New DTB section

[Ch@os]

That's not funny, not at all.

[Zapped your pic -- that was annoying. - Bardo]


Every DTB forum update is simply shuffling around the same 5 decks.

[Mark Sun]

Every DTB forum update is simply shuffling around the same 5 decks.

That's probably because, you know, those are the best five decks (four in our case + 2 more in ANT & New Horizons). If you want to win a big tournament, you need to metagame against those decks, and test against said decks. I don't really see the problem here...

[Nessaja]

The new way of determining what the top DTB decks are is a bit sketchy though... I'm sure it's easier, it just doesn't seem like it gives a good breakdown of the required testing gauntlet.

[ramanujan]

Good Morning,

Yes, I would like to have a long and detailed explanation of each deck and why it is in the DTB section with a significant amount of statistical evidence. However, I can completely understand that the time it takes to parse through all of the data is too great. The time it takes to do things is often overlooked unless the person doing it is you.

In the end, the old way just as arbitrary as the new way. Certain events were just not included in the calculation due to small size and the number of participants required to be large enough was pretty arbitrary. In all honesty, I would, in an ideal world want the top 5% of decks from every tournament. Getting back to my point, I have no problem with the new system as it stands, especially if it is updated more regularly. Current information has a much higher weight in my book then a gigantic compilation anyway. For the record, I will be putting Lands and New Horizons in my gauntlet.

Thanks for the update,

Peace

[anonymos]

Or you could design your own gauntlet from local results and do the work yourself. I don't see the problem. The only issue I have with it is now I have to get used to looking for specific things in different places again.

[paK0]

The thing I don't like is how the tournaments were chosen randomly.

Aside from that the method seems better than the old one, however I would utilize something like the biggest tournament in a certain number of states/countries or the X biggest worldwide

[jazzykat]

I like it. If you go to a tournament, you had better no shit be able to beat those decks or at least accept that you will lose to them. There are I would say 5 fringe decks, AdNT, New Horizons, Lands?, Bant XYZ, and Goblins that you should also be prepared for but I wouldn't feel its such a sure thing like I would the 4 that are in there now.

[Nidd]

ANT not a Tier 1 deck? Seriously?

I hope people realize that ANT is now in the same sub forum like Combo Elves. /facepalm

[Ciberon]

I'd actually do stuff the old way if I had the data. I believe the result would come up a little different.

[ramanujan]

I'd actually do stuff the old way if I had the data. I believe the result would come up a little different.

Firstly, know that I have absolutely no power to make any decisions on this sight. That being said, if you want the workload, perhaps you could do the updates from now on. Why don't you contact the admins and apply to do it. I am sure that offering free work would be an incentive to let you do it.

Peace

[cdr]

Before you go volunteering, the DTB will be done differently next time. Bardo just did what he did because it was better than not having it updated.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm not sure why people are upset. The decks in the DtB forum are the best decks in the format by tournament performance. Using all tournaments regardless of size introduces significant bias into the results (I mean, what happens if Ninjas goes on a winning streak in 8-man tournaments in the Philippines? Are you honestly going to argue that it should be in the DtB forum?). Bardo used a shorthand method that approximates the normal one because the normal one takes fucking forever, not least because of all the clever asshats on deckcheck that name their ANT deck "Andy's Giant Dong", which means in most cases you actually have to browse all the lists and make a determination as to what they are before compiling statistics. That takes FOR-EV-ER.

I mean, really, who's going to argue that the decks in there now aren't the best decks in the format? If you're butthurt because your pet deck isn't in there, then go win some large tournaments with it, and make sure other people can win large tournaments with it.

[menace13]

Bardo admitted it was a quick short fix that was better than having decks like Ichorid,Canadian and Agg Loam up there with Zoo,Cbalance,Merf,AnT and Animator.

[dahcmai]

To be honest, why is anyone complaining? Seriously? If you think a deck should be the deck you need to test against, then test against it. Simple enough. Don't whine about how it's not stuck on a pedestal in a forum area. You can bet your sister I will have plenty of testing against Tendrils despite it not being in there when I hit Columbus. lol

Silly peoples. : )



Good job updating it a little bit anyway guys. It was getting a little outdated with Thresh not exactly showing it's head in a while.

[Bardo]

To be honest, why is anyone complaining? Seriously? If you think a deck should be the deck you need to test against, then test against it. Simple enough.

This is really the #1 take-away. If you believe you should test against a deck for a particular event, please test against that deck!

Regardless of the method, no matter how many tournaments you factor, you need to draw the line somewhere. It's not like we can count on Moses to come down from the mountain saying "TEST THESE!" I drew mine at 10%. If I drew it at 5% -- in my calculation -- you'd get ANT and New Horizons in there. If I drew it at 3%, obviously, there'd be more (still no Dredge, however).

I'm happy to leave this thread open since I think the feedback is important.

[Valtrix]

More important than having certain decks in the DTB forum, I think having access to the data, regardless of how it's recorded or tallied, is much better than creating some arbitrary limit for a deck in DTB status. That way people can get a more holistic picture of the metagame, rather than just what's at the top. Then, as it's been said before, people may draw their own conclusions and decide how to use that information themselves. The problem is not knowing what the DTBs are, but rather getting a picture of the metagame to begin with.

[Aggro_zombies]

More important than having certain decks in the DTB forum, I think having access to the data, regardless of how it's recorded or tallied, is much better than creating some arbitrary limit for a deck in DTB status. That way people can get a more holistic picture of the metagame, rather than just what's at the top. Then, as it's been said before, people may draw their own conclusions and decide how to use that information themselves. The problem is not knowing what the DTBs are, but rather getting a picture of the metagame to begin with.
Um...isn't this just another way of figuring out the DtB anyway?

As more and more people become aware of the fact that Legacy has tiers, the metagame is going to be driven increasingly by decks that are either Tier I or are gunning for the Tier I decks. There will always be residual jank, but that's to be expected in any format. It's like saying, "Well, I want to beat Standard, so I need to test against Jund, Mythic, NLB, Naya, and UW Control." If your deck can beat those, you should be fine, because that's the majority of what you'll run into. Similarly, in Legacy, testing against Zoo, Counterbalance, Reanimator, and Merfolk should give you a good idea of how your deck would perform in a generic metagame. If you want a more inclusive picture, then use Lands, ANT, and New Horizons as Tier 1.5 decks. Either way, there's not a lot of need to crunch tons of numbers because your conclusions will be the same, and you should have the smallest working testing gauntlet possible. Testing against more decks that are niche performers is just asking for diminishing returns (and you're losing time that could be spent testing against decks that are good versus decks that are only good when played by a very small group of people).

[Bardo]

(Cross-posted from a similar thread in Format development)

Based on feedback from many site users, I've lowered the threshold for this DTB update from 10% to 5% of top 8 placements in my tournament sample. That moves both ANT and New Horizons (both holding steady at 7% each into the DTB).

This isn't to say that we're always willing to be swayed by popular opinion, but it's important that the staff is not so rigid and inflexible that we're above valid criticism. On a personal note, I think both ANT and New Horizons should be included in a testing gauntlet this summer (for the GP and other events).

PM me with any questions or concerns.

[Valtrix]

Um...isn't this just another way of figuring out the DtB anyway?

I'm saying that determining the DtB isn't the important part. Rather, having access to some tournament data and results is better than trying to decide some method for calculating what makes a DtB. As someone who'd rather look at some data rather than just go to the DtB forum, I find that it's somewhat difficult to go through the sea of information to find useful information. Then again, you'd have to determine how to get this data, which in itself might be what you mean when you say it's the same thing.

[anonymos]

Kind of being silly, but are we going to move ANT out of the DTB section until it reproves itself now that it has been neutered with hamfisting. A similar thought for Reanimator may be in order also.

[eq.firemind]

I tried to look at new DtB as new user that just registered to this site and doesn't know how the hell did you calculate today's DtB.
And you know, it seems to be close to perfect. Information from many other sources and personal expirience just tells me that it contains nothing but truth.
I guess that means that DtB is pretty damn fine (and 5% seems to be perfect).
Mods, thank you for the work and keep it on the same level in future.

[Wargoos]

Kind of being silly, but are we going to move ANT out of the DTB section until it reproves itself now that it has been neutered with hamfisting. A similar thought for Reanimator may be in order also.

You just wake up and then this.
Mystical Tutor banned.
So glad I sold off all my combo stuff in time.

[aznepyon7]

Kind of being silly, but are we going to move ANT out of the DTB section until it reproves itself now that it has been neutered with hamfisting. A similar thought for Reanimator may be in order also.

After the banning of MT, ANT will be out because of how core it was in the deck. It just made Reanimator a bit less consistent so it should still be DTB. There are still some old school choices, though not the same, is still good for the deck.

What I'm curious about is what happened to Survival Bant/Survival.