article breaking threw optimizing legacy

[obituary 95]

here is a artcle on the legacy banned and restricted list that i found on channelfirerball.com

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/breaking-through-optimizing-legacy/
happy reading

[denial]

breaking threw optimizing legacy

wtf does that even mean ?

[majikal]

What a terrible article.

Hermit Druid? Really? Do we really need more degenerate combo enablers in the format? The last time this was proposed I tested a Hermit Druid deck that won pretty consistently on turn 1 or 2. With Pact backup. Shit is bonkers, leave it banned!

Black Vise is probably safe, but it's unfun, and that's a factor.

Grim Monolith is probably safe as well, and it's fun, so I say let it come off. It's nowhere near as busted in Legacy as it was in Extended with Tinker.

Land Tax? Never. I have enough pain suffering through Top turns. Fuck Land Tax.

Dragon should stay banned as well because it enables a deck that can arbitrarily cause draws, and nobody wants to go to game 5 in a match.

Illusionary Mask? Who cares? It sucks now. Unban it. Or leave it banned because it's confusing and doesn't do anything anywhere near what the printed wording says.

Earthcraft is iffy. I think it's probably too dangerous if used in an Enchantress shell. Who needs angel tokens when you get infi squirrels at instant speed? It might even be useful in a Lands shell as an alternate win. Legacy does not need that currently.

[MMogg]

I hate to say a terrible article, because I think more Legacy articles should be encouraged, but that said, old topic is old. I've only been coming to the Source regularly for less than a year and even I'm already tired of discussing these same unbannings. The problem is that it's 100% speculative since no one can really be sure what impact an unbanning would have. I think most of us can agree that Entomb, Dream Halls and Metalworker were all successful in not degenerating. Sure, Reanimator is the real deal, a tier 1 contender, but it didn't warp the whole format. Prior to the unbannings, for sure you'd have people on both ends of the spectrum: doomsayers claiming it's too crazy to unban and naysayers who think it will be ok. In the end, it's all speculative and real world impacts cannot be easily predicted.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I played against an Italian running Earthcraft Elves in Legacy on MWS. After letting him know it was banned about ten times, I played against him with every deck in my arsenal (not EVERY, but still painstaking nonetheless) and won with only Landstill. I am bad with ANT, but come the hell on! Earthcraft can GTFO. The deck would literally cost $150 and fucks the shit out of a lot of the decks in Legacy.

[denial]

I played against an Italian running Earthcraft Elves in Legacy on MWS. I played against him with every deck in my arsenal and won with only Landstill.


http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/2051/wrong18.jpg

[Meekrab]

The fact that the first comment recommends unbanning Skullclamp leads me to believe I don't need to read this article.

[whienot]

I agree with Majikal on all points.

His Hermit Druid analysis is amusing. A deck with no basics gets hurt by Back to Basics and Price of Progress? Sure......HD would likely only have 2 lands in play AND would probably have artifact acceleration. Druid would be rediculous.

I'd looooove to see Illusionary Mask come off, but it's current wording and the tournament implications of having to keep track of colors and amounts used to hide the castig costs would be a logistics nightmare.

Black Vise seems ok until someone drops 2 or 3 first turn. Hahaha, maybe we could finally break Artificer's Intuition.

[Pastorofmuppets]

The fact that the first comment recommends unbanning Skullclamp leads me to believe I don't need to read this article.
LEAVE CFB ALONE! THOSE IDIOTS KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO!

In all seriousness, people really suck at Legacy on other forums.

[Aggro_zombies]

I hate to be the Writer's Defender guy here, but what the hell.

Earthcraft is one of those Entomb-type cards where the arguments can go either way but the only way to find out which ones are right is to actually unban it. Enchantress and Elves stand to benefit the most, which seems completely fine to me; the former because it's pretty anemic and is fair in many ways, and the latter because it's a green aggro deck that wouldn't run Tarmogoyf.

Hermit Druid is probably fine. I mean, ask yourself: is it really better than Reanimator? It loses to all the same graveyard hate, gets randomly hurt by tempo strategies (which are sorely underpowered right now), and is almost completely dependent on a 1/1 with a tap ability to win. If you can't hate that into submission, you're probably doing it wrong. Cephalid Breakfast is unplayable, and has been for years - and this card might actually make it a legit option again.

The rest are cards that have already been discussed to death, and would probably see almost no play anyway. I mean, yeah, there would be that one asshat who thinks it's funny to make the Dragon deck just to go to game 7 every time, and the one douchebag who makes Tax-Rack mono-white control, but neither of those decks are even remotely close to being good. You want to find three basic lands next turn? Sure, I'll pay :g: and make a 3/3. Go.

[jrsthethird]

(quoted topic title)

wtf does that even mean ?

If you can't even spell/capitalize the article you're referencing correctly, you probably shouldn't be posting it on other boards.

We have a huge topic that gets argued in circles about this, we don't need other threads for it. For the love of Jesus, close this one.

[obituary 95]

wtf does that even mean ?

that is the tital of his artical, in fact he gives reasoning on why he called the artical that in like the first paragraph .

[Aggro_zombies]

that is the tital of his artical, in fact he gives reasoning on why he called the artical that in like the first paragraph .
It's spelled "article," not "artical." And "title," not "tital."

It's also spelled "through," not "threw."

[clavio]

It's spelled "article," not "artical." And "title," not "tital."

It's also spelled "through," not "threw."

It's down the highway, not across the street

[Rune]

I hate to be the Writer's Defender guy here, but what the hell.
Hermit Druid is probably fine. I mean, ask yourself: is it really better than Reanimator? It loses to all the same graveyard hate, gets randomly hurt by tempo strategies (which are sorely underpowered right now), and is almost completely dependent on a 1/1 with a tap ability to win. If you can't hate that into submission, you're probably doing it wrong. Cephalid Breakfast is unplayable, and has been for years - and this card might actually make it a legit option again.


Agreed, it doesn't really seem that insane. There are infinite hate cards for this strategy besides just counterspells and creature removal, although the latter becomes irrelevant if you Entomb for an Anger of give Hermit haste in some other way, but then it's not exactly a 1-card combo anymore. If this is too powerful for Legacy, then so is ANT - a deck that can often kill with protection on turn 2 and doesn't really depend on either permanents or the graveyard.

[majikal]

Agreed, it doesn't really seem that insane. There are infinite hate cards for this strategy besides just counterspells and creature removal, although the latter becomes irrelevant if you Entomb for an Anger of give Hermit haste in some other way, but then it's not exactly a 1-card combo anymore. If this is too powerful for Legacy, then so is ANT - a deck that can often kill with protection on turn 2 and doesn't really depend on either permanents or the graveyard.
It's not a question of "Is it better than ANT?". It comes down to whether or not Legacy needs a multitude of turn-one combo decks. In my opinion it does not. Storm variants are fine, because they add some flavor to the game, don't require too many hoops to jump through in order to hate on them, and can pretty easily shit on the pilot, so you can't just pick the deck up and win with it.

The Hermit Druid deck is just flat out stupid. It has access to free tutors for its combo piece, and Entomb for Anger makes it go off that turn. Outside of Leyline of the Void, graveyard hate does not really do much. It's like Flash in a way, because you essentially have to go first, mulligan into all your hate, and hope they can't play around it. And here is where you run into a problem. Three or four pieces of hate aren't anywhere near enough to consistently stop this deck. So you have to either pack your sideboard full of hate, thereby making your game worse against every other deck, or you have to play blue.

Here's a sample decklist:

4x Hermit Druid
4x Summoner's Pact
4x Entomb
3x Narcomoeba
4x Bridge from Below
4x Dread Return
2x Sutured Ghoul
1x Flame-kin Zealot
2x Anger
4x Pact of Negation
2x Lord of Extinction
4x Lotus Petal
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacomb
3x Badlands
3x Taiga

This is nowhere near optimized, and it still goes off pretty consistently turn one or two. Faerie Macabre will not stop this deck. Two might, but you have to have both of them in your hand at the beginning of the game, because you will not have time to dig for a second. The only thing that will consistently stop this deck is Leyline of the Void, or first turn Tormod's Crypt assuming that you go first and that optimized versions of this deck don't start packing answers to it (like entomb for Ancient Grudge). Even blue will have problems unless they have access to double-FoW, due to the inclusion of Pact of Negation (or Unmask, depending on how you build it).

[majikal]

Seriously? This is what's causing the sky to fall? Druid is safe, get over it...

EDIT: For emphasis you need in your starting seven:

1 Fetch (for B/G)
1 Entomb
1 Hermit Druid/Pact
1 Free Black/Green
1 Free Green
1 Free Source

And you're only protection is pact of negation?
Did you miss the part where it says that the list is nowhere near optimized?

It's not like it's unbeatable. Not even Flash was unbeatable. The problem comes from the availability of too many different types of fast combo in the format stretching sideboard options too thin. If you pack enough hate to consistently beat the Hermit Druid deck, you leave yourself completely open to some other archetype. If you pack hate for regular combo decks and everything else, you leave yourself open to Druid combo. And then there's the problem that Aggro decks get left completely out in the cold...

This essentially warps the format towards fewer viable decks, and that is unhealthy.

[DrJones]

I would like to see Sol Ring allowed. The problem is that it would probably require banning Lion's Eye Diamond.

[denial]

that is the tital of his artical, in fact he gives reasoning on why he called the artical that in like the first paragraph .

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9422/feyesbleedinm853249a.gif

[dahcmai]

This thread makes my head hurt on multiple levels.

[Forbiddian]

The article was shit. I stopped reading after intro paragraph.


Legacy has been shown to be one of the most popular formats amongst players even after it essentially lay dormant for quite a few years. Lately there has been a lot of discussion regarding reprinting some cards to make the format more affordable, as well as talk of a new format that might just step in and take over for Legacy. While speculation is always fun, it would seem we have less control over those factors. Instead, what may be a little healthier speculation involves the banned list for the format.

Healthier speculation? The entire premise of the article is flawed.

[chokin]

I flipped threw the artical. I didn't like it. Wasn't there an article that hit about the same cards and then more at SCG?

[Aggro_zombies]

I flipped threw the artical. I didn't like it. Wasn't there an article that hit about the same cards and then more at SCG?
Menendian wrote an artical recently nominating one card from every color - and an artifact - for unbanning.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I think they should unban Black Lotus because with the rise of Hypergenesis, the Lotus would let other archetypes flourish.
In seriousland, Frantic Search should get a test run.

[chokin]

I think they should unban Black Lotus because with the rise of Hypergenesis, the Lotus would let other archetypes flourish.
In seriousland, Frantic Search should get a test run.

Hao abowt dey dun go an reprint da hole powr 9 an unban it?

[mchainmail]

So on turn 3, I get to draw 2 cards, discard Inkwell, and then untap 3 lands to cast Exhume with Daze backup?

[Aggro_zombies]

So on turn 3, I get to draw 2 cards, discard Inkwell, and then untap 3 lands to cast Exhume with Daze backup?
If you're waiting until turn three to do all of this, you may very well be dead to racing from both Zoo and Merfolk.

This seems extremely loose.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Hao abowt dey dun go an reprint da hole powr 9 an unban it?

Coz itz all lessen trhee and so it'll all hose hipergneiss.
@ search in Reanimator: You're already dropping on turn 2 with Force and Daze backup.

[Amon Amarth]

Article was meh but every card discussed could come off and not really shake things up too much. Well except for WGD, draws are silly.

[paK0]

It's not a question of "Is it better than ANT?". It comes down to whether or not Legacy needs a multitude of turn-one combo decks.


I think this nails it pretty accurately. None of the cards would spawn an unbeatable deck, but me might have another combo house and that is not desirable.

[TeenieBopper]

LEAVE CFB ALONE! THOSE IDIOTS KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO!

In all seriousness, people really suck at Legacy on other forums.

Take a careful look around, people suck at Legacy on this forum.

Also, article was mostly garbage. Conley Woods might be innovative and creative in Standard, but the best use of Land Tax would be Goblin Charbelcher decks and aggro decks abusing extra lands (with such cards as Wild Mongrel and Psychatog) was a damn joke. Sure, he's probably right about most of those cards being safe for unbanning, but a retard can tell you 2+2=4; that doesn't make him any less of a retard, though.

[dahcmai]

I'll tell you now that if they actually give me Land Tax to play with, I most definitely will jam it into a deck packing Scroll Rack, Divining Top, and CB. You bet your ass I will take forever on turns and I won't ever need to board. Control will have a new face and it will be Humility, Moat, and stall beyond reason. I know I would do it. It's by far the best use I can think of. the library manipulation of having top, tax, rack, Bstorm, and all the other usual suspects in one deck would be insane or at the very least quite nice in pulling what you need out easily.

Land Tax is far from broken. I just will feel bad for people I have to play against as I will intend on winning game 1 and then not bother to finish any others. We've had quite a few cards that go with tax printed since then that make it almost unfair.

Unban Tax should mean banning Top and I don't see that coming.

[Aggro_zombies]

That seems fine, though. If the best use of Tax is a control deck that would probably still lose to ANT and Lands, then I'm all for it. Control could use some love in this format.

[Vacrix]

So on turn 3, I get to draw 2 cards, discard Inkwell, and then untap 3 lands to cast Exhume with Daze backup?
Eh I don't know if Reanimator would run it. Having access to Careful Study at 1cc is much stronger than Frantic Search at 3cc, mainly because if your opponent screws you out of a land with Wasteland, your 3cc cantrip will just sit in your hand smiling at you while you get your face pounded, when a 1cc might actually find you the land you need to play something relevant instead. If anything, people should be discussing whether or not they want Solidarity to rise again to the high tiers of the meta. IMO Frantic Search is all it needs to be DTB again.

[jrsthethird]

Land Tax is far from broken. I just will feel bad for people I have to play against as I will intend on winning game 1 and then not bother to finish any others. We've had quite a few cards that go with tax printed since then that make it almost unfair.

Isn't that what Lands.dec is supposed to do? We don't need more decks in the format that go to time every round.