[DECK] No Mystical Tutor Storm

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

It seems to me that the discussion about what direction to go with Legacy storm is all over the place and it would be nice to have a place to begin discussing new decklists. Thus this thread.

I think that the best way to go with no mystical tutor is in the direction of Doomsday builds, which is the way therefore I think the threads discussion should go. Doomsday allows us to play multiple copies of the engine (doomsday) to help make up for the Mystical tutors, it also allows us to potentially run personal tutor as a replacement for mystical, because it can grab protection (duress effects) or the engine itself. Sadly, it does not allow you to tutor for rituals, but playing more cantrips might help with that. Lastly, it lets us use the Emrakul/shelldock combo against CB Top which still seems like a strong strategy, even if it maybe should be relegated to the boards until the meta settles a bit following the B&R announcement.

People have been discussing which current archetype, can best be adapted to the new meta, but I think we should take the knowledge gained from all of the different archetypes and bind them together into the best deck possible. Please share your expertise, whether it be with SI, NLS, TES, fetchland tendrils, Rev614 or ANT. (please excuse me if i forgot one of the storm archetypes, there are a lot of them in this format.)

I personally think doomsday is the best way, likely with duress effects as protection, what do the rest of you think?

Here is a list that I am currently working on, critiques and ideas welcome:
The business [13]
4x Doomsday
4x Infernal Tutor
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Meditate
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Brainfreeze
1x Tendrils of Agony

Cantrips [11]
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Protection[8]
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize

Manas [28]
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x LED
4x Lotus Petal
4x Polluted Delta
3x BG Fetch
3x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Swamp
1x Island

SB
1x Emrakul
1x Shelldock Isle
4x Xantid Swarm
4x Dark Confidant
3x Krosan Grip
2x Tendrils of Agony

[xTrainx]

Here's a list that I think could do well.

Engine:
3 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains

Tutor:
3(4?) Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor

Cantrip:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Mana Acceleration:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual

Protection:
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize

Land:
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island(??)

Sideboard:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Dark Confidant
1 Doomsday
1 Rushing River
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ill Gotten Gains


The cards with question marks signify a decision to be made; currently: a fourth Burning Wish or the fifteenth land - Basic Island?

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

What are you getting with burning wish in this list?
It looks like your only legal targets are Tendrils (reasonable) empty (reasonable) and burning wish (odd, but i suppose vaguely reasonable). The other one ofs are instants and burning wish cannot get them. Since you can't be playing mystical i don't understand the one-ofs out of the board, especially orim's chant since it massacres your mana base.

It seems like you may want to move a copy of doomsday to the board for wish to go and get. Further, if you are not running IGG i am not entirely sure why you run LED/Doomsday, it seems like you lose a lot of the higher storm count doomsday piles, without it. I would (if going the burning wish route) be running IGG x1 both sb and main as well as an infernal tutor in the board. The problem i ran into when i attempted a build like this, is that i wanted protection in the form of chant effects so that I could cast IGG (where most of the power in your burning wish + LED comes from) but this stretches your mana base to a really poor place, that basically just turns it into the five color mana base of storm. If you don't want to do this another option is running Leyline of the Void (see the iggy reloaded list here (http://www.team-pataners.com/is-ant-the-best-combo-deck-to-play-at-gp-madrid/). Without changes into a burning wish relevant board, it seems like an unnecessary color addition to the deck to run red.

IT also seems really poor at tutoring for protection because if you are doing that you have an empty hand or already have protection in either case it seems silly. Sure occasionally double duress is necessary, but most of the time it doesn't seem that good for that purpose.

[Serbitar]

Cabal Ritual in the board is for the situations(and yes, I have encountered them), where you can go off with one more mana; and you have the Burning Wish in hand.

Cabal Ritual is an instant.

[Vacrix]

@ xTrainx
Your list looks good. I'd make these changes:
-1 Tendrils, +1 Burning Wish. There isn't much reason to play 2 Tendrils if you don't use a draw engine.
-1 Badlands, +1 Island. Basics are tech.

Also, your board looks like it could use some work. It looks subpar IMO.


BTW, Solidarity and SI are completely unchanged by this banning; neither one relied on mystical tutor. So the thread name is kinda misleading in that sense. There are plenty of non-MT storm decks.

[xTrainx]

Oh man oh man. I totally forgot that Wish couldn't get instants - way to used to Tutor.

So yeah, I would put a copy of Doomsday in the board, and the extra copy of Cabal Ritual back into the deck.

Drop the Chant from the board; and replace it with a fourth copy of Thoughtseize.

Also realized that I didn't have a green source in the deck for Krosan Grip; thought about it; and am dropping them for a Rushing River and Ill Gotten Gains.

The Burning Wish in the sideboard is irrelevant most of the time, usually its just a "Hey, look what my deck could possibly do..." trick; and with no red Rituals, the second red mana for Wish -> Wish is harder, and four mana in total can be annoying as well. Dropped it for another Chain of Vapor.

All in all...

-1 Doomsday(main)
+1 Cabal Ritual

-1 Chant(side)
-1 Burning Wish
-2 Krosan Grip
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Rushing River
+1 Chain of Vapor
+1 Ill Gotten Gains

I dislike IGG against blue decks; but enabling more Doomsday piles(and helping an insane amount against nonblue decks) is worthwhile.

Updated the list I posted above.

EDIT: Just saw Vacrix's post, and realization hit. Yeah, two copies of Tendrils in the main is redundant. I can't storm out with just cards from my hand, and when I don't I fetch with Doomsday or use Burning Wish to grab it for an extra storm.

Drop the Tendrils for the fifteenth land(Island) or for another copy of Burning Wish?

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

BTW, Solidarity and SI are completely unchanged by this banning; neither one relied on mystical tutor. So the thread name is kinda misleading in that sense. There are plenty of non-MT storm decks.

I realize that there are still decks that didn't rely on mystical tutor, however, this thread is about brainstorming the best deck that doesn't run mystical across all archtypes, and since neither of these decks has been really tearing it up pre-ban I though it might be worth trying to brainstorm a new deck.

To quote the first post:


People have been discussing which current archetype, can best be adapted to the new meta, but I think we should take the knowledge gained from all of the different archetypes and bind them together into the best deck possible. Please share your expertise, whether it be with SI, NLS, TES, fetchland tendrils, Rev614 or ANT. (please excuse me if i forgot one of the storm archetypes, there are a lot of them in this format.)


Now as to why I don't like SI and solidarity: I think these two decks represent different options on the far ends of the spectrum. Basically SI feels pretty all-in to me and solidarity is the slowest, but able to deal with hate very flexibly due to cunning wish and the ability to go off with death on the stack. For me SI (and belcher) are just not fun to play, i like to be able to devise ways to play through the hate and I liked that ANT builds gave me the ability to do that. Solidarity just feels to slow. It doesn't reliably race zoo and I don't want to be in that place in an aggro vs combo MU.


I think that burning wish builds are interesting, and i think 4x doomsday lists are interesting. I think they are the most consistent while not forcing us to be all in all the time.


@xTrainx
you said


The Burning Wish in the sideboard is irrelevant most of the time, usually its just a "Hey, look what my deck could possibly do..." trick; and with no red Rituals, the second red mana for Wish -> Wish is harder, and four mana in total can be annoying as well. Dropped it for another Chain of Vapor.

All in all...

-1 Doomsday(main)
+1 Cabal Ritual

-1 Chant(side)
-1 Burning Wish
-2 Krosan Grip
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Rushing River
+1 Chain of Vapor
+1 Ill Gotten Gains

I dislike IGG against blue decks; but enabling more Doomsday piles(and helping an insane amount against nonblue decks) is worthwhile.

Updated the list I posted above.

EDIT: Just saw Vacrix's post, and realization hit. Yeah, two copies of Tendrils in the main is redundant. I can't storm out with just cards from my hand, and when I don't I fetch with Doomsday or use Burning Wish to grab it for an extra storm.

Drop the Tendrils for the fifteenth land(Island) or for another copy of Burning Wish?

I think adding a IGG to the main is good since it doesn't actually enable doomsday piles out of the board. That being said I like it coming out of the board too, since sometimes you just win with hands that involve a burning wish. I think cutting the BW in the board for chain isn't right, I would add in infernal tutor as sometimes you have hands like burning wish LED LED and IT in the board turns that into a win. I would also consider running shattering spree in the board for a burning wish target against chalice (though maybe not with no red rituals, worth testing) and I like pyroclasm in my wish board for hate bears, but that is just me.

Finally, I don't really like rushing river, if it is there to beat CB it should be a Wipe Away, if it is for any other permanent type I think it should be more targeted and sorcery speed.

Tell me how the no red rituals plus burning wish is working out, because i have always run at least rite of flame with them, but also thought my mana was bad. Let me know what you think.

[xTrainx]

I actually haven't tested the build at all; more just playing it out in my mind. I suppose I'll proxy it up at some point today and goldfish a couple times; and give you an average goldfish turn with protection.

IGG to the board DOES enable Doomsday piles, although in a very roundabout way.

Meditate, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Burning Wish, Rite of Flame - with 1 Black floating after you cast meditate.

Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal(R), Burning Wish for IGG, BB Floating, play top, flip Top...

And that doesn't work. So adding IGG to mainboard should be done.

Perhaps cut a Cabal Ritual?

And for the IT in the board, it sounds solid; the only thing that I don't like is that, without Mystical Tutor, we have no way to tutor the sideboard removal spells into our hand - meaning we want more sideboard protection options.

The Doomsday engine is still susceptible to the same hate as the previous ANT decks. That is why I have four options in the side.

+ Ill Gotten Gains
-1 Cabal Ritual

----

We'll see how the red ritual thing works out.

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

So I have been working on a DD/Burning Wish list similar to yours and this is the list I have come to through mostly goldfishing:

Action/stuff for doomsday piles (12)
2x Doomsday
1x Ill-gotten gains
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Meditate
1x Helm of Awakening (for arbitrarily large storm doomsday piles with 1 top i play)
4x Burning Wish
2x Infernal tutor (i was originally playing 3 main, but enabling more drawing doomsday hands seemed better)

Disruption (7)
4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize

Cantrips (8)
4x Brainstorm
4x SDT

Mana (33)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
3x Cabal Ritual
4x LED
4x Lotus Petal
6x Fetch
2x Underground Sea
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou (might turn into swamp)

SB
Wish board(9)
1x Doomsday
1x IGG
1x Tendrils
1x IT
1x Shattering Spree
1x Thoughtseize
1x Pyroclasm
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tranquility
Shellrakul(2)
1x Emrakul
1x Shelldock Isle
Other (4)
4x Xantid Swarm

I really would like to fit in 4 dark confidants to fight discard and bring in for the mirror, but I don't what to cut from the board. I would also probably bring them in against control decks to help overwhelm the small amount of removal they left in. This list has been reasonably fast and flexible, you have to mulligan a little more aggressively than with ANT, and memorizing all the doomsday piles has been tough, but I like this list. I think it is very strong and retains many of the elements that made aggo/lands a bye.

[Lorgalis]

@Morim: That list seems solid. However, I wonderif not having a single basic swamp is a good idea. Wasteland is all over Legacy, so IMO you should run at least one.

Questions: with 7 duress effects...do you think having access to green mana is a must? I think that you only want it for Tranquility and Swarm...So, maybe you can solve all your problems in one shot by dropping green out of the equation. You can turn some duals for swamps, swap Swarm for Confidant on the board.

I'll try to give this list a spin as soon as I can, and post results here.


Anyone has any idea on how to adapt Revelation614 to the loss of MT?

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

@Morim:
Questions: with 7 duress effects...do you think having access to green mana is a must? I think that you only want it for Tranquility and Swarm...So, maybe you can solve all your problems in one shot by dropping green out of the equation. You can turn some duals for swamps, swap Swarm for Confidant on the board.

Anyone has any idea on how to adapt Revelation614 to the loss of MT?

Yeah, i am only playing green for Tranquility and Swarm, the real problem though is that I don't want to be all in on the shelldrazi plan game 2 against CB/other blue decks, which is why I liked the Swarm. I do in general dislike it though.

Ideally, I would be playing both chants and burning wish, but I think that manabase is untenable. I guess I should try the 7 duresses plan and just ignore the IGG parts of my deck against blue decks. If I cut green though, I will probably not bring in the confidants because no deck boards out all of its removal (they don't have enough cards to side in), so I will probably be bringing in something else, maybe REB/pyroblasts? That seems ok in the xantid swarm spot. For the mirror we can play 1x Sad Sac to just randomly steal a game or two and that should be enough for the general list.

In summary, SB -4 Xantid Swarm -1 Tranquility +4 Pyroblast +1 Sadistic Sacrament MB -1 Bayou -1 Tropical Island +1 Swamp +1 Mountain/Underground Sea (depending on how much protection against wasteland we want.)

Edit: As for rev614, I think that the deck is hit pretty hard by this restriction, a lot of to power in it came from being able to not have dead cards in your eldrazi if you drew them because the show and tell plan was still legit. Maybe that deck could use personal tutor, since all the relevant (non-protection) tutor targets are sorceries anyway? Not really sure, I am not a big fan of that deck in the old meta, but now who knows what will work.

[jamis]

This is what I'm currently thinking of playing:

Engine:
3 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

Emrakul Stuff:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Show and Tell
1 Shelldock Isle

Tutor:
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Lim-Dûl's Vault

Cantrip:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

Mana Acceleration:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

Protection:
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize

Land:
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
1 Blazing Archon
2 Show and Tell
2 Eye of Nowhere
2 Decompose
2 Deathmark
1 Ponder
1 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Thoughtseize

I haven't really been able to test it very much, maybe only 2 or 3 games total, but I'll likely be able to put in more testing after this weekend.

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

This looks like a decent list, but I guess with only Dark rituals and the artifact mana, I would be worried about the speed of the deck, do you think it can beat zoo in a flat out race. You will probably have a better idea after testing but that would be the first thing i would worry about.

In testing so far I have been pretty unconvinced by IGG out of the board. It means that you need to already have a tutor/action card in you graveyard to be good. In my version I have dropped it, again let me know how it works out for you.

The last thing I would be worried about is your MU with CB top since the deck seems slower and the board doesn't really have anything for that match. Admittedly you are running the Emrakul plan main so maybe it is just all in on doomsday emrakul, but it seems to me that most of these decks are probably figuring out, if they have the counter, to just counter doomsday. Given the speed of your deck can you race if they counter the first doomsday? Also, what does 1 of show and tell main do, since the only tutor that can get it is IT and then only if you have an empty hand, so no emrakul. Plus only one card you really want to show and tell into play, again with the only card to tutor for it main being the IT, same comment.

[Vacrix]

You guys DO realize that Emidln already have a McDank Doomsday list right?
Scope Rev614. Its basically a good version of what you are trying so hard to build.

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

You guys DO realize that Emidln already have a McDank Doomsday list right?
Scope Rev614. Its basically a good version of what you are trying so hard to build.

You do realize that deck runs 4 mystical tutor right? Also don't the show and tells get a lot worse without mystical as i mentioned the last time someone mentioned the deck in the thread.

[jamis]

Okay, just finished my last tournament with Mystical Tutor being legal. Now that that is over, I can actually work toward building this deck.

Vacrix: Yes, I am aware of Rev614. It is actually the deck that I was playing pre-ban, and is the largest inspiration on the list I posted above, so I'm glad the similarities showed through. That said, I don't see any possible way to build a viable version of that deck without Mystical Tutor, which I hope helps explain the above list.

Morim: I agree with pretty much everything you said about the deck. After I posted the decklist, I saw Emidln's most recent build of Fetchland Tendrils and it looks very solid, and seems to address many of the problems of my list. I think I'm going to mess around with his list and try to build something based off that.

I'll either post my newer list here or in the Fetchland Tendrils thread depending on how similar I stay to the current Fetchland Tendrils list.

Edit: Also, What do you guys think of Defense Grid as a Sideboard choice for UBR Storm? I'd rather not splash Green or White. I think it may be even better than Xantid Swarm since it's not hit by creature removal, although Orim's chant/Silence is probably the best option. I haven't played any of the three, though, so I'm not sure. Is there a better anti-counterspell card for UBR?

[Vacrix]

@jamis
He altered his build. Now he is playing an FT variant with the Isle Pile. Its far from unplayable post-ban.

[jamis]

Yeah, I think you and I are talking about the same list. I saw it after I posted mine, and it looks really good. I wouldn't really call it Rev614, but I do think I'll be playing his list with a few minor tweaks.

Here's the current list, but it's still pretty rough right now, especially the manabase and sideboard.

Tutor
4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Infernal Tutor

Draw/Manipulation
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

Protection
4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Wipe away

Emrakul Pile
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle

Tendrils Pile
1 Meditate
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

Acceleration
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Land
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Doomsday
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ponder
1 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Deathmark
2 Show and Tell
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Defense Grid

I may replace a Duress with a second Cabal Ritual, but I was also contemplating Emidln's mention of Rain of Filth since I don't really like Cabal Ritual after Doomsday. I think I'll test this first though, to see if it needs more acceleration.

I am also unsure about the single Mountain in the list. Since I only have Volcanic Island and Badlands as my other red sources (aside form Petal and LED), having the mountain could help against Wasteland, but I could also see it hurting me. Not sure if it should be something else.

I put Show and Tell in as a Wish target since it helps against Merfolk/Dreadstill, and included a second Emrakul and SnT for either Doomsday piles or to increase possibility to draw both. The second SnT also helps if the First gets countered. 2 Deathmarks are so I can wish for one or have one in a Doomsday pile if it's needed. I was considering Blazing Archon over the second Emrakul.

Emidln included Empty the Warrens as a Wish target, but being new to Storm combo I'm not really familiar with what situations I'd want it over Tendrils. Should it be included and what is its use?

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

Yeah, I think you and I are talking about the same list. I saw it after I posted mine, and it looks really good. I wouldn't really call it Rev614, but I do think I'll be playing his list with a few minor tweaks.

<snip>
decklist
</snip>
I may replace a Duress with a second Cabal Ritual, but I was also contemplating Emidln's mention of Rain of Filth since I don't really like Cabal Ritual after Doomsday. I think I'll test this first though, to see if it needs more acceleration.

I am also unsure about the single Mountain in the list. Since I only have Volcanic Island and Badlands as my other red sources (aside form Petal and LED), having the mountain could help against Wasteland, but I could also see it hurting me. Not sure if it should be something else.

I put Show and Tell in as a Wish target since it helps against Merfolk/Dreadstill, and included a second Emrakul and SnT for either Doomsday piles or to increase possibility to draw both. The second SnT also helps if the First gets countered. 2 Deathmarks are so I can wish for one or have one in a Doomsday pile if it's needed. I was considering Blazing Archon over the second Emrakul.

Emidln included Empty the Warrens as a Wish target, but being new to Storm combo I'm not really familiar with what situations I'd want it over Tendrils. Should it be included and what is its use?


This list looks awesome, but is pretty dissimilar to mine, though I am probably going to stealing some "technology" (as the kids are calling it these days).

@Empty the Warrens, sometimes you can storm 5 keep a decent hand and have burning wish, but can't win with tendrils/doomsday right now, these times are awesome for Empty. You poop out 10 goblins, still have a fast clock, have blockers against the fast creature decks, and don't have to blow your whole hand. Earlier tonight turn 2 make 10 goblins, turn 3 attack tendrils you for 10. Seems pretty sweet.

I am currently running rite of flame in my list, how have no red rituals been treating you so far? Semi-relatedly, my list has cut the basic mountain for another island and added some ponders. I found myself unhappy every time I got a mountain, and never wanted to tutor for it, when i cast red spells i either win or don't care that you blow up my land, but I have the surplus from rite of flames.

I am also keeping the emrakul pile in the board in favor of helm in the main to make the infinite storm pile, do you think shelldock/Emrakul is good enough in the good matches to overcome the dead card problem in other MUs? I really like cloud of faeries for the emrakul pile, lets you win right then if you have the right mana. So the pile looks like:[brainstorm, shelldock, cloud of faeries, protection card, emrakul] with two useless cards in hand for the pass the turn, and similar for the win right now, accept that you can have the brainstorm in hand or a top in play?

How have the one of protection spells been treating you? Are LDVs enough to get them when you need to? Finally, do you think deathmark is better than pyroclasm for your wish target for hate bears, I like pyroclasm better in theory because i like the flexibility of killing multiples but so far it hasn't come up either way.

Thanks for posting in here, i appreciate it even if there are other good threads, i think that maybe getting all the different thinkers on the various storm plans together could be really good.

-----------------
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