Counterbalance and Morph

[Taurelin]

Quick question:

I have a Counterbalance in play. My opponent plays a morph creature.

Can I counter that with a land on top of my library?

I assume yes, because you play the morph creature as a creature with no mana cost. An no mana cost means CC0

Right?

Edit:

Just for the record: I'm "juh" here, and he didn't even want to play g2 or 3 :/


[S]IsThisACatInAHat? plays a facedown card from Hand
<juh> Thinking
juh taps Snow-Covered Island
juh is looking top 3 cards of its Library...
juh rearranges cards in juh's Library
juh stops looking its Library...
juh reveals a Snow-Covered Island
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> Ok
[S]IsThisACatInAHat? taps Tundra
[S]IsThisACatInAHat? taps Tundra
[S]IsThisACatInAHat? plays Serra Avenger from Hand
<juh> CC0
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> no
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> 3
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> on the stack
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> its 0 once it hits
<juh> you pay 3 for an object with no mana cost
<juh> no mana cost = CC0
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> on the stack, the spell costs 3
<juh> true, but cost is not CC3
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> its in the comprehensive rules, if you'd like to check
<juh> let me check the ruling on morph
<juh> 702.34a. Morph is a static ability that functions in any zone from which you could play the card it's on, and the morph effect works any time the card is face down. "Morph [cost]" means "You may cast this card as a 2/2 face-down creature, with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and no mana cost by paying {3} rather than paying its mana cost." (See rule 707, "Face-Down Spells and Permanents.")
<juh> -> no mana cost
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> the cmc of the spell
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> is 3
<juh> 202.3a. The converted mana cost of an object with no mana cost is 0.
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> now ill have to go look
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> ive had a lot of judges be very wrong
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> if such is teh case
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> somehow i doubt some guy on mws
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> is correct
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> over level 2 and 3 judges
<juh> read what i have written
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> gime a minute
<juh> ok
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> 707.4. Objects that are cast face down are turned face down before they are put onto the stack, so effects that care about the characteristics of a spell will see only the face-down spell’s characteristics. Any effects or prohibitions that would apply to casting an object with these characteristics (and not the face-up object’s characteristics) are applied to casting this object.
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> it's in 707
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> casting face down cards
<juh> yes, but mana costs are part of the characteristics
<juh> you are on the source, right?
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> yes
<juh> let's just ask there
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> um
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> why?
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> that literally proves right there
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> face down cards only care about the characteristics of the face down card
<juh> no, you misunderstand
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> -_-
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> fail
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> ok
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> go ahead and ask
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> or would you like me to?
<juh> i'm "Taurelin" @ the source, btw
<juh> might take a while, but i'll bet a beer that i'm right
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> alright
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> ill expect it @GP columbus
<juh> http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18014-Counterbalance-and-Morph&p=465742
<juh> we'll wait
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> looks like cdr isnt on
<juh> too bad
<juh> well, there is also this: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080516182527AAWbO31
<juh> even though it's not as official as the source
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> well yes
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> a land counters LED, mox
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> etc
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> because they actually cost 0
<juh> no, because their CC is 0
<juh> that#s a difference
<juh> imagine playing a chrome mox with trinisphere in play
<juh> it costs 3, but its CC is still 0
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> yes
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> it does
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> we
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> can give it 5 minutes
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> otherwise, you can just have it
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> i want to end this so i can go
<juh> and as i quoted, a moprph creature has no mana cost. and the other rule said that "no mana cost" means "CC = 0 "
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> yes, except on the stack
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> the spell costs 3
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> if its resolved, it costs 0
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> ergo its cost is 3
<juh> cost yes, but not converted mana cost
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> clearly, something we need a ruling on
<juh> indeed
<juh> another forum link (german though)
<juh> http://www.mtg-forum.de/thread-morph-umgewandelte-manakosten-29381.html?hl=counterbalance+morph
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> i dont speak german
<juh> the quote in the second post is english
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> i guess that's close enough
[S]IsThisACatInAHat? puts facedown card to Graveyard from Play
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> avenger ok?
juh hides card in library
<juh> Ok

...

<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> gg
<juh> gg
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> cya
<System> Player Lost

So, you owe me a beer, mate!

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Just "for the record", I mentioned I had to go, which is kind of why I surrendered the point. I still think I'm right

See here:

<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> we
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> can give it 5 minutes
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> otherwise, you can just have it
<[S]IsThisACatInAHat?> i want to end this so i can go
If you're still hurt feelings that I gg'd without playing out the match, I'll be happy to finish it.

[Shawn]

702.34b To cast a card using its morph ability, turn it face down. It becomes a 2/2 face-down creature card, with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and no mana cost. Any effects or prohibitions that would apply to casting a card with these characteristics (and not the face-up card's characteristics) are applied to casting this card. These values are the copiable values of that object's characteristics. (See rule 613, "Interaction of Continuous Effects," and rule 706, "Copying Objects.") Put it onto the stack (as a face-down spell with the same characteristics), and pay {3} rather than pay its mana cost. This follows the rules for paying alternative costs. You can use morph to cast a card from any zone from which you could normally play it. When the spell resolves, it enters the battlefield with the same characteristics the spell had. The morph effect applies to the face-down object wherever it is, and it ends when the permanent is turned face up.

A land will Counterbalance a morph creature.

[Solaran_X]

So will a Chalice of the Void set to 0.

[sigfig8]

How does counterbalance interact with cards with other alternate casting costs? Something I ran into recently was playing a tombstalker against counterbalance. What cc must be revealed with CB to counter tombstalker, assuming tombstalker was played with some amount of Delve X?

[Taurelin]

Alternative or additional costs don't affect the converted mana cost at all.

- Tombstalker's CMC is always 8, no matter how many cards you delve.
- Force of Will's CMC is always 5, no matter if you pay its alternative costs
- Lightning Bolt's CMC is always 1, even if Trinisphere, Thorm of Amethyst or whatever are on the battlefield.
etc.



116.8c. Additional costs don't change a spell's mana cost, only what its controller has to pay to cast it. Spells and abilities that ask for that spell's mana cost still see the original value.

116.9c. An alternative cost doesn't change a spell's mana cost, only what its controller has to pay to cast it. Spells and abilities that ask for that spell's mana cost still see the original value.

[Malchar]

Converted mana cost is simply the sum of the symbols in the upper-right of the card. The actual amount paid doesn't matter. A few unusual cases that I can think of are morph and copying. For morph, just remember that the face down card is a 2/2 creature with no other characteristics. For copying, the card usually becomes exactly the same as the source card.

[RexFTW]

Converted mana cost is simply the sum of the symbols in the upper-right of the card. The actual amount paid doesn't matter.

This is correct in all cases except when X is in the cost of the spell. In this case X is the amount paid for X.