit like extra Voltaic Keys you can't cast anyway cause you have CoTV in play @ 1, extra 3 sphere, etc.
This. Whenever I switch from Mox Diamond to Key, I also switch Razormanes to Masticores. The regeneration can be very handy in many situations (Pridemage comes to mind here), and the ability to just go nuts with Metalworker is awesome, too.

The only problem I have with it is that sometimes you just have no cards left in hand and can't make more than 4 mana. These are the situations where I like Razormane better, and the first strike is definitely a bonus.

All in all, I'm split between the two different builds and may end up running one of each.

[Lord_Cyrus]

First Strike is amazing... 5 power vs. 4 is very relevant, and the need not to make a mana investment is nice. I really don't find Regeneration that exciting when the only way he's gonna die is probably either to a Sword/Path or a Krosan Grip, neither of which you can do anything about. In my playtesting usually you force the opponent to use Pridemage already before you play one of these bad boys... IF they have the Pridemage.

All that said, if Gobbos made some huge, unsightly resurgence in the Meta, then sure, classic Masticore is better. Otherwise you will have a hard time convincing me he's worth it. 1 more mana in this deck is really not bad, and most of the time I'm wanting to play Lodestone Golem anyway.

Can't sleep... The robots will eat me...

[Jon Stewart]

Yes objectively, Razormane is a stronger creature.

But I think the argument is that in this particular build of the deck, with absurds amounts of mana to play with thanks to Metalworker, Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key and the way these cards all interact with each other, traditional Masticore may indeed prove to be quite broken, singlehandely wiping out your opponents entire board in just a turn or two.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Usually, in my experience, the major fight occurs over lock pieces in the first few turns, not over creatures. Chalice + 3Sphere + wasteland lock quickly reduces decks such as Zoo to about 0-1 options and leads to scoopage. But yes, if you are concerned about "flooding" aggro decks, like Goblins, then Mr. Machinegun is indeed pretty damn strong.

Overall this deck is a huge nightmare for most traditional aggro decks, especially postboard. There are only a few ways for them to productively interact with your deck, and 1 Qasali Pridemage ain't gonna cut it. They need at least 2 - and they better draw them in a timely fashion.

[Vacrix]

Usually, in my experience, the major fight occurs over lock pieces in the first few turns, not over creatures. Chalice + 3Sphere + wasteland lock quickly reduces decks such as Zoo to about 0-1 options and leads to scoopage. But yes, if you are concerned about "flooding" aggro decks, like Goblins, then Mr. Machinegun is indeed pretty damn strong.

Overall this deck is a huge nightmare for most traditional aggro decks, especially postboard. There are only a few ways for them to productively interact with your deck, and 1 Qasali Pridemage ain't gonna cut it. They need at least 2 - and they better draw them in a timely fashion.
Funny how you mention pridemage after saying how bad regeneration is. If you notice, QPM doesn't say anything about 'can't be regenerated'. Thats pretty bomb isn't it?

Also, Zoo packs a lot of burn. If you don't already have a lock piece in play, or it got blown up, he might be able to aim Bolt, Bolt at your dude. Its not out of the ballpark. It happens to me all the time when I play MUD against Zoo.

Are you serious about 4 and 5 power being a big difference??
...
For stax?
Stax is notorious slow anyway. Winning one turn slower is rather underwhelming considering you can literally plaguewinds your opponent. Hell you can kill Reanimators creatures, at least the ones that don't have Shroud. With the right shit in play you can kill Emrakul. Don't tell me this doesn't make you creme your pants.

[whienot]

Is there any reason not to play 4x Rishadan Port in the 12 sphere versions?

[Lord_Cyrus]

Vacrix, my point was that they are usually not pointing Pridemage at our creatures...

I do see the power of Masticore. I said that repeatedly. Given how much people trying to shame me for prefering Razormane him I'll test it.. Eitherway, Aggro is a matchup you generally look forward to. You have to be kind of asleep at the wheel not to take the match, especially if you board in the Tangle Wires and Ensnaring Bridge to slow them down to the point of being obnoxious.

EDIT: Okay, so Masticore does allow you to crap on Aggro pretty hard in game 1 and makes it almost impossible for them to win short of Swording him. I'll admit when I was wrong. So what do we all think about this deck's status? Possible Tier 1? What are the really bad matchups now that combo is seriously hurt? How easy will it be for other decks to hate out?

[majikal]

Is there any reason not to play 4x Rishadan Port in the 12 sphere versions?
My reason is that I don't own any. lol

Although it would come down to either Ports or Horizon Canopy, and I really like having a draw engine, even if it is slow.



EDIT: Okay, so Masticore does allow you to crap on Aggro pretty hard in game 1 and makes it almost impossible for them to win short of Swording him. I'll admit when I was wrong. So what do we all think about this deck's status? Possible Tier 1? What are the really bad matchups now that combo is seriously hurt? How easy will it be for other decks to hate out?
I'm not sure if the deck is what I would call Tier 1. It still has a lot of consistency problems, although adding Sphere of Resistance has greatly reduced that issue for me. The good news is that it seems to have a pretty decent matchup against things like Bant, NH, and Counterbalance decks, and obviously it eats combo decks for breakfast. Fast aggro seems to be problematic so far, and if midrange decks like Rock get popular we're in trouble. The first problem can be solved by running Silent Arbiter in the SB. Not sure what to do about midrange though.

You could probably win your local tournament with it, but in its current incarnation I think it needs some work before it can take on something like a GP or even a 5k.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Really Majikal? I have to say I'm a bit surprised at you having issues with Zoo. Maybe I'm just lucksacking every game I play, and I need to find some decent Zoo pilots. But really so far it's typically gone like this:

Win the die roll:

Turn 1: Ancient Tomb > Grim Monolith > Trinisphere... I have Wasteland and a Golem in hand, drawing the Crystal Vein to play the Golem, and now he needs five lands to get into the game. Yeah, that doesn't happen.

On the draw:

Zoo's Turn 1: Break a fetch for Taiga > Play Nacatl

My Turn 1: City of Traitors> Grim Monolith > Voltaic Key> Untap Grim for 4 mana > Smokestack. He didn't have a Pridemage and was unable to recover after I wasted his land the next turn. I stabilized at a healthy 14 life and drew into (Razormane) Masticore. Masticore ate his face.

If we then replace Razormane with Original Masticore, we now (functionally) have 5+ Smokestack effects. Combined with Chalice = 1 and spheres AND wastelock, this is such a beating on Zoo's ability to stay in the game. Sword of Fire and Ice only improves things further, and the cards from the sideboard (All is Dust, Tangle Wire, Ensnaring Bridge) are devastating for any fast creature deck. Am I missing something crucial here?

[majikal]

Really Majikal? I have to say I'm a bit surprised at you having issues with Zoo. Maybe I'm just lucksacking every game I play, and I need to find some decent Zoo pilots. But really so far it's typically gone like this:

Win the die roll:

Turn 1: Ancient Tomb > Grim Monolith > Trinisphere... I have Wasteland and a Golem in hand, drawing the Crystal Vein to play the Golem, and now he needs five lands to get into the game. Yeah, that doesn't happen.

On the draw:

Zoo's Turn 1: Break a fetch for Taiga > Play Nacatl

My Turn 1: City of Traitors> Grim Monolith > Voltaic Key> Untap Grim for 4 mana > Smokestack. He didn't have a Pridemage and was unable to recover after I wasted his land the next turn. I stabilized at a healthy 14 life and drew into (Razormane) Masticore. Masticore ate his face.

If we then replace Razormane with Original Masticore, we now (functionally) have 5+ Smokestack effects. Combined with Chalice = 1 and spheres AND wastelock, this is such a beating on Zoo's ability to stay in the game. Sword of Fire and Ice only improves things further, and the cards from the sideboard (All is Dust, Tangle Wire, Ensnaring Bridge) are devastating for any fast creature deck. Am I missing something crucial here?
Not so much Zoo as swarms of things. There's really not a very good answer to Turn 1 Lackey when you're on the draw, and Aether Vial is also pretty bad news, and Elves. Maybe I'm just getting unlucky and facing all the monocolored swarm decks on MWS in a row. Drawing multiple Ancient Tombs every game doesn't help either.

Then again, maybe my problem is that I'm testing on MWS. lol

[Sims]

For what it's worth, as someone who played food chain in 1.5 when wMUD was fully powered in the format, i can say that turn 1 Lackey IS a problem for the deck if you can't keep it from connecting. Dropping Siege-Gang they not only race, but they out permanent you, which makes smokestack less effective with the amount of time it takes to ramp. Without splashing you don't have access to things like Prison/Propaganda, Supression Field, etc. to slow down some of those decks until you can establish a lock, so you need to make sure you've got something to stop the early swarms. You draw a slow hand and even zoo can roll you with the turn 1 nacatl, turn 2 pridemage opening. Get in a few times with a 4/4 cat and disenchant the trini to unload burn on your end step can be harsh times.

In that regard I think I prefer RazorCore to ClassicCore becuase of the first strike. Easily droppable turn 2, he will single handedly eat almost any ground pounder in the format while keeping swarm numbers down during your draw step. In that regard if you're going to play this deck at a large event, i strongly urge you to up the count to at least 3 RazorCores. You don't need 4 but you really want to see one early in the swarm matchups and he MVPs there.

I'll add more to this when i get home from work, but these lists look like strong starts to a renewing of the Mono-Brown archtype... now I just need to get working on some Welder Mud.

[Lord_Cyrus]

@Majikal: Elves? Ouch. Yeah, swarm aggro causes some problems for us, pre-board at least. Swarm =/= Zoo, however. Zoo's manabase is also much more vulnerable to attack.

@Sims: Careful! Did you see how I got slammed for insisting on Razormane? J/k lol. Both have merits. ClassicCore is more useful against goblins/swam. Razormane might be better against Zoo, where his FS makes him a more effective wall to save life until you can lock them down or rape their mana. But zoo seems more favorable to begin with.

[majikal]

@Majikal: Elves? Ouch.
That's what I said! If you get even a remotely slow start you are dead in the water against them. Luckily it's not a very popular archetype currently. Seems rampant on MWS lately though. :\


Yeah, swarm aggro causes some problems for us, pre-board at least. Swarm =/= Zoo, however. Zoo's manabase is also much more vulnerable to attack.
Yeah, I know. I never said Zoo anywhere. Not sure where you got that. :eyebrow:

[Lord_Cyrus]

@Majikal: I saw fast aggro... I read Zoo from that lol. No worries. I fucking hate elves, I wish I could run Perish in this deck to euthanize all the little bastards. Oh well, I guess I have to make do with All is Dust. ;) Still, that kind of thing will pretty much always wreck MUD. Not much anybody can do about it unless they print some sorta colorless Engineered Plague. Given how much love they show to Tribal, chances of that are a lot less than zero.

Don't worry though, not likely to pop up past round 1 of any tournament you would care about.

[GoldenCid]

I'm pretty shocked nobody is considering Sword of Fire and Ice, given how much it rapes small aggro decks and provides a nice draw engine. It's a really crucial card in the Vintage builds.


That's really correct. SoFaI is a great card maybe in aggro metalstax even better than jitte! WTF?? Yes it is!
Stax has no evasive critters (Juggernaut and golem) so we need the initial 7/5 big guy provided by the sword. Non to mention the extra damage and card.

On the other side...i've been testing tezz stax, aggro metalstax and wilfire (red stax) and realized that aggro stax is the only one that is not eaten by a gaddock teeg and a resolved iona.

[danpo]

It seems like All Is Dust could solve the problem with swarm aggro, assuming you stick it fast enough. Some have talked about mainboarding it, others at least bringing it in. What's the experience been? Frankly I find it hard to imagine not wanting it in most match-ups.

Also, I imagine when trying to stabilize against aggro, Jitte seems preferable over Sword of Fire and Ice. Thoughts? What's the rationale here?

[Lord_Cyrus]

Yes, All is Dust does solve some of the issues with Swarm and is definitely playable in this deck at 7. Hell it's playable on turn 2 off Metalworker. But Goblins isn't common enough to merit it in the main yet. Against anything playing counterspells it's kinda poor though - usually I'd rather another lock piece or a Lodestone Golem.

Jitte... Hum, stabilize? Well that's not really how it goes. See this is a very wierd deck - an Aggro/Prison deck. If you want to gain absurd amounts of life you could just play Staff of Domination and combo out with Metalworker. That might still be the 'best' win-con for this deck from a pure power-level assessment, although it is much more vulnerable to various hate cards like P. Needle.

The point is that this deck stabilizes by having the appropriate lock cards in play to prevent the opponent from doing anything effective. Mana denial helps immensely with this, that's why I play so much of it in my decklist (although I think 4 Rishadan Port might be a little overkill). The deck then wins by having a "trump" creature in play that simply eats their guys and their life, much life a big, nasty, walking Abyss. Jitte doesn't really help with this part at all.

Sword of Fire and Ice has a couple unique components to it that really make it ideal for Aggro Stax; it makes your guy bigger right now rather than later - this is key because the deck often can't afford to lose the winning robot to combat. It needs to be bigger and badder right now. SoFI does this. The other part is the card drawing. Say I have a Lodestone Golem in play, but I need to find a Chalice = 1 quickly, or risk losing to a topdecked Path to Exile. If I only have Jitte, I might still be screwed, despite the huge power of Jitte, because I can't find the lock piece I need. SoFI allows me to draw the cards I need to dig and find the missing prison piece and win the game. Not to mention that Jitte is Legendary and commonly played, opening up the possibility that the opponent can just play Jitte first and screw you. To me, that's not a good solution.

Oh well. I probably wrote more about that issue than I needed to. The main thing I'm trying to get across is that this deck functions (in part) like a big puzzle - the faster you put the pieces together, the greater your chances of winning. Take a look at the sample games I played against Zoo a few posts up - I won those games because I was able to get 2 or more lock pieces into play within the first 2 turns of the game. If you can do this with Stax, you will win a large percentage of the time.

This is also why Grim Monolith's unbanning is so key to making Stax competitive - we already had all the right 'puzzle pieces' to put together a crushing lockdown, but we didn't have the speed required to do it fast enough to compete. Getting from 2 to 3 mana on the very first turn is so huge in this archetype that I think Stax is now on the way to being a top-tier deck.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Whoa-dang... I think this spunky little fucker has potential:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106657&d=1277467427

At first blush I like him, although obviously he requires a bit of an aggro approach, so it won't be right for everyone's style.

[Combo Winter]

Here is an experimental Grow a crusher version that I plan to test on mws as crusher was pretty good in type one for a while. And it is a lot more explosive than any other build of mud despite you have a lot less lock peices you can take advantage of the nuts metal worker openings and kill the opponent in the small opening thorn, chalice at one, or tangle wire gives you. Though I still like the red version that i posted a few pages back though.

4 archbound ravager
4 metal worker
4 archbound crusher
4 master of etherium
4 frogmite

4 grim monolith
4 chalice
4 thorn
2 cranial plating
4 tangle wire

4 set of the synod
4 darksteal citadel
4 tomb
3 city
3 island
4 factory

[Kangaxx]

Whoa-dang... I think this spunky little fucker has potential:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106657&d=1277467427

At first blush I like him, although obviously he requires a bit of an aggro approach, so it won't be right for everyone's style.

Might be nice with Triskelion.

[Volrath]

Might be nice with Triskelion.

Pinging for 1 a turn, 2 if you have a Key is not the most broken play i can imagine.
Triskelion has no place in Legacy, since we don't need to ping welders or bob's asap.

[lordofthepit]

Turn 1: Ancient Tomb > Grim Monolith > Trinisphere... I have Wasteland and a Golem in hand, drawing the Crystal Vein to play the Golem, and now he needs five lands to get into the game. Yeah, that doesn't happen.

I don't think Trinisphere and Golem work that way. For example, it would only cost 2G to play a Wild Nacatl or a Goyf under those two lock pieces, but it would cost 3G to play a Krosan Grip. Unless I'm missing something.

[Volrath]

Trinisphere is always aplied last, so a sphere and a golem would make a goyf cost +1 and then the rest of the cost is upped to meet the sphere's requirements.

[Vacrix]

For what it's worth, as someone who played food chain in 1.5 when wMUD was fully powered in the format, i can say that turn 1 Lackey IS a problem for the deck if you can't keep it from connecting. Dropping Siege-Gang they not only race, but they out permanent you, which makes smokestack less effective with the amount of time it takes to ramp. Without splashing you don't have access to things like Prison/Propaganda, Supression Field, etc. to slow down some of those decks until you can establish a lock, so you need to make sure you've got something to stop the early swarms. You draw a slow hand and even zoo can roll you with the turn 1 nacatl, turn 2 pridemage opening. Get in a few times with a 4/4 cat and disenchant the trini to unload burn on your end step can be harsh times.

In that regard I think I prefer RazorCore to ClassicCore becuase of the first strike. Easily droppable turn 2, he will single handedly eat almost any ground pounder in the format while keeping swarm numbers down during your draw step. In that regard if you're going to play this deck at a large event, i strongly urge you to up the count to at least 3 RazorCores. You don't need 4 but you really want to see one early in the swarm matchups and he MVPs there.

I'll add more to this when i get home from work, but these lists look like strong starts to a renewing of the Mono-Brown archtype... now I just need to get working on some Welder Mud.
I can see the advantages of Razormane but I don't think that it works quite as well as ClassicCore here. First Strike is rather irrelevant with all the mana you have available to wipe your opponents board. You might as well take advantage of Metal Worker. Once its out, you can probably drop your entire hand.. Or you can drop Masticore and completely rape your opponents side of the board. At the very least, I think it deserves a split. Plague winds is too enticing to ignore. Also, his regeneration dodges Burn and QPM that Zoo might throw at him.

[extarbags]

So here's a card: Eater of Days. Yeah, I know, but: Tangle Wire? Smokestack? I'm testing it as a two-of in my more aggressive build and it seems possibly decent so far.

[GoldenCid]

So here's a card: Eater of Days. Yeah, I know, but: Tangle Wire? Smokestack? I'm testing it as a two-of in my more aggressive build and it seems possibly decent so far.

Ufff...4 mana 9/8 flying trample....but in change of 2 turns??? I think that duplicant, masticores and su-chi are more rentable.

[Hanni]

I can see the advantages of Razormane but I don't think that it works quite as well as ClassicCore here.

In order to wipe out a board of Goyfs and such, you need to have an ideal situation. Metalworker needs to be in play without summong sickness, and you need to have enough cards in hand to make a relevant amount of mana. Considering more often than not, Metalworker would either be emptying your hand of its contents, or your hand would be destroyed from Masticores drawback, it's going to be a difficult scenario to generate enough mana to burn through 5 toughness dudes (10 mana). If you have enough mana to do that (10 mana), you'd be better off running bigger and better spells (like Eldrazi fatties and such).

How often are you finding yourself ramping up to 10+ mana? If you're doing that with any sort of consistency, then you should be running All is Dust and Eldrazi fatties instead of looking into regular Masticore.

Masticore is meant to handle x/1 and x/2 guys, particularly of the Goblins and Elves kind. He's not an adequate answer to bigger small aggro like Zoo and Merfolk, and he is completely outclassed by big aggro like Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary.

Razormane Masticore is still good against the swarm aggro like Goblins and Zoo, albeit not nearly as good, but he's great against Zoo and Merfolk, and his 5/5 first strike body allows him to compete with big aggro like Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. Slap a SoFI on him to get a 7/7 first strike, or an active Jitte to make him a virtual 9/9 first strike, and you can clearly see how this would dominate the red zone. This is also independant of insane draws where you can generate 10+ mana a turn, since Razormane only costs 5, and 5 more mana max the next turn (3+2 with SoFI) to equip.

[Nizmox]

Mixing all the ideas I liked, some mad wizard came up with this:


The Pwnstone

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [MI] Crystal Vein
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
2 [FD] Razormane Masticore

// Spells
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [US] Voltaic Key
3 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Razormane Masticore
SB: 3 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 3 [NE] Tangle Wire
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

Testing has been good so far, it eats Aggro, NH, and Jank pretty well. Oh and Dredge is pretty freaking easy postboard :P

I've been testing out your build on workstation and it definitely seems good.
Razormane Masticore has been pretty average in the matches I have played (but I've not had to face heavy aggro).
I feel that Tangle Wire is a better option than Trinisphere. It seems to be better at stalling the board while you lay out your lock components.
Also I often find I have plenty of Mana, but nothing useful to do with it. I'm not exactly sure what the solution is, I wonder if it's worth trying Sigil of Distinction? (It's played as a 1 of in Faerie Stompy builds).

Just a few thoughts, so many different builds of MUD making an appearance its going to take alot of testing to find the best.

EDIT: I also like that Smokestacks + Crucible can win you the matches where your opponent gets the upperhand.

[GoldenCid]

It seems to be better at stalling the board while you lay out your lock components.
Also I often find I have plenty of Mana, but nothing useful to do with it. I'm not exactly sure what the solution is, I wonder if it's worth trying Sigil of Distinction? (It's played as a 1 of in Faerie Stompy builds).


Althoug it's suboptimal equipment i can admit it's ability of absorb great amounts of mana with manaless equip cost!

[Chill79]

control list to thought at:

Lands(22):
4*Ancient Tomb
4*City of Traitors
4*Wasteland
4*Rishadan Port
4*Mishra's Factory
2*Blinkmoth Nexus

Creatures(10)
4*Lodestone Golem
4*Metalworker
2*Karn, Silver Golem


Lock(11)
4*Tangle Wire
4*Smokestack
3*Trinisphere

Utility(17):
4*Voltaic Key
4*Grim Monolith
3*Crucible of Worlds
3*Staff of Domination
3*All is Dust

Staff+worker is just nuts,draw whole deck or make your mishra/nexus 20/20 for the kill :tongue:

Cards to think of from old budde deck:
Temporal Aperture
Mishra's Helix

[Pingu]

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
2 Wasteland
5 Island
4 Seat of the Synod

Spells:
3 Defense Grid / Sphere of Resistance (still not sure who's better)
4 Trinisphere

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Eater of days

4 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key
3 Upheaval

It needs much more work but i dont have oponents to test it properly (workstation players give up when it starts with trinisphere or worker and can't handle him).
Still want to put urza's Masticore.
Your opinions.

Thanks

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Anyone tried welder+mindslaver?
I think I remember vintage artifact control playing them.

[Grollub]

Anyone tried welder+mindslaver?
I think I remember vintage artifact control playing them.
Aye.

Mindslaver isn't as backbreaking on it's own in Legacy, and Welder got a gigantic bull's eye on his forehead that and it is too slow without Vintage's power and tutor effects. In Legacy you're in most cases better off just welding in a fatty; in which case you're better off running the more cost effective fatties and/or acceleration so your gameplan doesn't rely on a 1/1 creature. Metalworker and mana artifacts work alot better.

If you want to really abuse Welder with Mindslaver you need some sort of way to put the needed artifact in your 'yard, which means blue - and then you're in the domain of a multicolored build which makes you lose alot of stability and weakens your 1 card combo - Metalworker.

Currently testing:

Creatures - 17
4 Metalworker
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 Sundering Titan
4 Phyrexian Processor
4 Lodestone Golem

Safety/Disruption - 7
3 Crumbling Sanctuary
4 Trinisphere

Speed - 12
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dunamo
4 Voltanic Key

Lands - 22
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Dust Bowl
4 Mishra's Factory


Processors are sick, since they make black minions and not artifacts -- they lawl all over Pridemages. A fast processor is usually game over, combines very well with Voltanic Key too, would like to change Sanctuary into a more aggresive card; but it's the only card I've found that can help in the cases where Zoo or Goblin gets a more broken start than me - Masticore and All is Dust are both under consideration, but I fear the 'core is too slow to have any impact on the game and All is Dust ditto plus it doesn't help against burn too (which is usually how Zoo kills me).

I tried Karn, but wasn't really impressed as he did little to nothing on his own - I'd rather just pour excess mana into Processors. I am however considering dropping a Dust Bowl for a random Karn, as it can be a sick topdeck and 22 lands are starting to hate me, meh.

[SamuraieauxMega]

All is Dust is seriously busted in this deck. You do not need Goblins to run rampant, this is inherently good against any deck besides the mirror, or the case where an opponent has Emrakul. I'm speculating to run 3 throughout the 75, as the only nonpermanent card. Sphere of Resistance is necessary. Smokestack is necessary. This archetype can mostly reflect Vintage builds now in Legacy, where SoLoMoxen and Workshop is banned, but Sphere effects are more potent due to decks running cheap spells and few lands. It also has the added freedom of using other lock parts that are too expensive in Vintage, like Sundering Titan, and, what I've been looking at for a supplemental Stack effect/ lock piece, Possessed Portal. The card is nuts: it's a Smokestack like effect, on top of preventing draw for the rest of the game. Assuming you have Crucible, you can kill them with any Creature you have out, and very easily with a Factory.

[Grollub]

All is Dust is seriously busted in this deck. You do not need Goblins to run rampant, this is inherently good against any deck besides the mirror, or the case where an opponent has Emrakul. I'm speculating to run 3 throughout the 75, as the only nonpermanent card. Sphere of Resistance is necessary. Smokestack is necessary. This archetype can mostly reflect Vintage builds now in Legacy, where SoLoMoxen and Workshop is banned, but Sphere effects are more potent due to decks running cheap spells and few lands. It also has the added freedom of using other lock parts that are too expensive in Vintage, like Sundering Titan, and, what I've been looking at for a supplemental Stack effect/ lock piece, Possessed Portal. The card is nuts: it's a Smokestack like effect, on top of preventing draw for the rest of the game. Assuming you have Crucible, you can kill them with any Creature you have out, and very easily with a Factory.

That'd be Stax from the sounds of it, and not MUD tho. ;-)

Personally I haven't been too impressed with Possssed Portal in Legacy, it has in my limited testing with it mostly been a win-more card.

[Nizmox]

That'd be Stax from the sounds of it, and not MUD tho. ;-)

Personally I haven't been too impressed with Possssed Portal in Legacy, it has in my limited testing with it mostly been a win-more card.

I agree with you that alot of the decks people are posting are more like Stax, but i'd argue that it's not really possible to build MUD in legacy, and that this is the next closest thing (Aggro builds with Master of Etherium are definitely possible, but they aren't really MUD either).

I've been doing quite a bit of testing with the deck (albeit on Workstation, my actual cards have yet to arrive) but I think most of what Samurai has said is true. There are cards i've already decided are must haves in the deck, and i'm trying to fine tune the flexible slots.

My opinion on must have cards...
// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
+6 Lands - I have been running 4 Rishadan Port + 2 other Lands (I've tried Ghost Quarters, Crystal Vein and Dust Bowl, not sure what I prefer as yet).

// Creatures
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem

// Spells
4 Grim Monolith
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds (A must include with 4 Wastelands and 4 Factories)
3-4 Voltaic Key (I feel 3-4 is the right number, without them, Grim Monolith is not worthwhile and Metal Worker loses some potency)
2-4 Smokestack (I feel this has to be included because of how well it combos with Crucible, but I'm not sure of the best number)
4 Chalice of the Void (Definitely required. Your best method of protecting Metalworker and Golem)

This leaves somewhere between 6-9 slots depending on your preference.

I recommend 4 Tangle Wire, I prefer this to Trinisphere , since Golem and Metalworker are anti-synergistic with 3sphere.
For the other slots I've tried Phyrexian Processor, Razormane Masticore, Duplicant (to copy Golem). Not really sure what I like best, but I wanted to fill them with some form of kill condition, given 4 Golem's + 4 Factories, is pretty threat light.

Aether Vial i've found can be a real problem for the deck if they get it in to play. Cards like Chalice, Sphere, Tangle Wire (if you run it) can become redundant, leaving you many dead cards. I've found sideboarding in Pithing Needle in Chalice's place is a good defence (and it doesn't play nicely with Chalice typically).

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Duplicant is more a removal card then a copy card, if you want to copy the golem run sculpting steel.
I did some testing with various versions on mws, I have to say I do not like 3sphere either, tranglewire, chalice and sphere of resistance proved stronger for me.
Blue for thoughtcast (synergetic with loadstone and sphere of resistance), thirst for knowlage and master of etherium proved to be a good addition. I added in mox diamond, functions well for me.

[edit]the list I'm currently tinkering with:
// Lands
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
2 [DS] Sundering Titan
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium

// Spells
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
3 [MR] Sculpting Steel

I somehow need to increase the island count though...

[Windux]

17 Lands is really a low number with Mox Diamond.

I played Mizzium Transreliquat with Time Vault a long time ago and loved the Mizzium.
The flexibility of it, changing every turn to whatever you want was great (I played Equip as well and more beater).

[Lord_Cyrus]

I agree with you that alot of the decks people are posting are more like Stax, but i'd argue that it's not really possible to build MUD in legacy, and that this is the next closest thing (Aggro builds with Master of Etherium are definitely possible, but they aren't really MUD either).

I've been doing quite a bit of testing with the deck (albeit on Workstation, my actual cards have yet to arrive) but I think most of what Samurai has said is true. There are cards i've already decided are must haves in the deck, and i'm trying to fine tune the flexible slots.

My opinion on must have cards...
// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
+6 Lands - I have been running 4 Rishadan Port + 2 other Lands (I've tried Ghost Quarters, Crystal Vein and Dust Bowl, not sure what I prefer as yet).

// Creatures
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem

// Spells
4 Grim Monolith
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds (A must include with 4 Wastelands and 4 Factories)
3-4 Voltaic Key (I feel 3-4 is the right number, without them, Grim Monolith is not worthwhile and Metal Worker loses some potency)
2-4 Smokestack (I feel this has to be included because of how well it combos with Crucible, but I'm not sure of the best number)
4 Chalice of the Void (Definitely required. Your best method of protecting Metalworker and Golem)

This leaves somewhere between 6-9 slots depending on your preference.

I recommend 4 Tangle Wire, I prefer this to Trinisphere , since Golem and Metalworker are anti-synergistic with 3sphere.
For the other slots I've tried Phyrexian Processor, Razormane Masticore, Duplicant (to copy Golem). Not really sure what I like best, but I wanted to fill them with some form of kill condition, given 4 Golem's + 4 Factories, is pretty threat light.

Aether Vial i've found can be a real problem for the deck if they get it in to play. Cards like Chalice, Sphere, Tangle Wire (if you run it) can become redundant, leaving you many dead cards. I've found sideboarding in Pithing Needle in Chalice's place is a good defence (and it doesn't play nicely with Chalice typically).


It's amusing that by using those guidelines, you quickly arrive at something looking like my build, maybe -Trinisphere, +Tanglewire. But I tried to just play all the best cards in correct numbers with a good curve... :laugh: Anyhow, I think something like that is probably the best MUD list you can have in Legacy, with about 6-9 flex slots as you said. This is completely different, of course, from a controlish build which would play All is Dust in the main, more Smokestack abuse, and a higher curve. Both of these decks can probably happily succeed in Legacy, but they are quite different. We need another thread to discuss Stax control.

If these decks become prevalent in any decent numbers, btw... Sculpting Steel becomes a real house. It might be good enough to play in these decks already, but it shines most in the mirror. My 2 cents for now...

EDIT: There is a thread for Brown Control now. People who want to discuss slower, more controllish versions should post there.

[DragoFireheart]

How does MUD handle crap like Energy Flux and what not once the meta starts to adapt?

[overseer1234]

How does MUD handle crap like Energy Flux and what not once the meta starts to adapt?

sphere's and golems + tangle wire and wasteland/port make reaching enough mana to cast energy flux kind of hard...

other then that: first this deck needs to become good enough for people to start boarding energy fluxes before you start bothering with possible solutions...

[SamuraieauxMega]

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Master of Etherium
2 Sundering Titan

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Pithing Needle

4 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Diamond

2 Stroke of Genius
4 Thoughtcast

3 Voltaic Key
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dread Statuary
1 Island

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duplicant
2 Staff of Domination

Not sure about the SB choices. Propaganda can be played, this could be combined with CounterTop, and Trinket Mage could be played also fetching Key... There are a lot of ways to take this archetype, like in Vintage, and the switchable slots makes this deck difficult to prepare for, but in turn is difficult to prepare.

[Volrath]

I too went for teh blue route and ended up with this,

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
6 [US] Island (1)

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
1 [VI] Chronatog

// Spells
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [HOP] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [ALA] Tezzeret the Seeker
1 [FD] Staff of Domination
3 [TE] Meditate
4 [US] Smokestack
1 [TSP] Chronatog Totem
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 1 [5E] Meekstone
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FNM] Bottle Gnomes
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 2 [IN] Wash Out
SB: 1 [TE] Static Orb

I'ts much more staxx like when i began cutting golems for more smokeys and started playing with meditate:P.

T3 tezz is busted and can find you what you need, keep you mana open under a tangle wire and can act as a kill-con.

[Nizmox]

It's amusing that by using those guidelines, you quickly arrive at something looking like my build, maybe -Trinisphere, +Tanglewire. But I tried to just play all the best cards in correct numbers with a good curve... :laugh: Anyhow, I think something like that is probably the best MUD list you can have in Legacy, with about 6-9 flex slots as you said. This is completely different, of course, from a controlish build which would play All is Dust in the main, more Smokestack abuse, and a higher curve. Both of these decks can probably happily succeed in Legacy, but they are quite different. We need another thread to discuss Stax control.

If these decks become prevalent in any decent numbers, btw... Sculpting Steel becomes a real house. It might be good enough to play in these decks already, but it shines most in the mirror. My 2 cents for now...

EDIT: There is a thread for Brown Control now. People who want to discuss slower, more controllish versions should post there.

I started with testing your build as my base (as I said on page 7). But credit where credit's due, it is your deck and a deck I want to build myself.

The impression I got from your post is you put the list together without much testing (from the mad wizard quote)? But I have honestly tried to change many things in the deck but the build you've come up with is very hard to fault and there's not much I think should actually be changed. My only real definitive change as you said was 3sphere for Tanglewire and changing the mana base slightly. The flex slots I am struggling to find the best cards, but I think it's matchup dependent. Razormane is a solid choice vs any Aggro deck but i'd side it out against any control deck.

Just something to mention for anyone who's looking at building the deck, or any artifact based deck for that matter, I suggest buying up the cards now. I really think that there will be a breakout tournament result with some form of artifact deck, it's a very strong deck. It's certainly far stronger and more consistent than my White Stax deck. And if there isn't a strong result before Scars of Mirrodin, there may well be new cards that pushes the deck over the top.

EDIT: If i'd actually read the first post, I'd have realised that my build is very very similar to that also.

[SamuraieauxMega]

I consider it more of a spectrum between Aggro and Control. Where do you draw the line? Is the metric based on number of creatures? Number of lock pieces? The strategy is to disrupt the opponent's ability to cast spells while attacking with an undercosted, high-powered Artifact Creature. TMD has one thread for the MUD/MonoBrown Stax archetype (albeit with similar arguments over semantics) that I feel respects this spectrum, and that The Source should as well. Although it is already obvious, I would like to clarify that I am only expressing my personal opinion.

[GoldenCid]

I love the 1000s list you are posting...but what about side?

Can it be refined?? For metal (mono brown stax) i'm testing this:

2 Duplicant
3 Defense grid
4 Ensnaring bridge
3 Tormod's crypt
3 Powder keg

Remaining cards:

Damping matrix
Razormane masticore
Zuran orb

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I did some more testing vs a friend of mine via mws against some tier 1 decks (dredge, reanimator, cb, goblins, canadian thresh, survival). I almost always lost.
All decks we tested had a solution to the metalworker. Sundering titan rotted in my hand. Metalworker adds to the inconsistency of stompy deck types, you can hardly rely on him in a meta with so much creature hate and without conterspells. Having blue draw spells did let me do wicked things with him on the rare occasions where he survived, I figured the best idea to abuse him is to be able to lay down tons of cards, not some very expensive ones wich otherwise rot in your hand.
Master of etherium is auto 4 of for aggro builds imho, he proved pretty strong.

[GoldenCid]

All decks we tested had a solution to the metalworker. Sundering titan rotted in my hand. Metalworker adds to the inconsistency of stompy deck types, you can hardly rely on him in a meta with so much creature hate and without conterspells.

That's the problem my friend. We don't have to play around metalworker. He's just fuel for our deck. We know that stax can add consistently 4-6 without worker. So play a strong basis around this amount of mana is the key. Aggro stax fits perfect:

4 Lodestone
4 Juggernaut
2 Su-Chi
4 Metalworker

[Nizmox]

I did some more testing vs a friend of mine via mws against some tier 1 decks (dredge, reanimator, cb, goblins, canadian thresh, survival). I almost always lost.
All decks we tested had a solution to the metalworker. Sundering titan rotted in my hand. Metalworker adds to the inconsistency of stompy deck types, you can hardly rely on him in a meta with so much creature hate and without conterspells. Having blue draw spells did let me do wicked things with him on the rare occasions where he survived, I figured the best idea to abuse him is to be able to lay down tons of cards, not some very expensive ones wich otherwise rot in your hand.
Master of etherium is auto 4 of for aggro builds imho, he proved pretty strong.

Metal workers certainly not a requirement to make the deck function, he is just a means to dump your hand onto the board if your opponent doesn't immediately destroy him. There are other means to accomplish the same outcome with two mana lands and Grim Monolith (even better with Voltaic Key). In my testing, wherever possible I will always play Chalice first, prior to playing Metalworker and in these cases, he's very well protected because so few decks run removal that isn't 1CC.

[Al-ucard]

I agree on this 52 must have cards, so looking this list I see the lack of answers/control cards and then finishers so we could put 6 answers cards and 2 finishers

Answers/Control cards:
4 Tangle Wire
2 All is Dust

Finishers cards:
2 Sundering titan

So what about this list?

22 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
2 Ghost Quarters

10 Creatures
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Sundering titan

28 Spells
4 Grim Monolith
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Voltaic Key
3 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
2 All is Dust

[Volrath]

Metal workers certainly not a requirement to make the deck function, he is just a means to dump your hand onto the board if your opponent doesn't immediately destroy him. There are other means to accomplish the same outcome with two mana lands and Grim Monolith (even better with Voltaic Key). In my testing, wherever possible I will always play Chalice first, prior to playing Metalworker and in these cases, he's very well protected because so few decks run removal that isn't 1CC.

This.

Drop chalice first, metalworker second and most of the time you have 1 or 2 spare mana to negate dazes so fows are your only consern.

[Radiant]

I seem to have missed something crucial, because the last lists here raised some questions to me.

Why do you prefer Sphere of Resistence over Trinisphere?
Is it because of the cheaper casting cost, so that it can come down T1 consistently without Moxen/Spirit Guides?
Besides that, I think Trinisphere is still the stronger card, because it doesn't affect your own CC3+ cards.

Chalice of the Void and Voltaic Key in the same deck?
I admit that a huge part of the reason to play this deck is the unbanning of Grim Monolith, which is only good with Voltaic Key (besides being a one-shot ramp). But other than Grim Monolith Metal Worker is the only artifact in most of the lists that really likes becoming untapped. Chalice is strong, so is the Key, which makes Grim Monolith playable.
Wouldn't it be a better idea to ditch Chalice (don't hit me!) and instead try to prison the opponent under the sphere effects with Smokestack, for the Staxx version that is?

[hyperchord24]

I think the idea in stax is that with the Sphere, you can afford the extra cost because you can generate massive amounts of mana, while your opponent most of the times cannot. That is how you make Sphere asymmetrical. the 2 cost of Sphere is so much better than 3 (if you're only going to play one or the other).

[SamuraieauxMega]

This type of list definitely looks better, I haven't had a test session in yet, but in theory, Mono Brown seems to be the best. I'm convinced that you need 4 Chalice to protect the fragility of this. If this deck type becomes popular, Shatterstorm effects could show up in Sideboards. What do we do then? GoldenCid has a good point and that's why I think people should post their SB lists, even if they are just theoretical. A deck is 75 cards, and we seem to only be talking about 60.

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Sundering Titan

4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire
2 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle

4 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Diamond

3 Voltaic Key
3 Crucible of Worlds

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Rishadan Port
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dust Bowl
1 Dread Statuary

2 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Powder Keg
3 Moonglove Extract
2 Ensnaring Bridge

[Icy]

I confess I didn't read the entire thread, but some recurring cards in the decklists provided, choices I believe are incorrect, made me want to contribute.

I've done some testing on MUD since the unbanning of Grim Monolith and came to some conclusions. Hope you guyze find it relevant:

- Grim Monolith is an additional option for the first turn Trinisphere or second turn 5cc bomb of your choice (mine is Razormane Masticore). It doesn't necessarily needs Voltaic Key as a sidekick, it can be a powerful resource playing solo (actually, it is more efficient that way). Yes, it is true, they played amazingly well together in Tinker. But this is NOT Tinker (since we don't have the sorcery as a legal card in the format): MUD is less powerful and less explosive, and being so it needs to focus on building a more solid ground before bashing.

- The answer is to use Chalice of the Void, and its interaction with Voltaic Key is not feasible. I thought I could go around this issue during the game, but a first-turn Chalice for 1 is preferable most times (like, 99,9% of them), and then you have a dead card in your hand for the remainder of the match. But wouldn't it be better if we could replace the Key for something else that is actually useful during the match? I think so.

- Unless you are playing heavy spells such as Sundering Titan or whatever crappy Eldrazi monster that never hits the table, Metalwoker is somewhat unnecessary. Actually, in most of my testing against real archetypes (and not the five-color-zubera-combo you find on MWS channels), the fatso proved itself useless. 1/2 with no protections whatsoever is way too vulnerable, it enters the battlefield with a target on his forehead. In theory you can back it up with Chalices, Trinispheres and Golems, but things work a little bit different during the actual game. Being so, it wouldn't be interesting to play big-ass creatures, since your only reliable way to make them see play is not reliable after all. Stick to the traditional mana curve ranging from 3 to 5 and you'll be fine. WStax have been doing it for years without Monolith, why wouldn't you? You are not Steve Jobs, don't try to pull shiny gadgets that doesn't do shit, stick with effectiveness.

- Keeping in Mind that Metalworker just sits there, Thorn of Amethyst will screw you more often than help you. Just imagine the number of aggro-oriented archetypes that will arise from the death of ANT and Reanimator. You can dodge (to a point) the burning/removal from Zoo and the counters from Merfolk, I'll give you that. But don't blame your rage on me when the Goblin player cycles his Gempalm for your Metalworker, puts on a troll-face the size of Texas and stomps your ass with two 14/2 pilledriver that came into play for 1R, since your Thorn of Amethyst was unable to stop them. Chalices, Trinispheres and Golems do the job quite well.

- Tezzeret is the most powerful card (n)ever played. I had, dunno, maybe 100 games testing MUD variations, and I can count on my fingers the number of times Tezzeret hit the table as a 2nd~3rd turn 5cc bomb, early enough for the auto-win factor to take place. UU is way too much colored mana to handle.
- Last, but not least, Sculpting Steel is AWESOME. It’s your 5th~7th everything in the deck. Need extra Tangle Wires? Here they are. Extra Golems? No problem. Extra Masters of Etherium? Tah-dah!

My list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Academy Ruins
2 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Darksteel Citadel

4 Lodestone Golem
2 Razormane Masticore
4 Master of Etherium

4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Tangle Wire
3 Sculpting Steel
4 Thirst for Knowledge

SB:
2 Razormane Masticore
4 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
4 Rushing River
3 Defense Grid/Crucible of Worlds (not quite sure yet, need to see towards what the meta is going to shift from now on)

That’s it. Hope I helped. If you have any comments or critics, feel encouraged to express them.
Cheers

[Nizmox]

I seem to have missed something crucial, because the last lists here raised some questions to me.

They are fair questions but there are explanations.



Why do you prefer Sphere of Resistence over Trinisphere?
Is it because of the cheaper casting cost, so that it can come down T1 consistently without Moxen/Spirit Guides?
Besides that, I think Trinisphere is still the stronger card, because it doesn't affect your own CC3+ cards.

There are a couple of reasons I don’t play Trinisphere.
1. It’s not as good as it is in White Stax because without running Mox Diamond the only way you can play this first turn is Tomb/City > Grim Monolith > Trinisphere (which is not a good play, since you can't do much next turn). I feel that sphere effects + tangle wire + wastelands lock the board down very well without redundant cards like Trinisphere.
2. It is really anti-synergistic with sphere effects. After 1 sphere comes down it’s only affecting 1CC spells and after 2 it’s completely redundant. Given that the list runs Chalice to counter 1CC spells I just don’t think it’s worth playing.



Chalice of the Void and Voltaic Key in the same deck?
I admit that a huge part of the reason to play this deck is the unbanning of Grim Monolith, which is only good with Voltaic Key (besides being a one-shot ramp). But other than Grim Monolith Metal Worker is the only artifact in most of the lists that really likes becoming untapped. Chalice is strong, so is the Key, which makes Grim Monolith playable.
Wouldn't it be a better idea to ditch Chalice (don't hit me!) and instead try to prison the opponent under the sphere effects with Smokestack, for the Staxx version that is?

Chalice and Voltaic Key is more difficult to anser.
I hate having cards in a deck that have anti-synergy, but I feel that both are essential in the deck.
* Chalice is a requirement. As stated in my previous post, it protects metalworker, but it also protects Golem (which is one of the best cards in the deck). Golem in particular is vulnerable to all the 1CC removal in the format (i.e. STP, PTE, Bolt, Chain Lightning etc…) and Chalice alone protects him (fulfilling the same function it does in Aggro Loam and Faerie Stompie).
I really would not advocate dropping Chalice because of the above reasons and because it’s one of the best cards in the format. That said, in some matchups like decks playing Aether Vial, if I was not on the play I’d be tempted to board it out in place of Pithing Needle.
As a side note too, when you have so much mana available it’s very easily possible to drop chalice at 2 or 3 which is an added bonus.
* Voltaic Key is also a requirement because without it, Grim Monolith is not worthwhile. Voltaic Key allows for such explosive plays and continues to provide tonnes of mana in later turns with Monolith. But you are right in saying it doesn’t do much for any other card in the deck beyond Monolith. Metal worker typically provides enough mana on its own without Voltaic Key.

I guess you also need to think about the possible lines of play, in that you want to land either…
Voltaic Key + Grim Monolith OR Chalice @ 1 + Metal Worker.
Also any hand where you don’t have a Tomb/City your turn 1 play is normally going to be Key.

Suprisingly, I’ve very rarely found having both in the deck an issue

[GoldenCid]

There are a couple of reasons I don’t play Trinisphere.
1. It’s not as good as it is in White Stax because without running Mox Diamond the only way you can play this first turn is Tomb/City > Grim Monolith > Trinisphere (which is not a good play, since you can't do much next turn).


Why do you think that mox diamond is not included in the deck?? Or your just talking about 12 sphere version??

[Nizmox]

Why do you think that mox diamond is not included in the deck?? Or your just talking about 12 sphere version??

Mox Diamond would definitely be in the list if I wasn't running either Metalworker or Grim Monolith. But Mox Diamond in addition to these is just too much mana. You could test it in place of Metalworker, but I think it would end up being worse.

Also a few people have mentioned the 12 sphere version, but it's really the 8 sphere version + Tangle Wire.
The 12 sphere version would include thorn of amethyst but in Legacy it's a pretty bad card to run in MUD because it does nothing to Aggro (Zoo) and punishes you (in Vintage it's good because not many decks run creatures).

[Hanni]

- Unless you are playing heavy spells such as Sundering Titan or whatever crappy Eldrazi monster that never hits the table, Metalwoker is somewhat unnecessary. Actually, in most of my testing against real archetypes (and not the five-color-zubera-combo you find on MWS channels), the fatso proved itself useless. 1/2 with no protections whatsoever is way too vulnerable, it enters the battlefield with a target on his forehead. In theory you can back it up with Chalices, Trinispheres and Golems, but things work a little bit different during the actual game. Being so, it wouldn't be interesting to play big-ass creatures, since your only reliable way to make them see play is not reliable after all. Stick to the traditional mana curve ranging from 3 to 5 and you'll be fine. WStax have been doing it for years without Monolith, why wouldn't you? You are not Steve Jobs, don't try to pull shiny gadgets that doesn't do shit, stick with effectiveness.

I cannot understand why I am constantly seeing people in this thread dismissing Metalworker.

Yes, he is a magnet for removal. That's because if the opponent does not answer him before you get an untap step, you will likely win the game. Either the opponent has an immediate answer, or you bury them in tempo. Metalworker to this deck is like Goblin Lackey to Goblins.

[Rood]

I cannot understand why I am constantly seeing people in this thread dismissing Metalworker.

Yes, he is a magnet for removal. That's because if the opponent does not answer him before you get an untap step, you will likely win the game. Either the opponent has an immediate answer, or you bury them in tempo. Metalworker to this deck is like Goblin Lackey to Goblins.

This post is full of relevance. One turn of a Metalworker in play normally spells the end for your opponent. I cannot agree more with Hanni Metalworker is one of the cards in MUD I could never see cut.

[GoldenCid]

I cannot understand why I am constantly seeing people in this thread dismissing Metalworker.

Yes, he is a magnet for removal. That's because if the opponent does not answer him before you get an untap step, you will likely win the game. Either the opponent has an immediate answer, or you bury them in tempo. Metalworker to this deck is like Goblin Lackey to Goblins.

Agree. If worker survives 1 turn is unproblable to loose the game.

[Nizmox]

I agree with what everyone has said about Metalworker.

I know someone has mentioned it already, but has anyone tested Winter Orb? It seems like it would be very effective in combination with sphere effects but I'm not sure in what slot I would fit it.

[Al-ucard]

This evening I will try with this list:

23 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Ghost Quarter

10 Creatures
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
2 Razormane Masticore

27 Others
4 Chalice of the void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
3 Winter Orb
3 Smokestack
3 Damping Matrix
2 All is Dust

60 Total

[majikal]

This evening I will try with this list:

23 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Ghost Quarter

10 Creatures
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
2 Razormane Masticore

27 Others
4 Chalice of the void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
3 Winter Orb
3 Smokestack
3 Damping Matrix
2 All is Dust

60 Total

This is very close to what I am considering at the moment. Damping Matrix is just amazing against so many decks right now!

[Hanni]

It's probably obvious, but I just wanted to point it out anyway.

For those who have posted decklists on this thread that either include Master of Etherium, or are heavy aggro versions, I created a Blue 5/3 thread to organize discussion about that specific approach. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18061-Blue-5-3-(Artifact-Aggro)

This thread is all over the place with many different Aggro and Stax variations that it's hard to comprehend and develop an archetype from. This thread seems more like a discussion and post-my-decklist thread, and I think those of you who feel very strongly about a certain approach (like Jon Stewart was about mana + bombs), creating a new thread for that specific approach seems more productive. Just sayin.

Anyways, since I haven't posted my decklist in this thread for a while, this is my current decklist:

Blue 5/3
Artifact Aggro

Lands (24)
4 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Blinkmoth Nexus

Creatures (18)
4 Metalworker
4 Master of Etherium
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Faerie Mechanist
2 Razormane Masticore

Spells (18)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond

Sideboard (15)
2 Razormane Masticore
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Smokestack
4 Tormod's Crypt


This has been my favorite approach so far. It's has been very consistent, and I've been winning alot of games with it. It's basically a midrange aggro/control deck, so it should be no suprise that it has fairly solid matchups across the field. It's easily hated out, but I think Stax decks are still far enough under the radar that most people won't be packing cards like Energy Flux or Serenity in their sideboards anytime soon.

[GoldenCid]

U stax needs removal right now!

[dillonkbase]

So i have been trying to figure out how to make effective use of welder and monolith, specifically having relevant artifacts in the graveyard,

I like stax here to reset wires or monoliths, but then it hit me


What about gamble?

sure its a random discard but when you have that many artifacts who cares.

play diamond and crucible to keep lands in the field or on the board, and duplicant to fight critters.

the biggest question I have for my building is sphere of resistance vs trinisphere? I'm wondering what people are thinking?

so a list....

4 City of traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
2 Barbarian ring

4 grim monolith
4 Mox Diamond
3 crucible of worlds

4 goblin welder
4 gamble


4 tangle wire
3 smokestack
2 sphere of resistance
2 trinisphere

2 duplicant
1 Karn, silver golem
4 lodestone golem
1 Triskelion

Please let me know what you think

[jazzykat]

This post is full of relevance. One turn of a Metalworker in play normally spells the end for your opponent. I cannot agree more with Hanni Metalworker is one of the cards in MUD I could never see cut.

Metalworker is a 4 of that, often ends the game if activated within the first 3-4 turns. Do not run less than 4.

[majikal]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=107031&d=1278301032

Not sure if want...

On one hand, Maze of Ith is an effect I would love in this deck but can't play because it doesn't make mana. On the other hand, 4 mana to activate is sooooo bad.

Still, there's not really anything else with this kind of effect that is playable in monobrown, so it's worth testing at least...


Edit: Some more thoughts on the card:
It obviously doesn't play well with Winter Orb, so I think the two would probably be mutually exclusive unless we had some way to abuse the Orb, like Lodestone Myr or something.

[paeng4983]

i used MUD for the last 3 legacy tournaments here, and it did not do well.
yes, the idea/ theory of locking your opponent with golem, spheres, cotv
is good, but in actual game it's not that impressive as what we are talking here.
yes we have that 1st 2nd turn sphere of resistance, cotv at 1 and/ or trinisphere
but that just it. MUD dies most of the time against aggro deck who utilize mid-range
strategies.

also, the idea of putting crystal veins is not a good move. in your 1st turn,
sacrificing crystal veins just to drop your sphere of resistance
or doing a cotv at 1 or dropping grim monolith then trinisphere- is not a good choice,
why? there's a probability that the same lock piece will lock you. lossing an opening
mana just for that 1st turn lock is not advisable.

most of us here is trying to fit the newly unbanned card grim monolith and it's sidekick
key. i've read icy's post and i agree to it. let us try not to be greedy with
early turn trinisphere, lock something here. what we
really need is to build a solid ground before going for the win.

another thing, all is dust just sits most of the time. without metalworker or the key-grim
combo on your table, all is dust is a big dust sitting in your hand. i mean, i wish it could
had been an ensnaring bridge or tangle wire to control the board.

i'll just revert back to what i used before grim got unbanned. welder mud.
just my two cents.
*cheers
:tongue:

[majikal]

i used MUD for the last 3 legacy tournaments here, and it did not do well.
yes, the idea/ theory of locking your opponent with golem, spheres, cotv
is good, but in actual game it's not that impressive as what we are talking here.
yes we have that 1st 2nd turn sphere of resistance, cotv at 1 and/ or trinisphere
but that just it. MUD dies most of the time against aggro deck who utilize mid-range
strategies.

also, the idea of putting crystal veins is not a good move. in your 1st turn,
sacrificing crystal veins just to drop your sphere of resistance
or doing a cotv at 1 or dropping grim monolith then trinisphere- is not a good choice,
why? there's a probability that the same lock piece will lock you. lossing an opening
mana just for that 1st turn lock is not advisable.

most of us here is trying to fit the newly unbanned card grim monolith and it's sidekick
key. i've read icy's post and i agree to it. let us try not to be greedy with
early turn trinisphere, lock something here. what we
really need is to build a solid ground before going for the win.

another thing, all is dust just sits most of the time. without metalworker or the key-grim
combo on your table, all is dust is a big dust sitting in your hand. i mean, i wish it could
had been an ensnaring bridge or tangle wire to control the board.

i'll just revert back to what i used before grim got unbanned. welder mud.
just my two cents.
*cheers
:tongue:
What was the list you were running? I think the general consensus has been that All Is Dust is at best a sideboard card, and that you need to focus more on the lock pieces.

[paeng4983]

What was the list you were running? I think the general consensus has been that All Is Dust is at best a sideboard card, and that you need to focus more on the lock pieces.

here's what i used:

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 crystal vein
4 darksteel citadel
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factories

4 metalworker
4 loadstone golem

2 crucible of worlds
2 staff of domination
4 trinisphere
1 all is dust
4 sphere of resistance
4 chalice of the void
3 voltaic key
4 grim monolith
4 ensnaring bridge

SB:
3 jester's cap
2 razormane masticore
3 tormod's crypt
2 faerie macabre
2 dumping matrix
1 all is dust
2 thorn of amethist

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

here's what im planning to use for this weekend's tournaments

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factories
7 mountain

3 metalworker
4 loadstone golem
3 goblin welder

3 trinisphere
2 crucible of worlds
4 sphere of resistance
4 mox diamond
3 tanglewire
3 smokestack
4 chalice of the void
3 ensnaring bridge
3 bottled cloister

SB
3 jester's cap
2 razormane masticore
4 tormod's crypt
1 faerie macabre
2 thorn of amethist
3 dumping matrix/ winter orb

i'd prefer the latter build because it has a lot of ways to lock your opponent.
what you think majikal?

[majikal]

I definitely feel like that first list isn't very focused. Too many 1- and 2-ofs. That doesn't really fly in a deck with no card-drawing power.

Here's what I arrived at after some more testing today.


---Creatures (10)---
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
2x Razormane Masticore

---Lock Pieces (22)---
4x Trinisphere
4x Tangle Wire
4x Smokestack
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge

---Acceleration (4)---
4x Grim Monolith

---Lands (24)---
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Rishadan Port
4x Some other land, maybe Eldrazi Temple for AIDs out of the side.

I also want to fit in a Tabernacle.

You may notice the lack of Mox Diamond. This is because in a colorless deck like this it really isn't needed. Grim Monolith enables 3-drops on turn 1 just as well, but without having to discard a land, which had actually been an issue for me in testing. This way you get smoother land drops and don't have to rely so heavily on Crucible just to play your spells. Also Monolith can ramp you into ridiculous turn 2 plays if you're in a match where you can afford not to do something turn 1, plus it has great synergy with Smokestack.

So far in testing it destroys blue decks and combo decks like they're not even there. Big Zoo can be a coinflip game one, depending on who goes first and whether they can remove Ensnaring Bridge, but post-board Damping Matrix can take care of Pridemage and Knight of the Reliquary, and extra Razormanes clean house, so it's not really that bad. Goblins seems to be the same story. If you go first and lock them out of Aether Vial, you will probably win.

Still not sure what my full sideboard will contain, but here are some things I'm considering:

1-2x Razormane Masticore
3-4x Damping Matrix
2x All Is Dust
4x Tormod's Crypt
Xx some other shit that I'm undecided about.
Powder Keg?
and my friend suggested Caltrops for the Goblins/wee man aggro matchup, which is hilarious.


All in all, I'm still not certain if I would take this to Columbus, but the more I tweak it the better its chances look.

[jazzykat]

@majikal: Sweet list. Have you tried to squeeze in winter orb. It makes tanglewire and trinisphere even nastier?

[majikal]

@majikal: Sweet list. Have you tried to squeeze in winter orb. It makes tanglewire and trinisphere even nastier?
I tested with it some but never found it useful, surprisingly. Also it got in the way of my Tangle Wires, which kind of blows. I found myself having to tap artifacts that wanted to stay untapped to do any good, which kind of breaks the one-sidedness that you get with Tangle Wire in this deck. If I did manage to squeeze it back in, it would be as a 2-of for the late game where it might be better, and then probably only out of the sideboard against control decks.

[gobblor]

I am curious as to why Staff of domination isn't like an auto include in these types of decks. Doesn't it just win the game if you have a metal worker out, besides even without the worker it functions fairly good because of all the double lands we have.

[Volrath]

I definitely feel like that first list isn't very focused. Too many 1- and 2-ofs. That doesn't really fly in a deck with no card-drawing power.

Here's what I arrived at after some more testing today.


---Creatures (10)---
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
2x Razormane Masticore

---Lock Pieces (22)---
4x Trinisphere
4x Tangle Wire
4x Smokestack
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Ensaring Bridge

---Acceleration (4)---
4x Grim Monolith

---Lands (24)---
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Rishadan Port
4x Some other land, maybe Eldrazi Temple for AIDs out of the side.

I also want to fit in a Tabernacle.

You may notice the lack of Mox Diamond. This is because in a colorless deck like this it really isn't needed. Grim Monolith enables 3-drops on turn 1 just as well, but without having to discard a land, which had actually been an issue for me in testing. This way you get smoother land drops and don't have to rely so heavily on Crucible just to play your spells. Also Monolith can ramp you into ridiculous turn 2 plays if you're in a match where you can afford not to do something turn 1, plus it has great synergy with Smokestack.

So far in testing it destroys blue decks and combo decks like they're not even there. Big Zoo can be a coinflip game one, depending on who goes first and whether they can remove Ensnaring Bridge, but post-board Damping Matrix can take care of Pridemage and Knight of the Reliquary, and extra Razormanes clean house, so it's not really that bad. Goblins seems to be the same story. If you go first and lock them out of Aether Vial, you will probably win.

Still not sure what my full sideboard will contain, but here are some things I'm considering:

1-2x Razormane Masticore
3-4x Damping Matrix
2x All Is Dust
4x Tormod's Crypt
Xx some other shit that I'm undecided about.
Powder Keg?
and my friend suggested Caltrops for the Goblins/wee man aggro matchup, which is hilarious.


All in all, I'm still not certain if I would take this to Columbus, but the more I tweak it the better its chances look.

Could Silent Arbiter be an option?, It's great vs zoo, ichorid and well, nearly everything aggro based.

My list atm:

// Lands
1 [MI] Crystal Vein
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
1 [UD] Masticore
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [UD] Metalworker
1 [10E] Razormane Masticore

// Spells
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [US] Smokestack
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
3 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FD] Silent Arbiter
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [MR] Damping Matrix
SB: 2 [10E] Razormane Masticore
SB: 2 [5E] Winter Orb (has been soso so far.)

I'm not sure about the canopy's, but i always like to have a way to draw cards.
Maybe -2 lands + 2 crystal ball.

[majikal]

I am curious as to why Staff of domination isn't like an auto include in these types of decks. Doesn't it just win the game if you have a metal worker out, besides even without the worker it functions fairly good because of all the double lands we have.
Staff is good in theory, but in reality it's far too situational. You have to have it + 3 other artifacts in your hand + Metalworker in play (and unsick) to get any use out of it, and it's just terribly slow by itself. I mean, sure, if it goes off you will probably win, but the same can be said about active Metalworker + 3 or more artifacts in your hand. You don't even need the Staff to cement your victory at that point. It's better just to run more lock pieces so you reduce your amount of poor topdecks.


Could Silent Arbiter be an option?, It's great vs zoo, ichorid and well, nearly everything aggro based.
I completely forgot to mention this guy! I keep considering him for my sideboard but never get around to testing him. It seems good on paper, although I do worry about him eating Path. Another card I've been considering that fulfills a similar role is Crawlspace. I'll do some more testing this weekend and post my findings.

[GoldenCid]

Staff is good in theory, but in reality it's far too situational. You have to have it + 3 other artifacts in your hand + Metalworker in play (and unsick) to get any use out of it, and it's just terribly slow by itself. I mean, sure, if it goes off you will probably win, but the same can be said about active Metalworker + 3 or more artifacts in your hand. You don't even need the Staff to cement your victory at that point. It's better just to run more lock pieces so you reduce your amount of poor topdecks.


This is unacceptable to me. Let's see:

http://i29.tinypic.com/bfrm1y.jpg

Off course it has a combo utility but its other abilities even without metalworker are useful. In my aggro stax it lets me to attack with golem or juggernaut and the untap then to block. At worst you can tap an opponent's critter or gain some life. Indeed i found the untap ability very useful specially on juggernaut. Its a card i found very very usefull. Maybe because i play a different version of mud with much more aggresiveness than yours.

[clavio]

What do you guys normally board out for your damping matrices?

[majikal]

Depends on the matchup. Sometimes you don't want Razormane, sometimes you don't want Tangle Wire... just depends.

Anyway, I won't be adding any more to the discussion, as months of testing have only confirmed that this deck is too inconsistent to compete at any kind of large event. Probably decent for small, local metas though.

[kusumoto]

Seems like there has been a lot of mentioning of colors in this thread. MUD means no colors. There are other threads for white and blue and whatever other sorts of decks people have been talking about here. This does look like the best thread for MUD though.

I'm necroing this because I didn't see another thread for it more recently.

With the new Phyrexian Revoker I think we got a tool to give this deck another shot. It allows us to easily shut off Vial and that is one of the big problems I have had with this deck in the past. Turn one Chalice one, turn two revoker on vial seems great against tribal.

Thoughts?

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Ive been testing the deck a ton lately and have some conclusions.
1. We stomp aggro so hard. Wurmcoil/Hellkite/Arbiter/All is Dust/Ratchet Bomb/Chalice is so good.
2. If the opposing deck plays Show and Tell, we just scoop. Thats a problem.
3. Wurmcoil is so damn sick. I drop it on ppl and they laugh only to get stomped by deathtouchy lifelinky awesome.

Heres the list I use for reference
// Lands
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [SOM] Steel Hellkite
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
2 [DS] Sundering Titan
3 [FD] Silent Arbiter
1 [ROE] Artisan of Kozilek

// Spells
3 [ROE] All Is Dust
3 [M11] Voltaic Key
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [UD] Thran Dynamo
2 [10E] Sculpting Steel

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Silent Arbiter
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 4 [V09] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

[Nekrataal]

There is a dedicated thread for this deck however it also is somehow a MUDDY deck:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19382-MUD-Stompy

[kusumoto]

I was under the impression that this thread was about MUD stax.

That is only the vintage port. That means it has to run lock pieces. It's a prison deck.
If this thread has lost it's direction perhaps it's time for a new one that specifically covers Vintage to Legacy MUD. That is, brown stax.