U/W/x CounterTop Walker [Archive]

Hanni

06-15-2010, 04:02 AM

Current decklist (as of 12/20/10)
U/W/b CounterTop Walker

Lands (23)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven

Spells (37)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Vindicate
2 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard (15)
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
4 Duress
4 Relic of Progenitus

(Somewhat) Original Post:
Ok, well, this has been something I've been meaning to do for a long time and I always get too lazy to do it. So I'm finally just going to do it, ya know?

So what is CounterTop Walker anyway? It's a blue based control deck, like Landstill, that uses Counterbalance as both a control element and a form of card advantage, and uses Planeswalker's as the deck's primary win conditions.

This deck is an evolution of Landstill. This isn't something I thought of one night and created a random decklist for, this is an evolution that I've been working on for years. The deck started originally as a classic U/W Landstill deck, and it has been slowly evolving since then. For all intents and purposes, I still consider this deck a Landstill variant, even though I'm no longer running Standstills.

This is the deck that I believe is the correct evolution of control in the format.

Let me just say, that Planeswalkers, specifically Elspeth and Jace 2.0, have redefined the power level of win conditions for control decks. I remember several years ago when the questionable area of all control decks was always the win conditions. Not anymore.

Also, I don't understand why people in the Landstill thread are so resistant to using Counterbalance in the maindeck. It's only the best control spell in the entire format for any sort of attrition based game, which is exactly what decks like Landstill do. To boot, it doesn't just dominate the stack and that's that, it generates actual card advantage. Yes, every spell after the first spell Counterbalance counters in any given game becomes card advantage... spell numero uno is card parity, after that the +CA starts rolling in.

What makes Counterbalance even more lethal in a dedicated control deck like Landstill, is that while Counterbalance itself doesn't reverse a bad board position, Wrath of God does, and then the active CounterTop proceeds to spell game over for opponent. Without Counterbalance, any deck can recover after a Wrath of God, but Counterbalance doesn't let them do that. Counterbalance makes cards like Wrath of God stronger, which is something that decks like Landstill have been needing for a long time to remain viable.

I've heard all of the arguments before. The cmc isn't as good as other decks using Counterbalance, Counterbalance is too slow and Spell Snare is better, so on and so forth. This is all folley.

The deck doesn't need to be primarily 1cc, 2cc, and enough 3cc for Counterbalance to be any good. Those decks that use Counterbalance for the purpose of hardlocking don't run as many other control spells as a dedicated control deck does, so they need to get more mileage out of their Counterbalances. They also don't intend to grind the game out quite as much as a dedicated control deck, so they don't have as much time to set up a CounterTop lock and so they rely on blindflipping alot more. So yea, maybe my Counterbalances don't savagely blindflip as good as the next guys. That doesn't make Counterbalance any less savage in my deck, though. 10+ 1cc and 10+ 2cc spells have proven to be more than enough for Counterbalance to get the job done. What Counterbalance doesn't answer, specifically 3cc spells, Counterspell does. Or I can just nuke it with Vindicate. Just sayin.

Next, I don't understand running narrow cards like Spell Snare. The deck is more than capable of answering spells early without it, and can easily answer the spells that do slip through the cracks just a few turns later. Some people sware by the card, and this isn't a Spell Snare vs Counterbalance thread, so I'll just leave it at that for the meantime.

Look at what Counterbalance does for the archtype, though. It turns horrible matchups into positive matchups. ANT becomes a much better matchup, Reanimator becomes a much better matchup, Aggro Loam becomes a much better matchup, Burn/Sligh/Zoo all become a much better matchup... I mean, seriously, I can go on and on.

The only matchups that negate the power of Counterbalance are the decks that are already designed to do that, namely Vial Aggro, like Goblins and Merfolk. Luckily, this deck isn't as dependant on Counterbalance against aggro decks as other dedicated Counterbalance decks tend to be, so I'm not shooting myself in the foot. Postboard, it's a very simple fix to cut Counterbalances, and hell, might as well cut Force of Wills too, for a ton more creature removal. Last time I checked, control decks with lots of creature removal > aggro decks.

As far as the splash goes, I prefer U/W/b. U/W/r is also a very viable option. I guess the question becomes, what matchups does each splash strengthen. Red clearly improves the aggro matchups, and Red Elemental Blast in the sideboard can be very strong too.

However, I think black can improve the aggro matchup just as easily as red, since it also offers additional removal. Innocent Blood and Smother instead of Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix, Perish instead of Firespout, so on and so forth. Except black tends to be a more versatile splash color, primarily because of Vindicate.

My current decklist (as of 7/6/2010)

U/W/b CounterTop Walker

Lands (23)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven

Spells (37)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Doom Blade
2 Vindicate

Sideboard (15)
4 Innocent Blood
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Meddling Mage
4 Relic of Progenitus

As you can see, the deck is basically a Landstill deck that decided Standstills were just no longer what they used to be. Without Decree, 4 Factories is really not enough to compete with all the decks running around with their own manlands + Wastelands, not to mention the Vial aggro that completely invalidate it as a draw engine.

I don't run my own Wastelands because I'm a control deck, I want to make land drops not lose them, and I'm 3c with 4 colorless lands already. Vindicate answers the random problematic lands that I'd want Wasteland for, like Academy Ruins, while being a catch all for everything else too.

So what replaces Standstill? Well... Sensei's Divining Top is the best card in the entire deck, so that's an automatic 4-of. Brainstorm is an automatic 4-of in nearly every blue based deck out there. The new Jace has the ability to discover the top card of libraries... hmm. Oh yea, what about that card that Threshold used to run back in the day that was really good at drawing cards? Predict.

A turn 1 Top enables draw 2 Predicts for the rest of the entire game. It's instant speed draw, so the deck can stay untapped incase it needs to Counterspell, Edict, Swords, whatever... then draws 2 when nothing else is goin down. Between Top, fetchlands, and Predict... the deck munches through cards to make sure it has a stockload of the very best cards. Predict may be a draw 2, but it's a virtual draw 3, just like Brainstorm (puts the shittiest card of the top 3 into the graveyard).

This isn't even relevant to why the spell works so damn well in this build, but... Predict'ing away the ANT and Reanimator spells that get put to the top with Mystical Tutor is just fun times.

Anyways, other than the controversial Predict and Counterbalance, the rest of the deck is Landstill. I'm hoping by now that Elspeth and Jace 2.0 are commonly accepted as being very strong, but I'll dig into that deeper if need be. What I like so much about them both is that, aside from them both being extremely fast clocks on a clean board, they both excel at control.

I could go into detail with matchup analysis and so on and so forth, and I will when I get some more time to type it out. I'll edit this post when I get more time to do so. For now, I simply wanted to make a new thread for this deck because it just doesn't fit in the Landstill thread any longer.

Enjoy, discuss, or whatever it is the cool kids do these days.

Vacrix

06-15-2010, 04:27 AM

Looks like a pretty solid list with an exception. I don't understand the Edicts. You don't even run any creatures so why not just replace them with Innocent Blood and make room in the board?

Aleksandr

06-15-2010, 04:40 AM

Part of the Landstill success was due to Crucible. I know that you don't play Wasteland and with all your removal, you're far less inclined to eternal-blocks with Factory, but still - isn't it worthy to try at least one copy?

Hanni

06-15-2010, 05:28 AM

Looks like a pretty solid list with an exception. I don't understand the Edicts. You don't even run any creatures so why not just replace them with Innocent Blood and make room in the board?

2cc. Rounds me out to 12 1cc spells and 12 2cc spells vs 14 1cc spells and 10 2cc spells if they were Innocent Bloods. Plus it's instant speed, which works better with my Predict's, plus is just randomly more useful, like killing enemy manlands.

Innocent Blood is great too, don't get me wrong, but Diabolic Edict makes more sense as a maindeck card. I bring in the 4 Innocent Bloods vs all sorts of decks though, including random things like Enchantress (Argothian bitch), Reanimator, Merfolks (1cc removal > Daze/Cursecatcher), to name a few.

Besides, those 2 spells are in a flex spot, which could just as easily be -2 Edict, +1 Counterspell +1 Vindicate, etc. That's just how I have it set up for right now.

Part of the Landstill success was due to Crucible. I know that you don't play Wasteland and with all your removal, you're far less inclined to eternal-blocks with Factory, but still - isn't it worthy to try at least one copy?

I stopped using Crucible in Landstill years ago. It's not needed to make consistent land drops and 3cc is a bit expensive for a weak card advantage engine. Recurring manlands is redundant, given that the deck's primary win conditions are it's Planeswalker's. It's quite possible that it could be a very strong sideboard card for some very selective matchups, particularly heavy LD decks... otherwise, no need.

Fuzzy

06-15-2010, 11:31 AM

Call me heretic, but it should run the white Wall of Blossons.

paK0

06-15-2010, 11:52 AM

I saw another list of yours in the Walker thread and I really like it (the name sucks, though^^).

The change you definately want to make is:
Heath -> Marsh Flats

Aside from that I personally changes the B to R, mainly to run Firespout in the WoG slot, this helps the curve, loosing Innocent Blood sucks though. Since Reanimator makes less showings and Merfolks numbers increase it is reasonable meta wise.

The thing I most dislike is 4 Relic. 4 Slots is rather slim for the Dredge matchup, if you play Gravehate anyway you might as well run the 5th and seal the deal.

Aside from that the deck looks good and I think I will play my version sometimes (assuming I get the Jaces^^)

Hanni

06-17-2010, 02:22 AM

Call me heretic, but it should run the white Wall of Blossons.

Why though? I'm running Wrath of God, and a vanilla 0/4 doesn't block everything. What matchups would it improve, and what would you remove for it?

I saw another list of yours in the Walker thread and I really like it (the name sucks, though^^).

Well, I used Kaejur as the name of my Druid on World of Warcraft when I used to play that game. However, maybe the name that I name all of my Mages in video games would be more appropriate (chick Mages btw)? UWb Syrna Control instead?

A names just a name, what would you name it? I mean, something catchier would be better I'm sure, to draw more attention to the deck.

The change you definately want to make is:
Heath -> Marsh Flats

You know what's funny... I've been just retweaking this same deck on MWS for so long now that I never even thought to make that swap when the new fetches came out. Thanks for pointing that out to me, it's fixed now.

Aside from that I personally changes the B to R, mainly to run Firespout in the WoG slot, this helps the curve, loosing Innocent Blood sucks though. Since Reanimator makes less showings and Merfolks numbers increase it is reasonable meta wise.

The red splash is definitely a valid approach. To be honest though, I prefer Innocent Bloods for the Merfolk matchup because it's 1cc removal. All I need to do is survive long enough to where my WoG's aren't eating Dazes and Cursecatchers anymore and I'm good, and even Firespout can be tricky to pull off at 3cc without the additional support of other 1cc removal spells. The red splash definitely makes game 1 better vs Merfolk though, and then game 2 is better with REB vs Innocent Blood, definitely.

If Merfolk is expected to make a big showing, red is better, I agree.

Otherwise, black just handles randomness alot better.

The thing I most dislike is 4 Relic. 4 Slots is rather slim for the Dredge matchup, if you play Gravehate anyway you might as well run the 5th and seal the deal.

Well, I'm actually running more than 4 spots for Dredge, though.

I bring in Meddling Mage. I use Mage to try and shut down their sacrifice enablers, Cabal Therapy and Dread Returns. If they can't sacrifice guys, they can't get tokens. Plus, they'd be dumb to swing into a Mage with Bloodghast or Ichorid if they had Bridge's in the graveyard.

I bring in Engineered Explosives. EE @ 0 gives me a nice safe feeling that they can't go broken on me out of nowhere.

To top it all off, there is Relic of Progenitus. In all honesty, this may even be overkill for Ichorid, considering the fact that I'd be bringing in nearly my entire board for games 2 and 3. So you say slim, I say overkill.

Aside from that the deck looks good and I think I will play my version sometimes (assuming I get the Jaces^^)

Awesome, let me know how you do.

---

On another note, I just want to say that the Predict's were something new that I was trying, it's the most recent addition to the deck, even more recent than Jace the Mindsculptor. After playing with the deck for a while, I have to say that Predict is just amazing.

I normally spin Top every turn once it's in play regardless. Once I hit 3 mana, I can stay untapped incase I need to cast Counterspell, and if I don't need to, I can end of turn spin Top, then cast Predict, putting the shittiest of the 3 cards into my graveyard, and then drawing the other 2. Next turn, I'm looking at 3 fresh cards with Top. The card quality + card advantage generated from Top + Predict is just nuts.

I've also found that blind Counterbalance flips on my end, when they aren't a card I'd want to draw, enable my Predict's also. So I actually have 4 Brainstorm, 4 Top, 4 Counterbalance, and 2 Jace to enable the Predict's. I've been playing against alot of decks lately that have been using Enlightened Tutor (Thopter) or Mystical Tutor (Reanimator, ANT) that not only enable Predict to be a draw 2, but also make Predict a disruption spell.

In light of this, I've decided to test out a list running 4 Predict's. I was very hesistant to try this at first, originally opting for a 2/2 split of Predict/Standstill when I first started testing Predict. Then, I moved to 3 Predict's and no Standstill's, because Predict performed very well in my testing and Standstill had been performing very bad for me for quite a while. 3 was a good number, and I figured 4 would cause me to have hands where I had too many Predict's and no ways to make them draw 2's, essentially rendering them a dead card. Now, I'm thinking 4 would actually be the best number to run. Testing will ensue, and then I'll post my findings.

For now, this is the list I'll be doing that testing with:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [U] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [IN] Island (2)
2 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BRB] Wrath of God
2 [JGC] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus

The 4th Counterspell might become a singleton Diabolic Edict, I'm not quite sure yet. The more important part, for me, is determing the correct number of Predict's (3 or 4).

---

On an unrelated note... no love for this deck? It's barely gotten any views, and so little replies... I think I maybe if I PM a mod to get the thread title changed, it would help some?

Pienterekaak

06-17-2010, 10:00 AM

how about
-1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
-1 [CS] Counterbalance

+2 Enlightened Tutor

It fetches Top, Counterbalance and after SB EE and relic

jazzykat

06-17-2010, 10:33 AM

Since we played a match last night. You with this thing and me with UR Dreadstill+Lavamangs I have some opinions.

1. It's landstill I suppose, as much as it can be w/o standstill.
2. You were at a disadvantage under standstill without wastelands. I really wouldn't worry about dreadstill but Merfolk can be a problem. If you don't have a good Merfolk matchup then I'm not terribly interested because traditionally landstill builds have struggled vs. Tendrils.
3. Planeswalkers are nutberger good. I can't believe how much chaos you created with them.
4. Countertop's blind flips were as you stated sub optimal. With a top and fetches you get a lot more milage and it really shines in this deck as you really don't have much to play for a million turns anyway.
5. Predict is better than I thought because it also works on an opponents blindflipped CB as long as they don't have a CMC 2 on top. What is the right number is a great question but you can do some really cool things, even more so if you used a little discard in your list. They hide the goodies with bs and then you take an educated guess what they hid on top with the predict, Ouch! In fact wether this deck becomes successful or not I think a SCD should be started on predict because it may be nuts in this meta as it can not only produce CA, it can disrupt tutors (mystical, enlightened) brainstorm, and ponder. (especially in response to discard), feed thresh/tarmogoyf and graveyard strategies in general. Oh, and it also knocks tops off the top when the opponent uses it to draw an extra card...

Mono_Thematic

06-17-2010, 11:48 AM

Since Counter-Top is looking to be too random to rely upon, maybe chalice of the void would be better to "block-out" spells of cc 0, 1, or 2. Just think: the earliest you can get counter-top on line (with mana to spare to spin the top) would be turn 3. By then you could have chalices locking down cc 0 and 1, and next turn could be set at cc 2.
The obvious down side would be you'd have to cut alot (stp, brainstorm, innocent blood, ect.) but it might still be worth considering if you can find suitable replacements

Hanni

06-17-2010, 02:45 PM

Oh, and it also knocks tops off the top when the opponent uses it to draw an extra card...

Yea, that's pretty awesome.

It also helps you get rid of multiple Top's of your own if you don't have the fetchland to shuffle it away. Cast both Top's, tap one to draw a card, cast Predict naming Top (targetting self). Voila, you basically just got a draw 3 from Predict.

2. You were at a disadvantage under standstill without wastelands. I really wouldn't worry about dreadstill but Merfolk can be a problem. If you don't have a good Merfolk matchup then I'm not terribly interested because traditionally landstill builds have struggled vs. Tendrils.

Yes, which is why I've been unsatisfied with Standstill for a while and switched to Predict. Standstill is less scary from Merfolk because they don't run as much cantrips as Dreadstill to see it as often, but yes, Standstill is still a bomb for them. The Merfolk matchup is only bad when I don't draw enough removal to keep the board clean enough to hit the lategame (meaning I take 20+ points of damage before I can hit 5+ land drops). Otherwise, they are an aggro strategy that is forced to overcommit against a control deck that runs Wrath of God.

Current sideboard plan for Merfolk:

-2 Counterspell/Counterbalance
-2 Vindicate
+2 Innocent Blood
+2 Engineered Explosives

The extra 1cc spot removal is easier to resolve and helps get me to the lategame, where I am capable of casting the devastating Wrath of God.

Engineered Explosives can blow up Vials and is much easier to cast than Vindicate. It's also another board sweeper against them, and any and all ways for me to kill 2 or more of their guys with a single card (card advantage) is the key to winning that matchup.

In all honesty, I've done alot to improve this matchup vs classic Landstill builds, primarly by making my draw engine functional vs them (dropping Standstill for Predict). Spell Snare may be stronger than Counterbalance vs them since it's less expensive and stops turn 2 Standstill's, but I've still gotten great mileage out of it vs them, particularly when they don't have Vial, but it still helps me shut down Standstill, which is the most important card to counter.

If Merfolk is expected to make a big showing at a particular event, I can just as easily drop the black splash for a red splash. Grim Lavamancer's out of the sideboard completely shut Merfolk down, and Firespout is easier to resolve than Wrath of God.

Oh, and I actually played ANT right after I played you, and crushed him in 4 games 2-0 and 2-0 (2 preboard games, 2 postboard games). I did get rather lucky, landing turn 2 CounterTop in 2 of the games, and drawing relevant cards in all of the games (countermagic). I feel very favored going against them preboard, what with Predict vs Mystical, CounterTop, Counterspell, and Force of Will. Postboard, after I bring in Meddling Mage, it just feels like my whole deck is aimed to beat them. He felt that way too, and when I apologized to him for him running into such a bad matchup, he laughed and said yea but your deck folds to Zoo.

So I made him load up Zoo. We went 1-1, and during game 3, when I was about to gain control over the gamestate finally (down to 7 life), I got a Player Lost. Not sure if it was him intentionally leaving or not, but I really wanted to play game 3 out.

Current sideboard plan vs ANT:

-3 Wrath of God
-1 Vindicate
+4 Meddling Mage

At this point, if you expect them to bring in Xantid Swarm or Dark Confidant, leave the Swords in the deck. I always leave Swords in for game 2 just incase. If you did lose game 1 but win game 2, and it goes to game 3, and you didn't see Xantid or Confidant...

You can drop StP for Relic. It rarely has a use as graveyard hate (removes Thresh for Cabal Ritual, they probably sided out IGG), but the draw a card aspect is more relevant than StP and they are still a 1cc spell for the Counterbalance curve.

The thing I love most about Counterbalance in this matchup is that it's rather strong even with blindflipping, since I run 23 lands, and 0cc is a great foil to ANT.

3. Planeswalkers are nutberger good. I can't believe how much chaos you created with them.

Yea, both Elspeth and Jace 2.0 are very strong cards and I don't think people realize just how powerful they are when they discount control decks as viable in the metagame. The 2/2 split is perfect.

4. Countertop's blind flips were as you stated sub optimal. With a top and fetches you get a lot more milage and it really shines in this deck as you really don't have much to play for a million turns anyway.

Yes, this is the case. Don't get me wrong, I've had blind flips work for me before to good effect, but most of the time, it's nothing reliable. My deck is more forgiving of not getting use out of Counterbalance right away, since I have other control spells to manage the gamestate until I finally get something to make Counterbalance useful. I have plenty of time, being a control deck, to finally get CounterTop assembled. Counterbalance turns topdecked Brainstorm's into Counterspells, and again... every card I do counter with Counterbalance is generating card advantage, which is how control decks tend to win most games.

Difference is, I'm generating a higher quality of card advantage with Counterbalance than a normal draw spell... if I cast Fact or Fiction, I may not get anything relevant. If I counter stuff with Counterbalance, I stop a relevant spell and they waste X amount of mana in the process, so in essence I'm gaining a tempo advantage too, where most draw spells (Predict included) tend to take away tempo at the expense of card advantage.

5. Predict is better than I thought because it also works on an opponents blindflipped CB as long as they don't have a CMC 2 on top. What is the right number is a great question but you can do some really cool things, even more so if you used a little discard in your list. They hide the goodies with bs and then you take an educated guess what they hid on top with the predict, Ouch! In fact wether this deck becomes successful or not I think a SCD should be started on predict because it may be nuts in this meta as it can not only produce CA, it can disrupt tutors (mystical, enlightened) brainstorm, and ponder. (especially in response to discard), feed thresh/tarmogoyf and graveyard strategies in general.

Predict has been nothing short of amazing for me since I began testing it several weeks ago. It has a large amount of synergy with the rest of the deck, regardless of the metagame, so they are mainstays regardless.

However, you are right, and the Predict's have been doubling over as disruption in quite a few matchups.

The only reason this deck won't get successful is because no one is going to play it, or even find out about it. Otherwise, this deck is a complete animal.

Valtrix

06-17-2010, 03:10 PM

I disagree. I think that people are starting to look at control decks again, as evidenced by some decks at some recent big Legacy tournaments. In fact, I've also been constructing a control deck using some similar card choices, but taking a completely different philosophy than most. I also know some other people looking at control decks. Regardless, I think that people are seeing the power of the new planeswalkers, namely Jace and Elspeth, as well as the prevalence of some really good and cheap answers, especially innocent blood which is a good foil to reanimator.

Lord_Cyrus

06-17-2010, 05:18 PM

I am glad to see that you are still working on your CB-Top Landstill build Hanni. I always felt like it was your signature deck and your strongest addition to the format. So many card choices feel so right here - 2/2 Jace/Els split is great. I wonder about Predict but I don't have that much experience using it, I'll give it a whirl.

Also, I disagree that people aren't noticing this style of deck. One of my friends even told me that he's heard the name JaceStill used to describe it, and talked to some Pro's who think it's the next big thing in a format full of Zoo.

Overall I think the list is strong, but a few personal suggestions (which you might hate):

(1) No real reason not to run a WoG/DoJ split. Yes, it might never matter, but if it wins you even one single game, it's done the job.

(2) Why not run either Cunning Wish or Enlightened Tutor? Yes they can be slow, but they can also improve M/U's game 1. It also allows you diversify your board a bit. For example:

-1 WoG
-1 Sensei Top
-1 CB
+ 2 Enlightened tutor
+ 1 EE

Then the board could look something like this:

1 Humility
3 Ethersworn Cannonist (far superior to MM against ANT when using tutor)
2 relic of Prog.
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (permanent GY solution, GG if they can't remove it quickly)
2 Engineered Plague
1 EE
1 CB/Crucible (not sure of this slot, but something to make control mirrors easier)
3 Innocent Blood

EDIT: Predict is pretty amazing. 2 cards for 1U is damn impressive. Using it to clear dead draws or give dead draws to the opponent is very strong in a deck like this. I love the synergy with Jace.

Hanni

06-17-2010, 05:33 PM

I am glad to see that you are still working on your CB-Top Landstill build Hanni. I always felt like it was your signature deck and your strongest addition to the format.

Well, U/W/b Fish was my signature deck, but that was about 3 years ago.

People may be more accepting to control as the days pass, but I can still go back and read posts all over The Source from not too long ago where it's assumed that control decks are dead in the format.

(1) No real reason not to run a WoG/DoJ split. Yes, it might never matter, but if it wins you even one single game, it's done the job.

I used to run DoJ for a very long time. The card just doesn't cut it anymore, it's power level is way too far behind the rest of the format.

(2) Why not run either Cunning Wish or Enlightened Tutor? Yes they can be slow, but they can also improve M/U's game 1. It also allows you diversify your board a bit. For example:

Cunning Wish is way too slow, costing 3 mana for a tutor is totally unecessary. The deck already has all the tools it needs to answer nearly everything in the maindeck.

Enlightened Tutor is very interesting, since it has synergy with Counterbalance. However, at the point where I'd run a card disadvantage tutor, I'd probably run Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek as targets for it, and at that point, the deck becomes a totally different deck.

EDIT: Predict is pretty amazing. 2 cards for 1U is pretty damn impressive. Using it to clear dead draws or give dead draws to the opponent is very strong in a deck like this. I love the synergy with Jace.

I was skeptical at first myself when I was searching for a replacement draw spell for Standstill. However, the more and more I test the card, the more amazing I keep finding it. I wonder how long it takes before the card starts seeing widespread play in alot of decks. It's really that good.

Top + Predict is such a powerful draw engine.

Lord_Cyrus

06-17-2010, 05:36 PM

Haha... I got myself in trouble with abbreviations.

DoJ = Day of Judgement.

I agree that Decree is far too slow now. It must go if Landstill is to survive, Planeswalkers fill this role much better. I still think that E. Tutor could be very helpful to this deck without running Thopter combo... Although Thopter isn't a bad way to take the deck IMO, and doesn't change it that radically.

JamieW89

06-17-2010, 06:07 PM

Hanni

06-17-2010, 06:14 PM

This is definately very interesting.
I don't want to play CB, and I don't have Jace, but do you think Predict could fit in a normal U/W/b Landstill list (I do run 3 tops, 4 brainstorm) or isn't it worth it?

Yes. I'd recommend 4 Top's, though.

Predict won't be quite as effective for you as it is for me, because other cards in my deck make it functional too (Counterbalance, Jace), but it will still be good for you. Best way to find out is to try it for yourself and see if you think it works.

Kangaxx

06-17-2010, 07:36 PM

Cool deck, bro. But what does" Kaejur" mean? :confused:

Hanni

06-17-2010, 07:41 PM

Kaejur

It's just a made up name. The deck name probably needs renamed to something more people understand.

I'm up for suggestions on a finding a good name for the deck. Your not the first to question the name.

god_campbell

06-18-2010, 01:57 AM

UWB Predictable Control works..

paK0

06-18-2010, 10:38 AM

Or just Walker-Countertop for startes, fancy names can be chosen as soon as people start to recognize this =).

I switched back from R to B since I had a testing session yesterday and got stomped by Merfolk despite Firespout. Goblins on the other hand was easy, so black might be the right call afterall.

I also fount that the 4th factory should be another Dual, I stumbled on Mana quite a bit.

This is my current testing version:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [A] Tundra
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [CHK] Island (3)
1 [CHK] Plains (2)
1 [SHM] Swamp (4)

// Spells
4 [AP] Vindicate
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [MM] Counterspell
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
3 [OD] Predict
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [5E] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 2 [M10] Liliana Vess
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

Felidae

06-18-2010, 11:26 AM

The first thing that comes in mind: Why do you play Predict over Standstill, as the list looks very familiar to LS and together with 4 Planeswalkers, Top to hit your landdrops and Mishras (maybe adding a 4th? The manabase doesn't seem so bad and cutting 1 Island for the 4th Mishra looks fine.) to start the beating, while still having the same number of 2cc spells for CB.
With 8(12 with Edict ) spotremovals I assume you can handle aggro long enought to slame down a Standstill, maybe even backed up with CB/Top or a Planeswalker.

Or maybe I'm completly wrong, who knows.

€.: Sry, I assumed that your post was the first, after reading the "real" 1st post and also his explanation about Predict in the LS thread I get the idea of pros/cons of the card, but I still believe that Standstill would be the better call.

Doks

06-21-2010, 05:59 AM

I had to play a light UW version at Germany's Duelmen (65 players; 6 rounds, 3 losses: 2x Goblins, 1x Dredge) that used the core strategies of this deck, so I might have something useful to say:

1) CB / Top is still awesome. If it's not, you already have some cards you're going to board out.

2) Predict: I played 4, but unfortunately I did'nt see them very often. But when played, they really always were a draw 2 for 1U. 3 might be enough, though.

3) Planeswalkers: I have the feeling that 4 is 1 too much. As I said, I had to play a light version so I ran Hoofprints of the Stag (idea from The Epic Control) as they synergize with about everything else in this deck: additional important CC2 for CB, fast kill with active Top / Jace or Brainstorm, cheap & resistent, spreading the type of wincons (Walkers <-> Enchantment). I even made room for a single DoJ, but it really is too slow. But on the other hand I didn't like Factories without active CB / Top as they ate all this otherwise unimportant removal.

4) This deck really needs 1-2 Vedalken Shackles (admitted, it was risky, but I ran them in the vindicate slot). They are badass with 10+ U-Lands. They destroy every aggressive strategy if used wisely. They stall the board after a WoG if something gets through CB. They force the opponent to overextend which makes WoG even stronger. Please try them.

All in all, this deck is quite fun to play. For me as a dedicated control player (MUC <3) it was a new experience not only to create CA through pure card drawing (Predict) but more interesting through using single cards or card engines to provide cheap and steady CA by forcing your opponent to make expensive (more cards, more mana) moves only to have his / her resolved spell answered by classic control cards. It's the mix this deck provides.

Hanni

06-21-2010, 03:05 PM

I had the thread renamed to its generic concept, rather than use any fancy names. Since I don't get a chance to play in tournaments, I can't just go smashing tournaments and have my deck become popular with a funky name.

I'll still call it UWb Kaejur Control, because that's what it is to me, but this should give more players access to a deck that badly needs to be exploited and abused in tournaments.

Before the banning of Mystical Tutor, this deck would have dominated. It fixed most of Landstills problems, or at the very least, improved them dramatically. The only matchups Counterbalance is mediocre against is Vial Aggro, which still aren't horrible, and become good matchups after sideboarding.

After the banning of Mystical Tutor, we lose 2 good matchups in ANT and Reanimator. Oh well. If that means aggro gets more play, that means Control will have to go around smashing aggro.

I switched back from R to B since I had a testing session yesterday and got stomped by Merfolk despite Firespout. Goblins on the other hand was easy, so black might be the right call afterall.

If you are going to splash red, you need to run Grim Lavamancer in the sideboard. That card singlehandedly destroys Merfolk.

I also fount that the 4th factory should be another Dual, I stumbled on Mana quite a bit.

I almost never stumble on mana, I find my manabase to be extremely consistent. Then again, I run only 2 Vindicate MD, and you're running 4 Vindicate 4 Diabolic Edict, so that definitely makes a huge difference.

The 4th Factory can be dropped. There's nothing keep Factories in the deck at all anymore, since we don't run Standstill. The reason I still play them, is because the deck needs to run 23 lands minimum no matter how you slice it, and I feel like 19 colored sources is more than enough for meeting my color requirements. Mishra's Factory just fills in the extra lands that I need to cast big stuff like Wrath of God and Planeswalker's, while being more than just a land. It's synergetic with Wrath of God, allowing me to wipe the board without losing "my creatures." It's sometimes invaluable as a blocker, especially to help the Planeswalker's survive long enough to get into a dominant position. It gives me a clock against combo decks, and they can be a good alternate win condition against any deck.

However, in light of all this, Mishra's Factory is still a questionable choice. How much does the deck lose by cutting it? What matchups become worse? Does it weaken the deck overall to cut it?

If Mishra's Factory ends up being very lackluster to me in the future, similar to how Standstill was, it's possible that it could get the boot altogether. This would open to deck up to being able to go 4c, with a red splash, without weakening the manabase anymore than it is currently (colored duals would replace colorless nonbasic lands, so actually, the manabase would become stronger). I could definitely see a UWbr version without Mishra's Factory being a metagame monster. I guess more playtesting is necessary.

Keep in mind that I haven't been running Predict's forever. They are the most recent change to the deck, and they came in after I added Jace, the Mind Sculptor. That means I haven't really had a chance to determine whether old mandatory cards like Mishra's Factory still deserve space or not. It could be quite possible, especially now with the banning of Mystical Tutor (i.e less necessary to have a clock vs combo), that dropping Factory altogether and splashing red could be the right direction to go.

One thing that I really like about this idea, is that although the deck loses a blocker that can be used to protect its Planeswalker's, it makes the opponent's instant speed removal like Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt completely irrelevant.

The deck could easily drop 1-2 Counterspells, maybe even 1 Predict, for 1-2 Firespouts maindeck. That also opens up the sideboard to running Grim Lavamancer. Grim Lavamancer demolishes Goblins and Merfolk, which were the only significantly problematic matchups the deck really has, besides Dredge.

Hmm... much to think about.

€.: Sry, I assumed that your post was the first, after reading the "real" 1st post and also his explanation about Predict in the LS thread I get the idea of pros/cons of the card, but I still believe that Standstill would be the better call.

Standstill is better in Landstill decks that are built to get the most out of it. Once you warp Landstill to the extent that this deck has, Standstill is no longer a good card in the deck. Predict is epicly good in this deck. Most people look at it on paper and assume it sucks because Threshold decks used to run it 3 years ago and they don't anymore, but the card actually is really really good in this deck. You'd be pleasantly suprised.

1) CB / Top is still awesome. If it's not, you already have some cards you're going to board out.

Yes, it is. I've been using CounterTop in Landstill for about 2 years now, and it's damn good. Getting people to accept this, much different story. I'm glad you have come to the same conclusion as me.

2) Predict: I played 4, but unfortunately I did'nt see them very often. But when played, they really always were a draw 2 for 1U. 3 might be enough, though.

I'm not sure the right number myself, but 3 is the lowest I'd go. 3-4 Predict is the way to go, and I'll continue to play with 4 for now. If for whatever reason I start having games where 4 is too much, I'll go back down to 3.

3) Planeswalkers: I have the feeling that 4 is 1 too much. As I said, I had to play a light version so I ran Hoofprints of the Stag (idea from The Epic Control) as they synergize with about everything else in this deck: additional important CC2 for CB, fast kill with active Top / Jace or Brainstorm, cheap & resistent, spreading the type of wincons (Walkers <-> Enchantment). I even made room for a single DoJ, but it really is too slow. But on the other hand I didn't like Factories without active CB / Top as they ate all this otherwise unimportant removal.

I think 4 is perfect. The 2/2 split has been working beautifully for me. Hoofprints is nice in the fact that it's 2cc for Counterbalance, but I have my Counterbalance curve in check already, and Hoofprints does not compare in power level to the Planeswalker's. Not even close.

4) This deck really needs 1-2 Vedalken Shackles (admitted, it was risky, but I ran them in the vindicate slot). They are badass with 10+ U-Lands. They destroy every aggressive strategy if used wisely. They stall the board after a WoG if something gets through CB. They force the opponent to overextend which makes WoG even stronger. Please try them.

Shackles is a great card, my problem with it is that I'm already running slow engines with CounterTop, PredictTop, and the Planeswalkers. Shackles is such a heavy mana investment for the card advantage/creature control, and I'm not sure if it would be fast enough to answer decks like Goblins and Merfolk before its irrelevant. I would not put them in my Vindicate spots. However, they are definitely worth trying, at least as sideboard cards. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll try to test them when I get a chance.

Hanni

06-22-2010, 09:14 AM

To shake things up, I want to expand a little further on the idea of dropping Mishra's Factory for a 4c version.

U/W/r/b PCC

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [U] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Scrubland
2 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [U] Plateau
2 [IN] Island (2)
2 [P3] Plains (2)

// Spells
1 [PRE] Ajani Vengeant
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [SHM] Firespout
2 [JGC] Vindicate
1 [BD] Diabolic Edict

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BD] Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [BRB] Wrath of God
SB: 4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus

This is just an extremely rough draft. Thoughts?

Mr. Forsberg

06-23-2010, 02:58 PM

I do not really have anything to add about the deck, other than that I think it looks really strong on paper.

I just have one minor thing I would like to ask of you (and every one else at The Source); please use the [ cards], [ /cards] (without the spaces) tags when you write posts with card names in them!

Hanni

07-06-2010, 01:04 AM

I just have one minor thing I would like to ask of you (and every one else at The Source); please use the [ cards], [ /cards] (without the spaces) tags when you write posts with card names in them!

I would have done that sooner, but I couldn't figure out how to get it to work. Then I realized, it's , not [card].

Anyway, I'm suprised there's absolutely no interest in this deck. I remember about a year ago, there was a high demand for a new thread + primer to my approach on Landstill (maindeck Counterbalance), and I had started it, but never got around to finishing it. Then a year later, some more cards saw print and I did some more innovating, and this is the current end result. Unfortunately, it seems like all of those who were interested in the deck about a year ago are gone.

Anyway, relative to what I said before, Mishra's Factory has been nothing short of lackluster for me. It rarely swings, it's horrible as a defender for so many reasons, and it's just been useless.

That said, I was reminded by Aggro Zombies of a card called [cards]Kor Haven, that does exactly what I've been wanting Mishra's Factory to do for a while.

There's also a new card seeing print, called Mystifying Maze.

Mystifying Maze
Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
4, T: Exile target attacking creature an opponent controls. At the beginning of the next end step, return it to the battlefield tapped under its owner's control.

Not exactly amazing, but a much better replacement for Mishra's Factory.

Anyway, until that sees print and I'm able to start testing it, this is what I've done to the deck for now:

U/W/b Walker/Balance

Lands (23)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven

Spells (37)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Doom Blade
2 Vindicate

Sideboard (15)
4 Innocent Blood
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Meddling Mage
4 Relic of Progenitus

Kor Haven absolutely deserved a spot. Any extra Kor Haven effects, if I feel myself wanting more, will become the new Maze, since they aren't Legendary. Multiple Mazes are only going to be tapping for mana, since the ability itself is very expensive, so the correct number is something I would need to determine in playtesting. For now, I decided to cut the rest of the Factories for a stronger manabase (i.e more colored sources).

Aside from Kor Haven and the new Maze, are there any other utility lands that people think would be worth it in here?

Academy Ruins
Dust Bowl
Wasteland
Tolaria West
Celestial Colonnade
Creeping Tar Pit

Those are a few that I can think of off the top of my head for right now. I do not want Tolaria West, considering it would be run as a spell not a land, and I don't run Cunning Wish, which is a stronger 3 mana tutor.

Academy Ruins sounds decent when I bring the 3 EE's from the board into the maindeck, but I'm not sure if it's worth it or not. If I ran Vedalken Shackles or EE maindeck, Ruins would be alot more attractive to me.

Dust Bowl is an interesting option, since it can handle random problematic lands, but I already run Vindicate. I'm still considering this a possibility.

Wasteland seems worse than Dust Bowl without a full playset, and I really don't want to run multiple lands that are designed to cost me a land drop. I want to consistently make land drops as a control deck, not lose them.

The manlands, just like Mishra's Factory, just don't seem relevant. They open me up to otherwise dead removal that the opponent has, are much worse defensively than cards like Kor Haven and the new Maze, and attacking with manlands as a win condition seems subpar compared to winning with the Planeswalker's.

Any other good utility lands I'm forgetting?

EDIT: In hindsight, and after testing a few games with the new manabase, it may be better to just limit the utility lands to the 1-of Kor Haven and keep the stronger manabase. The decks manabase was already consistent before, with the 4 Factories, but making the manabase stronger in a control deck is never a bad thing. Making sure I can constantly hit UU on turn 2 and WW on turn 4 is important, and I'm up to 18 blue sources and 16 white sources now. The deck can still afford to cut some colored sources for more utility lands, I just don't know if any utility lands are worth weakening the manabase at this time. Kor Haven is a keeper, but the new Maze may prove to be too expensive to realistically use.

I'm enjoying the current removal setup, but I am unsure if a 3/3 split of Predict/Counterspell would be better. I'll continue to test the configuration I have above, but if I find myself wanting more Counterspells and needing less Predict's, I'll make the change and then test it.

Other than that, I feel as though the deck is absolutely rock solid. This deck is by far the most powerful deck I've ever played with, in terms of sheer power. It has the ability to control every aspect of the gamestate, against nearly every deck in the format (minus a few, like Dredge and Lands), and does so without mercy. CounterTop is absolutely cruel in a deck that can wipe the board clean with WoG and then proceed to lock the opponent out, and both Jace and Elspeth can be cruel at locking the opponent out too. I'm very surpised that this deck isn't getting more attention, because it certainly deserves it.

routlaw

07-06-2010, 07:40 PM

Hanni

07-06-2010, 08:32 PM

I've been following this thread since you started and like the new manabase a lot. The factories just don't work like you want them to in practice, I saw this while testing against a Landstill player last week. Opposing decks were better off pointing wastelands at dual lands instead of Factories and making the Landstill player trip over their colors.

Me too. As I said, this deck was originally a classic U/W Landstill deck many years ago, and I've been slowly evolving it ever since. Predict was a fairly recent change, and Mishra's Factories were still in the deck because of the Standstill's it ran prior to Predict. Mishra's Factory is a rediculously underpowered card, and without Standstill, there's no real reason to keep them in the deck. Kor Haven does exactly what I wanted Mishra's Factory to do, but so much better, for so many reasons.

Mentioning the strength of the manabase, it's actually kind of funny. I played against several mana denial decks since I 'fixed' the manabase.

I had one opponent drop a Back to Basics in both game 1 and game 2, and I have no idea why he didn't board them out for game 2 when they did absolutely nothing game 1. I run 8 fetchlands, which obviously are great against Back to Basics, and 6 basics to grab with those fetchlands. My deck can easily operate under a Back to Basics, with very little disturbance to my regularly scheduled programming.

In another game, I had dropped a turn 1 Top against a deck that casted 2 Sinkholes and 2 Rancid Earth's. I had a FoW in hand, but kept letting him blow my lands up. I just kept digging with Top, and eventually chaining Predict's, making a land drop every turn. Eventually I ramped up to 3 Islands and 2 Plains in play, despite his efforts, and I had the FoW for Pox. Jace came down and fatesealed the game away. He left after g1. I guess he didn't like playing against a deck that didn't let him do anything relevant.

I've also had several games where my opponent's were playing much less dedicated land destruction/mana denial, with Wasteland as their only spell in that department. Single Wasteland's just seem so laughable after triumphing against dedicated mana denial decks. They almost never cut me off of my appropriate color sources, and the best thing they've been able to do is keep my low enough on land drops early so that I can't ramp into my 4cc bombs right away. The best use is in decks like Merfolk that also run counters like Daze to generate tempo while beating down, where they can be successful as a tempo generator more so than landscrew.

With my new manabase, this deck does not lose to itself because of its own manabase issues, even in the face mana denial like Wasteland. This is a huge progression for the decks consistency overall. I'm pretty confident that I'm going to just keep my manabase exactly as it is, 3c with 1 Kor Haven as my only utility land.

Question in general-do you feel that a move from black to red would help out the Merfolk/Goblins (and to a lesser extent, Zoo) matchup? I'm kind of worried about Merfolk in particular-resolving a 4cmc sorcery on them through Cursecatcher, Daze, and Wasteland seems nearly impossible. The idea of boarding in Grim Lavamancer after those decks board out at least some of their removal in particular sounds very good.

I had considered it, but honestly, black works just fine for improving these matchups. While red is a stronger splash for these matchups, I don't really think it's a necessary splash.

These are my current sideboard strategies for Merfolk and Zoo:

Zoo
-1 Predict
-4 Force of Will
-2 Vindicate
+4 Innocent Blood
+3 Engineered Explosives

This basically transforms the deck into a classic board control deck like old Rifter and MWC. The deck goes up to 16 MD removal spells to make sure Zoo does little to no damage with creatures throughout the entire game, and CounterTop (and the 2 Counterspells) eventually lock them out of a possible burn plan. Zoo can't push any damage through, lock pieces like Elspeth, Jace, and CounterTop get resolved, and it's gg.

The deck doesn't need Force of Will, because 2-for-1'ing yourself and losing 1 life is much worse than casting a removal spell to do the same thing. Vindicate has no necessary artifact/enchantment targets and is slow at 3cc for its effect. Most of the time, EE will be set to 1 to wipe away their fast starts.

Merfolk
-4 Force of Will
-3 Counterbalance
+4 Innocent Blood
+3 Engineered Explosives

Same general idea as the Zoo matchup; bring in an overkill amount of removal to transform into a classic board control deck. This time, the deck goes up to 18 MD removal spells. Force of Will is bad in this matchup just like it is bad in Zoo, since we have no way to capitalize on the tempo it offers, Vial largely invalidates it, it's not worth the 2-for-1 to FoW their Vial, and simply casting removal spells is better overall. 8 1cc removal spells play very well through Daze/Cursecatcher, and the deck has more than enough cheap spot removal to get to the midgame, where Wrath of God and Engineered Explosives are capable of being used.

Without overcommitting to the board, Merfolk has a very weak and easily answered threat base, and when they overcommit, they are susceptible to massive card disadvantage from spells like Wrath of God. They desperately need to gain card advantage to overwhelm the 1-for-1 trades. Standstill is very important for them; unfortunately, I run Predict's, which are just as powerful a draw engine for me as Standstill is for them. Once I land a Planeswalker on a clean board, I usually get too far ahead for them to recover.

Counterbalance is lackluster in this matchup for a number of reasons. Active Vial makes Counterbalance suck. The need to set EE @ 2 frequently (premeptive EE @ 2 owns Standstills, btw) makes Counterbalance somewhat bad. The most important cc range vs them is 2cc and 3cc, where I have 2 Vindicate as my only 3cc spell, and my 2cc spell count drops too low after boarding.

---

Now of course, bringing in Grim Lavamancer would be stronger against Merfolk, since they run no creature removal and it's a raw card advantage machine against them. If you expect alot of fishies, Grim Lavamancer is definitely the way to pull out their eyeballs.

Otherwise, I'd say that the black splash is just as good as a red splash against Zoo, after boarding. Firespout is great, but largely unecessary considering the postboard removal package the deck has with the black splash.

I plan to stay with the black splash, since it offers greater diversity against the entire field, and I feel black is just as good as red at handling Zoo. Red has a slight edge against Merfolk and Goblins, but I feel that black can adequately answer both of those matchups. Unless the field is expected to be heavy Merfolk and/or Goblins, I wouldn't consider splashing red. Besides, if I expected a heavy field of Merfolk and Goblins, I'd be playing Naya Sligh anyway.

Vindicate is a great catchall answer, and Innocent Blood can answer alot of randomness too. Wrath of God maindeck is more universally useful than Firespout in the maindeck.

I wanted to bring up your sideboard-do you find that Engineered Explosives causes issues with Top and Counterbalance? I run EE main in New Horizons, where you only have four 2 cmc permanents (Goyf) and no 1 cmc permanents and it works well there because of it, but here I would think it would be problematic with the CounterTop components. I think you are right on with Meddling Mage and Relic though, those are awesome here.

In short, no. I sideboard these instead of maindeck them for a reason. I tend to only bring them into matchups where I truly need them, and most of the time, it's not being set to 2. Against Zoo, they are almost always being set to 1 to handle their fast starts. Against decks like Enchantress, they get set to 3 to wipe away most of the problematic spells like Enchantress' Presence, Solitary Confinement, etc. Even in situations against certain decks where I do need to set it to 2, like against Merfolk, I board out my Counterbalances. In the rare situations, against some matchups, where I do have to pop it for 2 and I blow up my own Counterbalance, it is very easy to replay another Counterbalance because I run 4. Counterbalance is my only permament affected by EE, and conflicts between the two are so rare that it's largely a non-issue.

(I'd also like to point out how less of a conflict this deck has with EE and Counterbalance than ITF (It's the Fear) had, which ran Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance alongside EE and Deed, and that deck still operated fairly well.)

Meddling Mage is awesome against quite a few matchups, not just the obvious "Tendrils Storm Combo." I bring them in against Ichorid, for example. Relic of Progenitus is a nice catch all answer too, and handles alot of decks like, Ichorid and Lands.

However, I've been considering running Pithing Needles instead of Relics, I'm not sure yet. It all depends on how much of a ressurgence Ichorid sees, since that's the only matchup where I truly need them.

I'm working on a build with red instead of black but still testing it, just wanted your opinion from your own testing if you have any one some of the above questions while I play around with things more.

The red splash is perfectly valid, but like I said, I'll be sticking to the black splash myself.

menace13

07-07-2010, 05:51 AM

Hanni, Fiatlux has built a sort of list resembling your's and will be working on Predict as an engine. The list:
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
-----------------------

4 Dark Confidant
-----------------------
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Daze
3 Divert
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Lim-DA?l's Vault
4 Predict
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thopter Foundry
---------------
36 other spells
Sideboard

1 Back to Basics
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Hydroblast
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle
2 Propaganda
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wipe Away

just went 3-1 last nite

Hanni

07-07-2010, 02:34 PM

Fiatlux

Who's that?

list

To be honest, that list has more in common with CounterTop Thopter (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16836-Deck-CounterTop-Thopter) than it does with my deck, but it's nice to see people using Predict as their draw engine.

menace13

07-07-2010, 05:00 PM

Who's that?

To be honest, that list has more in common with CounterTop Thopter (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16836-Deck-CounterTop-Thopter) than it does with my deck, but it's nice to see people using Predict as their draw engine.

Funny he asked the same of you.
A friend whom plays control( i take it you are asking in earnest), Online only finishes in the money often. Morgan had told him about you using Predicts and he tried it out in the Dailies was impressed by it. He went crazy on M.Tutor,E. Tutor and 1 Doomsday pile in addition to using it as a draw.

chokin

07-07-2010, 07:19 PM

Hanni, is there a reason you're against running the Thopter engine? It seems like it could easily fit into your deck. It's also interesting to see the virtual card advantage (CBTop) and real card advantage (Predict) run side by side again. I haven't seen or run them together since pre-Goyf times when I played UWb Fish.

This deck is basically a shell for a lot of other existing decks I think. Like swap some stuff around, you wind up with Thopter Control, or Landstill, or Ultimate Walker. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but it may be useful to look to those decks for random ideas and tech. It seems like you're against using your graveyard to recur things. For example, you don't run Crucible+Wasteland or Academy Ruins+EE. Is there a reason?

I saw that you noted that red is another viable splash. That's kind of the direction I took with the deck I'm working on (UWr Thopter). Basically it runs Firespout instead of Wrath (pros and cons to this) and the 3 slot Thopter engine (2/1 Foundry and Sword) as a way to recover and end the game faster. I also run an Echoing Truth to deal with the possibility of Iona instead of black for Doom Blade.

Hanni

07-07-2010, 11:35 PM

Funny he asked the same of you.
A friend whom plays control( i take it you are asking in earnest), Online only finishes in the money often. Morgan had told him about you using Predicts and he tried it out in the Dailies was impressed by it. He went crazy on M.Tutor,E. Tutor and 1 Doomsday pile in addition to using it as a draw.

I was just asking who he was because Morgan Coke also mentioned his name, and I had never heard of him, that's all.

Hanni, is there a reason you're against running the Thopter engine? It seems like it could easily fit into your deck. It's also interesting to see the virtual card advantage (CBTop) and real card advantage (Predict) run side by side again. I haven't seen or run them together since pre-Goyf times when I played UWb Fish.

Yes. As a control deck, I don't want to play combos for the sake of playing combos. CounterTop is a good combo because both pieces of the combo are valuable on their own, especially in the case of Sensei's Divining Top, since it's the best card in the entire deck.

Both pieces of the Thopter/Sword combo are worthless without the other. It may not be as disruptable as the Painter/Grindstone combo (which gets hit by creature removal), but it still bites it to Qasali Pridemage and Krosan Grip. I know the same can be said of Counterbalance, but Counterbalance can protect itself from Qasali, and even when it gets hit by Grip, it doesn't cause myself to get 2-for-1'd (or 3-for-1'd if I used Enlightened Tutor to grab one of the pieces).

I'm also not a fan of card disdvantage in control decks. I realize that Enlightened Tutor is capable of recouping from the card disdvantage by putting virtual card advantage permanents into play (like Moat), but it's still counterproductive to me. I will say that I do like the synergy that Enlightened Tutor has with Counterbalance; basically being a 1cc Counterspell. Other than that, I'd rather just Brainstorm/Top into the cards I want, rather than Tutor for them.

I realize that if left unchecked, the Thopter/Sword combo can win games. The lifegain is relevant against aggro decks, and swarming the board with 1/1 tokens every turn results in a dominating finish. I use Worm Harvest in my UGw Bant deck, so I know what swarming the board with 1/1 tokens feels like :)

The thing is, though, I feel like my Planeswalker's are 1 card combos. Both Elspeth and Jace, on their lonesome, can win games in dominating fashion. They do not require card disadvantage tutors and don't require a combo to be assembled, either. This makes the deck alot more consistent, and consistency is probably the most important quality that a control deck should have. I'm not saying that Thopter/Sword isn't consistent, but it does trade some consistency for explosiveness. If W want to assemble a combo in my deck (aside from CounterTop), putting both Elspeth and Jace into play is teh nutz. Overkill, but nasty nonetheless.

I am not bashing the CounterTop Thopter deck in any way, I think it is a solid deck. However, this is my opinion of why I think my approach is better for control as an archetype, and why I don't include Thopter/Sword.

This deck is basically a shell for a lot of other existing decks I think. Like swap some stuff around, you wind up with Thopter Control, or Landstill, or Ultimate Walker. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but it may be useful to look to those decks for random ideas and tech. It seems like you're against using your graveyard to recur things. For example, you don't run Crucible+Wasteland or Academy Ruins+EE. Is there a reason?

Of course, it can be a shell for alot of other existing decks. It used to be a Landstill deck, so the shell from Landstill, especially before I dropped the Factories, was very evident. Most CounterTop shells use the same core cards, too. It's hard to make a blue based control deck look radically different from other blue based control decks, since so much of the deck(s) are staples.

You say that I can look to those decks for random ideas and tech, and that's always possibile with similar decks, like back when I was building UWb Fish, I had both Thresh and Slivers to look at. I do want to point out that I've been working on this deck well before Ultimate Walker, and especially before Thopter Control, were ever thought of. Meaning, I've already looked at those decks for ideas.

I don't need to use my graveyard to recur things. Why should I open up my deck to graveyard hate, when there is nothing worth running to do so? Crucible would be nice if I had trouble making my land drops every turn, but with my current draw engine (specifically Top), this is not an issue. Paying 3 mana for an artifact that helps me make my land drops every turn is fairly weak for its cost, and unecessary in this deck.

Also, why would I want to assemble a Wastelock? Wastelocking requires me to lose my land drop every turn to try and lock my opponent out of color sources or total lands. I want to make land drops every turn, not cause my opponent to lose theirs. Wasteland in control decks is just dumb to me. If I want removal for enemy manlands, I have Swords, Doom Blade, and Vindicate. The only justifiable purpse I can see to running Wasteland in a control deck is to knock out utility lands like an opposing Academy Ruins, which is not only extremely fringe, but is also answerable by other means.

Ruins/EE isn't bad, and it is a possible consideration. The reason I'm not currently running it is because I run no way to tutor for Ruins (and I refuse to run Tolaria West because I think it's horrible) and I don't run EE maindeck (I feel that Vindicate is stronger, especially with me running CounterTop).

Adding a singleton Ruins to enable Ruins/EE in postboard games is a viable option, but I just haven't found myself wanting/needing that sort of effect so far in testing. However, it would be very easy to cut a Tundra, Scrubland, or an Island for an Academy Ruins, without hurting the deck much at all.

tl;dr there aren't any graveyard shenanigans that I feel this deck needs to run, and being independant of the graveyard is just another strength to this decks consistency and resilience to postboard hate.

I saw that you noted that red is another viable splash. That's kind of the direction I took with the deck I'm working on (UWr Thopter). Basically it runs Firespout instead of Wrath (pros and cons to this) and the 3 slot Thopter engine (2/1 Foundry and Sword) as a way to recover and end the game faster. I also run an Echoing Truth to deal with the possibility of Iona instead of black for Doom Blade.

The red splash is strong against an aggro heavy metagame, consisting of decks like Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo. However, the black splash still does well against those decks, and I'd be playing Naya Sligh in a metagame dominated by Vial Aggro anyway.

chokin

07-08-2010, 01:55 AM

Hanni

07-08-2010, 02:56 AM

You make some valid arguments against the Thopter engine. Yes, the pieces are dead on their own, but you are also drawing tons of cards with Jace and Predict and cantrip and filtering with Top, Brainstorm, and fetches. I can't imagine that it would be difficult finding both halves and just winning from there.

Right, but instead of drawing a bunch of cards to try and assemble that combo, I can draw a bunch of cards and drop a Planeswalker. It's much easier and more consistent to drop a Planeswalker, and I'll likely have more business in hand because I spent less effort digging for the 2 card combo and more time worrying about keeping a healthy stock of control spells in hand.

Planeswalkers are very good. It just takes Jace until turn 9 at the earliest to ultimate. Elspeth deals 20 in 9 turns as well. That's if they are both uninterrupted and dropped on turn 4. I used to play Landstill, and I remember when some of my harder matches would end in draws because I couldn't win fast enough. Maybe I'm having flashbacks when I look at this deck ;)

Right, but this is a control deck. Winning on turn 9, the actual turn 9, doesn't mean the game wasn't won sooner. It's like playing Belcher; yea, you don't win with EtW until turn 3 or 4, but if you went off on turn 1, you actually won on turn 1 (of course they can answer EtW with EE or whatnot, but you get my point).

I've actually never popped an ultimate with Jace. My opponent's have always scooped once I've ramped it to 12+ counters. Something about me saying "keep," I guess.

Also, it's not the fact that Jace doesn't win until the actual turn 9. It's how he does it; if the opponent cannot draw any relevant cards, the game is won much sooner. If I have a grip of Counterspells for the one bomb they do manage to draw through fatesealing, they still lost before they actually lose the game.

Elspeth is the same way; yes, she won't win until the actual turn 9, but if the opponent simply cannot push anymore damage through the ground because you have an army of indestructible 1/1's, you haven't actually won the game, but you still won the game (speaking strictly against an aggro deck with groundbound attackers only, of course).

Thopter/Foundry takes more time and resources to assemble than dropping an Elspeth or Jace, and doesn't actually win the game immediately either. You can only make as many 1/1 tokens as you have mana, so it's still going to take a few turns before you have enough guys to swing for lethal.

Also, I haven't had many games that take forever, except for the control mirror. I'll admit, the control mirror is atrocious, and games can last for hours. Against everything else, this deck is much different than Landstill. CounterTop and 4 Planeswalker's accelerates this deck into winning much faster. It's difficult to explain why, and if you want a detailed explanation, I'll try to articulate words to do so... but if you simply play this deck, then play classic Landstill, you'll see a significant difference.

Crucible doesn't just have to recur Wasteland. You can Predict lands off the top of your library and then recover them. It's almost as if you drew 3 cards for 1U...well, with the preexisting investment of 3. But you get the idea. Maybe Wasteland locking is outdated tech since most decks run fairly stable manabases.

Well, Crucible is a Dark Confidant for land drops, basically. I understand that, and I didn't mean to put the card down. Crucible is still a good card, I just don't feel it's needed in this deck. I run alot of card advantage engines already.

The thing is, this deck runs a much lower curve than traditional Landstill decks, so it's not as important for me to keep making land drops past a certain point. It's still good to hit high land counts, so I can do things like drop a Planeswalker and still have mana open for a Counterspell, etc. It's just not as necessary for me to hit massive land counts like it was in Landstill.

The biggest problem I have with Crucible, is that it costs 3 mana for its effect, and it has to be played at sorcery speed. Once you compare that to the 2 mana for Counterbalance and 4 mana of the Planeswalker's, you can clearly see the power level difference.

I can understand Crucible being amazing in Landstill, since it synergizes with so much of the deck there, giving the deck recurring manlands, making additional Standstills dropped that much stronger, helping ramp to huge land totals for stronger Decree's, etc.

This deck isn't Landstill.

tl;dr As far as card advantage is concerned, I generate tons of that already, Top basically replaces it's ability to assist in my making land drops consistently, and it's too slow/costs too much mana for its effect (at least in this deck).

Your 3cc slot is looking pretty skinny. I know you briefly mentioned Shackles...and to me it seems like it needs to be in there as at least a 1 of. There isn't a ton of room, but I thought I'd bring up Trinket Mage and maybe a small box of goodies like Probasco did for his CBTop deck. I'm positive that your deck could easily support the 2 Ruins. Just a minor suggestion to bring to the table.

Agreed. The deck can't build it's curve to hit everything, especially when it needs to run (at least) 23 lands. 1cc and 2cc are the most important curves to keep in check because they are the most commonly played. 4cc just happens to get boosted because the bombs I want to cast cost 4 mana. Unfortunately, that makes the 3cc spot pretty skinny like you said. I compensate for that by running Counterspell and Vindicate to answer the 3cc spells that sneak through, or if I have a Jace and CounterTop out, fatesealing the stuff I can't Counterbalance.

If I was going to beef up the 3cc spot, it would be by running more Vindicates or some amount of Vedalken Shackles. Vedalken Shackles was suggested to me by Doks, and I'm still regarding that suggestion. It's one of the things I want to test at some point.

The only reason I've added Doom Blades and such instead of Shackles (aside from maintaining the 2cc curve), is because I was finding myself needing more fast, effecient removal for Merfolk and Zoo.

Against Merfolk, it can be hard to resolve a 3cc permanent through Waste/Daze before its irrelevant, and against Zoo, sometimes a 3cc+2cc spell is too slow to stop them in time. The early rush from Zoo, where they drop a guy turn 1, two guys on turn 2, followed by 1-3 more guys on turn 3, have been the only games where I've lost to Zoo (this happens in game 1 when I don't know what they are playing and don't keep a strong enough hand to stop their nuts draw). Doom Blade has helped give me more early effecient answers to stop them until I can get my card advantage engines going (CounterTop and Wrath of God in particular).

I do like how Vedalken Shackles can generate card advantage against aggro, but I also like how it can be an alternate win condition. Maybe instead of viewing it as creature removal, I should be viewing it as a win condition. I mean, it costs 1 mana less than Elspeth to cast, and it can effectively deal with aggro, arguably better than Elspeth. Much to think about.

I think that finding a way to fit Vedalken Shackles into the deck as a 1-of, at least for playtesting purposes, would be a good idea. I had been focusing on fixing the manabase before (when I was still running Factories), but now that I have finished that project, this will likely be my next.

As far as Trinket Mage goes, I would have to say no. This isn't a typical CounterTop deck; this deck has more in common with Landstill than it does with the traditional Bant/Supreme Blue CounterTop decks. I have no need for a 2/2 body; since I run no other creatures, it will be the target of my opponent's otherwise dead removal. I really want to keep my lands untapped for Counterspell/spinning Top/casting Predict/casting instant speed removal, and just like my argument for Crucible, Trinket Mage isn't worth spending 3 mana at sorcery speed for.

He can be a tutor for EE and Top, sure, but he only generates card advantage in-so-much that he leaves behind a 2/2 body. Since I have no need for a 2/2 body, which also die to my WoG's, it's not worth it.

For the 2U cost, I'd sooner run Cunning Wish, since it's instant speed, and can grab a more diverse selection of cards. I don't run Cunning Wish because it is too slow for its effect.

Trinket Mage is great in an aggro/control CounterTop shell like Supreme Blue, because that deck gains tremendous benefit from having a 2/2 body to compliment Goyf and such. My strategy, on the other hand, is purposely designed to not run creatures.

As far as Ruins go, I wouldn't want to run 2. They are Legendary, and totally unecessary. If I was running something like Thopter/Foundry, I could justify running 2, but in my deck, they have no maindeck interactions, and only interact with cards from my sideboard. I wouldn't risk losing games from mana instability because I draw both Ruins early. I'd much sooner run 2 Kor Haven's before I'd consider running 2 Ruins, at any rate.

However, running a singleton Academy Ruins is not a bad idea (as I've said before). I just don't think it's relevant enough to worry about right now, but I will playtest games with them in mind. If it occurs enough where I bring EE's in postboard and I'm wishing Kor Haven is/was a Ruins*, I'll drop an Island or something for one.

*Not necessarily in replacement to Kor Haven, it can also be in addition to. The reason I chose Kor Haven is because it's easy to monitor as being a Ruins, since it's ran as a 1-of, which is what Ruins would be. If that makes any sense, it's hard to explain what I mean.

heroicraptor

07-08-2010, 03:14 AM

You double posted in one post. (You have the text twice.)

I do really like this deck.

Hanni

07-08-2010, 03:16 AM

You double posted in one post. (You have the text twice.)

You were reading the thread while I was doing my editing. When I make long posts, I edit and re-edit while I read and re-read. That did happen, where it copy/pasted the entire text, so it was 'double posted,' but I fixed it before I even read your response. Thanks for catching it though, means someones reading it :)

Iranon

07-08-2010, 04:55 AM

I also prefer the Enlightened Tutor Method over the destruction suite. There is a ridiculous variety of cards that are strong enough on their own in the anti-creature department and can be devastatingl if you fetch the right one. Engineered Explosives, Porphyry Nodes, Runed Halo, Moat... maybe even Story Circle or Humility.
Being able to fetch anti-artifact/enchantment stuff, countertop, hate and utility like Pithing Needle or Relic of Progenitus is a very big bonus, as is the ability to counter things reliably under Counterbalance.

I do not like the Thopter Foundry win though; even with tutors I prefer the walkers... while not fetchable, both can win through a Humility/Moat lockdown.

Hanni

07-08-2010, 05:10 AM

The Enlightened Tutor method creates card disadvantage and is vulnerable to hate. Wrath of God doesn't provide the same virtual card advantage, but cleaning the board is still a very powerful effect. Moat/Humility die to enchantment removal. Qasali is everywhere, and Krosan Grip from the board isn't even respondable.

I'm not trying to bash that approach, but this isn't the deck for it. The design of Thopter/Foundry is different, and trying to blend the two decks won't work. If you prefer the E Tutor method but prefer Planeswalker's over Thopter/Sword, just cut the Thopter/Sword combo out of CounterTop Thopter, and add Planeswalker's. It's much easier to do that then to retool this deck to take advantage of E Tutor.

EDIT: I've decided to go with a 3/3 split of Predict and Counterspell. I have plenty enough card advantage with all of my other engines that 3 Predict is plenty, and I've had a few games where I've really wanted the 3rd Counterspell. Counterspell is so valuable to me because it answers what Counterbalance can't, and UU is just such an easy cost for a hardcounter. I especially like having Counterspells when I'm using Jace, because if they finally hit a runner runner when I'm fatesealing, I can just counter the damn thing.

Also, I'm going to try testing a 1-of Vedalken Shackles. So:

-1 Predict
-1 Doom Blade
+1 Counterspell
+1 Vedalken Shackles

Oh, and I'm going to try and get this thread renamed (again). U/W/x CounterTop Walker. That's about as streamlined as it gets, what do you guys think?

Mon,Goblin Chief

07-08-2010, 11:02 AM

I really enjoy the way this deck is set up, tons of card advantage feeding the removal and CBTop to lock up the mid/lategame (not to mention it means you have a very flexible MD out to Loam).
Predict in particular is a sweet find. I'm running CAB's Jace-control deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17986-CAB-JaceTM) that uses Treasure Hunt instead (with a far higher landcount, obviously) and I've found that a draw-engine that only demands you to find some other part of the draw-engine to work at full potential is far easier to set up than Standstill. Predict, while more dependant on its set-up spells than Treasure Hunt (it basically almost always only cycles if you don't have Top/BS), has the big advantage of not needing the high landcount Treasure Hunt demands, which makes it an incredibly solid CA-engine for a more regular control deck. In short, this deck looks excellent, good work.

A few questions as food for thought:

- have just two Vindicate been enough to reliably answer Aether Vial? I have four MD EEs in Jace and I still find myself unable to answer Vial in time far too often for my liking. Even without it completely ruining the draw-engine, it has still been a thorn in my side. The acceleration it provides to Goblins in particular is pretty lethal, in other decks it's somewhat survivable. Vial should be even more annoying for you in general, considering you run the CB-lock. I'd ask what you think about replacing the two Doomblades with MD Explosives, but I assume you need the 2s for Counterbalance purposes.

- not too recreate the discussion from the Landstill thread here, but out of interest: Have you tested simply running the full set of Jaces instead of the Elspeth/Jace mix? I don't want to convince you to change it and I don't want to start the discussion about which is better again, just curious as to what the results were if you did test it.

- you can probably replace the second Scrubland with another Fetch, three black-producing lands should be enough to not get all of them wasted and it would make the manabase even more resilient/consistent. It also provides you with another shuffle-effect for Top.

- going from my experience with the Jace-deck, the Ruins/EE lock is incredibly hard to beat for a lot of decks. I can see were it has some non-synergy with the CB's in the maindeck and you wouldn't want to focus on it there, but I think you might very much enjoy it in those post-SB games when you go for board-control instead of the CB lock. Running a singleton is also a lot less random than it might seem in a deck with 4 Top, 4 Brainstorm and the Predicts. You should usually be able to find it once you hit enough mana to abuse it. It would give you a post-SB way to lock out the decks that don't care about Counterbalance.

- I also tested Kor Haven in the Jace deck and found it clunky as hell (and I run 25 manasources). I do have actual Mazes, though. Is it really holding up in testing so far? As far as Mystifying Maze goes, my experience with Kor Haven in Jace makes me think they'll be a waste of space. 5 mana a turn (counting the Maze) to negate one creature seems far too situational to be any good.

- I assume the Innocent Blood in the SB have been chosen over other removal like Path or Oust because of Iona, Inkwell, Progenitus and Nimble Mongoose? Has them being worse after turn 1-2 against Goblins, Fish and anything running Bob/Pridemage plus a slew of other creatures been worth the benefits?

Finally, out of interest: against which decks do you board out the CB-engine?

Hanni

07-08-2010, 04:02 PM

In short, this deck looks excellent, good work.

Thanks :)

- have just two Vindicate been enough to reliably answer Aether Vial? I have four MD EEs in Jace and I still find myself unable to answer Vial in time far too often for my liking. Even without it completely ruining the draw-engine, it has still been a thorn in my side. The acceleration it provides to Goblins in particular is pretty lethal, in other decks it's somewhat survivable. Vial should be even more annoying for you in general, considering you run the CB-lock. I'd ask what you think about replacing the two Doomblades with MD Explosives, but I assume you need the 2s for Counterbalance purposes.

In short: no. Against the decks that play Aether Vial, if they land one on turn 1, I usually have to try and alter the way I play. This means making Brainstorm/Top draw into more removal and less countermagic. They will sometimes still hardcast stuff, so Counterspell isn't completely dead, but I'd much rather have a grip of removal.

The acceleration it provides to Goblins is not an issue if I can slow down a lethal assault with Swords to Plowshares, and FoW if I need to, long enough to ramp enough lands through Rishadan Port/Wasteland to cast WoG. Casting WoG for 3+ CA is oftentimes enough for me to get ahead, so long as they aren't chaining Ringleaders together right away. On a clear board, both Elspeth and Jace can seal the game up. Game 1 is tricky if they land a Vial, but not imposible. If they don't play a turn 1 Vial, the matchup gets alot easier. The builds without Rishadan Port are much easier to play against, also.

Postboard, I completely domolish Goblins. They cannot keep anything on the board for too long, not even Vial. Oftentimes they will gas out, and even if they do manage to chain a few Ringleaders, they still can't keep up with my card advantage/quality in the long haul. My deck is designed to be a superior mid-late game deck, and a few cards drawn off the back of Ringleader doesn't change the role assignment for this matchup.

Merfolk is similar to Goblins, except it's a little more difficult because Daze/Cursecatcher can be harder to read than Wasteland/Port, and Islandwalking can invalidate Elspeth as a defender. Postboard, I completely domolish Merfolk for the same reasons I demolish Goblins. Something about running 18 removal spells, 6 of which can remove multiple creatures, seems to be enough to stop an aggressive front.

I'd ask what you think about replacing the two Doomblades with MD Explosives, but I assume you need the 2s for Counterbalance purposes.

I really can't afford to cut them, because of my Counterbalance curve. Before I fit them in there, I still had the same curve, because I cut a Predict and a Counterspell for them. I'd rather just have a worse g1 against Vial Aggro, and not weaken my other matchups. Vial Aggro becomes such a positive match in games 2 and 3, and the matchup is not an autoloss in game 1 regardless, so I'm fine with that.

- not too recreate the discussion from the Landstill thread here, but out of interest: Have you tested simply running the full set of Jaces instead of the Elspeth/Jace mix? I don't want to convince you to change it and I don't want to start the discussion about which is better again, just curious as to what the results were if you did test it.

As I argued in the Landstill thread, there are many advantages to running a 2/2 split. I had thought about situations where maybe I would want to run a full 4 Jace and 0 Elspeth after the discussions in the Landstill thread, but ultimately decided that Elspeth is just too savage. Jace is a bit more conditional than Elspeth, meaning he needs more conditions to be met before I'm able to cast him. Elspeth also has some profound effects in this deck, like forcing the opponent to overextend, which makes Wrath of God stronger. Elspeth, on the whole, has been much stronger for me against aggro than Jace has been. I can go on and on about the strengths of Elspeth, but I'm very content with the 2/2 split.

(If I didn't run Wrath of God, Elspeth would be much weaker, and it is possible that I'd find 4 Jace 0 Elspeth to be optimal in that circumstance.)

Also, I have alot of games where I'm capable of getting both Elspeth and Jace into play at the same time. Having only one Planeswalker in play does not always guaruntee a win, but having two in play has sealed every single game I've played in so far. They work well in conjunction with eachother, because of how versatile each on is on their own. Sometimes, I'll just clock with Elspeth's 4/4 flyer while I draw a bunch of cards with Jace, using creature removal on any guys they drop. Sometimes, I'll have Elspeth make a wall of 1/1 defenders to keep both Planeswalker's defended, while Jace fateseals for the win. Etc etc

- you can probably replace the second Scrubland with another Fetch, three black-producing lands should be enough to not get all of them wasted and it would make the manabase even more resilient/consistent. It also provides you with another shuffle-effect for Top.

If I was going to replace the Scrubland, it would be with a basic Plains, I'm not sure that I'd want to run more than 8 fetchlands. So far, the manabase has been performing exceptionally well. Keep in mind, that the Scrubland used to be a Mishra's Factory, which didn't produce any colored mana at all.

The deck has 18 blue sources, 16 white sources, and 12 black sources. Right now, that seems to be a perfect mix.

- going from my experience with the Jace-deck, the Ruins/EE lock is incredibly hard to beat for a lot of decks. I can see were it has some non-synergy with the CB's in the maindeck and you wouldn't want to focus on it there, but I think you might very much enjoy it in those post-SB games when you go for board-control instead of the CB lock. Running a singleton is also a lot less random than it might seem in a deck with 4 Top, 4 Brainstorm and the Predicts. You should usually be able to find it once you hit enough mana to abuse it. It would give you a post-SB way to lock out the decks that don't care about Counterbalance.

That's true, Ruins/EE would be nice in the postboard games against aggro where I'm going for a heavy board control theme. Probably overkill, but it's definitely something I wouldn't be upset to have.

- I also tested Kor Haven in the Jace deck and found it clunky as hell (and I run 25 manasources). I do have actual Mazes, though. Is it really holding up in testing so far? As far as Mystifying Maze goes, my experience with Kor Haven in Jace makes me think they'll be a waste of space. 5 mana a turn (counting the Maze) to negate one creature seems far too situational to be any good.

Kor Haven has been excellent for me. It was probably clunky for you because you run the Mazes. Dropping a Planeswalker on a clear board with Kor Haven in play is very strong. Kor Haven indefinitely protects my Planeswalker's from a single attacker. Once I find a removal spell, I get rid of the creature, and the Planeswalker continues doing it's thing. If they resolve another creature that I don't have an immediate answer for, Kor Haven is there to protect me until I draw into an answer. Kor Haven has helped me win multiple games now; I am extremely pleased with Kor Haven and would never consider dropping it at this point.

Elspeth and Kor Haven is an absolutely savage combo. The opponent has to rediculously overextend to prevent getting shut out by a horde of indestructible 1/1's (with a 4/4 indestructible flyer on offense). If they rediculously overextend, Wrath of God picks up massive card advantage. If they don't overextend, they get shut out by indestructible 1/1's. It's a vicious loop. If I don't have WoG, I can simply use 1-for-1 removal trades to prevent them from overextending, while Elspeth makes a massive amount of 1/1's. Hell, against the aggro decks that cannot overextend very well (lower threat density), I can usually just make 1-2 1/1 tokens, backed by Kor Haven, to have an absolutely rock solid defense, and just clock them away with a 4/4 flyer.

As far as Mystifying Maze goes, I don't think I'll be running it. I was excited when I first saw it, because I was still running Mishra's Factories and was looking for a replacement. However, I was reminded about Kor Haven, which is just much better than Mystifying Maze. 5 mana is incredibily slow, and if I did run it, it would only be as a 1-of to give me more redundancy with Kor Haven.

- I assume the Innocent Blood in the SB have been chosen over other removal like Path or Oust because of Iona, Inkwell, Progenitus and Nimble Mongoose? Has them being worse after turn 1-2 against Goblins, Fish and anything running Bob/Pridemage plus a slew of other creatures been worth the benefits?

Innocent Blood's have been very versatile, answering some of the things that Swords can't, like Argothian Enchantress, Nimble Mongoose, Progenitus, etc. When they come in against dedicated aggro decks, I run such a large amount of removal that they get the job done as if they were targeted removal in most cases. Also, no, I haven't had any issues with them being worse than Path in the matchups where I run 16-18 creature removal postboard. I've been happy with them so far, but as a sideboard option, they can easily be something like Path (especially if Ichorid makes a big comeback).

Finally, out of interest: against which decks do you board out the CB-engine?

The only matchups I board it out of are the Vial Aggro matchups (Goblins/Merfolk). Against even a deck like Dragon Stompy or Stax, they are useful because of my 4cc curve. However, if there eventually becomes a deck that is literally nothing but 3cc spells (which to my knowledge, there isn't), then I'd probably drop them in that matchup as well.

Otherwsie, CounterTop is absolutely savage in a dedicated control deck, generating a massive amount of card advantage and dominating the board/stack/gamestate. I have no idea why the Landstill community has been so resistant to using it the last 2 years that I've continuously suggested it to them, but whatever. CounterTop is format dominating, and I expect that if too many dedicated control decks start seeing heavy play (like this deck and the Thopter deck), we could very well see a ban on Top. I hope not, but this deck isn't exactly fair. In all honesty, every single one of my opponent's that I have played against have loathed the matchup afterwards. It really feels like you've been molested once you lose to it, I mean, I don't let my opponent's play magic at all. I'd argue to say that this deck is less fun to play against than combo with Mystical Tutor.

DemosLegion

07-09-2010, 06:00 AM

why not try moat

Lord_Cyrus

07-09-2010, 05:34 PM

why not try moat

Wow that was a worthless post. Try using more than 4 words and forming complete sentences. Yeah, that would be a start.

The issue with Moat is that it doesn't really protect you - it just stalls until they get Qasali Pridemage/Krosan Grip, and then kill you. If you read Hanni's primer at all you would see that this isn't what the deck wants to do - it wants to bait overextension and then clear the board with a WoG to produce CA. Counterbalance and Predict fill out the CA plan nicely.

Moving on...

Hanni, do you think that Enlightened Tutor looks better now with the printing of Dark Tutelage? This seems like an ideal deck in order to abuse that sort of package. I feel like there is some "happy medium" between this deck and a full-on Thopter Depths strategy. The main risk with a tutor toolbox (IMO) is the danger of playing too many crappy, narrow answers in the search for "always having the right card". Thopter can often fall into this category, sadly, as it's not always a win and requires a fairly large mana investment. That's not what I would want to do in a deck like this.

What I would like to do is play maybe 2-3 E. Tutor, Dark Tutelage, Humility (stalls a lot better than Moat here and works with Elspeth) and maybe Engineered Explosives in the main. I feel like it might make the deck a little more consistent in grinding out the wins against dumb aggro decks over many rounds of play. It could also allow a more finely tuned SB to beat the always annoying control mirror. Not talking about a huge change here, but a subtle one. What do you think?

chokin

07-09-2010, 06:01 PM

I really like Humility. Turning all of their creature investments into vanilla 1/1s is pretty awesome and helps stop the bleeding. I wouldn't run more than 2 Enlightened Tutor (I hate losing a draw) but I think that with all of the card advantage, gaining card quality could benefit the deck. I also like EE in the main as at least a 2 of, but I'm not running CBTop in my list (does that mean I should take my posts elsewhere?)

I know Hanni is rolling black as his splash, but if you happen to run red and Firespout, Humility turns it into a WoG. But then it's kind of like the Crucible turning Predict into a 2 mana Ancestrral Recall...it's conditional and takes investment.

Hanni

07-09-2010, 08:39 PM

why not try moat

I realize that Moat can create virtual card advantage, and that's really good. Their are some drawbacks that it has, though. First and foremost, it doesn't answer creatures with flying. Contrary to popular belief, I do play against quite a few decks that run flyers.

Secondly, if it gets destroyed by any sort of enchantment removal, I lose all of the card advantage because it was virtual. Most decks these days are packing artifact/enchantment answers, especially with Qasali Pridemage being a very popular creature right now. I realize that this shouldn't be a reason to not play powerful enchantments, and I'd be a hyprocit if I said that, since I run Counterbalance. However, if Counterbalance is destroyed by a Krosan Grip, chances are, I gained some card advantage from it before it got blown up. Counterbalance can also protect itself against Qasali's by preventing them from coming into play. If Moat gets blown up, I walk away without any resources gained.

Moat is obviously a powerful card, but at 4cc, it competes with Wrath of God. It is my opinion that Wrath of God is the stronger card in this deck. However, if you like Moat, you can cut 1 WoG for 1 Moat.

The issue with Moat is that it doesn't really protect you - it just stalls until they get Qasali Pridemage/Krosan Grip, and then kill you. If you read Hanni's primer at all you would see that this isn't what the deck wants to do - it wants to bait overextension and then clear the board with a WoG to produce CA. Counterbalance and Predict fill out the CA plan nicely.

That's about as accurate as it gets. If I WoG and hit 2-3 of their guys, not only do I get a temporary stall like Moat would provide (in this case, a clear board), it puts me ahead in card and board advantage. The rest of my deck is ready to capitalize on this, especially CounterTop, but both Jace and Elspeth are also capable of putting me too far ahead for the opponent to recover.

Hanni, do you think that Enlightened Tutor looks better now with the printing of Dark Tutelage? This seems like an ideal deck in order to abuse that sort of package. I feel like there is some "happy medium" between this deck and a full-on Thopter Depths strategy. The main risk with a tutor toolbox (IMO) is the danger of playing too many crappy, narrow answers in the search for "always having the right card". Thopter can often fall into this category, sadly, as it's not always a win and requires a fairly large mana investment. That's not what I would want to do in a deck like this.

What I would like to do is play maybe 2-3 E. Tutor, Dark Tutelage, Humility (stalls a lot better than Moat here and works with Elspeth) and maybe Engineered Explosives in the main. I feel like it might make the deck a little more consistent in grinding out the wins against dumb aggro decks over many rounds of play. It could also allow a more finely tuned SB to beat the always annoying control mirror. Not talking about a huge change here, but a subtle one. What do you think?

The only thing I like about E Tutor is that it is a Counterspell with Counterbalance in play. Otherwise, my deck generates more than enough card quality, with both its redundancy and its manipulation effects, to ensure that I'm finding the cards that I need when I need them. E Tutor generates an extreme amount of card quality, but at the expense of card advantage.

E Tutor can compensate for the card disadvantage by setting up virtual card advantage spells like Moat/Humility, but going in that direction has disadvantages. For example, if CounterTop Bant counters my Wrath of God, I'm down 1 spell to their 1 spell. If they counter my Moat/Humility after I used E Tutor, I'm down 2 spells to their 1. That's a very unfavorable trade.

Dark Tutelage sounds awful when I'm running 7 4cc spells and 5 5cc spells. In a dedicated control deck, lifeloss is extremely relevant.

Dark Tutelage is also extremely slow, coming down on turn 3 at the earliest, and not drawing me a card until turn 4. The first card drawn is card parity, so I don't begin to generate any real card advantage from it until turn 5 at the earliest. If I used E Tutor to grab it, I have to draw 3 cards from it before I see any real card advantage (+1 CA). The earliest that will happen is turn 6. In the control mirror, Dark Tutelage is probably insane. Against anything else, it's going to be too slow. Compare Dark Tutelage to Predict, and you can easily see a difference in speed.

If I'm using E Tutor to grab EE, I am forced to kill at least 2 creatures to maintain card parity, and I don't generate card advantage unless I can kill 3+ creatures with it. I can see tutoring for EE being strong if I had Academy Ruins in play, but without a way to tutor for Ruins, that's not a common scenario.

As far as Humility goes, yes it can disable Qasali Pridemage, but I actually like Moat way better than Humility. Humility costs 4 mana, and doesn't even prevent myself from getting beat down. Suppose my opponent has a Kird Ape, Qasali Pridemage, and a just-dropped Goyf in play. I drop Humility and pass, my opponent swings for 3. If I had WoG, my opponent would be down 3 creatures, I'd be up +2 CA and a clear board, and I could proceed to drop Jace ftw (for example). Humility needs Decree of Justice and manlands to be at its best, where you can be guarunteed to have your own 1/1's or 3/3's (on defense) to make Humility relevant. Otherwise, Wrath of God is indefinitely better in my deck, and even Moat would be much stronger (as long as my opponent isn't playing a deck that runs nothing but flyers, like Faeries or Faerie Stompy).

I really like Humility. Turning all of their creature investments into vanilla 1/1s is pretty awesome and helps stop the bleeding. I wouldn't run more than 2 Enlightened Tutor (I hate losing a draw) but I think that with all of the card advantage, gaining card quality could benefit the deck. I also like EE in the main as at least a 2 of, but I'm not running CBTop in my list (does that mean I should take my posts elsewhere?)

Humility costs the same 2WW as Wrath of God, and unless I have an Elspeth down, Humility is going to slow the bleeding, not stop it. Wrath of God stops the bleeding, and picks up card advantage in the process.

The deck generates massive card quality with 4/3/4 Brainstorm/Predict/Top as it is that I don't think it would need additional card quality with E Tutor.

Your decklist doesn't belong in the thread if you aren't running CounterTop, but you are more than welcome to post your ideas.

I
know Hanni is rolling black as his splash, but if you happen to run red and Firespout, Humility turns it into a WoG. But then it's kind of like the Crucible turning Predict into a 2 mana Ancestrral Recall...it's conditional and takes investment.

Having the rely on Firespout to make Humility good just doesn't make sense. If you expect heavy Goblins/Merfolk/Zoo, Firespout is solid. I'd still prefer WoG MD over Firespout against Zoo, because Firespout doesn't hit Goyf or KotR, but Firespout > WoG vs Goblins/Merfolk.

Red offers Firespout and Grim Lavamancer, which both hose Goblins/Merfolk, but Grim Lavamancer is a dud against Zoo.

The black splash is just as strong as the red splash against Zoo, with EE being on a similar power level to Firespout (I actually like EE better), and the additional 1cc removal in Innocent Blood is obviously much stronger than Grim Lavamancer.

So ultimately, the benefit of the red splash is a stronger game against Goblins/Merfolk. The benefit of the black splash is that it is stronger against everything else. With Zoo being predicted to have the biggest metagame presence at GP Columbus, we can conclude that the field of Goblins/Merfolk will either be small, or end up at the bottom tables. Therefore, I believe that black is going to be the best color splash to take to GP Columbus.

EDIT: I'd like to discuss a little bit of my findings with Vedalken Shackles.

First of all, it's extremely slow. It costs 3 mana to come down, and then an additional 2 mana to "equip." However, once it becomes active, it is a very strong removal piece, and can generate alot of card advantage.

For this reason, I do not think that it was appropriate for me to cut a Doom Blade for a Vedalken Shackles. Instead, it would be more appropriate for me to cut a Wrath of God. Both Shackles and WoG are slow, card advantage removal spells.

So for testing purposes, I'm going to do the following (from my previous change, not from my current list):

-1 Wrath of God
+1 Doom Blade

I feel like 4 Swords to Plowshares 2 Doom Blade (or some other 2cc removal spell) is just necessary in this metagame. Without enough cheap effecient removal, it can be difficult to get to the midgame. The deck clearly doesn't need to convolote itself to run spells like Spell Snare and Path to Exile to get to the midgame, but 4 Swords 2 Doom Blades is pretty solid. Since I've gone back up to 3 Counterspells, holding UU open on turn 2 to answer stuff is an option, too.

For testing and developmental purposes, this is the new list I'm trying:
(Note that this is not my current list. My current list is in the OP. I will keep the OP updated with my current list at all times).

U/W/b CounterTop Walker

Lands (23)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven

Spells (37)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Doom Blade
2 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
1 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard (15)
4 Innocent Blood
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Meddling Mage
4 Relic of Progenitus

mossivo1986

07-09-2010, 10:08 PM

Your reasoning for counter top doesn't really make a lot of sense.

You say the Zoo match up is improved, yet you have taken away removal spells that landstill normally has to equalize matchups like this. I do believe that when you address the matchups lack of removal spells you will have a positive percentage zoo matchup, but until then I don't think so at all. Your just begging to keep getting run over.

Ant is basically gone, and the versions that stay around you are barely a dogg or you run them over, T.E.S., S.I.

Reanimator your a dog to regardless of cb. besides your throwing in gy removal which is half their game anyways. Why not save yourself the time, and just play the correct 15 card sideboard to address the matchups.

and theres more, countertop doesn't fit into the core of landstill for many reasons, but mostly because it's a not win condition, not progress your game plan spell for landstill. regardless of what has happened before the countertop, its what you need to be aware of once it lands which makes it so effective. I don't really think you have much of a clue to begin with if your talking about Landstill having an unreasonable preboard game against aggro loam.

Hanni

07-09-2010, 10:23 PM

You say the Zoo match up is improved

When their curve is mostly 1cc and 2cc spells, with Fireblast and Knight of the Reliquary as their only spells out of that range, why would it not improve the Zoo matchup? The problem against Zoo isn't just killing their creatures, it's also about not dying to topdecked burn spells. If you stabalize at a low life total, their burn off the top is going to be your ass. Price of Progress is a beating coming from them against traditional Landstill. It gets even worse for you against the heavier burn Zoo builds, especially the Naya (Cat) Sligh builds. CounterTop shuts them out of the game once it's assembled.

We've argued about this before, and you've never once playtested with my deck to come to the conclusion that CounterTop doesn't improve Zoo, so would you like to load up Zoo on MWS and do some playtesting with me?

yet you have taken away removal spells that landstill normally has to equalize matchups like this

I'm running 11 removal spells. What removal spells do you normally run in excess of that in traditional Landstill? I'm 100% sure that the Counterbalances in my list are replacing the Spell Snares in yours, and not the "removal spells that Landstill normally has."

Ant is basicly gone, and the versions that stay around you are barely a dogg or you run them over, T.E.S., S.I.

Combo is not the only matchup improved by CounterTop.

Reanimator your a dog to regardless of cb. besides your throwing in gy removal which is half their game anyways. Why not save yourself the time, and just play the correct 15 card sideboard to address the matchups.

Reanimator is gone just as much as ANT is, and you're wrong anyway. Reanimator is a very easy matchup for me, and CounterTop just makes it even worse for them. Active CounterTop makes Show and Tell their only out, and I have answers to that too. Then once we go to the postboard games, with Innocent Blood's and Relic of Progenitus (which I don't even need to bring in), it's not even close.

Reanimator your a dog to regardless of cb. besides your throwing in gy removal which is half their game anyways. Why not save yourself the time, and just play the correct 15 card sideboard to address the matchups.

Well first of all, a sideboard is a sideboard, and secondly, what oh Mr. Landstill God is the correct sideboard?

and theres more, countertop doesn't fit into the core of landstill for many reasons, but mostly because it's a not win condition, not progress your gameplan spell for landstill. regardless of what has happened before the countertop, its what you need to be aware of once it lands which makes it so effective. I don't really think you have much of a clue to begin with if your talking about Landstill having an unreasonable preboard game against aggro loam.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

CounterTop fits into the core of control decks because it is the most powerful control card(s) ever printed. CounterTop can often be a win condition by locking the opponent completely out of the game, and even when it doesn't, it facilitates the win.

It does progress your gameplan, by dominating the board, keeping the opponent from resolving spells, and generating a mass of card advantage.

Mossivo, we've gone back and forth for years about the validity of Counterbalance in Landstill. I'm sorry that the build you tried it in was horribly built, and it didn't work for you. The truth is, CounterTop is the most format dominating combination of control spells in the format, and only a fool would opt to not utilize it's brokeness. I stopped posting my decklists in the Landstill thread because no one was willing to accept change, and I've since evolved my deck far enough away from Landstill that I've been able to create my own thread for it. If you don't like CounterTop, that's your perogative. But please don't come into my thread, without having ever playtested with my deck, and tell me that CounterTop is bad in it.

Malakai

07-10-2010, 06:05 AM

Playing control in Legacy without CounterTop is wrong. Quote me on that.

DragoFireheart

07-10-2010, 07:59 AM

Is a U/W version of CounterTop walker viable in metas heavy with Land.Desctruction decks? Also, how viable is Ancestral Vision compared to predict? Also, I think a one of the card Celestial Colonnade should be in the main deck to give you another win con in the event your planeswalkers get destroyed.

Hanni, I know you have been talking about Counter-Top Walker/Landstill for awhile and no one seemed to be giving you the deserved attention that I believe this decklist should get. I posted your topic in my sig to help get more people to come here and discuss a possible new Tier-1 deck: there isn't a better time to have this deck come out. The meta is going to shift to heavy Zoo, aggro decks and decks designed to beat Zoo. This is the time now to see if this idea of yours sinks or swims now that combo has been neutered for the time being.

Chrommox

07-10-2010, 11:01 AM

there isn't a better time to have this deck come out. The meta is going to shift to heavy Zoo, aggro decks and decks designed to beat Zoo. This is the time now to see if this idea of yours sinks or swims

Anybody tried a similar list in tournament setting yet? More importantly I'd like a report regarding Thopters and Landstill matchups, I believe those games are in their favor and these archtypes are better suited for the current meta.

Enough with the walls of text, I want to see hard evidence-based real facts.

DragoFireheart

07-10-2010, 12:43 PM

Enough with the walls of text, I want to see hard evidence-based real facts.

Agreed. I want tangible evidence as well.

Hanni

07-10-2010, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Chrommox
Enough with the walls of text, I want to see hard evidence-based real facts.

Agreed. I want tangible evidence as well.

Well, I'm unable to go to the GP, so I can't get you any hard evidence based facts, sorry. The only way that is going to happen anytime soon is for other people to play the deck. I'm hoping to be able to complete the deck eventually and start attending big events, but that's going to take a while, as I have alot of other real life shit I gotta worry about before I worry about spending time/money on real life magic.

---

Is a U/W version of CounterTop walker viable in metas heavy with Land.Desctruction decks? Also, how viable is Ancestral Vision compared to predict? Also, I think a one of the card Celestial Colonnade should be in the main deck to give you another win con in the event your planeswalkers get destroyed.

The U/W/b version is viable in metas with heavy land destruction. The manabase is extremely resilient. If you want to go U/W you can, you lose Vindicate, which I'd replace with Oblivion Ring or Cunning Wish.

Celestial Colonnade isn't worth it. If you need another win condition, run 1 Vedalken Shackles, which is also a form of removal. Or, splash red, and run an Ajani Vengeant.

Ancestral Vision is horrible. It's at it's best when cast on turn 1, and you don't even get any cards from it until turn 5. Of course, getting a draw 3 on turn 5 is great, and will refill your hand right when you need it. Casting it anytime after turn 1, it's just not worth it, and it's a horrible topdeck. I've seen some Ultimate Walker lists play it to good effect, but I'd much rather play Predict. I'd even play Ponder over Ancestral Visions, and rely on cards like Counterbalance to generate actual card advantage.

Anybody tried a similar list in tournament setting yet? More importantly I'd like a report regarding Thopters and Landstill matchups, I believe those games are in their favor and these archtypes are better suited for the current meta.

How would those matchups be better in the mirror, and what makes you think they are better suited for the current meta?

Mon,Goblin Chief

07-10-2010, 11:22 PM

Well, I'm unable to go to the GP, so I can't get you any hard evidence based facts, sorry. The only way that is going to happen anytime soon is for other people to play the deck. I'm hoping to be able to complete the deck eventually and start attending big events, but that's going to take a while, as I have alot of other real life shit I gotta worry about before I worry about spending time/money on real life magic.

I'd also be interested in some form of tangible results instead of theory - or what amounts to theory for us readers, as we can't see your testing. If you're unable to hit the tournament scene - I feel your pain, I can't get out of Berlin to attend anything larger than our biweekly shop-tournament either - simple matchup-statistics from your testing against major archetypes would do the trick for most of us, I think. Actual pre/post-SB numbers in addition to the convincing concept would probably give more credit to the deck than any other argument at this point (not the "it's a 60:40 matchup" kind but rather the "I've played 30 games against zoo, won 21, lost 9" version).

/edit: What would be even sweeter are short game-logs, though that write-up would likely prove to be quite a load of work.

Hanni

07-10-2010, 11:29 PM

I'd also be interested in some form of tangible results instead of theory - or what amounts to theory for us readers, as we can't see your testing. If you're unable to hit the tournament scene - I feel your pain, I can't get out of Berlin to attend anything larger than our biweekly shop-tournament either - simple matchup-statistics from your testing against major archetypes would do the trick for most of us, I think. Actual pre/post-SB numbers in addition to the convining concept would probably give more credit to the deck than any other argument at this point.

I can work on building a 'real' primer in my spare time, that has matchup analysis and stuff. I've done lots and lots of playtesting with the deck over the last few years, as I've slowly refined the deck, so that's not a problem. Getting actual tournament results... yea, that's probably not going to happen unless other people start piloting this thing.

Also, if anyone wants to run a gauntlet against this on MWS, I'm down to playtest with actual sourcers. I've gotten alot of games in against decks in the top tier on MWS, but I've also played against alot of scrubs on MWS, and I'd like my playtesting results to have more credibility. Just hit up my inbox, and this isn't something that has to be done right away, I'm not going anywhere, so I've got months to work on a good primer and do more playtesting.

Oh, and for those that are interested in this deck, has anyone playtested with this yet, whether on MWS or at any local events? If so, how'd you do, what were your results/findings, etc?

heroicraptor

07-10-2010, 11:44 PM

I've done some testing on MWS, and I find that the deck either stomps the other player into oblivion, or it shits all over itself. I don't know if that's me being a crappy control player or something, but it's disheartening.

I changed Predict to Ancestral Recall after some testing, and I'm liking it so far. I ran into too many situations where I wanted all three cards I had on top, and Predict kept just sitting in my hand, doing nothing. Also, the four turns it takes to go off isn't that bad when the rest of the deck does so well at slowing down the game.

Here's the list I'm playing with:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Scrubland
3 [IN] Island (2)
2 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [B] Tundra
1 [NE] Kor Haven
1 [OD] Swamp (3)

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [AP] Vindicate
3 [10E] Wrath of God
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DD2] Counterspell
3 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
1 [M10] Doom Blade

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [OD] Innocent Blood

The swamp is so I have an out vs a resolved Blood Moon, and the 3rd Vindicate, I think, is needed for additional permanent stopping. I'd like to fit a third 1-of Planeswalker in there somewhere, but that would be something useless (Old Jace, Ajani G, Tezz), or require a red splash (Ajani V), which I think opens the deck up to Waste/Moon hate too much.

Hanni

07-11-2010, 12:12 AM

I've done some testing on MWS, and I find that the deck either stomps the other player into oblivion, or it shits all over itself. I don't know if that's me being a crappy control player or something, but it's disheartening.

The deck does have a pretty steep learning curve for those who are new to dedicated control. Once you get better at playing control in general, the deck itself can go on auto pilot alot. It has a mass redundancy in what it does; 11 spells are draw/manipulation (if you don't count Jace), 11 spells are counters, 11 spells are removal. Sometimes you will want a specific removal and not just any removal, so those sort of play choice issues do come up. When to stay untapped to hold up Counterspell mana, when to tap down to cast a Planeswalker, etc. The Planeswalker's themselves are definitely the trickiest spells to use correctly. Learning how to use CounterTop, for those unfamiliar with it, requires some learning too. Knowing when to pop a fetch, what to draw, when/what to Predict, etc. The decision tree is huge, but once you become comfortable with the deck, most of the decisions are easy to make.

The majority of the games I've played with this deck have resulted in me stomping the other player into oblivion. Once this deck gets going, and its engines start falling into play, the opponent just can't dig themselves out. I've only had a few games where the deck has shit myself; a few of those were from MWS shuffler not giving me enough lands (or relevant lands, I had a game where I drew all 4 Islands and an Underground Sea and had no white sources). A few of the others were times when I needed to find a removal spell (any removal spell), dug about 15 cards deep with Top + fetches + Predict's, etc... and just couldn't find one. That sorta dumb shit will happen from time to time.

Usually, if I lose a game, it's either because my opponent has too fast of a start for the hand I drew, or I play a control mirror and they resolve their relevant spells before I resolve mine (I feel like I have an extremely strong mirror matchup, but I do lose some from time to time).

For example, I've lost a few game 1's to Zoo's nuts draws, where they go:

Turn 1, one drop.
Turn 2, two one drops.
Turn 3, relevant plays.

The few losses that I've had like this against Zoo so far were before I started running the Doom Blades (and the reason why I started running them). If I didn't see any Swords during the first 3 turns, I was either dead before I could cast WoG, or I got burned out after I cast WoG. Obviously, a CounterTop could circumvent their relevant turn 3+ plays (like burn), but those losses didn't have an early CounterTop lock either.

After adding the Doom Blades, that matchup has become alot better game 1, and postboard, the match gets really easy. Also keep in mind that the above mentioned line of plays is what I consider a nuts draw for Zoo, and it is unusual for me to not be able to find any cheap removal during the first 3 turns of the game. Usually, they play a 2 drop creature on turn 2 (instead of two 1 drops), I have have/dig into 1-2 cheap removal spells to get me to the midgame, and at that point, I'm capable of stabilizing and then dominating the game. These sorts of plays are also highly dependant on their build; some Zoo builds run more 1cc creatures than others, some Zoo builds run more burn than others, etc.

Anyway, that Zoo example is just an example of a loss. I have had losses with this deck, that's not something I'm going to try and lie about. This isn't the UWT thread. However, I've had far more wins than losses, my wins have been mostly dominating wins, and my losses have been mostly close games.

How many times have you dominated, and how many times has the deck shitted on you? In the games where the deck shitted on you, what were they like?

I changed Predict to Ancestral Recall after some testing, and I'm liking it so far. I ran into too many situations where I wanted all three cards I had on top, and Predict kept just sitting in my hand, doing nothing. Also, the four turns it takes to go off isn't that bad when the rest of the deck does so well at slowing down the game.

How many games and how many situations? I wouldn't dismiss Predict so quickly. I'd recommend putting some more games in and giving it another chance. It's a little tricky to use Predict properly at first, but once you get a little better with it, you will find that it is extremely strong in this deck. Ancestral Visions is also, meh. Never was a fan of the card, and this deck definitely doesn't need the card draw 4 turns later. To be honest, this deck generates enough card advantage with everything else, that the Predict's could become Ponder's and this deck would still work just fine. It only takes a second for this deck to gain an opportunity (like clearing the board with WoG), and then seal the game up (like locking the opponent out with CounterTop). The draw in this deck, if you run any, needs to be speedy. Ancestral Visions is definitely not speedy (maybe in casting cost, but not in relevance).

EDIT:
I'd like to fit a third 1-of Planeswalker in there somewhere, but that would be something useless (Old Jace, Ajani G, Tezz), or require a red splash (Ajani V), which I think opens the deck up to Waste/Moon hate too much.

If you feel that 4 Planeswalker's are not enough, run a 3rd copy of Elspeth or Jace. Unless you are saying that having both Elspeth and Jace in play at the same time is not enough, and that you want a 3rd (like Ajani). In that case, I'd say it's overkill.

I also want to note this in my edit too: as far as the deck shitting on you goes, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it could be because of timing issues with when to drop a Planeswalker. Knowing when to hold the Planeswalker back (in hand), and when to drop it, is something that requires alot of playing with the deck to get good at. Sometimes, dropping Elspeth in the face of a couple of guys on the opponent's board is the correct line of play, even if it means Elspeth is gonna die soon (for example).

Oh, and that decklist looks solid (except the Ancestral Visions should be Predict's).

Hanni

07-11-2010, 01:39 AM

Just wanted to ask, if I do start working on a detailed primer, what matchups would you guys like to see addressed first? I'm assuming DTB of course, which would include:

CounterTop (this is going to extremely loose, since there are a million different variations)
Zoo
Merfolk
New Horizons

Beyond that, what do you guys want to see? Obviously, I'd love to address every single matchup, but considering that there are so many viable Tier 1.5 and Tier 2 decks out there, I can't address them all. Even if I could address them all, that's not something that would happen anytime soon.

Appreciate the feedback on this.

routlaw

07-11-2010, 02:28 AM

I'm just about done putting the pieces together and hope to knock out the last few cards for it via trading tomorrow after our weekly tournament. It's a small group (we usually go four rounds, but the players are good and the meta developed).

As for the matchups in a primer, I think you could start with the popular decks that are traditionally a problem for Counterbalance builds-Vial Aggro (Goblins/Merfolk), and a couple of the heavy hitters (Zoo, Counterbalance w/ Thopter or Natural Order). I'd wait to see what GP Columbus brings in terms of overall metagame breakdown before taking on anything else.

One note about New Horizons-this should not be a hard matchup. Dedicated control decks with lots of removal are like terrible matchups for New Horizons. I play the deck and the only games I win against real control decks are the ones where the control deck has all of the following in common:

1) use Standstill as their draw engine
2) Use Pernicious Deed for their sweeper (this card is overrated by control players. It's almost as win-more as Standstill is.)
3) Play lands like Mishra's Factory that pretty much do nothing relevant all game while I focus on wasting them off a color.

And even then it's about 35/65 in their favor due to the amount of maindeck removal they run. This deck makes none of those choices and instead plays broken stuff (counterbalance/top) and basic lands that tap for colored mana.

Hanni

07-11-2010, 04:55 AM

@ New Horizons

Oh, I know. I mentioned it because it was a DTB, but I know how my matchup vs them goes. They run a threat light base that has no Shroud or anything and a mana denial plan that doesn't phase me very much. I run a heavy removal suite and CounterTop. Postboard, I bring in more efficient removal to play around Stifle/Daze/Wasteland/Spell Pierce shenanigans (out with Vindicate/WoG, in with Innocent Blood). My Planeswalker's are especially brutal in this matchup, because they have no way to stop them besides attacking, and this deck prevents them from getting a creature to stick.

However, I did punt a game to them once, where my manabase crapped on me. I was drawing land light, and I could only draw duals/fetches, with the Horizons player having the Stifle/Wasteland heavy draw to shut me down while Goyf ate my face.

That, however, is (was) a rare occurence.

nexus blue

07-11-2010, 02:42 PM

I've been following this thread and others featuring CounterTop for awhile, as the combo simply kicks ass. I enjoy control the most and feel that this type of build optimizes the idea of a counter/control deck.
Below is a list I just began testing. It's the same concept as the OP, but has a few changes (no Predict, alternate wincon). I really like this deck, and would appreciate some in-depth feedback on some of my card choices that differ from the OP list.
Also, since you need info regarding playtesting in real matches, etc., I'll be playing in a 30-man even next week and plan to use this deck. I might only be using a close fascimile, as I don't have every card. However, I have all the "important" ones, so the difference won't be that obvious.

Lands:
4 'Flooded Strand'
4 'Tundra'
1 'Academy Ruins'
1 'Kor Haven'
5 'Island'
4 'Plains'

Planeswalkers
1 'Elspeth, Knight-Errant'
2 'Jace, the Mind Sculptor'

Artifacts
4 'Sensei's Divining Top'
1 'Forcefield'
1 'Tormod's Crypt'

Spells
4 'Counterbalance'
4 'Enlightened Tutor'
4 'Force of Will'
4 'Brainstorm'
4 'Swords to Plowshares'
1 'Wrath of God'
1 'Humility'
2 'Luminarch Ascension'
2 'Oblivion Ring'
1 'Propaganda'
2 'Spell Pierce'
3 'Ponder'

Sideboard (adjustable for Meta)
4 'Path to Exile'
2 'Engineered Explosives'
1 'Relic of Progenitus'
2 'Meddling Mage'
1 'Pithing Needle'
1 'Ghostly Prison'
1 'Wrath of God'
3 'Blue Elemental Blast'

Okay, first off, if you don't feel this belongs in this thread, please redirect me to a better one. As I said, I've scoured most CounterTop threads, mainly wondering why no one uses Luminarch Ascension as a wincon. It seems to fit best here, and your addition of Elspeth (I had previously only used Jace 2.0) made a ton of sense and definitely sped things up.
Also, I know I don't run any 'Predict'. I'm not against them, just haven't tried them (i don't own any) and really enjoy 'Ponder'. With the cantrips and Tops, Fetches and E. Tutors, I have yet to have a problem finding a missing piece. Everything seems to help everything else.
The 3cc of Forcefield and O-Rings help my Countertop action, especially with E. Tutors.
I simply don't have a 'Moat', though with the Propaganda and Humility it seems to be okay - again, I can get either pretty quickly. The Forcefield is simply a favorite card of mine that I never get to use, but here it actually seems great - I wouldn't even run the Humility if it didn't have the added bonus of stopping special abilities.
Anyways, I'm relatively new to Legacy and currently play a Painter's Grindstone and an Elves Aggro-Combo. The Painter's deck is only so-so and I figured I'd try the Countertop shell I use there in something else. This is the result, so please give me your thoughts.

DragoFireheart

07-11-2010, 08:39 PM

Nexus Blue, why do you only have 1 Elspeth? Also, isn't Luminarch Ascension a bit too slow since you need a minimum of 4 turns before it begins giving you token?

lacombeshawn

07-11-2010, 09:05 PM

The only way for predict to work properly is off of Jace is that correct? If you never draw a jace then its just a bad draw spell or a good guess is that right? Would it be better to drop predict and add more jace/ elspeth or something else?

Jak

07-11-2010, 09:15 PM

Hanni

07-11-2010, 09:55 PM

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

You missed one.

4 Counterbalance (blind reveals)

@ Nexus

Forcefield looks bad. I also don't approve of E Tutor, but if it works for you, it works for you. Luminarch Acension also looks bad, I'd run Hoofprints of the Stag before I ran that, and only as a 1-of since you run E Tutor. Honestly, if you're going to run E Tutor, why not just cut the 2 Luminarch's and something else for a 2/1 split of Thopter/Sword? I see no point to run 4 of a card diadvantage card quality 'tutor' unless you can grab an I-win combo with it.

nexus blue

07-11-2010, 10:01 PM

Nexus Blue, why do you only have 1 Elspeth? Also, isn't Luminarch Ascension a bit too slow since you need a minimum of 4 turns before it begins giving you token?

I only have 1 Elspeth because A) I currently don't have any, so B) I'm just trying to go one step at a time. Really, I'd totally run two if I had them. I feel good about picking one up right now, but two is probably stretching it for me.

Luminarch Ascension is most definitely a slower play, but this isn't a fast deck in terms of how quickly you can deal 20 damage; at least, the version I posted isn't meant to be. It's control that focuses on limiting what your opponent can do and taking advantage of mistakes. And I don't know that it's a good fit, but I like the card and would like to see it work, so I'm going to begin "live" testing tomorrow.

On a side note, I saw the deck thread links at the bottom of your post. Heavy Machine Gun rocks. It's so brutal and fun, I play the version with Manamorphose + Distortion Strike. Lots of fun. Anyways, yeah.

nexus blue

07-11-2010, 10:13 PM

I can see how Hoofprints looks nice, though it gives you one token then makes you start over for counters. I know that shouldn't be a problem given the deck's draw engines, but....

I'm sure Forcefield will eventually get cut, there's a good reason it dosen't see a lot of play and that's probably because it's not so great. But like I said, this is definitely in it's infantile stage and I just like the card for some reason.

I've thought long and hard about playing a ThopterTop deck, but I'd like to try something else first. Your concept really appeals to me. I'm not trying to bastardize it by adding cards like Luminarch or Forcefield, rather just trying to give the deck my own twist and see what can happen. I'll be sure to post some thougts tomorrow after I get some live play in.

I keep thinking about it and will probably find the Predicts and replace the Ponders with them. The deck just seems to function around it as an amazing side effect, I can't see why not to do it.

heroicraptor

07-12-2010, 12:05 AM

The deck does have a pretty steep learning curve for those who are new to dedicated control. Once you get better at playing control in general, the deck itself can go on auto pilot alot. It has a mass redundancy in what it does; 11 spells are draw/manipulation (if you don't count Jace), 11 spells are counters, 11 spells are removal. Sometimes you will want a specific removal and not just any removal, so those sort of play choice issues do come up. When to stay untapped to hold up Counterspell mana, when to tap down to cast a Planeswalker, etc. The Planeswalker's themselves are definitely the trickiest spells to use correctly. Learning how to use CounterTop, for those unfamiliar with it, requires some learning too. Knowing when to pop a fetch, what to draw, when/what to Predict, etc. The decision tree is huge, but once you become comfortable with the deck, most of the decisions are easy to make.

Yeah, I think it was more of me not having a lot of experience piloting competitive-level control decks. As I've been playing more on MWS, I see things I hadn't before, and I find myself making better plays, and learning from mistakes.

How many times have you dominated, and how many times has the deck shitted on you? In the games where the deck shitted on you, what were they like?

A lot of the shitting was them drawing many more relevant spells than I in a matchup. Some times it would be land screw, but mostly it was relevant spells.

How many games and how many situations? I wouldn't dismiss Predict so quickly. I'd recommend putting some more games in and giving it another chance. It's a little tricky to use Predict properly at first, but once you get a little better with it, you will find that it is extremely strong in this deck. Ancestral Visions is also, meh. Never was a fan of the card, and this deck definitely doesn't need the card draw 4 turns later. To be honest, this deck generates enough card advantage with everything else, that the Predict's could become Ponder's and this deck would still work just fine. It only takes a second for this deck to gain an opportunity (like clearing the board with WoG), and then seal the game up (like locking the opponent out with CounterTop). The draw in this deck, if you run any, needs to be speedy. Ancestral Visions is definitely not speedy (maybe in casting cost, but not in relevance).

One of the problems I had was that I never wanted to ditch a card I had to Predict because all three were ones I wanted, so Predict just sat in my hand, frustrating me because I couldn't use it, or I didn't draw anything to see the top of my library, so I couldn't even use it if I wanted to. Visions is slow, but the CA is ridiculous. I might try Ponders, as someone else suggested.

If you feel that 4 Planeswalker's are not enough, run a 3rd copy of Elspeth or Jace. Unless you are saying that having both Elspeth and Jace in play at the same time is not enough, and that you want a 3rd (like Ajani). In that case, I'd say it's overkill.

I meant having a third "route to victory", but I think a third Elspeth will be fine, as she dies much more often than Jace. For some reason, people don't think he's a threat, until he's at 11 counters, and they think "oh fuck, why didn't I deal with him earlier!".

I also want to note this in my edit too: as far as the deck shitting on you goes, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it could be because of timing issues with when to drop a Planeswalker. Knowing when to hold the Planeswalker back (in hand), and when to drop it, is something that requires alot of playing with the deck to get good at. Sometimes, dropping Elspeth in the face of a couple of guys on the opponent's board is the correct line of play, even if it means Elspeth is gonna die soon (for example).

Yeah, I gotta learn to be more patient with my planeswalkers, especially when I drop them. With +1 Elspeth, I think I'll have a better aggro matchup, as I can use her more aggressively to absorb damage.

Oh, and that decklist looks solid (except the Ancestral Visions should be Predict's).

Yeah yeah, I'm just not sure if Predict is the card draw for me.

Hanni

07-12-2010, 12:38 AM

Yeah, I think it was more of me not having a lot of experience piloting competitive-level control decks. As I've been playing more on MWS, I see things I hadn't before, and I find myself making better plays, and learning from mistakes.

Control is definitely not easy to play if you've never played it before. There are alot of decisions that you constantly need to make, and wrong decisions can cost you games. Luckily for this deck, alot of the decisions it has become streamlined once you get good with it. For example, once you have an active CounterTop, it's not that hard to know that if the opponent casts a 2cc spell, you need to spin your Top and put a 2cc spell on top, etc. The benefit of having alot of decisions is that once you master the deck, you have an answer to almost any situation, and no matchups are autolosses because of this.

A lot of the shitting was them drawing many more relevant spells than I in a matchup. Some times it would be land screw, but mostly it was relevant spells.

I guess it really depends on the matchup, and it's pretty hard to evaluate regardless. Sometimes I lose to positive matchups because I can't draw the right spell I need for a given situation, but with the amount of general answers this deck runs (redundancy in countermagic and removal), that doesn't happen too often. That's something that you are going to experience with any control deck, though.

One of the problems I had was that I never wanted to ditch a card I had to Predict because all three were ones I wanted, so Predict just sat in my hand, frustrating me because I couldn't use it, or I didn't draw anything to see the top of my library, so I couldn't even use it if I wanted to. Visions is slow, but the CA is ridiculous. I might try Ponders, as someone else suggested.

Predict is about timing. If you want all 3 spells, pick the two you want the most, and you can instantly put both of them into your hand. Yes, you didn't get to draw one of the ones you wanted, but hey, you'll get to see a fresh 3 cards with Top, and maybe you'll find a card in that top 3 that you like even more. Thing is, as a control deck, you will have some cards that are dead (or not the answer that you need right now), and some cards that are bombs. Discrediting Predict because you want all 3 cards is like discrediting fetchlands because you want to keep the top 2 cards after a Brainstorm.

Visions is too slow in this deck to be relevant. Ponder's were actually suggested by me; I said that the deck could replace the Predict's with Ponder's and be fine. This is because the deck doesn't desperately need the card advantage from an actual draw spell because of all of the other means of generating card advantage that this deck has. However, I highly recommend Predict. Highly. Before dismissing them so quickly, please give them a chance and try them some more. I promise you, once you playtest enough, you'll find them invaluable/irreplaceable.

I meant having a third "route to victory", but I think a third Elspeth will be fine, as she dies much more often than Jace. For some reason, people don't think he's a threat, until he's at 11 counters, and they think "oh fuck, why didn't I deal with him earlier!".

The only 3rd routes that seem worth it are Vedalken Shackles, or Ajani Vengeant in a red splash. Personally, I'm fine with just the 2/2 split of Elspeth/Jace, and I think adding in too many more Planeswalker's is going to load you up with too many expensive spells during the early game and cause unecessary inconsistency in early hands. The difference between 4 and 5 isn't much, though. 3/2 Elspeth/Jace could actually be better than a 2/2 split, that's something I haven't playtested with yet. 2/2 has just felt right so far, so that's why I didn't try to test other configurations. My philosophy there was: if it's not broke, don't fix it. :p

Yeah, I gotta learn to be more patient with my planeswalkers, especially when I drop them. With +1 Elspeth, I think I'll have a better aggro matchup, as I can use her more aggressively to absorb damage.

Timing is key. Sometimes you need to cast them early, sometimes you want to wait until much later. This is all highly dependant on the matchup, the current situation, etc etc. Once you play with the deck more, these decisions become more streamlined and easier to recognize.

Yeah yeah, I'm just not sure if Predict is the card draw for me.

Well, I can't really say too much more than what's already been said about the card. If you just don't like it, you can play Ponder, and it shouldn't make a dramatic difference in gameplay.

EDIT: Wait! Quoting myself:

and it shouldn't make a dramatic difference in gameplay.

Actually, it will. Not because of the effects of the cards themselves, but because of the Counterbalance curve. See, while designing this deck for the last couple of years, there's been alot of restrictions on deckbuilding that I've been aware of, and they've become subconcious to me now. One, you need enough blue spells for Force of Will. Two, you need to maintain a healthy number of 1cc and 2cc spells to adequately support Counterbalance. I have a 12/12 split of 1cc/2cc spells, and that includes Predict. If you cut Predict's for Ponder's, you're going to have to find a way to up the 2cc spell count somehow. I'd just recommend playing Predict and call it a day, but if you insist on not running it, you're going to have to find a way to compensate.

nexus blue

07-12-2010, 03:55 PM

Okay, I accept, Lumiarch Ascension sucks here. The only time I found it useful was when I had a good solid lock, and when I had it I would have just rather had one of the Planeswalkers.

I'm mixed on the E. Tutors - several times they saved my ass, mainly because I'm running Propaganda/Humility. Dropped the Forcefield - the only time it got cast was when I already had a Humility in play = useless. Still one of my favorite cards though.

I can't say enough about Humility. The 1/1 thing is great, but making everyone equal kicks tremendous ass. Vengevine? Punk'd. Iona? Punk'd. Etc.

I would still love another win condition in here besides the Planeswalkers, ideally something I can tutor for. I had minimal troubles with draw - between the SDT, Brainstorms and (in my case) Ponders I sifted well. Maybe i just had bad shuffles, it was only three or four games. Any thoughts on alternates, apart from adding more Jace/Elspeth?

Last thought: this deck is very discouraging for others to play once you have yourself set up. I was down to two life the last game then grinded for half an hour before I made a play mistake from a won position. Good stuff.

Hanni

07-12-2010, 04:03 PM

I would still love another win condition in here besides the Planeswalkers, ideally something I can tutor for.

Vedalken Shackles. It's a removal spell that acts as a card advantage engine, and can win the game against decks with (non-shroud) creatures.

Last thought: this deck is very discouraging for others to play once you have yourself set up. I was down to two life the last game then grinded for half an hour before opponent conceded. Good stuff.

I find it hard to play alot of 2/3 game sets on MWS because my opponent's leave after game 1 pretty frequently.

jafar

07-12-2010, 05:11 PM

Only 2 vindicate for the 3cc aren't too few for the counterbalance engine?

Bye

nexus blue

07-12-2010, 05:28 PM

Well I don't play on MWS, though I would if I could. Vendalken Shackles might work, thought that assumes their wincon is creature based, right?

Malakai

07-12-2010, 05:37 PM

The deck is so slow that'd I'd rather just use Fact or Fiction as my draw engine. Predicts weren't bad though.

swarm187

07-12-2010, 09:11 PM

Some cards that may be possible wincons and/or solid maindeck possibilities:
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Pride of the Clouds
Teferi's Moat
Eight and a Half Tails
Bitterblossom

In this type of build, I figure Meloku would be killer, especially since you don't need a lot of land to operate.
Just some thoughts.

heroicraptor

07-12-2010, 09:30 PM

Meloku the Clouded Mirror
And open up the win condition to all the creature removal we blank by not playing creatures?

Pride of the Clouds
Elspeth does the same thing, but for +1 loyalty per turn instead of four mana.

Teferi's Moat
Moat is strictly better, and we don't run that.

Eight-and-a-half Tails
It costs way too much to adequately protect him.

Bitterblossom
This deck stabilizes with way too little life to afford to play with more life loss.

In this type of build, I figure Meloku would be killer, especially since you don't need a lot of land to operate.

You haven't really played with the deck very much, have you? I constantly have to manage my mana, and am never sad to have more land.

Raystar

07-13-2010, 05:04 AM

Hanni, as always you got a very good deck designed, good job!

I sleeved the deck after having spent some time lately playing with several builds of Landstill (best of which was the UBg with Jace) and it really is a powerhouse.

There is one suggestion I have for the sideboard: in game 2 your opponent is going to presumably get rid of his removal package, why not add 4 Perimeter Captain to be brought in instead of the engineered explosives? It would give the deck an immediate answer to the first turn beaters that Zoo and Goblins tend to land and will buy so much time to the deck's plan that there would be no way they would get back into the game.

You would still maintain the Innocent Bloods (lowering them at 3) siding out the Forces and 3 of the CBs...what do you think?

routlaw

07-13-2010, 08:07 AM

You really, really need the Explosives to deal with Pithing Needles on your Planeswalkers. EE at 1 is a wrecking ball against Zoo anyway.

Raystar

07-13-2010, 08:10 AM

You really, really need the Explosives to deal with Pithing Needles on your Planeswalkers. EE at 1 is a wrecking ball against Zoo anyway.

You are right, I didn't think about Pithing Needle (even if you still have Vindicate to deal with them).

In any case I'm testing the list in the OP and it really works wonder sagainst a lot of the meta.

heroicraptor

07-13-2010, 11:29 AM

EE is a wrecking ball against about a bajillion decks, and should never ever be cut from the sideboard.

Anusien

07-13-2010, 11:59 AM

The OP's list has a lot of 4-drops (7). I'm pretty sure that's too many for 23 lands, and might be too many in general.

I would cut some Predicts and something else for Wall of Omens. I'd be really really okay with casting Wall of Omens on turn 2, Zoo having to Path to Exile it (giving you a land!) and not casting some other spell on that turn.

heroicraptor

07-13-2010, 11:05 PM

As I haven't yet sided in Meddling Mage (alas, I can only test on MWS :-/), I cut one for another EE, so I have 4 EE and 3 MM in my Sideboard.

Anusien

07-14-2010, 11:50 AM

I'm also not convinced at all by black mana. It seems to add nothing but more spot removal. If you think that's necessary, just run Porphyry Nodes or Path to Exile or something. I think red for Firespout is the more convincing splash.

heroicraptor

07-14-2010, 12:43 PM

I would not cut black. Vindicate is one of the strongest standalone spells this deck plays.

Anusien

07-14-2010, 06:41 PM

I would not cut black. Vindicate is one of the strongest standalone spells this deck plays.
I cut Oblivion Ring from CounterTop Thopters so I doubt that. What does Vindicate do that Path to Exile/Oblivion Ring/Engineered Explosives/Jace can't do?

Aggro_zombies

07-14-2010, 06:46 PM

What does Vindicate do that Path to Exile/Oblivion Ring/Engineered Explosives/Jace can't do?
Blow up lands.

Anusien

07-14-2010, 07:41 PM

Blow up lands.
Is that actually something you want to do? Are you that bothered by EE recursion to kill Jaces?

Hanni

07-14-2010, 11:00 PM

Only 2 vindicate for the 3cc aren't too few for the counterbalance engine

Not every cc range can be adequately covered. 1cc and 2cc are the most important to answer, and 4cc happens to be the range of my bombs. This deck doesn't attempt to answer the 3cc spot with Counterbalance. That's what Counterspells and Vindicates are for.

Well I don't play on MWS, though I would if I could. Vendalken Shackles might work, thought that assumes their wincon is creature based, right?

Correct.

The deck is so slow that'd I'd rather just use Fact or Fiction as my draw engine. Predicts weren't bad though.

It's a control deck, it's going to be slow. It's alot faster than traditional Landstill, though.

Fact or Fiction would make the deck even slower, and running FoF in the Predict spots skews the Counterbalance curve.

Some cards that may be possible wincons and/or solid maindeck possibilities:
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Pride of the Clouds
Teferi's Moat
Eight and a Half Tails
Bitterblossom

In this type of build, I figure Meloku would be killer, especially since you don't need a lot of land to operate.
Just some thoughts.

The deck already has wincons: Elspeth and Jace. It doesn't need anymore, but if it did, I'd be looking at Vedalken Shackles and Ajani Vengeant way before those options you listed.

There is one suggestion I have for the sideboard: in game 2 your opponent is going to presumably get rid of his removal package, why not add 4 Perimeter Captain to be brought in instead of the engineered explosives? It would give the deck an immediate answer to the first turn beaters that Zoo and Goblins tend to land and will buy so much time to the deck's plan that there would be no way they would get back into the game.

You would still maintain the Innocent Bloods (lowering them at 3) siding out the Forces and 3 of the CBs...what do you think?

Perimeter Captain can't block Lord of Atlantis, and doesn't get rid of Aether Vial. Captain may be good against Zoo, but it's lackluster against everything else. EE has the ability to blow up enemy Counterbalances, creatures, etc. EE wins out because of its versatility.

Also, I'd never side out 3 CB's vs Zoo.

The OP's list has a lot of 4-drops (7). I'm pretty sure that's too many for 23 lands, and might be too many in general.

I would cut some Predicts and something else for Wall of Omens. I'd be really really okay with casting Wall of Omens on turn 2, Zoo having to Path to Exile it (giving you a land!) and not casting some other spell on that turn.

Pretty sure, as in speculation? Or as in, you tried it and it definitely was too few lands?

7 4cc spells being too many, as in speculation? Or as in, you tried it and it was definitely too many?

Kinda hard to discern what you mean through the arrogant tone.

Wall of Omen's maindeck is bad. Now you're enabling the opponen'ts otherwise dead creature removal, and an 0/4 body isn't amazing. Against a 4/5 Tarmogoyf, it's no better than a 1/1 soldier token. Even against Zoo, the only thing it does is force overextending, which they will already be doing anyway. Wall of Omen's blocks 1 Kird Ape, but not 2, and it dies to my own Wrath of God's. It's -decent- in the Zoo matchup, and just bad everywhere else.

I'd much rather keep my draw engine with Predict. Then again, I'm assuming that you are basing your theorycrafting off of playtesting with CounterTop Thopter, and not this deck. This deck is much different than CounterTop Thopter, and in this case, the difference is that this deck values real card advantage and actual cards in hand. Predict to this deck is like Standstill to Landstill.

As I haven't yet sided in Meddling Mage (alas, I can only test on MWS :-/), I cut one for another EE, so I have 4 EE and 3 MM in my Sideboard.

My sideboard is just generalized for a random metagame. Alterations based on metagames are bound to happen; don't treat my current sideboard as gold. I've actually been considering fitting in Pithing Needles, myself.

I'm also not convinced at all by black mana. It seems to add nothing but more spot removal. If you think that's necessary, just run Porphyry Nodes or Path to Exile or something. I think red for Firespout is the more convincing splash.

Vindicate is a catchall answer that is important. Sometimes, things slip through Counterbalance that need answered... like, say, enemy Counterbalances. Or enemy Thopter Foundry's. Or, whatever. Vindicate answers those. Having access to 3 colors also makes EE much stronger out of the sideboard.

Running extra Path to Exiles in place of the Doom Blades would be fine, except Doom Blade is 2cc for my Counterbalance curve.

Porphyry Nodes is bad. It doesn't answer anything until the next upkeep and has bad synergy with Elspeth. It's too slow as mass removal, and too weak as spot removal.

I used to play a U/W version a while back, with Oblivion Rings instead of Vindicate. Vindicate is just much stronger, and it doesn't hurt the decks manabase much to accomodate it (and again, EE likes a color splash).

If you take the time to read the thread, you'll notice that I've said multiple times that the red splash is viable. Firespout, Grim Lavamancer, Red Elemental Blast, and Ajani Vengeant are all strong cards from red. You'll also find the answer to why I prefer the black splash over the red splash.

I cut Oblivion Ring from CounterTop Thopters so I doubt that. What does Vindicate do that Path to Exile/Oblivion Ring/Engineered Explosives/Jace can't do?

Again, I'm assuming that you haven't playtested with this deck at all, and instead, you are basing your assumptions from your playtesting with CounterTop Thopter. Actually playing a few games with this deck before making random assumptions would increase the value of your suggestions.

The two decks (Thopter and this) are different decks. Thopter runs a card disadvantage tutor to try and set up a 2 card combo (with each piece being dead on its own), while my deck aims to generate card advantage and win with a Planeswalker. That right there should tell you that the two decks are very different/have different gameplans, and individual cards should not be evaluated equally between both decks. Maybe O Ring is bad in that deck, but that doesn't mean Vindicate is bad in this deck. Theorycrafting is not the same as actually playing with the deck.

Vindicate answers exactly the same things as Oblivion Ring, minus lands. I hate to state the obvious here, but you're the one that asked. Academy Ruins comes to mind. But also, Oblivion Rings bites it to Qasali Pridemages, and etc etc so on and so forth. If you want me to do a statistical analysis of the difference between the two, I can.

Path to Exile doesn't blow up enemy Counterbalances, etc. Engineered Explosives doesn't answer problems that exceed 3cc. Jace... huh? (Also, I'd prefer to Vindicate a 2cc permanent than use EE when I have my own Counterbalance in play).

Is that actually something you want to do? Are you that bothered by EE recursion to kill Jaces?

This deck likes to have answers to as many things as possible (i.e everything), and yes that has come up. Ruins/EE keeps my Counterbalances from staying on the table, and renders Elspeth (tokens) worthless until she ultimates. I haven't played against someone with Ruins/EE and 4 colors yet, but that would be even worse.

Vindicate isn't just good in the mirror, but it is good in the mirror. CounterTop Thopter and UGB Landeed have both been gaining in popularity, so I'm definitely mindful of the control mirror, and it's something I will continue to consider during deckbuilding.

tl;dr Playing this deck without Vindicate is like walking down the street without any pants on.

Anusien

07-15-2010, 11:46 AM

If you don't want feedback from people, don't post a thread. I guarantee you the vast majority of people who post on the thread have never played it before. That's the price of posting on a forum. If you're going to meet every criticism with "You haven't played it, you're just theorycrafting." then just delete the post. Yes, I'm generalizing based off my experience with CounterTop Thopter. I'm also generalizing based on my experience with just about every version of CounterTop decks ever. I helped BrassMan test and tune some of the early versions of his GP-second place list. So no, I haven't shuffled this list up. But I can look at it and have a pretty good idea of how it will play based on vast experience with Legacy blue decks. For the rest of this post, I'm going to edit out all your "Waaah you've never played my deck" comments in my quotes, to keep the rest of the discussion civilized.

Wall of Omen's maindeck is bad. Now you're enabling the opponen'ts otherwise dead creature removal, and an 0/4 body isn't amazing. Against a 4/5 Tarmogoyf, it's no better than a 1/1 soldier token. Even against Zoo, the only thing it does is force overextending, which they will already be doing anyway. Wall of Omen's blocks 1 Kird Ape, but not 2, and it dies to my own Wrath of God's. It's -decent- in the Zoo matchup, and just bad everywhere else.

I'd much rather keep my draw engine with Predict. ... this deck values real card advantage and actual cards in hand. Predict to this deck is like Standstill to Landstill.
I'm totally okay with unblanking Zoo's removal. I am completely okay with playing Wall of Omens, drawing a card and then the opponent having to burn a Path to Exile on it. That's being able to cast Jace a turn faster, being able to cast Wrath a turn faster, etc. Sure, it's less good than Predict against Counterbalance. However, seeing as Zoo is likely to be the most popular deck by a mile, I'm okay with that. If you can't set up Predict, Wall of Omens is actually better (both get you one card, this also affects the board).
It dies to your Wrath of Gods, which is okay because you don't actually care if it survives. Your Wrath of Gods won't be very good if you force you to deal with one or two threats at a time; then you're spending 4 mana to kill a Nacatl or two. I'm in favor of changing Wrath of Gods to either Firespout or Moat, both of which Wall of Omens has awesome synergy with. Casting turn 2 Wall of Omens, forcing them to overextend and then Firespouting all their cats away (keeping Wall of Omens) is pretty much the best you can hope for.

Vindicate is a catchall answer that is important. Sometimes, things slip through Counterbalance that need answered... like, say, enemy Counterbalances. Or enemy Thopter Foundry's. Or, whatever. Vindicate answers those. Having access to 3 colors also makes EE much stronger out of the sideboard.

Running extra Path to Exiles in place of the Doom Blades would be fine, except Doom Blade is 2cc for my Counterbalance curve.

Porphyry Nodes is bad. It doesn't answer anything until the next upkeep and has bad synergy with Elspeth. It's too slow as mass removal, and too weak as spot removal.

I used to play a U/W version a while back, with Oblivion Rings instead of Vindicate. Vindicate is just much stronger, and it doesn't hurt the decks manabase much to accomodate it (and again, EE likes a color splash).

...

Vindicate answers exactly the same things as Oblivion Ring, minus lands. ... Academy Ruins comes to mind. But also, Oblivion Rings bites it to Qasali Pridemages, and etc etc so on and so forth. If you want me to do a statistical analysis of the difference between the two, I can.

Path to Exile doesn't blow up enemy Counterbalances, etc. Engineered Explosives doesn't answer problems that exceed 3cc. Jace... huh? (Also, I'd prefer to Vindicate a 2cc permanent than use EE when I have my own Counterbalance in play).
I think you've gotten locked into this mindset where you think you have to be a control deck and you have to have a bunch of answer cards and you have to be slow and you have to fit into the model of Landstill. Landstill: the least successful control deck in the history of Magic. Yes, you can try to balance the curve with all these different answers, and you have to hope you draw the right mix of answers to beat the right mix of threats. I think the history of high-level Legacy play has shown that this isn't the right approach to take. It's significantly better to be proactive than reactive. Adding Planeswalkers is a good step for this, because you can ignore all your opponent's removal. But you've still got 11 dedicated removal spells in the maindeck and another 4 in the sideboard. You're trying to kill all these creatures, when it seems like running Moat is much better. Sure, you've got this vulnerability to Qasali Pridemage and Krosan Grip. But at least that's a problem you can deal with (by running extra copies, by getting access to Pithing Needle for Pridemage, etc).

Why are all the 4 drops problematic? You have 9 nonbasic lands that produce mana, and only 6 basics. You're splashing for removal spells you want to cast early; you're in big trouble if you have to, say, Doom Blade a creature from New Horizons because you're almost certainly going to lose that land. Where is the basic Swamp?

See, this seems like a faithful implementation of the strategy and is designed to address these weakenesses. You have Academy Ruins to beat their Academy Ruins, and you also get EE + Academy Ruins if you want it. You have Needle for Pridemage/Survival/whatever. You have Moat instead of Wrath of God. The mana is better.
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm

4 Firespout
4 Wall of Omens
3 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

3 Jace, the Mindsculptor

3 Trinket Mage

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
8 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins

Edit: And yes, I'm concerned about running 6 4-drops with only 24 lands. It helps that I can run out Wall of Omens turn 2 without any setup, and that I run fewer nonbasics. I'd like to find a cut for the 25th land, no question.

Infinitium

07-15-2010, 12:21 PM

You could run Seat of the Synod in one of the Island slots and have Trinket Mage help curve into your 4cc spells.

Hanni

07-15-2010, 12:41 PM

If you don't want feedback from people, don't post a thread. I guarantee you the vast majority of people who post on the thread have never played it before. That's the price of posting on a forum. If you're going to meet every criticism with "You haven't played it, you're just theorycrafting." then just delete the post. Yes, I'm generalizing based off my experience with CounterTop Thopter. I'm also generalizing based on my experience with just about every version of CounterTop decks ever. I helped BrassMan test and tune some of the early versions of his GP-second place list. So no, I haven't shuffled this list up. But I can look at it and have a pretty good idea of how it will play based on vast experience with Legacy blue decks. For the rest of this post, I'm going to edit out all your "Waaah you've never played my deck" comments in my quotes, to keep the rest of the discussion civilized.

Ok, so yea guys, I found Oblivion Ring was bad in this one deck I played with, that played way differently than this deck. But hey, it just has to be bad in this deck, because it was bad in that one!

I didn't post this thread and say "please help me with my deck because it just isn't working and I need suggestions." I posted my decklist because I've been playtesting with this deck for around 2 years now, it's finally evolved far enough away from Landstill to deserve its own thread, and I wanted to share it with the Legacy Community. This thread may be in New and Developmental, but this list is anything but N&D. So yes, before making horrible suggestions while using/having an extremely arrogant tone, I'd either expect that you tested the deck first, or I'm simply not going to take you serious. In this case, that means I'm not going to take you serious.

I'm totally okay with unblanking Zoo's removal. I am completely okay with playing Wall of Omens, drawing a card and then the opponent having to burn a Path to Exile on it. That's being able to cast Jace a turn faster, being able to cast Wrath a turn faster, etc. Sure, it's less good than Predict against Counterbalance. However, seeing as Zoo is likely to be the most popular deck by a mile, I'm okay with that. If you can't set up Predict, Wall of Omens is actually better (both get you one card, this also affects the board).
It dies to your Wrath of Gods, which is okay because you don't actually care if it survives. Your Wrath of Gods won't be very good if you force you to deal with one or two threats at a time; then you're spending 4 mana to kill a Nacatl or two. I'm in favor of changing Wrath of Gods to either Firespout or Moat, both of which Wall of Omens has awesome synergy with. Casting turn 2 Wall of Omens, forcing them to overextend and then Firespouting all their cats away (keeping Wall of Omens) is pretty much the best you can hope for.

So you're willing to play a horrible card, that is decent in one matchup? I could understand if this deck was auto-folding to Zoo and needed maindeck hate, but Zoo is already a good matchup.

Clearly, you have never played with Predict, at least not recently. How can you even make suggestions or critiques about it? You know what, nevermind. Forget I even bothered.

You're also in favor of dropping Wrath of God because you have no idea what you're talking about. Firespout answers a small portion of the metagame, Wrath of God answers everything. Hell, even against the same deck you want Firespout for, it doesn't answer Tarmogoyf or Knight of The Reliquary (or Burning Tree Shaman).

Also, Moat isn't a permanent solution. So yea, all of those non-Tombstalker non-Vendilion Clique non-other commonly played fliers cannot attack anymore. Who cares that his Grim Lavamancer is still burning me out, and that his Dark Confidant is still drawing him cards. At least he can't attack me, right? Oh crap, there's a Krosan Grip, now I'm alpha striked ftl. Damn.

I'm not trying to say Moat isn't a strong card, or that Firespout isn't a great answer to a deck like Goblins. What I am saying is that neither of those cards do what Wrath of God does, which is to unconditionally destroy every creature on the board. If I end up taking out 3 guys with 1 Wrath of God, chances are that I'm so far ahead of my opponent now that they can't come back (meaning, I have too many more answers than they have threats).

I think you've gotten locked into this mindset where you think you have to be a control deck and you have to have a bunch of answer cards and you have to be slow and you have to fit into the model of Landstill. Landstill: the least successful control deck in the history of Magic.

Hahaha. Haha. Hahaha. Ok dude, I don't even understand how you can expect to be taken seriously at this point. Up until just recently, Landstill has been the premier control deck of the Legacy format, was part of the DTB for a very long time, and has Top 8's littered throughout Legacy since the format's inception.

It's only been just recently that the power creep has rendered the cards in Landstill too underpowered to adequately keep up. This deck is the evolution of Landstill, replacing those underpowered cards with cards that meet the power level of Legacy. The gameplan and playstyle still remains very similar.

tl;dr You have no idea what you are talking about.

It's significantly better to be proactive than reactive.

Yes, that's why proactive combo decks have historically had autowins against reactive decks like Threshold, right?

You're trying to kill all these creatures, when it seems like running Moat is much better. Sure, you've got this vulnerability to Qasali Pridemage and Krosan Grip. But at least that's a problem you can deal with (by running extra copies, by getting access to Pithing Needle for Pridemage, etc).

Sure, resolving a virtual removal spell like Moat is pretty good. The problem isn't that getting hit by Qasali Pridemage or Krosan Grip is a problem that can be dealt with by grabbing and playing another. The problem is that all of the virtual card advantage you gained from Moat is lost when it is destroyed. I can understand how it would seem like Moat is just indefinitely stronger in a control deck that runs a card disadvantage tutor rather than a card advantage draw spell. Clearly, this comes back down to you not knowing what you are talking about because your basing your opinions from a deck that is very different.

If I resolve Wrath of God in my deck, and it kills 2-3 creatures, that typically puts me far enough ahead that I now control the gamestate. The rest of the deck is designed to dominate the board once I control the gamestate. Moat is a crutch for ThopterTop, Wrath of God is support for WalkerTop.

Why are all the 4 drops problematic? You have 9 nonbasic lands that produce mana, and only 6 basics. You're splashing for removal spells you want to cast early; you're in big trouble if you have to, say, Doom Blade a creature from New Horizons because you're almost certainly going to lose that land. Where is the basic Swamp?

Oh man, more theorycrafting.

I don't even know how to respond here dude. I completely roll New Horizons like no tomorrow, yet you're telling me that I run too few lands and too many 4cc spells... to be able to beat them? I don't understand.

You've never actually played the deck before, but you're qualified to say that I run too few lands and too many 4cc spells because you helped someone build a CounterTop deck before that ended up Top 2'ing a GP? Gotchya.

Btw, can I call you Steven Birklid? :)

@ list

I'm not going to critique your list. This is the wrong thread for that decklist.

DragoFireheart

07-15-2010, 12:57 PM

Anusien, theorycrafting is good and all, but unless you can provide something other than your personal anecdotes you really have no more credibility then Hanni. Please stop asserting yourself that you are right and he is wrong based solely on your personal experience and nothing else. If Hannis deck is as flawed as you claim, give us data to support your claims (which shouldn't be difficult to obtain if you are correct).

Better yet, how about you and Hanni test decks on MWS together?

Hanni

07-15-2010, 01:09 PM

If Hannis deck is as flawed as you claim, give us data to support your claims (which shouldn't be difficult to obtain if you are correct).

Technically, he's not the one that needs to provide data, since this isn't is deck. I'd be the one who needs to provide data, except that I'm not in a position (financially) to go to tournaments right now.

However, I'm going to let Anusien say whatever he wants, as he's already proven to me that he has no credibility. The rest of you can interpret whatever he says however you want.

DragoFireheart

07-15-2010, 01:16 PM

Technically, he's not the one that needs to provide data, since this isn't is deck. I'd be the one who needs to provide data, except that I'm not in a position (financially) to go to tournaments right now.

However, I'm going to let Anusien say whatever he wants, as he's already proven to me that he has no credibility. The rest of you can interpret whatever he says however you want.

First, you don't need to provide any data as you aren't claiming this to be some tier 1 deck. That's why this deck sits in the N&D forums and not the Established forums: it's a work in progress. You said "hey, i got this cool deck idea" so your way of providing data is to post a list along with your reasoning. Seconds, if he makes claims that this deck can't work as is, he should do so with data supporting such: he won't find any as this is. surprise surprise, a new deck idea!

His comments would be more apporiate if this deck were in the Established forum.

Edit: What I meant by not you needing to provide data is because you are still in the process of tweaking this deck. It's only then when you feel this is ready for the next forum that you should provide data to show that this is a new archtype.

DragoFireheart

07-15-2010, 01:19 PM

Is that actually something you want to do? Are you that bothered by EE recursion to kill Jaces?

Considering he has only 4 win cons, yeah, maybe that is a worry.

Hanni

07-15-2010, 01:26 PM

Edit: What I meant by not you needing to provide data is because you are still in the process of tweaking this deck. It's only then when you feel this is ready for the next forum that you should provide data to show that this is a new archtype.

I do feel like this is ready for the next forum. I don't think it should have been in N&D in the first place, but since it's so radically different from Landstill, I posted it in N&D because that's where it belonged.

First, you don't need to provide any data as you aren't claiming this to be some tier 1 deck.

But I do feel like this deck has the potential to be a Tier 1 deck.

My bad. I thought we were interested in making the best deck we possibly could. You're completely right in that it's never a risk to get Wrath of God Dazed. You'll never be forced to cast Doom Blade and get your Underground Sea Wastelanded.

Please forgive my ignorance. I didn't realize that this deck was perfect. Thank you, sir for delivering it unto us like manna from the heavens. I just have one question: did you run into the UW Tempo guys when you were up on Mount Sinai?

I am interested in making the best possible deck. Maindeck Wall of Omen's isn't the way to do that.

How is Wrath of God getting Dazed any different than Moat getting Dazed?

I run 2 Doom Blades, not 4. I also know that I don't blindly fetch/play black sources unless I intend to cast said spell. Luckily, I run 3 more black sources if my first black source gets Wasted. I really fail to see how this is productive discussion in making the best deck possible... my manabase is extremely strong, yet you are assuming that it's the opposite. Lack of playtesting ftw?

And it's not about your ignorance, Anusien. It's about your arrogance. If you posted in a demeanor that questioned those choices, etc, that would be one thing. Instead, you posted in a way that basically said "I know exactly what I am talking about, I'm right and you're wrong, your decklist right now sucks, this is what I'd do to fix it," and then you gave horrible suggestions on how to fix it.

My position in regards to your suggestions is nothing like UW Tempo; in fact, your arrogance has more in common with that thread than anything else. If you're going to be an asshole, at least read the rest of the thread before you post.

A) Haven't read the thread.
B) Haven't playtested with the deck.
C) Arrogant tone.
D) Make claims that are obviously false, like saying Landstill has historically been a bad deck.
E) Comparing the attitude of the guys in the UW Tempo thread to the attitude in here.

Anusien, you're not helping any, you're just pissing me off. Please leave.

DragoFireheart

07-15-2010, 01:43 PM

I do feel like this is ready for the next forum. I don't think it should have been in N&D in the first place, but since it's so radically different from Landstill, I posted it in N&D because that's where it belonged.

But I do feel like this deck has the potential to be a Tier 1 deck.

Then you need the data (tournament results, testing, detailed match-up %, etc). Otherwise, it sits here regardless of what anyone thinks.

The Treefolk Master

07-15-2010, 01:44 PM

I've been testing the deck as a straight UW version (not looking to overheat MORE the discussion about vindicate and the different splashes), and it has been giving me good results.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
7 [UNH] Island
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [U] Tundra
1 [NE] Kor Haven
4 [UNH] Plains

// Spells
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [OD] Predict
3 [DD2] Counterspell
2 [10E] Wrath of God
1 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
.
There are some minor changes with the win conditions, as I added 1 Jace (been good so far) and made a split between Wrath/DoJ.

The predicts have never shown up in testing (I just cast it once and drew it very few times) so I don't have anything profitable to say about them.

I also added a pair of Vedalken Shackles and they have been fantastic.

As you can notice, the sideboard is only 13 cards. Any ideas for the 2 remaining slots? Any other suggestions?

I haven't tested any splashes (YET) because I have a sick love for UW control.

Hanni

07-15-2010, 01:46 PM

Then you need the data (tournament results, testing, detailed match-up %, etc). Otherwise, it sits here regardless of what anyone thinks.

I shall quote your quote with another quote (quoting myself):

Technically, he's not the one that needs to provide data, since this isn't is deck. I'd be the one who needs to provide data, except that I'm not in a position (financially) to go to tournaments right now.

And another:

I didn't post this thread and say "please help me with my deck because it just isn't working and I need suggestions." I posted my decklist because I've been playtesting with this deck for around 2 years now, it's finally evolved far enough away from Landstill to deserve its own thread, and I wanted to share it with the Legacy Community. This thread may be in New and Developmental, but this list is anything but N&D.

---

As you can notice, the sideboard is only 13 cards. Any ideas for the 2 remaining slots? Any other suggestions?

Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle.

DragoFireheart

07-15-2010, 01:59 PM

Regardless, we need more data. The deck list has potentinal though and I am more worried about Merfolk and Countertop Thopter than Zoo.

Hanni

07-15-2010, 02:08 PM

Regardless, we need more data.

Understood, and agreed.

The deck list has potentinal though and I am more worried about Merfolk and Countertop Thopter than Zoo.

Merfolk is definitely a matchup to be concerned with. It was a bad matchup for Landstill, and is a bad matchup for most CounterTop decks. I'd say that it's slightly unfavorable in game 1, and slightly favorable in games 2 and 3. That's from my experience against it so far. Hopefully, Merfolk's popularity will decrease because of Zoo's popularity.

I'm not too worried about CounterTop Thopter, but I'd definitely like to playtest that matchup more.

Mon,Goblin Chief

07-15-2010, 03:31 PM

Actually, something like CBT(h)opter should probably be pretty high on your list of worrysome matchups (preboard when you don't have access to EE - and with the (non-existant) speed of both decks, game 1 gains a lot of importance): It is far better at setting up a fast CB-Top lock than you are (4 Tutors better, to be exact), you only have two outs to CB and, most ugly, the fact that you have constructed your own curve around CB makes it a very strong lock vs your deck. It also has Ruins-EE for the lockout, especially if they are good enough to splash an off-color fourth dual for EE, which you don't have a real answer to. The major difference to other CB decks - and the one that makes this a very different matchup from the Goyf-based ones - is that all of your creature removal is dead as that deck has an actual good wincon, meaning all your removal aside from the two Vindicate does essentially nothing.
That is not at all meant to imply that Thopter will be an auto-loss, having actual carddrawing still counts for something. But if you're worried about something with CB in it, it should probably be the one good deck running it. To draw a parallel, losing to CBTop Goyf with JaceTM is nigh impossible, the Thopter-deck is about nearly even/slighty favorable - and I have four EEs (and Ruins/TWest) and don't care much about being CB-locked against that deck because of its slow clock (but I also have no CBs of my own to lock them out, either). The good thing is that Thopter has a certain tendency to self-destruct in control on control because it's missing an actual draw-engine - as I learned the hard way running the deck (though that is strongly mitigated if the opponent is vulnerable to CB).
Having Elspeths where I have Jaces also places you at a disadvantage compared to JaceTM in this matchup, as having a Jace online for 2 turns usually translates into a win in control on control, in my experience. Elspeth should be pretty neglegible for them at least for some time, they're a lot better at making 1/1s (and Elspeth doesn't answer Jace easily in control on control).
All this to say I'd be surprised if the matchup is much different than 50:50, maybe a little worse G1 and a little better G2-3 once you get your EEs.

As for the whole debate with Anusien, I'm sure that he's right that the aggro-matchups would profit from a) splashing Firespout and b) using Wall of Omens.What I don't agree with looking at the deck is the necessity to push the aggro-matchup in that way (as for the Moat-plan, I love Moat, but losing G2/3 to Grip on a regular basis doesn't appeal to me at all. Actually when building our own version of CBThopter we SBed out both Moat and 2-3 Counterbalances against Zoo for spotremoval because we realized that in long games relying on Enchantment-based defense never ended well, as they'd invariably find a Grip after ten turns of stalling and just kill you. Going for straight removal into Thopters/Jace was far more efficient).
In general people seem, to me, to be far too focused on beating aggro when considering how to build decks ever since Mystical was banned. Wall of Omens sure is good against creatures, but against anything else it's a bad cycler. All the people building that way will fall prey to the other players running control built to beat up creatures but who actually thought about the fact that they might face another control-deck (or TES, DDay and Lands). Having less combo doesn't mean that you can just ignore everything else when building your deck.
I haven't come around to testing this deck yet myself, but if you say it fares well against aggro post-board at the latest, I'm ready to believe it seeing the (post-SB) removal-count and its ability to ignore PoP through careful fetching (I am somewhat sceptical of the whole CB-lock plan against Zoo postboard, for the reasons described in the Thopter-commentary above. The removal into Planeswalker plan otoh is sick beats against Zoo).

Finally, another land is always a good thing for control-decks, so if I saw room, I'd definitely try to push another one in - I'm a sucker for lands. For the moment I don't see anything to cut and the curve is low enough (and there are enough basics) that I consider it quite probable that 23 will prove to be sufficient. I won't give any more decided comment on this till I have actually run some games with the deck (I still think you should replace the second Scrubland, though. It seems unnecessary and having fewer non-basics/ones with a bigger upside is always good - Academy Ruins, a Fetch or basic Plains/Swamp seem like solid options. Only because the manabase did work without trouble for you so far doesn't mean that it couldn't be made even better by trying out a few tweaks, right?).

Hanni

07-16-2010, 11:19 PM

Actually, something like CBT(h)opter should probably be pretty high on your list of worrysome matchups

Well, maybe you're right. I've only gotten to play against it twice, and I won both times, but it's very probable that my opponent's were bad (it was MWS), and it's probable that I got lucky (2 games is too small of a sample size). That's why I said I'd like to playtest it more.

I realize that it's different than other CBT matchups like Bant (which is a good matchup), and I consider it to be a control mirror. Both of us have dead removal, albeit they have less dead removal because they silver bullet for theirs.

I guess the reason I assumed it wasn't something to be too worried about was because they run card disadvantage instead of card advantage, and that they run an easily disruptable/answerable win condition in Thopter/Sword, whereas my Planeswalker's are bombs against them. As far as I know, most Thopter lists only have one 4cc spell for their Counterbalance (Moat), although I'm sure more and more will start to play Jace as that deck evolves.

You are right though: they have the ability to assemble their CounterTop lock much easier than me because they have E Tutor, and they also have the ability to eventually get a Ruins/EE lock going.

Again, I'd rather do some more actual playtesting before commenting much more on this matchup. What I do know is, that if this matchup is problematic, and if Thopter does become popular, I could put more Vindicates and some Pithing Needles in the sideboard to address this matchup. There's always the red splash with Red Elemental Blasts, if shit hits the fan. Going 4c means I'd have EE @ 4, and I could toss in a Ruins or two for the Ruins/EE lock. However, I doubt that the matchup needs addressed that excessively, especially without hurting other matchups.

As for the whole debate with Anusien, I'm sure that he's right that the aggro-matchups would profit from a) splashing Firespout and b) using Wall of Omens.What I don't agree with looking at the deck is the necessity to push the aggro-matchup in that way (as for the Moat-plan, I love Moat, but losing G2/3 to Grip on a regular basis doesn't appeal to me at all. Actually when building our own version of CBThopter we SBed out both Moat and 2-3 Counterbalances against Zoo for spotremoval because we realized that in long games relying on Enchantment-based defense never ended well, as they'd invariably find a Grip after ten turns of stalling and just kill you. Going for straight removal into Thopters/Jace was far more efficient).

Splashing Firespout would be great against Goblins and Merfolk, and decent against Zoo. Wall of Omens is decent against Zoo, and bad against everything else. Both of those options are narrow and answer a specific matchup or set of matchups, making them narrow maindeck cards. Firespout makes alot more sense than Wall of Omen's, since it directly answers my worst matchups (Goblins/Merfolk), but it requires that I splash into a color that offers less against other matchups. I could go 4c, sure, but I feel like the aggro matchups are addressed adequately postboard with the current (black) splash.

What I don't understand is why people are obsessed with Firespout over Wrath of God. Yes, it's better against decks where they both have the same effect, since it costs 3 mana instead of 4. Yes, it's particularly better against those decks because they run taxing disruption like Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and Daze. However, this deck can still effectively cast Wrath of God against those decks, while not being dead against other common matchups, like Bant Aggro, New Horizons, etc. Even against Zoo, I'd rather have Wrath of God over Firespout against everything but their nuts draw (1cc creature turn 1, two 1cc creatures turn 2, relevant turn 3).

Postboard, I have the ability to board into so much removal that it becomes irrelevant what the actual removal spells are.

In general people seem, to me, to be far too focused on beating aggro when considering how to build decks ever since Mystical was banned.

I agree 100%.

Wall of Omens sure is good against creatures, but against anything else it's a bad cycler.

It's not good against Lord of Atlantis, it's not good when it turns on otherwise dead removal like Warren Wierding and Swords to Plowshares, it's not good against big creatures like 4/5 Tarmogoyfs, and it's not good against flyers like Vendilion Clique. UBg/w Landstill has been around for a while but I've never seen anyone suggest Wall of Blossom's in that thread. Tarmogoyf, yea, but a wall? Not so much. Especially not as a replacement for their draw engine (Standstill). Sure, my draw engine (Predict) isn't a namesake card in this deck like Standstill is in Landstill, but still (no pun intended). I understand that you weren't the one who suggested that I cut my draw (Predict) for the Wall of Omen's, I'm simply explaining why Wall of Omen's is bad.

All the people building that way will fall prey to the other players running control built to beat up creatures but who actually thought about the fact that they might face another control-deck (or TES, DDay and Lands).

Right, I think being mindful of the control mirror is important. Whether it be TES, DDay, Lands, or whatever. For combo, I feel like adding CounterTop to Landstill was a huge improvement.

Against Lands, I simply try to keep them off of going broken (Manabond and Intuition) and stick a Planeswalker ASAP. Jace is much stronger than Elspeth, but Elspeth can still push through for a win. Postboard, the Relics come in to keep them off of Loam, and the matchup gets much better. Depending on the matchup, I can also bring in EE and/or Meddling Mage to replace my dead removal spells. Overall, I'd say the matchup is slightly unfavored game 1, and it becomes slightly favorable in games 2 and 3. I don't have enough playtesting with this matchup, so my experience is very limited and my matchup results could be skewed because of this.

I haven't come around to testing this deck yet myself, but if you say it fares well against aggro post-board at the latest, I'm ready to believe it seeing the (post-SB) removal-count and its ability to ignore PoP through careful fetching (I am somewhat sceptical of the whole CB-lock plan against Zoo postboard, for the reasons described in the Thopter-commentary above. The removal into Planeswalker plan otoh is sick beats against Zoo).

I run 16 removal spells postboard for Zoo, and 18 removal spells postboard for Goblins/Merfolk. If that doesn't make my deck fare well against those matchups, I don't know what possibly could.

The CB lock against Zoo is amazing. If you don't wanna take my word for it, go ask Zoo players how they feel about it.

Finally, another land is always a good thing for control-decks, so if I saw room, I'd definitely try to push another one in - I'm a sucker for lands. For the moment I don't see anything to cut and the curve is low enough (and there are enough basics) that I consider it quite probable that 23 will prove to be sufficient. I won't give any more decided comment on this till I have actually run some games with the deck (I still think you should replace the second Scrubland, though. It seems unnecessary and having fewer non-basics/ones with a bigger upside is always good - Academy Ruins, a Fetch or basic Plains/Swamp seem like solid options. Only because the manabase did work without trouble for you so far doesn't mean that it couldn't be made even better by trying out a few tweaks, right?).

Right, I wasn't disagreeing about that. There's a difference between suggesting that adding a land could be beneficial, and straight up saying that 23 lands is too few without ever having playtested with the deck.

Another land wouldn't hurt, sure. This is a control deck that likes land drops. I've playtested with the deck alot, and between Brainstorm and Top, 23 has worked out perfectly for me. I'm not running 4 Mishra's Factories and 4 Wasteland's like UBg Landstill, for instance, and my only non-colored land is a 1-of Kor Haven. I run 6 basics, and the 4 Island/2 Plains can cast every single spell in my deck, aside from the 2 Doom Swords and 2 Vindicates. Adding a 24th land could be better than running 23, but my list is so tight that I have no idea what I'd cut, and again, I've been very happy with running 23. If I find myself running into issues with my landcount in the future, adding more land is always possible.

For right now, I feel like my manabase is incredibly stable, but you may be right, that it isn't necessarily the best it could possibly be. I've been satisfied with the 2nd Scrubland, but I'm sure that it could be an Academy Ruins, Swamp, or Plains instead. I'm content in playing with my current configuration, but those options are definitely up for debate. Perfect example: Heroicraptor has been trying a version with a basic Swamp.

---

Completely unrelated, but a possible* reason to choose this deck over Thopter:

I'm not sure, but it would seem to me like Bant would give Thopter some serious headaches. I've never playtested that matchup, so I could be completely wrong, but I mean... Thopter wants to resolve a combo that is extremely disruptable to the Bant player. They have the countermagic magic package to stop it (FoW/Daze, CounterTop, Spell Snare), artifact/enchantment removal (Qasali, Grip, EE), and the clock to kill them before they do finally assemble their combo. Yea, Moat/Humility/Ensnaring Bridge could be slightly problematic against Bant, but to me, it seems like Bant has the edge in that matchup. Again, I've never actually playtested that matchup, so I could be complely wrong.

Looking at tournament results: Metagame Analysis (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18263-Metagame-analysis), I'd argue that Bant is an important matchup to be favored against.

I know that my deck has a strong Bant matchup.

*Does anyone have any experience with the Thopter vs Bant matchup? If so, could you please explain.

heroicraptor

07-17-2010, 12:05 AM

Honestly, I only want the basic swamp versus decks with wasteland recursion or bloodmoon. Unless I have a bunch of land, I don't like drawing it. I'm gonna try an Academy Ruins in the spot. EE recursion is savage.

Doks

07-17-2010, 10:24 AM

I have tried the deck in exactly that U/W/b version. Strong against the general majority of the field, admitted. But here some things that still annoy me.

Once again, the number of Predicts:

in Hanni's list I'd always run 4 for the sake of 12 CC2 cards. In the deck I played few weeks ago without black I could go down to 3 now because of 2 Hoofprints of the Stag, but you always have to reach 12 CC 2 at least so Predict is an auto 4of with only 4 Counterspell and 4 Counterbalance.

Wincons:

Planeswalkers are strong, resilent and do more than only serving as a kill, no discussion. But sometimes, I feel like having another option might make my live while playing this deck easier. DoJ is without no doubt too slow and does not really fit in here. And this is where I started Hoofprints of the Stag and I missed it somehow.

Vedalken Shackles:

I will just repeat myself, but everyone who has not tried them out a few times in this deck, please do it now.

Vindicate:

Strong allround choice, but still only a 1-1 trade and so far the only real big reason for me to splash black. There are decks that run more than one or two really unhealthy disrupting permanents or will drop more copies of these.
I have to admit, something better has not come to my mind yet.

So far, I g2g now, I'll add some more explanation later.

nexus blue

07-17-2010, 02:17 PM

I agree with Doks that an extra win condition couldn't hurt. I tried Luminarch Ascension, but it just seemed too slow. Hanni, you had suggested I try Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek since I was also running E. Tutors and I held off, not wanting to give in. However, I've done some more testing on MWS and some live play and have given in. It's a straight U/W build that utilizes what I like best about your creation (Planeswalker beats, Predicts, lack of actual creatures that might suffer for removal) and what I like about ThopterTop (a secondary win condition, using E. Tutors as a toolbox for multiple answers to different threats). I posted the list in the Countertop Thopter thread, as I didn't want to clog this one up (and since b/c of the Thopters it doesn't belong here). If I had the duals and Vindicates I'd love to give Hanni's original version a try, but.....

Good luck with your build, I hope it gets recongnized soon.

Monochrome

07-18-2010, 10:00 PM

I really like the ideas behind this deck. I've been trying to come to a decision over which control deck to play, and am currently trying to choose between some version of Walker control (of which I like this one the best), CounterTop Thopters, or even a more traditional U/W/b/g Landstill build.

You talk about match ups in terms of good, bad, or even. I was just wondering if you could put a % on some of the more popular decks one might face (Zoo, CT-Bant with and w/o NO, Merfolk, Goblins). Is there any match-up at all that you think is sub 50%, including games 1, 2, and 3?.

In any case I'm going to sleeve it up and do some testing over the next 2 weeks at home and my local events and see how it handles. I would like to see this or some other variant be the "control deck of choice" for Legacy rather than Lands, for which I have an unnatural hate for >.>

heroicraptor

07-19-2010, 10:47 PM

I've hated drawing Academy Ruins every time I've drawn it, so I moved it to the side, and put the basic Swamp back in. I cut one EE from the side for the Ruins, so I can side it in when I want/need to recur EE.

Hanni

07-19-2010, 10:48 PM

You talk about match ups in terms of good, bad, or even. I was just wondering if you could put a % on some of the more popular decks one might face (Zoo, CT-Bant with and w/o NO, Merfolk, Goblins). Is there any match-up at all that you think is sub 50%, including games 1, 2, and 3?.

I'm not a mathmetician, so any percentages that I come up with aren't going to be 100% accurate. I can attempt to set the percentages to what I feel they most closely resemble, but at the end of the day, it's just more accurate for me to use words like highly favorable, favorable, slightly favorable, even 50/50, etc.

In the future, after I get more dedicated testing against specific decks, I can attempt to compile some actual percentages. For right now, I don't have a testing partner, so my testing against specific decks comes at random times, against random opponent's.

There have been a few games that I have lost 0-2, but I'm not sure if that necessarily classifies those matchups as sub 50%.

One recent game where I went 0-2 was against a black/white deck that ran 4 Hymn to Tourach, 4 Gerrards Verdict, and other Pox-ish cards (Smallpox, Vindicate, etc). His win conditions were The Rack and Phyrexian Totem (from what I saw). The problem with this matchup is that it attacks both of the resources that are important to me (lands, and cards in hand), has answers to my Planeswalkers and Counterbalance with Vindicate, and has win conditions that blank most of my removal (The Rack is only destroyed by Vindicate, Totem dodges Doom Blade and WoG). I brought in EE's postboard, but still lost the second game.

I'm not sure if the B/W Pox matchup is sub 50%, since I only played one 2/3 game set against it. That's a likely candidate, though.

Dredge is another bad matchup, but I have 11 relevant sideboard cards against them, so it gets much better postboard. I don't think I'd consider the matchup sub 50% because of the postboard games being slightly favorable. Dredge is an easy matchup to hate out with sideboard hate, and that's essentially what I have access to.

Vial Aggro can be unfavorable in game 1 depending on the draws (both mine, and the opponent's). However, those matchups become highly favorable in postboard games because I have so many removal spells. These matchups remain favorable overall.

For the most part, this deck has at least a 50/50 against a majority of the format, due to nature of the deck. It is a reactive control deck with answers to literally everything between maindeck and sideboard, so there's very little that the deck can't answer with tight play and/or good draws. Most matchups are better than 50/50, and the deck has blowouts as well.

I can make a mini primer in the OP to address matchup analysis between Zoo, Bant (and its different varieties), Merfolk, and Goblins. I'll work on that as I get time. Also, if anyone is interested in helping me do big playtesting sessions on MWS, I'd greatly appreciate that as well (just PM me).

I've hated drawing Academy Ruins every time I've drawn it, so I moved it to the side, and put the basic Swamp back in. I cut one EE from the side for the Ruins, so I can side it in when I want/need to recur EE.

Now that's not a bad idea. Sideboarding a singleton Academy Ruins for the control mirror is something I may start playtesting soon.

Monochrome

07-19-2010, 11:54 PM

As far as the CounterTop Thopters match is concerned, my friend and I were playtesting the mirror extensively the last 2 days, and I would say that in the majority of the games (80% or more), the winner was deterimined by who go their Counter/Top active first, or whoever had it stay around the longest. I would think that U/W/x CounterTop Walker vs CounterTop Thopters would boil down to the same conclusion, with Hanni's list coming out slightly favorable post board due to GY hate and Meddling Mage coming in for irrelevant creature removal. Obviously I haven't tested Hanni's list vs Thopters yet but thats just my 2 cents on how I'd expect it to go.

Hanni

07-20-2010, 12:00 AM

Predict is savage tech against Enlightened Tutor.

Monochrome

07-20-2010, 01:12 AM

Predict is savage tech against Enlightened Tutor.

That too. Totally forgot when you orignally talked about doing that to Mystical Tutor decks that it would work exactly the same way against Enlightened Tutor decks lol.

EDIT: I was just thinking, would either Proganda or Ghostly Prison be useful in this deck? I know neither were ever a part of a standard Landstill List, but they each cost one less than Wrath of God, and accomplish a similar goal of halting a creature onslaught. Obviously they don't permanently solve the problem, and the opponent can still get in one or 2 creatures worth of damage if they don't advance their plan, but in an early/mid game situation they are just as useful as Wrath and hit a turn earlier. Multiples are never bad, you can still handle troublesome creatures with spot removal, and assuming you use Proganda, it also pitches to Force if needed. The only other big problem I see is that using Prop opens your answer to their creatures up to enchantment removal, whereas Wrath can only be countered. What do you think?

Hanni

07-20-2010, 11:23 PM

EDIT: I was just thinking, would either Proganda or Ghostly Prison be useful in this deck? I know neither were ever a part of a standard Landstill List, but they each cost one less than Wrath of God, and accomplish a similar goal of halting a creature onslaught. Obviously they don't permanently solve the problem, and the opponent can still get in one or 2 creatures worth of damage if they don't advance their plan, but in an early/mid game situation they are just as useful as Wrath and hit a turn earlier. Multiples are never bad, you can still handle troublesome creatures with spot removal, and assuming you use Proganda, it also pitches to Force if needed. The only other big problem I see is that using Prop opens your answer to their creatures up to enchantment removal, whereas Wrath can only be countered. What do you think?

Without an mana denial, they won't be halting onslaught's very much. These spells do not promote over-extending either, so they really serve no purpose in this deck.

However, I'm starting to warm up to Vedalken Shackles more and more. It's just so powerful at locking the game down against aggro decks once you get to the midgame. I'm currently playtesting 1 Shackles main, but I'm likely going to fit 1-2 Shackles in the sideboard too.

Hanni

07-21-2010, 12:37 AM

I normally don't double post, but I have a new developmental list I'd like to share:

U/W/b CounterTop Walker

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [UNH] Island
3 [UNH] Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [AP] Vindicate
2 [7E] Wrath of God
1 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

I decided to cut the MD Doom Blades. I really want to maintain 3 WoG effects MD, but I also want to keep 1 MD Shackles. I could run a singleton Doom Blade, but I decided to just put the Predict count back to 4 for now.

Without the Doom Blades MD, I need less black sources, so I cut the 2nd Scrubland for another basic Plains.

I also decided to tweak my sideboard around. I've been doing alot of Merfolk playtesting lately, and while the 1-for-1 trades are fine, I find myself often wanting ways to increase the card advantage. Without CounterTop, I become very dependant on gaining card advantage through my removal spells and Predict.

Sometimes, Merfolk just plays more threats than I have removal for, when all I have is 1-for-1's. Vedalken Shackles is MVP in the Merfolk matchup. Thus, I put a 2nd copy in the sideboard.

I decided that since combo is on its way out, Duress is probably better than Meddling Mage. I lose my clock against combo, but Duress is still good against combo while being better against the control mirror. I cut 2 Relic's for 2 Pithing Needle's, just to see how it goes. I also added a single Academy Ruins to bring in against relevant control mirrors. The single Ruins may prove to be unecessary, in which case it could become a 3rd Relic or Needle.

This sideboard change is just developmental; I'm trying to figure out the right mix of cards to handle all forms of aggro, aggro/control, and control.

Hanni

07-22-2010, 04:11 AM

After playtesting against Rico Suave using Dreadstill, it has become apparent to me that this is a horrible matchup. They're Standstill + Factory package is superior to my Predict + Planeswalker package in the mirror. They are also better at successfully assembling an early CounterTop, and better at keeping me from resolving an early CounterTop. Postboard, their REB's neutralize my Duress, so I gain no ground.

Card advantage is a key aspect of control mirrors. They are better at gaining card advantage. They neutralize my Vedalken Shackles and WoG engines (Nought and Factory respectively). They gain more card advantage, and faster, with Standstill (compared to Predict). They have superiority in the CounterTop war, with CounterTop ultimately being a big source of card advantage. They're manlands make Jace ineffective, and multiple Factories/Trinket Mages and/or Dreadnought makes Elspeth ineffective.

Evidently, this is a very bad matchup. I'm not sure how to fix this matchup, either.

Duress is clearly necessary, because without it, the matchup is much worse. Needle seems like the strongest option possible, since shutting down Mishra's Factory means shutting down Standstill.

I'd like to do alot more playtesting regarding this matchup. I still want more testing against Merfolk as well. If anyone would like to playtest tomorrow night (on MWS), send me a PM. Thanks.

Mon,Goblin Chief

07-22-2010, 06:38 AM

Damn it, forum ate my first attempt at this...

In my experience, too, Mishras are a big problem in control-mirrors where only one side has them. Both decks are so good at disrupting the other that having a 2/2 beater as part of your manabase becomes a pretty fearsome threat that can create a lot of tempo-advantage (especially post-SB when you want to reduce your removal-count). Everything else dies and the Mishra's keep churning. It's actually akin to old Vintage Keeper-mirrors were I regularly got to deal 10+ damage with a lowly Gorilla Shaman. The best solutions I have found for this are running your own Mishras and/or Wastelands. The fact that the solutions can't easily be countered - and in this particular matchup don't trigger Standstill - is pretty huge. One of the reasons JaceTM's matchup is good against all forms of Mishra + Standstill-decks is that it has more lands that actively win the manland-fight than they do. A minor modification of your manabase like even just adding 2 or 3 Wastelands would likely do wonders against all decks running manlands, as they allow you to stop the tempo-advantage the lands generate during the drawn-out fight for control. This frailty in the mirror was in my experience one of the biggest weaknesses of the manasource-only manabase when I was starting to built my own control-decks in Legacy instead of testing other people's lists.

As for the CB-problem, I don't see why they should be so much better at setting up the lock as they run 3/3 and you have full sets, but maybe the presence of Daze/Spell Snare in their deck allows them to stop you from assembling it much more efficiently, which shifts the advantage back to them. This problem is compounded for you as you are vulnerable to CB by having your own curve modelled to support it obviously, meaning a CB actually puts your development on hold for the most part and you only have 2 Vindicates to break out of it.

I think it might be advisable for you, at least if you have access to A.Ruins, to become a EE deck post SB and reduce your reliance on CounterTop if they really are better at getting it to resolve. CB decks in general have a really hard time dealing with recurring EEs because it breaks up the lock at variable casting costs. Instead of trying to be a better stack-control-deck (which is very hard against a deck like Dreadstill that is basically all carddrawing and countermagic, especially post SB) it might be better to try to ruin their ability to play on the board, an area where they don't particularly excel.

DragoFireheart

07-22-2010, 07:59 AM

Hanni, maybe you should run your own Mishra's Factories?

Hanni

07-22-2010, 01:23 PM

The best solutions I have found for this are running your own Mishras and/or Wastelands.

But when I playtested against every other matchup, Mishra's Factories were just bad. I'm not sure that going back to that is worth it, especially at the expense of opening myself up to manabase instabiity.

I'm also not a fan of running Wasteland in my control deck that wants alot of lands in play.

I think it might be advisable for you, at least if you have access to A.Ruins, to become a EE deck post SB and reduce your reliance on CounterTop if they really are better at getting it to resolve.

I was actually considering that, but was unsure because I only run 1 Academy Ruins and they run 4 Wasteland's. That's a pretty solid idea, don't get me wrong. The reason I was hesistant was because a) they run Stifle, and b) if I assemble CounterTop, I'm at a huge advantage.

Hanni, maybe you should run your own Mishra's Factories?

They're bad in every other matchup besides the control mirror, though. There has to be a way to address that with the sideboard, rather than weaken the maindeck.

Honestly, I'm thinking Pithing Needle is my best option. 1 Needle shuts down all 4 Mishra's Factories, and it has the ability to shut down other randomness in control mirrors, like Academy Ruins and/or EE, opposing Top's (if they have theirs but I don't have mine yet), Jace (if they have their's but I don't have mine), etc. Pretty much all of their problem cards happen to be Needle targets; using one 1cc permanent to shut down all copies of the card seems huge.

I need to do alot of playtesting, which is going to be the only way to determine my best options.

(Dreadstill seems like it's the absolute worst mirror match for me out of all the other possible control mirrors, which is probably a good thing, since its the least popular one right now.)

Mon,Goblin Chief

07-22-2010, 02:24 PM

The problem with Needle is that you said that they were far better at setting up Counter-Top. If so, Needle is only useful before they've gotten to that point and you still don't have the ability to break out of the lock with anything but Vindicate. A card that is that conditional doesn't seem like a way to turn a matchup that you have described as "very bad".

I think with the incredibly high basic/Fetch count your deck has, you might want to try out SBing B2B instead. Takes care of the Mishras and severely limits the amount of mana they have available to abuse CB-Top, not to mention that as a 3 it is significantly more likely to resolve through CB than Needle is. It would also be a sick SB-card against Landstill and Lands - actually against most Loam-decks in general. I might try SBing B2Bs and EEs next time you test against Dreadstill (even without the Ruins-lock, which doesn't work under B2B, a flexible answer to CB that also happens to get rid of 'Naugths if necessary seems good here).
The only problem with B2B is that it can be REBed giving them outs. If you were running red, Blood Moon would probably work even better.

nexus blue

07-23-2010, 10:45 AM

Okay, I was all set to abandon this for CounterTop Thopter, then had a change of heart because this deck seems like it has so much potential. Hanni, I know you've mentioned a lack of tournament results with your build, so I figured I'd post mine here. Be forewarned, this is only U/W with a limited sideboard, mainly due to a lack of card options. I would definitely run Black w/Vindicates if I could. As you read the tournament report and decklist, keep in mind that while I love Legacy, this is only my third tournament, all three using new, different decks (for me), and that while I've played Magic sine 1995, I stopped in 1999 and just started again about 4 months ago.

Lands

4 Flooded Strand
10 Island
8 Plains
1 Kor Haven

Artifacts

4 Sensei's Divining Top

Spells

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
1 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Disenchant
4 Counterbalance

Planeswalkers

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard

4 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
1 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Propaganda

It ended up being a 5-round tourney to get to the Top 8; there were 36 people or so. This version went 2-2-1, though one loss would have been a draw if not for time. I made several play errors, probably because I chose to play this cold. However, it was a complete blast to play, apart from being slow, and I'm eager to fine tune the U/W version and the sideboard. Next time I play will be about two or three weeks from now.

Match ups:
Round One: vs. Affinity; (Draw): I won the first game on the draw with a timely WofG and subsequent board control. He won the second game quickly, despite my addition of PtE. Third game was a won position on my end with an Active Jace and Elspeth, but with only two of the five turns after regular time expired, I couldn't convert and we drew. 0-0-1

Round Two: vs. Mono White Stax; (Loss): I lost the first game to double Smokestack - I had a Jace up to 11 but had to sac it to Stack. I had O-ringed his first stack, and he then O-ringed my O-ring, so I was desperately searching for my last one to put the game into a draw. Sadly, he landed the second Stack and it was game over. Second game I had a won position,with an active Jace and good board control, but again, went over the time limit and in the final sudden death turns couldn't convert, so I ended up taking a loss instead of the draw. 0-1-1

Round Three: vs. Lands; (Loss): I lost the first game to a Burning Wish into some G/B Wurm card that made a shitton of 1/1's. I had an active Elspeth that had already made all my stuff indestrucible, but had no counters or board sweepers, even with a SDT; once my opponent cast the Wurm card, then recast it from his GY (I forget the name of the mechanic), my 5 1/1's couldn't beat the 19 1/1's he threw my way. I won the second game with Relic of Progenitus and Pithing Needle shutting down his EE. Third game he landed a Countryside Crusher; I hadn't seen any creatures in the match thus far, so only had my StP and WofG in the main. I couldn't pull one and he won this one in five or six turns. 0-2-1

Round Four: BYE. Lame, but I grabbed dinner. 1-2-1

Round Five: vs. U/B/G something or other; (Win): I won the first game, but it took 35 minutes to do so. He'd land a Goyf and a Tombstalker and I'd have answers. He'd use Volrath's Stronghold and I'd Predict it away. However, I couldn't find a damn Planeswalker for the first eight turns or so. Second game ended in overtime with no winner, though I was in control. 2-2-1

I was very pleased with how everything ran, minus how slow it sometimes felt. There were only a few occasions where I couldn't find an answer to something; unfortunately, those occasions cost me matches. I believe this U/W version would benefit from a Vedalken Shackles and EE and more Pithing Needles in the SB. My EE arrived in the mail the day after the tourney; by next tourney I should have more of each and maybe more Meddling Mage (who did great coming into the SB, as he was never killed, only o-ringed). I would also run Tundras if I had the money to buy them, and I only ran into mana trouble in one game and only for an extra turn; however, there's something very satisfying about letting an opponent's Wasteland sit there. Kor Haven kicked ass when I had it out - definitely a 1-of if not two - it was awesome having a permanent answer to a problem creature. Lastly, I'd also use Moat if I had one, but that'll be a while.

If I have any other thoughts or observations I'll post them; hope this helps with the overall post/deck idea. I know it isn't the "ideal" build, but just trying to work with what I have. My own noob play mistakes definitely attributed to at least one of the losses - should have played faster with a better eye on the clock.

Cheers.

nedleeds

07-26-2010, 10:41 AM

If you aren't running Factories then you should be running Moat. Elspeth to me seems like a failure in this particular deck. I'd rather just run 4 Jace. You can pitch extras to Force, smash other Jaces' by playing yours. Are you chumping with Elspeth? Moat is the biggest chump block ever. Saying that Grip takes out Moat is a silly reason for not playing it, side out your Tops and CB's then :) You have so many targets and they only have so many Grips, and Qasali should never hit the board if you have CounterTop out. More Vindicates can also help you in game 2 or 3. You can default the top of your library to the 3cc Vindicate.

I play a Countertop less U/W/b control deck which is strong in control on control but weaker vs. the weenie / aggro strategy.

// Counters
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
// Search
3 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
// Disrupt Defend
1 Moat
1 The Abyss
1 Innocent Blood
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
// Win
1 Elixir of Vitality
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Lands
1 Academy Ruins
2 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Curfew
SB: 1 Abolish
SB: 1 Skeletal Scrying
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Runed Halo
3 other hateful cards TBD
SB: 2 Energy Flux
SB: 2 Extirpate

Edit: " Lastly, I'd also use Moat if I had one, but that'll be a while." sorry didn't read until the end ;)

heroicraptor

07-26-2010, 12:08 PM

I play a Countertop less U/W/b control deck which is strong in control on control but weaker vs. the weenie / aggro strategy.

That's because Elspeth takes a shit on aggro's face.

nexus blue

07-26-2010, 08:41 PM

Elspeth to me seems like a failure in this particular deck. I'd rather just run 4 Jace. You can pitch extras to Force, smash other Jaces' by playing yours. Are you chumping with Elspeth?

In the one tourney I've played with that U/W build, I won with both Elspeth or Jace 2.0, or a combination of the two. Elspeth provided chump blockers, but she also provided a solid little army several times. Not pulling out more wins with her had more to do with my lack of piloting experience, both overall in Legacy and with this build, plus a suboptimal sideboard (of course I say this IMHO). I might be able to get in another tournament sooner than I thought; if I do I'll be sure to post more results/matchups, as my sideboard will be more well-rounded and I'll have a better handle on how to approach some of the issues/builds I faced.
On another note, I can still see the Vindicates kicking serious ass, but I've read through that Ultimate Walker thread, where Hanni's decklist seems to first show up, and I can see the desire to run red in place of black. Anyways, lacking the proper fetches/duals to do either, not to mention some of the cards that make it worthwhile to run another color, any serious testing on my part will have to wait.
BTW, silly as it might seem, Disenchant was played with good results in every single matchup I had. I know it and O-Ring could be replaced with some Vindicates, but it definitely came in handy.
Has anyone else been having some tournament success with this? It seems like a lurking monster with the right cards/pilot.

MWest52117

07-26-2010, 09:28 PM

I just thought I'd post a sample list in here for a UWr variant of CounterTop Walker, seeing as the red splash has occasionally been thrown out there but a list has never really had a list to put to it. I've done fairly well with it at my small local events, making top 4 in both events that I've played it at so far after having CounterTop Thopter crash and burn on me once.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant

Current Sideboard:

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Firespout
2 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Moon
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 empty slot (thinking about 4th Firespout, 3rd Relic, 3rd Blood Moon, 1st Crypt)

The Oblivion Rings in this list generally perform the role that Hanni's Vindicates do in the UWb list, being in there as a somewhat necessary evil to deal with Emrakuls as I don't run the Wraths that Hanni does in his list. I haven't had a chance to thoroughly test this list yet but its been pretty solid so far against most decks that I have run it against. Ajani is a pretty solid bomb against control, acting like a Rishadan Port/Maze of Ith while ticking upward to its ultimate or even doing the Helix+Fog thing against aggro decks. The Rishadan Port aspect is becoming more and more effective as people move towards more basics in their deck, allowing you to cut them off from splashes much more easily than with the heavy dual manabases.

Goblins has been a bit of a weak matchup but the list I'm testing against is pretty much the worst possible variant against this particular deck (RG with Grips postboard plus the full manadenial suite of Mono Red Goblins). Game 1 is pretty hard short of sticking a fast Shackles with backup against Ringleader or hoping Goblins keeps a slow hand that allows you to set up some sort of defense before they get going. I've thought about moving some of the Firespouts to the MD perhaps cutting the O-rings to try and solve some of that matchup's problems.

Another thing people might ask about is why I'm running Lightning Bolts in the SB over Paths. For the most part, Paths are fine against Zoo and New Horizons, and other decks using tons of fatties, but those slots are more for replacing weak cards against the Vial Aggro matchups and both Goblins and Merfolk can use the extra mana Path provides; with this deck's game going so long typically, the extra mana they get will allow them to use their manadenial or manlands to the full while still applying pressure even without Vial. And they work effectively enough against Zoo plus random Bobs, Nighthawks, Factories, or Mutavaults that I don't really miss Paths.

The Crucible in the SB is for the mirror matches where keeping up the Ruins/EE lock often is your path to victory unless you lock your opponent out with a fast CB. I also bring it in against Lands just to allow me to keep up my land drops against them and keep another 3 in the deck for CB. The Blood Moons were suggested by Mon earlier in the thread and I have to say I enjoy seeing them every time I board them in against anything with a really sketchy manabase, or Lands. The Needles should be pretty obvious. I've been in between Relic and Crypts for this deck but I'm leaning towards Relic at the moment despite having Ruins for the Crypt lock against Dredge and Loam decks.

The Zoo matchup should be just fine; infinite removal (especially postboard) plus CounterTop and being nearly invulnerable to Price of Progress should make this matchup fairly good. I don't think this list is anywhere near an optimal list yet, but that's why I'm putting it up here, for constructive criticism.

@nexus blue: Agreed, when I have won with this deck its typically been by Jace 2.0 or Elspeth coming down. Ajani in the red splash version I run has actually won me a few games by going one-sided Geddon on people's faces. And Shackles is quite the backbreaker against certain decks while often being a good wincon in its own right. Killing people with their own Goyfs or Factories is fun...especially when Elspeth arrives to throw them into the air :P

nedleeds

07-27-2010, 09:59 AM

That's because Elspeth takes a shit on aggro's face.

Sounds good. So on turn four you have double white and you tap out for ... Elspeth. You make a 1/1 non-flyer. Talk to me about the number of situations where it would be better to drop Moat vs. aggro or Elspeth and your taint stomping 1/1 man?

- Merfolk, Moat
- Goblins, Moat
- U/g/w control, Moat
- Zoo, Moat ... unless they are sandbagging / top decking a pridemage ... which seems far less likely than them having removal for a 1/1 naked man

nexus blue

07-27-2010, 11:07 AM

Well ideally the deck is dropping either an EE a few turns sooner or a WofG/Firespout to clear before one of the Planeswalkers. a big board sweeper followed up by a 'walker can be pretty gnarly. Plus, supposing the Zoo player comes back with more, the SB is supposed to simply add lots more removal. But in the one tourney I played with my build I didn't face Zoo, so for me it's only in theory. On the other hand, Hanni has done a shitload of MWS testing and apparently does well against Zoo.

heroicraptor

07-27-2010, 01:32 PM

Sounds good. So on turn four you have double white and you tap out for ... Elspeth. You make a 1/1 non-flyer.

Oh please. You've gotta be trollin'. You waste their shit with removal, and drop Elspeth on a favorable/empty board, and they can't come back from the CA. Dropping Elspeth on turn 4 is only good against shitty.dec.

nedleeds

07-27-2010, 02:56 PM

Oh please. You've gotta be trollin'. You waste their shit with removal, and drop Elspeth on a favorable/empty board, and they can't come back from the CA. Dropping Elspeth on turn 4 is only good against shitty.dec.

Why is that better than dropping Jace? If it's due to poorness that's fine. Moat is better in that spot then Elspeth, you are better off with moar Jace for the facts I stated above.

MWest52117

07-27-2010, 05:43 PM

Is Moat really better in that spot in this deck?? The Elspeth slots are as much win conditions as they are weapons against aggro decks. Moat is NOT a way to win the game, its a way to make you not lose the game, barring the opponent having a way to deal with it like Pridemage, or go over it like Coralhelm Commander, Siege-Gang Commander, burn to the dome, Elspeth pumps, etc. Moat is fine game 1 when most people can't deal with it or only have 2 bounce spells or 4 Pridemages; after board against any deck that lost to it game 1, you're going to see them keep counters/bounce/Grips/Pridemages in hand to deal with it. You'd note that half these decks don't really care about CB all that much and can afford to hold their solutions to enchantments to deal with the Moat. And I hear Moat with Shackles as Hanni and I have been using is a pretty bad nonbo unless they're playing flying dudes that make Moat irrelevant regardless.

Another reason I'm against Moat in this deck is to do with the fact that you run 1 without the 4 Enlightened Tutors to dig the damn thing up in the first place. All the mana and cards you're going to be using to dig for a 1 of out that isn't even an unbreakable out could be used much more productively to play removal/counters or dig for more of it with Predict to protect your life total, especially with the removal suites these decks run. CounterTop Thopter gets away with it because its main wincon also happens to gain them life to put them out of direct damage range from Zoo or Goblins and they run a virtual 5 Moats, not 1.

As for Elspeth vs more Jaces - Elspeth is actually the fastest wincon in this deck, especially in versions that run Shackles that allow them to work in tandem to really dispatch opponents quickly. If an opponent really wants to stall out against Jace they can, since the wincon is not an insta-win. Their hand becomes their library and they still have a few turns to stall out for a 1-0 win or a 1-1 draw where an Elspeth would be a 1-1 draw or a 2-1 win in match results.

Lord_Cyrus

07-28-2010, 11:43 AM

Another reason I'm against Moat in this deck is to do with the fact that you run 1 without the 4 Enlightened Tutors to dig the damn thing up in the first place. All the mana and cards you're going to be using to dig for a 1 of out that isn't even an unbreakable out could be used much more productively to play removal/counters or dig for more of it with Predict to protect your life total, especially with the removal suites these decks run. CounterTop Thopter gets away with it because its main wincon also happens to gain them life to put them out of direct damage range from Zoo or Goblins and they run a virtual 5 Moats, not 1.

As for Elspeth vs more Jaces - Elspeth is actually the fastest wincon in this deck, especially in versions that run Shackles that allow them to work in tandem to really dispatch opponents quickly. If an opponent really wants to stall out against Jace they can, since the wincon is not an insta-win. Their hand becomes their library and they still have a few turns to stall out for a 1-0 win or a 1-1 draw where an Elspeth would be a 1-1 draw or a 2-1 win in match results.

This. If you're going to play Moat, which is terrible in multiples, you might as well play E. Tutor. If you play E. Tutor, you might as well play Thopters. I believe that hybridization could potentially make the deck stronger in certain matchups, but it also makes it a different deck. Pushing Moat here is just silly. Go ahead and make another thread if you want to attack that angle.

After playing with Elspeth countless times, I just can't understand the criticism. In a deck that packs multiple board sweepers, she is just insane. Sure, the first 1/1 you make isn't really a full card worth of value. But how much is it worth when you have 2 tokens? 4? How much is it worth to turn any of those into a viable Finisher, all while never losing Loyalty counters? It doesn't take much work to turn Elspeth into a game-winner. And while Jace might be stronger in abstract, as MWest points out under real time contraints at an actual tournament, you'd often rather have the faster win. Especially in a deck like this that can just sit pretty for the first 10 turns.

nexus blue

07-28-2010, 01:30 PM

If you're going to play Moat, which is terrible in multiples, you might as well play E. Tutor. If you play E. Tutor, you might as well play Thopters. I believe that hybridization could potentially make the deck stronger in certain matchups, but it also makes it a different deck.

I actually tried to make this work; I found this original thread and was convinced it was gonna be awesome. But I had just gotten ahold of some E. Tutors and was convinced that this deck could run similar to a Thopter deck by using the E. Tutors for a toolbox. It didn't work - too much going on. Last page I told this thread good luck and that I was just gonna stick with Thopters, but at the last minute I changed my mind and ran my U/W version of Hanni's build. I had no complaints as to the completeness of it.

I said earlier that I would run Moat if I had the money, but the more I've tested with it and/or Humility on MWS, the less I want it, unless I'm playing a WofG and following up with it. And in that situation I'd rather drop an Elspeth after the Wrath. Moat is an awesome card, but this deck is meant to counter most things and use mass/spot removal to pick off what you don't.

@ MWest: I am still testing with the Vedalken Shackles, and while I'm using only one copy, getting it is just good times.

Lastly, as I've previously stated, I can't run a U/W/b version right now which means I'm assed out on Vindicates. I've been using a few O-rings and a few Disenchants with some success, but I'm wondering if anyone has any other suggestions. The O-rings are nice for a 3cc and the Disenchants have been awesome given the prevelance of artifacts and enchantments in the format. However, I know using those leaves out the ability to destroy/remove problem lands, but truthfully I haven't needed to worry about that so far - the few manlands I've had to fight with have been stalled by Elspeth's soldiers or Sworded. Anyways, just wondering if I'm missing out on a colorless/U/W card that does something similar to Vindicate/O-ring/Disenchant.

nexus blue

08-01-2010, 03:32 PM

So not much input recently on this, which seems surprising given it's potential. I wasn't able to make it to Columbus, but a good friend of mine did and got beat by a variant of this deck in the third round.
Hanni, I would have thought you'd have a lot to say on the recent posts, given that it's your "baby". I'm hoping that people running something other than your precise build hasn't turned you off the thread. Have you been able to test your original version in a live tournament at all?

god_campbell

08-01-2010, 03:43 PM

I was able to take Hanni's build to a legacy 2 weeks ago, unforunatley, a combo of poor play and bad matchups did not equal a top 8... I was always apprahensive of the countertop engine only because you can get some bad luck on flips, and that is what happened to me. PRedict was sexy though so def will play with it again. to get a better feel of the deck.

MWest52117

08-05-2010, 07:22 PM

@nexus blue: Was it one of the people playing the CounterTop deck style that ended up placing 2nd at the GP? Some of the lists that were floating around did have Predict in them (I think Matt Sperling's list that went 9-0 day 1 had some of them).

To add some more experiences from playing the deck at a few small local tournaments:

1. Ajani Vengeant can be very backbreaking in live play - Ajani was originally a throw in for me since I was short an Elspeth. Now I think that it pulls more than its own weight in the deck. It happens to be extremely good against 43 Lands in the list I run with EE's to get rid of Mox Diamonds; as you can shut down either the manland beats wincon or lock them out of Academy Ruins recursion if they use the land once.

2. The threat diversity offered by the varying win packages of Jace/Elspeth/Ajani/Shackles/other wincons being played allows the deck to play through Pithing Needles effectively. A lot of sideboards were or still will be packing Needles against either CB Thopters or 43 Lands or stuff like Aeon Bridge that would be splash damage against us and could very easily render a deck dependent on Jace alone as a wincon completely powerless. Plus it allows you to play against more diverse situations; I can't count the number of games I've won because of the combined advantage of having two different Walkers down at once. If you've ever played something like the Planeswalker decks or Super Friends from t2 you'll know the feeling.

I'm interested too in hearing about more about Hanni's testing of his baby, and the UWb version that he runs.

nexus blue

08-05-2010, 08:16 PM

No, the 2nd place deck at GP: Columbus was a more traditional Countertop build that used 'Goyfs and Vendillion Clique.
As far as having Ajani Vengeant, I'd totally have one in my deck if it could support the mana; unfortuanetly I don't have the necessary fetchlands/dual lands to add a red splash. Having additional wincons seems rather crucial; having the shackles MD has been great.
I'll get to play my version next week; I'll be sure to post another report on here the following day.
Hanni, where are you?

The Treefolk Master

09-12-2010, 02:41 PM

I think you're not exploiting the black splash at its full potential.Vindicate is incredible, but why not run extirpates and plagues? I'd like to hear opinions about this sideboard:

3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Perish

Why not run EE maindeck (the previos sideboard assumes explosives are in the main)?

Tortured Existence

09-28-2010, 07:40 PM

http://i51.tinypic.com/2zxttkw.jpg .

Antonius

10-15-2010, 06:18 PM

^^

Dude, that list looks really, really bad. No offense. I mean, your curve is completely off for CB. You have four colors. You have like seven 4cc with no real acceleration and only 23 lands. You only have 2 CBs. You're going to get destroyed by wasteland.

Anyways, after reading through this thread, I have to ask why everyone trends towards black as their third color. As a CB deck, you need to streamline your curve, run some effective 3cc spells and load up on 2cc. I see the allure of black for its 2cc removal (smother is nice!) but Red gives you Firespout. And if you want 2cc removal, white has decent options with Journey to Nowhere, Lightning Helix and Reprisal--they each have their limitations, I know, but as 2-ofs to supplement swords, they're not bad.

Also, I think you should set your 4cc to a max of 4 slots. 2 Jace/2 Elspeth. Spout instead of Wrath. This way you'll have a perfect curve: 12: 1cc; 12: 2cc; 6: 3cc; 4: 4cc; 4: 5cc; 22 lands.

The Treefolk Master

10-21-2010, 02:15 PM

I think it depends on the metagame. Maybe, people turn to to black splash because there is not so much aggro in their metas (Firespout > aggro decks) or just because of a personal preference.

Teown

10-25-2010, 05:18 AM

Hi all! i play landstill 2 years ago, split 2 weeks ago to thopters and not really like it because e.tutors do hard dissadventage if a krosan/qasali/counter apears, then I look control decks and countertop superfriends looks nice in my meta, but i have some doubts about sb and 1 slot on md, this is my current list:

//Lands:
4 plains
6 island
1 mountain
4 flooded strand
2 scalding tarn
1 volcanic island
3 tundra
1 academy ruins

//Walkers:
2 Jace, TMS
2 Elspeth 1.0
1 Ajani vengeant (backbreaker!)

//Removal, board control:
3 Engineered explosives
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Oblivion ring
1 Vedalken shackles

//Card adventage:
4 Brainstorm
4 sensei's divining top
4 predict

//Permission:
4 Force of will
3 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance

SB:
2 enlightened tutor
1 blood moon
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 tormod's crypt
1 ethersworn canonist
1 crucible of worlds
2 pithing neddle
3 firespout

As you can see, sb have 3 free slots, my meta have overflow of survival-vine decks, that is hard matchup I think for this deck, because firespout hit the vines when they already hit me and bringme in low lifes or kill me, I want this 3 empty slots with nice slots vs vines and agro, but I not find the solution, thinked about finks, PtE, WoG/DoJ, but I'm not really sure about any of those, creatures will be nice cause seing the MD, opponents will put out StP or other creature-removal and then hit his face but I'm not sure about finks will stop vines-agro decks easy.
My other doubt is about 4rt pedict, I'm really happy about predicts, but I think that can be other cards as another shackles or somthing awsome.
Finally I say that Ajani is MVP, kill opponents walkers, removal/finisher + life gain and ultimate is game conceede in many times, I'm thinking about 2nd ajani but in other hand I see too many walkers if 2nd Ajani is included.

Thanks for all and sorry if my english is not good :(

DragoFireheart

11-11-2010, 01:08 PM

This deck is not going to be able to cut it in a Veggie-filled meta. Wait for storm combo decks to push out the veggies then play this to fight storm.

The Treefolk Master

11-11-2010, 03:03 PM

This deck is not going to be able to cut it in a Veggie-filled meta. Wait for storm combo decks to push out the veggies then play this to fight storm.

He's probably right, you can't play this in a meta infested with survival without damaging your other match ups.

Hanni

12-18-2010, 01:49 PM

Well, I've been awol for a long time. It's unfortunate that this deck has had 0 interest since then. Anyway, after looking at the way I innovated the deck in the past, and looking at the current metagame, there are a few changes I would make. The biggest change would be cutting Wrath of God out completely. I used to absolutely love this card, and I've always been stubborn about cutting it, but it just has so much going against it anymore. Specifically against Vengevival, WoG does nothing to Vengevines. Even still, it's horrible against Merfolk (one of my worst matchups), it's slow against Zoo, and it's strong against matchups that are already very strong (Bant w/ out NOProg).

Even if Survival (or Vengevine) does get banned, I still think evolving the deck to cut WoG makes sense. Honestly, the way the deck performs, it really doesn't want the opponent to have multiple creatures in play at a time. Whether that be through spot removal, countermagic, or whatever, the opponent will rarely have 3+ creatures in play at once, and if they do, I'm likely dead regardless if I can cast WoG. Forcing the opponent to overcommit with Elspeth and Kor Haven is nice, but controlling the aggro in play through Vedlaken Shackles and CounterTop just seems more efficient.

Cutting WoG also decreases my dependance on double white, allowing me to further strengthen the focus on double blue (through actual manabase construction, the way I fetch lands during actual gameplay, etc).

I also like how cutting WoG enables the opportunity to tighten the curve for Counterbalance even further.

Now, I'm not sure that the evolved deck would necessarily be a strong metagame force right now, since I have no playtesting data whatsoever, but I still believe the deck is very strong. It has the ability to beat any deck with correct play, because it has answers between maindeck and sideboard for literally everything, and the metagame is always shifting (meaning there is always opportunities for control to make a ressurgence).

Here's the current version:

U/W/b WalkerTop

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
5 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [AP] Vindicate
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [FNM] Duress
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate

I love how the 2 Vedalken Shackles feel like Planeswalker's #5 and #6. They are an amazing anti aggro replacement for Wrath of God that simply work much better in this deck for numerous reasons.

The addition of Path to Exile is in response to Vengevine (before, the black removal package was an answer to NOProg and Reanimator/Iona). However, they are amazing against most of the field, regardless of Vengevines.

Extirpate in the sideboard is a direct response to Vengevival, while being useful against Dredge.

I'm also interested in testing -1 Plains, -2 Elspeth, +1 Island, +2 Jace. I'm still confident in the 2/2 split for various reasons, but completely removing WW from the deck while upping my blue spell count to 23 does sound attractive.

The Treefolk Master

12-18-2010, 06:38 PM

I tried 4 Jace in a similar walker control deck, but with no counterbalance, and thought it was better than running Elspeth.

To strengthen the merfolk match up I suggest Peacekeeper, which completely shuts them down, and also helps vs. Vengevival/Random Aggro Decks.

If survival does get banned, I think the red splash will be better than the black splash, as Merfolk/Goblins/Zoo will likely increase in popularity again.

Nice to see you back in the thread Hanni

Hanni

12-18-2010, 07:08 PM

I tried 4 Jace in a similar walker control deck, but with no counterbalance, and thought it was better than running Elspeth.

I tested both configurations a while back, and I found the 2/2 split to be better for a number of reasons.

1) You can only play 1 Jace at a time, but you can have Elspeth and Jace in play at the same time.
2) The split diversifies wincons against random jank like Pithing Needle and Extirpate.
3) Elspeth is better against aggro in most situations I encounter.
4) Elspeth is better against opposing Jace's in the mirror.

There's more that I cannot think of right now, but I like Elspeth. I only mentioned wanting to test 4 Jace because of the new changes (I like to explore all avenues).

To strengthen the merfolk match up I suggest Peacekeeper, which completely shuts them down, and also helps vs. Vengevival/Random Aggro Decks.

How popular is the Merfolk matchup these days? I've significantly strengthed the maindeck matchup against Merfolk already. But if it's still popular, I could board Peackeeper's.

I pretty much win most random aggro matchups. As far as Vengevival is concerned, how many lists are still running without either creature removal or the alt Ooze win con?

If survival does get banned, I think the red splash will be better than the black splash, as Merfolk/Goblins/Zoo will likely increase in popularity again.

That's may be true, although I'm still partial to the black splash.

Nice to see you back in the thread Hanni

Thanks =]

EDIT: I just encountered a specific situation on MWS that I can use to illustrate the power of the 2/2 split of Elspeth/Jace. I was playing against UGwr Supreme Blue, and he had 2 Rhox War Monk's in play and had me down to 10. I had a Top in play, and my only relevant answer on the top was Elspeth, which I dropped, making a 1/1 token and ramping to 5. On the next turn, he swung into my 1/1 and my Elspeth (down to 2 counters). Next turn, I rip a Path, hit one of the Rhox's, and make another 1/1. At this point, we go back and forth for about 6 or so turns with him swinging into my 1/1. Finally, I rip a Jace, and after a few turns of Brainstorm'ing with him, I find an answer to the 3/4 (Vindicate I think). From there, I proceed to win.

(I ended up going 2-0 against him btw).

If Elspeth had been Jace in that situation, I would have been fucked.

The Treefolk Master

12-24-2010, 01:22 PM

Well, I think I'll leave the list I'm currently testing:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles

Note that this is desinged for the following metagame (ignore the survival decks), aka 03479438574975045 aggro decks:

Metagame
Zoo: 5
Goblins: 5
Merfolks: 4
Eva Green: 4
Dredge: 3
WW: 3
Mono Red Burn: 3
Landstill: 2
Pro Bant: 2
UW Control: 2
Mono Black Aggro: 2
Sneak Attack: 2
UW Fish: 2
Mono Green Destroyland: 1
Solidarity: 1
Infect: 1
Chaimera: 1
Painter: 1
Survival WG: 1
Aggro Loam: 1
Canadian ********: 1
TPS: 1
Belcher: 1
Dark Depths: 1
BW Aggro: 1
Dark Horizons: 1
BG Control: 1
Pox: 1
Mono Green Aggro: 1
Enchantress: 1
Survival UGw: 2
Survival GB: 1
Survival UG: 1

I was one of the guys running Landstill. Naturally, I run into the other landstill player in round 2...

hyc8028

12-27-2010, 03:01 AM

Went to 14 man tourney today. I finished the day with 1-2-2. My record would have been 3-1-1 if I didn't make some huge misplay. I absolutely love this deck. Over half of the meta was Goblin and Merfolk.

Spell: 37
4x Brainstorm
4x Predict
4x Sword to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Counterspell
2x Path to Exile
2x Firespout
4x Sensei’s Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
2x Elspeth the Knight Errant
2x Jace the Mind Sculptor

Land: 23
4x Flooded Strand
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
1x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tundra
5x Island
2x Plain
1x Academy Ruin
1x Kor Haven

SB: 15
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Firespout
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Path to Exile
2x Pithing Needle
2x Engineered Explosive
2x Vendillion Clique

RD 1 GB Survival: 2-1
GM 1 He has no survival and I assemble quick countertop lock. Turn 5 JTMs and he scoops.
GM 2 Survival on turn 3 that I have no answer. He attack for 12 on turn 4 and I scoop.
GM 3 Went on about 40 mins. Pithing Needle on SOTF and he cast goyf on turn 2. I assemble early countertop lock again and manage to dig up 2 relic. He was forced to krosan grip the needle. I have 2 Relic in play and Firespout in hand and I kept on drawing answer to his threat. At one point, he just tutor up Vengevine every turn and play 4 mana to play it and I kept STP/PTE. He then scoop to Jace Ultimate.

RD 2 RB Goblin: 1-1-1
GM 1 He had turn 1 Lackey met by a STP. He had no threat on turn 2 and I play top. I assemble countertop on turn 3 and won on the back of Jace.
GM 2 Turn 1 needle on JTMS and he just keep porting my 2 land and land vial. Couldn't find my Firespout in time. I manage to get elspeth out and bought couple turn. I then die to Siege gang.
GM 3 The round only has 3 min left, so my hand was top, PTE, STP, Firespout, 3 land. I kill everything I see and time was up.

RD 3 UB Merfolk: 0-2
GM 1 Giant misplay on game 1. I kept on answering his threat, but I fetch Tundra instead of plain. He cut off my white and I was holding 2 STP and PTE. He finished me with Mutavaults.
GM 2 It is about the same. I answer some threat. Firespout once. He has a lvl 4 corehelm and I try to dig for removal. I get elspeth out to buy some time. He topdecked a mutavault and I lose.

RD 4 RB Goblin: 0-2 (Friend)
This was a friend of mine and we showed each other decklist right before the tourney, so we knew each other deck. I am 0-3 against him now.
GM 1 He has an insane opening. 3 vial on turn 3. Blind flip counterbalance and fail. He vial in lackey that I have no answer for. I lose quickly.
GM 2 Got mana flooded. After brainstorm, top, shuffling my deck twice, all I saw was land.

RD 5 UBR Dreadstill 1-1-1
GM 1 We were both trying to resolve counterbalance and both have answer for each other. Another mistake. I got elspeth to 9 and ultimate. I forgot that he ran stifle. He stifle my Elspeth Ultimate. He beat me down with factory slowly.
GM 2 He tried to turn 3 Standstill, but I played clique in response. He tried to force the clique, but I force back. He was holding a REB but no red source. My clique was racing with his 2 factory. He end up breaking Standstill 2 turn later. Assemble Countertop, drew a PTE and Elspeth. PTE a factory and Clique went all the way.
GM 2 The round only have 5 mins left. I assemble turn 3 Countertop lock that he has no answer for. He manage to resolve a Dreadnought while I tap out, but I have Oblivion Ring waiting. I have both JTMS and Elspeth in play and ramping counter, but time went out.

I feel that I could have won the GM 1 Merfolk and GM 1 Dreadstill if I played correctly.This deck is really powerful. People were holding removal in their hand. They have nowhere to use but on the solider token. The only problem I have is this deck take a long time to finish people that almost all my round went to time if not tie, so I always have to win Gm 1 to ensure to have at least a tie.

There are some cards I am not too impress. I had shackle in my first version. The problem it is too slow against tribal and I got the STP/PTE on the Goyf/Knight. Oblivion Ring was solid, but it is too slow if the whole meta is aggro.

What are your thoughts about Trinket Mage? It is a body. It fetches top, explosive, needle and land. Getting Needle would help shore up against vial and manland. Grabing a land on 3rd turn trinket mage can almost ensure I have my 4th land and land one of the walker.

I love needle in this deck. It answers 2 things that I worry about the most. Manland and vial.

I am going to make these changes:

MD:
-1 Predict
-1 Top
-2 Oblivion Ring
-1 Polluted Delta
-1 Misty Rainforest
-1 Island

+2 Trinket Mage
+1 Needle
+1 Explosive
+1 Scalding Tarn
+1 Arid Mesa
+1 Seat of the Synod

SB:
-1 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Engineered Explosive

SB:
+1 Firespout
+1 Tormod's Crypt

The Treefolk Master

12-27-2010, 07:16 AM

People were holding removal in their hand. They have nowhere to use but on the solider token.

Well, there is nothing better than hearing your opponent go "well, I guess I'll StP your token." Gained you 4 life, woops.

Shackles is slow vs. Merfolk, and the Islandwalk renders it pretty useless. But it can be quite useful vs. Goblins, you can play cat and mouse game with an active shackles, they won't attack fearing a 2 x 1.

If your meta is chokefull of Goblins and Merfolk, add a 3rd Firespout main. It is also useful vs. random aggro decks.

I've never tried Trinket, but I guess it could work. Adam Prosak ran them in his UW countertop deck.

Valtrix

12-27-2010, 12:10 PM

Shackles is slow vs. Merfolk, and the Islandwalk renders it pretty useless. But it can be quite useful vs. Goblins, you can play cat and mouse game with an active shackles, they won't attack fearing a 2 x 1.

Shackles is useful against pretty much any non-combo deck, really. You're running spot removal (swords and maybe paths) as well as firespouts that you can easily live long enough to get shackles online. For merfolk islandwalk is likewise not a huge deal because you have so many answers to it already.

hyc8028

12-27-2010, 12:47 PM

I wasn't expecting so much aggro. It was like everyone I saw was playing the same deck.

My land was constantly harass yesterday with wasteland and port. I didn't think I could have got shackle online in some match if I have them. I ll do more testing on it in next couple days.

Hanni

12-27-2010, 04:21 PM

What are your thoughts about Trinket Mage? It is a body. It fetches top, explosive, needle and land. Getting Needle would help shore up against vial and manland. Grabing a land on 3rd turn trinket mage can almost ensure I have my 4th land and land one of the walker.

Trinket Mage is an option, but I'm not a big fan. 2U for a 2/2 body is mostly irrelevant in today's format, and it also turns on the opponent's otherwise dead spot removal. Having an artifact toolbox isn't a bad idea, especially with Top and EE being amazing cards in the deck, but the deck runs enough redundancy to not really need any tutoring effects. If you want to try Trinket Mage out, you're more than welcome to. For me personally, Trinket Mage is just as cumbersome as Cunning Wish.

Shackles is slow vs. Merfolk, and the Islandwalk renders it pretty useless. But it can be quite useful vs. Goblins, you can play cat and mouse game with an active shackles, they won't attack fearing a 2 x 1.

How does Islandwalk render it useless? You control magic their Lords of Atlantis if they have one in play...

If they have multiples... well, they shouldn't have multiples. If they do have multiples, then you'll use Shackles to steal one of their Lords of Atlantis, until you can kill the other(s).

The Merfolk matchup is the number one reason why I'm running Shackles; Shackles is devastating in that matchup.

Merolk is a slow aggro deck when you compare it to an aggro deck like Zoo, and it's strength comes from the free "tempo" countermagic and its ability to apply pressure every turn (too many threats to answer them all). Vedalken Shackles is a constant source of creature removal, and is vital to winning game 1's against Merfolk. Also, since Vedalken Shackles is an artifact and not an instant/sorcery, it can be cast through Cursecatchers.

Shackles is useful against pretty much any non-combo deck, really. You're running spot removal (swords and maybe paths) as well as firespouts that you can easily live long enough to get shackles online. For merfolk islandwalk is likewise not a huge deal because you have so many answers to it already.

QFT. The deck uses its spot removal to handle early threats until Shackles gets online, and once Shackles is online, it becomes a constant source of creature removal. It has directly replaced Wrath of God in my deck as my card advantage removal spell of choice.

My land was constantly harass yesterday with wasteland and port. I didn't think I could have got shackle online in some match if I have them. I ll do more testing on it in next couple days.

If you play a manabase similar to mine, Wasteland should be a non-issue. Even the combination of Wasteland/Port is relatively easy to play through. My manabase is far more robust and stable than other control decks like Landstill (especially 4c versions), which is one of the major strengths of this deck. I think you either fetched poorly, had bad draws, or got extremely unlucky, if Wasteland/Port was causing you problems all day. My most recent list has 7 fetches that can grab basic Island, and 5 basic Islands; Shackles only costs 3 mana to put into play...

Valtrix

12-27-2010, 05:19 PM

Trinket Mage is an option, but I'm not a big fan. 2U for a 2/2 body is mostly irrelevant in today's format, and it also turns on the opponent's otherwise dead spot removal.

This really only applies to game 1, because for sideboarding your opponent gets to bring out "dead" cards for cards that actually matter in the matchup. In some respects I like the idea of no creatures. However, in practice I've actually found it very useful to have a small number of creatures (usually goyf,though I realize this deck doesn't run him) because then you put your opponent in a really awkward situation where they need to be able to deal with too many different types of threats. That said, trinket mage is not the type of creature where this strategy really applies to, as he isn't really very fearsome.

How does Islandwalk render it useless? You control magic their Lords of Atlantis if they have one in play...

Lord of Atlantis affects all merfolk in play, regardless of their controller. So even if you steal the lord their guys can still islandwalk through you, with their +1/+1 bonus too.

QFT. The deck uses its spot removal to handle early threats until Shackles gets online, and once Shackles is online, it becomes a constant source of creature removal. It has directly replaced Wrath of God in my deck as my card advantage removal spell of choice.

Shackles is indeed much better than wrath in my opinion for the constant source of creature removal. Additionally it virtually augments your win-cons if you play it on an empty board and steal their only creature, and is in general much more potent versus any type of control/aggro-control.

hyc8028

12-27-2010, 05:44 PM

After reading everyone opinion, I am still going to try out the Trinket Mage. Having a tutor for needle and explosive is good thing. Cunning Wish is different because you have to devote slots in SB. However, I am going to move the Firespouts to the board and MD 2x Shackle for the time being to see how they hold up. Shackle can get everything (manland too) except Lord of Altantis. It also make my opponent commit more on the board. All my opponents expected that I run Firespout as soon as they see Volcanic Island and they started playing around it. Thanks you everyone for the quick feedback! Props to Hanni for creating this deck.

My SB now is probably going to be this:
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
3x Firespout
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Path to Exile
2x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosive
2x Vendillion Clique

Hanni

12-27-2010, 06:01 PM

Lord of Atlantis affects all merfolk in play, regardless of their controller. So even if you steal the lord their guys can still islandwalk through you, with their +1/+1 bonus too.

Hmm. In all fairness, I've only run into this situation a couple of times because I make LoA my priority target number one w/ spot removal (and the Shackles are a fairly recent addition), but my opponent's must have been idiots to let me block with the LoA I stole from them... and me being an idiot for not reading the damn card. Lulz all around.

Mana Drain

12-28-2010, 12:27 AM

Has Brittle Effigy been considered in the Trinket package? It's slow as balls (duh), but this deck intends on surviving to the lategame. A tutorable, non-restrictive removal option for a late-game Trinket sounds viable. Also, while probably irrelevant, it does stop a non-haste Emrakul from SnT and an Iona on white from Reanimator. Worth a try if you're going with the Trinket Mage package.

GGoober

12-28-2010, 02:46 AM

Rather run Executioner's Capsule which can recur with Academy Ruins. Capsule should also be able to deal with Iona since they are primarily naming white against the deck, and is in every way more cost efficient and recurrable :)

hyc8028

01-02-2011, 11:17 PM

I did a lot of testing against Goblin and Landstill last couple days. I was wrong about shackle. It is so good against everything except combo. It was a house against Goblin. Steal a Warchief to chump something. It make my opponent overextend into my Firespout. Shackle make vial less effective and make combat step more complicated. Against Landstill, I was able to prevent Factory beat down and won with Jace. My 2 shackle will never leave my MD now. It is THAT good.

melie

01-11-2011, 06:03 AM

I really really like this deck. I've been playing Landstill for over 5 years now and always liked the idea of BalanceTop in the deck.
I've tested a little the last couple of days and this deck really has game against everything in the format. Didn't make any changes except that I did swap out the 2 Path to Exiles with the EE's from the sb. EE is to good in almost every matchup imho. I'm also not as sold on Predict as most of you guys seem to be. Also, I still play with 2 WoG out of the side instead of the full four PtE.
I'll post some testing results when I have more data.

The Treefolk Master

01-11-2011, 09:57 AM

I won a local Legacy tournament with a straight UW version of this deck. Here is the list (bizarre cards explanations later):

8 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Vedalken Shackles

SB:

4 Chill
1 Energy Flux
1 Serenity
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Day of Judgement
1 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile
2 Submerge
3 Leyline of Sanctity

The Chills were in there because, before the tournament, I saw a whole lot of goblins/sligh/burn variants, so I decided to include them. In the end, there weren't so many of them, as everyone seemed to have another deck available...

The Leylines were against POX and discard heavy decks.

Now, the tournament:

Round 1 vs. UB Faeries

G1: He drops a turn 2 Cloud of Faeries which ends up taking life 10 life from me before I kill it. He drops Bitterblossom + another Cloud and I cast and blow up EE for 2. I then lock him out of the game with countertop and Jace him out.

G2: He misplays severely, and pitches cards like Vendilion Clique to fow to counter a Shackles when I have Academy Ruins in play. I drop Counterbalance, but he counters it and then extirpates it. He keeps drawing counters and dudes which I keep killing. Eventually, I establish control, but I'm at 2 life. I have a shackles grabing a Mistbind Clique, but I'm afraid to attack, fearing the V. Clique. He does a another misplay here. I have shackles, with the M. Clique under it, and he has a ratchet bomb with 3 counters. He should have blown the bomb during my EOT to get back his guy, swing and kill me. Instead, he upped his Bomb to 4 counters, so I A. Ruined back an EE and blew it up. I eventually land Jace and he concedes.

1-0

Round 2 vs. The Rock

G1: Not much to say here. He drops Putrid Leech, tries to put a Armadillo Cloak on it and I respond by plowing the little worm. I drop Countertop, so he doesn't get to ressolve anything. Then Shackles comes down. Then Jace. Then Elspeth. Then he dies.

G2: I don't get countertop online and he grips my Shackles, but I plow his few guys and mount a defence with Elspeth. Elspeth then goes ultimate and I bring a now indestructible shackles back with Academy Ruins. I steal his <INSERT FAT CREATURE HERE>, drop Jace to start fatesealing and ride the <INSERT FAT CREATURE HERE> to victory before I can deck him.

2-0

Round 3 vs. Affinity

G1: He crushes me G1 like affinity is ought to.

G2: My hand contains Brainstorm, Top, Misty Rainforest, Island, Energy Flux, 2 ???. I play island go. He plays Great Furnace go. I play Misty Rainforest, tap Island, drop Top go. He plays another Furnace, drops some Chromatic Stars and passes. I crack the fetchalnd, see with top, put a plains on top, drop energy flux. He gets his board obliterated and then scoops.

G3: Turn 2 Kataki takes a shit on his face.

3-0

Round 4 vs. Mono Black Suicide

G1: He mulls down to 4. I keep a hand with M. Forest + Plains as it's only mana sources. He plays first and Hymn's me on his second turn, hitting the plains. This could be bad,. I miss my land drop, while he is playing draw, swamp, go. However, I then rip 3 consecutive Flooded Strands like a champ. I drop Big Daddy Jace, brainstorm a bit and then fateseal him to death.

G3: All his "Dangerous" dudes are plowed or countered until I can drop shackles. I then hard cast leyline, so he can't hit me with discard. I play jace, he plays Powder Keg, and tries to kill my Jace & Leyline with Keg. I tell him to read his card and we laugh for a bit. After that, it is proven once again that Shackles > his deck.

4-0

Thoughts:

-Shackles is incredible, never running less than 2 ever again.
-Submerge was amazing vs. the rock deck, although that's on the common knowledge side.
-Don't sideboard chill. Ever. Just cram in more removal if you fear goblins.
-Explosives was very good, I'm not cutting it.
-I suggest everyone to try Ruins if their running EE. It is just that good.
-I also suggest going up to 3 Jace. It is probably the single most powerful card in the format.

Thats all for now.

Comments?

hyc8028

01-11-2011, 02:12 PM

@ The Treefolk Master: Did you miss the 3rd color at all? You can only set explosive @ 0, 1, 2.

What is your plan against CBtop mirror? Merfolk? Goblin?

EE is a bit slow if the meta is fill with aggro, but they are really good at answering everything. I have those in the SB. I agree with you on the Shackle and Jace. Shackle is so good that you should never have less than 2. If I have a 3rd Jace, I ll definitely trying to fit him in the deck. He is really good.

The Treefolk Master

01-12-2011, 09:13 AM

The thing is, the meta around here is still developing, so I didn't expect Goblins, Merfolk or Countertop.

If I expected Goblins/Merfolk, I would play the UWr version I previously posted, but with 1 more Shackles (only had 1), which has a much better game against said Tribal decks.

Against Countertop, you could go for the black splash (extirpate & thoughtseize say hi) or I suppose you could try to grind them out by killing their Goyfs and Counterbalances with recurring EE, in which case they would be forced to win with expensive 4cc cards; were we clearly have an advantage (5 walkers say hi). However, I'm not sure how this would work out. KIlling them with a shackled goyf would also be possible I believe.

In summary, it depends in what you're expecting. I expected mana disruption and some fringe decks, so I went with the most solid manabase and, if needed (Affinity for example), some dedicated hate in the sideboard.

Agreed EE can be slow sometimes, especially against Merfolk (playing around daze) and is innefective against goblins. However, I find it crushing against Zoo, Elves, or other aggro decks with an extremely low curve.

hyc8028

01-17-2011, 02:04 AM

I took my UWR Countertop Walker to SCG San Jose with 9th place today with 6-1-1. I ll post a mini tourney report tomorrow.

The Treefolk Master

01-17-2011, 07:39 AM

Congratulation! Can't wait for the report.

hyc8028

01-17-2011, 05:54 PM

Here it is: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19732-9th-Place-with-UWR-Countertop-Walker-SCG-Open-San-Jose

Hanni

01-17-2011, 06:10 PM

I wrote this in your report thread, but I wanted to post it here as well:

Nice job! It seems like both the red splash and the black splash would have been good, since you had a mix of matchups. Losing to Merfolk with the red splash is bad times, though. Maybe the black splash with Peacekeeper in the sideboard would have been better against them? It seems to me that both the Elves and Merfolk matchups would have been just as easily won with Peacekeeper postboard, but you would have had an easier time against the matchup vs LSV.

Either way, and I know I said it already, nice job. Even with Control being poorly positioned with all the Vial decks in the format right now, you just proved that this deck can and will do well at big events. The deck literally has all the tools it needs between MD and SB to answer just about anything. Congrats.

Btw, totally agree with Elspeth. She's a frickin house, and I'm tired of people hating on her because of Jace TMS. Run them both, Top 9 SCG San Jose, sounds good to me.

hyc8028

01-18-2011, 03:12 AM

Blast is awesome. It is part of my fault that I kept that land lighted hand against Merfolk. I took a chance and it backfired on me.

Peacekeeper is awesome against Merfolk, but it doesn't do much against Goblin.

Elspeth is an house and most people thought I was running 4 Jaces. It kinda of took them by surpise that I played Elspeth. Jace is still really good, but he has a huge target on his back. People have all kind of weird cards to combat JTMS (repeal, needle, Jace Beleren). I might make some minor adjustment and might try to fit in 3rd Jace in the main.

I had at least 6 people asked me this on Sunday, "Why don't you play Goyf?" I just smiled and say, "I want to play with something cool and not vanilla like goyf."

dorsch

01-19-2011, 12:15 PM

I worked on the list for some weeks now. Since I'm new to Planeswalker-Control type of decks, my tournament results are poor.
I tried lots of different lists, switching the number of planeswalkers, spotremoval, deciding between shackles/wrath etc.
In the end I came to a list very similar to the one in the opening post:

// Lands
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Kor Haven
4 Island
3 Tundra
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins

// Spells
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Predict
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
2 Vindicate
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Dromar's Charm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 2 Innocent Blood
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Vindicate
SB: 3 ??

Some explanations to my list:
I love Dromar's Charm and use each of its 3 modes frequently.
4 Predicts seems the right number for me. Game 1 some cards are almost dead while some others are desperately needed. Worst case it still cycles.
I don't need more than 2 Vindicate main, but number 3 is in the SB versus Counterbalance and Jace.
I'm testing Academy Ruins, but I think I will cut it. It's not worth it, just for EE out of the SB.
Kor Haven is nuts. It feels like another removal.
I love my perfect CB curve:
..0 ..1 ..2 ..3 ..4 ..5
23 12 .12 .5 ..4 ..4
Since I often face Iona, Emrakul or Progenitus, I need 4 off-color/edict-removal post board.

My questions to you:
1) I read, that black is superior to red versus CB. Why? Red gets REB.
2) Since red also gets Firespout, I assume the tribal matchup improves too. Which matchups get worse by switching Vindicate and Extirpate to REB and Firespout?
3) I have 3 SB slots I'm undecided. Do I need Wraths? More spot removal? Counter? During the last tournaments I saw Supreme U, NO Bant, Lands, Dreadstill, Punishing Thresh and to a lesser extent Zoo, Affinity. What should I do, except playing Merfolk?
4) I have troubles deciding on my sideboard slots, because I do not know my good and bad matchups. I suppose Merfolk is bad. What else do I have to prepare for?
5) Do you ever side out all copies of Predict? I haven't figured out in which matchups Predicts are weaker or stronger.
6) With the list provided above, how would you SB versus Supreme Blue (http://deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiavdk9k9ia)?
7) Why would you want to board duress? Isn't Meddling Mage superior?

Thank you for answering my questions and providing me with a deckconcept I really enjoy playing.

JoeyNineToes

01-21-2011, 09:27 AM

What do all of you think about adding Moat? I want to play this deck but lack the shackles ATM. I think one Moat w/ two Enlightened Tutors could be strong. A resolved Moat stops Merfolk and Goblins cold, unless they run Corhelm Commander.

In competitive Legacy, I've been running Mighty Quinn for some time, hence the Moat/tutor suggestion. Scepter/Chant FTW has become dull, countertop should be a nice change of pace!

--Sorry, missed all of the middle pages that discuss moat. Makes sense. Still need something for the 3cc slot that doesn't involve red. I have no vindicates either. Threads of disloyalty? O-ring? Any other suggestions?

The Treefolk Master

01-21-2011, 12:12 PM

Until you can get shackles, the best option is probably O-Ring.

hyc8028

01-21-2011, 01:48 PM

Shackle is a house and it is not that expensive. You need the 3cc for CB. I tried O ring before and it didn't even come close to the sheer power of shackle.

I feel Moat is definitely playable, but probably in SB against tribal because our main deck is already very tight. If I own a Moat, I might use it instead of my 3rd FS in SB.

@dorsch: I'd love to answer your question, but I never played the black splash before, so it is best if Hanni can answer those question.

Does this deck qualified to be in the establish yet?

dorsch

01-21-2011, 06:15 PM

@dorsch: I'd love to answer your question, but I never played the black splash before, so it is best if Hanni can answer those question.
You answered my questions regarding you decklist in the other thread, that helped a lot.

Does this deck qualified to be in the establish yet?

Established Decks
For "finished" decks: Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested. A deck is not required to have proven itself in a competitive tournament environment to be included in the Open Forum, but it is recommended. A thorough writeup including card choices, strategy, and matchup descriptions is required.

[x]optimized and tested
[x]proven in a competitive tournament
[ ]writeup including card choices, tournament strategy and matchup descriptions

hyc8028

01-21-2011, 11:45 PM

You answered my questions regarding you decklist in the other thread, that helped a lot.

[x]optimized and tested
[x]proven in a competitive tournament
[ ]writeup including card choices, tournament strategy and matchup descriptions

I can write up a primer for the UWR version of the deck, but I ll need to get Hanni's consent first.

Hanni

01-22-2011, 08:53 AM

My first few posts in this thread already outline some card choices and some matchup analysis/sideboard plans. Maybe it's not a pretty format where I bold each card name and explain each card individually, but do you really need me to explain why Swords to Plowshares and Sensei's Divining Top is in this deck?

The only things that really need explained, as far as card choices go, are the unusual ones. If you read the first page, I go into detail about why I play Counterbalance, Predict, etc. Don't forget, this was originally a Landstill deck before it became the deck you see today.

Also, there doesn't need to be a primer for UWr, when the thread should stay UWx. Both the black and red splashes are only minor splashes; the rest of the deck is exactly the same.

The Treefolk Master

01-22-2011, 11:16 AM

I can write up a primer for the UWR version of the deck, but I ll need to get Hanni's consent first.

You'll probably wan't to devote a large piece of test to explaining predict, as the masses seem to dislike it.

hyc8028

01-22-2011, 11:38 AM

You'll probably wan't to devote a large piece of test to explaining predict, as the masses seem to dislike it.

I agree. People are not sold on Predict and we need more explanation on that.

On a side note, has anyone thought about Grim Lavamancer in the SB for red splash? He seem like what we need to shore up the Merfolk matchup.

The Treefolk Master

01-22-2011, 11:56 AM

Isn't Peacekeeper good enough against them? Lavamancer is good, agreed, but only if he lands on turns 1-2 (or they have a very slow start, in which case you should be winning anyway).

hyc8028

01-22-2011, 12:13 PM

Isn't Peacekeeper good enough against them? Lavamancer is good, agreed, but only if he lands on turns 1-2 (or they have a very slow start, in which case you should be winning anyway).

Peacekeeper is really good against Merfolk and random tribal, but bad against Goblin.

The Treefolk Master

01-22-2011, 12:33 PM

Firespouts should keep the goblins in check. I mean, firespout their board away, then counter the Siege-Gang Commanders and Ringleaders, drop Shackles, and dominate.

Koby

01-22-2011, 12:47 PM

Firespout + Lavamancer together are better than each individually. Goblins can recover after a sweep effect fairly fast, esp with Vial out. Lavamancer ensures they play on your pace, and not vice versa.

A multi angle approach is necessary to deal with vial aggro decks. You need both spot and recurring removal to make this happen.

Hanni

01-22-2011, 01:32 PM

A multi angle approach is necessary to deal with vial aggro decks. You need both spot and recurring removal to make this happen.

Swords/Path + Shackles

JoeyNineToes

01-22-2011, 04:16 PM

I played hyc8028's list Friday at the local, or as close as I could pull together. Coundn't find all of my dual lands. Didn't slow me much. Boy do people fear Shackles! Went 2-2 but was totally my fault. First time playing countertop, and first time playing a serious blue deck in a long time, not since Dr Teeth before Goyf showed up on the seen.

My SB differed.
3- Relic
3- Peacekeeper
2- Clique
2- Needle
2- EE
2- Energy Flux
1- Firespout

It's only what I threw together last minute. I'd really like to see some in depth discussion about SB thoughts I really liked Peacekeeper and Clique. Needle came in handy but was probably unnecessary. Flux was just to fill a slot and would be handy if anyone still played affinity (or thopter).

Definitely needed the three drops. It was the hole people usually walked through. Notably with Troll Ascetic and Deed.

.nemesis

01-23-2011, 08:55 AM

Hey guys. Just registered to try to contribute here. :)

Seems like great minds think alike... haha. Or something like that. After playing fish for some months, I bought into some duals and figured I'd try to construct a true control deck for our local tournament. I didn't like how Landstill was extremely slow and had no source of reliable card advantage, so I built a UBR CounterTop variant that had Sedraxis Specter and Vendilion Clique, backed up by 2 JaceTMS. I had 2 open slots that should have been CC2, but I couldn't think of anything the list lacked, so I just crawled through my card boxes for a mostly unconditional drawspell. I found a playset of Predict and they were awesome the whole day through.

Sooner or later I found a UWx shell that looks almost like your list, Hanni, only it had Spell Snare instead of more spot removal.

This is it:

//Land
22, including 1-of Academy Ruins and Tolaria West

//Win Conditions
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant

//Permission
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance

//Card Draw/Selection
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Predict

//Removal
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Helix
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives

The sideboard had Peacekeeper and the missing 2 StP from the maindeck as anti-aggro, can't remember the rest though.

Now, Counterspell has always been a 4-of for me, I've tried 3 and 2 of those but then I always wanted more flexible permission, as they answer just about everything someone might throw at you and fill slots in the most important cc2 section. Lightning Helix seems a bit odd at first, and the split with StP was solely because of mana curve reasons, but it was the nuts against Zoo, Merfolk and Goblins every time. Sucks balls against the undercosted fat everyone else is running obviously, but it's not like there's no other removal at hand. You can just counter the dudes too. I was very happy with that list and the amount of raw power combined with the synergy the cards have feels really good.

22 Lands is the go-to in my opinion, as I virtually never draw too few lands. Sometimes I flood out, but maybe that's because of bad Brainstorm use too.

Strange I couldn't come up with Kor Haven myself, as I'm running it in one of my EDH decks, where it's always teh nutz. This little gem will see play in my next incarnations for sure.

I crammed together some of the lists floating around here and came to this list last night:

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Tolaria West
1 Kor Haven

//Win Conditions
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Carddraw/selection
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top

//Permission
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

//Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Smother
3 Vindicate

//Sideboard (15)
2 Smother (Possibly Edict effects against SnT)
3 Peacekeeper
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spell Pierce
1 Academy Ruins

Testing results will probably come in the next days or weeks.

A friend of mine has been running a quite similar build (like 8 cards difference or something like that) but he has Lim-Dul's Vault (2 of), which according to him are just bonkers. Without CB, they are Vampiric Tutor for 2 mana and with CB they are Counterspell + Vampiric Tutor stapled together. He has no source of actual card advantage save for CB and Jace though, but you could also run LDV and Predict in combination as they have some awesome synergy with each other. Maybe someone wants to try LDV out, I've seen it live and in action and can only approve.

The Treefolk Master

01-23-2011, 10:42 AM

hyc8028

01-23-2011, 12:06 PM

Won another, 16 person, local Legacy tournament. I'll post the report later. Went 4-0-1. In the last round I was the only one with 12 points, so I offered my opponent the draw. He refused. I beat the crap out of him in game 1 and offered the draw again. He thought for a while and accepted.

Beat mefolk 2-0, more on that later.

Good Job on winning and beating Merfolk!

LDV with Predict seem interesting. LDV is also blue and 2 CMC.

I am glad this deck is getting more regonitions. I don't know why people still play Thopter CB when we have this.

The Treefolk Master

01-23-2011, 01:10 PM

Report time:

I used the same mainboard as before, but I'll post it again for completeness sake:

8 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Vedalken Shackles

The sideboard however, was different:

1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
1 Oblivion Ring (had 1 slot, I thought this was the best option as a catch all).
3 Pithing Needle
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Meddling Mage
2 Energy Flux
1 Kataki, War's Wage

Round 1 vs. some guy who misread the tournament anncouncement and thought we were playing pauper. Not much to say here, he was trying to ramp with eldrazi spawns into Ulamog's Crusher and some random 7/7 eldrazi... Not worth more words.

2-0
1-0

Round 2 vs. UWb The Tezzerator

G1: I mull to 5. He keeps his opening 7 and mocks me for my mulligan. I proceed to go turn 1 top, turn 2 Counterbalance, while he is stuck in two lands, one of which is a Wasteland. I drop Jace, FOW it through, and he scoops.

G2: Everything happened during this game, both me and him made some horrid misplays. He lead with land Needle, naming Jace. I play land, top, go. He plays and academy ruins and passes. I play Needle naming academy ruins, which was very benneficial, as he spent the whole game with EE, Top, Needles and Thopter + Sword in the Yard. He drops Trinket Mage, and I don't counter it with fow, countering the top he fetches insted (facepalm). He then drops another trinket mage and begins to beat down, while I try to hold the fort with Elspeth. He drops Jace, and instead of bouncing my token/fatesealing, brainstorm. I drop Meddling Mage, which is spell snared, so he taps out. I pump a token, kill Jace. He then EE's for 1, blowing out mi Needle, and beats for 4. I fetch, drop needle (Ruins), another Mage, pass. Trade Mage with Mage. He passes, I drop Jace, brainstorm, kill the Trinket Mage and pass. He draws and says go. I fateseal him, ship Tezz to the bottom. He asks if I had nailed Tezzeret, I say yes, he scoops, showing me a hand of fow + Spell Pierce.

4-0
2-0

Round 3 vs. Ub Merfolk (facepalm)

G1: I keep THE NUTS: Island-Tundra-Top-Counterbance-3 x Swords. I lead with top, he fows, exiling a reejery. He plays Island => Cursecatcher. I drop Counterbalance and he sacs the Cursecatcher. I tell him to read his card and he frowns. I pass. All his dudes are countered/plowed (he drew 3 LOA) and he scoops when he is in topdeck mode vs countertop + Elspeth.

G2: I mull to 6 and keep 2 tops + 3 land. He plays island + cursecatch. I drop top, which resolves. He swings for 1 for a few turns why I keep drawing lands. He Thoughtseizes me, and takes 1 top. I find a counterbalance, and drop it. At some point, I draw with top, play another one and cast predict. He responds by extirpating my top. I'm about to hand him my deck when I remember counterbalance counters the extirpate. He is clearly frustrated, and then drops reejery and sygg and begins to beat down. He drops another Reejerey which I counter. A get beat down to 3. but I'm able to plow and O-Ring all his dudes, while countertoping his lords. He scoops with no board presence and no hand, vs. countertop and Jace.

6-0
3-0
Round 4 vs. BG Infectstompy.

G1: He gets me 1 poison counter before I kill 2 Ironclaw myrs with EE. He then draws about 18 lands and I land Countertop, Elspeth, Jace. I exile his library when he is at 4. GG.

G2: All his creatures are plowed & countered, but he puts me 2 poison counters. At one point, a Putrefaw slips trough, so if he has a pump I die. He doesn't and I go to 7 poison counters. Again, he floods and I stablish firm control with countertop + shackles, while he draws like 18 lands. However, I can't find a win condition for like 10 turns. Eventually, I see Elspeth, then Jace, and kill him while he keeps drawing lands.

8-0
4-0

Round 5 vs. UW Lark Control.

At this point I was the only one with 12 points, so I offer him the draw. He refuses. We play G1. I drop turn 1 top, turn 2 Counterbalance. I drop shackles. He counters with Counterspell but I had a counterspell on top. I then play lots of lands, force through with Countertop Jace + Eslpeth, draw lost of cards, play lots of creatures, and win without much opposition. I offer the draw again, and he accepts.

9-0
4-0-1

Pros:

Winning again.
Getting insanely lucky, dropping the countertop combo early.
Beating the merfolk player 2-0
Winning the control mirror, from a mull to 5, and a very bad position in game 2.

Cons:

I missed the 3rd colour, against the Tezz opponent I would have been able to EE for 3, killing both T. Mages and bringing the game to a close much faster.
Some misplays.
The prices were pure shit. I took home and Ezuri, Renegade leader...
WoG in the side. I wan't some peacekeepers instead.

Comments?

dellan

01-23-2011, 05:25 PM

just a question in g2 i think it was how can he use jace when he named jace with his needle ? or did i miss something ?=)

The Treefolk Master

01-23-2011, 06:39 PM

I had a needle naming A. Ruins. He had needle naming Jace. He played EE for 1 and blew both his and my needle.

eluvial

01-25-2011, 06:07 AM

I have switched over to this deck from a CounterTop/Dreadnought list. This deck is much much better. The biggest problem I am having on MTGO is winning without running out of time. It is convienient how often people will scoop before I play a win condition though. Think I will add the 3rd Jace just to up win condidtions. I have played 15 matches so far going 13-3 with quite a few misplays. I'll write up some thoughts after another 10 matches or so.

The Treefolk Master

01-25-2011, 08:24 AM

.nemesis

01-25-2011, 01:09 PM

hyc8028: How did the tropical island work in the tourney? Did you ever EE for 4 or cast firespout against a bunch of faeries?

If your manabase can support the additional dual land (which are mostly a liability in the matchups where you want to Firespout), you better be running the single Trop. Faeries is not a big factor, but let me tell you this:
I've ran FaeryNinjaFish for quite some months last year and when paired up against control, the ability to dodge your opponent's mass removal by having "flying" on almost any creature is HUGE. The CBtop and Landstill players here weren't usually splashing green if they were UWr. So they lost practically every game because they couldn't keep up with the Tempo those Faery decks can generate. Plus drawing dead cards sucks big time.

Oh yeah, and being able to blow up opposing Planeswalkers is nice to have too when you don't run Vindicate.

hyc8028

01-25-2011, 01:12 PM

+1 to adding the 3rd Jace.

I haven't had any time issues yet, the closest I came to end of the round was 12 minutes against the control mirror (he also played tops).

hyc8028: How did the tropical island work in the tourney? Did you ever EE for 4 or cast firespout against a bunch of faeries?

Not in SCG, the trop was used against thopter in testing for FS. The trop is a wasteland decoy to prevent them taking my utility land and my red source. Most of the time people fall for it seeing I only have 1 green source and they thought it must be important. It also give my opponent false info that I am playing Goyf. Some of my friends suggests Seat of Synod back then when I was running Trinket Mage, but I like tropical island much better because I can EE @4 and use green for FS.

+1 on the 3rd Jace too

So I used my $100 I won from SCG to get me a 3rd Jace. I am thinking of -1 Predict and +1 Jace to try things out.

The Treefolk Master

01-25-2011, 07:58 PM

+1 on the 3rd Jace too

So I used my $100 I won from SCG to get me a 3rd Jace. I am thinking of -1 Predict and +1 Jace to try things out.

That's how I'm running it. The bastard is $100 now; wow.

eluvial

01-25-2011, 09:20 PM

My worst matchup seems to be dredge. I think it's just that I have never played the deck and am unsure what I am doing. CB, counterspell, FOW, Path, StP all seem bad. I have 4 relic in the side but have yet to draw one in 3 matches so that should help when I do.

The Treefolk Master

01-25-2011, 09:36 PM

Yes, CB just sucks in that match up. The counters aren't as dead, but aren't the most useful cards in the wolrd either. Test a bit more, and if you continue to consistently loose to dredge, just add more hate. If you're UWb, add leylines/spellbombs/extirpate. If you're UWr, add either Tormod's Crypt/Wheel of Sun and Moon.

Hanni

01-25-2011, 09:56 PM

Against Ichorid, Swords and Path are great, because they RFG their Ichorid's (their source of making Bridge tokens, using Cabal Therapy, and ultimately using Dread Return).

Making sure to counter their early Breakthrough is important, because it slows them down alot. FoW that when possible.

Postboard, a combination of Meddling Mage (if you run them) and Relic/Crypt is also very good. Peacekeeper can be pretty good against them, too.

Admittedly, Dredge is one of this decks worst matchups. Luckily, it can be sideboarded against.

JoeyNineToes

01-29-2011, 10:20 AM

What do you recommend for reanimator? I'm thinking of running Void in the side, seems more relevant than Relic in the early game. I've considered dropping the red in favor of black for extirpate. I know extirpate is less relevant with Survival gone, still seems good

The Treefolk Master

01-29-2011, 11:53 AM

Extirpate is good, tormod's crypt and relic are also good options. Do people play reanimator in your meta?

JoeyNineToes

01-31-2011, 02:00 PM

Shows up from time to time. I think it is getting a resurgence as it was played by people who were recently playing SoF. They are lost and looking for something familiar;p

It was heavily played at our shop last year. I believe the current is non survival ooze or similiar. Needling ooze works well but Inkwell is a litte hard for the deck to deal with when it manages to hit the board.

I'm going to Indy this weekend. As this is a new deck for me, I'll probably fall back on my mainstay for the last two years. It's potential of getting to the top is lower than this deck but I know how to play it, sideboard it, etc.

nodahero

01-31-2011, 02:45 PM

Thank god you are listening to me Joey. You wont regret it. Everything I have read about the upcoming meta suggests aggro is the deck to beat and your other option is significantly better.

Lemme know if you need to test against anything before this weekend or what not.

BTW I assume you realize who this is but if you don't... It's your favorite combo player. ^_^

JoeyNineToes

01-31-2011, 06:19 PM

Wait, the guy who plays Clerics?

The Treefolk Master

02-11-2011, 12:25 PM

Do you people think this is ready to be moved to Established?

The Treefolk Master

02-16-2011, 09:05 PM

I played a local legacy tournament with the same list as before and got 4th out of 22. I was going to write a report, but I can't remember much, probably due to post traumatic stress disorder caused by loosing to Kodama of the North Tree 2 consecutive games.

If anyone is interested I'll try harder, but most rounds are "drop energy flux against affinity player, he dies."

.nemesis

02-17-2011, 04:15 AM

I played a local legacy tournament with the same list as before and got 4th out of 22. I was going to write a report, but I can't remember much, probably due to post traumatic stress disorder caused by loosing to Kodama of the North Tree 2 consecutive games.

I almost wet my pants reading this. :D

Last weekend, I won a small (10 peeps) tournament with a UWb list, going 3-0-1.

The matchups:
2-1 against Dredge (dude was a real noobie and me being more experienced beating his deck than him playing his deck just won)
1-1-1 against BGw Loampox (my sideboarding was prob'ly incorrect - lost to Worm Harvest tokens, but didn't board EE)
2-1 against Ub Merfolk (the loss was due to me forgetting to pay for a Peacekeeper trigger, somehow got sidetracked...)
2-0 against 4c CounterTop

List was this:
//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Tolaria West
1 Kor Haven

//Walker
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Draw
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top

//Permission
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

//Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Go for the Throat
3 Vindicate

//Sideboard
3 Peacekeeper
2 Duress
2 Esper Charm
1 Academy Ruins
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Meddling Mage

Meddling Mage in the SB was kind of odd and I ditched him in the meantime... still, this list is awesome. Merfolk suddenly is quite easily defeatable with the amount of removal I run. I probably gotta run 2 WoG in the sideboard for future tournaments though. Goblins roflstomp this deck.

The Treefolk Master

02-17-2011, 01:29 PM

Nice list, although I'd go -1 Sea +1 Tundra.

How has esper charm been running? It seems a bit underwhelming.

.nemesis

02-18-2011, 08:07 AM

I'd actually go with 4 Tundras too, but frankly I only own 3. ^^

Esper Charm is really really good in the control mirror (especially against other CB builds) and against combo. I really can't find any card that's so good in so many random matchups, so I'm probably gonna stick with them because I like my sideboard flexible. Basically, they come in every time I have dead/excess creaturekill in my deck, so might as well draw some more cards.

hyc8028

02-19-2011, 02:39 AM

I think this deck is ready to be in established. I am going to take this deck to a legacy tourney next weekend. I am going to make some minor changes with my SCG list.

Beatusnox

02-21-2011, 01:40 AM

Hey guys, I had originally posted this in the landstill Thread and they sent me over to you, saying that my list looked more like countertop walker and well, here I am asking for your advice.

One thing I have to say, I am planning on running this list in April at SCG Boston, and following that GP Providence, and am running out of money, so some choices are made for monetary reasons, like not running JTMS, If i can get them I will use them, but Have been burning through my Trade Bait to get what I have so far, I started in standard, and came to Legacy so my cardpool was not amazing, That being said, the LIST!

Lands:
Island x4
Plains x4
Swamp x2

Mishra's Factory x4
Tundra x2
Creeping Tar Pit x2
Celestial Colonnade x2 Will be Hallowed Fount When i get them,
Watery Grave x2

I am trying to get Tundras and Seas for the Graves and Colonnades, but I dont know If I will have the money so I am trying to tweak the list as best as possible.

Instant:
Diabolic Edict x3
Swords to Plowshares x4
Force of Will x4
Counterspell x4

Sorcery
Wrath of God x3
Decree of Justice x2

Enchantment
Oblivion Ring x4
Standstill x4
Counterbalance x3

Artifact
Sensei's Divining Top x3

Planeswalker
Elspeth Knight Errant x2
Jace Beleren x2

Reasons for some choices,

Other than monetary Reasons, one thing that I had notices about running counterbalance is I was light on CMC 3, I added Jace 1.0 due to lacking the money for 2.0 and for the fact it is a CMC 3 that helps make up what I am missing. I am thinking on Dropping the Standstills to 3, adding another Counterbalance, Dropping wrath to 2 and adding another Top. If I had Vindicate it would be in instead of Oblivion ring, though O-ring would be sideboarded for stuff like Emrakul. I am looking into getting some Esper Charms for the as it really seems to improve control matches like nemesis said.

The meta I play in is pretty aggro intensive, so far, this is what I am finding works best, I find the Tarpits are actually working very well for me, and they help me in the Stompy matchup which I am finding more and more common locally.

Thanks in advance guys!

.nemesis

02-21-2011, 07:45 AM

hyc8028

02-28-2011, 02:52 AM

Took my deck to a 18 man tourney today at Superstar, San Jose, CA.

4x Brainstorm
4x Predict
4x Sword to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
2x Vedalken Shackle
3x Counterspell
2x Path to Exile
2x Firespout
4x Sensei’s Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
2x Elspeth Knight Errant
2x Jace the Mind Sculptor

4x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tundra
1x Tropical Island
4x Island
2x Plain
1x Academy Ruin
1x Kor Haven

SB:
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Engineered Explosive
2x Vendillion Clique
2x Peacekeeper
1x Firespout
1x Path to Exile
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Enlightened Tutor

I figure the graveyard hate is unnecessary since the banning of Survival and I feel that they are taking so much slot where those slots could address Merfolk. The 1 of tutor and the 1 of needle and crypt give me a mini tool box and act as a 5th CB or 3rd EE. Predicts can make up for some of that lost card advantage.

Round 1: RB Goblin 2-0
Game 1: He kept drawing ports, but I kept on drawing land. I landed 2 shackle and he scoops to save time.
SB: -4 FoW, -2 CB, +1 Enlightened Tutor,+1 Pithing Needle, +1 Firespout, +2 Engineered Explosive, +1 Path to Exile
Game 2: Shackle again. Not much to say here.

Round 2: Forgemaster MUD 2-0
Game 1: He mull down to 6 and he started with Mox Diamond, land, Monolith, Metalwalker. Then I play a Tundra and StP. He got a Goblin Welder out 2 turns later and I have Shackle active. Jace locked him out moments later.
SB: -4 FoW, -1 CB, +1 Enlightened Tutor,+1 Pithing Needle, +2 Engineered Explosive, +1 Path to Exile
Game 2: He land an early Metalwalker which I took out with PtE. Then he landed a Lodestone Golem and hit me for 2 turn. I got Shackle online. He drew nothing and I get the Jace out to lock him out and go to down with his Golem.

Round 3: Junk 2-0
Game 1: Turn 1 top, Turn 2 CB. He couldn't do much. I just take out all his dudes with StP and PtE and landed a Walker.
SB: -4 FoW, -2 FS, +1 Enlightened Tutor,+1 Pithing Needle, +2 Engineered Explosive, +1 Path to Exile, +1 Tormod's Crypt
Game 2: Assemble CT by turn 3. Got Elspeth out and get the job done.

Round 4: Merfolk 0-2
Game 1: I just draw bunch of land and Coralhelm Commander just took me down.
SB: -4 Fow, -4 CB, -3 CS, -1 Predict. Side in everything in my SB except the crypt and the cliques.
Game 2: I had turn 1 needle naming vial, then try to land top on turn 2, but he FoW, then wasted my dual. GG for me.

Round 5: ID

Top 8: RB Goblin from Round 1 2-1
Game 1: I have 2 Shackle in play. Nothing is going through.
SB: -4 FoW, -2 CB, +1 Enlightened Tutor,+1 Pithing Needle, +1 Firespout, +2 Engineered Explosive, +1 Path to Exile
Game 2: I have needle naming vial and I have Shackle in play. He played couple Warchief and Chieftain and took me out quickly.
Game 3: Got Shackle out on turn 3 again!! Land Elspeth, then Jace. He took out the Jace with REB. I ultimate Elspeth. He had no answer to it. I have bunch of token and indestructible Shackle active. I can also lock him out with EE since I have Ruins in my hand. He scoops.

Top 4: Mono Blue Merfolk 1-2
Game 1: He blew me away.
SB: -4 Fow, -1 CB, -3 CS, -4 Predict. Side in everything in my SB except the crypt and the cliques.
Game 2: Turn 2 CB, follow by a Firespout, then a Peacekeeper. I drew a Top later, kept a 2 CC on top to prevent Echoing Truth. I landed Jace and Ultimate him.
Game 3: This game should have been mine. I got peacekeeper out again, but he played Back to Basics. I completely forgot that REB can take any blue permanent and I was stupid enough to fetch a basic plain instead of a Volcanic. He bounced my Peacekeeper with Echoing Truth and I have no 2 CC on top, then his lord did 14 damage on me.

4th place out of 18 people

Props:
Shackle being MVP of the day!
Peacekeeper, you are the real deal against Merfolk and random crap.
My SB, for holding up so well the whole tourney.
Weather is very nice today.

Slops:
Forgot that REB take out any blue cards.
Losing to Merfolk twice, I am 2-6//0-3 against them with this deck now. Gotta overcome this demon somehow.

ivanpei

02-28-2011, 03:34 AM

I'm interested in this deck. Plan on doing some testing with it. I like the fact that the deck renders opponent's removal dead. Quick question, why the 2/2 Jace/Elspeth split? I'm more inclined to play 3 Jace, 1 Elspeth as Jace is such a house + blue card to pitch to force. Jace TMS IMO is a better finisher since it locks opponents out as well. Also, why is spell snare not popular? I've played Snare in various countertop decks and landstill, it's cheap and useful. I'm planning on playing a UWbr version:

4 Brainstorm
4 Force
3 Counterspell
2 Predict
2 Spell Snare

4 Counterbalance
4 Top
2 Shackles

4 STP
2 Path
3 Vindicate

1 Elspeth
3 Jace TMS

4 Flooded
4 Delta
1 Scalding
4 Tundra
2 Sea
2 Volc
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island

SB:
2 Needle
1 Path
3 Firespout
2 EE
3 Extirpate
4 REB

Any advice for someone new to CounterTop Walker? What advantages does this have over landstill/ Countertop-goyf? The obvious ones are: Shackles = Win against goblins/merfolk if it sticks. No goyfs= auto CA against decks with removal. Anything else I'm missing?

Misplayer

02-28-2011, 09:39 AM

I audibled to a UWb build when I couldn't pull the cards together for big zoo at a local 22 person event. I should have played UWr considering there were 4+ goblins and 2 merfolk or so. I beat UGR Show and Tell/Cascade-Hypergenesis and UGR Grow, lost to 12post/Candelabra/Emrakul (almost an impossible matchup), Affinity & Sneak/Show. Emrakul 3/5 rounds is kind of a pain. Counterbalance felt weak. Poor mull/sideboard decisions did not help.

On Elspeth: I would classify her as a better finisher than Jace and wouldn't drop below 2. I won with Elspeth every time except for one concession to a ramping Jace. I'd consider a 2/3 split but 5 plainswalkers feels heavy considering you don't want to see them early.

.nemesis

02-28-2011, 09:45 AM

Quick question, why the 2/2 Jace/Elspeth split? I'm more inclined to play 3 Jace, 1 Elspeth as Jace is such a house + blue card to pitch to force. Jace TMS IMO is a better finisher since it locks opponents out as well.

To put it simply: Because of those dreaded Tribal/aggro matchups. You can't stick Jace if you haven't stabilized the board yet, whereas Elspeth helps you in stabilizing. Also, with a 2/2 split you can go Superfriends mode more often. Double Planeswalker is teh nutz.

I have a small report from yesterday, 57 people tournament @ Duelmen, GER. I played the UWb list from some posts ago, with the sideboard being as follows:

3 Peacekeeper
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins
3 Duress
1 Wrath of God
2 Esper Charm

Round 1 - Dredge:
Game 1: He wins the die roll and goes City of Brass -> Tireless Tribe. I scoop it up in response, so he doesn't know what to board.
Game 2: I mull to 6, looking for some relevant cards, then open with Island, Top, Tormod's Crypt. He has to read the Crypt and I start figuring he's somehow really bad. He goes Turn 1 PImp, discards 3 cards, then passes. I play another land and pass. He forgets to dredge, then plays Careful Study, which resolves, dredging something like 10 cards. No Narcomoebas though, so I let him proceed. He then casts Breakthrough for 0, which also resolves, setting fire to about 2/3 of his library. I exile his graveyard in response to a Narcomoeba trigger, after which he doesn't do anything relevant anymore.
Game 3: I open with USea, Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb. I manage to grind out the game with Ruins/Spellbomb lock and then beat him down with Elspeth.
1-0

Round 2 - Green & Taxes:
Game 1: I kill some dudes, take some damage from Scryb Ranger, then get double Shackles active. Jace seals the game under CBTop, him having Vial@3, me putting down 3 Mangaras.
Game 2: I mull to 6, keep a bad hand, don't draw enough relevant stuff and get stomped to death by Knight of the Reliquary. He tells me he's running a singleton Thrun, the Last Troll, so I board in my singleton Wrath of God.
Game 3: I mull to 5, keeping a weak hand of 2 Lands, 2 Counterspells and Force of Will. I counter his first Knight, then he goes Turn 4 Thrun. I start digging for my WoG with a topdecked SDT, but fail to find it in time. Nice.... first being trolled by my deck, then my opponent...
1-1

Round 3 - Monoblack Control:
Game 1: I keep very solid 7 cards with permission, removal (GftT and Vindicate), some lands and Brainstorm. His first business is Turn 2 Smallpox, which I let resolve after brainstorming, figuring I've got enough land to drop 4 of them if unmolested further. He then drops Phyrexian Arena, which is met with Vindicate the turn after. After that, The Rack comes down, dealing me 5 damage over the rest of the game. I manage to get CBTop active, draw some cards and Jace him out.
Game 2: He Blackmails me Turn 1, but I don't show him my Counterbalance. I get CBTop active turn 3, which promptly locks him out. Jace lands after 2 Predicts and an Esper Charm, he's dead.
2-1

Round 4 - Sneak and Show:
Game 1: I keep a hand with FoW, Brainstorm, Predict, lands and Shackles. We drop some lands, he casts Turn 3 SnT, I try to force, he forces back, then puts Progenitus into play. Damnit.
Game 2: I mull to 6, keep a business-light hand with Duress and Esper Charm, then only see lands for 3 Turns. I can blow up his first Sneak Attack, but he's got a second one. Then Emrakul tentacle rapes me.
2-2

Round 5 - Dredge again:
Game 1: I scoop it up in response to Putrid Imp.
Game 2: I mull to 6, then Spellbomb-lock him out quickly.
Game 3: I mull to 6, but can't manage to find any hate. I brainstorm into Peacekeeper turn 4, but can't drop him because I'm 1 mana short. My opponent has lethal damage available, but forgets his second Ichorid, putting me at 3. I drop Peacekeeper, he has no solutions and it's easy going from that point.
3-2

Round 6 - Ugb Threshold:
Game 1: His mana denial doesn't quite affect me, but he can counter my Elspeth that would've dealt with his lone Mongoose. Having no other outs, we go to game 2.
Game 2: My memory is a little blurry here. I can somehow draw out his countermagic with Jace and Counterspell, then drop Elspeth and Shackles. He then accompanies his single Mongoose with 2 Tarmogoyfs, which would have cost him the game if I wasn't such a scrub. I topdeck EE, first want to cast it for 1, but then decide to blow up his Goyfs. Yeah, somehow I seem to like losing... Mongoose then eats my face, while my opponent kills my blockers with topdecked removal...
3-3

Gotta practice playing this list more. It's extremely powerful but does jack diddly if you're a bad player like myself...

melie

03-05-2011, 07:07 AM

@ hyc8028
I see that you board out your FoW's in every matchup. What is the reasoning behind this? Is it just because the rest of the deck is to tight to board out? I get it against the agro matchups but against the MUD I would have definately kept them in.

hyc8028

03-05-2011, 12:44 PM

Beatusnox

03-06-2011, 05:45 AM

O-Ring is a decent replacement for Vindicate if you're on a budget. You absolutely will need fetchlands though, because of their awesome interaction with Brainstorm and SDT. That said, where the heck is your playset of Brainstorm?

Oh and you totally have to run Predict. They make this deck what it is and are the main reason why this deck is actually better than Landstill. Other than that: Run 4 SDT and 4 CB. SDT is simply the best card in the deck (if you run fetches) and CBTop is still your plan A.

I for some reason space-caddett'd your post.

The reason for the absence of Brainstorm, is the lack of fetch lands. As I am starting to run out of money, the choices I have to make are becoming more and more arduous. If I can get them before April and May, brainstorm will definitely be in the deck, If I cannot then I will try to make due with what I have.

The Exlusion of Predict is the Lack the JTMS. I am looking towards getting Predicts so I can test without having JTMS to help it along, I am doubtful it will be too powerful, but hopeful enough it will do its thing. I am trying to get a 4th Top, If I can It will be in, along with a 4th Counter Balance.

I am thinking my biggest issue here is I like the eternal formats as a player, I hate them as a minimum wage earner supporting his family.

.nemesis

03-07-2011, 07:43 AM

FoW definitely have it moment against MUD game 1, but I felt that PTE/STP is better off addressing stuff that I want to FoW. One you take out an early Metalworker/Goblin Welder. They are stuck with a fatty or some dead cards. MUD is just like stompy variant. They have to mull a lot and their deck is very hand dependent. Also, they have to devote a lot of resource to land one threat, which this deck has no problem dealing with them. Once you take out one of the key pierces (Metalworker/Welder), they are not that scary.

I really like FoW against Stompy-ish decks. When they get to play first, they aim for some really unfair play on the first turn, and some of those plays actually do win the game almost on the spot. Think Trinisphere or Monolith/Key into Forgemaster. If you can get their first drop and they've spent lots of ressources on it, it's a really juicy target for FoW.

I actually lost to Forgemaster MUD last week though. Turns out keeping a G1 hand without FoW but with Counterspell was much too slow. Some advice though: Peacekeeper is the nuts against them as they have almost 0 ways to get rid of it. Shackling their Welders also wreaks havoc upon their board development.

I take out FoW because the deck is tight and I feel like FoW is not needed against aggro deck. Against Goblin, I ll just let them have their vial and focus on landing a walker/shackle. Against Junk, they would thoughtseize/duress before landing any relevant threat. Have CBtop is more important in that match it basically lock half of their deck. Don't get me wrong. It is the best card in legacy. I just feel FoW unnecessary against aggro deck when I can 1 for 1 the creature every time and get the CB lock/Shackle/Walker down to take control of the game.

This is exactly my experience, adressing the tribal matchups. This deck is really good at trading 1:1 with aggro each turn and then drown them in card advantage. I usually don't want all the 4 FoWs against aggro, boarding them out frequently too.

Beatusnox

03-19-2011, 03:59 AM

Nemesis did you miss my last post?

Also, could I try running Predict with brainstorm and using the predict on my self?

Should I get the fetch lands before the Dual Lands I need? Or the two Tundra?

hyc8028

03-19-2011, 04:13 AM

Nemesis did you miss my last post?

Also, could I try running Predict with brainstorm and using the predict on my self?

Should I get the fetch lands before the Dual Lands I need? Or the two Tundra?

Most of the time we target predict on ourselves to get rid of dead stuff. With top out, it should let us see 3 new cards.

You should get the duals first if you can. It seems like they are just going to be more expensive.

Beatusnox

03-20-2011, 02:44 PM

Most of the time we target predict on ourselves to get rid of dead stuff. With top out, it should let us see 3 new cards.

You should get the duals first if you can. It seems like they are just going to be more expensive.

Looks like im getting me a playset of predicts then. I can use Brainstorm as well now.

Store Clerk

03-22-2011, 11:36 AM

I played in my only 2nd legacy tournament just a week ago (and I've been playing sealed, draft and standard for over 12 years now), the 1st was some years ago in a sideevent at a GP with a fiends deck so doesn't really count.

Allthough I have most of the staples and seeing as is is on the rise in my area I'd take a crack at it.

The deck I played for 4 rounds was not the worst, but I made a lot of deckbuilding mistakes and ended up loosing all 4 rounds and going 1-8 i games.... Not quite what I'm used to in the other formats. So I have made a new deck and want your comments.

Here's the deck:

V.2

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor

1 Future Sight
2 Counterbalance
1 Propaganda
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing

2 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Pithing Needle

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
7 Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Kor haven

SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Wrath of God
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds

I am contemplating to switch a Jace for either a control magic or Pendrell Mists (or even Annex) to both have more to deal with creatures and have CMC 4 to tutor up and put on top for Counterbalance, is this an good idea?

I have another idea of splahsing black via a Underground Sea and a swamp instead of 2 of the regular islands for this:

main:

in: Underground Sea + Swamp out: 2 islands

SB:

in: 3 Extirpate and 1 Nihil Spellbomb instead of the 4 Leyline of Sanctity to better battle mirrors, vengevines and all graveyard functions
in: 1 Wrath of God instead of one of the Tormod's Crypts now that the graveyard battle is a lot better
in: both Oblivion Ring and Crucible of Worlds swicthed for 2 Vindicates for added flexibility.

And are there any other pitfalls I have missed before again going to a legacy tournament?

Hanni

04-03-2011, 10:48 AM

I've been away from Magic for a while now, but occasionally I'll come view a few threads. I've been thinking on and off about this deck, and I've come to decide that the deck really needs 3 Vedalken Shackles maindeck. The card is what I always wanted Wrath of God to be; mass removal that generates card advantage. The difference here is that Shackles continuously does this throughout the game. It becomes even stronger in multiples, it's lower casting cost is extremely relevant in modern Legacy, and being a 3 drop increases my density in that cc range for Counterbalance. When it comes to handling aggro, there is literally nothing better than Vedalken Shackles.

I've also been weighing on the third color splash. Vindicate is great at what it does, but splashing into a third color for it when Oblivion Ring does essentially the same thing (minus hitting lands) seems unecessary. There have been matchups where hitting a land is relevant, but those are few and far between. Plus, with Counterbalance and Shackles already, there's tons of targets for the opponent's artifact/enchantment removal, so being able to be destroyed by a Qasali Pridemage or Krosan Grip just isn't that big of a deal to me anymore.

Going down to 2 colors, I can safely drop my land count to 22. I've playtested multiple matchups now, and cutting back on a land has been literally a nonissue. The deck has a much lower curve than decks like Landstill, and runs such a stable basic-fueled manabase that establishing the proper color sources and total number of lands even in the face of multiple Wastelands is fairly easy.

Here's the U/W build I'm currently testing now, to great effect:

U/W CounterTop Walker

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
7 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [LG] Moat
SB: 4 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

klaus

04-03-2011, 12:13 PM

Nice MD, Hanny!
I'd be willing to test that draft as it is, since I cannot find anything that needs to be changed at that point.
The only thing that comes to mind would be:
-2 O.Ring
-3 Island
+2 Engineered Explosives
+2 Tropical Island
+1 Academy Ruins
I don't think EE conflicts with your non-land permanents, since there are so few to beginn with.
Also, with seven basic lands (15 incl. fetches) your mana base would still be solid as hell plus you could be running Grip in the SB.

Speaking of the SB, I just can't view Oblivion Ring as a SB card - it's a swiss knife for sure, but that's exactly what a control deck wants their MD cards to be. Grip on the other hand is specific hate - I don't think I need to elaborate further.

Humility, like Oblivion Ring would be a potential MD choice imo. It becomes significantly weaker G2/G3 since CB and Shackles will make your opponents board in any Disenchant effects availlable to them, making Humility's worse.
Peacekeeper looks fine though - especially since CB-Top is a nice way to protect her.
I'd probably run Paths #3&4 in the Humility slots - thoughts?

Hanni

04-03-2011, 12:40 PM

EE doesn't have a cmc of 3 for Counterbalance (big reason why I prefer Vindicate and Oblivion Ring over it MD), and with only 2 colors, it's pretty bad. Even going to 3 colors, EE still doesn't answer some of the 4cc stuff that O Ring can (like opposing Planeswalkers).

The only matchups I'd really rather have EE are the ones where my opponent either has multiple problematic artifacts/enchantments (like Enchantress), or against swarms of tokens (like Dredge and EtW). I don't expect to see much Enchantress, and both Counterbalance and Jace are pretty amazing in that matchup anyway. As for EtW, I'm pretty happy with my Storm matchup, and against Dredge... well, it's one of those matchups that's just going to be bad preboard.

Also, EE does conflict with my deck. Most of the stuff EE will be hitting is 2cc and 3cc stuff. My deck is almost like a Stax deck; it grinds out card advantage and control over the board with permanent-based solutions: Counterbalance and Vedalken Shackles (and Top and Planeswalkers too, of course). I'd rather not have to choose between blowing up my CB/Shackles or my opponents stuff.

I'd sooner splash black for Vindicate than green for Krosan Grip, but the third splash color is purely preference for this deck. Some prefer red, some black, some green. Myself, I'm satisfied right now without a splash.

As far as O Ring in the board goes, you're right. However, I want something that deals with artifacts and enchantments in that spot. I only run 2 answers to them MD, and I'd like to have an extra 2 postboard for the matchups where it matters. I could go with Disenchant, but O Ring can still answer creatures/etc if there are no artifacts/enchantments that need answering. I'm content with leaving them in the board for now.

As far as Humility goes, it's there for Goblins and NO/Bant. I was having a toss up between it and Moat, but ultimately sided with Humility since it cannot be destroyed by Qasali Pridemage. Against Goblins, shutting off their CA (Matron/Ringleader) is the key to winning the lategame against them, which Humility does. I realize Moat would be better vs them, but it's worse vs NO/Bant. So I'm torn between the two. If I went back to the black splash, I'd probably just fit in Engineered Plagues to specifically handle Goblins and let the NO/Bant matchup be handled by Peacekeeper (they usually only run 4 StP for the Peacekeeper, which I can easily counter/drop another Peacekeeper).

So to sum it up: Right now, I'm 100% content with the MD, and I'm still a little iffy on some of my sideboard choices. 4 Pithing Needle may be too much, and I'm not sure if I should go with Moat or Humility just yet. It may be possible that I eventually go back to the black splash, MD Vindicate, SB Engineered Plague and up the Peacekeeper count to 4 or something (for NO/Bant and Merfolk).

When I say 100% content with the MD, I mean 100% content. Aside from possibly swapping the 2 O Rings for 2 Vindicates again (and fitting in a USea/Scrubland), everything feels perfect. 2/2 is the right number of Planeswalkers, 3 is the right number of Predict, 4 is the right number of Counterspells, and the removal suite is absolutely perfect too. To top it off, I'm running 21 blue spells for FoW, and my curve for Counterbalance is beautiful with 14 1cc, 11 2cc, 5 3cc, 4 4cc, and 4 5cc.

EDIT: For the SB, maybe I'll drop 1 Needle for 1 Peackeeper and cut the Humilities for Moats vs Goblins. That way I have 4 Peacekeeper for Merfolk, which can also be used against removal-light NO/Bant, and obviously Moat is better vs Goblins. Much to think about...

EDIT 2: Yea, I changed my sideboard around and it's working pretty well so far. I've updated my decklist.

Jackehehe

04-06-2011, 04:08 PM

This deck looks truly amazing and I've tried it some on MWS. I wholeheartedly agree with your list. All the removal and them shackles are neccessary to beat aggro, and CBT is obviously win vs combo. Aye, I can see this deck performing very well indeed.

How well does the deck fair against controll "mirror" ?

Hanni

04-06-2011, 07:18 PM

There are many different control decks out there, so my matchup against the control mirror depends highly upon what control deck I'm up against.

For the typical blue control mirrors, Elspeth is savage at destroying opposing Jace's, Counterbalance is pretty good at dominating the stack, and Pithing Needle out of the board to shut down the opponent's EE's and Mishra's Factory's is also really strong. Meddling Mage comes in against some control mirrors, but that's matchup specific.

As far as actual matchup percentages... you'd really need to narrow down what control mirror you had in mind. If you're referencing CounterTop Thopter's, this deck has a great matchup against that deck, both preboard and postboard.

ivanpei

04-06-2011, 07:20 PM

Deck looks streamlined, simple and very stable. Excellent list! Will test it. Not sold on kor haven though. How many times do you actually use it compared to the times it's been wastelanded? I'd prefer it be another fetch or basic since this deck can safely drop basics for the first 3-4 turns to play around wastelands. I hope this deck is the best answer to the current meta. Your deck was the first that sprung to mind when I was looking for a stable countertop list. I've been on the 4c intuition countertop bandwagon but right now a 4c manabase is impossible to support with so much tempo in the meta. Cheers.

Hanni

04-06-2011, 07:23 PM

I love the single Kor Haven. Tapping for colorless is rarely an issue, since its my only colorless source, and my deck has tons of colorless costs. The ability to randomly shut down a big guy while I wait to draw a removal spell is really nice coming from a "spell" that I can tap for mana EOT if nothing else to spin my Top. It does eat Wasteland sometimes, but so do my Tundra's. I love my singleton Kor Haven, but it's my own tech and it isn't mandatory for the deck to function well.

EDIT: Also wanted to add how nice it is to drop a Planeswalker on a clean board with a Kor Haven in play. Kor Haven is also "uncounterable," which can be relevant sometimes.

ivanpei

04-06-2011, 08:24 PM

Another option is Karakas, that card is pretty good right now with Show and Tell/NO being pretty popular. I'll test em both out. Cheers.

Hanni

04-06-2011, 08:49 PM

Another option is Karakas, that card is pretty good right now with Show and Tell/NO being pretty popular. I'll test em both out. Cheers.

Kor Haven is an answer to any untargetable or pro everything creature, whereas Karakas is strictly only good against Emrakul or other targetable legends. Karakas does tap for white though, so I see no harm in running it. This deck does a pretty good job of beating Show and Tell though, especially postboard.

Tinefol

04-07-2011, 02:07 AM

Kor Haven is an answer to any untargetable or pro everything creature.

Kor Haven still targets.

Jackehehe

04-07-2011, 03:09 AM

Thanks for the reply, even though I wasnt very specific in what I was saying you did manage to answer it quite satsisfactory. Initially I felt that the SB didn't really contain anything to board vs controll MU:s but then I did figure out that pithing needle and meddling mages has their uses there as well.

you sure running "only" 2 jaces is the right number? seems to me that you have to be a bit careful when playing him, especially vs other jace.decs since you can't really afford to lose one unless your opponent really commits to it.

EDIT: I'm not saying its wrong, I'd just like to hear the reason behind it :)

klaus

04-07-2011, 05:15 AM

Just figured that Aura of Silence seems to be superior to those SB O. Rings:
- Same CMC, double white shouldn't be an issue
- actually more dedicated AND more versatile hate (hates on affinity-styles decks, as well as enchantress and the likes PLUS petal-storm-combo.dec)
- with all those decks floating around: Affinity2.0, Eldrazi, Metal Worker.dec it's a great addition
- can also be dropped preemptively against CB
- list goes on

Hanni

04-07-2011, 05:35 AM

Kor Haven still targets.

I meant to say Kor Haven is an answer to any targetable or non pro everything creature. Was kinda tired when I typed that up.

Just figured that Aura of Silence seems to be superior to those SB O. Rings:

That could very well be. I'll test them in place of the O Rings and see if I like them better. Although, maybe Serenity would be even better. Needless to say, the 2 spots in my sideboard that are currently O Rings, are 2 spots I want to dedicate to artifact/enchantment removal. What the correct 2 are, I'm not yet certain.

.nemesis

04-07-2011, 07:34 AM

I have to side with Hanni on the O-Rings, usually they are just Vindicate without black mana. They're better against SnT decks than Vindicate, for obvious reasons.

Still, I do like the black splash a lot because I get to Edict effects, which are really good in our metagame. Everyone and their mother are running UGx Tarmogoyf+Mongoose decks, so I need some maindeck solutions against an onslaught of angry mongeese.

Anyhow, this post is for another story of success. Went 4-0-2 in Hanover last weekend, finishing 3rd place.

My list was as follows, no massive changes from the previous list, added the 23rd land/61st card. Heretic style, man!

//Land
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tolaria West
1 Kor Haven
1 Academy Ruins

//Walkers
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//Permission
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance

//Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict

//Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Vindicate
2 Vedalken Shackles

//Sideboard
3 Duress
3 Spell Snare
3 Peacekeeper
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wrath of God

The maindeck is made of awesomesauce with a grain of HELL YEAH.
Now, I'm not 100% certain on the sideboard. Peacekeeper and EE as well as the GY package are to stay because our metagame has boatloads of Dredge decks, which demand at least 8 dedicated hate cards. WoG is a bit meh, I'll try out Humility in that spot, possibly. Snare and Duress are there to compensate dead cards in control mirrors or against combo.

Matchups on that day were
R1 - TES: 2-0, A good matchup to start, and I could even outplay him both games.

R2 - BW Deadguy w/ Vials: 2-1, Lost G1 to mulligan into oblivion, then crushed him G2 and G3.

R3 - Staff/NO Elves: 2-0, Game 1 was long and drawn-out, but I could lock him under CB and finally land Jace. Game 2 was short - I cast Turn 4 Peacekeeper, he tanks, flips through his sideboard, facepalms and offers the handshake. :)

R4 - 4C CounterTop: 1-1-1, had to draw G3 because of some epic misplays on my side. Guess the Kebab in my stomach was drawing too much attention.

R5 - GW Living Taxes: 1-1-1, G1 he steamrolls me, G2 I lock him down under Peacekeeper, G3 starts with someone shouting "TUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURNS!"

R6 - Tempo Bant: 2-0, G1 I stabilize at 9 life and ride it home in superfriends mode, G2 he wastes a dual, then I tutor up Kor Haven which basically wins the game on its own by buying at least 6 turns. To add insult to injury I topdeck the singleton WoG before dropping Jace and Elspeth.

So, how about my sideboard? I'm still not quite sure if that's good, and the meta is in such a flux these days that I basically want 25 slots for it. :(

Hanni

04-08-2011, 05:07 PM

Congrats on your finish. I don't have any comments for your sideboard because I don't know what you are trying to accomplish with it. I can explain what I am trying to accomplish with my sideboard if you'd like, and you can draw ideas from that. Or you can list what matchups you want to address, and I can try to offer some options.

Also, just wanted to let everyone know that I am currently working on a primer for this thread. It's 10 Word pages long right now, not sure how long it'll end up being. I'm not sure when I will finish it, but I've been steadily working on it and am hoping to have it finished soon.

Mana Drain

04-09-2011, 11:38 PM

Nemesis, was there any situation where Diabolic Edict was better than Go for the Throat/Path to Exile that day? I know it's another out to Emrakul/Prog, but other than dedicated SnT/Sneak Attack decks and those Storm/Doomsday/Shelldock decks, I think selecting your target is much better. I rarely find G/x decks that NO with only one dude out, or that don't have a fetch ready to crack for a Dryad Arbor.

ivanpei

04-11-2011, 01:50 AM

@ Mana Drain, I'm with you on this one, maybe he prefers 2ccs to curve out with Balance better? In that case, GFTT/Smother is probably a better call. Usually I find path is the best, cheap and simple. I place very high value on basics right now and vindicate is IMO not worth splashing for. I would say 60+ % of legacy decks are running wastelands and I don't like losing to those double/triple wasteland draws.

.nemesis

04-11-2011, 03:54 AM

@Hanni: I want the SB to be as generalized as it can be. I have excess removal in any non-aggro matchup, but I don't like Spell Snare that much, being very narrow and not making the really tricky matchups better. I'm talking about MUD or Elves here. Meh, this is difficult.

@ManaDrain: In that tournament, no there wasn't. There were some Doomsday and SnT decks though, so it could have been the other way round too. In other tournaments though, Edict also was needed. We have a lot of UGx Thresh-style decks here and I have no other outs to a resolved Nimble Mongoose. I also don't run Innocent Blood because of it being sorcery speed and for mana curve reasons.

FYI, I ran the same list at the monthly Iserlohn tournament yesterday. Finished 3-3, but I scrubbed out big time in 2 rounds, that sucks...

ivanpei

04-11-2011, 05:33 AM

People still play mongoose? Haha, Jk, I know traditional Canadian threshold is doing well. I understand your reasoning. Ever thought about E. explosives? Good against geese and wrecks vial/ kitties. Cheers.

Diprivan

04-11-2011, 11:56 AM

Hanni,

Could you elaborate your SB for your UW build?
Hope you finish the primer soon, as I really like this deck!

@Nemesis:
Why the spell snares SB? I agree they are semi-good against combo, but when I side cards against combo, it should be cards that wreck them (canonist and friends) I understand spell snare is potent against other decks too, but against which decks is it that good you really really want it postSB?

Hanni

04-11-2011, 06:49 PM

you sure running "only" 2 jaces is the right number? seems to me that you have to be a bit careful when playing him, especially vs other jace.decs since you can't really afford to lose one unless your opponent really commits to it.

I only run 2 Jace because I also run 2 Elspeth. 4 Planeswalker's are more than enough; they are 4cc, and I don't want to be clogged with them early. I (usually) drop my Planeswalker's once I've established control over the board, meaning they sometimes aren't ready to come down till much later in the game (past turn 4). 2/2 is a split that I've playtested with for a very long time and it works beautifully.

Against opposing Jace, I'd rather see Elspeth anyway. Elspeth > Jace when it comes to the mirror.

Hanni,

Could you elaborate your SB for your UW build?
Hope you finish the primer soon, as I really like this deck!

The sideboard is designed to offer an answer to everything.

Peacekeeper locks out a large majority of the aggro decks in the format, especially Merfolk. Moat is there for Goblins, and other decks that contain little to no fliers and/or little to no ways to remove enchantments, but have enough creature removal to keep me from bringing in Peacekeeper.

Peacekeeper is an answer to both Emrakul and Progenitus, and Moat can shut down Progenitus.

Meddling Mage comes in against alot of matchups, including Spiral Tide, Dredge, ANT, TES, and many others. MM can be great against Loam decks, I bring them in against Burn, and they can even be good against certain control matchups.

Pithing Needle is similar to Meddling Mage, in that it has quite a few applications. Needle is great against opposing control decks, shutting down manlands, EE, whatever Planeswalker that they have on the board, Top (if they have one on the board and I don't), Thopter Foundry, and more. Needle is also a good answer to AEther Vial, and the list goes on.

I'm actually trying out Klaus suggestion in regards to running Aura of Silence instead of Oblivion Ring in my sideboard, since it is a far superior artifact/enchantment answer than Oblivion Ring, albeit less versatile.

The Primer is at 17 Microsoft Word pages long now, and it's in its final stages. I'm working on the last section now: Matchup Analysis and Sideboarding Strategy. Expect to see me post the primer in the Established forum by the end of the week.