Overextended/Neo-Legacy format scenario

[(nameless one)]

In the wake of Extended's major overhaul, I have been contemplating about the rumored new format. I have also been thinking if one day, you wake up and find that Legacy has undergone drastic change.

Picture this: its August 20. You are checking the Source and you saw a thread titled: Legacy is dead. The opening thread reads:



"Effectivelly since September the 1st, following sets are banned from the Legacy format: Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, The Dark, Fallen Empires, Homelands and all basic sets prior to 4th Edition. Cards from the three "learning" sets - Portal, Portal II and Portal: The Three Kingdoms - are no longer legal, unless they were printed in some of the legal sets."



I know a lot of us will start crying and announce our retirement from the format. But for those who will not quit the game, how will this affect the format? Yes, dual lands would be the most obvious. Will this change actually change the whole Legacy metagame? Which decks will see the most change? Will the overall established decklists be changed?

Discuss.

[lordofthepit]

I think you made a typo, as it reads, you are implying that Homelands is actually legal in Legacy.

[Ozymandias]

Well, to the top tier decks, AN adds nothing, AQ adds nothing (factory has been reprinted), FE adds Hymn, the Dark adds nothing (Blood Moon has been reprinted), Homelands adds Didgeridoo, but Legends is the big loss. Chain Lightning, Moat, Karakas, and Tabernacle are the big losses, and then fringe stuff like Eureka. Revised duals are a big loss. Sinkhole also disappears. Portal gives us like Loyal Retainers and Imperial recruiter as cards that see play. All in all, decks wouldl probably be able to adapt, and probably aggro would be happier with losing 2-6 life a game to duals. Monocolor strategies would improve slightly.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

the loss of the duals would suck. would people switch to rav duals to keep multi-color decks in play? It'd be really hard to run 3-color Eva without fetching utility, and switching to Ravs isn't a fair trade. I don't know what I'd do, I'd probably have to think about it, and I'm not wasting thought on a 'worst case scenario' like that. if/when it happens I'll worry about it

[KindGrind]

Why couldn't overextended and legacy coexist? I mean lots of us have all the duals and cards from the old sets to competitively play legacy as it is now, so losing the duals and expensive pre-MM staples would really suck. They should have banned Entomb along with Mystical in the most recent update. I think more people would be drawn to Legacy if it weren't from the sheer power level of ANT/Reanimator.

[DragoFireheart]

Lets face it: Overextended is going to happen. Why the drasitic change to extended recently, what with Wizards dropping quite a few blocks from extended? I am not sure if this will kill Legacy, but I am very certain of this new format happening.


Get your Ravnica duals soon and any other lands that may be overextended viable. I know I will be slowly trying to get ahold of all of the blue shocklands in anticipation of this new format.

[jazzykat]

Lets face it: Overextended is going to happen. Why the drasitic change to extended recently, what with Wizards dropping quite a few blocks from extended? I am not sure if this will kill Legacy, but I am very certain of this new format happening.


What is the basis of this speculation? Is it just the recent actions towards exteneded or is there another source of information?

[pippo84]

Even if they do this "Overextended" format Legacy should still be another format, so there shouldn't be this problem. Why should they kill Legacy??
And btw I don't know a single person that would switch from Legacy to Overextended.

[paK0]

If they announce a new format (Legacy still there) then I will just keep playing Legacy, maybe picking up some cards for the new format if the difference from the original Legacy deck isn't too far.

If they would change Legacy I dunno. Either sell my stables and buy new ones, or quit.

[Patrick]

Overextended may happen, but it will similar in popularity to the current Extended, with Extended almost vanishing completely. Extended will be the format of PTQ''s and a Pro Tour, while Overextended will the the Eternal format of the Pro Tour. Brick and mortar shops already have established Legacy communities, and enough people enjoy Legacy to the point where they won't up and quit because a new, less deep format is available.

I can see some people wanting to play this format but with Legacy being as popular as it is now and with most of Overextended's card pool being obscure (Masques, Invasion, Odyssey and Onslaught block) I can't see people ditching Legacy for this format. Possibly supplementary, but not replacing.

[ktkenshinx]

"Effectivelly since September the 1st, following sets are banned from the Legacy format: Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, The Dark, Fallen Empires, Homelands and all basic sets prior to 4th Edition. Cards from the three "learning" sets - Portal, Portal II and Portal: The Three Kingdoms - are no longer legal, unless they were printed in some of the legal sets."

I know a lot of us will start crying and announce our retirement from the format. But for those who will not quit the game, how will this affect the format? Yes, dual lands would be the most obvious. Will this change actually change the whole Legacy metagame? Which decks will see the most change? Will the overall established decklists be changed?

Discuss.
I do not think that this is a likely group of sets that would be excluded from a new format. Wizards' main problem with Legacy has been the Reserve List. It continues to hound them even as they move into this new "Double Standard" format (hence the quote from David-Marshall's article concerning "only so many duals out there".) Because of this, I think it is much more likely that Wizards will draw the New Format line at Mercadian Masques and all sets after October 1999, the end of the hated Reserve List. 6th Edition would be excluded from this, given its April 1999 printing before Urza's Destiny in June 1999.

But what happens to Legacy as a result of this hypothetical announcement? Either Wizards is going to remove support for Legacy as a format, or they will announce Over Extended/Legacy Lite as a supplemental Eternal format. The first scenario is the "doomsday" one, so to speak. In this situation, Legacy would collapse and if it existed at all, it would be as an EDH-like format, supported by players and local organizers. There would be lots of raging maddies, lots of internet petitions for restoring Legacy support, and lots of articles bemoaning the change. But in the end, Wizards, like any good business, will not back down. It's an ugly future, but thankfully an unlikely one.

It's far more likely that Wizards introduces this new format as a midpoint between Double Standard/Extended and Legacy. It would be an Eternal format that had a more limited pool of cards and no problems with the Reserve List. Wizards could freely reprint staples in Master's sets, or even core sets depending on the staples, to ensure that supply and demand remained stable. Fixing markets like that is risky business, but provided it is only done with critical cards (Fetchlands and Shocklands come to mind), then no one should be too upset with the results.

If this happened, then the format that would most be in trouble is Vintage (moreso than it already is, at least). Legacy would effectively become the NEW Vintage, using "Every card ever printed" minus the so-called "un-fun" ones. Over Extended would be the step down from Legacy, existing both as a transition to Legacy, and as a format in and of itself. Unlike Legacy, it would have greater PTQ Potential, given Wizards' ability to reprint cards for its decks. It might also have more popularity than Legacy (which is itself considerable), because Wizards could market it as a less exclusive Eternal format than Vintage/Legacy; we can argue over the exclusivity of Legacy at length, but the bottom line is that some players think it's exclusive, and Wizards might want to cater to them.

So, what evidence might exist to suggest that such a format will be coming? Wizards does not like when its cards sit idle in players' boxes. Yes, it acknowledges that crap like Dwarven Pony and Wood Elemental are never going to see play no matter how diverse they want a format to be. But as to legitimate decks from times past (Opposition, Replenish, Tog, Madness, Rebels, Fires, Slide, etc.), Wizards might want these to come back. A new format could lead to this, and thus Wizards might want to create it.

On a more concrete level, there are currently a large swathe of years missing from Magic formats. Let's look at how Magic formats work as of October 2010:

Standard: 2 years (Zendikar Block, M11, Scars Block)
Extended: 3-4 years (Lorwyn Block, Shadowmoor Block, M10, Shards of Alara Block, Zendikar Block, M11, Scars Block)
Legacy: 17 years (All blocks, Banned List)
Vintage: 17 years (All blocks, Restricted List)

The jump from Extended to Legacy is not only jarring for new players, it is clumsy on Wizards' part. Overextended fits beautifully in that gap:

Standard: 2 years (Zendikar Block, M11, Scars Block)
Extended: 3-4 years (Lorwyn Block, Shadowmoor Block, M10, Shards of Alara Block, Zendikar Block, M11, Scars Block)
Over-Extended/Legacy Lite: 11 years (Mercadian Masques Block, Invasion Block, 7th Edition, Odyssey Block, Onslaught Block, 8th Edition, Mirrodin Block, Kamigawa Block, 9th Edition, Ravnica Block, Time Spiral Block, 10th Edition, Lorwyn Block, Shadowmoor Block, M10, Shards of Alara Block, Zendikar Block, M11, Scars Block)
Legacy: 17 years (All blocks, Banned List)
Vintage: 17 years (All blocks, Restricted List)

That looks much nicer, no matter how you look at it. More options for players, more money for Wizards, more confidence for collectors; everyone wins. At least, that's how Wizards might look at it.

-ktkenshinx-

[Patrick]

I was under the impression that everyone thought Overextended would be Masques forward. There really isn't any other possibility. This gives the format the most cards with zero chance of Reserve List issues arising.

[DragoFireheart]

What is the basis of this speculation? Is it just the recent actions towards exteneded or is there another source of information?

The recent actions towards extended in addition to the rumors leads me to believe that said rumors are likely to be true.

Overextended does two things:

1. Creates a new eternal format for cards that are no longer standard/extended legal.

2. Creates a format that is not held back by the restricted list.


http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy


Interesting enough, Force of Will is not on that list. I would not be surprised if Wotc reprinted Force of Will before or sometime during the existence of overextended. You can claim that they would never do such a thing, but what would that reason be?

[Forbiddian]

I was under the impression that everyone thought Overextended would be Masques forward. There really isn't any other possibility. This gives the format the most cards with zero chance of Reserve List issues arising.

So Wizards recognizes that the reserved list was a big fuckup and now instead of rectifying it by abolishing the reserved list, it's just going to create a new format and intentionally move the start date to avoid reserved list conflicts?

I thought the most logical start time for overextended was the MTGO start as well: Mirage onward.

Same as MTGO, for the same reasons as MTGO (first competitive set). Plus the format would be completely supported for MTGO play (and therefore players could sit in their basements instead of having to, you know, bathe and talk to people and shit).

They could make it Masques onward, but the reserved list doesn't exist online anyway, and I thought Wizards was primarily trying to push MTGO.

[denial]

"overextended"

"double standard"

Is it just the pedobear in my van or does anyone else think these names were made up by cute little girls ? I mean, I can respect names like vintage, legacy, and eternal. While I only can only respect plays on words until the fun has worn off and I dont want to wake up beside them anymore, officer.

Also, if anything its more of a sub-legacy and than neo-legacy.

:confused:

[DalkonCledwin]

I thought Wizards was primarily trying to push MTGO.

I don't think this is the case. I mean WotC seems quite clear that they cannot be sure of their business model for Magic Online being universally applied the same way that Paper Magic is. As such I think Paper Magic is the safer investment, even if it does not make them as much direct revenue.

ON TOPIC: As far as I see the possibility of Over Extended or whatever you deem to call it. Yes I do believe it is something we can all reasonably expect to see in the next few months or so. However I am hoping that the changes to the reserved list can themselves be seen as an indication that Wizards won't totally screw up Legacy itself by creating over extended. What I mean by this is that I am hoping that WotC will understand that much of the value of the highly expensive cards on the reserved list comes from the fact that they are highly sought after cards either in Legacy or Vintage, more often in Legacy than in Vintage. I am hoping that this realization is enough to make them not want to devaluate the collections of several people in the community of Magic the Gathering by abolishing the two most highly valuable formats and thus devaluating several sets worth of cards.

[DragoFireheart]

I am hoping that this realization is enough to make them not want to devaluate the collections of several people in the community of Magic the Gathering by abolishing the two most highly valuable formats and thus devaluating several sets worth of cards.

WoTC is not stupid enough to simply abolish Legacy and Vintage. However, it probably won't support either beyond what happens as of now.



Also, if anything its more of a sub-legacy and than neo-legacy.


Because of the lack of dual-lands? I highly doubt that: we still have rav-duals, fetches (which are argubly better than duals) and WotC can always print something almost as good as duals but nothing quite as good. Futhermore, the following cards are not on the reserved list:
Wasteland
Force of Will
Goblin Lackey
Chain Lightning


These are cards that could be reprinted again some day and the first three have been format defining in some shape or form. All four cards have seen Tier 1 play. Combo in this format will be weaker since LED is still on the reserved list, while other powerful cards like Reanimate and Exhume are not on the reserved list.


The point I am trying to make is that overextended is not as bad as some are making it out to be and I doubt wizards wants to replace Legacy.

[ktkenshinx]

WoTC is not stupid enough to simply abolish Legacy and Vintage. However, it probably won't support either beyond what happens as of now.
...
The point I am trying to make is that overextended is not as bad as some are making it out to be and I doubt wizards wants to replace Legacy.
A new Over Extended/Legacy Lite format will supplement Legacy. It will not supplant it.

It is important that people understand this, both a) because Wizards would never be so stupid to try and kill of Legacy and b) because the players who are supporting this hypothetical format do not dislike or wish ill upon Legacy. Legacy is a healthy and robust format that needs no more changes other than the occassional banning and unbanning. But Legacy still has problems, like any health format.

There is a giant gap between Extended and Legacy, especially in light of Wizards' most B&R announcement. A host of strategies, decks, and cards, which are not necessarily obsolete, have been killed off by the gradual wear and tear of time. Archetypes that existed between 2000 and 2008 are mostly gone, because they are illegal in later formats like Standard and Extended, and because they just don't have enough punch to compete with the Legacy tier 1 decks. In most cases, this is because they can't answer Legacy staples like Force of Will, Wasteland, Swords to Plowshares, fast LED based combo, and so on. These are not bad decks. They are just not Legacy decks.

There are players who want to play these decks and do not want to deal with the Reserve List nonsense that we Legacy players have grown accustomed to. There are players who fear the rising cost of cards, and there will be players in the future who have to confront the realities of 100+ dollar fetchlands (all of them, not just Sea). There are those who want to play an Eternal Format, but do not necessarily want to deal with these potential problems, problems that are growing and problems that are not going away. I do not mean to be doomy and gloomy; the world of Legacy is not in any danger because card prices are rising. i also fully acknowledge that Standard can be as expensive, if not more expensive, than Legacy. And it even rotates every year! But all of that aside, even the most adamant Legacy veterans must admit that eventually new players will have a much harder time transitioning into an Eternal Format.

Historically, Wizards' problem with Eternal Formats has been the lack of profit. You can't make money on cards that you can't (re)print. Unfortunately for Wizards, that turns out to be a lot of serious Legacy staples, most notably the fetchlands. But a new Eternal Format fixes this. Wizards could easily introduce Master's/From the Vaults sets that would reprint key staples and sell them to players for a reasonable, but sitll profit-gaining, price. The end result is a happy Wizards and a happy player base.

To me, the question is simple.
It is not a matter of if Magic needs a new Eternal Format. It is a matter of when.

The new hypothetical format could replace the sickman Vintage and usher in a new era of Magic with options for a wide range of players. This is an ideal outcome.

-ktkenshinx-

[DalkonCledwin]

WoTC is not stupid enough to simply abolish Legacy and Vintage. However, it probably won't support either beyond what happens as of now.

I am not quite sure I follow what you mean here? Are you trying to imply that they will keep both Vintage and Legacy around, but as is the case with Vintage they will not have more than one high level sanctioned tournament a year, and as is the case with Legacy they will only support a few grand prix's a year for Legacy?

[Aggro_zombies]

So Wizards recognizes that the reserved list was a big fuckup and now instead of rectifying it by abolishing the reserved list, it's just going to create a new format and intentionally move the start date to avoid reserved list conflicts?
The rumor seems to be that the Reserved List was tightened, and then Wizards stayed silent about it, because Hasbro's legal department told them to do so.

In that case, it was irrelevant what the players or even Wizards itself wanted. Hasbro, as the parent company, has the final say in any decision. I'm sure there's at least a few sound legal arguments as to why the Reserved List should stay, but I'm not sure that getting rid of it would have necessarily generated tons of lawsuits.

Regardless, Wizards' business model over the past year or so has focused very heavily on supporting brick-and-mortar stores - card and hobby shops that could potentially act as venues for paper tournaments. This is the driving force behind the revamp of the Wizards Play Network and store recognition system.

I think Wizards recognizes the value of MTGO as a supplementary income source for the game, but as anyone who's ever played it will tell you, it's just not the same as sitting down across from some fat, smelly, socially inept nerd and battling. MTGO is also a pretty shitty way to get new players to play the game, and recruitment has been a huge driving force lately.

[jrsthethird]

(and therefore players could sit in their basements instead of having to, you know, bathe and talk to people and shit).

When's the last time you saw someone who didn't bathe, talk to people, or shit before or at a tournament?

[Sharpened]

I'm still unsure why people are so convinced this speculated format is coming. It doesn't make sense.

When you look at the extended changes, and the justification behind them, it boils down to something quite simple - No one played Extended. That's it. The format existed solely as a Pro Tour and PTQ event and was never played outside of those. It was a format that failed to connect with the playerbase, and such needed to be modified in order to try and connect.

So if they are shrinking that format becuase they felt its size contributed in making it a failure to catch on with the playerbase, why would they create a new and larger format to fill the supposed void it creates? Are all the players who weren't playing extended before going to flock to this new thing? No. And as for all the players who are supposedly priced out of legacy and would benefit from this new format, why weren't they playing extended before?

Legacy has appeal, as a format (not just becuase it currently has a great environment/meta). There is certainly a large playerbase who likes the nonrotating eternal format that goes back to the dawn of the game.

Standard has appeal, as a format. A current and ever changing format is clearly quite popular for Wizards.

Extended, as a 7 year rotating format, did not have appeal and was a failure. Why would attempts to shrink it make people think we need something like overextended?

[Cabal_chan]

They better not reprint staples for Over'E because my, you know, collection and shiz values would totally tank.

/sarcasm

[The Wolf]

I tend to agree with Sharpened. I don't see how they will be able to get people interested in two different extended formats when 1 didn't even work. The pros are excited because they get to build new decks, and the few people who wanted to play extended and didn't have the money and didn't know anyone who had cards are on board as well. Everyone else really doesn't care.

Will they make the new format? Probable. Will anyone play it? Probable not...

[DragoFireheart]

Legacy has appeal, as a format (not just becuase it currently has a great environment/meta). There is certainly a large playerbase who likes the nonrotating eternal format that goes back to the dawn of the game.


...

Why would attempts to shrink it make people think we need something like overextended?


1. Another eternal format that could be less expensive for new players to get into when compared to Legacy or Vintage.

2. A eternal format in which all of the cards in it are NOT restricted by the reserve list. Since none of the card are on the reserved list, Wizards can continue to reprint staples, which will help new players get the cards they need to get into over-extended while also getting the price of the cards down.

3. Due to reasons 1 and 2, an eternal format that Wotc can more widely support with official tournaments.



Collectors win since their high-value cards continue to be valuable, players win since they will get a eternal format where any card can be reprinted in a new set (making the format more widely available to players that lack $400 for a playset of a dual land) and Wotc wins since they have a eternal format in which they can fully support without having to worry about the. reserved list.

The truth of the matter is that Legacy, not the reserved list, was a mistake. WotC should have made Legacy after the fact when the reserved list was made. Our current Legacy should have been what the rumored over-extended is, but it's obviously too late for that.

[Sharpened]

1. Another eternal format that could be less expensive for new players to get into when compared to Legacy or Vintage.

Sure, it could be less expensive, but that's probably becuase no one is playing it. When has wizards taken actions regarding about the expense of barriers to entry to format? Especially now, when we are in the age of standard decks that are over the $1000 barrier. While I'm not arguing that you have to spend that much for standard, no constructed format is a cheap solution.



2. A eternal format in which all of the cards in it are NOT restricted by the reserve list. Since none of the card are on the reserved list, Wizards can continue to reprint staples, which will help new players get the cards they need to get into over-extended while also getting the price of the cards down.
If wizards was interested in keeping the price of cards down, we would have seen a Tarmogoyf reprint by now, either as some promo or in a duel/archenemy/promo deck or something. Even if wizards could reprint dual lands, what evidence do we have that they would?



3. Due to reasons 1 and 2, an eternal format that Wotc can more widely support with official tournaments.

The last Wizards official legacy tournament was the biggest magic tournament ever held, right? I'd be willing to bet that the next one (Columbus) is well over 1600 participants. The starcity legacy tournaments aren't exactly small.


Look. The supply of cards isn't what's determining card prices. In print cards have ridiculous prices. Jace is approx the cost of an Underground Sea. Vengevines will run you something similar to LED or Mox Diamond. Demand drives price, and if a new format exists and is adopted by the playerbase, then the staples in that format will be expensive. The idea that wizards will reprint things to keep card values low is nothing but wishful thinking. And frankly, wizards can support the hell out of any format they create, but if no one cares about it, it will just fall into the category of old extended, which is only played for the requisite PTQs.

People have to have a reason to care about the format. Tournaments for the format aren't enough of a reason. The current environment of cards (Standard) is a valid reason. An eternal format going back to the beginning of magic (Legacy) is a reason. Since the last 7 years of cards (extended) failed as a reason, why the hell would "everything since we stopped promising we wouldn't reprint some stuff" work as a reason for the existance of a format?

[lordofthepit]

I think it would be a bad idea if Wizards tried to marginalize Legacy for an Overextended type format. Legacy appeals to a much wider audience simply because people want to play with a broader card pool, and there's a special feeling when you know you have access to every card that has ever been printed. People would still continue to play Legacy because there is already enough of an existing player base and enough recent growth to provide "momentum" for the format to sustain itself. Of course, such an announcement would definitely diminish the player base somewhat, so I hope it doesn't happen, but the format is robust enough as is that I know I can always join a tournament when I want to.

If Wizards tried to completely replace Legacy with Overextended by banning all the cards before Masques, I think it would be a disaster, and we would be able to find out exactly how much the community can sustain itself. I think everyone loses in this type of scenario. Wizards loses because most players would rather quit or play strictly casual than play Overextended, and they lose out on whatever money they could generate from the current Legacy players, which is not an insignificant amount. It's certainly less than a competitive Standard player would spend directly on new sets, but Legacy players do buy products as well, and they also show up at tournaments, play casual, bring new players into the game, and uphold the secondary market for cards that would otherwise plummet when they rotate out of newer formats. Legacy players lose because there would be diminished availability of tournaments, although it could easily survive in a reduced capacity, much like Vintage and EDH, which receive no support, but obviously as a much larger community than either because the format is currently so popular. Collectors lose because the values of their Legacy staples plummets. Local stores lose out for the same reason because players would no longer frequent their shops as often. The only ones that would benefit is are those players that loved the old Extended but did not want to play Legacy at all, which needless to say, is a very miniscule if not nonexistant part of the community.

[DragoFireheart]

When has wizards taken actions regarding about the expense of barriers to entry to format?

Perhaps this IS that attempt. The price of Legacy is slowly going the route that Vintage went. Wizards may be wanting an eternal format that gets around their reserved list.




If wizards was interested in keeping the price of cards down, we would have seen a Tarmogoyf reprint by now, either as some promo or in a duel/archenemy/promo deck or something. Even if wizards could reprint dual lands, what evidence do we have that they would?

WoTC, IIRC, stated that Tarmogoyf was a mistake and his relative power level is the reason he costs so much (along with being popular in a extremely popular eternal format). You stated the very reason Wotc might reprint duals: Legacy is popular and continues to grow: the price of staples and duals shows that.




The last Wizards official legacy tournament was the biggest magic tournament ever held, right? I'd be willing to bet that the next one (Columbus) is well over 1600 participants. The starcity legacy tournaments aren't exactly small.[/quote}

Not if duals start to be $100 a pop.


[quote]Look. The supply of cards isn't what's determining card prices. In print cards have ridiculous prices. Jace is approx the cost of an Underground Sea. Vengevines will run you something similar to LED or Mox Diamond. Demand drives price, and if a new format exists and is adopted by the playerbase, then the staples in that format will be expensive. The idea that wizards will reprint things to keep card values low is nothing but wishful thinking.


False: reprints increase the supply, which will eventually cause a decrease in demand, which reduces the price of the cards. Economics 101.

How much do you want to bet that Baneslayer will maintain it's $40 price tag once M11 comes out? I guarantee you it will drop at least $10, if not more.



And frankly, wizards can support the hell out of any format they create, but if no one cares about it, it will just fall into the category of old extended, which is only played for the requisite PTQs.

Old extended slowly rotated out cards. This rumored overextended won't be rotating anything out.



People have to have a reason to care about the format. Tournaments for the format aren't enough of a reason. The current environment of cards (Standard) is a valid reason. An eternal format going back to the beginning of magic (Legacy) is a reason. Since the last 7 years of cards (extended) failed as a reason, why the hell would "everything since we stopped promising we wouldn't reprint some stuff" work as a reason for the existance of a format?


So there isn't a potential environment for people who want a eternal format but don't want to dump $400 for duals?


None of your counter-arguments provided anything to suggest that overextended is a bad idea. If anything, some of your points actually show why such a format is viable.

[Sharpened]

Perhaps this IS that attempt. The price of Legacy is slowly going the route that Vintage went. Wizards may be wanting an eternal format that gets around their reserved list.

Your best argument that wizards is willing to do something about the barriers to entry to a format, is that they completely revamped a format that no one was playing? Your seriously suggesting that the extended changes are an attempt to reduce the financial barriers to entry to a format? Please. Stop trying to "win" an argument on the internet and look at it rationally.


WoTC, IIRC, stated that Tarmogoyf was a mistake and his relative power level is the reason he costs so much (along with being popular in a extremely popular eternal format). You stated the very reason Wotc might reprint duals: Legacy is popular and continues to grow: the price of staples and duals shows that.

Reasons wizards might reprint duals are not the same thing as evidence that they would reprint to lower secondary market price. Tarmogoyf's powerlevel is a reason to keep him out of standard legal sets, but it probably doesn't matter for promo sets. Do we have an evidence, examples, where wizards took any action with the goal of affecting the secondary market on specific cards by increasing circulation?


False: reprints increase the supply, which will eventually cause a decrease in demand, which reduces the price of the cards. Economics 101.

Yes, supply and demand both affect price. They don't both effect price equally. Are you interested in looking at this rationally, becuase I'm not eager to break out some higher level economic theory on a messageboard. The basic premise is that if in print cards have ridiculously high prices (and they do), having the ridiculously expensive cards back in print will only marginally effect the price, as it is the demand that is far more important a determinant to their price.


Old extended slowly rotated out cards. This rumored overextended won't be rotating anything out. So there isn't a potetntial environment for people who want a eternal format but don't want to dump $400 for duals?

I honestly don't think either of those things matter. A set starting point for the format thats arbitrary is about as relevant as a moving starting point. It's either the whole history of magic (legacy/vintage) or its not (anything else). As for the price, again, thats just wishful thinking on your part. If the format takes off, the most sought after cards in it are going to see their prices rise and rise significantly. Just becuase wizards will be able to reprint any card that they want to reduce the price, doesn't mean that they will and we have little to no evidence that they would be inclined to do so.

More importantly, and this is the important part, we have every reason to beleive that the format won't take off. It won't be popular. It will fail for the reasons that Extended failed. As much as people whine about price, it's currently not a problem. For every person that has quit becuase they have been priced out of the game, two more have taken their place. The price of both standard and legacy have not been deterrents as evidenced by attendence at major events (Aside: No one cares if you know people who have quit or the anecdote of a playgroup that has died out, you are the playgroup you speak of has been replaced twice over). Creating a budget environment to be a pale alternative to legacy doesn't seem like wizards style. Assuming they would do it is a little ridiculous.

[ktkenshinx]

When you look at the extended changes, and the justification behind them, it boils down to something quite simple - No one played Extended. That's it. The format existed solely as a Pro Tour and PTQ event and was never played outside of those. It was a format that failed to connect with the playerbase, and such needed to be modified in order to try and connect.

So if they are shrinking that format becuase they felt its size contributed in making it a failure to catch on with the playerbase, why would they create a new and larger format to fill the supposed void it creates? Are all the players who weren't playing extended before going to flock to this new thing? No. And as for all the players who are supposedly priced out of legacy and would benefit from this new format, why weren't they playing extended before?
The current Extended format only caters to those most recent players who have enjoyed one, maybe two, standard seasons. Yes, it also appeals to veterans who enjoy Standard as a format, but the main target demographic are people that want to hold on to their Standard cards, decks, and strategies before either rebuying for the new Standard, or investing in an Eternal format.

As to the objection about the format's failure to connect with players, this was less a fault of the format itself and more a fault of Wizards. Yes, Extended was not a very thriving format, but Wizards' failure to endorse it at FNM and in wider tournaments definitely caused problems. Starcitygame Opens have hugely contributed to Legacy's popularity, and there was no analog event for Extended players. Now, none of this is to diminish the glaring problems of that format and its metagame. But it does complicate the picture.


Legacy has appeal, as a format (not just becuase it currently has a great environment/meta). There is certainly a large playerbase who likes the nonrotating eternal format that goes back to the dawn of the game.

Standard has appeal, as a format. A current and ever changing format is clearly quite popular for Wizards.

Extended, as a 7 year rotating format, did not have appeal and was a failure. Why would attempts to shrink it make people think we need something like overextended?
The idea is not to make a new rotating format. It would be to make a new Eternal format that is more limited in scope than Legacy. Would it replace Vintage? Maybe, and I actually hope that this happens; Vintage is certainly the least healthy format in modern Magic, especially after its closest competitor, Extended, just got a facelift.

So why is this appealing? Why do we need another Eternal format that exists somewhere between Legacy and Extended? There are many reasons for this, but the biggest two for Wizards concerns metagame diversity and Reserve List issues.

1. Diversity
Legacy is a healthy and diverse format. I acknowledge that, understand that, and do not seek in any way to undermine it. But there are a lot of decks that are powerful, consistent, good, and worthwhile that simply don't make the cut in Legacy. Why not? There are a bunch of prevailing cards and strategies in Legacy that prevent other strategies from flourishing. Can you deal with Force of Will? Is your manabase too vulnerable to Wasteland? Is your combo deck abusing LED? While these are not problems for Legacy, many players might feel that the format lacks diversity. While it does not suffer from the Vintage problem, where two dozen cards are the same in each deck, it still has a problem with some strategies getting edged out just because of the format, not because they are bad.

2. Reserve List
In years to come, the cards that are Reserved are going to be in increasingly high demand. Yet, they remain at a constant level. While players rotate out of Legacy and thus sell their cards on eBay (presumably), this might not be enough to sustain demand. With prices of non-reprintable staples on the rise, a trend that sees no sign of stopping, Wizards might worry that their Eternal format is in a bad situation. A new format would offer players an alternative, and might stave off some of the supply/demand pressures.


I tend to agree with Sharpened. I don't see how they will be able to get people interested in two different extended formats when 1 didn't even work. The pros are excited because they get to build new decks, and the few people who wanted to play extended and didn't have the money and didn't know anyone who had cards are on board as well. Everyone else really doesn't care.

Will they make the new format? Probable. Will anyone play it? Probable not...
Back when the Legacy format split from the Vintage format, people said the same thing. But if the format were actually released, provided it had adequate TO and Wizards support, it would definitely be as attractive as the fledgling Legacy was.


Sure, it could be less expensive, but that's probably becuase no one is playing it. When has wizards taken actions regarding about the expense of barriers to entry to format? Especially now, when we are in the age of standard decks that are over the $1000 barrier. While I'm not arguing that you have to spend that much for standard, no constructed format is a cheap solution.
Standard deck prices are high, but the only card that is on the up and up is Jace the Mind Sculptor. All other cards in that format are pretty stable (Gideon and Vengevine excepted, and even the latter is only in a handful of decks). Sure, stuff like Hierarch and Knight are fetching Moreover, once Standard rotates in another year, the prices will restabilize back in the mid hundresd, $500 or so for a good deck. But Legacy has a future to look to. In this future, many cards will have price tags that are higher than Jace, which makes an already expensive format even harder to enter. Standard is definitely putting serious pressure on players' wallets (Jace the Money Scalper and Walletslayer Angel anyone?), but Legacy looks to do it even more later.

If wizards was interested in keeping the price of cards down, we would have seen a Tarmogoyf reprint by now, either as some promo or in a duel/archenemy/promo deck or something. Even if wizards could reprint dual lands, what evidence do we have that they would?
The purpose is not just to keep prices down. That would serious piss off investors and collectors of the game across the world. The purpose of reprinting would be to keep prices down so as to encourage a format. Even the stingiest of collectors and investors can get behind that, at least so long as the supposedly sacred Reserve List isn't violated; Hasbro legal is all over that apparently. If a new format comes into existence, then Wizards will certainly print cards to get newer players more interested, and to bring older ones back to the formats that they grew up with.

The last Wizards official legacy tournament was the biggest magic tournament ever held, right? I'd be willing to bet that the next one (Columbus) is well over 1600 participants. The starcity legacy tournaments aren't exactly small.
One tournament for Legacy had a lot of participation because it was such a rare and awesome event. But could Wizards really replicate that on a weekly, or even monthly, basis? My guess is no, or they would have done so already. The number of Standard players is, without any question, far higher than the number of Legacy players. It is an easily supported format that anyone can enter into. Because of this, Wizards supports it. Legacy faces a far different reality.

People have to have a reason to care about the format. Tournaments for the format aren't enough of a reason. The current environment of cards (Standard) is a valid reason. An eternal format going back to the beginning of magic (Legacy) is a reason. Since the last 7 years of cards (extended) failed as a reason, why the hell would "everything since we stopped promising we wouldn't reprint some stuff" work as a reason for the existance of a format?
No draw to the new Eternal format? Are you kidding me? The advertising campaign could be targeted at both new and old players alike. A format that has no Reserve List? Check. A format that has lower card prices? Check. A new format with tons of possible innovation and invention? Check. A format where old players can relive their favorite decks between 2000 and 2010, the years where most people probably started playing? Check. A format where new players can jump into an Eternal Format without spending hundreds on some lands? Check.

While writing this post, Sharpened added some more points that I want to address:


I honestly don't think either of those things matter. A set starting point for the format thats arbitrary is about as relevant as a moving starting point. It's either the whole history of magic (legacy/vintage) or its not (anything else)
Mercadian Masques is the end of the Reserve List. That's not arbitrary at all. That's a monumental moment in Magic history, when Wizards abandoned an obnoxious policy. MM is basically the beginning of modern Magic, with the 6th Edition rules changes in effect, the Reserve List gone, and players helping to test R&D designs.

As for the price, again, thats just wishful thinking on your part. If the format takes off, the most sought after cards in it are going to see their prices rise and rise significantly. Just becuase wizards will be able to reprint any card that they want to reduce the price, doesn't mean that they will and we have little to no evidence that they would be inclined to do so.
Wizards wants to encourage a new format to thrive. If they don't want to look like fools with their new format, that means reprinting some old staples in shiny and awesome Premium products to draw in new players and lure back old ones. That is extremely strong incentive to reprint cards that will have the effect of driving down prices.

More importantly, and this is the important part, we have every reason to beleive that the format won't take off. It won't be popular. It will fail for the reasons that Extended failed.
I have seen some reasons why it will fail, and some reasons why it will succeed. Just stating "we have every reason to believe that the format won't take off" means nothing when you can't back it up with evidence. Both sides have evidence in their favor, and it's just a matter of weighing them.
As to Extended's failure, it was a rotating format with a bad set of decks and no support. Of course it failed. Wizards would not repeat their mistake with a new format. It would be an eternal format and it would be well supported and backed up.

-ktkenshinx-

[ryO!]

i don't really see where is the problem with overextended . . .
I mean let's face it, extended never was a real format it was only a born-dead hybrid format, i tend to see the overextended thing as a way, for hasbro, to really create a new interesting format (which is not anyway) in order give a new life to the old extended, and of course get some now profits from that.
Vintage wont suffer from this such as legacy, i mean when overextended will come out do your seriously think that shockcrap i mean shockland will remain that low ? No they ll jump such as any new cards that will become a staple in this format, just like we see now in legacy/type2. So It WON'T solve the recent rise of prices, even "worse" it ll only lead new cards to a price jump. So anyhow that format is to me pointless, as i don't see it to be more interesting than legacy, and it won't be an more affordable, - money wise -, format.
legacy is[n't] dead, long live to legacy.
oh and lastly do you seriously want to spend more than 10$ on a ravinca dual ? SERIOUSLY ? I wouldn't even spend 1$ on it. Not to mention that after the new format they d get even more expensive. Duals are legendary, legacy is too as that was the point of the format. period.
and no kind of neo legacy is needed, as it s fine.

[Captain_Morgan]

It's a good idea to broaden the existence of more deck types that have fallen out of flavor due to rotations, but are too weak to exist in this format because of the Dual Lands. Frankly, I own most of the staples to play in Legacy or Vintage, but there's also cards that I have that do not see the light of day that would see the light of day with a new format. The creation of EDH and even Legacy itself was so that certain cards would be able to be played in a new format. Being able to play in more legal tournaments and using staples between Legacy and "Overextended" is a win, as well as brings new players to the mix. The gap between Extended and Legacy is a huge rift, where mostly only the most powerful cards are played.

[DragoFireheart]

More importantly, and this is the important part, we have every reason to believe that the format won't take off. It won't be popular.

You have nothing to show that would be the case. Stop asserting your opinion as fact and act rational.




Creating a budget environment to be a pale alternative to legacy doesn't seem like wizards style. Assuming they would do it is a little ridiculous.


For someone that continue to mock me by stating I am not being rational, you continue to ignore my points and act irrational yourself. WoTC wouldn't be doing this solely to reduce entry price: they would be doing it so that they have a eternal format in which they can avoid any and all issues with the reserved list.

That would be their primary reason. There might be other subtle reasons, but that one reason alone is what would be the main motivator for wizards.

[DragoFireheart]

Let's take a look at NO/Pro Bant list and see what it would look like in overextended:

creature [17]

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf

instant [19]

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [6]

3 Natural Order
3 Ponder

land [18]

1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath



First gone are the dual lands, but these can be replaced with shocklands. The deck will deal more damage to itself, but that alone won't make it nonviable. Wizards can also make new dual lands that could be better than the shocklands.

Next gone is Force of Will since it's in alliances. Curious thing is that FoW is NOT on the reserved list, so if Wizards wanted FoW in overextended it could reprint it in a new set.

Swords to Plowshares will also go away, but this card can also be reprinted and/or replaced with Path to Exile.

And that's about it. A tier 1 deck in Legacy is relativity untouched: arguments about the new format being stifled in creativity are hallow, baseless arguments. I have, on the other hand, demonstrated how a current legacy deck, while being somewhat weaker due to the mana base, is almost exactly the same as before.

[(nameless one)]

You can play Dredge...

That deck will be virtually legal under the hypotetical Overextended pool.

[DragoFireheart]

You forgot to add the fact that Natural Order most likely would not be included in the hypothetical card pool.

it could be reprinted however.

[lordofthepit]

You have nothing to show that would be the case. Stop asserting your opinion as fact and act rational.

Hey Drago, you claimed earlier that "Lets face it: Overextended is going to happen." I'm not saying that is incorrect, and in fact, I believe that is a reasonable assumption, but that is in fact the most conspicuous case of passing off opinion as fact; it certainly is the most assertive.

[DalkonCledwin]

it could be reprinted however.

yes, it could be reprinted. However just because something MAY be reprinted does not mean it WILL be reprinted. Natural Order will certainly not be reprinted in a standard legal set at any time that both cheap and inexpensive (or possibly even FREE) green creatures are in standard, while along side of any significantly large beatstick green creatures that are difficult to deal with (such as is the case in the confined super block of Zendikar alone).

Take for example the Lands that create Plant Tokens from Zendikar Block along side of Terastadon. Cheating Terastadon into play for only 4 mana in Standard would be a little O.P. in my opinion.

And you won't see Force of Will reprinted until Jace the Mindsculptor rotates OUT of standard, and possibly out of the new extended as well.

Karakas on the other hand has a slight chance of getting reprinted due to the fact that it bounces things like the Eldrazi Titans, but even that is sketchy.

[jrsthethird]

Take for example the Lands that create Plant Tokens from Zendikar Block along side of Terastadon. Cheating Terastadon into play for only 4 mana in Standard would be a little O.P. in my opinion.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/441

4th turn Terastadon more overpowered than 4th turn Emrakul? Hmm....

[DalkonCledwin]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/441

4th turn Terastadon more overpowered than 4th turn Emrakul? Hmm....

that depends, does polymorph grant you the extra turn when it gives you a fourth turn emrakul. Or does it just give you the beafiest single creature card in the game?

Terastadon on the other hand when cast of a 4th turn natural order would come along with three 3/3 elephant tokens granting you an immediate board presence that you may not have had prior to casting natural order, and an undeniably huge fatty.

[Shabbaman]

1. Another eternal format that could be less expensive for new players to get into when compared to Legacy or Vintage.

2. A eternal format in which all of the cards in it are NOT restricted by the reserve list. Since none of the card are on the reserved list, Wizards can continue to reprint staples, which will help new players get the cards they need to get into over-extended while also getting the price of the cards down.

3. Due to reasons 1 and 2, an eternal format that Wotc can more widely support with official tournaments.

In a Legacy that isn't bound by the reserve list there'd still be expensive cards. Extended wasn't popular because it was expensive... now, why would overextended be less expensive than the current extended? A lot of the costs is with cards like Tarmogoyf and fetches, cards that aren't on the reserve list. In Legacy there are competitive decks you can play without cards that are on the reserve list that cost more than 30 bucks. It's not as if the format is inaccessable. It's expensive, but current Extended is expensive as well. Is there a difference between expensive and expensive?

The problem is with cards that everybody wants (but not everybody plays...) like Underground Sea, and cards that had a limited print run (Legends, Portal sets). Wizards has had the time to reprint cards like Goyf and FoW, but they didn't. Hypothetically they could, but I doubt they'd want another Standard with these cards. Even Counterspell is deemed overpowered, why would they reprint FoW? That's not going to happen. It makes sense for Wizards to make a new eternal format, since it would help cards that rotate from Extended retain some value. It doesn't make sense to warp Standard with reprints to make the new Overextended as appealing as the current Legacy. The whole reserve list argument doesn't make sense.

[DragoFireheart]

Hey Drago, you claimed earlier that "Lets face it: Overextended is going to happen." I'm not saying that is incorrect, and in fact, I believe that is a reasonable assumption, but that is in fact the most conspicuous case of passing off opinion as fact; it certainly is the most assertive.

Then explain why the changes were made to extended. Explain why the rumors about overextended have cropped up. Do you think it's a coincidence that with the surge in popularity in Legacy that such rumors have popped up when you also consider that many want WoTC to support eternal formats?

If you want to believe that what I am saying is nothing more than an opinion, then you must accept that Legacy will die off. That is a fact as we watch duals slowly creep up to the $100 ($150+ on SCG) mark and watch it go the route of Vintage and EDH: casual games with little tournament support. If that is what you want then fine, but if not then you better hope overextended happens because once the first of the duals hits $100, you can start to kiss legacy goodbye.

The price of Legacy WILL be a determent to the format: the creation of overextended may help alleviate some of that by driving down demand for duals.

[DragoFireheart]

In a Legacy that isn't bound by the reserve list there'd still be expensive cards. Extended wasn't popular because it was expensive... now, why would overextended be less expensive than the current extended? A lot of the costs is with cards like Tarmogoyf and fetches, cards that aren't on the reserve list. In Legacy there are competitive decks you can play without cards that are on the reserve list that cost more than 30 bucks. It's not as if the format is inaccessable. It's expensive, but current Extended is expensive as well. Is there a difference between expensive and expensive?

The problem is with cards that everybody wants (but not everybody plays...) like Underground Sea, and cards that had a limited print run (Legends, Portal sets). Wizards has had the time to reprint cards like Goyf and FoW, but they didn't. Hypothetically they could, but I doubt they'd want another Standard with these cards. Even Counterspell is deemed overpowered, why would they reprint FoW? That's not going to happen. It makes sense for Wizards to make a new eternal format, since it would help cards that rotate from Extended retain some value. It doesn't make sense to warp Standard with reprints to make the new Overextended as appealing as the current Legacy. The whole reserve list argument doesn't make sense.


The reprints can happen: Wotc is simply waiting for the right time when blue needs a boost and if overextended exists already.


The reason Tarmogoyf isn't reprinted is because you can still crack open packs for him. You can't quite do that with staples like FoW.

[DalkonCledwin]

Then explain why the changes were made to extended.

So it isn't at all possible in your mind that the changes to extended were made because of two very simple reasons:

1. Extended was a dying format that was only played when it absolutely had to be (i.e. during PTQ or PT events or the very few Extended Grand Prix's).

2. Because the various Extended Seasons were so close together that they were basically playing identical formats from one season to the next with very little to no meta changes between them.

These two reasons seem to be the primary reasons I can think of for the changes to extended, not some arbitrary attempt to make a new eternal format.


The reprints can happen: Wotc is simply waiting for the right time when blue needs a boost and if overextended exists already.


The reason Tarmogoyf isn't reprinted is because you can still crack open packs for him. You can't quite do that with staples like FoW.

The reason Tarmogoyf isn't reprinted is because Wizards pretty much has acknowledged that printing him was both a mistake and only because they wanted a poster child for their new card type (i.e. Planeswalkers). If it weren't for the fact that they wanted to display their new planeswalker card type in a set that didn't actually have planeswalkers in it, then they probably would never actually have printed tarmogoyf in the first place and we wouldn't have a Mini-Mox in the form of a creature.

As far as reprints go, do you honestly have any proof to back up your claims that WotC is simply waiting for the right time to reprint any of the stuff from older sets that isn't on the reserved list. Because some of that stuff is simply put, O.P. and I doubt they will ever be stupid enough to reprint it, reprint policy or no.

[rleader]

^ and on top of that, there's nothing stopping them from putting goyf as a fnm foil, judge foil, throwing it in duel decks or arch enemy, etc. Except their will to keep it as an investment worthy card, as none of those above things would affect the standard environment. And of course, you can change goyf to anything else that's expensive but not on the reserve list.

Hell, if they wanted EVERYONE to show up for extended every friday night, they could have just passed out boxes of shocklands and said, hey, go out and get the other cards you needed.

[ktkenshinx]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/441

4th turn Terastadon more overpowered than 4th turn Emrakul? Hmm....
This is a ridiculous comparison. Polymorph is kept in check by the rampant Bolts and Paths that can easily kill a Poly target in response to its casting. Add in countermagic and the presence of Jace and his Unsummon and you have a deck (Polymorph) that is not poised to dominate. The only way to stop NO in Standard would be to Negate, Deprive, or Cancel it. Jund couldn't do anything, and even after the rotation, the aggro decks of the future would be pretty screwed.

In a Legacy that isn't bound by the reserve list there'd still be expensive cards. Extended wasn't popular because it was expensive... now, why would overextended be less expensive than the current extended? A lot of the costs is with cards like Tarmogoyf and fetches, cards that aren't on the reserve list. In Legacy there are competitive decks you can play without cards that are on the reserve list that cost more than 30 bucks. It's not as if the format is inaccessable. It's expensive, but current Extended is expensive as well. Is there a difference between expensive and expensive?
During the height of extended, Ravnica shocklands hit at most 20 dollars if you got a bad deal. Most were in the 15-10 dollar range. Fetchlands are expensive because, well, they are awesome and used in every format that has them legal. As to other staples like Depths and Goyf, those are two cards that proved to be expensive given a combination of multi-format demand, dominance, and print runs. But what about Hypergenesis, Scapeshift, and Living End? These were highly viable decks that did not cost much money. Same goes for Sword of the Meek and Thopter Foundry (admittedly uncommons).
So yes, there IS a difference between expensive and expensive. Legacy is in the latter category, featuring cards that will basically never go down in price, unless Wizards can introduce more of them or slow down demand (Read: Duals).
A new format would not have this problem, especially if Wizards did the intelligent thing and included Shocklands in a reprint-staple set to boost format popularity.

The price of Legacy WILL be a determent to the format: the creation of overextended may help alleviate some of that by driving down demand for duals.
On an earlier Overextended thread on this forum, I posted a set of graphs showing the dual land prices over time. They have steadily risen at a rate that would make any stock investor wet himself. Sadly, we are not stock investors, but Magic card players, and the meteoric and continual rise of Dual prices is going to become a problem, even if it is not already a problem. Legacy's growth is going to be impeded by this, unless Wizards can, as Drago suggests, introduce a dam, so to speak.

A new format, especially one that replaced the ailing Vintage, would split the Eternal Crowd and thus the Eternal card demand. Some cards would be played in both formats, and thus would take a price rise OR stay the same (Path to Exile, Noble Hierarch, Knight, Goyf, Zendikar fetches, etc.). But for the most part, prices of critical Legacy staples on the Reserve List would probably go down or at least stabilize. That is good for this format's health.


As far as reprints go, do you honestly have any proof to back up your claims that WotC is simply waiting for the right time to reprint any of the stuff from older sets that isn't on the reserved list. Because some of that stuff is simply put, O.P. and I doubt they will ever be stupid enough to reprint it, reprint policy or no.
There are two categories of reprintable cards here.

1. Legacy staples not on the Reserve List
That means FoW, Wasteland, Natural Order, fetchlands, etc (but mostly the first 2).

2. Future 'staples' of a new format
Shocklands, fetchlands, Rishadan Port, Misdirection, etc. It's speculative as to what decks will be good, but it's a safe bet as to what cards will be good.

The cards in the first category are, in my opinion, unlikely to be printed. They obviously cannot be reprinted in Standard or Extended legal sets, because they are totally format-warping. In many cases, they have been acceptable revised to reflect modern game design. For instance, Wasteland is now Dust Bowl and Tectonic Edge. Force of Will is now Foil, Thwart, Pact of Negation, and Commandeer. Wizards is not going to bring these back in a main set, and the thought of that is laughable.
Now, this does not exclude the possibility of FTV and Master's/Premium set reprints. While this is more possible, it is also unlikely. The only purpose of such sets would be to promote Legacy, a move that I just don't see Wizards doing. Pushing FoW and Wasteland basically pushes all of the Reserve List cards that Wizards just wants to go away; helping Legacy players enter the format drives up demand for the other, non reprintable Legacy staples.

But the second category of cards, the future staples, are far more likely to be reprinted. Some people have suggested that Wizards would do this for economic reasons, as a means to influence the secondary market. I urge you to avoid this line of thinking. Rather, you should consider the following:

Wizards could/should reprint Over Extended staples as part of a premium deck/FTV set designed to promote their new format, NOT to lower prices.

This would be an excellent way to bring players back into the game who have been MIA for a few years, and an excellent way to attract new players. There are many ways that this could work, whether printing special booster packs that have a rare and some other cards that Wizards thinks will be staples, or a fixed card list for a product. Whatever their method, Wizards would succeed in bringing positive press to their new format, increasing THEIR sales (not secondary market ones), and funnel players into a secondary Eternal format that is not the Reserve-List-Plagued Legacy.

Over Extended WILL happen, even if not this year or next year. It is the clear and logical progression of Eternal formats and modern Magic, and if it does not yet have the support base, it will soon.

-ktkenshinx-

[DalkonCledwin]

I fail to see how you can logically argue an opinion that over extended will happen. All we have to go on is an unfounded rumor, and a change to a format that was completely warranted for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the alleged new format that you guys keep championing. Extended needed these changes to become a viable format in modern magic outside of just a seasonal PTQ format that barely anyone played in.

[edgewalker]

I fail to see how you can logically argue an opinion that over extended will happen. All we have to go on is an unfounded rumor, and a change to a format that was completely warranted for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the alleged new format that you guys keep championing. Extended needed these changes to become a viable format in modern magic outside of just a seasonal PTQ format that barely anyone played in.

Thank You, a thousand times, thank you. Overextended was the rumor then and it's still a rumor now. We're no better talking about banning speculation then when we talk about over extended. Jesus, you all sound like the high school kid who is too afraid to ask the girl out because he's not sure if she likes him or not. You don't know anything until you ask her, or in this case, until they make an official statement.

[DragoFireheart]

I fail to see how you can logically argue an opinion that over extended will happen. All we have to go on is an unfounded rumor, and a change to a format that was completely warranted for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the alleged new format that you guys keep championing. Extended needed these changes to become a viable format in modern magic outside of just a seasonal PTQ format that barely anyone played in.


Extended was adjusted so that the transition from standard to extended to overextended to legacy would be much easier than simply standard, extended and then the huge jump to Legacy


Furthermore, if you truly believe Wotc will not make a eternal format that is not restricted by the reserved list and Legacy continues to grow as it is, then you can kiss Legacy goodbye and watch it go the route Vintage went.



On an earlier Overextended thread on this forum, I posted a set of graphs showing the dual land prices over time. They have steadily risen at a rate that would make any stock investor wet himself. Sadly, we are not stock investors, but Magic card players, and the meteoric and continual rise of Dual prices is going to become a problem, even if it is not already a problem. Legacy's growth is going to be impeded by this, unless Wizards can, as Drago suggests, introduce a dam, so to speak.

A new format, especially one that replaced the ailing Vintage, would split the Eternal Crowd and thus the Eternal card demand. Some cards would be played in both formats, and thus would take a price rise OR stay the same (Path to Exile, Noble Hierarch, Knight, Goyf, Zendikar fetches, etc.). But for the most part, prices of critical Legacy staples on the Reserve List would probably go down or at least stabilize. That is good for this format's health.


If the dual lands are like stocks, then it's possible to assume that the demand will exceed the supply, which at some point will cause the following:


1) Prices of duals go up.
2) Players will lose interest due to outrageous prices.
3) Attendance to Legacy events will drop, leaving only those that do have duals.
4) Legacy stagnates (player count) and loses popularity.
5) Start at 1 and repeat.

Some people argue that cost is not prohibitory for Legacy, but those people are fooling themselves. If WotC cares about Legacy, they will make overextended.

[workingdude]

If the dual lands are like stocks, then it's possible to assume that the demand will exceed the supply, which at some point will cause the following:


1) Prices of duals go up.
2) Players will lose interest due to outrageous prices.
3) Attendance to Legacy events will drop, leaving only those that do have duals.
4) Legacy stagnates (player count) and loses popularity.
5) Start at 1 and repeat.

Some people argue that cost is not prohibitory for Legacy, but those people are fooling themselves. If WotC cares about Legacy, they will make overextended.

Is the new eternal going to make Legacy attendance increase? Is 'overextended' going to make Legacy grow and gain popularity?

[DalkonCledwin]

I would like to remind you Drago, that the Original Dual Lands are absolutely NOT required to play Legacy.

[ktkenshinx]

Is the new eternal going to make Legacy attendance increase? Is 'overextended' going to make Legacy grow and gain popularity?
Here's the potential Wizards model behind the New Eternal format and its effect on Legacy.

1. Wizards announces the New format as an Eternal Format between Extended and Legacy.
2. Vintage format is either marginalized even further or outright removed from sanctioned play.
3. Wizards announces PTQ and FNM schedule for new format.
4. A portion of Legacy players who have not fully invested in Legacy staples move to the new format, whether for financial reasons or to enjoy a new experience.
5. A large portion of prospective Legacy players, given the choice between the two formats and the necessary monetary investments in one versus the other, choose to enter the new format as opposed to Legacy.
6. The Legacy boom that has been happening for the last year or so slows down or even halts altogether, with new players split between the new eternal format and Legacy.
7. Legacy card prices calm down for a while. Some might even decrease, with speculators selling for fear of the new format's effects on their cards.
8. With Legacy prices more stable and regulated by a secondary, popular eternal format (as opposed to the incredibly undersupported Vintage format), the players who want to enter Legacy will have an easier time doing so.

Now, I understand that there are a million 8+ point charts that anyone here could make that refute this one. There are also countless possibilities that could confound this model and produce a different outcome. But this is something that could definitely happen if Wizards plays their proverbial cards right in relation to the new format.

Would attendance to Legacy events actually increase? Probably not. But it would definitely have a better future than it currently does.

I would like to remind you Drago, that the Original Dual Lands are absolutely NOT required to play Legacy.
That's about as true as saying that you can play blue in Standard without Jace the Mind Sculptor. You are right in the literal sense, but not in the practical and applied senses.

Look at the current DTB section on this very site:
1. ANT: 4 Underground Sea
2. Merfolk: If you aren't using the Goyf or +W version, then none. Otherwise, requires 4 of the respective kind (Tundra/Trop)
3. CounterTop: Consistently 6+ duals.
4. Reanimator: 4 Underground Sea
5. New Horizons: Boddy's list from SCG Seattle used 6. Both lists from SCG Philly also used 6 each.
6. Zoo: Elias's list used 6 at SCG Philly, as did all other Zoo players in that event.

That's a lot of duals. If you want to play a consistently victorious deck in Legacy, you really need to have access to duals. There are good decks that don't use a lot of them, but the best decks definitely require them.

Future impact of the dual-demand? As more players want to play decks with duals, more duals will be bought and fewer will exist in the general supply. The result is a lack of duals in circulation, and rising prices (moreso than they already are, which is considerable).

Thank You, a thousand times, thank you. Overextended was the rumor then and it's still a rumor now. We're no better talking about banning speculation then when we talk about over extended. Jesus, you all sound like the high school kid who is too afraid to ask the girl out because he's not sure if she likes him or not. You don't know anything until you ask her, or in this case, until they make an official statement.
That's an incredibly bad comparison. A better one: OverExtended supporters are like the old Legacy crowd from pre-2004 who clamored for a separation of the Vintage B/R list and the Legacy one. Wizards listened. Their employees read these boards and listen to their players, and debate/conversation like this can expose both problems and benefits of a new Eternal format from MM onwards. Who better to consult than the Legacy players themselves? That's how Wizards might very well view it, and we should not be hesitant to oblige their curiosity.

-ktkenshinx-

[edgewalker]

That's an incredibly bad comparison. A better one: OverExtended supporters are like the old Legacy crowd from pre-2004 who clamored for a separation of the Vintage B/R list and the Legacy one. Wizards listened. Their employees read these boards and listen to their players, and debate/conversation like this can expose both problems and benefits of a new Eternal format from MM onwards. Who better to consult than the Legacy players themselves? That's how Wizards might very well view it, and we should not be hesitant to oblige their curiosity.

-ktkenshinx-

This is so untrue. If this were the case, a lot of major changes that have occured throughout magic's history would NOT have happened.

[DalkonCledwin]

Here's the potential Wizards model behind the New Eternal format and its effect on Legacy.

1. Wizards announces the New format as an Eternal Format between Extended and Legacy.
2. Vintage format is either marginalized even further or outright removed from sanctioned play.
3. Wizards announces PTQ and FNM schedule for new format.
4. A portion of Legacy players who have not fully invested in Legacy staples move to the new format, whether for financial reasons or to enjoy a new experience.
5. A large portion of prospective Legacy players, given the choice between the two formats and the necessary monetary investments in one versus the other, choose to enter the new format as opposed to Legacy.
6. The Legacy boom that has been happening for the last year or so slows down or even halts altogether, with new players split between the new eternal format and Legacy.
7. Legacy card prices calm down for a while. Some might even decrease, with speculators selling for fear of the new format's effects on their cards.
8. With Legacy prices more stable and regulated by a secondary, popular eternal format (as opposed to the incredibly undersupported Vintage format), the players who want to enter Legacy will have an easier time doing so.

Now, I understand that there are a million 8+ point charts that anyone here could make that refute this one. There are also countless possibilities that could confound this model and produce a different outcome. But this is something that could definitely happen if Wizards plays their proverbial cards right in relation to the new format.

Would attendance to Legacy events actually increase? Probably not. But it would definitely have a better future than it currently does.

I hate to tell you this, but your entire platform that you just described would flat line the collections of just about every collector with cards from the reserved list in it due the nature of how you are describing this. This is because the people who invested in these cards would be nearly unable or completely unable to get rid of the cards in the event of this new formats creation as everyone who matters already has these cards, and those who don't have them no longer want them. As such, the entire point of having the reserved list be reinforced in the first place becomes null & void.

Counterintuitive much? I think so.


That's about as true as saying that you can play blue in Standard without Jace the Mind Sculptor. You are right in the literal sense, but not in the practical and applied senses.

Look at the current DTB section on this very site:
1. ANT: 4 Underground Sea
2. Merfolk: If you aren't using the Goyf or +W version, then none. Otherwise, requires 4 of the respective kind (Tundra/Trop)
3. CounterTop: Consistently 6+ duals.
4. Reanimator: 4 Underground Sea
5. New Horizons: Boddy's list from SCG Seattle used 6. Both lists from SCG Philly also used 6 each.
6. Zoo: Elias's list used 6 at SCG Philly, as did all other Zoo players in that event.

That's a lot of duals. If you want to play a consistently victorious deck in Legacy, you really need to have access to duals. There are good decks that don't use a lot of them, but the best decks definitely require them.

Bear in mind that two of those decks will no longer be Decks to Beat as of July First, at least in theory. And just because you listed the Decks to Beat of the current meta, does not mean that any of those will be the decks to beat of the July First and forward Meta (with the possible exception of Zoo). Simply put, that is a biased way to look at things.


Future impact of the dual-demand? As more players want to play decks with duals, more duals will be bought and fewer will exist in the general supply. The result is a lack of duals in circulation, and rising prices (moreso than they already are, which is considerable).

True, but keep in mind that once you have your duals you no longer need any. Additionally I have seen extremely successful legacy decks utilizing the Ravnica Duals which helps lower the barrier to entry as well.

[DragoFireheart]

I would like to remind you Drago, that the Original Dual Lands are absolutely NOT required to play Legacy.


I would like to remind you that Power 9 is NOT required to play Vintage.

[DalkonCledwin]

I would like to remind you that Power 9 is NOT required to play Vintage.

that is a poor comparison not to mention probably a falacy of some sort.

There are numerous viable and highly competitive decks that do not use a single original dual land in Legacy. On the other hand I can't think of a single highly competitive deck within vintage that does not use the power 9. I am sure there is possibly ONE, but I don't know what it is.

[DragoFireheart]

I hate to tell you this, but your entire platform that you just described would flat line the collections of just about every collector with cards from the reserved list in it due the nature of how you are describing this. This is because the people who invested in these cards would be nearly unable or completely unable to get rid of the cards in the event of this new formats creation as everyone who matters already has these cards, and those who don't have them no longer want them. As such, the entire point of having the reserved list be reinforced in the first place becomes null & void.

Counterintuitive much? I think so.



Because no one will ever want to try and invest in Legacy after the creation of overextended. Yup, that's a nice crystal ball you got there.

You missed the entire point of his post. He wasn't stating that overextended will cause the price of duals to crash, but to cause them to level out so there isn't such a high demand for a limited card supply.

If nothing is done to Legacy, the prices of duals WILL crash at some point once they become too expensive.

[DragoFireheart]

that is a poor comparison not to mention probably a falacy of some sort.

That's actually a very good comparison.



There are numerous viable and highly competitive decks that do not use a single original dual land in Legacy.

Name one beyond Merfolk that is Tier 1.




On the other hand I can't think of a single highly competitive deck within vintage that does not use the power 9. I am sure there is possibly ONE, but I don't know what it is.

That's because Vintage tournaments are dead relatively.

[DalkonCledwin]

Because no one will ever want to try and invest in Legacy after the creation of overextended. Yup, that's a nice crystal ball you got there.

You missed the entire point of his post. He wasn't stating that overextended will cause the price of duals to crash, but to cause them to level out so there isn't such a high demand for a limited card supply.

If nothing is done to Legacy, the prices of duals WILL crash at some point once they become too expensive.

that... depends enirely on how or if over extended is implemented. If it is done by a mass banning of cards within legacy itself. Then yes, it will cause the prices of cards in Legacy to plummet like rocks thrown off the side of the Empire State Building.

If however it is done to be a suplement to Legacy and Vintage, not to replace them outright, and it is campaigned as such, as well as the tournaments for both Vintage and Legacy continue to garner support from the DCI and WPN, then no prices will not plummet.

All told it is all dependent on how WotC approaches a hypothetical (and yes, it is still only a hypothetical at this point) new format.

EDIT: Merfolk is not always a mono-color deck. In fact I think Mono-Blue Merfolk isn't even Tier 1 anymore. I think it would be a better task to name decks that are currently Tier 1.5, but poised to become better than that once July First rolls along due to the banning that just occurred. One such deck is Death and Taxes. That deck is by far majority a mono-white deck, and it is 90 to 100% off the reserved list. Further it is one of the few decks that absolutely gains momentum by the July First Ban List update.

Vintage Tournaments still occur, they just happen to be unsanctioned in most places. However there is an annual Vintage Sanctioned Championship that I am aware of held in the United States at Gen Con, or at least it had been occurring up til recently.

EDIT2: I also find it exceedingly hard to believe that WotC would screw Legacy over this badly (by creating a new competing eternal format) this close to the official release of Legacy as a tournament format on Magic Online. It seems counter intuitive.

[DragoFireheart]

that... depends enirely on how or if over extended is implemented. If it is done by a mass banning of cards within legacy itself. Then yes, it will cause the prices of cards in Legacy to plummet like rocks thrown off the side of the Empire State Building.

Overextended is going to be a different format. Nothing is being done to Legacy directly.




EDIT: Merfolk is not always a mono-color deck. In fact I think Mono-Blue Merfolk isn't even Tier 1 anymore. I think it would be a better task to name decks that are currently Tier 1.5, but poised to become better than that once July First rolls along due to the banning that just occurred. One such deck is Death and Taxes. That deck is by far majority a mono-white deck, and it is 90 to 100% off the reserved list. Further it is one of the few decks that absolutely gains momentum by the July First Ban List update.


Seriously? Death and Taxes?

I get the feeling that you aren't even reading my posts at all and are simply posting your opinion regardless of what facts or opinions are present.

[denial]

Overextended is going to be a different format.

Shouldnt you have any of the following somewhere in that sentennce:

"I think",
"may be",
"will possibly",
or
"but is still hypothetical".

[DalkonCledwin]

Overextended is going to be a different format. Nothing is being done to Legacy directly.

And your proof for this statement comes from what exactly?

I am going to ignore the rest of your response until you actually provide something factual that is worth responding to.

[DragoFireheart]

Shouldnt you have any of the following somewhere in that sentennce:

"I think",
"may be",
"will possibly",
or
"but is still hypothetical".

If wizards does decide to gut Legacy considering it's popularity and the fact that it still recognizes it as a separate format, then they are incredibility stupid.

I find it to be quite the leap of faith to even believe that Wizards is that stupid in that regard.






And your proof for this statement comes from what exactly?

The fact that Legacy is so popular and WoTC still recognizes it as it's own format ala bannings and unbannings.

Edit: And common sense.





I am going to ignore the rest of your response until you actually provide something factual that is worth responding to.

I really wish you could do what you claim I should do: post something factual. For someone that thinks Death and Taxes is a tier 1.5 deck, you sure are quite high on your horse to even suggest that you posted anything worth responding to while also claiming I haven't. You haven't even shown anything to suggest that Death and Taxes is even viable, never mind Tier 1.5, so before going around and trying to discredit others, you might want to make sure your own facts are indeed facts and not just delusional opinions.

[DalkonCledwin]

I really wish you could do what you claim I should do: post something factual. For someone that thinks Death and Taxes is a tier 1.5 deck, you sure are quite high on your horse to even suggest that you posted anything worth responding to while also claiming I haven't. You haven't even shown anything to suggest that Death and Taxes is even viable, never mind Tier 1.5, so before going around and trying to discredit others, you might want to make sure your own facts are indeed facts and not just delusional opinions.

Have you even been paying attention to the decks that have been winning tournaments within the Legacy Format on Magic Online ever since Legacy became available on Magic Online?

I will give you a big hint, for about the first month or two possibly longer, at least 10 to 25% of the meta, and at least 1 sometimes 2 of the 3-1 and 4-0 decks in a given daily had been Death and Taxes builds.

Now that the meta has been shifted more heavily towards Landstill (one of death and taxes worst matchups, but not unwinnable for a well built death and taxes deck) the decks haven't been placing as highly. However as people become aware of landstills weaknesses death and taxes will become prevalent again. In essence, Death and Taxes was a hugely popular deck on magic online when legacy first was released, it is still played quite heavily by several people, and these people are all quite skilled and capable of getting surprising results with the deck.

Further, it is one of the decks to have gained heavily from the loss of Mystical Tutor from the format as the deck is able to very easily take advantage of that loss and win games because of it. I would say that even if Death and Taxes is not Tier 1.5 right now, it will be that or better come July first 2010.

[DragoFireheart]

Have you even been paying attention to the decks that have been winning tournaments within the Legacy Format on Magic Online ever since Legacy became available on Magic Online?

I will give you a big hint, for about the first month or two possibly longer, at least 10 to 25% of the meta, and at least 1 sometimes 2 of the 3-1 and 4-0 decks in a given daily had been Death and Taxes builds.

Now that the meta has been shifted more heavily towards Landstill (one of death and taxes worst matchups, but not unwinnable for a well built death and taxes deck) the decks haven't been placing as highly. However as people become aware of landstills weaknesses death and taxes will become prevalent again. In essence, Death and Taxes was a hugely popular deck on magic online when legacy first was released, it is still played quite heavily by several people, and these people are all quite skilled and capable of getting surprising results with the deck.

Further, was one of the very decks that gained heavily from the loss of Mystical Tutor from the format as the deck is able to very easily take advantage of that loss and win games because of it. I would say that even if Death and Taxes is not Tier 1.5 right now, it will be that or better come July first 2010.


Guess what: I don't care about MTGO. We're talking about the paper format and how overextended would affect it.

I also like how you STILL didn't post any links. Are you done digging yourself a hole?

[DalkonCledwin]

Guess what: I don't care about MTGO. We're talking about the paper format and how overextended would affect it.

I also like how you STILL didn't post any links. Are you done digging yourself a hole?

LINK HERE NAO (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Archive.aspx?tag=Decks%20of%20the%20Week&description=Decks%20of%20the%20Week)

Okay read all the legacy deck lists in each of the sections dated from 4/8/2010 to 6/17/2010. From what I understand the list will be updated sometime after midnight PST tonight with the most recent entry and I think that some new Death and Taxes builds will be included in the most recent entries for legacy lists in that update.

Yes I have proof, do you care to provide any?

EDIT: I would also like to point out that a new format would affect Magic Online just as much as it would affect paper. So not discussing the ramifications in both forms of playing magic is simply put: ignorant.

[DragoFireheart]

LINK HERE NAO (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Archive.aspx?tag=Decks%20of%20the%20Week&description=Decks%20of%20the%20Week)

Okay read all the legacy deck lists in each of the sections dated from 4/8/2010 to 6/17/2010. From what I understand the list will be updated sometime after midnight PST tonight with the most recent entry and I think that some new Death and Taxes builds will be included in the most recent entries for legacy lists in that update.


...
Edit: Taking a second look.





Yes I have proof, do you care to provide any?

Edit: taking a second look.


And my proof that overextended won't be replacing Legacy? Hmm, gee, considering that the rumors said nothing about replacing Legacy and WoTC doing so makes little sense (considering they banned Mystical Tutor to "help" keep combo in check, promoting a healthier format in their eyes), that there is all the proof needed: a little bit of common sense and observaing WoTC actions. On the other hand, me and a few others have gone over what could happen if overextended is a third eternal format.




And even if this overextended were to hypothetically replace Legacy, I don't give a shit: that isn't what I am talking about.




Whether WotC will actually follow through with this new format I can't say 100% for sure, but if they don't Legacy will die from over-costed duals. That much is certain.

http://www.findmagiccards.com/Cards/RV/Tropical_Island.html

That shows the rising price of tropical island (revised). Within the span of 6 years, it quadrupled in value. Do you think Legacy will have a future if duals are double that average in the next 6 years?

If WoTC doesn't do something, Legacy will die. Overextended is a possible solution and I believe they want it to help Legacy stay a popular format without it also suffocating from expensive dual lands.

[DalkonCledwin]

did you even look for any of the death and taxes builds? or do you have a pre-defined notion of what constitutes as a death and taxes build?

The MTGO Player by the name of La_Keka went with a 3-1 record on 5/24/2010 with the following deck:

LANDS
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
11 Plains
3 Wasteland

4 Benevolent Bodyguard
3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Flickerwisp
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic

SPELLS:
4 Æther Vial
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
1 Aura of Silence
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Silence
2 Tariff
2 Tivadar of Thorn

Similarly on the same day Jarhorsk went 3-1 with his own list.

TheBizzar went 3-1 on 5/20/2010 with a green and white D&T build.

On 5/18/2010 I went 3-1 with my own build. On the same day Blazelix went 3-1. and Boin went 3-1.

On 5/17 I went 3-1 again with a very similar build. And in another tourney on the same day Gainsbanding went 3-1 as did Blazelix.

These are the most recent placings within a given week that are recorded on that site for Death and Taxes. However, I know for a fact that Blazelix has continued to play with the deck, and I am 99% sure that a friend of his mentioned his going 3-1 or better in a daily recently. Additionally almost every week prior to the one I just described above people were placing with death and taxes virtually every week on MTGO since the release of legacy into the program.

also don't use findmagiccards.com to quote prices. It is hardly the most reliable source. Blacklotusproject is better by far for doing that.

[ktkenshinx]

I hate to tell you this, but your entire platform that you just described would flat line the collections of just about every collector with cards from the reserved list in it due the nature of how you are describing this. This is because the people who invested in these cards would be nearly unable or completely unable to get rid of the cards in the event of this new formats creation as everyone who matters already has these cards, and those who don't have them no longer want them. As such, the entire point of having the reserved list be reinforced in the first place becomes null & void.

Counterintuitive much? I think so.
Wizards has no responsibility in this regard. They promised never to reprint the cards, not to preserve formats or decks. To suggest that they do have such an obligation is absurd, both from a legal and a practical standpoint. Wizards keeps up their end of the bargain and does not alienate the collectors directly, even if their format making indirectly does so; it's just beyond their care.

that... depends enirely on how or if over extended is implemented. If it is done by a mass banning of cards within legacy itself. Then yes, it will cause the prices of cards in Legacy to plummet like rocks thrown off the side of the Empire State Building.

If however it is done to be a suplement to Legacy and Vintage, not to replace them outright, and it is campaigned as such, as well as the tournaments for both Vintage and Legacy continue to garner support from the DCI and WPN, then no prices will not plummet.

All told it is all dependent on how WotC approaches a hypothetical (and yes, it is still only a hypothetical at this point) new format.
I have been explaining it this way for many posts on many threads in many forums. Killing Legacy in any way, whether through bannings or through marginilization, is a bad idea no mater how you look at it. Wizards must realize that, and if they do not, then it is our job as players in that format to inform them. The quote that I said remains: a new eternal format does not supplant Legacy, it supplements it.
(Vintage is the exception to this, because that is a truly ailing format that does not need to have continued support in any official capacity. Events can happen, but not through official channels).

A lot of argument here is devolving into semantics. There is no reason to argue about the rising price of duals. They are rising. Period. They will continue to rise over the years just by the natural growth of a format and the necessary increase in card prices.

Does this demand a new format? Maybe, maybe not. Some evidence says yes, and other evidence says no. I personally think yes, and I have given my reasons to that effect. As far as evidence goes, I will happily provide any evidence to support any of the points that I have made. This includes the rising price of staples, the direction of those trends, the necessary format modifications and their precedent, and anything else.

In general, this thread should remain on track and on the topic of the format, the arguments for and against it, and the possible methods that Wizards could implement it.

-ktkenshinx-

[DragoFireheart]

did you even look for any of the death and taxes builds? or do you have a pre-defined notion of what constitutes as a death and taxes build?

The MTGO Player by the name of La_Keka went with a 3-1 record on 5/24/2010 with the following deck:


Please post a direct link to each deck. If you are posting proof, don't make others dig through your proof. It's rude and annoying.





also don't use findmagiccards.com to quote prices. It is hardly the most reliable source. Blacklotusproject is better by far for doing that.

Yet again you miss the point again. Also, can your site show how much Tropical island was 6 years ago?


Do you acknowledge that Legacy isn't sustainable?

[DalkonCledwin]

Please post a direct link to each deck. If you are posting proof, don't make others dig through your proof. It's rude and annoying.





Yet again you miss the point again. Also, can your site show how much Tropical island was 6 years ago?

Are you going to acknowledge that Legacy isn't sustainable or not?

I can't post a direct link to each deck because each deck is listed with at least 10 other decks. You will have to go to each days page and look for the decks yourself. The best I can do is post a link to each of the daily events that has at least one death and taxes list with a record of 3-1 or better. However that would be an extensive number of links due to the fact that there are at least 30 to 40 days worth of events with such deck lists. If not more.

Unfortunately black lotus project does not go back 6 years. However its data is in fact far more reliable as far as pricing than findmagiccards is. And if you want to go that far back I am sure there are better sources out there than findmagiccards anyways.

[DragoFireheart]

I can't post a direct link to each deck because each deck is listed with at least 10 other decks. You will have to go to each days page and look for the decks yourself. The best I can do is post a link to each of the daily events that has at least one death and taxes list with a record of 3-1 or better. However that would be an extensive number of links due to the fact that there are at least 30 to 40 days worth of events with such deck lists. If not more.

Just post the links to the ones where DnT decks made up at least 25% of the Top 8 then.




Unfortunately black lotus project does not go back 6 years. However its data is in fact far more reliable as far as pricing than findmagiccards is. And if you want to go that far back I am sure there are better sources out there than findmagiccards anyways.

Sigh, you continue to miss the point. I don't care about which site is more accruate by 5 dollars or so: the point is Legacy prices of duals are going up and have continued to spike since Legacy became more popular.

Do you acknowledge that Legacy is unsustainable as it is now?

[DalkonCledwin]

Just post the links to the ones where DnT decks made up at least 25% of the Top 8 then.




Sigh, you continue to miss the point. I don't care about which site is more accruate by 5 dollars or so: the point is Legacy prices of duals are going up and have continued to spike since Legacy became more popular.

Do you acknowledge that Legacy is unsustainable as it is now?

Daily Events on MTGO don't have top-8's. They are four rounds of swiss, whoever has the highest tie breakers as well as win records is considered the winners. Anyone with a 3-1 or 4-0 record gets their deck list posted on the official Wizards of the Coast website. Additionally anyone with said record recieves prize payout.

The only events on MTGO with top-8's are the priemier events, and legacy events that are considered priemer events are a great deal rarer (I only know of one or two that have fired since the inception of Legacy on MTGO despite there being queues for them every day). As such getting reasonable results from said events would be next to impossible. At least results that mean anything.

I would have to see price projections from numerous reputable sites determining the trend that legacy staples are likely to follow over the next 2 or 3 years before I could reasonably make any conclusion about whether or not legacy is or is not sustainable at the current time or in the long run.

EDITING IN DATA:

Since you seem hell bent on seeing said list here is the a list. The following tournaments all have 30 or more participants. Additionally in each of these tournaments Death and Taxes has at least one listing in the 3-1 or better bracket:

4/07/2010 (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1085604)
4/08/2010 (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1109405)
4/08/2010 event #2 (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1109406)
4/13/2010 (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1109413)
4/16/2010 (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1133504)
4/22/2010 (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1154847)
4/25/2010 (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1154851)

There haven't really been any daily events since the 25th that have reached 30 participants on MTGO that have been published as of yet.

In the Legacy Priemier event on 4/18/2010 a Death and Taxes deck got 6th Place out of 33 participants link here (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1133674)

The reason that there aren't 30 to 40 days worth of pages listed here is because I cut everything other than the days that had 30 or more participants. It should be noted however that this is 8 tournaments out of approximately 83 tournaments (allow for margin of error as the program that lists the tournaments and deck lists has a habbit of duplicating events from the ends of a week at the start of the next week). That comes to approximately 9% of the total tournaments that had at least one death and taxes deck in their high placement. That percentage will go up because occassionally death and taxes placed twice or sometimes three times in a given tournament. However when you think that legacy has only been on MTGO for approximately 2 and a half months, it would seem to me that a minimum 9% presence of death and taxes in the field over that time, is at the least fairly significant. And what I initially said about Death and Taxes was indeed correct, I said it was 10 to 25%. Nine can be rounded to the next even number which is 10, and even without rounding if you take into account the times when more than one death and taxes place, then you have 10% at the least.

The interesting thing to note however, is that the Magic Online Championship Series (the largest Priemier Events on Magic Online aside from Pro Tour Qualifiers) is just starting it's season seven now. And the Season 7 Championship is scheduled to be in the Legacy Format.

And I would also like to suggest that we do get back onto topic, as we have been sidetracked long enough. The topic at hand is that without proof that the new format is coming, and I mean SIGNIFICANT proof. I see no reason to argue that it is indeed coming. And unfortunately there is no significant proof that a new format is coming. All you guys have is speculation and conjecture about things that have happened, are happening, and why you think Wizards should do something about it.

[DragoFireheart]

Like I said, I don't care about DnT since it's on MTGO and Wizards has full control over the card quanity for their online game.

DnT is not a tier 1 or 1.5 in the paper version, which is all that matters for this discussion. Otherwise, you would have showings for the paper version.



The topic at hand is that without proof that the new format is coming, and I mean SIGNIFICANT proof. I see no reason to argue that it is indeed coming. And unfortunately there is no significant proof that a new format is coming. All you guys have is speculation and conjecture about things that have happened, are happening, and why you think Wizards should do something about it.


If you believe there is no proof and there won't be a third eternal format, then you must believe Legacy is going to die off due to dual land prices. The major problems with Legacy:

1- The dual lands are in limited supply, while the popularity of Legacy increases, which means not everyone is going to be able to get the duals they want.

2- Since the duals are on the reserved list, WoTC can not reprint them without starting a shit storm with collectors and anyone else banking on duals being valuable as a result of their scarcity.

3- There is no other eternal format that can take off some of the load of the growing popularity (and cost) of Legacy. Vintage is dead and just as, if not more so, expensive.





I'll now ask you for the third time...

Do you acknowledge that Legacy is unsustainable as it is now?

[MMogg]

Do you acknowledge that Legacy is unsustainable as it is now?

I'm curious what that even means. Sustainable for how long? Forever? 100 years? 30 years? 10 years?

I know you don't care about MTGO, but actually, MTGO is a good example in that even though the format is in its infancy online, people are still willing to play it. I have seen people take cost-cutting measures because they lack certain cards, especially in their mana base. I see no reason why we should doubt its [Legacy's, not just MTGO] sustainability in the short term, and you haven't really shown us any long-term time frame.

People like to talk about how Vintage is dead, but tournaments still happen, especially side events at larger tournaments. Also, proxy tournaments happen. If Vintage can survive, I don't see why Legacy can't, particularly when the bar for entry is less than Vintage. There are many areas around America (and, indeed, the world) that have little to no Legacy community to speak of, and where Legacy tournaments are populated by rogue decks, homebrews and decks with holes missing as people make due with tier 2 substitutions. That's par for the course. Does that mean Legacy, at this moment in time, is moribund? I don't think so. In my home town, even Standard tournaments had meager turnouts and were not full of tier one decks. My point is, talking about sustainability is difficult if you don't give more of a description of in which way you consider something sustainable.

[ryO!]

Like I said, I don't care about DnT since it's on MTGO and Wizards has full control over the card quanity for their online game.

DnT is not a tier 1 or 1.5 in the paper version, which is all that matters for this discussion. Otherwise, you would have showings for the paper version.





If you believe there is no proof and there won't be a third eternal format, then you must believe Legacy is going to die off due to dual land prices. The major problems with Legacy:

1- The dual lands are in limited supply, while the popularity of Legacy increases, which means not everyone is going to be able to get the duals they want.

2- Since the duals are on the reserved list, WoTC can not reprint them without starting a shit storm with collectors and anyone else banking on duals being valuable as a result of their scarcity.

3- There is no other eternal format that can take off some of the load of the growing popularity (and cost) of Legacy. Vintage is dead and just as, if not more so, expensive.





I'll now ask you for the third time...

Do you acknowledge that Legacy is unsustainable as it is now?

legacy is far from being unsustainable as it is now.
The duals are in limited supply yet there are TONS out and it s still not hard to find duals, like at all. Expensive ? sure baneslayer is 40$, JTMS is 80$, Elspetch is 50$.
There are decks in all tiers that can live AND WIN (tournament wise) without duals.
If overextended finally come out shit(shock)land won't remain that low, such as any new staple that ll rise, and all in all if that new format has any sucess - which i doubt - prices will still drastically increase just like in T2 & Legacy.
So your statements are just pointless.
and btw vintage isn't dead.
got your answer ?

[DragoFireheart]

I'm curious what that even means. Sustainable for how long? Forever? 100 years? 30 years? 10 years?

I know you don't care about MTGO, but actually, MTGO is a good example in that even though the format is in its infancy online, people are still willing to play it. I have seen people take cost-cutting measures because they lack certain cards, especially in their mana base. I see no reason why we should doubt its [Legacy's, not just MTGO] sustainability in the short term, and you haven't really shown us any long-term time frame.


Well, this is one player who won't be playing online if thats the route Legacy is heading.





People like to talk about how Vintage is dead, but tournaments still happen, especially side events at larger tournaments. Also, proxy tournaments happen. If Vintage can survive, I don't see why Legacy can't, particularly when the bar for entry is less than Vintage.


I don't care if Vintage is surviving: it's not thriving.




There are many areas around America (and, indeed, the world) that have little to no Legacy community to speak of, and where Legacy tournaments are populated by rogue decks, homebrews and decks with holes missing as people make due with tier 2 substitutions. That's par for the course. Does that mean Legacy, at this moment in time, is moribund? I don't think so. In my home town, even Standard tournaments had meager turnouts and were not full of tier one decks. My point is, talking about sustainability is difficult if you don't give more of a description of in which way you consider something sustainable.

If all you want is for Legacy to be semi-casual local tournaments like Vintage then fine: Legacy is sustainable.

[DragoFireheart]

legacy is far from being unsustainable as it is now.


I hear $50 for a dual land is cheap when they were $20 a few years ago.





The duals are in limited supply yet there are TONS out and it s still not hard to find duals, like at all.

Now? Sure, I suppose if you don't mind dropping $300 or so for your mana base. Couple years? How sure are you about that?





Expensive ? sure baneslayer is 40$, JTMS is 80$, Elspetch is 50$.

And you can crack open packs to get them. You can't do that with duals. Wizards can always reprint them to make obtaining them easier. In fact, Baneslayer is being reprinted.




There are decks in all tiers that can live AND WIN (tournament wise) without duals.

I don't want to invest $200 on a shit Tier 2 or $400 in a Tier 1.5 deck and go 1-3-1 to drop out. I want the best or top tier hot shit deck if I am going to drive 1-2hours + to boston and will be paying a $25 entry fee.





If overextended finally come out shit(shock)land won't remain that low, such as any new staple that ll rise, and all in all if that new format has any sucess - which i doubt - prices will still drastically increase just like in T2 & Legacy.

WoTC can reprint shocklands if they start to generate a lot of demand, which helps keep the price down. Wotc can't do that with duals.





So your statements are just pointless.

I might agree since you didn't bother to put any thought into your response towards them, so my statements are arguably a waste of time.





and btw vintage isn't dead.

Lemme clarify: Vintage obviously isn't dead, but it's being pecked to death by angry vultures who are content with keeping it alive so they can continue to enjoy pecking it to death, with the vultures being the players who are hellbent on playing vintage regardless and don't mind dropping thousands on Power 9 (In Europe)





got your answer ?

You call your post an answer? At least raise your standards.

[dahcmai]

What I think is funny is if overextended existed people would run to it exclaiming "yeah, I can afford the cards!", until they went up in price due to demand. Then they would say "at least they can all be reprinted!", as they watch the price of Tarmogoyf get even more obscene without a reprint. Then they'll say "it's better than Legacy and Vintage because there's less broken cards", as they realize how ungodly boring old Extended really was.

It's pretty horrible playing with Masques up, lemme tell you. I think Legacy is safe.

[ktkenshinx]

I'm curious what that even means. Sustainable for how long? Forever? 100 years? 30 years? 10 years?

I know you don't care about MTGO, but actually, MTGO is a good example in that even though the format is in its infancy online, people are still willing to play it. I have seen people take cost-cutting measures because they lack certain cards, especially in their mana base. I see no reason why we should doubt its [Legacy's, not just MTGO] sustainability in the short term, and you haven't really shown us any long-term time frame.
No one here is doubting the short term viability of Legacy as a format. In America, the SCG Open events are a testament to its popularity, and the dozens of regional European and East Asian tournaments reinforces its strength. Wizards' Legacy Grand Prix was also a stunning success to all involved, and Legacy's health is to thank for that. Short term, we are definitely fine.

But the concern that Drago and I are voicing is one of long term sustainability. Now, you question what that means: "Forever? 100 years? 30 years? 10 years?" These ranges are a bit outrageous to consider, but also not in the scope of the question. My worry is not about Legacy in a decade. It is about Legacy in 2-5 years. To demonstrate the problem, as I see it, we will use a small case study, the Dual Lands from Unlimited Edition. I will focus on the three most popular dual lands to demonstrate my point.

Let's take a look at the price of 3 dual lands, the 3 most used Dual Lands according to deckcheck.net (source: http://www.deckcheck.net/mpc.php?format=Legacy): Tropical Island, Tundra, and Underground Sea. We will be looking at the prices as graphed on Black Lotus Project, a website that describes itself as "The Gathering card price graphs from the Magic Online Trading League's latest non-foil physical magic card list. New prices are loaded every morning around 8:30am CST, which means the graphs are always fresh and up-to-date." (http://blacklotusproject.com/). More specifically, the site "...relies on the pricelists that Magic Traders publishes every day for the pricing data shown throughout the site. They collect data from eBay and calculate the "price" by averaging the selling price of all auctions for a given card." (http://blacklotusproject.com/blog/). Therefore, we can reasonably assume that this is a highly reliable website because it gets its data from eBay, probably the number 1 place that Legacy players would seek out cards.

Here are the price graphs for the three lands in question.
Tropical Island: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Revised+Edition/Tropical+Island/
Tundra: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Unlimited+Edition/Tundra/
Underground Sea: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Revised+Edition/Underground+Sea/

First, let's zoom out all the way using the scale at the bottom of the graph. That will make our earliest entry, as of June 24 2010, October 28 2008. At this time, Legacy still had not seen the Starcitygames Open Series, nor had it received too much official, sanctioned support from Wizards (especially after the ugly Grand Prix Columbus with Flash Hulk dominance). The only Sanctioned event was Grand Prix Chicago in March of 2008, with local TO's handling the rest for that year. Here are the starting prices ($) for the 3 lands as of October 28 2008.

Tropical Island: 26.34
Tundra: 40.55
Underground Sea: 34.58

And here are their prices ($) as of today, June 24 2010.

Tropical Island: 53.29
Tundra: 69.44
Underground Sea: 73.01

That's definitely an increase, but how big of an increase? To start, let's just see the overall percent change between the two dates.

Percent Increase Between October 28 2008 and June 24 2010
Tropical Island: 102.35%
Tundra: 71.25%
Underground Sea: 111.14%

Those are some big percentage increases. Looking at the graphs, we see that these are also fairly constant increases. This is most true on the Tropical Island graph, which has been going up, up, up since October. It is least constant on the Tundra graph, which has a lot of weird dips and flatlines across its progression. But all of that said, these numbers definitely hold for the overall trend of the graph.

Now, we know that it has been 607 (or 608 inclusive) days between October 28 2008 and June 24 2010. That means we can figure out roughly, on average, over the long span of time, how much the duals have been rising in price every day. To do this, we will find the difference between the old and new price, and then divide by the number of days.

Price Increase Per Day
Tropical Island: .044 per day
Tundra: .048 per day
Underground Sea: .063 per day

I understand that there are fractions of pennies in there, but I do not want to lose data with too much rounding, so 3 sig-figs will have to suffice. I also understand that it is perilous to extrapolate data like this, especially when I apply only a two year period of data to draw conclusions over a 5+ year period of data. But all that said, it's the statistics that we have, and we can't just ignore them no matter what side of the argument you are on.

So now that we have these values, we can, with great risks of course, extrapolate what MIGHT happen to duals over a given time period. Again, I stress that it is dangerous to extrapolate like this, but it is the data we have to work with, so we have to use it as best we can.

Prices ($) after 1 Year
Tropical Island: 69.49
Tundra: 86.81
Underground Sea: 96.12

Prices ($) after 2 Years
Tropical Island: 85.70
Tundra: 104.18
Underground Sea: 119.23

Prices ($) after 3 Years
Tropical Island: 101.91
Tundra: 121.56
Underground Sea: 142.34

Now, before you say "ROFL NUB LURN ECON LAWL" or something to that effect, please understand that I have qualified these results numerous times. It's dangerous to use data like this, especially our small sample size. But it is also, in this case, probably acceptable. Why? Because Legacy has seen consistent growth for the past 2 years with the largest growth occurring only in the last 12 months. Because the graphs of the dual lands have, with the weird Tundra dips aside, remained basically constant slopes for that time; in fact, many of them have had increased slopes this past year. The trend of rising dual prices has held for two years, and will probably go up given Legacy's continued popularity.

IF that happens and IF prices remain roughly the same, then my predictions might hold and we might see all three duals surpassing the $100 mark in 3 years, with 2 of them passing it in only 2 years. That's very bad news for Legacy, if it happens like that.

Now, you might say "It's not going to happen like that, and therefore you don't need to be talking about this." But that's a bunch of bull, and you must know it. Legacy will continue to grow in popularity as more events are held by SCG and other TO's, and more prizes are put on the line; why would SCG suddenly stop its tournament series, given how much money and publicity it probably gives them? If Legacy cannot have its popularity slowed, or its cards reprinted, then we look forward to the WORST case scenario which is what I have described above. It is NOT the only case that could happen, just the bad one. I hope that I have been suitably qualified in my remarks and no one tries to pounce on me for it, because that would mean you basically didn't read a word I have said.

A new format alleviates that pressure by splitting the Eternal crowd. This is not the only thing that a new format does, but it is one thing that it does well.


What I think is funny is if overextended existed people would run to it exclaiming "yeah, I can afford the cards!", until they went up in price due to demand. Then they would say "at least they can all be reprinted!", as they watch the price of Tarmogoyf get even more obscene without a reprint. Then they'll say "it's better than Legacy and Vintage because there's less broken cards", as they realize how ungodly boring old Extended really was.

It's pretty horrible playing with Masques up, lemme tell you. I think Legacy is safe.
My advice to Wizards has always been, and always will be, to release premium products of staples (like the Shocklands and even Goyf) to the public as a promotional release for their new format. It would drive their sales, it would drive format popularity, and it would keep prices fairly reasonable. If Wizards chooses to be foolish and just launch into this format without any reprints or any promotional buzz, then it is doomed, and I will be disappointed (As will other players). But this is an easily avoidable problem, and I hope Wizards sees that.

-ktkenshinx-

[Gibbie_X]

Wizards will look at the outcome of GP Columbus and can decide to overhaul Legacy or not. The format has a variety of decks, and some of the more broke cards are in later sets. With an overhaul, you still get Force of Will, and everyone wants to play with FoW. I thought they were going to make the uber-extended with Mercadian Masks and up. That would include so many good sets, leaving the format susceptible to any decks. It would be like the formation of Legacy when T1 was getting too ridiculous.

[ktkenshinx]

Edit: Better yet, count the number of Tier 1 decks and Established decks on this forum that use duals.

Now count the number that don't.

I bet you that for every one deck you find that doesn't use duals, there are at least 4 that do if not more. Oh, and you still didn't answer my question yet again, so continue to avoid the issue at hand.
A lot of speculation and arbitrariness has surrounded this issue, so I decided to settle it empirically. No more random numbers for either side: we are going to get a number for the Dual Land Count in good Legacy decks.

To do this, I looked at the top 16 (or top 8 where not provided top 16) from the following events, using the decklists provided. Yes, with one exception they are all American SCG Open events, but if one does not think this is representative, then that person is just admitting their bias on the question and is avoiding the hard statistical truth.

GP Madrid: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-02-28&end_date=2010-02-28&city=Madrid
SCG Richmond: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-02-28&end_date=2010-02-28&city=Richmond
SCG Indy: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-03-14&end_date=2010-03-14&event_type=SCLO
SCG Orlando: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-03-28&end_date=2010-03-28&event_type=SCLO
SCG Atlanta: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-05-02&end_date=2010-05-02&event_type=SCLO
SCG Philly: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-06-06&end_date=2010-06-06
SCG Seattle: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-06-13&end_date=2010-06-13&start=1&finish=16&event_type=SCLO

Then I looked at how many decks used Dual Lands, and how many they used. Here is what I found. Note: I have provided the Average Total Duals for each event. I have also provided the "Average duals in decks that ran duals" number, if some decks did not run them at all. This gives a good feeling for dual land prevalence in high level events.

GP Madrid
Average total Duals = 5.88
Reanimator: 4
ANT: 6
Zoo: 6
ANT: 5
CounterTop: 6
CounterTop: 8
Zoo: 6
Zoo: 6

SCG Richmond
Average total Duals = 3.56
Average Duals in decks that ran Duals = 5.19
Merfolk: 3
CounterTop: 5
Merfolk: 0
Reanimator: 4
Reanimator: 6
Zoo: 6
Merfolk: 0
CounterTop: 6
Belcher: 2
Merfolk: 0
Merfolk: 0
Angel Stompy: 4
Landstill: 9
Merfolk: 0
Zoo: 6
Zoo: 6

SCG Indy
Average total Duals = 3.75
Average Duals in decks that ran Duals = 4.61
Blue Land: 5
Goblins: 0
Team America: 7
Merfolk (+Goyf): 5
MBC: 0
Landstill: 5
Reanimator: 4
Tezzerator: 1
Merfolk: 0
CounterTop Survival: 7
Belcher: 2
Eva Green: 4
Reanimator: 5
NO CounterTop: 5
Merfolk (+Goyf): 3
Team America: 7

SCG Orlando
Average total Duals = 3.5
Average Duals in decks that ran Duals = 4.66
Goblins: 2
Assault Loam: 6
Merfolk: 0
CounterTop Bant: 6
Bant: 7
Merfolk +W: 2
Reanimator: 4
CounterTop Thopter Depths: 3
MBC: 4
CounterTop Dark Bant: 8
Merfolk: 0
Dredge: 4
MUC: 0
WW: 0
CounterTop NO Bant: 6
Eva Green (+W): 4

SCG Atlanta
Average total Duals = 4.19
ANT: 5
Reanimator: 4
New Horizons: 6
Belcher: 2
Goblins: 4
Reanimator: 4
Zoo: 6
Reanimator: 4
UW Tempo: 4
Goblins: 2
NO CounterTop: 7
Reanimator: 4
Helm of the Void: 4
UR Painter's Grindstone: 4
Merfolk: 3
Show and Tell: 4

SCG Philly
Average total Duals = 4.75
Average Duals in decks that ran Duals = 5.07
Zoo: 6
NO Bant: 6
New Horizons: 6
New Horizons: 6
Zoo: 6
ANT: 4
Zoo: 6
Blue Land: 4
Merfolk (+W): 2
New Horizons: 6
Zoo: 6
CounterTop Thopters: 4
Merfolk: 0
Cat Sligh: 6
Scapeshift Land: 4
Blue Land: 4

SCG Seattle
Average total Duals = 4.63
Average Duals in decks that ran Duals = 5.29
New Horizons: 6
Zoo: 7
Zoo: 8
Merfolk: 3
Reanimator: 4
Zoo: 6
Survival of the Fittest: 6
BW Aggro: 4
Merfolk: 3
Goblins: 0
Mono W Stax: 0
Reanimator: 4
Landstill: 7
Aggro Loam: 6
ANT: 4
Thopter Sword: 6

Total Average Duals = 4.32
Total Average Duals in decks that played with Dual = 4.98

There is the data and there are the numbers. In these 7 events, most decks ran at least a playset of Duals. If you were playing Duals at all, you had at least 5 in your deck, with some as high as 8 or 9. There are a few decks that did not use Duals at all. These are listed below with their ranking in the event.

SCG Richmond
3. Merfolk
7. Merfolk
10. Merfolk
11. Merfolk
14. Merfolk

SCG Indy
2. Goblins
5. MBC
9. Merfolk

SCG Orlando
3. Merfolk
11. Merfolk
13. MUC
14. WW

SCG Atlanta
-none-

SCG Philly
13. Merfolk

SCG Seattle
10. Goblins
11. Mono W Stax

15 decks out of the total 104 decks (6 top 16s and 1 top 8). Only 14% of the decks did not use Duals. What was the average ranking of a deck that did not use Duals in it? Simply add up the rankings and divide by the total:

Average ranking of a no-Dual land deck: 9th

In these events, if you were playing a deck that did not have duals, on average you would not even make the top 8.

Now, I understand that I am presenting these statistics towards the end of showing that duals ARE needed in Legacy decks. Therefore, you might say I have some bias. But that all aside, these numbers are damn clear and they show an indisputable image.

In these 7 events, decks used on average 4+ duals.

Thus, Duals are "necessary" in Legacy, far moreso than any other card; the closest competitor would be Goyf, and I am sure that if I did a survey of him, we would find him to be disturbingly prevalent, but NOT in every deck by any means.

I hope that these statistics are helpful and that we can continue to use evidence like this in our arguments instead of making unsupported generalizations (this is not a jab at any one poster).

-ktkenshinx-

EDIT:

Ktkenshinx posted numbers showing the growth that is based off of hypothetical information. None of his information was as far as I could tell based off of statistical information gained from a economics major who actually knows what they are talking about.
They are not hypothetical numbers up until the last three predictions. Everything else is hard eBay/BLP data.
As to the projections, I was just assuming a steady slope on the graphs, something that I have every indication to believe (looking at those graphs) will be true.
A more intensive economic model, which I COULD use if you really demand it, would probably produce the same results, or at least the same shape.
And as to someone "who actually knows what they are talking about," I have yet to see you produce any solid evidence for your claims. A lot of argument, but not a lot of evidence.

[DalkonCledwin]

And as to someone "who actually knows what they are talking about," I have yet to see you produce any solid evidence for your claims. A lot of argument, but not a lot of evidence.

Exactly what "claims" are you asking me to back up here? I provided proof that Death and Taxes is a Tier 1.5 deck, plenty of it actually. I am debating your claims, you have to prove them, not me. Your evidence that you just provided is sufficient to prove that in very high level tournaments such as the Grand Prix's and Star City Games Opens that Dual Lands are indeed prevalent, but hardly necessary to play on a more general level which is what the vast majority of legacy players do.

It might interest you guys to know that the "white weenie" deck that made 14th place in SCGs Orlando was actually a Death and Taxes build Piloted by the creator of the archetype.

[ktkenshinx]

Exactly what "claims" are you asking me to back up here? I provided proof that Death and Taxes is a Tier 1.5 deck, plenty of it actually. I am debating your claims, you have to prove them, not me. Your evidence that you just provided is sufficient to prove that in very high level tournaments such as the Grand Prix's and Star City Games Opens that Dual Lands are indeed prevalent, but hardly necessary to play on a more general level which is what the vast majority of legacy players do.
I just do not understand your fixation on that deck. It's like saying "We aren't in a recession guys, because this one company is doing great!" Similarly, "Top Legacy decks don't need duals, because this one deck doesn't use them!" You consistently overlook the evidence to the contrary of how many tier 1 decks, not 1.5 or 2 decks, DO use duals and DO demand duals. As to your claims that lack any evidence:


Either way the majority of decks in legacy can easily be made better by the simple inclusion of Tarmogoyf. So arguing that "you can build a deck without tarmogoyf" is tantamount to arguing that you can build a deck without dual lands. At least in my opinion.
Run the numbers. You will find that you are just wrong.


And I would also like to suggest that we do get back onto topic, as we have been sidetracked long enough. The topic at hand is that without proof that the new format is coming, and I mean SIGNIFICANT proof. I see no reason to argue that it is indeed coming. And unfortunately there is no significant proof that a new format is coming. All you guys have is speculation and conjecture about things that have happened, are happening, and why you think Wizards should do something about it.
The objective that I have CLEARLY been advancing is not to say "Wizards is going to make the new format!" I have been showing that there is a NEED for a new format and that Wizards should see the signs as much as we can see them (at least some of us). We are not rumormongering or speculating. We are discussing the state of a format using evidence, not conjecture.

The D&T fixation is a bit absurd at this point. As you yourself advocate, this should be a discussion about the format itself, and if there is argument, it should be focused on the need for this format, not the rumors surrounding it. From time to time we get bogged down with that aspect of the question, and that's alright. But we need to stay on the track of demonstrating a need for a new Eternal format and for assessing the state of the current Legacy. It's a worthwhile question period, whether or not you dislike the new format.

-ktkenshinx-

[DalkonCledwin]

4 on the decks to beat forum that can potentially (or do) run Tarmogoyf and be better for it. (New Horizons, UG Merfolk, Countertop, Zoo)
8 on the established decks forum’s first page out of 20 decks that can potentially (or do) run Tarmogoyf and be better for it. (Vial Goblins, Landstill, Team America, WG D&T, The Rock, UGw Tempo, Bant Survival, Tempo Thresh)

That is just on the main two forums. That is 46% of the decks on the first page of the Established decks forum, and the only page of the decks to beat forum. I am sure that if I expanded that search to include additional pages of the Established deck forum, that number would easily increase to over 50% of the list. The reason people want Tarmogoyf banned, is because it is the single most easily splashed beatstick in existence. There is a reason the card costs 80+ dollars afterall.

I will agree to drop the Death and Taxes discussion for now, as that is in my opinion not pertinent to the discussion at hand. I only brought it up initially because Drago had made an impossible request knowing it was impossible in the first place, and that is a fallacious form of debate. I did not intend to follow his impossible request and fall into the trap of his fallacious debate tactics. Unfortunately debating with Drago seems to be the equivalent of debating with an iron wall.

As for your claim that the evidence points that there is clearly a need for a new format. On that I cannot speak directly. I will say that while I do not like the idea of a new format being created if it supplants legacy entirely…. If a new format can be created in such a way as to supplement the currently existing eternal formats instead of supplanting them, then I have no problem with it, and would probably even start playing said new format happily enough. I hope having said that bridges the gap between us at this point?

[workingdude]

Average ranking of a no-Dual land deck: 9th

In these events, if you were playing a deck that did not have duals, on average you would not even make the top 8.

Now, I understand that I am presenting these statistics towards the end of showing that duals ARE needed in Legacy decks. Therefore, you might say I have some bias. But that all aside, these numbers are damn clear and they show an indisputable image.



The concept of using the top 16 data to figure out the average ranking isn't very strong.

What is the average ranking of any deck in the top 16? By your definition, the average ranking is 8.5. On average you would not make the top 8. This is even wrong intuitively, since we know half of the people will be in the top 8.

Is the average ranking of a non-dual land deck significantly (and therefore indisputably) different than the average ranking of a deck in general? With a sample size that small, the difference between the sample average and the 8.5 expected value is not statistically significant.

[Bardo]

Closed for maintenance.

[Bardo]

Verbal warnings to DragoFireheart and DalkonCledwin. Big props to ktkenshinx, however.

@ All - Stay on topic and be cool.

Re-opened.

[DragoFireheart]

As for your claim that the evidence points that there is clearly a need for a new format. On that I cannot speak directly. I will say that while I do not like the idea of a new format being created if it supplants legacy entirely…. If a new format can be created in such a way as to supplement the currently existing eternal formats instead of supplanting them, then I have no problem with it, and would probably even start playing said new format happily enough. I hope having said that bridges the gap between us at this point?


Your fear of the new overextended simply replacing Legacy (either directly or indriectly) is a justified fear since the format could very easily become very popular for a few reasons.

1. Any and all staples could be reprinted, allowing players to crack open packs instead of hunt for cards on-line.

2. The lack of duals, FoW, Wasteland and Lion's Eye Diamond would significantly warp the meta.

3. The relative cheapness of entry into the format. Since you don't need to buy duals, the price of the higher-tier decks would likely be at least half of current Legacy decks on average.

4. Zoo would likely be extremely powerful as the only significant difference would be the loss of duals and Chain Lightning.


What do you think WoTC would have to do to avoid causing overextended from replacing Legacy?

[Sharpened]

What do you think WoTC would have to do to avoid causing overextended from replacing Legacy?

Isn't asking that question like asking "What do we have to do to avoid intelligent robots from taking over the government?" Overextended doesn't exist.

Today we got this quote from Tom Lapille:


Our goal when we create formats is to help people find players to play against. When a format is not played outside of Pro Tour Qualifier seasons, it isn't doing that job. The previous version of Extended had exactly this problem, so we came up with something that was different from Standard but that we thought people might actually want to play on their own.

Fracturing eternal players between Legacy and this hypothetical "Overextended" seems to be contrary to what wizards is saying their goals are.

[DrJones]

What happened is that they broke Extended by making it rotate every year, so it's completely their fault. I also find the idea of overextended interesting, but it's quite saddening that the DCI had to create the legacy format as a way to ban Mana Drain, and now they have to create another eternal format in order to take out Force of Will from competitive play.

[DragoFireheart]

Isn't asking that question like asking "What do we have to do to avoid intelligent robots from taking over the government?" Overextended doesn't exist.

Overextended is a high possiblity if Legacy continues to go at it's current rate.




Fracturing eternal players between Legacy and this hypothetical "Overextended" seems to be contrary to what wizards is saying their goals are.

Legacy is going to be fractured by the cost of duals. WoTC needs to do something.

[DalkonCledwin]

Legacy is going to be fractured by the cost of duals. WoTC needs to do something.

The problem with this theory is that WotC has continually stated that they have no control over the secondary market. Nor do they seem to have any interest in controlling the secondary market. Thus creating an entire format to bypass the problems of the secondary market seems counterintuitive to that fact.

[ryO!]

Overextended is a high possiblity if Legacy continues to go at it's current rate.

Legacy is going to be fractured by the cost of duals. WoTC needs to do something.

your answer to my previous statement was so damn relevant that i won't bother making my point again. Anyway let's put this aside.

Thing is people also WANT to play with dual land & fow and any legendary staple that serve the name "legacy", so it is not that simple. What i mean is it's not only a matter of price, as Legacy allows people to play "any" (except the banned list) "legendary" that raised the credibility of MTG. That's probably why extended never has any sucess as it was some kind of really bad legacy/t2 hybrid. Seriously ask anyone, i guess for most of them they d rather spend a bit more on duals rather than buying any TurdLand or simply go for T2. Cards alone also attract people without any other consideration.

[DragoFireheart]

The problem with this theory is that WotC has continually stated that they have no control over the secondary market. Nor do they seem to have any interest in controlling the secondary market. Thus creating an entire format to bypass the problems of the secondary market seems counter intuitive to that fact.

Why would it be counter intuitive? WoTC would finally have an eternal format in which they have some control over the prices of secondary market cards: if they want to help overextended grow, they reprint staples. If they want to try and stop it from growing (which they won't: that would be counter intuitive), they stop reprinting staples. Either way, Wotc generate popularity for a eternal format which a lower entry level price, which means more people come to their tournaments which means more money for them.

WoTC doesn't care about the price, but they do care about players paying and playing in their tournaments. By being able to print staples, that makes it easier for people to enter said tournaments. The Legacy format would be a much larger population of players if you could buy packs and maybe crack open that dual land you want, or you crack open a Force of Will and trade it for a dual land.

With Legacy, WotC can't add more duals for the growing population of Legacy players. Prices go up until the price bubbles bursts, which causes everyone to start selling duals since format is dying, causing the price of duals to drop. This would be bad for collectors since now their duals are now losing value. This is also bad for players since if everyone is now losing interest for Legacy, there will be less support for tournaments.



ryO! said:


Thing is people also WANT to play with dual land & fow and any legendary staple that serve the name "legacy", so it is not that simple. What i mean is it's not only a matter of price, as Legacy allows people to play "any" (except the banned list) "legendary" that raised the credibility of MTG. That's probably why extended never has any sucess as it was some kind of really bad legacy/t2 hybrid. Seriously ask anyone, i guess for most of them they d rather spend a bit more on duals rather than buying any TurdLand or simply go for T2. Cards alone also attract people without any other consideration.


Don't use anecdotal evidence. Perhaps now people may be willing to pay $50 for a Tundra, but how about $60? $80? $100? There may also be a few that don't mind the price, but if the prices continue to grow they will be the only ones playing.

People won't play at all if a couple of cards start to cost as much as a HDTV.



Edit:

Here is one other idea that came to mind that would make overextended highly successful.

Does anyone here remember the Master Set from MTGO? The set that had duals and FoWs? If and when WotC makes this new eternal format, they could make a separate set of packs for overextended: old classics like Wild Mongrel or the shocklands from rav or maybe even Tarmogoyfs. These cards would only be legal in the other formats they were normally legal in, but doing this would do a few things:

1. More support for the overextended format since you can simply buy packs in hopes of getting that staple you want. By doing this, Wizards makes it easy for new players to enter overextended, which means more players would be likely to play, which means more tournament support for overextended.

2. WoTC makes more money. Releasing packs for a new set means WoTC could make more money off of everyone buying the overextended packs. Sounds like a nice way to make money off a new format, eh?

3. Any Legacy staples that are not on the reserved list become easier for new Legacy players to obtain. By playing in and buying packs for Overextended, they would be able to collect staples that are also heavily used in Legacy. If they then have the money, they would simply need to buy dual lands.

[ktkenshinx]

The concept of using the top 16 data to figure out the average ranking isn't very strong.

What is the average ranking of any deck in the top 16? By your definition, the average ranking is 8.5. On average you would not make the top 8. This is even wrong intuitively, since we know half of the people will be in the top 8.

Is the average ranking of a non-dual land deck significantly (and therefore indisputably) different than the average ranking of a deck in general? With a sample size that small, the difference between the sample average and the 8.5 expected value is not statistically significant.
Given that we have the most intensive data only for the top 16, this is really all we have to work with. We can, however, do a similar analysis of the data from SCG Seattle (or any SCG Open), which provided us with the extremely useful "Too Much Information" article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19592_Too_Much_Information_StarCityGamescom_Legacy_Open_Seattle.html)

Looking at the spreadsheet and using our knowledge of Legacy, we can see what decks were there and how many duals we used. This is going to take some assumptions, but for the most part (MOST part), they are good ones. What are these assumptions? It's the ability to look at a deck and guess if it uses Duals and, on a more difficult level, how many duals it uses.

Looking at the top 20 at the end of the tournament (in terms of points, not in terms of finals), we get the following decks. I have put a "Yes" next to those decks that use Duals and an explanation, if needed.

Zoo: Yes
Reanimator: Yes
Zoo: Yes
Zoo: Yes
Survival: Yes
New Horizons: Yes
Merfolk: Yes (We know this build ran Goyf and was played by Kevin Ambler)
B/W Aggro: Yes
Merfolk: Yes (We know this build was the +W version played by Brett Baugh)
Goblins: No (Not the B/R version as seen on the top 16)
Stax: No (Mono white)
Reanimator: Yes
Landstill: Yes
Aggro Loam: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Counter-Top: Yes
Stax: No (Mono white)
Blue Land: Yes
Zoo: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes

In that top 20 list, only 3 players were not using Dual lands. Everyone else had a deck with probably an average of 4-5 Duals, with decks like Merfolk running fewer (2-3), ANT and Reanimator running about 4, and Zoo/New Horizons running 6.

Let's keep going down the list and see what happens. We will look through the top 50 now, numbers 21 through 50 specifically:

Charbelcher: Yes
Merfolk: Yes (+W on spreadsheet)
Zoo: Yes
Reanimator: Yes
Merfolk: No (assuming No because I have no information to indicate otherwise)
Reanimator: Yes
New Horizons: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Merfolk: No (no information indicates otherwise)
Zoo: Yes
New Horizons: Yes
Zoo: Yes
Merfolk: No (as above)
Reanimator: Yes
Goblins: Yes (Note mentions this is +B)
Elves!: : Yes (Note mentions this is +B)
Merfolk: Yes (Note mentions this has Tarmogoyf)
Goblins: : Yes (Another +B version)
Zoo: Yes
B/W Aggro: Yes
Bant Control: Yes
Wizards: Yes (Most likely a UW version ala Winter Wizards, perhaps even with a red splash for Lavamancer)
Survival: Yes
Merfolk: No (Again, no information to say otherwise)
Goblins: Yes (A +B version)
Counter-Top: Yes
Life: Yes (Most Life decks are some permutation of WGB)
Mono Black Control: No (almost definitionally, although some MBC builds use 4 Bayou for additional threats in G2 and G3)
Blue Land: Yes
Counter-Top: Yes

So now we have looked at 50 decks total. Between decks 21 and 50, we see that only 5 decks did not use Duals. Combining that with our Top 20 survey, we see that in the top 50 decks of Seattle, only 8 did not use Duals.

Does the pattern hold? Well let's just check out the next 25 decks for fun. Here comes decks 51 through 75:

Goblins: Yes (The +B version)
Bant Control: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Reanimator: Yes
Dredge: No (Some versions are now using 4 Sea for consistency, but I will assume these are the non-Dual versions)
Zoo: Yes
Reanimator: Yes
Goblins: Yes (+B)
Slivers: Yes
Goblins: Yes (+B again)
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Counter-Top: Yes
Counter-Top: Yes
Merfolk: No (Probably Mono U)
New Horizons: Yes
Goblins: No (Finally a Mono R one)
Counter-Top: Yes
Zoo: Yes
High Tide: No
Stax: No (Mono white variety)
New Horizons: Yes
Burn: No (Here's a mono color strategy hard at work at 72nd place)
Merfolk: No
Reanimator: Yes
Reanimator: Yes

7 more dual-less decks on our list, all of them between 51 and 75 inclusive. That brings the total for our tournament to a whopping 15 of 75. Let's make it a top 100 survey just to be safe:

Reanimator: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Reanimator: Yes
New Horizons: Yes
High Tide: No
Merfolk: Yes (+W)
Reanimator: Yes
Merfolk No (Probably not)
Reanimator: Yes
Enchantress: Yes
New Horizons: Yes
Zoo: Yes
Threshold: Yes
Dredge: No
Elves!: No (No note of +B or anything techy like that)
Aggro Loam: Yes
Zoo: Yes
Zoo: Yes
Reanimator: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Blue Land: Yes
Merfolk: Yes (Adding in W)
Blue Land: Yes
Stax: Yes (This one specifies it's a Thopters build, which probably indicates some Duals)
Blue Land: Yes

That adds 4 more to the list to bring our grand total to 19 dual-land-less decks in the top 100 of SCG Seattle.

I'm feeling energetic right now, so I am going to finish off the tournament analyzing the next sets of decks in clumps of 25. Here's 101 through 125.

Mono Black Control: No
Dredge: No
Charbelcher: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Merfolk: Yes (A strange +B version. How exciting)
Bant Control: Yes
Charbelcher: Yes
Blue Land: Yes
Blue Land: Yes
Faeries: Yes
Reanimator: Yes
Bant Control: Yes
Faeries: Yes
Dream Halls: Yes
Merfolk: Yes
Reanimator: Yes
Goblins: Yes (A +B version again)
Counter-Top: Yes
Goblins: Yes (As above)
Reanimator: Yes
Dredge: No
Hexmage Depths: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Counter-Top: Yes
Reanimator: Yes

In the bracket: 3 decks without duals
Overall top 125 decks: 22 decks without duals

Here comes 126-150

Charbelcher: Yes
Charbelcher: Yes
Faeries: Yes
B/W Aggro: Yes
Blue Land: Yes
Counter-Top: Yes
Dredge: No
Reanimator: Yes
Reanimator: Yes
Burn: No
Zoo: Yes
Food Chain: Yes (Going to say yes and that this is a Goblins variation)
Reanimator: Yes
Counter-Top: Yes
Reanimator: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Burn: No
Dream Halls: Yes
B/W Control: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Charbelcher: Yes
Zoo: Yes
Reanimator: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Dredge: No

In the bracket: 4 decks without duals
Overall top 150 decks: 26 decks without duals

And finally here comes the last 40 or so decks in the tournament:

G/W Aggro: Yes
Counter-Top: Yes
Dredge: No
Merfolk: Yes (Tarmogoyf)
Mono Black Control: No
Eva Green: Yes
Mono Black Control: No
Reanimator: Yes
Dredge: No
Charbelcher: Yes
Goblins: Yes (+B)
Merfolk: No
Merfolk: No
Dragon Stompy: No
Blue Land: Yes
Counter-Top: Yes
Ziggurat Zoo: Yes
Counter-Top: Yes
Counter-Top: Yes
Dredge: No
New Horizons: Yes
Counter-Top: Yes
Burn: No
Merfolk: No
New Horizons: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Eureka!: Yes
Ad Nauseam: Yes
Goblins: Yes (Adding in B)
New Horizons: Yes
Dredge: No
Merfolk: No
Reanimator: Yes
Charbelcher: Yes
B/W Control: Yes
Helm of the Void: Yes
Enchantress: Yes
Reanimator: Yes
Doran Rock: Yes

That was a more interesting data set, that bottom group of 40.

In the bracket: 12 decks without duals
Overall top 150 decks: 38 decks without duals

That wraps up the data. Here's the analysis.

In the top 20 there were only 3 decks that did not run Dual lands. That was the smallest entry on our list (the top 20 bracket). The largest entry was the bottom 40, where a heft 12 decks lacked dual lands. Almost a third, 33%, of the decks that lacked dual lands showed up in the bottom 20% of the tournament. In the top top 20% of the tournament (the top 40), 6 of the decks did not use dual lands (15%). That's slightly under expected, but the bottom 20% had a huge representation of decks that were not running dual lands.

At SCG Seattle, 38 of the 191 decks did not use Dual Lands.
In the top 40, only 6 decks did not have Dual Lands (15%)
In the bottom 40, 12 decks did not have Dual Lands. (30%)

We would have to look at more tournament data to be sure on this, but I can say with some safety that the decks that were not playing Dual Lands did worse in the tournament overall by a long shot.

So are duals needed to play Legacy? No; 38 of the decks did not play with Duals in the event. But of those 38 decks, 12 of them could not even break the bottom 40. That says a lot about the prevalence of Duals in Legacy and their importance.

-ktkenshinx-

[ryO!]

Why would it be counter intuitive? WoTC would finally have an eternal format in which they have some control over the prices of secondary market cards: if they want to help overextended grow, they reprint staples. If they want to try and stop it from growing (which they won't: that would be counter intuitive), they stop reprinting staples. Either way, Wotc generate popularity for a eternal format which a lower entry level price, which means more people come to their tournaments which means more money for them.

WoTC doesn't care about the price, but they do care about players paying and playing in their tournaments. By being able to print staples, that makes it easier for people to enter said tournaments. The Legacy format would be a much larger population of players if you could buy packs and maybe crack open that dual land you want, or you crack open a Force of Will and trade it for a dual land.

With Legacy, WotC can't add more duals for the growing population of Legacy players. Prices go up until the price bubbles bursts, which causes everyone to start selling duals since format is dying, causing the price of duals to drop. This would be bad for collectors since now their duals are now losing value. This is also bad for players since if everyone is now losing interest for Legacy, there will be less support for tournaments.



ryO! said:



Don't use anecdotal evidence. Perhaps now people may be willing to pay $50 for a Tundra, but how about $60? $80? $100? There may also be a few that don't mind the price, but if the prices continue to grow they will be the only ones playing.

People won't play at all if a couple of cards start to cost as much as a HDTV.



Edit:

Here is one other idea that came to mind that would make overextended highly successful.

Does anyone here remember the Master Set from MTGO? The set that had duals and FoWs? If and when WotC makes this new eternal format, they could make a separate set of packs for overextended: old classics like Wild Mongrel or the shocklands from rav or maybe even Tarmogoyfs. These cards would only be legal in the other formats they were normally legal in, but doing this would do a few things:

1. More support for the overextended format since you can simply buy packs in hopes of getting that staple you want. By doing this, Wizards makes it easy for new players to enter overextended, which means more players would be likely to play, which means more tournament support for overextended.

2. WoTC makes more money. Releasing packs for a new set means WoTC could make more money off of everyone buying the overextended packs. Sounds like a nice way to make money off a new format, eh?

3. Any Legacy staples that are not on the reserved list become easier for new Legacy players to obtain. By playing in and buying packs for Overextended, they would be able to collect staples that are also heavily used in Legacy. If they then have the money, they would simply need to buy dual lands.

i don't think i ve said overextended would endanger legacy. On one hand i tend to totally follows you on the fact that - if - overextended become popular, i guess people will crack some old booster packs (starting from mercadia). On the other hand, and here i am just guessing, do you think it will have that much impact on the scarcity & price of legacy staples ? I guess it can indeed i am just not so sure it s ll be drastic though. Another question, is there that much overextended packs left ?And if those old packs become all of a sudden famous, wizzard won't makes money out of it, because, correct me if i am wrong, they won't release new booster box so the only winers here are shops that have some stocks. But all in all i guess overextended could be seen as some sort of pre-legacy (train there then join legacy) format. Anyhow i don't think legacy is on the edge of dying.
About the prices of duals and old staples don't forget that if legacy became widely more popular it is partly due to the SCG league, so i guess once the format will be stable, new comers wise, it will as well, hopefully, result in a stabilization of the staples prices. The SCG tour was a major turn in legacy, it gaves it a new exponential start which of course affected drastically offer & demand and everything linked in between.

at ktkenshinx thank for all those stats and input but let's not forget that, if indeed you need duals in legacy (you still can live w/o) but you don't need to own all the 40 ...

[quadibloc]

I'm definitely against changing Legacy to turn it into Overextended, and I'm fairly confident that this is one thing Wizards won't do.

Banning the original duals from Legacy would collapse their value the same way reprinting them would, so if Wizards recoils from the one in horror, one would think that it means they are unlikely to do the other.

I favor some kind of Overextended as a new format, because I think it will address the problem with cards rotating out of Extended and being forgotten - that was driving the complaints about the reserved list, and which was made worse by the Extended changes.

The thing is, though, that if they haven't announced this by now - and the prospect of cards becoming worthless after four years will hurt even the sale of really good and exciting sets, like the coming ones are expected to be - maybe they can't for some reason.

And one scenario I have is this: maybe they have been extensively playtesting just such a format, and what they've found is that there is basically no conceivable way, not by tweaking the banlist, not with including Chronicles and 4th Edition onwards in Core Sets in the card pools, not by leaving out Masques block entirely and starting from Invasion instead, not by reprinting Force of Will... that they can make it into a fun format that people will want to play the way they want to play real Legacy.

Hopefully, that particular nightmare is not true, but many criticisms I've seen of Overextended bring me to the point where I have to consider this as at least a possibility.

[unicoerner]

When will we know for sure if Overextended will happen?

[DownSyndromeKarl]

When will we know for sure if Overextended will happen?

When Wizards makes an announcement.

[bloodbrother]

why can't wizards reprint the original duals? they have already reprinted some of the cards in the reserved list. Karn, Silver Golem, Masticore, Memory Jar, Mox Diamond, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Negator, Powder Keg, Thawing Glaciers, Wheel of Fortune to name a few. please forgive my stupidity if i don't know, i'm new to legacy.

let's all face the truth, dual lands are important in legacy decks. even merforlk and goblins (the only mono colored tier one decks) are already splashing colors. that's already evidence enough that dual lands are important in every legacy deck. if ever there are still mono colored goblins and merfolk in tournaments, not all of them are mono colored by choice. some of those players using mono colored decks don't have the means to acquire the proper dual lands they need to splash and i'm one of them.

[Cabal_chan]

why can't wizards reprint the original duals? they have already reprinted some of the cards in the reserved list. Karn, Silver Golem, Masticore, Memory Jar, Mox Diamond, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Negator, Powder Keg, Thawing Glaciers, Wheel of Fortune to name a few. please forgive my stupidity if i don't know, i'm new to legacy.

let's all face the truth, dual lands are important in legacy decks. even merforlk and goblins (the only mono colored tier one decks) are already splashing colors. that's already evidence enough that dual lands are important in every legacy deck. if ever there are still mono colored goblins and merfolk in tournaments, not all of them are mono colored by choice. some of those players using mono colored decks don't have the means to acquire the proper dual lands they need to splash and i'm one of them.

iirc, right after GP Madrid they said something about 'this was our largest tournament to date, obviously we want Legacy to prosper'. They invited Menendian and some other store owners(SCG?) to talk about it. Then they said 'sorry folks, no more reprints. Can't tell you why, non-disclosure agreement'.

tl;dr version: No idea. Conspiracy theories(including something about 'collectors' not wanting reprints) abound.

[Eddy Wally]

If the duals would be reprinted, prices will drop. They may not plummet, but they will drop, especially for the white bordered ones.

I have no idea how the American legal system works, but here if you as a company release information about the availability of your product which can influence its prices on the secondary market (basically give people the reassurance that your product is of limited stock which won't be renewed), and people act on it, you could theoretically be held accountable if you later return on your word and cause the value of their investment to diminish. If you violate the expectation you legitimately created earlier and people's investments crash, lawsuits could very well follow here.

Those major retailers have hundreds, perhaps thousands of duals in stock. If even one of them threatened with legal action in case the value of their stock drops significantly after WotC would change its reprint policy, and in case their lawyers would have confirmed this, you can be 100% sure none of the cards on that list will ever be reprinted again.

[majikal]

If the duals would be reprinted, prices will drop. They may not plummet, but they will drop, especially for the white bordered ones.

I have no idea how the American legal system works, but here if you as a company release information about the availability of your product which can influence its prices on the secondary market (basically give people the reassurance that your product is of limited stock which won't be renewed), and people act on it, you could theoretically be held accountable if you later return on your word and cause the value of their investment to diminish. If you violate the expectation you legitimately created earlier and people's investments crash, lawsuits could very well follow here.

Those major retailers have hundreds, perhaps thousands of duals in stock. If even one of them threatened with legal action in case the value of their stock drops significantly after WotC would change its reprint policy, and in case their lawyers would have confirmed this, you can be 100% sure none of the cards on that list will ever be reprinted again.
They could get around this if they were to reorganize the company and change its name. Probably won't happen unless they get sold to someone, but theoretically it is a workaround to the Reserved List. Different company, different rules.

[martyr]

Someone mentioned a while ago that you could get around it by printing functional reprints. Manabases can only get so big, so while it may be *ideal* for some decks to run four originals and four of the functional reprints, it would give people a budget option to smooth their decks out, and to jump into legacy without a massive investment in the secondary market. Since you can't reprint Underground Sea, printing something like:

Rather Moist Icky Place
Nonbasic Island Swamp Zombie
t: Add U or B to your mana pool.

The shocklands were a step in the right direction, but 2 life per land is FAR too steep a cost to pay compared to the zero that those who own the original duals pay.

As for the reserve list cards that were reprinted, I believe WotC got around that by arguing that because they were premium versions, they weren't reprints, but have since revised their policy so that NO reprints of them will occur regardless of their state. But still, change the name, add a wierd type to the card, and you get "legal" reprints.

[whienot]

Wishing for fetchable artifact duals in Scars block....

[Eddy Wally]

They could get around this if they were to reorganize the company and change its name. Probably won't happen unless they get sold to someone, but theoretically it is a workaround to the Reserved List. Different company, different rules.

Not really. When you take over a company you take its place in every contract and obligation it entered into. If you'd have to start from scratch, you'd also have to renegotiate every labour contract with each and every employee for example. Even if that weren't the case, it would not be something they'd do for the sake of the reserved list.

[ns2973]

If the duals would be reprinted, prices will drop. They may not plummet, but they will drop, especially for the white bordered ones.

I have no idea how the American legal system works, but here if you as a company release information about the availability of your product which can influence its prices on the secondary market (basically give people the reassurance that your product is of limited stock which won't be renewed), and people act on it, you could theoretically be held accountable if you later return on your word and cause the value of their investment to diminish. If you violate the expectation you legitimately created earlier and people's investments crash, lawsuits could very well follow here.

Those major retailers have hundreds, perhaps thousands of duals in stock. If even one of them threatened with legal action in case the value of their stock drops significantly after WotC would change its reprint policy, and in case their lawyers would have confirmed this, you can be 100% sure none of the cards on that list will ever be reprinted again.

This isn't the case in the states. Where are you from that this has legal precedent?

[Sims]

Not really. When you take over a company you take its place in every contract and obligation it entered into. If you'd have to start from scratch, you'd also have to renegotiate every labour contract with each and every employee for example. Even if that weren't the case, it would not be something they'd do for the sake of the reserved list.

There would be no re-negotiating anything. It is not a contract, it's a company policy. And as they've shown by doing it already, policies are subject to change.

They could change the reprint policy again and reprint Beta with new card frames and foils and from a legal standpoint, I don't believe the upset collector's or players would have a leg to stand on.

Now, that doesn't mean they will do this, or even have plans to change the reprint policy again. But policies are malleable and subject to change when and if the companies needs make said policy obsolete or defunct.

[swoop]

Policies are a subject to change, they are "promises" but they can change.

They could reprint something like this:

"Artifact swamp/island"

tap: add u/b

and a few lands a la

"very cool 4of"
land - artifact locus
all lands are indestructible
tap:add 1 to mana pool

"neo wasteland"
add 1
Target player sacrifices target nonbasic land

its complicating..

or just a reprint with some new name. "Tropical Peninsula", "underground lake", "Island of Vulcanoes" :D

[Meekrab]

Those major retailers have hundreds, perhaps thousands of duals in stock. If even one of them threatened with legal action in case the value of their stock drops significantly after WotC would change its reprint policy, and in case their lawyers would have confirmed this, you can be 100% sure none of the cards on that list will ever be reprinted again.
Except this will never happen, because that retailer would then go out of business because they would never get any new Hasbro product ever again. Good luck maintaining single card sales when you have no new product to open/sell.

[Gheizen64]

Except this will never happen, because that retailer would then go out of business because they would never get any new Hasbro product ever again. Good luck maintaining single card sales when you have no new product to open/sell.

Also, you can't threat legal action against a policy...

[Humphrey]

its complicating..

or just a reprint with some new name. "Tropical Peninsula", "underground lake", "Island of Vulcanoes" :D

Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form, but they could make:

Swamp Island
When this comes into play opponents get 1 life

[ktkenshinx]

Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form, but they could make:

Swamp Island
When this comes into play opponents get 1 life
This might have once been the case, but this got thrown out the window in M11.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=205038&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=1294&type=card

Do not give me that garbage about Reverberate being different from Fork. In most cases where it matters, these cards are functionally identical. Given that Fork sits happily on the Reserve List, Wizards had to know what they were doing when they printed this. This card might represent Wizards response to the List and the ultimate Hasbro decision. Or it might be a one time anomaly (unlikely).

If this is representative of a Wizards stance or card-creation policy, then the whole Overextended format need not ever exist. Functional reprints of Legacy staples would keep the format both alive and even thriving.

Here's hoping.

-ktkenshinx-

[wolfstorm]

Well, If they do happen to stop supporting legacy as a format I'm pretty sure I would still play it, was playing it before it was supported anyhow, even though dragon combo was quite rampant back then.

Also, fork's oracle text seems even closer to reverberate than the card text, Copy target instant or sorcery spell, except that the copy is red. You may choose new targets for the copy. >> wtb reprints.

[swoop]

I like legacy for diversity, going to overextended would mean buying lots of new staples = no go for me. (plus i wouldn't be able to play aluren)

[Eddy Wally]

This isn't the case in the states. Where are you from that this has legal precedent?

I'm a former lawyer from Belgium. Things work differently here. If you announce an intention that's worded as if it is permanent without a caveat that you might change that policy and people act on it, there's a good chance they'd be able to sue you for reparations here if you suddenly go against what you promised earlier and they suffer damages because of that.

As I said, I have no idea how things work on your side of the pond. I was speculating.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I hate to burst anyone's bubble who still thinks overextended will still happen, but not gonna happen.
Reasons...

It's a bad business decision if WoTC did do it. WoTC from a money making standpoint wants people to buy packs. They forever want standard and draft to be the most popular formats by far because that is how they make the most money. It's likely it would be cheaper to make a good "Over-Extended" deck than a current Standard deck and the OE deck would be good for much longer without any additional investment. If this pulled people away from T2 and Ext that would be bad for them.

Why keep Legacy around then? Take me for example, I haven't played T2 since Rav block, I still spend money on MTG because Legacy exists. From a business perspective it is good for them to keep Legacy around now that it is out because there are plenty of people like me who would not play Magic if they couldn't play the cool cards they wanted to play with when they were younger. I've wanted Moats and dual lands since I was in middle school, now I have them, if you take them away I tell WoTC to eat a dick and never play Magic again. Most Legacy players you will find fall into 2 categories. 1: They basically only play Legacy, maybe draft or EDH. 2: They play every format, always have the best T2 deck, and a good Legacy deck because they like the prize support and extra tournaments. Most Legacy players either already spend lots of money on new cards or would never spend money on Magic if Legacy didn't exist. Protip: If you don't own a non-budget Legacy deck IRL and play it, you don't count for this exercise.

Why make Over-Extended? There is no good reason, that's why it's not going to happen. No one ever played the old Extended, that is why they got rid of it, not because they needed to make room for a new format. Old Extended went back 7 years, "Over-Extended" would go back 11 years, why would WoTC make a format that is similar to the least popular format they had? Seriously, outside of PT I would guess there were more Vintage tournaments over 50 people than extended. Extended literally died on the vine, Legacy is popular, Wizards wants people to buy new cards, does any of this point to a new format? Legacy is right where it needs to be right now, what the future holds is anyone's guess. Dual lands have dropped back down in price after most people who wanted them bought in earlier this year. WoTC is fine with the situation and we have entered the age of T2 staples regularly costing more then dual lands, so I can't see any complaints about the price of Legacy being taken seriously.

[ummon]

This might have once been the case, but this got thrown out the window in M11.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=205038&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=1294&type=card

Do not give me that garbage about Reverberate being different from Fork. In most cases where it matters, these cards are functionally identical. Given that Fork sits happily on the Reserve List, Wizards had to know what they were doing when they printed this. This card might represent Wizards response to the List and the ultimate Hasbro decision. Or it might be a one time anomaly (unlikely).

If this is representative of a Wizards stance or card-creation policy, then the whole Overextended format need not ever exist. Functional reprints of Legacy staples would keep the format both alive and even thriving.

Here's hoping.

-ktkenshinx-

I would argue that Fork is not so strong that people would necessarily play it as a 8-of. On the other hand, if they reprinted the duals, that would clearly be bad as you can essentially play 8 cards instead of 4.

[Humphrey]

I would argue that Fork is not so strong that people would necessarily play it as a 8-of. On the other hand, if they reprinted the duals, that would clearly be bad as you can essentially play 8 cards instead of 4.

Most decks wont play more Duals because of Wasteland or more colors than 2. Already a lot of lists run only 3ofs

[bloodbrother]

i also think that overextended would not likely happen, but i also think that wizards is finding all means possible to get around the reserved list and provide better support for legacy as THE eternal format. they have already made attempts like premium foil reprints (karn, etc), and functional reprints (fork, etc). the way i see it is that there might be a possible functional reprint of the dual lands in scars. i've read an article (forgot which one) from wizards site about a dual land that gives poison counter to the owner. example

land
when land enters the battlefield you get a poison counter
tap: add r or b to your mana pool

i know it can't be fetched but it would be as close as a shock land gets to immitating the original duals.

[Grollub]

Most decks wont play more Duals because of Wasteland or more colors than 2. Already a lot of lists run only 3ofs
However if you could double up on your relevant duals wasteland would be alot less intimidating.

Anyhow, Extended when duals were legal was thriving and popular - extended after losing duals lost alot of popularity and legacy quickly gained more players, coincidence? I think not, people want to play the more interesting multicolored decks without having to use shoddy manabases.

To be honest I think duals (and wasteland) should be in the base set, it'd be healthy for all formats -- and sales. But one can always dream.

[bloodbrother]

i agree dual lands, wasteland, sinkhole and price of progress on the base sets.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I think Wizards should just break down and release a couple playsets, maybe 12x of each dual in every set. Just to keep the supply constant. This would barely affect the price of duals, if at all, because of such a low number put back into circulation. It would also sell more packs, see Zendikar first print run with the "Hidden Treasures."

[jrsthethird]

i agree dual lands, wasteland, sinkhole and price of progress on the base sets.

Imagine

Poison of Progress
1B
Instant
Each player gets a poison counter for each nonbasic land they control.

and

Poisoned Savannah
Land - Forest Plains
When this ETB, you get 2 poison counters.

Problem solved. Standard/Extended get lands that are basically non-optional shocklands, so you need to actually think about how to construct the best manabase and make decisions every game whether you want to fetch duals or basics, but in Legacy, the poison would be a non-issue unless you're playing against poison.dec.

Poison POP is there to further incentivize you to NOT play the maximum number of poison duals in your deck in smaller formats, while allowing the occasional blowout in Legacy (thus giving you incentive to go out and get the superior duals when you have the money). This should preserve the value of old duals while opening up the format to more players.

[bloodbrother]

Imagine

Poison of Progress
1B
Instant
Each player gets a poison counter for each nonbasic land they control.

and

Poisoned Savannah
Land - Forest Plains
When this ETB, you get 2 poison counters.

Problem solved. Standard/Extended get lands that are basically non-optional shocklands, so you need to actually think about how to construct the best manabase and make decisions every game whether you want to fetch duals or basics, but in Legacy, the poison would be a non-issue unless you're playing against poison.dec.

Poison POP is there to further incentivize you to NOT play the maximum number of poison duals in your deck in smaller formats, while allowing the occasional blowout in Legacy (thus giving you incentive to go out and get the superior duals when you have the money). This should preserve the value of old duals while opening up the format to more players.

yup definitely agree with this one. ravnica duals are not played in legacy due to the fetchlands already lowering your life total. they could also make something like Murmuring Bosk type of land.

[jrsthethird]

Most decks wont play more Duals because of Wasteland or more colors than 2. Already a lot of lists run only 3ofs

No, the reason people don't play 4 duals in 3c lists is because of deck space. You include one basic of each color, because of Path or Wasteland (getting basics is usually the wrong play and loses you more games than you realize), and then there are 12 duals you can run. That leaves room for 5 or 6 fetchlands. Of course, you want to mazimize your chances of getting the right colors, so you need to make room for more fetches because they are essentially 3-color lands. This is why lists frequently run 9-10 fetchlands and only 6-8 duals (not regarding utility lands like Wasteland or Horizon Canopy). Adding poison duals would only increase the amount of playable duals in 2c decks because of this.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

Of course, you want to mazimize your chances of getting the right colors

that typo sounds like something Strongbad would say.

[Gheizen64]

Imagine

Poison of Progress
1B
Instant
Each player gets a poison counter for each nonbasic land they control.

and

Poisoned Savannah
Land - Forest Plains
When this ETB, you get 2 poison counters.

Problem solved. Standard/Extended get lands that are basically non-optional shocklands, so you need to actually think about how to construct the best manabase and make decisions every game whether you want to fetch duals or basics, but in Legacy, the poison would be a non-issue unless you're playing against poison.dec.

Poison POP is there to further incentivize you to NOT play the maximum number of poison duals in your deck in smaller formats, while allowing the occasional blowout in Legacy (thus giving you incentive to go out and get the superior duals when you have the money). This should preserve the value of old duals while opening up the format to more players.

This would still be bad in Legacy. Being unable to play 5 of them and the occasional "lol you lose" if they print a viable poison creature make them still unusable, even if better than Shockland in a vacuum. I dunno if they would be played, for sure you wouldn't run 10+ of them in a deck.
Also, White-blue land giving you poison seems... iffy.

[dahcmai]

I still liked the idea of making them snow lands. Scrying Sheets ftw.


Or even better, desert type lands of some sort. Like Desert Oasis, Sun-parched Dunes, or Place where stuff dies a lot and smells real bad.

Break out the camels. lol

[sigfig8]

that typo sounds like something Strongbad would say.

+1

I'm sad they don't update Homestarrunner.com anymore.

There are a million ways to dream up functional reprints of the dual lands. Doesn't change the situation though :-(

It would also be nice to have a FoW functional reprint. Maybe pay 2 life instead of 1? Or your opponent gains 3 life instead of paying 1 life?

[jrsthethird]

This would still be bad in Legacy. Being unable to play 5 of them and the occasional "lol you lose" if they print a viable poison creature make them still unusable, even if better than Shockland in a vacuum. I dunno if they would be played, for sure you wouldn't run 10+ of them in a deck.
Also, White-blue land giving you poison seems... iffy.

They would be played by people who can't afford/don't want to shell out $50+ per dual land.

Ever hear of sun poisoning? Acid rain? Sound white and blue to me.

[majikal]

+1
It would also be nice to have a FoW functional reprint. Maybe pay 2 life instead of 1? Or your opponent gains 3 life instead of paying 1 life?
Or they could just, you know, reprint FoW since it's not on the Reserved List.

[lordofthepit]

It would also be nice to have a FoW functional reprint. Maybe pay 2 life instead of 1? Or your opponent gains 3 life instead of paying 1 life?

Do we really need to be able to run 8 FoWs in the format?

[sigfig8]

Do we really need to be able to run 8 FoWs in the format?

Good point. I take it back and I agree with majikal. Let's just reprint FoW. Where would you release them to the public though? I do NOT want a standard format with FoW. It would be weird to have FoW be a headliner for a dual deck. Maybe FTV?

[Humphrey]

No, the reason people don't play 4 duals in 3c lists is because of deck space. You include one basic of each color, because of Path or Wasteland (getting basics is usually the wrong play and loses you more games than you realize), and then there are 12 duals you can run. That leaves room for 5 or 6 fetchlands. Of course, you want to mazimize your chances of getting the right colors, so you need to make room for more fetches because they are essentially 3-color lands. This is why lists frequently run 9-10 fetchlands and only 6-8 duals (not regarding utility lands like Wasteland or Horizon Canopy). Adding poison duals would only increase the amount of playable duals in 2c decks because of this.

thats exactly what i said lol

[Bardo]

Moved to Community.

[jrsthethird]

thats exactly what i said lol

I thought the Wasteland was the most important part of your post, not the multiple colors.

[bloodbrother]

Wow, am I the only one afraid that Mental Misstep is the new FoW if ever Wizards will create this format?

[Octopusman]

In response to the OP:

I would immediately sell everything that I have that is not overextended legal and play overextended. I'd be really mad that they killed legacy, but I would suck it up and play overextended because I love Magic.

Unfortunately, Overextended doesn't solve Wizards problem. It solves the reserve list problem, but not the problem of them getting eternal players to open more product...

It's so infuriating watching a fantastic product be managed by a bunch of damn morons. I may be starting a magic knockoff that has a better business model if these idiots destroy their own product eventually.

[bloodbrother]

I was thinking that it might solve the problem for eternal. More GP's (their doubling the GP's in 2012) means more chance to have GP Foils and Judge Foils for legacy and vintage (those that are not on the reserved list). They could also have Dual Lands and Power Nine as prizes in OverExtended since the player base there will be much more interested on those and not on boosters. Which makes sense since they had already given away power nine as prizes on legacy side events. They are not blind to see that eternal is very much alive and kill it, look at the prices of staples. They will not reach that price if not for the huge demand for eternal staples.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

Yes.

Force stops EVERYTHING. Mental Misstep is too conditional

[HokusSchmokus]

I would be kind of pissed but eventually just shrug it off and punish wizards by playing legacy dredge totally unchanged in overextended.

[dahcmai]

It seems Mental Misstep can necro threads too. Man, it does everything. lol

[perm]

In response to the OP:

I would immediately sell everything that I have that is not overextended legal and play overextended. I'd be really mad that they killed legacy, but I would suck it up and play overextended because I love Magic.

Unfortunately, Overextended doesn't solve Wizards problem. It solves the reserve list problem, but not the problem of them getting eternal players to open more product...

It's so infuriating watching a fantastic product be managed by a bunch of damn morons. I may be starting a magic knockoff that has a better business model if these idiots destroy their own product eventually.

Please start a good magic counterfeiting business, I will buy wholesale

[routlaw]

I would be kind of pissed but eventually just shrug it off and punish wizards by playing legacy dredge totally unchanged in overextended.

Any overextended format would have ban lists to sharply reduce the Legacy combo decks that would survive the transition intact.

I actually think this format wouldn't start from Masqes onward, but instead Invasion-block onward. This gets rid of a few key cards that would be trouble in the format- Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, and Rishadan Port (the latter because there just aren't enough of them to go around as a Wasteland "replacement"). Not to mention broken things like Gush.

Wizards does have to do something about Extended. Changing the format to "double standard" for this PTQ season has not been a success with the playerbase or the TOs.

[(nameless one)]

Question: Which set did the official type 1.X started on?

I think if there was such thing as over-extended, it would start there.

[Mr.C]

Question: Which set did the official type 1.X started on?

I think if there was such thing as over-extended, it would start there.

Revised. Not an option.