Strongest Cards VS Lands

[Laertes]

From people and forums, I haven't seen much consensus on what cards are the strongest against lands decks. " Such and such just gets ignored, such and such costs too much" etc. So what are your top 5 and why?

GY hate - Leyline of the Void, Extirpate, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Fairy Macabre
Non-basic hate- Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Pale Moon ; ) Back to Basics, Tsabo's Web, Price of Progress
Other - Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle

[Justin]

Price of Progress :)

[jrsthethird]

Ground Seal
Mudhole
Price of Progress
Lightning Greaves
Guiltfeeder

[Finn]

I would like to begin by saying hats off to you, sir for mentioning Pale Moon in some capacity other than ridicule. BTW, it is still amazingly useless, even here.

Extirpate is about the perfect hate card for that deck. But you still should not be playing it. For me and the decks I play, my hate cards don't have to be silver bullets since I am using other cards that also have some nontrivial effect at disrupting their game plan. So I can choose stuff that is not dead in other matchups to be my hate in this one.

[Anusien]

Guiltfeeder was said before Realm Razer?

[Nessaja]

tsabo's web is pretty good.

[jrsthethird]

Guiltfeeder was said before Realm Razer?

I forgot about it. But Realm Razer is bad if they know to play around it. You kill all your lands, and then they sit there rebuilding and denying you mana while leaving 1 Mishra's Factory open. How do you win then?

[Rizso]

Burning-Tree Shaman works as well.

[RexFTW]

You can just win by combo!

pithing needle on maze of ith can win a lot of games as well.

[DrJones]

Armageddon! Destroy all of them!

Edit: Also Land Equilibrium.

[lep]

I board in Realm Razer in Reanimator. It has played pretty well so far mid-late game.

[emidln]

Ad Nauseam

[menace13]

I forgot about it. But Realm Razer is bad if they know to play around it. You kill all your lands, and then they sit there rebuilding and denying you mana while leaving 1 Mishra's Factory open. How do you win then?

There is currently one deck that plays Razer and that is only games 2 and 3, rebuilding after it hits is not impossible. The use is in getting Chasm and Ith- to a lesser extent, Needle is just better here- offline or stalling recurrsion. There could be Exploration and Manabond out that in conjunction with a hand full or a GY with Loam and lands will enable recovery within a turn or 2. Provided there was Ith or Mishra and another land(s) in hand, then just playing Razer w/o having depleted his GY of Loam and not having another way of getting another beater into play or already in, while seeing he has 2-3 cards in hand would be bad.

Realm Razer is not bad. Playing around anything also does not make that strategy bad. Reanimator's strategy is to use Razer when the board is hostile to Inkwell, wether this is due to threat of Slaver through Ruins, or Fleshbag off Stronghold, or Chasm Loam lock. Once these things are answered Inkwell proceeds to win. Stalling them thru Needles and Purges while having a way to reset their land count is pretty good.

[Vacrix]

If you can get a decent piece of gravehate to shut down Loam then you will be in a pretty good position to win. It always depends on what you are playing though. Combo just laughs at lands while Aggro and Control can have problems.

[anonymos]

Wheel of Sun and Moon seems good.

[Anusien]

I forgot about it. But Realm Razer is bad if they know to play around it. You kill all your lands, and then they sit there rebuilding and denying you mana while leaving 1 Mishra's Factory open. How do you win then?
Pithing Needle on Factory, attack three times.
Alternately, Exhume on Iona, name Green, attack three times.

[dahcmai]

I'm one of those heavy Lands players. Here's what you want to know.

Extirpate - It sucks to get hit by it when playing lands, but it depends on what deck is running it. Just this Saturday I got hit 2nd turn 2 games in a row (for Loam) by a mono-B control and he sat on a couple of Crypts. People tend to think that grave hate is the be all end all for beating lands and it's far from true. I won both games handily by just stalling the board long enough by dropping mazes, Tabernacle, and eventually locked him out with a slaver when I drew into enough disenchant effects to clear the crypts. You need more than just turning off Loam. It does slow lands down, but the game is far from over. You need a clock and a quick one if you run this way. Extirpate buys time, use it or lose it. Unfortunately, most of the black decks running this aren't real fast. Reanimator is quick enough to use them and I would recommend this as your hate of choice for that deck.

Tormod's Crypt - Laughable Any Lands player worth his salt will smile seeing these. It means you get to trick them into setting it off and go nuts. If you set it on the table and never use it, it's actually worth something. Never use it if you are not able to drop another the same turn. To be honest, unless you are playing something extremely slow or extremely fast, I wouldn't even bother. The mid range decks like CB Bant and no bant should just stick with the other stuff. The big trick with Crypt is to take out the lands, not the loam. Loam is typically going to be your bait. I use it to bait people all the time. I will usually have another if I dump it into the yard. If you don't take the bait, I will go get a nasty land that you can't afford for me to have (like Tabernacle or multiple mazes). Getting that land is usually a good play even if you have to let the loam go. People make the mistake of hitting my yard after a loam and I already got what I needed by then. Use Intuition as your clue. What I am getting, I actually need, but loam is coming as bait.

The only real bonus of crypt is I tend to never set a Chalice at 0 unless it's combo. If you have a lot of things at 1cc, it might be worth using this instead.

Relic - Not bad at all. It's the worst of the grave hate in my opinion. It's recurring and slows things down to the point you have to have something to get rid of it. You can race it, but it leaves you open to taking the hit from the sweep side it has. It's the biggest pain to me. If you think you can get away with using this as your Dredge hate this is the one to pack for Lands.

Leyline of the Void - This one is pretty devastating. Lands has to go for a Ray of Revelation or Grip to kill it. That's not the easiest thing to do with a replacement effect like this in play. It's drawback of course is needing to be in hand and a large devotion to black unless you feel lucky. If you can play it, it's probably worth it as it's nasty against a lot of other things too.

Back to Basics - It's kind of meh surprisingly. I end up just waiting until I hit something to search up a Grip with and Grip it. Counter Intuition, it will be getting a set of Grips most likely. Mox Diamond helps out way too much in this case. Blow them up and it's a lot more effective. Problem is Merfolk and Mono-U control are about the only ones who can use it and it's not that effective. Better off with a Relic. Trick to keeping this is having counterbalance set at three if you have them, because grip is coming soon. It's enough of a slowdown to warrant full attention unless there are two Moxes out, then I might skip a turn or two before getting rid of it.

Blood Moon - See above. This one also depends on what Lands version you run into. The Blue one doesn't like it much, but the red one will roll right through it without a hiccup. The blue lands deck won't let it sit out there and will start hunting a Grip or Ray quickly. You have to lay into the burn fast while you have the chance. I lost a first round to a burn deck just this week because it had Moons and Maguses, Ankh of Mishras, and Price of Progresses. I managed to take back that loss later in top 8 because he didn't keep enough of an aggressive hand and I played through 3 PoP's, a Moon, and an Ankh. Those kinds of cards hurt of course, but they aren't game over.

Price of Progress - Game 1, it's probably going to win you that game as most people don't keep the Zuran Orb main. Game 2, it's pretty bad unless you have a plan for Z Orb. If you can't stop a Zuran Orb, Price is a dead card. I will gladly armageddon myself to give you some damage and gain 18 life or so. I will just spend the next two turns putting those lands back out. No big deal really. If I have 2 loams, it probably didn't even slow me down. The trick is to aim hate at Academy Ruins and then get rid of the Z Orb before you get me too low in life. I will sac a few lands if I see a Pridemage or something coming for the orb. If I get hit by a grip, Academy ruins will put it back out and I will sac a few to be safe. If I play against something like Zoo or some other deck I suspect of having price, I will go get Z orb and Academy ruins before anything else. I ignore Glacial Chasm for the most part even. Z orb is worse in my opinion.

Realm Razor - People need to come up with something better than that. I ran into him a few times now. Mishra's Factory is way too good against him. I run Slaughter Pact in the board for Burning Tree Shaman and it happens to hit him just as good. I'm not impressed by Realm Razor. Even when I didn't know about this guy coming out of Reanimator's board, I haven't lost a game to it yet. It's just not that strong. I typically have been holding Tabernacle now when I think a deck has it. I hold it then drop it if they cast him. Boom, he's gone and so is anything else that was out there. I guess if you can do an alpha strike, it's good then, but that's a tad situational. Extirpate is better anyway, save your board slots reanimator, you need them.

Guiltfeeder - Is actually scary. Not sure I can much other than race to 13 mana to slaver lock the game. I have nothing that can kill it.

Wheel of Sun and Moon - See Leyline. This one is a little worse since it gets accompanied by Knight usually. Knight gets multiple wastes and can just go through eventually. It's not fun. I'd rather see Leyline to be honest.

Chalice @2 - Pretty Irritating, though I have been known to set my own Chalices at 2 when I notice it cripples them more than me. Lands can win without Loam pretty easily. It tuns off 2 cards, Loam and Ancient Grudge. Not bad, not great.

Burning Tree Shaman - Quite scary and I'm glad the deck that runs this doesn't have counters. I only have Slaughter Pact to take care of it. It's fetched up by Tolaria West. Pact is kind of new tech and I haven't seen anyone else run it yet. BTS might be extremely good just because the typical Lands lists out there can't kill it. They have to wasteland everything and then drop a Tabernacle. Probably not the best plan to get rid of something that practically insta kills you.

Meddling Mage - Naming Loam? You better have a quick clock to use this. B Ring will be the answer and it's not hard to fetch up. I don't think I would bother unless you just have nothing else and even then I think I'd name my board cards. Grips or something first. Depends on your deck.


I play a Lands deck extremely resilient to grave hate because so many people in my area play Dredge that others have an enourmous amount of hate for dredge and it splash hates me on accident. I consider it good practice and play through it anyway. I typically see at least 8 board cards of hate for Dredge come at me each game. Typically Extirpate, Relic, Crypt, Wheel, Needles, or Leylines. One deck around here has Extirpate, Crypts, and Bojuka Bogs all in the same deck. I play 2 maindeck Crucibles to go around all that stuff. It's enough of a baiting mechanism to get through it. I tend to lose my loams most game 2 and 3's anyway.

The best way to beat lands is to pay attention to your hand and not keep crappy hands because it has a Crypt in it or some such. If you would keep a hand vs a control deck, you keep that same hand vs Lands most of the time if you are playing aggro. If you are playing control, you keep hands that you would keep against other control decks.

Lands plays like that. It's control except it has an innate ability to cast things that don't get countered. You rush it if possible and don't let it set up. If I get to 5 mana on the board with 1 being G and 2 being U, you are probably dead and just don't know it yet. You have to rush to kill before this. That's the goal. If playing control, your goal is to set up Counterbalance lock and/or keep Crucible off the table. Exploration and Manabond are worth countering only if you have a clock like a goyf or war monk to start some damage. If you're not going to attack anytime soon, save your counter for Intuition. It's the tutor that will lock you out. If you have a good clock and no Maze keeping it off, counter Loam. It seems silly, but it's amazing how much a little mana denial hurts this deck. This is really worth doing if playing Canadian Thresh or something else with some burn reach.


Combo is unfortunately this decks biggest weakness. It's pretty much game and I admit it's not real spectacular to play against Tendrils or Belcher. Handy hints though. Some Lands decks run Mindbreak Trap so Duress them first so you don't seem like a complete fool for running into it. I actually board in Extirpate and chalices against combo. Belcher, I just hope they try the Empty the Warrens route so I can Tabernacle my way out. Tendrils, I tend to wait holding a black open and Extirpate something half assed useful when they Mystical messing up the draw. All the while building enough to drop Chalice at 1 first, then 0, then 3. Tolaria West will get all Chalices so it's not hard to do. I actually haven't lost to Tendrils even with good pilots behind them out of sheer luck and doing this. I know it's a horrid match up and I have been super lucky. A decent Lands player with do the same tactic. Expect it. It is after all, our only hope.

Lands is one of the most solid decks I have ever played. It really comes down to people not knowing how to play against it and not knowing it's capabilities more than anything. I watch people make odd mistakes all the time and have to try and figure out what they were thinking so I can guide them down that path and then use it to my advantage. You want to beat this deck? Play Combo first and foremost. If not combo, use Grave hate to turn off what you fear most. Don't just blindly go for Loam, you are being baited.

A lot just plain depends on what you are playing. I typically don't mind playing against control It's fairly easy. Aggro decks are easy too except for Zoo. Zoo can be fast enough to matter. It's still in Lands favor by far, but you can get the god hands. Keep hands that pummel the opponent quickly. Sure, they can have a Maze or something, but the majority of the time they kept a hand with Exploration, Manabond, Loam, or some combination of those and ignored the lands themselves as it's easy to tutor them up.

Watch out for the new tech also. I'm not the only one who noticed how good Meloku is when a Manabond is out. Yeah, it's pretty sick. Confidants and Meloku are quite amazing in this deck. I've been testing Standstill also since Lands can hide under it better than any deck out there.


Here's my latest board

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Krosan Grip
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
1 Zuran Orb
1 Meloku

These are typically the cards you need to hate on. Pick the one you would like to see on the table the least and there's what you should be baording against. I only boarded it in as a silver bullet. I need those and that's the largest weakness of the deck. It's board is way too jam packed.

Lastly, don't slow play against this deck. You will regret it as it typically takes forever to kill you and most Lands players know they will go to time and are perfectly happy with winning on one game. You have the advantage in speed so go ahead and get to the next one and don't let them draw it out too far or you might not have time to snag another win. Seriously, you are going to die via Mishra's factory or a Barbarian Ring. It's slow and agonizing.

Hope that helps.


Sorry, was bored and wrote a book again.

[bondfan]

Everlasting torment allows you to roll right through maze and chasm

[dahcmai]

The problem with cards like that is sure they are excellent vs lands, but what else is it good against? It's a little too single minded and you can't afford to board a full slot to only one deck that's already rare to see. That is a good one though, never noticed Torment before. Shuts off Maze of Chasm quite handily and demands a Grip or Ray. This deck is not fond of burn at all.

[Maveric78f]

Guiltfeeder - Is actually scary. Not sure I can much other than race to 13 mana to slaver lock the game. I have nothing that can kill it.
Just block all day with Mishra ???

Everlasting torment is a nice card in burn SB.

My suite against land.deck in my Uwb tempo deck, is 3 Jotun + 4 wastelands + 4 stifle + 4 vials MD, 2 extirpate (for Life) + 3 meddling mage (for EE) in SB. It's usually enough.

[Serbitar]

I also noticed that random janky Eldrazi like It that Betrays are way scarier from Reanimator than Realm Razor. Without the Slaughter Pact tech or Ensnaring Bridge, you have no out to that one, except racing with Loams and Manabond (which usually doesn't happen).

[whienot]

Guiltfeeder

Is that Desmond Hume?

[dahcmai]

Just block all day with Mishra ???

This is one of those "in a perfect world type things". I'd love to block things like that with Mishra and I bet some of the time you can. Most of the time, you will just take the hit to not lose your mishras. Sure, you can get them back, but losing land sucks if it's a mana maker. Though in all reality, Reanimator would stand the best chance of using this and I doubt they will go that direction. It's too narrow. Mono-B control decks would love to have a reason to kill something with all those useless cards they end up with though. It's situational though, it would depend on a lot of factors whether or not I would take a hit from it.

[jrsthethird]

Guiltfeeder has 0 power, it won't kill a Factory. If you have 2 Factories you can gang up and kill it.

Pathrazer of Ulamog seems great against them. Destroys permanents whether or not he gets Mazed, and can't be chumped by Factories.

[DrJones]

Gilt-Leaf Archdruid.

[dahcmai]

Yeah, I'd have to say Pathrazor isn't bad. He does die to Slaughter Pact, but I guess that all depends on whether or not you can swing with it by third turn or so. I'd be scared if I didn't have a Tolaria west on me at the time when that thing dropped down. Seems like an excellent card for Reanimator, just sucks for everyone else.

[Julian23]

Just block all day with Mishra ???

Best way to lose the game, sir.

[Maveric78f]

Best way to lose the game, sir.

Can you elaborate?

[menace13]

Gilt-Leaf Archdruid.

There is actually a Elf aggro list that is on deckcheck, where the guy top 8'd with Gilt-leaf in his sb x4.
Love legacy.

[Maveric78f]

Ajani Vengeant is quite good too. Even if it does not have the surprise factor, it is certainly a pain for the land.deck.

[Julian23]

Can you elaborate?

Sorry, my bad. I was looking at a completly different card. *walks away in same*