[New Deck] Mono Black Discard

[Red_Death01]

Effective New Testing Name: Death's Caress

Sorcery (18)
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Raven's Crime
4x Sign in Blood
1x Syphon Life
2x Thoughtseize

Land (19)
19x Swamp

Instant (9)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Funeral Charm
1x Snuff Out

Enchantment (4)
3x Liliana's Caress
1x Necrogen Mists

Creature (6)
4x Nyxathid
2x Tombstalker

Artifact (4)
4x The Rack

Sideboard:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Oppression
4x Sadistic Sacrament

___________________________________________

The deck is almost out of it's developing stages it looks like, if anyone has any other suggestions I would love to hear them. I'll begin fishing with this deck to see it's draw engine and consistency and then work against learning if it is at least a capable match against the first and/or second tier decks.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Check the Pox thread. Not enough recursion to build CA.

[conboy31]

Land (22)

3x Megrim


You can dump the megrims with m11 coming out:
Liliana's Caress
1b
Enchantment Uncommon
Whenever an opponent discards a card, that player loses 2 life.

[Red_Death01]

You can dump the megrims with m11 coming out:
Liliana's Caress
1b
Enchantment Uncommon
Whenever an opponent discards a card, that player loses 2 life.

Already knew that :D, that isn't until september or so though so I couldn't necessarily put a non-exsistant card in the deck just now could I :/

As for Pox, this doesn't work like pox. It runs 3 Smallpox simply because I feel they work better than the original idea of Sinkholes. Then again, I'll be honiest I'm new here so I'm not sure what you mean by "recursion to build CA"

[jrsthethird]

M11 is legal in July....

[Red_Death01]

M11 is legal in July....

O.O ... ... *changes Megrim to Caress*

[Vacrix]

Oppression is god dam amazing against control and combo.

[DalkonCledwin]

you can probably increase the tombstalker count to 3 or 4 as you are running enough fast discard and other things of that nature to enable you to be able to reliably cast the tombstalker at 2 mana instead of 8. I would even suggest that Tombstalker is strictly speaking BETTER than Nihilith in most cases.

I would highly suggest making the change to include Sign In Blood on the basis that that card can act as end game burn in a tight pinch if necessary as well as enabling you to keep the gas of this deck going.

Finally is the fact that between your main deck and sideboard you have exactly 3 cards that deal with creatures, and they are basically edict effects that effect both players unilaterally. As such I would highly suggest finding better creature removal than that, at least if you want to survive the meta shift that is going to be taking place on July 1st, 2010.

I think you will find that you need far less discard in your deck than you are actually anticipating needing, due to the fact that once you have emptied your opponents hand the first time, they are hard pressed to fill it up unless they don't actually play anything from that point on, which is I am assuming why you are playing the Rack, to force them not to play anything :D

[Greenpoe]

These cards might help: Wrench Mind, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Pit, Ensnaring Bridge. Infernal Tutor to search for answers after you've used up your hand. Cabal Pit & Ensnaring Bridge to help deal with creatures. Also, I think Dark Ritual is essential. You need that explosiveness or you'll just get overrun.

[Red_Death01]

I've made modifications to the deck again, The reasons I don't use Ensnaring Bridge is because if I recall correctly it affects my creatures as well which all are 4/4 and 5/5s and act as my threats/defense. With Wrench Mind Itook the advice Dalkon's advice with less discard and added in acceleration/searchs. I also made modifications to my sideboard heavily and made it more Aggro hate while keeping my combo/graveyard hate in. As for my answers with Burn- I don't anticipate winning against it unless I manage to lock them down fast enough which- may seem highly possable at the moment.

I threw around the idea of Oppression and decided not to put it in, at least not just yet. The reason for this being that my goal is to empty my opponents hand and then make them hold off which continously beating on them. I feel Oppression would be good if I was in a losing slope but, in the case of when I have everything working in my favor it would quickly turn against me. As for 3-4 Tombstalkers I'm also semi-hesitant about it and keeping it around 2 at the moment (up from 1) for drawing into them early game they almost act as dead cards. Late game of course they're god sends but, being the fact my weakness at the moment is making sure I lock the opponent down fast enough having these draws early in wouldn't necessarily help me.

I also changed a Swamp to a Lake of the Dead to act as an acceleration but, will most likely change it back or change it to a wasteland instead if tests show it doesn't really help me. I also increased the count of Lilana's Caress up to 4 being that it is one of my win conditions and its cheap to play whenever instead of my megrim's which were 1 mana more and harder to cast early in.

[Jon Stewart]

If your win conditions are Megrim/Liliana's Caress and The Rack.

And you are playing lots of discard as well as Necrogen Mists.


You really ought to abandon both creature based win conditions AND 4cc removal like Consuming Vapors and instead play...

4 Ensnaring Bridge
3-4 Noetic Scales

Those cards both singlehandedly shut down and lock up 95% of legacy decks for good. While cards like Innocent Blood, Smallpox and Pox buy time.


With all the discard you run, along with Necrogen Mists, both The Rack and Megrim are more than capable of finishing your opponents off.

Check the pox thread, I run a very similar list.

[Red_Death01]

If your win conditions are Megrim/Liliana's Caress and The Rack.

And you are playing lots of discard as well as Necrogen Mists.


You really ought to abandon both creature based win conditions AND 4cc removal like Consuming Vapors and instead play...

4 Ensnaring Bridge
3-4 Noetic Scales

Those cards both singlehandedly shut down and lock up 95% of legacy decks for good. While cards like Innocent Blood, Smallpox and Pox buy time.


With all the discard you run, along with Necrogen Mists, both The Rack and Megrim are more than capable of finishing your opponents off.

Check the pox thread, I run a very similar list.

Hmmmm Very insteresting. The combination of those 2 would definantly lock down any aggro deck. With abandoning my creatures and adding those in I could probably also remove more of my creature hate in my sideboard and replace it with more hate towards control or burn... Pox is a card I really want to avoid for the simple fact it is to devistating to myself. I use to play Pox but, I began to realize I was losing more than winning because of Pox. What would be your suggestion of sideboarding if I use the Bridge/Noetic Scales?

Version 2 is listed above

[EssKay]

Sorcery (22)

3x Consuming Vapors
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Thoughtseize
4x Sign in Blood
3x Smallpox

Artifacts (5)
2x Anvil of Bogardan
3x The Rack

Enchantment (5)
4x Liliana's Caress
2x Necrogen Mists

Creatures (6)
4x Nyxathid
2x Tombstalker

Land (22)
16x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Wasteland
1x Lake of the Dead

Sideboard (15)
3x Diabolic Edict
4x Lethal Vapors
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Sadistic Sacrament

________________________________________

The deck is almost out of it's developing stages it looks like, if anyone has any other suggestions I would love to hear them. I'll begin fishing with this deck to see it's draw engine and consistency and then work against learning if it is at least a capable match against the first and/or second tier decks.

Personally I would go -2 Tombstalker, -3 Infernal Tutor, -4 Sign in Blood, -3 Consuming Vapors, +4 Hypnotic Specter, +4 Dark Confidant, +4 Dark Ritual, then maybe also find room for Volrath's Stronghold to make sure I could stick a Bob/Hippie.

[Red_Death01]

Currently my only thoughts of improvement is maybe changing the Thoughtseizes to Duress, seeing as how I now have 9 answers for creatures I can decrease the damage I suffer from using thoughtseizes and instead change them to duress. The other option would be Inquisition of Kozilek which could also be a possability but limits the card removal range to 3 or less cost...

[Jon Stewart]

Hmmmm Very insteresting. The combination of those 2 would definantly lock down any aggro deck. With abandoning my creatures and adding those in I could probably also remove more of my creature hate in my sideboard and replace it with more hate towards control or burn... Pox is a card I really want to avoid for the simple fact it is to devistating to myself. I use to play Pox but, I began to realize I was losing more than winning because of Pox. What would be your suggestion of sideboarding if I use the Bridge/Noetic Scales?

For this idea, maybe a deck like:

2x Anvil of Bogardan
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Infernal Tutor
1x Lake of the Dead
3x Liliana's Caress
2x Necrogen Mists
3x Noetic Scales
4x Sign in Blood
3x Smallpox
16x Swamp
3x Syphon Life
3x The Rack
4x Thoughtseize
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Wasteland

SB:
3x Dash Hopes
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Sadistic Sacrament
4x Thorn of Amethyst

What do you all think?

Awesome list. I like your deck a lot.

One thing I might do is replace the Anvil of Bogardan with Necrogen Mists. One is better with The Rack and Noetic Scales/Ensnaring Bridge while the other is better with Megrim. It's a tough call though.

If you want, Unburden makes for a great for a great Hymn 5-8. The card tests better than it looks on paper.

Do you really need Sign in Blood? I tried the card and didn't htink it was that great.

I love both Leyline of the Void and Sadistic Sacrament. But both Thorn and Dash Hopes look really bad in this deck. Why would you ever opt to play Thorn over Sphere in your deck? Black has tons of great sideboard options. I would play something like Engineered Plauge or Infest might be needed against weenie decks like goblins, elves and merfolk that Ensnaring Bridge is sometimes too slow for. Check the pox deck for sideboard ideas.

[Red_Death01]

Awesome list. I like your deck a lot.

One thing I might do is replace the Anvil of Bogardan with Necrogen Mists. One is better with The Rack and Noetic Scales/Ensnaring Bridge while the other is better with Megrim. It's a tough call though.

If you want, Unburden makes for a great for a great Hymn 5-8. The card tests better than it looks on paper.

Do you really need Sign in Blood? I tried the card and didn't htink it was that great.

I love both Leyline of the Void and Sadistic Sacrament. But both Thorn and Dash Hopes look really bad in this deck. Why would you ever opt to play Thorn over Sphere in your deck? Black has tons of great sideboard options. I would play something like Engineered Plauge or Infest might be needed against weenie decks like goblins, elves and merfolk that Ensnaring Bridge is sometimes too slow for. Check the pox deck for sideboard ideas.

At the moment I'm going to try and keep anvil the way it is, Sign in Blood I'm using at late game burn and a draw engine so as not to run out of gas to fast. As for sphere, I looked up more cards and do you mean: Trinisphere or Spehere of Resistance? -I don't necessarily think trini would help and never realized there was a card like resistance...

[Jon Stewart]

I honestly can't recommend playing Anvil over Necrogen Mists.

Necrogen Mists works great with The Rack, Noetic Scales, Ensnaring Bridge, Infernal Tutor AND Liliana's Caress.

Basically it works with half your deck, and all of your key spells.

Anvil by comparison helps your opponent by letting them find artifact and enchantment destruction faster, and doesn't help The Rack, Noetic Scales or Ensnaring Bridge at all.

There is no good reason to play Anvil over Necrogen Mists. 80% of the time, Mists is unquestionably the better card.

[Red_Death01]

I honestly can't recommend playing Anvil over Necrogen Mists.

Necrogen Mists works great with The Rack, Noetic Scales, Ensnaring Bridge, Infernal Tutor AND Liliana's Caress.

Basically it works with half your deck, and all of your key spells.

Anvil by comparison helps your opponent by letting them find artifact and enchantment destruction faster, and doesn't help The Rack, Noetic Scales or Ensnaring Bridge at all.

There is no good reason to play Anvil over Necrogen Mists. 80% of the time, Mists is unquestionably the better card.

After much thought I'll only have to agree with you. I'm going to look into making the list more like:

4x Dark Ritual
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Liliana's Caress
3x Necrogen Mists
3x Noetic Scales
4x Sign in Blood
3x Smallpox
16x Swamp
1x Syphon Life
3x The Rack
4x Thoughtseize
4x Wasteland

Removing the 2 anvil and replacing it by 1 Mist and 1 wasteland. When fishing I've found 19 lands to be rather risky, I'm hoping increasing it to 20 will decrease me having to mul, and since 21 of the 40 cards use atleast 1 colorless adding an additional wasteland as a land/land destruction won't hurt (imo). I'm almost wondering if I should take the risk of cutting 2x Bridge, 1x Scale and adding 3 Beseech the Queen. Simply because top decking another bridge or scale can sometimes do nothing for u but, getting a queen could make it into something else, maybe not even changing those 3 but, some how work beseech the queen in. Also, when having a bridge or scale already out and an infernal tutor in hand drawing another bridge or scale will really feel like a kick in the nads if you don't have a mists also out. That and I'm still wondering if I should change Thoughtseize to duress or inquition to decrease the self-infliction risk... Though I'm not to concerned with this aspect. What are your thoughts guys?

[Vacrix]

Honestly this list looks really, really good, with an exception. Are you liking Sign in Blood? It looks so underwhelming. I think it would work better if you had something to combo with Dark Ritual in the mid-late game. Maybe Nantuko Shade? It can attack under Scales/Bridge and then you can pump it.

[Red_Death01]

Honestly this list looks really, really good, with an exception. Are you liking Sign in Blood? It looks so underwhelming. I think it would work better if you had something to combo with Dark Ritual in the mid-late game. Maybe Nantuko Shade? It can attack under Scales/Bridge and then you can pump it.

In my tests Sign in Blood has helpped substantially, if you would like you can test as well but, the reasonings for using it I'll list below;

Early to Late game Fuel (Draw Mech.)
Late game burn
Force opponents to draw cards then follow with a hymn or thought+mist [Obviously having Caress in play, you would deal an easy 6 damage]

The idea of having only a couple monsters for a little aggro seems underwhelming for me, the reasoning behind this is because almost 99% of the decks I know have SOME form of creature hate and can easily respond to them. Also, like I stated, early game you can use it as a draw mechanic and even late game if your running low on fuel and need just a small kick start to send your opponent into a panic again. Another neat ability is when you have the opponent locked out they won't necessarily respond to being signed themselves, note: This does run the risk of giving them an instant to counter-act! No risk. none gained though.

The use of Dark Ritual late game is sometimes- underwhelming I've found, simply because of the mana curve being heavy in the 2 and 3 section having 3 lands you empty your hand by no later than turn 5. While you and your opponent should both have no hand and be top-decking by this time this is where Sign in Blood comes in handy. Having that card advantage is what this deck currently lacks and I feel Sign in Blood does this; atleast for now.

I've mentioned this before and thrown around the numbers trying to find a good middle, having Dark Rituals early game is such a threat it would almost be a waste not to have them, late game it almost feels like your kicking yourself in the nads. What I may try to do is change the numbers around again to:

-2 Bridge, -1 Scale, -1 Dark Ritual, +4 Beseech the Queen

This'll decrease the chances of drawing a bridge the most but, a Queen could very easily become said bridge next turn or, if you need a caress, rack, mist, scale, and so forth. The obvious downfall of Beseech is that you may not have the mana that turn then to play the card you just found. Getting rid of multiples that are harmful when you draw into them when having an Infernal tutor in hand is also something I feel I should keep in mind. I've done this a lot actually; having an infernal tutor in hand and drawing a second bridge or scale and not have enough mana to cast both the duplicate and tutor for something I need.

--- All together I'm pleased to see a lot of positive feedback from this forum (and another I attend) involving this deck. It may not be ready for tournament play but, if someone has friends capable of testing against multiples of well-known established decks I would LOVE for the added helpping hand! I'll begin my own deck testing rather soon once my summer break ends. Lastly, if things work out for the positive I think this deck will need a name... Mono Black Discard is sorta- Common... :D

Update: Having 20 lands I'm now getting the feeling I have to many... I may reduce the land count by 3 or 4 and use those lands as the Beseech cards instead, or maybe another discard/protection.

[Vacrix]

Why Sphere of Resistance in the board? For the combo matchup? I think you already have enough discard to deal with combo. Oppression completely locks combo out of the game. They can't cantrip into a way to remove it without nuking their own hand in the process. So if they do, you can just Hymn them to get them down to 0. Then they have to build all the way back up. Have you needed it in testing against combo? You might want to replace it with Chalice of the Void that way you don't autolose to Burn.

@lands
Cutting it to 19 wouldn't hurt. Then you can add in the 4th Rack. Its your strongest win con IMO.

[Red_Death01]

Why Sphere of Resistance in the board? For the combo matchup? I think you already have enough discard to deal with combo. Oppression completely locks combo out of the game. They can't cantrip into a way to remove it without nuking their own hand in the process. So if they do, you can just Hymn them to get them down to 0. Then they have to build all the way back up. Have you needed it in testing against combo? You might want to replace it with Chalice of the Void that way you don't autolose to Burn.

@lands
Cutting it to 19 wouldn't hurt. Then you can add in the 4th Rack. Its your strongest win con IMO.

Hmmm, my original thought on the sphere was another way of dealing with control/combo. Looking at it again after my multiple additions of; like you said- Oppression, adding in dark rits and so forth I should look more towards burn now. Chalice has been added in place of sphere for the [1 counter] zone, of course this can hurt me by knocking out thought (which is already EXTREMELY risky to use vs burn imo), my dark rituals for accelerations, and one of my win conditions (the rack) I just need to be very careful about using it.

My current thought for the deck list is currently running:

4x Beseech the Queen
3x Dark Ritual
3x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Megrim
2x Necrogen Mists
2x Noetic Scales
4x Sign in Blood
3x Smallpox
14x Swamp
2x Syphon Life
4x The Rack
4x Thoughtseize
4x Wasteland

SB:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Oppression
4x Sadistic Sacrament

Cutting the lands down to 18 and increased my Rack/Syphon by 1 each giving me a chance of drawing into syphon a bit more often and getting a rack faster.

[DarthVicious]

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Scepter of Fugue

4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Chains of Mephistopheles

4 Quest for the Nihil Stone
4 The Rack
3 Liliana's Caress

4 Dark Ritual
18 Swamp

This is what I want to run. Not sure how good it is, but I have everything in the list except Liliana's Caress.

Mana costs are all 2 or less, and with Ritual, I know it'll be fast enough. No creatures negates the effect of Bridges, along with opposing spot removal. Maybe needs some Smallpox or Edict effects, but I'll do some testing.

[Jon Stewart]

After much thought I'll only have to agree with you. I'm going to look into making the list more like:

4x Dark Ritual
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Liliana's Caress
3x Necrogen Mists
3x Noetic Scales
4x Sign in Blood
3x Smallpox
16x Swamp
1x Syphon Life
3x The Rack
4x Thoughtseize
4x Wasteland

Removing the 2 anvil and replacing it by 1 Mist and 1 wasteland. When fishing I've found 19 lands to be rather risky, I'm hoping increasing it to 20 will decrease me having to mul, and since 21 of the 40 cards use atleast 1 colorless adding an additional wasteland as a land/land destruction won't hurt (imo). I'm almost wondering if I should take the risk of cutting 2x Bridge, 1x Scale and adding 3 Beseech the Queen. Simply because top decking another bridge or scale can sometimes do nothing for u but, getting a queen could make it into something else, maybe not even changing those 3 but, some how work beseech the queen in. Also, when having a bridge or scale already out and an infernal tutor in hand drawing another bridge or scale will really feel like a kick in the nads if you don't have a mists also out. That and I'm still wondering if I should change Thoughtseize to duress or inquition to decrease the self-infliction risk... Though I'm not to concerned with this aspect. What are your thoughts guys?

This list looks really awesome. The only card I'm not sure about is Sign in Blood. It seems iffy.

One card that I like is Raven's Crime as a 2 of.

Another card that I LOVE in this deck is Phyrexian Arena. I've won soooo many games on the back of that card. It nullifies Necrogen Mists, and gives you tons of gas. Plus with the life gain that Syphon Life gives you, you really ought to play 3 Phyrexian Arena minimum.

It's the perfect way to get away with running enough lands that you never get mana screwed, and still have something to do with the lands you draw in the midgame.

I'm not a fan of 4 Beseech. The card is rather mana intensive and doesn't play too well with Necrogen Mists.

Here's my suggesion...


4 Dark Ritual
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Infernal Tutor/Something else
4 Liliana's Caress
3 Necrogen Mists
3 Noetic Scales
4 Phyrexian Arena
3 Smallpox
16 Swamp
1 Syphon Life
1 Raven's Crime
3 The Rack
4 Thoughtseize
3 Wasteland

[Red_Death01]

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Scepter of Fugue

4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Chains of Mephistopheles

4 Quest for the Nihil Stone
4 The Rack
3 Liliana's Caress

4 Dark Ritual
18 Swamp

This is what I want to run. Not sure how good it is, but I have everything in the list except Liliana's Caress.

Mana costs are all 2 or less, and with Ritual, I know it'll be fast enough. No creatures negates the effect of Bridges, along with opposing spot removal. Maybe needs some Smallpox or Edict effects, but I'll do some testing.

In the very very early stages of the deck this was what it looked semi-like this but, I eventually got rid fo the Quests (even though I love them dearly) and focused more upon survival and control rather than plain out running at your opponent.


This list looks really awesome. The only card I'm not sure about is Sign in Blood. It seems iffy.

One card that I LOVE is Raven's Crime as a 2 of.

It's the perfect way to get away with running enough lands that you never get mana screwed, and still have something to do with the lands you draw in the midgame.

Edit*
Atm, I'm going to try and keep the flashbacks to Syphon lifes instead of another discard mechanic. Though Raven's Crime is a nice card, I feel (atm) syphon life is better suited and- gets around Chalice at 1.
I like the idea for Phyrexian Arena. I'm going to move some numbers again and lets see what we come up with.

4x Dark Ritual
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Liliana's Caress
3x Necrogen Mists
3x Noetic Scales
4x Phyrexian Arena
3x Smallpox
14x Swamp
2x Syphon Life
4x The Rack
4x Thoughtseize
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Oppression
4x Sadistic Sacrament

Is what I came around with.

[DarthVicious]

I just picked up a playset of Quests. I also play storm, so I'm kinda used to going for the throat as fast as possible.

My bad, Bridge costs three. Almost forgot. Anyways, I'm thinking those Scepters need to be creature kill of some kind.

[Red_Death01]

I just picked up a playset of Quests. I also play storm, so I'm kinda used to going for the throat as fast as possible.

My bad, Bridge costs three. Almost forgot. Anyways, I'm thinking those Scepters need to be creature kill of some kind.

Scepter is a nice card, its just I don't think its able to be fit in anywhere because it requires 2 to place it, another 2 to use and only once per turn. Where as if you use syphons; sure its another mana but, your automaticly doing 2 damage AND gaining 2 life nullifying damage you've taken by smallpox/thoughtseize or an attack that got through. All you need is another land and you can do it again. Also- using Cabal Therapy in a deck like this really doesn't seem to helpful to me, unless you know their hand you have the chance of wasting a mana and since you have no creatures you have no way of using the flashback. If you were to play a deck like that I would rather go with Duress or Inquisition.

[DarthVicious]

Scepter is definitely becoming Smallpox. Therapy, on the other hand, I included because it can nab anything thoughtseize can, as long as I name the right card. And it can nab multiple cards. I also run them in storm as the very least I get for my black mana is information. But I've been looking for a place to stick those Inquisitions since I got them. I want a card that can pull out creatures so I don't have to rely on Smallpox and Bridge.

[mujadaddy]

Edit*
Atm, I'm going to try and keep the flashbacks to Syphon lifes instead of another discard mechanic. Though Raven's Crime is a nice card, I feel (atm) syphon life is better suited and- gets around Chalice at 1.
I like the idea for Phyrexian Arena. I'm going to move some numbers again and lets see what we come up with.

4x Dark Ritual
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Megrim
3x Necrogen Mists
3x Noetic Scales
4x Phyrexian Arena
3x Smallpox
14x Swamp
2x Syphon Life
4x The Rack
4x Thoughtseize
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Oppression
4x Sadistic Sacrament

Is what I came around with.That is a pretty good :b: deck, right there... not perfect, but pretty good... I might try that. Needs more Funeral Charm?

[Red_Death01]

That is a pretty good :b: deck, right there... not perfect, but pretty good... I might try that. Needs more Funeral Charm?

The deck actually use to run 4 but, after a couple of tests I changed them to.. well, many things... Funeral Charm is definantly a good card being that its an instant just, have any idea where to put it?

[Jon Stewart]

I would play a one of Raven's Crime over Funeral Charm. It's better in the early game, before they get to the discard step.

I've used to discard as many as four-five cards with a single copy.

Any updates on the deck Red Death. How's your build been doing? Like I said, I think it looks awesome.

[DarthVicious]

I played this list in Vestal yesterday. Didn't do to well, but I made some mistakes and there were some cards I really shouldn't have run.

4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Anvil of Bogardan
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Quest for the Nihil Stone
4 The Rack
3 Nihilith
4 Dark Ritual
18 Swamp

Sideboard was useless. Seriously the only cards I had on the board that got any use were 4 Damnation and 3 Engineered Plague. I've got 2 The Abyss I'm putting in, along with a fourth Chains. I found a card that'd be great to have after the game is locked down, Brink of Madness. If this card gets into play before I lock the game up, I can use it to finish them off and they actually take damage from Racks and Quests. This is how I'll be testing it until Liliana's Caress comes out at least.

4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
3 Thoughtseize
2 Raven's Crime
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Quest for the Nihil Stone
4 The Rack
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Anvil of Bogardan
3 Brink of Madness
2 The Abyss
18 Swamp

EDIT: I had one New Horizons opponent who wanted to Brainstorm when I had two Chains in play. He had three cards in hand counting the Brainstorm.

[Red_Death01]

Deck Tested:
4x Dark Ritual
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Infernal Tutor/Something else
4x Liliana's Caress
3x Necrogen Mists
3x Noetic Scales
4x Phyrexian Arena
3x Smallpox
16x Swamp
1x Syphon Life
1x Raven's Crime
3x The Rack
4x Thoughtseize
3x Wasteland

I tested this deck against an Aggro deck... The problem is it was [STANDARD] mono green eldrazi aggro.... They stomped on the deck pretty consistantly... Being that it lost against a standard aggro deck I'm going to only assume a legacy deck would quickly chew it up and spit it out. The problems I noticed were:

Once I successfully locked his attacks out with Bridge + Noetic my Phyrexian arena slowly dwended my last life away while I could only helplessly watch.
Drawing into additional bridges and scales screws the ones in play unless you waste a turn playing a second one.
The decks current control element is very slow and even with dark rituals going off it was quickly hitting the low 6s of hp making arena and thoughtsieze nearly unplayable.
Not hitting a single caress or mist feels like getting kicked in the balls repeatedly.
Infernal tutor though lovely- almost seems underwhelming if you have any other single card in hand. Getting a second thoughtseize, hymn, bridge, scales, swamp, etc. proved nearly worthless and only ate mana and allowed the opponent to know what to expect.

Results of games:
Game 1- Turn 1 I empty the opponents entire hand with double dark rit, hymns, and a thoughtseize. Get stuck with 2 lands for 5 turns and then get a hard casted emrakul, He wasn't to friendly... (Opponent was at 38 Life- I hate Nissa)
Game 2- (We don't sideboard due to cross-format) Game goes rather smoothly, Getting 4 Racks into play, a Bridge, and scales I lock him down. My phyrexian arena ended up bringing my life from 9 to 0 drawing into nothing useful... (Opponent was at 6 Life)
Game 3- This game was the worst, getting nothing much of use except a few hymns, thoughtseize, and scales, my opponent conscripted a 0/1 and killed me with it... (Opponent was at 19 life)

As the results have shown me playing against a standard aggro deck shouldn't be that difficult- It would (or atleast should be) far less of a threat than any other legacy aggro deck such as zoo or goblins. At the present time my various thoughts of improvement for the deck are:

Splashing an additional color (Maybe Red for Burning Inquiry, Blightning, Lightning Bolt, Gamble; or Blue for draw mechanics such as ponder, brainstorm, Lim dul's vault, or damage counters like Countersquall or Undermine)
Removing Noetic Scales
Removing Phyrexian Arena
Changing Thoughtseize to Duress/Inquisition
Removing Infernal Tutor

The most plausable idea I think is splashing blue. utalizing blue's ability to draw and counter in combination with blacks ability to control the hand and field.

Current quick thought of blue splash:
Land (19)
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
7x Swamp
4x Underground Sea
3x Wasteland

Enchantment (7)
4x Liliana's Caress
3x Necrogen Mists

Artifact (8)
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x The Rack

Sorcery (14)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Ponder
3x Smallpox

Instant (12)
4x Countersquall
4x Lim-Dul's Vault
4x Recoil

[DarthVicious]

The list I ran last weekend almost stomped Goblins. Legacy goblins. Ringleader saved him, because that's not a draw effect and Chains won't touch it. I've changed my list slightly. He always had a couple cards in hand, and boarded out Vials. I needed more discard spells that grab multiple cards, Hymn is absolutely amazing.

4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
3 Thoughtseize
3 Mindstab
2 Raven's Crime
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Liliana's Caress
4 The Rack
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Anvil of Bogardan
2 The Abyss
18 Swamp

4 Damnation
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Ravenous Trap/Leyline of the Void

Adding another color, I believe, weakens the deck for the reasons previously discussed in every other thread for monocolored decks. Although, if I were to add another color, it'd be blue.

I also played against Kobold Combo (Eli's deck), New Horizons, another Goblin deck, and a couple others I don't remember. Based on what happened, my problems should be solved with Liliana's Caress and Mindstab. Quest for the Nihil Stone is a horrible win condition. Only won one game from it, which was the only game it did any damage.

[Iranon]

Not sure if this even belongs here... but I've been working on a mono-black discard deck with Noetic Scales recently. I think the concept works best in a list that's between the unreasonably aggressiveness of Suicide lists and the clunkiness of a typical MBC build.

I don't particularly like the Pox angle or Liliana's Caress: You often wish to attack their hand first, in which case it's not the fastest win condition. Like the Rack, it also does nothing for your defense.

Here is what I prefer:



4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach


4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
1 Chittering Rats
4 Shriekmaw

4 Noetic Scales

1 Liliana Vess

3 Mishra's Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
20 Swamp



All creatures interact nicely with Noetic Scales in one way or the other, some when being bounced, others when remaining on the battlefield. I know Chittering Rats looks horrible and replacing it with a 3rd Shade seems obvious... but I really found it useful in winning attrition wars and I really hate seeing a second Shade with this deck.
With 17 discard effects, Noetic Scales should shut down most creature-dependent strategies hard. The deck doesn't feature card draw, but imo it doesn't need any... most decks that don't struggle horribly with Scales don't like a big load of discard spells.

[DarthVicious]

The general idea I got from this thread is that it is for discard based monoblack control. My list is more lockdown control than anything else, and I prefer that creatureless because of Ensnaring Bridge. But to each his own.

EDIT: With twenty swamps, you may want to look into Lake of the Dead to keep replaying those creatures you bounce all the time. Or Cabal Coffers. Something to produce a ton of mana so you can just drop them back into play for more trigger happiness.

[Red_Death01]

After the extreme defeat I suffered tuesday I was in the slumps and was very close to really giving up, Thankfully-

SPECIAL SHOUT OUT TO:
Galroth

I was renewed in the decks ability to come out. Even though I'm still running things he doesn't necessarily agree with I'm going to try to see if they work. At the moment I've scrapped the current aggro control and focused more upon threats. Various reasonings behind this was what Galroth described to me and what I experienced using them. The decklist will still focus on mono-black as it can make it.

4x Blackmail
4x Dark Ritual
4x Funeral Charm
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Liliana's Caress
1x Necrogen Mists
4x Nyxathid
4x Sign in Blood
19x Swamp
4x The Rack
3x Tombstalker
3x Syphon Life

As you can see I've made an overhaul in the deck. I'm now only running the necrogen mists as a one of because having more than 1 out or drawing into multiples doesn't really help, I'll more focus upon hellbent tutoring it. Caress I'm still trying because its better than megrim and its cheaper, though megrim was a failure it was also 3 mana, being caress is only 2 mana you can much more easily drop it on turn 3 and follow with a discard and go from there, having multiples of these out also doesn't hurt so I've cap'd it at 3, The major threats will be Rack and I've added Nyxathid again, I've been having to many lonely nights without my favorite creature and want to see if he can make the list again. Syphon lifes I'm looking more of for as a threat and as an anti-burn/aggro. Giving me more time and dealing damage can make the difference, if I want to drawing into a land then won't be so bad too if I have a syphon in the graveyard. Tombstalkers are back and I'm running 2 for I've never had to much of a living with running 3 of them. Sign in blood I've added back as a draw mechanic and late game burn again. If its late game and I have both a sign and hymn in hand I can make a very potent combo with caress out.

Also- Funeral charm, drawing into it I have found not to be that bad for the simple fact your gaurenteed your opponent will have 1 less card in hand on his turn be it before or after drawing.

Depending on how testing goes I may remove the 3 Lilianna's Caress and move numbers of the funeral charms to 3 while adding 4 thoughtseize or duress. Another option would be replacing them with 3 mind wrecks. To be completely honiest though, I really hope Caress works out better than the past failures of Megrim did. If it does, it can be a very deadly component. Turn 1 drop with dark rit and force discard, turn 2 drop with dark rit for potental 6 damage, or even turn 3 drop without dark rit for 2 damage.

Update: (7-02-10)
I played against Enchantress tonight, It was actually semi-strange and risky. For a deck we should have a fairly easy win against it was actually very hard. The opponent however DID know the deck I was playing before game 1 and played completely defensive.
Game 1- Getting a Rack, Caress, and Nyxathid out I was locked down when he liquid my nyx to a 0/4, oblivion ringed my rack and then aura of silence sac'd my caress. Drawing into nothing useful then I was killed off by 4 very angry angels.
Game 2- (No board for either of us) We both mulligan down to 5, I start play slow with a blackmail followed by a caress next turn and then a hymn turn 3. My opponent is having no luck with cards though and can't get anything into play. When I get a second caress into play I sign of blood him and hymn him doing a DEVASTATING 10 damage and finish him off with a 3 damage rack his turn.
Game 3- Boarding in Sad Sac and Oppression boarding out all of my creatures. By turn 2 his 3 win conditions were in the grave- except he replished and then got them all back (Great....) The game goes poorly, eventually getting 2 caress and a mist in I'm able to come back with a Sad sac hitting his draw mechanics instead of his win conditions. I manage to pull back from the depths of hell and win the game with an instant cast funeral charm.

The testing was iffy, for a deck that should be rofl'd it held well against it. Theres changes I feel that should be made to the deck but, I'm currently not sure where to start.

[Galroth]

Thx for the shout - glad some of my feedback was useful.

I like your new incarnation much more than the previous. A couple of additional thoughts:

Blackmail - I'm surprised you're choosing this card over Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozileck, or Raven's Crime. Funeral Charm I can get because it also acts as removal. Early game when you're rushing to empty their hand, Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozileck are strictly better. Late game, Raven's Crime is much better. The recursive discard effect is something you're lacking right now. The only time when Blackmail could be better is a very limited few turns in the mid-game. Since you're running Infernal Tutor, I'd really recommend at least a singleton of Raven's Crime.

Infernal Tutor & Tombstalker - They're both great kill conditions, and at one point I was running both in my deck also. I found that any opening hand which had both of these cards in it, or multiples of either card, played out poorly. Having Infernal Tutor in hand often slows down how quickly you can drop Tombstalker. Conversely, having a Tombstalker in hand often means you can't hit hellbent as quickly to make good use of Infernal Tutor. I just found it too clunky in too many hands. I really like either, or if you run both, few copies of each.

Infernal Tutor Toolbox - I love having a toolbox with Discard. Anytime I have the chance my inclusions are almost always 1x Raven's Crime, 1x Syphon Life, and 1x Snuff Out. I think having 3x Syphon Life may be overkill. Without Infernal Tutor, it makes great sense. With Infernal Tutor... well I can understand not wanting to waste your tutoring on Syphon Life, but I'd rather see a couple more answers than having multiple copies of Syphon Life in your yard.

Other than that, looks pretty solid.

On Enchantress - I think your enchantress match may have been a bit weak because the number of early discard effects you run is a little low. You're only running 12x Discard effects none of which are recurring (like Raven's Crime, Hypnotic Specter, or Nezumi Shortfang are). I think running cards like Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozileck might help you pick out potential answers to your kill conditions before your kill conditions come online. That first game of yours seems unlucky. He had an answer for a creature, an enchantment, and an artifact. That's surprising, especially if he was drawing into his answers. Maybe not as surprising if you weren't able to deplete his hand prior to laying those down.

Anyways, good luck. I'm enjoying reading the thread.

[Red_Death01]

Sorcery (18)
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Raven's Crime
4x Sign in Blood
1x Syphon Life
2x Thoughtseize

Land (19)
19x Swamp

Instant (9)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Funeral Charm
1x Snuff Out

Enchantment (4)
3x Liliana's Caress
1x Necrogen Mists

Creature (6)
4x Nyxathid
2x Tombstalker

Artifact (4)
4x The Rack

Sideboard:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Oppression
4x Sadistic Sacrament

Would be my Changes I've thought of, Expanding my toolbox slightly and changing discards. I'm limiting Thoughtseize due to a pre-caution of burn decks and fast clock aggros. I've considered adding 4x Spawning Pool several times to act as chump blockers in situations but, ive been juggling this idea for awhile, they don't necessarily work as lands themselves so I haven't yet. What are your guy's thoughts? Another idea I had for chump blocking is Bitterblossom, but- I've decided against this for the very reason I'll be do more harm than good.

[EssKay]

Is anyone still playing with this list? It occurred to me today that Words of Waste combined with SDT could make a pretty strong instant-speed discard engine, especially if you have a draw engine like Bob or Arena. Since Bob and Top play so nicely together anyway, I thought it might be worth testing. Off the top of my head, the list could look something like this:


//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Nyxathid

//Spells
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek (could be Thoughtseize or Duress)
2 Funeral Charm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Words of Waste
4 Liliana's Caress
4 The Rack
2 Board Sweeper - Damnation/Disk?

//Lands
6-8 Fetches
10-12 Swamp


Obviously that could use a bit of testing/tweaking, but I think the Words/Top engine could be GG so long as you aren't way behind on board position, hence two slots for something to clear the board.

[EssKay]

Is anyone still playing with this list? It occurred to me today that Words of Waste combined with SDT could make a pretty strong instant-speed discard engine, especially if you have a draw engine like Bob or Arena. Since Bob and Top play so nicely together anyway, I thought it might be worth testing. Off the top of my head, the list could look something like this:


//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Nyxathid

//Spells
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek (could be Thoughtseize or Duress)
2 Funeral Charm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Words of Waste
4 Liliana's Caress
4 The Rack
2 Board Sweeper - Damnation/Disk?

//Lands
6-8 Fetches
10-12 Swamp


Obviously that could use a bit of testing/tweaking, but I think the Words/Top engine could be GG so long as you aren't way behind on board position, hence two slots for something to clear the board.

[Red_Death01]

The deck is still being tested by- myself... I've had little progress with it to be completely honiest. It gets rather frustrating at times... Instead of editting each new deck idea I've been rather stalking the forum until I can get one that is fine tuned. The latest installment looks like this:

As for the Words of Waste idea I feel it could be a rather risky one and not to consistent, If the decklist bellow falls flat I'll gladly give it a try though.

Sorcery (11)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Sign in Blood

Artifact (9)
3x Temple Bell
4x The Rack
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantment (4)
4x Liliana's Caress

Creature (10)
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
2x Tombstalker

Land (18)
14x Swamp
4x Wasteland

Instant (8)
4x Doom Blade
4x Funeral Charm

SB:
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Oppression
4x Sadistic Sacrament
4x Smallpox



You'll note theres open slots in the sideboard because after much testing I found Chalice of the Void so harzardous to myself I would end up actually letting my opponent win. I have yet to figure out a good replacement for it.


The new ideas you might see is using a more fine tuned creature base with the addition of Jitte making it a little more aggro heavy. Temple bell was added for [testing hasn't been done] card advantage and targets for over-stocked discard. Dark Rit was removed because I found it utterly useless 90% of the time past turn 2 and it was mostly just +3/+3 Nan pumps.

[EssKay]

Remember though, Words/Top is completely one-sided and able to hit their draw for the turn before they hit their main phase. WotC doesn't print instant-speed discard for a reason, so I think any way to create it is worth looking into. Along that line, the new blue Leyline might be worth checking out, I just like Words/Top better because Top is good on its own, and Words isn't completely useless if you already have a Bob/Arena in play, but I agree it seems a bit clunky. I'm actually thinking it might be better to go more Pox-like and run Arena over Bob, and Innocent Blood/Smallpox/Edict over the Hippies.

I think the main issue with any strategy that centers around discard is that it takes at least a few turns to empty their hand, and if you give up enough board position before that, you're boned.

[Red_Death01]

Since the Mainboard is obviously still in the works I feel we can all meet some common ground on filling in the 4 missing Sideoard slots. At the moment I'm thinking one of these:

Nevinyrral's Disk
Sphere of Resistance

The original slot was used as a precaution against burn mostly- but, I've also noticed in the extensive testing I've done that I have no real form of artifact or enchantment hate. [Which atleast where I play at theres extensive use of]

[mujadaddy]

WotC doesn't print instant-speed discard for a reason

Funeral Charm would like to have a word with you.

[heroicraptor]

Funeral Charm would like to have a word with you.

That was printed in Visions.

[mujadaddy]

That was printed in Visions.And Harry Potter was printed in England, what's your point?

[EssKay]

Funeral Charm would like to have a word with you.

Did you not notice them in my list? I'm not even sure what you're suggesting, run 20 Funeral Charms? Did you decide to put together green burn when you saw hornet sting, or do you just comb the forums looking for flawed statements to correct?

Here, for the record these are the instant-speed discard effects I could find:


Esper Charm
Funeral Charm
Haunting Hymn
Recoil
Sirocco
Stop That
Tsabo's Decree
Venarian Glimmer
Necrogen Spellbomb


Compared to the dozens of sorceries, EtB effects, and creature/artifact abilities with a "play only during your turn/as a sorcery" clause, it's a pretty small list, although there could be a few I missed.

As you may have gathered, what I should have said is "as a general rule, WotC doesn't print instant-speed discard, especially not reusable effects, and for good reason". It just doesn't read as well.

[mujadaddy]

Yes, they don't print MUCH instant speed discard, that is true. And I probably wouldn't have commented at all if I'd read your list, but I'd just hit the latest post button and only scrolled back two.

Did you decide to put together green burn when you saw hornet stingNo, my green burn deck runs Cyclone.

[EssKay]

Yes, they don't print MUCH instant speed discard, that is true. And I probably wouldn't have commented at all if I'd read your list, but I'd just hit the latest post button and only scrolled back two.
No, my green burn deck runs Cyclone.

Font of Mythos/Storm Seeker combo is clearly better.

[mujadaddy]

Font of Mythos/Storm Seeker combo is clearly better.

I like the way you think. Cyclone+Vigor+Birds of Paradise = a combo

...anyhow, on topic, I don't think you have enough threats. How much damage has the Rack/Liliana been dealing?

[EssKay]

No idea, MWSPlay isn't working for me at the moment. I hope to have that fixed in the next few days so I can actually try this out and see if Words is workable or just a nice thought.

[DarthVicious]

4 Phylactery Lich
3 Tombstalker
3 Abyssal Persecutor

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
3 Damnation
3 Words of Waste

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Geth's Grimoire

18 Swamp


Aggro style win conditions with discard based disruption and lockdown.
With Words and Grimoire in play you can play Top, and in their draw step they discard 1 card for each mana you spend. At instant speed. And you can keep them from playing anything but instants for the rest of the game. Grimoire also turns your discard spells into cantrips, unless they have an empty hand, of course, in which case you should be winning anyway.
Sword is the artifact the Lich covets, I have no doubt about that whatsoever. 7/7 Indestructible Pro-White/Black plus bonus effects with combat damage? Sign me up.
Damnation is the best board sweeper I could think of for monoblack, and it can be used along with Cabal Therapy to get rid of Persecutor FTW if necessary. And the Lich survives Damnation. He must be pretty evil...

Edited because I posted a decklist and thought of a better one later. Happens all the time.

[Red_Death01]

I like the way you think. Cyclone+Vigor+Birds of Paradise = a combo

...anyhow, on topic, I don't think you have enough threats. How much damage has the Rack/Liliana been dealing?

The Rack oddly enough averages around doing maybe 6 damage sometimes it never goes online other times I've done a total of 11 damage. Caress surprisingly has been doing an average of 13 when it goes online I have always atleast gotten 2 damage out of it one game I did 20 a courple of others I've seen 14 and 16s. Tombstalker is rarely swinging, Hypnotic hasn't seen enough testing to get an average, and Nan shade commonly is being blocked and dealt with by swords and paths and o rings and such.

So in all honiesty and surprise to even me- CARESS is my biggest threat on the board I've seen. when caress is out the opponent trys to top deck and then play everything they can to avoid discarding, if I play The Rack then my opponent will commonly try to destroy caress and deal with The Rack in an easier fashion.

I actually won a game once using solely caress as my damage, it took awhile but- I've done it. So.. to all the "get rid of caress it is bad!" people, ITS MY BIGGEST THREAT SO SU- I mean... Its a very good card!


@Darth: The problem with the list is it looks like it may rely heavily upon having multiples of cards out at the same time but, like I said to everyone else- if mine doesnt seem to be having progress I'll look into it.

[DarthVicious]

The only thing I can see it needing is more creature kill. I'd fill the sideboard with stuff like Smallpox, Innocent Blood, etc. And graveyard hate.

I was wondering how Liliana's Caress was working out, as soon as I saw that card I wondered how good it'd really be.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

@Darth: The problem with the list is it looks like it may rely heavily upon having multiples of cards out at the same time but, like I said to everyone else- if mine doesnt seem to be having progress I'll look into it.

Actually, multiples only add gas to the fire. Multiple Grimoires set up a nasty cumulative daisy-chain for Words, multiple Words might seem a little redundant yes, but multiple Persecutors and Tombstalkers, now that's how black wins.

I should know, I steamrolled Enchantress one game with three TS. He shat himself.

[Red_Death01]

I have rather exciting news for those that care!

2x Diabolic Edict
4x Doom Blade
4x Extirpate
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Liliana's Caress
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Nantuko Shade
1x Raven's Crime
7x Swamp
4x Marsh Flats
4x The Rack
3x Tombstalker
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Nevinyrral's Disk (Up for discussion/removal)
3x Oppression
4x Sadistic Sacrament


The mono black discard deck (which I've given the name "Death's Caress" to or as one of my friend has begun to call it "Deck that annoys me") has shown promising results!

Against Enchantress we still win as long as they don't lock us down with a full game of confinements and elephant grass cuppled with answers to our caresses and such.
I had the ability to also play against countertop and found it to be a rather difficult but, very playable deck and we can win! Be ready to have a lot of your spells countered being that we have a good portion of 1 drops and 2 drops.
Dredge... the legacy fear that everyone needs graveyard hate for because it exsists we also do well against! I went 4-0 against dredge (before we decided to sideboard) and then continued the streak after sideboarding. Now dredge is the deck I want to touch on the most since being that we discard their hand and they WANT that you may think to yourself "Oh god I'm screwed"... thats what I thought first game and then quickly found out that it isn't like that. Since Dredge wont usually have a hand at all Rack will hurt them each turn for an average of 2.5, when we lay Caress they're in for the hurt! We are forced to play a very tight defense or we'll fall flat line. Be ready to sac your own creatures to kill the bridges and get rid of Ichorids fast!.

The threats have turned from just enchantments to run a heavy creature threat coupled with enchantments/artifacts!

The only major problem I am currently having is developing a good response against my opponent's enchantments/artifacts themselves- while running pro-black I have little options and Disk seems almost to slow to me. If anyone can think of a replacement for it please suggest it!

I don't want to get a head of myself but, so far this deck has shown real potential.

[EssKay]

Just an update: I cracked 3 Liliana's Caress at an M11 release, so I may try to put this together IRL. It occurred to me that it may be worth splashing white to run E. Tutor, given that it can grab any of the lock pieces and all the wincons in my creatureless list. My main concern is getting steamrolled by threats dropped in the first few turns. Any opinions on what's the most effective out of Ensnaring Bridge, Damnation, Humility, Noetic Scales?

[Galroth]

Esskay - That depends on the rest of your deck composition. If you're going to run Enlightened Tutor, then Damnation is kicked out. You can't search for it. Humility is probably no good as it hurts your creatures just as much, plus it has the disadvantage of being off-color. If I was running a tool-box, I'd probably opt for Infernal Tutor with 1 Snuff Out for single card problems, and a 1 of Ensnaring Bridge (just because the CC is lower). Noetic Scales may help you get rid of problems permanently, but you can hurt Nyxathid or The Rack by refilling their hand, conversely it can also help if you've got Liliana's Caress out. In essence it's a more conditional card than Ensnaring Bridge, even though at times it's the better answer.

Red_Death01 - Glad your experience has been positive. I like how your threat composition is composed of creatures/enchantments/artifacts. I've had the same experience, the more versatile your threats, the less chance your opponent will find the 'right' answer.

Also noted that you dropped your toolbox approach with Infernal Tutor. Just wanted to hear your thoughts why. I've done the same, for the reason that I had too many clunky hands that I couldn't play a tempo oriented game with. But I was wondering about your experience and the reasons behind it.

Edit: The real problem that keeps Discard from being a solid Tier 2 deck has always been aggro. Test against Zoo. Most of the time I'm humbled whenever I think my discard deck is starting to look good. Unless things go perfect my builds have failed again and again. And I hate to say it, but it looks like the meta is tending towards Zoo heavy.

Edit 2: The other anti enchantment/artifact option is Powder Keg. Or you can splash. Honestly, I'm not sure committing space to Disk or Keg is worth it. It might be one of those where you just take your lumps and improve other match-ups with that sideboard space.

[Red_Death01]

@Esskay- Like Galroth said it heavily depends on your decklist, feel free to post it. The decklist hasn't been 100% confirmed so I wont be like an enitrely different deck.

@Galroth- I'll conquer the comments one at a time:

Toolbox question= The toolbox when I used it always seemed good and it gave me answers that I needed when I needed it but, it killed the consistency of the deck and using infernal tutor began to give me problems if I couldn't rely upon getting it hellbent. It was a very slow and painful process but, I eventually began testing it without a toolbox in and out. I found when I tested it without one the deck would be more consistent and more hard-line.

Powder Keg= Hmm, I completely forgot about that one. I could only remember engineered explosives which is an obvious no for a mono-color. The only problem is again it is a very slow removal. It may be my best choice though in the form of removal. Another problem is [my] meta tends to have a lot of enchantments mixed in and less to do with artifacts that pose a threat to me.

Against Zoo= I have yet to do any heavy testing in this department so I don't have any comments to share.

Other= To those testing it be careful how you test it and note what happens. I had a perfect example happen to me... I tested against someone 4 times and they managed to both deplete my hand by turn 2, get leyline and helm out turn 4 and win turn 5 with me not being able to do anything. I then played against enchantress and he got a ground seal turn 1, solitary confinement turn 3, and then began to combo off by turn 5-6. Sometimes you'll notice that it doesnt matter what deck your playing. You sometimes are screwed royally when they get gold hands.

[EssKay]

I was actually thinking of a creatureless list, but the E. Tutor Idea just occurred to me. Without testing/tweaking, here's a basic idea:

[cards]
//Discard
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Duress

//Damage
4 Liliana's Caress
4 The Rack

//Lock
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Dark Ritual
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Words of Waste
1 Geth's Grimoire
4 Enlightened Tutor

//Sweepers
2 Damnation

//Land
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
12 Swamp

[Red_Death01]

A couple massive problems I see at the moment is limited removal of what does hit play. In my opinion Duress isn't a good discard unless you can deal with the creatures they do play fairly easily. I also only see 2 core threats (Carees/Rack). You'll probably also have to up the count of fetch lands by 3 or 4. If your dead set on splashing white Ghostly Prison may be a good answer but, the list at the moment looks a little chaotic to me. I'm not sure how consistent and potent it'll be just by looking at it.

As a couple of people have mentioned in this thread and in my numerous play tests of splashes. I believe it would be best to just keep it pure black.

[EssKay]

Yeah it's definitely got some issues, more an idea than a playable list really.

[Red_Death01]

I'm getting back in after a ten year hiatus and wanted to post this deck and get some feedback. I'm new to the site, so I don't want to start a new thread; this one seems appropriate. Let me know if I should be posting this someplace else.

Instants (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Smother

Sorceries (11)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Creatures (16)
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Nyxathid
4 Phylactery Lich
2 Tombstalker

Artifacts (7)
4 The Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Land (18)
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Swamps

I wanted to use the Lich because it's new and can be potentially cast on the first turn. This deck probably looks amateurish, but any feedback would be appreciated. Again, let me know if this post would be better placed someplace else--I'm new here.

Well, seeing as how this doesnt appear to focus on discard, it looks more of a MBA deck. :/ I would suggest posting in either MBA or a new thread.

-Welcome to The Source.

[berksowl]

I recently got sort of kicked out of the Pox deck thread for posting about a deck with just 2 Pox and no Smallpox, lots of discard spells, creature removal, and both creatures and Planeswalkers (Liliana of the Veil, and/or Liliana Vess). Maybe it wasn't a classic Pox deck, but its definitely not a Mono Black Aggro deck either (unless I'm misinterpreting one of those three words). I think that without Pox, it's just a Black Discard deck. And now I've tried it without Pox.

I notice this thread has been dormant since before Liliana of the Veil hit the scene, so I'm wondering if I can help breath new life into it with this deck:

Creatures
2 Dark Confidant
4 Nyxathid
2 Tombstalker

Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil

Spells
3 Blackmail
3 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Liliana's Caress
2 Phyrexian Arena
4 Smother
4 The Rack

Land
2 Cabal Coffers
20 Swamp
2 Wasteland

I've removed Pox from my deck with the reasoning that sacrificing my own creatures is less of an acceptable trade-off when I'm running relatively few of them but I also expect those creatures to do major damage. My Nyxathid and Tombstalker gel with discard, but I'll not be casting spells or Planeswalkers to create token creatures, and I won't be reanimating dead ones. My Dark Confidants could be sacrificed, but they're definitely better on the board than in my graveyard.

And the life loss of Pox doesn't seem like a good fit with Phyrexian Arena and/or Dark Confidant. So I'll go just with 4 Smother and 2 Ghastly Demise.

I had played Megrim in this deck, but Liliana's Caress seems better. Tell me if you think the "deals damage" wording of Megrim is worth the extra casting cost -- but I doubt it is.

And lastly, in terms of the meta, the sideboard seems all important. Creature removal could be swapped out for graveyard hate or more likely cards to target Maverick or Stoneblade or Explorer decks. So cards like Dystopia, Massacre, Perish, Extirpate for the green and/or white and/or blue decks that seem to dominate legacy just now. Gate to Phyrexia, Tormod's Crypt, or Planar Void for graveyard hate. Or Forsaken Wastes for dealing with Epic Storm. Or possibly Imp's Mischief and Death Wish also in the sideboard somehow.

Any thoughts on whether a deck like this could be competitive in legacy, where so many non-basic land options make it possible for three-color decks to succeed?

[abetman]

I'm not 100% positive if this is the thread I've read a couple of years ago. But as I remember the thread starter was running Noetic Scales and/or Underworld Dreams. I am trying to rebuild my creaturless discard based deck and this thread seems to be the best place to discuss is it in.

I was planning on using Small Pox but I don't have a final list yet. I'll be posting it once I actually come up with a working version of the deck.

The problem that this deck has is it's inability to deal with fast aggro. You can discard them a couple of times but once they have 2-3 critters without being answered, we're done for.

I still haven't tested Infest though. Damnation cmc @4 is too high IMO.

[berksowl]

I'm not 100% positive if this is the thread I've read a couple of years ago. But as I remember the thread starter was running Noetic Scales and/or Underworld Dreams. I am trying to rebuild my creaturless discard based deck and this thread seems to be the best place to discuss is it in.

I was planning on using Small Pox but I don't have a final list yet. I'll be posting it once I actually come up with a working version of the deck.

The problem that this deck has is it's inability to deal with fast aggro. You can discard them a couple of times but once they have 2-3 critters without being answered, we're done for.

I still haven't tested Infest though. Damnation cmc @4 is too high IMO.

Noetic Scales is a good idea, though I wonder if it would work as well as hoped in Legacy these days. A discard deck needs to be on its game to bring a player down to one card in hand within the first few turns. But there's still plenty of 1/1 creatures in Legacy that can wreak havoc in lots of ways. And rather than infest, Night of Souls' Betrayal seems like a good way to combat these creatures.

The reason I gave up on my Pox deck is that Pox and Smallpox are doing too many things. To support them properly, to take advantage of them, a deck needs creature removal (or at least a way to capitalize on the creature removal from Pox/Smallpox), it needs land removal (or a way to capitalize on land removal), it needs discard spells (or a way to capitalize on them), and it needs a way to win the life-loss game. I don't see how to do all of those things in one deck that is reliable in Legacy.

What I do see is that a discard deck supported by Liliana of the Veil (and perhaps also Liliana Vess) and some creatures can be successful. Nyxathid is the obvious choice for a discard deck, and it can be spectacularly deadly when you've stripped an opponent's hand and board. Tombstalker and Dark Confidant make sense to me too, for different reasons.

But the focus is Nyxathid. In a deck like mine, that plays 4x The Rack and 2x Liliana's Caress, Nyxathid is the third damage dealer, and by far the fastest and most deadly.

[abetman]

This is the list I'm currently goldfishing. I don't have a specific sideboard yet since io haven't tested it against other decks, but am looking at putting in graveyard hate and board sweepers.



Land:11
10 swamp
1 bojuka bog

Artifact:15
4 chrome mox
4 lotus petal
2 anvil of bogardan
3 the rack
2 ensnaring bridge

Spells:34
4 mind burst
4 hymn to tourach
4 horrifying revelation
4 mind wrench
1 raven's crime
1 haunting echoes
3 dark ritual

3 liliana's caress
2 underworld dreams
1 quest for the nihil stone
2 necrogen mists
2 bottomless pit
2 oppression



I know the land count seems too low,but that's what the artifact mana is for. Will need to test it in an actual game to get results.

The aim is for you to go into top deck mode locking your opponent with constant discard effects and dishing out damage via caress,quest,dreams or the rack.

[berksowl]

@abetman...

What's the purpose of the Wrench Mind?

I like the idea of Anvil of Bogardan and Ensnaring Bridge, and Mind Burst seems like it would work well with this deck, where you're also discarding and milling through your library.

Haunting Echoes is an interesting way to lock out an opponent late in the game, and I imagine it would be successful if it resolves.

The combination of win-cons seems like it could be slow to get started. You certainly have plenty of discard spells, to delay your opponent's game plan. But the permanents you need to get on the board are by and large more expensive to cast than those of the better legacy decks at the moment. So I wonder if this deck would be too slow.

It seems like Underworld Dreams doesn't belong in this deck. Is there a way this hurts them more than you?

I like this idea though, and I'm curious to hear how it performs. A sideboard that can clear the board of 1 and 2cc creatures would to useful:

Dystopia
Night of Souls' Betrayal
Massacre

[abetman]

@berksowl

The deck is kind of slow, it takes time to set up and is having a hard time with early creatures... You will also find yourself needing draw effects due to emptying your hand too quickly.

Undereworld Dreams only does damage to your opponents. I don't really understand what you meant on your post there. Dreams works wonders specially if you run it with Teferi's Puzzlebox.

Since the main theme is discard, I would want the opponent to be on top deck mode as quickly as possible. Wrench Mind functions as Hymn to Tourach 5-8, although sometimes they are able to avoid disgarding 2 cards by discarding an artifact.

For crowd control I was actually going to try Infest. I am also considering Damnation and Tainted Aether.

I would also love to see a Liliana of the Veil on this build, however I can't afford her yet. I've yet to test my current build on established decks to get results and provide feedback.

[berksowl]

Undereworld Dreams only does damage to your opponents. I don't really understand what you meant on your post there. Dreams works wonders specially if you run it with Teferi's Puzzlebox.



You're right of course. I mis-read the card -- though I still don't think it's the most efficient use for those spots in your deck. I see what you're trying to do though in doling out punishment once they're in top-deck mode.



I would also love to see a Liliana of the Veil on this build, however I can't afford her yet. I've yet to test my current build on established decks to get results and provide feedback.

Liliana Vess is quite nice too, and more reasonably priced (though higher cc).

I ran my last deck list (from a few posts ago) in a local Legacy tournament last night and went 2-2 (2nd week in a row going 2-2 with this deck). I went 2-1 against Burn decks, and lost badly to a DreadStill deck.

Here's what I'd run if I were playing it again tonight:


Creatures
2 Dark Confidant
4 Nyxathid
2 Tombstalker

Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil

Spells
1 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Smother
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Phyrexian Arena
2 Snuff Out
4 The Rack

Land
2 Bojuka Bog
19 Swamp
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Duress
2 Dystopia
2 Engineered Plague
2 Defense Grid
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Massacre
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Tormod's Crypt

[abetman]

I like your sideboard. Me like defense grid.

Why not run Hypnotic Specters? They do help with the discard and do damage overtime, since you have 4 Racks MD and would want Nyxhatid as your finisher you would want your opponents hand size to be always on check.

Isn't Night of Souls Betrayal too expensive for 4 mana? Don't you also find it insufficient, being a legendary enchantment? I know -1/-1 does a lot, but what about instances when your opponents are playing x/2 creatures. They still survive. It also kills your Confidants.

What about running Dread of Night if you're just concerned about killing off tokens? That also goes for the Massacre, wouldn't Infest be better since it costs 1 mana lower?

Just my opinion though.
But I do like Dystopia and Defense Grid.

[berksowl]

Night of Souls' Betrayal is handy. I've run one of them, and then thanked my lucky stars for actually drawing it. So now I run two. In a meta dominated by 1/1 creatures that do neat stuff other than attack, it's a solid card to have in a deck. And I only run two Dark Confidants -- though I'd run one NoSB even if I ran four Bobs. And sometimes I want to kill off a Bob, or sacrifice one for a Cabal Therapy, so NoSB doesn't really conflict with it.

[berksowl]

I also get so torn between running Liliana Vess or not. The casting cost is a bit steep, but the discard and tutoring are so helpful in this deck.

[abetman]

Vess' cmc is too high. It's either you're already ahead or you're almost dead when you get to cast her. But she's great when she sticks though.

I've also tried running Scepter of Fugue but it's quite a mana sink, but if you have spare mana on your turn, why not?

[berksowl]

I've been playing The Gate lately at a weekly local Legacy tournament, and I've been working up to morphing that into Deadguy Ale. I am hopeful that Deadguy will be a more balanced and reliable deck in the local meta, and in general.

But I seemed to have more success with a Discard deck than with The Gate. I've been testing the following list, and so far it's been good:


Main

4 Nyxathid
4 Dark Confidant

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Blackmail
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Skeletal Scrying

4 Liliana's Caress
4 Quest for the Nihil Stone
4 The Rack

2 Bojuka Bog
21 Swamp

Sideboard
3 Snuff Out
2 Dystopia
3 Extirpate
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Pithing Needle


No creature removal in the main, but that means we can play more discard spells, and more cards to gain advantage from it (4 each of The Rack, Liliana's Caress, and Quest for the Nihil Stone.

For discard spells, there's a whopping 12 (plus Liliana of the Veil, which when resolved has a discard effect that basically can't be countered). The discard spells are all ones that won't come up empty. Hymn to Tourach is a 2-for-1, and it can get lands. Thoughtseize can't get lands, but at least its less conditional than Inquisition of Kozilek or Duress. And Blackmail, which doesn't get much love, is great if your opponent has three or fewer cards in hand -- and it will never swing and miss no matter how many cards they have in hand.

Only four creatures: Bobs for card advantage. Nyxathids because they're a great value in this deck, and its easy to get a 4/4 or better creature very fast with them.

Best of all, this deck seems really fast. 18 1cc cards, 12 2cc, and 7 3cc. It's fast, with draw effects in Bob as well as 2x Skeletal Scrying. ...But I wonder if 2 Dark Rituals would be better than the Skeletal Scrying.

So am I just getting lucky with my testing? Or does this have potential? It's not like it hasn't been tried, but I'm not sure this sort of "all in" commitment to discard over all other forms of disruption has been prevalent. And it could be that with Liliana, a deck like this is the way to go. But please tell me if I'm deluding myself.

[nedleeds]

So am I just getting lucky with my testing? Or does this have potential?

Discard is absolutely luck dependent. You have no deck manipulation, and are pretty much at the mercy of your top deck. But games where you go:

- win die roll
- swamp -> duress effect
- swamp -> hymn take your 2 lands / relevant cards
- swamp -> huge threat

will be successful endeavors ...

[berksowl]

You have no deck manipulation, and are pretty much at the mercy of your top deck.

It would be easy to substitute the Skeletal Scrying for 2 Sensei's Divining Top, and replace about six Swamps with fetchlands.

[abetman]

@berksowl
Don't you find 21 lands too much? I think you should up the creature count and put in Hypnotic Specters main deck.

I also think that sdt's and fetches would be good.

[berksowl]

@berksowl
Don't you find 21 lands too much? I think you should up the creature count and put in Hypnotic Specters main deck.

I also think that sdt's and fetches would be good.

21 lands may well be too many. But if I add in some creatures, I don't think Hyppies would be my first pick. The Bobs can be defensive if they need to be. The Nyxathids are 3cc and better than the Hyppies in terms of efficiency of cc vs strength. And if discard has been successful, my opponent won't have any flyers attacking.

So I'd rather go with Tombstalker, which after a few turns would not cost any more to cast than the Hyppies.

[MirrorMask]

I don't have the patience to check all the above comments but i will comment on your deck as i used to have a VERY similar deck to yours almost 10 years ago.

Dark rituals : completely useless card. It gives you speed that you don't need. You will empty their hands anyway in a couple of turns. So (-4 dark rituals)

hymn to tourach/duress/thoughtseize/raven's crime/inquisition of kozilek : Best of the best Use them, love them. They kick ass!

Cabal therapy : Its bad . very bad. You don't have the ability to use it over and over again and you are probably going to fail the first time too.

Skeletal scrying : Seems good actually. If you can withstand the life loss go for it.

Phyrexian arena : awesomeness

Nevinyrral's Disk: You don't use it but its the only way to deal with a problematic ,non creature permanent in mono black dekcs.

quest for the nihil stone : Bad choice. If you draw it late then you can't use it.

the rack: Its a nice card but I never liked it as it is slow and you cannot achieve a complete lock down with this deck. Especially if the opponent can draw extra cards.

dark confidant: Pretty good but is vulnerable to removal and you will be in need of extra cards that you won't have. Removal is extremely common in legacy. He doesn't stand a chance.

Liliana's caress: better than megrim but still not that good

smother, victim of night/go for the throat/snuff out/ dismember : All very good

Ensnaring bridge : Nice combo but was very slow and i always hated it.
Tempting wurm/nimble mongoose/tarmogoyf: You play mono black but if you ever consider adding a second color then you can safely choose from this list. All are awesome in this deck.

Nyxathid/ Tombstalker : These mother f****s are goddamn beasts in this deck.

wasteland : Never tested it because i didn't have any back then but it looks good.

lake of the dead: Only 1 if it is ever needed. It isn't a powerhouse and certainly slows you down when you sacrifice swamps for it. If it gets wasted its even worse.

Liliana of the veil: Seems very good

Hypnotic specter : AVOID HIM AT ALL COSTS! UNDERPOWERED CRAP!!! Its isn't what it used to be. Poor hyppie...

[berksowl]

I'd rather have a Turn 4 Blackmail than a Turn 4 Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek. With this discard deck, if things are going well, most of your discard spells will be resolving when your opponent has three or fewer cards in hand. In this way, Blackmail is an extremely efficient card for a deck like this.

I'd probably go with two Bobs and two Arenas if I were to take this deck to a tournament.

I've had mixed success with Quest for the Nihil Stone. The Rack, on the other hand, has been a consistent win con. I'd much sooner go without Liliana's Caress than The Rack. I still think you need to play 4 x The Rack in a Mono-Black Discard deck, or else you'll need some different ways to win, and then you might as well play a Pox version or something.

[Hardcore]

Noone has mentioned Raven's crime yet... (Run 3-4)
I tried build a pure discard pox, with Quest and Caress. But it was very inconsistent. Sometimes you could do like 26 damage over two turns, and in other games you was wondering what was wrong with the deck. Having creatures should help, but... the concept is probably not good enough.:eyebrow:

[MirrorMask]

I did mention raven's crime. My post was long and probably you missed it. I prefer an aggressive approach with creatures than a controlish discard deck that needs ensnaring bridge to function. The rack isnt bad. Maybe the result would be better if you combine it with creature attacks.

Just a sample decklist:

Creatures(11)
4xNyxathid
4xTombstalker
3xNantuko shade

Spells(31)
4xThoughtseize
4xHymn to tourach
4xInquisition of kozilek
2xDuress
4xSnuff out
4xGo for the throat
2xInnocent blood
3xPhyrexian arena
3xNecrogen Mists

Plainswalkers(1)
1xLiliana of the veil


By no means this list is optimized. Just a quick thought.

[Galroth]

Looking for advice. I've got about 54 cards I'm certain about running, but the last 6 slots I've been deliberating over. I'm interested to hear opinions.


// MANA (23)
19x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual

// DISCARD (16)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Raven's Crime
4x Hymn to Tourach

// THREATS (15)
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction
4x Nyxathid
3x Reanimate


So what else do I run? My concerns: My ground game against creatures is pretty weak. Prior to turn three I won't be dropping a critter. My threat density is less that I'd like. I've been considering basically more creatures and/more removal. Tombstalker, Snuff Out, Innocent Blood, Dark Confidant, Damnation? If I can keep my CC low, then I'd consider dropping a land also and opening up an additional slot.

[whatwas]

The last time I've heard of a mono-black discard deck working well was in Odyssey block where everyone discarded cards anyways. It focused on the core set that was out which had megrim and grafted skullcap+ensaring bridge combo. Its killing creature was nantuko shade+cabal coffers and cards like soul feast. I played it with success back then. I'd like to see a mono-black deck start winning in legacy. But I feel that's asking a lot. Maybe with gatecrash coming out soon some dimir card could be used to make U/B discard work? I loved playing dimir at the sealed events but since my boros card were so awesome I switched after G1. I have a mono-black discard sitting it a deck box I sometime mess with at legacy events. But never played it competitively.
4 duress
3 Inquisition of kozilek
4 hymns
3 blackmail
2 funeral charm

4 the rack
2 grafdiggers cage
2 uba mask
1 dream salvage
3 dark ritual
2 tops
3 diabolic edict

4 nyxathid
2 nezumi shortfang

1 bojuka bog
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
12 swamp

One of these day I'll play it and post the results here. But for now I'll just play Mud lol

[MirrorMask]

Looking for advice. I've got about 54 cards I'm certain about running, but the last 6 slots I've been deliberating over. I'm interested to hear opinions.


// MANA (23)
19x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual

// DISCARD (16)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Raven's Crime
4x Hymn to Tourach

// THREATS (15)
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction
4x Nyxathid
3x Reanimate


So what else do I run? My concerns: My ground game against creatures is pretty weak. Prior to turn three I won't be dropping a critter. My threat density is less that I'd like. I've been considering basically more creatures and/more removal. Tombstalker, Snuff Out, Innocent Blood, Dark Confidant, Damnation? If I can keep my CC low, then I'd consider dropping a land also and opening up an additional slot.


You certainly need 6+ creature removals in the form of : Innocent blood, Go for the throat, Smallpox, Geth's verdict. You will also need around 4 card drawing spells. Choose from Phyrexian arena, Dark Confidant and even Sensei's Divining Top. If you splash green Sylvan Library.

Furthermore, you don't need Shrieking Afflictions at all. You have 8 threats already + reanimates which could be (and probably should be) something else like Vampire Nighthawk , Bloodghast or Death's Shadow. Reanimate is only relevant if your opponent has something worthwhile to target. Your own creatures will probably get exiled instead.

[Sughayyer]

Why raven's crime if there's no life from the loam to support it? Loam could also enable an alternate kill (syphon life for example) and makes bloodghast better. That said, maybe it's just out of the range of this thread, since it's specifically Mono Black Discard...

[lost_ronin_soul]

I don't have the patience to check all the above comments but i will comment on your deck as i used to have a VERY similar deck to yours almost 10 years ago.

Dark rituals : completely useless card. It gives you speed that you don't need. You will empty their hands anyway in a couple of turns. So (-4 dark rituals)

Tempting wurm/nimble mongoose/tarmogoyf: You play mono black but if you ever consider adding a second color then you can safely choose from this list. All are awesome in this deck.

Hypnotic specter : AVOID HIM AT ALL COSTS! UNDERPOWERED CRAP!!! Its isn't what it used to be. Poor hyppie...


Dark rituals are the only way to make spector potentially work, i like oona's prowler because its fast and if your opponent activates the discard they are still losing cards in hand....he also flies so you can equip it with jitte. entomb can get ravens crime and blood gast so entomb might help

[Galroth]

Why raven's crime if there's no life from the loam to support it? Loam could also enable an alternate kill (syphon life for example) and makes bloodghast better. That said, maybe it's just out of the range of this thread, since it's specifically Mono Black Discard...

In the early turns, Thoughtseize and Inquisition are much better for the targeted removal of your opponent's key spells. But late game, Raven's Crime is hands down the best discard spell. Once you've depleted your opponent's hand (ideally by turn 3 or 4), you need to keep their hand size at 0 to ensure that The Rack, Shrieking Affliction, and Nxyathid are doing optimum damage. At this point in the game, targeted discarded spells are not as good as reusable discard spells. Your mana curve tops out at 3cc. Each land drop you see after 3, is actually just fuel for Raven's Crime.

[Lemnear]

Dark rituals are the only way to make spector potentially work, i like oona's prowler because its fast and if your opponent activates the discard they are still losing cards in hand....he also flies so you can equip it with jitte. entomb can get ravens crime and blood gast so entomb might help

there's no Point in playing spectre over Liliana 2.0 at all

[hugh4893]

I know this post is dated but i think this deck when modified the right way with some newer cards can make this a new staple mono deck alongside burn. I've been playing around with a mono black discard for awhile. I started with pox but was displeased with its consistency, it lost to a lot of different things when the draws were bad. A deck should be able to at least fend some people off when your draws aren't ideal (IE Burn is made for their draws to be good). This deck presented is kinda wonky i would say. It's good at the core but it lacks some components to make it consistent and needs to be updated for the cards that haven't been taken into account since.

This is what i ended up building:

Sorcery(19):

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Inquisition of Kozilek

4x Raven's Crime (this card as a 4 of makes it consistent, when you only need 3 lands max and you get a bunch of mana on your draws, if you play this card one you can do infinite retraces to keep your strategy going. )

4x Sinkhole
3x Smallpox

Instant(4): Turn 1 lili, ensnaring bridge, or phyrexian arena? sounds cool bro.
4x Dark Ritual

Planeswalker:

3x Liliana of the Veil (Maybe even 4x, and drop one small pox, this card makes the deck consistent because it's the shit.)

Enchantment:
2x Phyrexian Arena (draw Condition)
4x Shrieking Affliction (another Rack because this deck doesn't run creatures due to Ensnaring Bridge)

Artifact:
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x The Rack (this card is awesome)

Land:
3x Bojuka Bog (for Graveyard hate mainboard, anything that pulls from the graveyard is your worst matchup.)
17x Swamp

Sideboard (this is primarily for my meta, but i think it's solid):
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Dystopia
4x Mindbreak Trap
3x Pithing Needle
3x Powder Keg

[hugh4893]

Alright I know this thread hasn't seen light in a few months, so lets bring it back.

I started getting back into magic in april, and since then I knew a few things:

1. Legacy is where i want to be.
2. I want to play mono
3. I want to play Black
4. I want my skills to reflect the resilience of my deck
5. I want the deck to be able to perform at face value.

I started off building pox, but I ran into problems with it. I actually have come to think that pox is such an inconsistent deck that the believers of such a strategy are lost in a cloud of ideal situations and trying to cushion its pitfalls instead of supporting its strengths (the Most Recent winning Star Ciy Open Winner - Punishing Jund/Pox list played to its strengths, but it is a 3 color deck that avoided such pitfalls, and I wanted it mono)

My buddy that got me back into magic, and competitive magic, and is a very skilled burn player, all he plays is burn in tournies. With him as a playtest partner I learned that to go mono, you need to stick to a sound strategy that the character of the color you play is strongest in.

I tried building a mixed strategy pox deck that hated on fetches with Ankh of Mishra as a win condition alongside discard
The Rack Sinkhole Smallpox Ghost Quarter Wasteland but it just didn't perform. but I noticed that I could win the game if i got the nuts draws with discard and the rack, so after tha failed abysmally, I decided to go pure discard.

After many a testing and some recent posting on the Pox forum, I decided to completely drop ALL pox effects from my deck, and this is the resulting List:

Main:

2x bojuka bog
4x ensnaring bridge
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
3x inquisition of kozilek
4x liliana of the veil
2x necrogen mists
4x shrieking affliction
4x sign in blood
17x Swamp
4x The Rack
4x thoughtseize
4x wrench mind


Sideboard:

2x engineered plague
4x leyline of the void
2x perish
4x pithing needle
2x ratchet bomb
1x zuran orb


There are many reasons I have the cards I have. I welcome any at all questions and I truly believe this list can and will perform, I hope the other people on this Forum will come back to this list and wonder the reasoning behind it.

[ween]

I've always loved the Mono Black Discard style of play.
One of my favourite decks was essentially this, but with Megrim/Bottomless Pit and Nether Spirit/Contamination.
The new card from M15, Waste Not, looks very cool also.

[FTW]

I started getting back into magic in april,

I want to play mono

I started off building pox

, but I ran into problems with it. I actually have come to think that pox is such an inconsistent deck that the believers of such a strategy are lost in a cloud of ideal situations

Welcome to Legacy!

Sorry to sidetrack, but Pox is in the "Established thread" and Monoblack discard is in the "Developmental" section for a reason. Although monoblack Pox hasn't taken 1st place in a while, there have been a number of top16 Pox finishes at major events even over the past 2 years. There are plenty of reasons to choose to play monoblack discard over Pox (playstyle preference, meta choice, card availibility, etc.), but picking it because "Pox is such an inconsistent deck" and claiming the believers are deluded is pretty misinformed.

I was wondering where you were coming from in the other thread. Now it makes sense. You've been back in Magic for less than a year, new to Legacy, generally a new player (preference for mono color), and Pox was where you started. That's all understandable. Pox is a challenging deck to play correctly. It can be a strong contender (esp since Liliana's printing), but if you pilot it poorly it can be outright awful. Monoblack discard should be much more forgiving to the new player, a more linear strategy.

Suggestions I got from reading this thread:
Oppression -- This card looks interesting. Necrogen Mists is probably more consistent for fueling The Rack, but this is basically an auto-lose to any combo deck.

Nyxathid -- Seems strong in general, obviously bad with Bridge. It would be interesting to run 3-4 of these (or Tombstalker) in the SB as an alternate win condition against decks with few creatures. As the opponent boards out all creature removal and boards in artifact/enchantment hate, you can board out Bridges for these dudes and have a ticket to win faster.

Infernal Tutor -- This could help (more than Sign in Blood) to find key cards like Liliana, Racks, removal spells, etc. You have no card quality control right now and a few tutors might really increase the consistency of the deck.

[hugh4893]

Welcome to Legacy!

Sorry to sidetrack, but Pox is in the "Established thread" and Monoblack discard is in the "Developmental" section for a reason. Although monoblack Pox hasn't taken 1st place in a while, there have been a number of top16 Pox finishes at major events even over the past 2 years. There are plenty of reasons to choose to play monoblack discard over Pox (playstyle preference, meta choice, card availibility, etc.), but picking it because "Pox is such an inconsistent deck" and claiming the believers are deluded is pretty misinformed.

I was wondering where you were coming from in the other thread. Now it makes sense. You've been back in Magic for less than a year, new to Legacy, generally a new player (preference for mono color), and Pox was where you started. That's all understandable. Pox is a challenging deck to play correctly. It can be a strong contender (esp since Liliana's printing), but if you pilot it poorly it can be outright awful. Monoblack discard should be much more forgiving to the new player, a more linear strategy.

Suggestions I got from reading this thread:
Oppression -- This card looks interesting. Necrogen Mists is probably more consistent for fueling The Rack, but this is basically an auto-lose to any combo deck.

Nyxathid -- Seems strong in general, obviously bad with Bridge. It would be interesting to run 3-4 of these (or Tombstalker) in the SB as an alternate win condition against decks with few creatures. As the opponent boards out all creature removal and boards in artifact/enchantment hate, you can board out Bridges for these dudes and have a ticket to win faster.

Infernal Tutor -- This could help (more than Sign in Blood) to find key cards like Liliana, Racks, removal spells, etc. You have no card quality control right now and a few tutors might really increase the consistency of the deck.

I was just expressing my opinion from my experience with the deck. Naturally people with more experience will perform more with the deck. Experience > Deck Choices. I honestly think from a lot of testing that the deck needs a lot of support from other colors because the resources it needs to be consistent just aren't there. Not saying it's completely terrible, just speaking from my experience. Obviously people with more experience may have more grounds to say, but that's what I have found, 1st amendment.

Now to your suggestions:

Oppression: Not good. By the time I have the mana to cast it I already have the game won. a hymn or a wrench mind turn 2 and a Iok Turn 1 seals me the game and then oppresion only hurts me, where as necrogen hits all decks for my win con lock.

Nyxathid. super good card, but it takes away the bridge, and bridge hits too many decks to be able to sacrifice for a turn 4 swing that sometimes wins fast that doesn't lock the game like ensnaring does, in an aggro style list it could work without racks as a win con and without ensnaring. that uses discard as an early game control and then swings with a bunch.

Infernal Tutor: sign in blood is used primarily in the 2-3 turn to try and grab something while i have something in my hand that is also useful. I very seldom use sign in blood post turn 4 unless i am looking for a lili/necrogen, which i usually have by then with the new addition. especially post sideboard when i need anything to hit their permanents on the board.


I welcome your input, but I am sticking to my guns against the monoblack pox lists.

[hugh4893]

Well, I went 2-4 in a 45 person, 6 round swiss at MythicGames in Elmira, NY.

Round 1:

1-2 against omnitell
I got him the first game with a nuts opening hand, ended up landing 2 racks and a shrieking the turn after I empty his hand and he dies soon afer.

Game 2:
I have 2 thoughtsiezes and an inquisition but he has the brainstorms to hide the combo and makes one of them take nothing by hiding his cards on top of library, and shows me a hand of all land. he turn 4's show and tell,(I lay ensnaring bridge) and plays enter the infinite and then finds laboratory maniac. (I know he was playing Emrakul)

Game 3:
It was close, I had a his hand being emptied and doing damage for awhile, and got him down to 5, but then he was able to keep 2 cards in hand as I didn't land a liliana/necrogen, and drew a land for a turn, He top decks an intuition for enter the infinite, show and tells omniscience and enters the infinite, and boom I lose.


Round 2:

2-1 vs. RUG Delver

Definitely the most fun I had all day.

Game 1:
I didn't know what I was playing against so I kept a very discard heavy hand with no creature control. He races with a delver and a goyf and I draw NO creature removal/bridges and he just is able to counter my discard so my racks don't do any damage.

Game 2: I side in Perish, pithing needle, and zuran orb, taking out sign in blood and thoughtsieze to stop the pain for myself. ( I never hit any of them lol)

I play around spell pierce/daze and am able to kill his creatures until his hand is emptied, I start pinging him and he slows the game down with an ancient grudge, then I get a shrieking affliction online and upkeep the discard to win the game.

Game 3:
crazy fun game.
I play around spell pierce again for innocent bloods and I make him use his counters on my hymns/wrench mind. I get rid of a goyf with a lili and he bolts her, he gets another goyf on and I nerf him with a bojuka bog and innocent blood it the same turn, a few turns of doing 6 damage with 2 racks while he top decks bolts to me in the face. gets a goose loose and I get my other bojuka and nerf it down to 1/1 before my racks win the race. I win with 8 life.


Round 3:
0-2 vs The Epic Storm

Game 1: I hit him with some wrench minds but he discards a lotus petal from one and a lion's eye from another. turn 3 he pops and hits an ad nauseuem, draws what he needs and tendrils me.

Game 2: I side out innocent blood and ensnaring bridge for engineered plague, pithing needle, and ratchet bomb. i have a great early game, and he is forced to pop with a less than ideal hand and goes for empty the warrens with 4 goblins online. I ratchet bomb them after they do 4 damage, putting me at 14 from a thoughtsieze. I upkeep the discard with 2 more thoughtsieze, putting me at 10. The next few turns, I get him down to 4 with racks, and then draw nothing but land, racks, and goblin hate for 6 turns, he's able to build a hand after I finally get a necrogen and lili online and tendrils me for 10.

I was extremely angry at that, There are some changes to my deck because of this and omnitell's matchup.

Round 4:
0-2 Goblins.

Game 1: I see a goblin lackey and automatically go "oh sh**", I innocent blood it before he can use it's ability, but he's got goblins for days. I end up landing an ensnaring bridge and hymning myself to empty my hand when he gets me down to 2, until I draw a thoughtsieze and he has two 1/1's on the board, so I cast it to kill myself.

Gmae 2: I side in engineered plague and zuran orb. I get an innocent blood and set up an engineered to slow his play before getting an ensnaring online, but he has too many cards in hand for me to do any damage. I top deck a zuran orb, but then he lands a shattering spree and I lose in 2 turns.

Decided I needed some Sideboard changes once the tourney was over after this matchup.

Round 5:
0-2 Reanimator
Between this, dredge, and Shardless BUG, this probably is my worst matchup. If they run Iona, I just lose.

Game 1: He turn 2 Entomb/exhumes an Iona, I get a bridge online the next turn, trying to think if there is anyway I can get around an Iona, then he plays snapcaster and some other utility blue creatures that start pinging me, knwing the end is nighe, I scoop.

Game 2: I side in Leyline of the void.

I Mull to 3. Never see a Leyline, and I never see a hand that has a thoughtsieze/inquisition and a land.

he turn 2's me again with Iona and I scoop, with 40 min left in the round.

Round 6:
2-1 Punishing Jund (a newer player than myself to the game)

Game 1: I am able to remove maelstrom pulse and an abrupt decay with 2 thoughtsieze, and he's playing his own discard so it slows my game down. He gets a deathrite shaman online and goes around an ensnaring bridge while I end up pinging him with racks. I get him down to 3, but he out races me with a second deathrite and I lose the turn it can activate.

Game 2: I side in pithing needles cann't remember if there was anything else.

he surigical extracts my thoughtsiezes, because he didn't have another play, I pithing needle deathrite but he abrupt decays it, and I get my racks online while he has a Bob and a deathrite. The racks pop off the stack before bob, and he takes an accelerated amount of damage his deathrite can't keep up with while I upkeep discard and choose not try and allow him to choose to sac his bob. He gets me down to 8 with deathrite before He dies from his own bob when he is at 3 and tops a liliana.

Game 3: I pithing his deathrite and it sticks, while I land an ensnaring bridge against his goyf, he hits a punishing fire but I bojuka bog it, he can't do any damage and I win from upkeeping discard with a single rack online.


I changed my list quite a bit since the tournament to deal with some of the problems i encountered:

1. 8 racks is too much, and I had bought cursed scrolls prior to the tourny but hadn't tested them at all, so I decided against it.

2. I need a way to fight heavily drawing decks. The last tourny I played against sneak and show and just was incredibly annoyed by griselbrand, since then I upped the pithing needles and ensnaring bridges. Now that I saw that pure discard still has some pitfalls against some combos, I am thinking of running underworld dreams to fight any deck that plays brainstorm. It also makes my normally abysmal matchups against Shardless BUG and Elves much better, and is also a slow win condition when the game is locked out from creature damage and I end up mis-drawing more damage.

3. Sign in blood did jack squat, and I was running a 4x of. I am dropping these for 2x phyrexian arena.

4. I need a means to do damage in the begining of the game before I get a control lock, so that when I do have a control lock the game ends sooner. (Cursed scroll doesn't do this, because it requires 3 mana and 1 card in hand to be effective.) I decided to drop some wrench minds and lower the rack for Liliana's Caress, If I get it early I can aggro control depending on who I am playing against, and If I get it late, I know I can do damage when I top deck discard. if they end up drawing away from my racks doing damage.

5. I need a more stable permanent to land discard. Necrogen ended up being too much to cast, or I wanted to keep all cards in my hand because they are all different utilities, or it was pitched to a liliana. I figure Bottomless pit would run into even more problems with wanting to keep the permanents in my hand while still keeping its mana cost and other problems. I did some hand testing and it seems like Scepter of Fugue is my only choice that is creatureless.

6. with the new additions needing 3 mana, or 3 mana to be useful, I added a land and am thinking of running a 1-of mishra's factory, as I don't think the problems of mana-blocking yourself will be prevalent in a one of, and it allows me to sac it against dredge and block and/or race stuff, I will not go above a one-of though, as I am already running 2 utility lands that come into play tapped, Bojuka Bog that slow my mana base down. so it needs testing.

Updated List:

1x mishra's factory
2x bojuka bog
2x cursed scroll
4x ensnaring bridge
4x hymn to tourach
4x Innocent Blood
4x inquisition of kozilek
4x liliana of the veil
2x liliana's caress
1x marsh flats
2x phyrexian arena
3x Scepter of fugue
2x shrieking affliction
15x Swamp
3x The Rack
4x thoughtseize
1x verdant catacombs
2x wrench mind


Sideboard:


2x engineered plague
2x infest
4x leyline of the void
3x pithing needle
2x ratchet bomb
2x underworld dreams


I plan on running 9x fetches and swamps with 3x sensei's divining top and dropping phyrexian arena and something else, but until I collect the fetches, top isn't as useful.

I have to playtest some of these numbers, I may want to drop a scepter and add a caress, or run an underworld dreams main and have a skrieking sideboard, but I don't know.
I also upped the IoK's for more targetted discard, but might go down to 2-3 again to run a 1-2 of Raven's crime for more consistent late game discard.

These are all cards I have considered before and have tested in different renditions of this deck, but I think this deck is really coming together, and this tourny kinda showed me what I should play and why, whereas the next one might address more numbers issues to where I need something to come into play.

[FTW]

Thanks for posting the tournament result! Good for you for going out there and giving it a shot! Nice win against RUG.

Hope this solidifies that we weren't just trolling you before. The biggest points I noticed from your matchups:

-Like you said, 8 Racks is too much. We tried saying it before. 5-6 is better. It's safer to diversify your win conditions so one works even when another doesn't. Cursed Scroll, Tombstalker, Mishra's Factory all do that. Cursed Scroll fits in your deck pretty well. I know you're worried about it tying up your mana, but as I'm sure you've noticed by now, there are many turns where you have nothing to do with your mana. That's where Scroll shines. I would NOT run Liliana's Caress since it fits into the "rack"-type kill: it deals damage as long as you keep drawing and resolving discard spells. Doesn't help you diversify threats at all. In those games where Rack wasn't killing, Caress wouldn't either. 3 Rack + 2 Affliction + 0 Caress is probably better.

-Sign in Blood sucks. Actually, I just got that from seeing "sign in blood" in your decklist. Glad you agree :).

-You often had "I needed to draw X but just drew Y". Monoblack decks fundamentally lack card quality control, unlike blue decks with cantrips. Over the long game those cantrip decks will have higher quality draws than you and eventually draw into better stuff while you are getting bad unlucky topdecks. That's the whole point of those blue draw spells. That's why Brainstorm is one of the best cards in Legacy. Black lacks the same library control. So what can you do? Sensei's Divining Top+fetchlands is a great idea and I highly recommend it if you can get the fetchlands. Another option in the meantime is Infernal Tutor. Infernal is a big upgrade on Sign, not costing you life and finding the exact card you need (Liliana, Bridge, Hymn, a SB card, etc.) in the mid-to-late game when your deck starts running out of gas. Either would help you find specific cards you need when you need them, as opposed to just drawing random cards.

-You often lost to "I had his hand low and got him down to 4-5 life but then I started topdecking land, he stabilizes and wins". This is what I was trying to say earlier about 20Discardspell.dec. You can't just cast a discard spell every turn and hope to lock them on 0-1 cards. That is not a consistent/viable strategy. I've tried it and just run into those problems over and over. Eventually you run out of discard spells, they start keeping cards in hand and break the lock. Several of your opponents were able to do that. To support the lock, you either need more permanent discard (more Necrogen Mists, Scepters) or a draw engine to fill your hand with gas (Phyrexian Arena) or a way to take out their permanents and hand at the same time to make it hard for them to ever stabilize (Pox). I know you don't like Poxing, so I'd consider going up to 3 Arenas and 3 Necrogen Mists. Although those Scepters could work too. Let us know how they work out.

-Ensnaring Bridge is a good card, but it's not enough to single-handedly lock out creature-based win conditions in the format. You cannot lean on it as much as your list does. Show and Tell can (and did) win around it. Reanimator can outrace it or counter it. Goblins was able to easily destroy it. I'm sure you noticed that you need more than just Bridge to help these matchups. You shouldn't cut it. You just need other tools too.


Other notes:
-Extirpate/Surgical Extraction is very powerful sideboard option in a discard deck. It's not just graveyard hate. If you can discard an important card early then you can Extract it from their deck for good! You also get to see their hand, which can be very helpful for planning your next few turns against a combo opponent. The drawback is it's card disadvantage for you, which is why most people don't run it. But it works best in a deck with a lot of discard, like yours. And it can double as a discard spell if you know they have another copy of that card in hand! It's bad against fair decks but very good against unfair decks. I would board these in against combo decks as well as GY decks. I think it would have helped against OmniTell, TES and Reanimator. Note that Reanimator cannot counter Extirpate, which makes it appealing GY hate against them. These may be better than Leylines, since every opponent will board in anti-permanent hate against you anyway (since your deck relies on a lot of enchantments/artifacts).

-Toxic Deluge has grown popular as a splashable way to kill TNN, but it works well for your creatureless deck too. Try 2 in the SB. You can board this in against a ton of decks heavy in creatures. It'll help, because post-sideboarding they are going to board in artifact destriction to kill your Bridges and Racks so you want a way to wipe the board.

-Underworld Dreams sounds a bit slow. Decks with Brainstorm will also board in Spell Pierce, making this very hard to resolve. Also, they will probably just sandbag their Brainstorms and use them later in the game, which ironically makes Brainstorm better. You will stop them from abusing cantrips but they will still choose to take the 3 damage and Brainstorm when it really counts. If you can afford any, I recommend Chains of Mephistopheles instead. Costs less mana and hands down kills Brainstorm, Sylvan Library, cantripping and some combo engines. It's a better answer, albeit ridiculously expensive.

-If you are getting fetchlands, have you considered getting a single Underground Sea/Watery Grave and boarding into Notion Thief against Brainstorm decks? This is much financially cheaper than Chains and also just shuts down cantrips and draw engines, while helping you get more gas! Seems powerful. The biggest drawback is that Notion Thief is easy to kill, but most blue decks will board out all their creature removal against you, so this could actually be a strong sideboard option!

[Darkenslight]

Have a look at the BNG spoiler. There's an Infest variant which also has Scry 1.

[Hardcore]

i think it would work making a discard deck based on permanents, an evil twin to Howling mine decks.
This would solve the problem with late game tempo; no deck can handle two, or more, discard effects every turn.


Necrogen mist, Bottomless Pit with Hymn to Tourach and Funeral Charm as adjuncts.
The Rack and Affliction next.
Liliana because she is so good.
Smallpox as combined creature control and discard.
Rituals to cast those clunky. permanents.
20 swamps and four empty slots for good stuff.

[jhhdk]

I think you may have found an idea for which spoiled M15 No Waste card would be suited.

[hugh4893]

-Like you said, 8 Racks is too much. We tried saying it before. 5-6 is better. It's safer to diversify your win conditions so one works even when another doesn't. Cursed Scroll, Tombstalker, Mishra's Factory all do that. Cursed Scroll fits in your deck pretty well. I know you're worried about it tying up your mana, but as I'm sure you've noticed by now, there are many turns where you have nothing to do with your mana. That's where Scroll shines. I would NOT run Liliana's Caress since it fits into the "rack"-type kill: it deals damage as long as you keep drawing and resolving discard spells. Doesn't help you diversify threats at all. In those games where Rack wasn't killing, Caress wouldn't either. 3 Rack + 2 Affliction + 0 Caress is probably better.


Liliana's caress is more for those early game damage, and late game fizzles when I draw a discard and no damage is being dealt with rack, It definitely needs testing, I just know it can be devastating early game, and make my late game somewhat better.





-You often had "I needed to draw X but just drew Y". Monoblack decks fundamentally lack card quality control, unlike blue decks with cantrips. Over the long game those cantrip decks will have higher quality draws than you and eventually draw into better stuff while you are getting bad unlucky topdecks. That's the whole point of those blue draw spells. That's why Brainstorm is one of the best cards in Legacy. Black lacks the same library control. So what can you do? Sensei's Divining Top+fetchlands is a great idea and I highly recommend it if you can get the fetchlands. Another option in the meantime is Infernal Tutor. Infernal is a big upgrade on Sign, not costing you life and finding the exact card you need (Liliana, Bridge, Hymn, a SB card, etc.) in the mid-to-late game when your deck starts running out of gas. Either would help you find specific cards you need when you need them, as opposed to just drawing random cards.


I will give infernal tutor a try, It seems a great late game top deck, especially since I am saving for fetches and tops, it could be a better alternative until then.




-You often lost to "I had his hand low and got him down to 4-5 life but then I started topdecking land, he stabilizes and wins". This is what I was trying to say earlier about 20Discardspell.dec. You can't just cast a discard spell every turn and hope to lock them on 0-1 cards. That is not a consistent/viable strategy. I've tried it and just run into those problems over and over. Eventually you run out of discard spells, they start keeping cards in hand and break the lock. Several of your opponents were able to do that. To support the lock, you either need more permanent discard (more Necrogen Mists, Scepters) or a draw engine to fill your hand with gas (Phyrexian Arena) or a way to take out their permanents and hand at the same time to make it hard for them to ever stabilize (Pox). I know you don't like Poxing, so I'd consider going up to 3 Arenas and 3 Necrogen Mists. Although those Scepters could work too. Let us know how they work out.


I went with scepter because it keeps up my strategy with a low mana base, albeit slow, but if i get locked from havigng 3 mana I can still upkeep the strategy, whereas necrogen always got ditched when I had a liliana, because she's that much better.



-Ensnaring Bridge is a good card, but it's not enough to single-handedly lock out creature-based win conditions in the format. You cannot lean on it as much as your list does. Show and Tell can (and did) win around it. Reanimator can outrace it or counter it. Goblins was able to easily destroy it. I'm sure you noticed that you need more than just Bridge to help these matchups. You shouldn't cut it. You just need other tools too.


I really don't think I lean on it as much as you think I do. I beat RUG delver without even casting it, and I think having it main ruins a lot of cheap combo decks. I have 8 other cards that deal with creatures besides it, (innocent blood and liliana) It's more of a lock to protect my lili against creature damage, obviously its a card that has its ideal decks to play against and not so ideal (Like any swarm deck) That's why I have engineered and infest sideboard. Toxic deluge is just too expensive for me right now trying to get fetches, otherwise I would run it.

I have also tested surgical and extirpate previously, and underworld needs testing. once I get some numbers right with interactions I might throw a surgical/extirpate mainboard and drop some things that just don't see play.

Great suggestions, I think the list is coming along a lot more.

[FTW]

That's why I have engineered and infest sideboard. Toxic deluge is just too expensive for me right now trying to get fetches, otherwise I would run it.


In that case, I'd upgrade to the new Infest being released in less than a month. It has scry 1, so it is strictly better. And, printed at uncommon, it should be cheap for you to get.

[hugh4893]

In that case, I'd upgrade to the new Infest being released in less than a month. It has scry 1, so it is strictly better. And, printed at uncommon, it should be cheap for you to get.

I plan on it. It's a strict upgrade.

[hugh4893]

I think you may have found an idea for which spoiled M15 No Waste card would be suited.

I like waste not a lot, but I am going to go with a swarm based strategy with it to compeltely utilize it, and I'll probably run it along side Nyxathid and Bloodghast or Gravecrawler and Tombstalker and/or Grave Titan instead of the racks/ensnaring, it just seems better to be able to cast creatures when they discard land, draw into creatures when you get them to discard a creature removal spell, and get a creature when you discard their creatures. but all the core discard will be there for sure.

[ween]

it just seems better to be able to cast creatures when they discard land

It's this part that I think is the weakest, especially with things like Bottomless Pit.
They are discarding in their Upkeep, and very little you have is instant to utilize the mana generated.

[hugh4893]

It's this part that I think is the weakest, especially with things like Bottomless Pit.
They are discarding in their Upkeep, and very little you have is instant to utilize the mana generated.

Naturally it all depends on what is in my hand, but with waste not being a zombie generator, why not support it with more swarm of creatureS? it just seems to make sense to me.

In my current list I am not running bottomless nor necrogen, and the only instant speed I think that is runnable in a mono-black control deck would be a creature removal spell. There is only one instant speed discard spell and it'sFuneral Charm. The fact Waste not is utilized at the point of discard is another reason why Scepter of Fugue is a better utilization of the permanents that can continuously discard other than Necrogen Mists or bottomless pit

(aside from funeral Charm)Discard spells are ALL sorceries, so to utilize waste not, you wouldn't want to have them discard at a point you can't most utilize its effect.

[ween]

Oh, sceptre is a perfect use for that BB generated in Upkeep, I didn't think of that.

[hugh4893]

Oh, sceptre is a perfect use for that BB generated in Upkeep, I didn't think of that.

It won't generate on upkeep, it will just generate at whatever phase of your turn, then you can freely use it to cast things at your 1st/2nd main.

[hugh4893]

you could also use hypnotic specter as another permanant to continuously cause discard.

[ween]

It won't generate on upkeep, it will just generate at whatever phase of your turn, then you can freely use it to cast things at your 1st/2nd main.

Sorry, I meant assuming you have a Bottomless Pit effect in upkeep, and they discard a land, the otherwise wasted BB could be used to activate the Sceptre, if the card discarded to the sceptre is also a land, well that would go wasted without a second sceptre, though chaining them together sounds amazing.

[jhhdk]

I am embarrassed to admit that No Waste idea was brain fart on my part as I thought draw was before upkeep as I posted comment /blush.

I was thinking of a game plan along the lines of:
Empty their hand.
Shut of their draw.
Deal with what has been resolved.
Ride no waste / rack to victory.

[hugh4893]

I am embarrassed to admit that No Waste idea was brain fart on my part as I thought draw was before upkeep as I posted comment /blush.

I was thinking of a game plan along the lines of:
Empty their hand.
Shut of their draw.
Deal with what has been resolved.
Ride no waste / rack to victory.

Waste not **
and yeah, that's the plan.

[hugh4893]

The New List after many a thought process and researching, I think this is it. this will solve problems.


Sorcery (18)


4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Raven's Crime
4x Thoughtseize

Enchantment (5)

2x Phyrexian Arena
3x Shrieking Affliction

Instant (2)

2x Surgical Extraction

Planeswalker (4)

4x Liliana of the Veil

Artifact (12)

2x underworld dreams
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Scepter of Fugue
3x The Rack

Land (19)

2x Bojuka Bo
17x Swamp

Sideboard (15)

2x Engineered Plague
2x Infest
4x extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Surgical Extraction

[Claymore]

The mana cost is a touch high, but this looks like the perfect deck for Noetic Scales.

Edit: Apparently this situation comes and goes - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18004-New-Deck-Mono-Black-Discard&p=465813&highlight=noetic#post465813

[hugh4893]

The mana cost is a touch high, but this looks like the perfect deck for Noetic Scales.

Edit: Apparently this situation comes and goes - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18004-New-Deck-Mono-Black-Discard&p=465813&highlight=noetic#post465813

its unnessessary to run that with 4x ensnaring bridge 4x liliana of the veil, and 4x innocent blood main with infest/engineered sideboard

cool card though, but if I were to run something like that I would dish out the money for the abyss

[hugh4893]

its unnessessary to run noetic scales with 4x ensnaring bridge 4x liliana of the veil, and 4x innocent blood main with infest/engineered sideboard

cool card though, but if I were to run something like that I would dish out the money for the abyss

I am actually reconsidering running a 1 of instead of running 4 ensnarings for those matchups against goblins/elves/meathooks etc. that can just race me by beating me down before I can do much damage with racks. My only problem i think I may have is that if the creatures are being returned to their hand, it may make my racks do no damage, and prolong the game longer so they can run into their artifact/enchantment removal.