Mystical Tutor Justification

[mchainmail]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/96


Our research took another turn, however, when we investigated how Legacy is played in the real world. We discovered something rather interesting, and that is that Mystical Tutor decks were quite rare at Legacy tournaments that did not have tons of money on the line. At Grand Prix and other cash tournaments, people were happy to bust out their Mystical Tutors. However, in the comfort of their home stores they seemed to prefer doing other things that were more fun, if perhaps less powerful. This struck me as being a sort of gentleman's agreement; everyone knew what sick decks were out there, but they chose not to play them.

I fail to see how people create "gentleman's agreements" at local magic events. At my local Saturday events, we go into them knowing 2 of 16 people are packing storm combo, and metagame accordingly, choosing Mindbreak Trap or similar hate cards to counter their strategies.

Their justification is basically as ridiculous as can be expected from Wizards.

They go in the Tournament Practice Room on MODO and play matches, only to get blown out by Ad Nauseum and Reanimator. (with no mention of decks they were playing)


After sideboarding, the games were all about the hate cards, which struck us as being a little unhealthy.

So... how does one beat Dredge?

[Aggro_zombies]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/96
As clearly, local metagames can't hate out decks...
If a deck using Mystical Tutor is obnoxious enough that is has to be "hated out," that's still a pretty good justification for considering a ban.

[mchainmail]

If a deck using Mystical Tutor is obnoxious enough that is has to be "hated out," that's still a pretty good justification for considering a ban.

If I know someone is playing mono-red burn in Standard, I'm sure as hell going to put Kor Firewalker in my sideboard.

If enough people put Kor Firewalkers in their board, then nobody would play mono red burn.

Is Reanimator different?

[Bardo]

... high-quality tutors in a format that includes almost all of Magic's many cards is likely to create consistent and powerful combination decks. We think that this is a reasonable thing to believe. However, the secret claim here is that Mystical Tutor is a "second-tier" tutor. Let's examine that claim. ...


Neither Reanimator nor Ad Nauseam Tendrils is anywhere near as onerous as Flash, but both are strong spell-based combination decks that have Mystical Tutor standing behind them. We interpreted this as a pattern. We also revised our belief that Mystical Tutor was a second-tier tutor. We now think it's tier one, and we think that any time a new spell-based combination deck arrives, Mystical Tutor would have been excited to be part of it.

I'm good with this.

[xTrainx]

Yeah, the explanation was well written.

I was annoyed with the sudden banning of Mystical Tutor, but I felt(and still feel), that the banning will serve for an overall healthier metagame, because it will allow so much more sideboard room, and will open up the meta for slightly slower nonblue decks(that have a good Zoo matchup).

[obituary 95]

i was not to impressed with the mans response he and the dci basically got scared that the decks might get a little to powerful and banned them , but i believe he should have waited a little longer so that we could see the full reaction of the legacy community before banning Mt

[DFY889]

I was worried that the DCI didn't play any games in the tournament practice room before making this decision. Luckily, their experience allowed them to find out why these decks were so powerful and why they've been winning at the SCG 5Ks recently.

[Tammit67]

In small tournaments of 20ish people, you tend to notice what shows up. Hell, we had 2 lands decks in our local group for a while, and so everyone gears towards them whether or not they are good decks. You hear that such and such shows up, and you beat it. Grave-based decks and combo take specific cards to beat them. No pilot wants to fight through specialized hate all day, so they bring something else the next week. You tend to not see consistant combo decks, since they get hated out.

Such is not the case with creature based strategies, if you want to stop one specifically, you usually can use those tools to stop the lot of them to some degree. But creatures can slog through hate that isn't fine tuned to their deck also. Thats why you tend to see more creature based decks v. control in local meta's, because they are harder to hate out.

Then the players go to a GP trying to win, expecting something similar to what was at home. But the combo player is all glad to be in the midst of the unexpected room. He only loses to those prepared. So what happens? Poor players lose against these 'best' strategies because they are unprepared. It has a little to do with the resiliency that mystical adds, but way more with the lack of universal hate of the combo archetype at larger events.

How competitive is this gameroom they were testing in anyway? If it's anything from what I'd expect, it would be a lot of rock/eva green/dead guy ale types that the affected decks have no trouble beating, despite mindbreak trap or what not.

[niknight]

If I know someone is playing mono-red burn in Standard, I'm sure as hell going to put Kor Firewalker in my sideboard.

If enough people put Kor Firewalkers in their board, then nobody would play mono red burn.

Is Reanimator different?

The problem with this thought comes when the deck that needs to be hated out is fast enough to require you to have the hate card in your opening hand... or lose. A couple of historical perspectives:

1. Affinity. When decks had to resort to playing 4x Oxidize in the main, in addition to Shaman, Zealot and Molder Slug (and affinity would still regularly beat those decks), there is a problem with the deck.

2. Worldgorder Combo. As scrumdogg can attest to, he had 8 maindeck cards vs dragon and 14 more in the board. Dragon could still consistently combo him out on turn 2.


In addition, Mystical Tutor functions as an answer to the hate cards that you would bring in. When one card allows a deck to effectively run 8x of it's combo pieces, and 5-8x of it's protection spells, that card is probably too good to have in the format.

[dahcmai]

It's a reasonable conclusion to be honest. Not much I can say about it other than I doubt it will spell the end of those two decks anyway.

[troopatroop]

i was not to impressed with the mans response he and the dci basically got scared that the decks might get a little to powerful and banned them , but i believe he should have waited a little longer so that we could see the full reaction of the legacy community before banning Mt

We've seen what Mystical Tutor has been doing for the past year or so. I for one think it makes sense, and welcome some change. I also don't personally play ANT or Reanimator for the moment, so it doesn't do anything but good for me. The people who built those decks, and counted on playing them in future tournaments, will naturally be the people who dislike this the most. It seems that Legacy on Magic Online really does make them look at our format more.

[menace13]

I was worried that the DCI didn't play any games in the tournament practice room before making this decision. Luckily, their experience allowed them to find out why these decks were so powerful and why they've been winning at the SCG 5Ks recently.

hahaah. dude i piss on the tp room. I blow blunts while blasting music going 6-0 with fukin elves, in tp!

I like Tom L tho, speak to the guy a lot on MODO very cool dude to talk to about eternal. Surprised they would take tp room into account for anything.

[hungryLIKEALION]

EXCUSE ME!? People who play tendrils have LESS FUN!?

FUCK THAT NOISE. If I had the cards, I would play Tendrils EVERY TOURNAMENT. I enjoy playing Tendrils decks more than any other deck in magic, BY FAR and the only reason I don't take them to tournaments is because I don't have LEDs.

Seriously, this is fucking bullshit. I'm over the banning, but that bullshit about the "Gentleman's agreement" is pure fucking garbage.

[mchainmail]

The problem with this thought comes when the deck that needs to be hated out is fast enough to require you to have the hate card in your opening hand... or lose. A couple of historical perspectives:

1. Affinity. When decks had to resort to playing 4x Oxidize in the main, in addition to Shaman, Zealot and Molder Slug (and affinity would still regularly beat those decks), there is a problem with the deck.

So... I'm playing Zoo, and I am scared to death of my combo matchup!!! I'm maindecking 2 Gaddock Teeg and 2 Ethersworn Canonist as Storm Hate. Then I'm bringing in 4 Mindbreak Trap and 4 Chalice of the Void...

Oh wait. Nobody does that. Can you point to a single deck at a large tournament that was pre-boarded against either ANT or Reanimator?

Gaddock Teeg was in Zoo, yes. But it answered a variety of hoser cards, including Moat, Natural Order, Humility, Force of Will, Engineered Explosives and Ad Nauseum.

[Jon Stewart]

I fully agree with the banning of Mystical Tutor, eventhough it neuters my favorite deck (Reanimator).

It was effectively a Vampiric Tutor in the deck, but without the lifeloss, and being pitchable to FoW. ANT and Reanimator can indeed survive without the card. They will just be weaker, but they'll trudge on.

And it's nice if fewer players have to devote so many sideboard slots specifically to hating out these two decks.

[MMogg]

EXCUSE ME!? People who play tendrils have LESS FUN!?

FUCK THAT NOISE. If I had the cards, I would play Tendrils EVERY TOURNAMENT. I enjoy playing Tendrils decks more than any other deck in magic, BY FAR and the only reason I don't take them to tournaments is because I don't have LEDs.

Seriously, this is fucking bullshit. I'm over the banning, but that bullshit about the "Gentleman's agreement" is pure fucking garbage.

+1 That pretty much sums up everything I wanted to touch on.

Weren't Counterbalance decks the scourge of Legacy and then everyone started packing Krosan Grips? Recently, everyone started packing karakas and other various Reanimator hate. Seems pretty normal to sideboard against tier 1 decks. Although I agree that Mystical is an enabler and a tier 1 tutor, I don't necessarily agree that it needed the axe nor do I agree that combo is less fun since that is pretty subjective.

I would have respected the decision more if he didn't go into the whole gentlemen's agreement shit. I can at least respect their long-standing policy of banning enablers (like when Dark Ritual and Mana Vault were banned in Extended to stop Hatred).

[Aggro_zombies]

Since there still seem to be haters, consider this:

Wizards R&D doesn't test larger formats when developing new sets. It's perfectly possible for them to print a card that seems relatively innocuous in Standard and Limited, but is absolutely terrible for larger formats. In fact, we know from comments from several different R&D members that Vampire Hexmage falls into this category; the card was intended as a way to kill planeswalkers, and the R&D peeps were both surprised and dismayed when it was put to use making Marit Lages in one of the most obnoxious Extended decks in recent memory (indeed, I suspect Thopter Foundry is similar to Hexmage in this regard).

Therefore, it's not unreasonable to expect Wizards to print a card that could accidentally dominate the Eternal formats. In fact, prior to the printing of Ad Nauseum, combo was mostly a local phenomenon in Legacy, with occasional appearances at larger tournaments (yes, Flash was a giant aberration). After AdN was printed, "combo" became synonymous with "ANT" and it became a major force in metagames all over the world. It's unlikely Wizards intended to do that when they printed the card.

Most of the really "broken in Eternal" cards Wizards could print would be instant or sorcery spells, simply because there's so many answers to obnoxious creatures in the format. Any deck using one of these spells would want to use Mystical Tutor because it basically allows you to run eight copies of your best card in your deck. Furthermore, it means you don't have to mulligan to an opener with the card; you can use Mystical to set up and go off on turn two. Either way, you have a huge leg up on the opponent, who has to have an answer to both Mystical Tutor and whatever your broken card is. Even if ANT and Reanimator weren't particularly dominating, the fact that Mystical Tutor consistently enables obnoxious combo decks (Flash, ANT, Reanimator, etc) should tip you off to just how bad it would be should another "Whoops, didn't see that one coming" instant or sorcery pop up in the format.

EDIT: Though, yeah, the "gentleman's agreement" thing is gigantic, steaming pile of bullshit.

[lordofthepit]

To summarize my opinon:
- Mystical Tutor is a Tier 1 tutor: Agreed
- Gentleman's Agreement: Bullshit
- Non-Mystical Tutor decks are less fun: Disagreed
- Mystical Tutor needed to be banned: I don't think it was necessary, but it wasn't completely gratuitous either. Still, I like having broken stuff in the format.

[Jon Stewart]

If nothing else, atleast banning this card is consistent.

1cc and 2cc tutors have always been overpowered, and have been restricted in vintage and legacy.

Mystical Tutor and Enlightened Tutor were weak enough to allow initially. Mystical Tutor didn't remain weak. The two best decks in the format started playing it and relying on it rather heavily. Is it any surprise that it got banned.

An year from now, when people are looking over the banned list, they're not going to bat an eye at the fact that Mystical Tutor is banned. In decks that can take advantage of it, it's not that starkly different in terms of power level from other 1cc tutors like Demonic Consultation and Vampiric Tutor.

If somehow, Quinn, Rabid Wombat and Enchantress became the best decks in the format, the decks that commanded the most amount of hate for in sideboards everywhere (not going to happen), then I fully expect Enlightened Tutor to join Mystical Tutor on the banned list.

Fortunately, the decks that currently utilize Enlightened Tutor are not the best and/or most sideboard hated decks in the format, so it's not a concern, yet.

[Aleksandr]

Gentlemen's agreement? 1@1!

[Tammit67]

Therefore, it's not unreasonable to expect Wizards to print a card that could accidentally dominate the Eternal formats. In fact, prior to the printing of Ad Nauseum, combo was mostly a local phenomenon in Legacy, with occasional appearances at larger tournaments (yes, Flash was a giant aberration). After AdN was printed, "combo" became synonymous with "ANT" and it became a major force in metagames all over the world. It's unlikely Wizards intended to do that when they printed the card.

Most of the really "broken in Eternal" cards Wizards could print would be instant or sorcery spells, simply because there's so many answers to obnoxious creatures in the format. Any deck using one of these spells would want to use Mystical Tutor because it basically allows you to run eight copies of your best card in your deck. Furthermore, it means you don't have to mulligan to an opener with the card; you can use Mystical to set up and go off on turn two. Either way, you have a huge leg up on the opponent, who has to have an answer to both Mystical Tutor and whatever your broken card is. Even if ANT and Reanimator weren't particularly dominating, the fact that Mystical Tutor consistently enables obnoxious combo decks (Flash, ANT, Reanimator, etc) should tip you off to just how bad it would be should another "Whoops, didn't see that one coming" instant or sorcery pop up in the format.

But what have we really seen? Has it really been so dominant? If it is so good in Europe, why does it not put up numbers overall nearly as well here in the States? Just because some pros talk about it and say its best does that really make things best? Could it be that the decks are easy to pick up and test, and that those underprepared die immediately?

I think the format was perfectly healthy. These 'broken' cards aren't that broken, and have solutions that are not unreasonable. All you need is some disruption and a fast clock, or a lot of disruption. Easier said then done? You betcha. But not the 'exercise in futility' stories I hear from players better known than I, where not playing mystical in the deck is damn foolish.

And as for the gentleman's agreement, that is so much F%*&ing bullshit. Not every one at local events invests in cards. Or playtesting. They take the time at these small events to do just that. You also have this mentality of wanting to be innovative, and not just netdecking. To claim that this is because there is some Social Contract that unspokenly softbans AnT or Reanimator is pure ignorance.

[MMogg]

@ dominant in Europe: not to mention it was pretty much nowhere to be seen in the Bazaar of Moxen top 8. Yeah, it's so dominant (and as LaPille says, can even blaze through Force of Will and Mindbreak Trap) that blue trounced it over and over. Lame. Truth is, it only really dominated GP Madrid, and chances are they didn't want two back-to-back Legacy GPs dominated by combo.

[Aggro_zombies]

@ dominant in Europe: not to mention it was pretty much nowhere to be seen in the Bazaar of Moxen top 8. Yeah, it's so dominant (and as LaPille says, can even blaze through Force of Will and Mindbreak Trap) that blue trounced it over and over. Lame. Truth is, it only really dominated GP Madrid, and chances are they didn't want two back-to-back Legacy GPs dominated by combo.
I think the people in Germany and the Netherlands would beg to differ.

[MMogg]

I think the people in Germany and the Netherlands would beg to differ.

I keep hearing that, but I really haven't seen a lot of top 8s where 50+% are Reanimator and/or ANT. This isn't sarcasm, I really haven't seen them.

It's kind of funny that before the banning, if we were to discuss which 1 card should be banned in Legacy, I bet Mystical Tutor wouldn't even have made the top 10. At least, I haven't heard it mentioned as ban worthy before the banning itself. Now that it has been banned, a lot of people are coming out saying how naturally it is justifiably ban worthy. :confused: If it is so broken, why was it never mentioned before as ban worthy? (Partially rhetorical. heh heh I just find it funny, that's all.)

[Tammit67]

I think the people in Germany and the Netherlands would beg to differ.

It's not like the decks ran through hate like vintage ichorid at a sealed event. Do you really think the decks were so amazing that they demand the meta to either play them or play specifically against them? If so, why wasn't this the case in the rest of the world?

[Aggro_zombies]

I keep hearing that, but I really haven't seen a lot of top 8s where 50+% are Reanimator and/or ANT. This isn't sarcasm, I really haven't seen them.

It's kind of funny that before the banning, if we were to discuss which 1 card should be banned in Legacy, I bet Mystical Tutor wouldn't even have made the top 10. At least, I haven't heard it mentioned as ban worthy before the banning itself. Now that it has been banned, a lot of people are coming out saying how naturally it is justifiably ban worthy. :confused: If it is so broken, why was it never mentioned before as ban worthy? (Partially rhetorical. heh heh I just find it funny, that's all.)
Because most people don't think of enablers as being ban-worthy. It's easier to gripe about how obnoxious the cards they enable are, without looking at the supporting cast that makes those cards so good.

Remember Necropotence? Every time that card was in Standard, it enabled some really retarded, dominant deck. Wizards would ban the cards that Necropotence enabled, but left it alone because it was "just" a draw spell. Then one day, they woke up and realized that those decks wouldn't have been so dominant without Necropotence.

Mystical Tutor may or may not have been overpowered, but we do know one thing, and that is that Wizards R&D has decided against combo being a stable metagame pillar. Mystical, more than any other card, makes combo decks consistent and resilient to hate (or at least, more than they would be otherwise), so it is the most obvious card to eliminate if you're trying to weaken all combo decks.

[majikal]

Hmmm, so my initial inkling that it was a preemptive banning of sorts was correct.

Overall, I'm pleased with the entire B&R announcement. I'm having a lot of fun coming up with goofball artifact decks, and I know I'm going to love looking for the hot new SB tech for the new metagame. :)

[MMogg]

Because most people don't think of enablers as being ban-worthy. It's easier to gripe about how obnoxious the cards they enable are, without looking at the supporting cast that makes those cards so good.

Remember Necropotence? Every time that card was in Standard, it enabled some really retarded, dominant deck. Wizards would ban the cards that Necropotence enabled, but left it alone because it was "just" a draw spell. Then one day, they woke up and realized that those decks wouldn't have been so dominant without Necropotence.

Mystical Tutor may or may not have been overpowered, but we do know one thing, and that is that Wizards R&D has decided against combo being a stable metagame pillar. Mystical, more than any other card, makes combo decks consistent and resilient to hate (or at least, more than they would be otherwise), so it is the most obvious card to eliminate if you're trying to weaken all combo decks.

And to be honest, I don't have major problems with any of what you just said. What I do have problems with are half baked justifications like some fantasy metagame where Reanimator and ANT beat anything sitting on the other side of the table. Or this BS of a gentlemen's agreement. Those things irk me more than "the DCI doesn't want combo to be a pillar". That, at least, is reasonable and rational. The other two are by and large fabrications or at least hyperbole.

[Tammit67]

Because most people don't think of enablers as being ban-worthy. It's easier to gripe about how obnoxious the cards they enable are, without looking at the supporting cast that makes those cards so good.

Remember Necropotence? Every time that card was in Standard, it enabled some really retarded, dominant deck. Wizards would ban the cards that Necropotence enabled, but left it alone because it was "just" a draw spell. Then one day, they woke up and realized that those decks wouldn't have been so dominant without Necropotence.

Mystical Tutor may or may not have been overpowered, but we do know one thing, and that is that Wizards R&D has decided against combo being a stable metagame pillar. Mystical, more than any other card, makes combo decks consistent and resilient to hate (or at least, more than they would be otherwise), so it is the most obvious card to eliminate if you're trying to weaken all combo decks.

To compare Mytical tutor to Necropotence, or the current meta to the one that had Flash of all things is just a way to scare people to your side. Not saying we have sides, mind you.* But to go out and make that comparison reeks of straw man. If mystical had become a problem card than sure, ban it. But it's not so at all. The lack of information from the defining article we waited a WEEK for is very disturbing.

*You are a cool dude, and I see your point. I just don't think it is adequately justified.

[Arsenal]

Wizards doesn't want combo to be an established pillar of Magic. Everything else in the article is just filler.

[Aggro_zombies]

To compare Mytical tutor to Necropotence, or the current meta to the one that had Flash of all things is just a way to scare people to your side. Not saying we have sides, mind you.* But to go out and make that comparison reeks of straw man. If mystical had become a problem card than sure, ban it. But it's not so at all. The lack of information from the defining article we waited a WEEK for is very disturbing.

*You are a cool dude, and I see your point. I just don't think it is adequately justified.
Well, okay, how about this:

We know three things as being indisputable facts:

- Since some time shortly after Shards of Alara was released, ANT has been the combo deck in Legacy. Prior to that, combo was not very prevalent.
- Since the unbanning of Entomb, Reanimator has warped the format around its presence. If it is not doing well, that is only because there is hate literally everywhere for it.
- Both of these decks use Mystical Tutor.

Both of these decks are, by their very nature, non-interactive. Reanimator is slightly more interactive than ANT, since every color has graveyard hate and Reanimator has to attack to win, but most of its threats blank removal and Reanimator usually has a singleton Show and Tell to find with, you guessed it, Mystical Tutor! ANT is a deck that was basically only kept in check by blue decks; most other decks' game plans against ANT went something like, "Don't get paired against it for the first few rounds, and then don't worry about it after the blue decks take care of it." ANT's popularity acted as a justification to continue playing blue, permission-based decks despite the fact that there existed a number of strategies that are very good at beating them, the most familiar and best of which is Zoo.

Basically, the metagame was defined by a deck that used Mystical Tutor to find a single copy of Ad Nauseum. If ANT hasn't done well recently, it's because the entire meta is basically split between decks hostile to it, and decks preying on the decks hostile to it. Granted, there will always be a "best deck" that people will build a metagame around, but usually the "best deck" lives up to its name and puts up results. The fact that ANT had the format wrapped around its finger while sucking is actually both amazing and hilarious when you think about it.

To revisit a point that I touched on above: only a specific subset of decks can profitably interact with ANT: blue counter decks. Everything else in the format can't touch it because the hate cards just aren't sufficient enough, and ANT has counter-hate answers to them (that it can find with...say it with me...MYSTICAL TUTOR!!!). Granted, all storm combo decks are like this, but the fact that ANT has been the storm deck since Ad Noz was printed should tell you something about how playable those storm decks are relative to it.

[Tammit67]

Wizards doesn't want combo to be an established pillar of Magic. Everything else in the article is just filler.

Then tell it to me straight. I'm tired of the run around.

[Aggro_zombies]

Then tell it to me straight. I'm tired of the run around.
They did, in the interview with Aaron Forsythe. This article was basically to address the people who are still crying over it.

It would have been funnier if they'd posted this:

http://www.gamesprays.com/images/icons/cry_some_more_icon387.jpg

...and a picture of someone burning Ad Nauseum while giving the camera the finger, but that's not exactly good PR.

[Vacrix]

Sooo....

Whats happening with the DTB now that the 2 entrants got nerfed? Are we just leaving like that? And until when? After GP?

[majikal]

Sooo....

Whats happening with the DTB now that the 2 entrants got nerfed? Are we just leaving like that? And until when? After GP?
I say we replace them with Vial Ninjas and UW Tempo! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v142/antgoten/lol.gif

[Tammit67]

Basically, the metagame was defined by a deck that used Mystical Tutor to find a single copy of Ad Nauseum. If ANT hasn't done well recently, it's because the entire meta is basically split between decks hostile to it, and decks preying on the decks hostile to it. Granted, there will always be a "best deck" that people will build a metagame around, but usually the "best deck" lives up to its name and puts up results. The fact that ANT had the format wrapped around its finger while sucking is actually both amazing and hilarious when you think about it.

Usually, list of AnT ran 2 Ad naus, while decks like TES and DDAnT profited more from just one copy. But the point remains MT was the primary way of hitting the 5 mana instant.

I don't undertand the meaning of 'hostile'. Do you think Counterbalance would not be playable if storm was not an archetype? CB decks attempt a soft lock on the opponent, and the strategy works best on Combo/control opponents. The fact that it hits AnT is residual, not that its otherwise useless mainboard hate.

As for your triangle of hostility, you could call CB decks the broken ones, the Zoo decks the hostile strat, and the combo the anti hostile strat, and you paint the same picture. Players run choke or back to basics in the board could be considered warping the format or just descisive board strategies.


To revisit a point that I touched on above: only a specific subset of decks can profitably interact with ANT: blue counter decks. Everything else in the format can't touch it because the hate cards just aren't sufficient enough, and ANT has counter-hate answers to them (that it can find with...say it with me...MYSTICAL TUTOR!!!). Granted, all storm combo decks are like this, but the fact that ANT has been the storm deck since Ad Noz was printed should tell you something about how playable those storm decks are relative to it.

Only fast aggro strategies interact profitably with Blue counter decks. That is to say, the aggro plan disrupts the control pilot if it has to, but otherwise goes along its merry way. Its the CB player that is forced to interact with Zoo if he wants to survive. Similarly, combo has to disrupt CB long enough to get its game plan in. The only issue is that aggro doesn't have a particualrly good way of forcing combo to play at its on game, according to germany/netherlands, which I could see. But that doesn't justify forcing a massive revamp of mystical packing decks, does it?

And if AnT is sucking, why feel the need to weaken it?

[denial]

"Here, lets examine the top deck from a 2007 GP, the two top decks from a spanish GP. Play a couple rounds on MODO. Dream up a hallucinatory gentlemens agreement. Aaron, throw the absinthe spoon at the deck and ban whatever card it hits. Shit, lets unban illusionary mask while were at it, that sounds like a good idea. Does anyone have a vicks. Wheres the water. No, I said keys. I cant find my keys. How is the door a jar. Someone please change this fucking cd."

Oh, awesome. Thanks for the explanation.

[mchainmail]

Well, okay, how about this:

We know three things as being indisputable facts:

- Since some time shortly after Shards of Alara was released, ANT has been the combo deck in Legacy. Prior to that, combo was not very prevalent.
- Since the unbanning of Entomb, Reanimator has warped the format around its presence. If it is not doing well, that is only because there is hate literally everywhere for it.
- Both of these decks use Mystical Tutor.


1 and 3 can be treated as basic truths. However, the warping nature of Reanimator is less evident. Yes, concessions are made in deckbuilding for Reanimator. (Faerie Macabre over Tormod's Crypt, a singleton Karakas, etc.) Clearly, a strong deck will warp the format. Counterbalance-Top created a need to run Krosan Grip. Zoo and Goblins create the need to run additional creature removal or board sweepers.

Looking at 5k Seattle, only 6 decks played Faerie Macabre, a card that is regarded as the best reanimator hate in the format. 9 decks played Tormod's Crypt, 1 played Leyline, 3 played relic. 3 played Karakas, all as a one-of, and all running white already. All of these hate cards are spread across 16 total top 8 decks, fight Lands, Aggro Loam and Dredge, and can all be played in any color deck. I fail to see how this is more warping than the 6 decks playing Krosan Grip, a hoser card that requires the deck to play green.




Basically, the metagame was defined by a deck that used Mystical Tutor to find a single copy of Ad Nauseum. If ANT hasn't done well recently, it's because the entire meta is basically split between decks hostile to it, and decks preying on the decks hostile to it. Granted, there will always be a "best deck" that people will build a metagame around, but usually the "best deck" lives up to its name and puts up results. The fact that ANT had the format wrapped around its finger while sucking is actually both amazing and hilarious when you think about it.


Let's review ANT hate in the top 16:
2 Decks with Gaddock Teeg (main or side)
2 Decks with Chalice of the Void (maindeck)
3 Decks with Mindbreak Trap (side)
2 Decks with Ethersworn Canonist (side)
1 Deck with Pyrostatic Pillar (side)
8 Decks with Force of Will

Outside of Force of Will (which was commonplace before Entomb was unbanned) there is not a lot of narrow AnT hate present in the meta whatsoever.


I think that looking at the facts (and actual, provable facts) results in a better discussion than your conjecture. 5k Seattle was chosen as the most recent tournament, but clearly AnT and Reanimator are not drawing disproportionate amounts of hate compared to other archtypes.

[mchainmail]

Additionally, let's look at the top 8 as a whole:

1st (New Horizons) Beat AnT twice
2nd (Zoo) Beat AnT twice and Reanimator once
3rd (Zoo) Beat AnT once
4th (Fish) Beat Reanimator once
5th (Reanimator) Beat Reanimator twice, AnT once
6th (Zoo) Beat AnT once, lost once
7th (Survival) Beat Reanimator twice
8th (B/W) Beat Reanimator three times

The top 8 of the tournament went 7-1 against AnT and 9-0 against Reanimator, with scarcely more hate than decks pack against Counterbalance. I fail to see how Reanimator and AnT force decks to pack disproportionate amounts of hate.

Additionally, this was out of a total of 71 games; both AnT and Reanimator, so-called boogeymen of the format are each less than 12 percent of the decks the top 8 faced.

[Skeggi]

That article sums up what Dutch players have been saying for over a year. Nice to see someone else agrees with us. We've been in favor of nerfing Storm combo for a while and are very happy with the banning of Mystical Tutor.


When we saw the Grand Prix–Madrid finals decks, a few of us got worried, jumped onto Magic Online, and started playing some Legacy with them. We were terrified by what we found. Although we were playing in the tournament practice room, which is hardly the same thing as a real tournament environment, we weren't losing very many matches with either Reanimator or Ad Nauseam. In my case, I don't recall losing any matches with either deck outside of a misclick while I was still learning the Ad Nauseam deck. The decks were just so strong that opponents not set up in their maindecks or that didn't sideboard heavily against us couldn't compete.

This vents my very thoughts on combo decks the last few years (basically since Ad Nauseam was printed). I've indicated it a few times in my reports when playing The Rock. We generally had about 8 anti-combo maindeck cards and 10-13 anti-combo sideboard cards. But the same was true for CounterTop, the worst match-up for combo. It too needed some extra sideboard hate against combo.

[Tammit67]

What's so special about the Dutch meta that everyone else can't compare?

[Skeggi]

I'm sorry, but I'm not going into that discussion again. Let's just say our meta has been dominated by Combo since the printing of Ad Nauseam (the Legacy Nationals of 2008 were won by an early form of ANT). We've tried alot of different decks and strategies against ANT, but ANT could still win consistently.

[Tammit67]

Can you link me to the discussion so I can see for myself?

[Rico Suave]

A deck doesn't need to dominate tournaments in order to warrant a banning. Look at Academy - when it and all its combo friends were completely unbanned in Extended, there were only 2 Academy decks in the top 8 at Pro Tour Rome (and 2 white weenie decks, which showed Academy could be hated out).

Sometimes, a card like Skullclamp will come along and will literally be be no less than 36 copies per top 8. But other times, we can look at a card and realize it's just not good for the format even if it's not putting up ridiculous numbers.

[Skeggi]

Can you link me to the discussion so I can see for myself?

Sure: Clicky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17105-[article]-Attacking-is-Miserable).

[Jon Stewart]

You also have this mentality of wanting to be innovative, and not just netdecking.

But is that not in essence, a gentleman's agreement. Not a formal agreement per se. But objectively, if you want to play the absolute best and most competitive deck in the format, you SHOULD netdeck. The odds that you will by your self stumble onto the most powerful deck in the format, and that for some strange reason no one else knows about it, is basically slim to none.

People trying to be innovative, and not just netdecking the most objectively powerful/broken deck in the format is a gentleman's agreement of sorts, is it not.

[MMogg]

A deck doesn't need to dominate tournaments in order to warrant a banning.

ORLY? :eyebrow:


. . . we can look at a card and realize it's just not good for the format even if it's not putting up ridiculous numbers.

http://flyterecords.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/magic_8ball_outlook_not_so_good.jpg

Yes! Vaguer policies are exactly what the DCI needs. :wink: :tongue:

[lordofthepit]

Sometimes, a card like Skullclamp will come along and will literally be be no less than 36 copies per top 8. But other times, we can look at a card and realize it's just not good for the format even if it's not putting up ridiculous numbers.

I'm pretty sure the only card other than basic lands busted enough to warrant 36 copies in a top 8 is Relentless Rats. :laugh:

[Combo Winter]

In my opinion it was a really bad banning i mean its not like many decks even played mystical and of the 2 that did one was caused by the unbanning of entomb. Clearly it was just random as hell as noone really can say they honestly felt that ant was out of hand. Also btw MT is not even close to as good vamp or consultation i mean vamp would be in every countertop and control deck in the format as well as every combo deck And consultation ant would win on turn one like every time so no I would not say MT is a "tier 1 tutor " whatever that means because that honestly means nothing and isn't discrptive of the role mystical played in the pre ban format. Overall i would say its a poor dicision because i think bans should be reseverd for format warping decks.

[pippo84]

The article was nice to read. Written well and with valid points.
Anyways I'm not convinced that this is the correct choice, but anyways you have to accept it. I just think that zoo had Gaddok Teeg and Canonist with combo. And Crypts, Relics, Faerie Macabre etc to dela with Reanimator.
And as someone already stated Gaddok is good also in the MD because it stops Engineered Explosives, Tendrils, Ad Nauseam, Moat, Humility, Force of Will and the list continues.
Every deck had a way to fight ANT and Reanimator. This will change the future meta, now I'm just worried about too many aggro decks that will see play. If Zoo was already extremly popular what will happen now since the 2 worst MU's are gone?? :frown:

[alphacat]

My only problem with this is that they are now banning things out of the 'possibility' of decks making the format unfun. Rather than banning cards based on tournament data and public input, basically, they took the stats from one tournament, and a few practice rounds on MODO, and called that comprehensive research. I'm actually not a mad as when they restricted BS and Ponder in vintage, but this is by no means a good thing for Legacy. Quite frankly, this is just another attempt at Wizards killing combo, slowly but surely.

I really feel like wizards thinks that people can NOT enjoy anything other than aggro....

[alderon666]

I almost don't wanna post anything here because anything I say is gonna be completely biased, as I own ANT and Reanimator. Which were my favourite decks... well in Magic.

Testing in the casual room? Really? Yeah, Iona beats monogreen pauper elves. Good find! Storm rolls over RG haste, OH NOES!

Gentlemen's agreement? I switched over to Ichorid from Storm several times because the metagame became TOO hostile. I don't know if you know but when you cast Mystical Tutor to answer a hate card you actually lose a card and if your hand isn't Dark Ritual 2x and Ad Nauseam it might not be so easy to find the rest of the pieces, as you just wasted a card and mana into killing a Gaddock Teeg. Oh! Don't even get me started when they find the second hate card...

Sure, aggro is an underdog against combo. SO WHAT? Combo sucks so hard against CB Top it makes me wanna cry. So, Timmy can't have a 65/35 matchup but combo can? And now it's probably 90/10 since one of the few weapons combo had on CB was speed and answer consistency.

Fun? Yeah, getting hit every game by a broken 1-drop, followed by a broken 2-drop, followed by several burns spells is so much FUN! Oh wait, getting locked out of the game turn 2 by a card that protects itself is also major funtimes... wait, am I talking about Iona or CB Top...?

I like combo, I think it's a very interesting facet of Magic. If you wanna hate it out of T2 because of noobs... sure! Wanna hate it out of extended, be my guest. But Legacy is different, we wanna play powerful cards that can turn the tide in the blink of an eye. I don't wanna play creatures decks just racing to see who gets more Tarmogoyf/Paths...

I don't know how much this post can add to the discussion, it's more of a Guttural Response I had to get out of my chest. This almost makes me wanna quit Legacy, but I probably can't do that as my local metagame only plays Legacy... and unfortunately I love Magic.

[sunshine]

Interesting read. I thing he hammered on the whole "gentleman's agreement" thing a little too much for my taste - seems rather case dependent and the data behind some of their claims is noticeable absent.


We discovered something rather interesting, and that is that Mystical Tutor decks were quite rare at Legacy tournaments that did not have tons of money on the line.

What sort of tourneys are we talking about here? Legacy FNMs (if so where do those go down so I can get in on it)? Small tournaments are just that - small. Without a lot of data we can't meaningfully tease much realiable information from them. What constitutes a tourney as not have tons of money on the line? Does a 30 man turnout event with duals for the top two count?

Is it impossible for a competitive format to foster fun casual decks that thrive at smaller events where statistical variances play a larger role in success? Of course it is - but does that mean we should have banned Bloodbraid Elf in standard because more people were having fun in the casual rooms and local FNMs with their funk brew?

I understand that Mystical Tutor often acts as what amounts to be an enabler for most things broken. And that is at least a justifiable reason for a banning if those broken things get out of hand (were they out of hand?) - but I'm sorry, I just don't buy the "gentleman's agreement" argument which ultimately lacks objectivity and reason. Particularly in the sense that it assumes causality (less people play MT at low money events -> MT is less fun to play?) from a correlation which isn't even presented with the appropriate (or any) data. It would have been nice to see some stats like MT decks are X percent of the field for low money events and Y percent for higher money events AND demonstrate that other top tier strategies don't follow a similar trend (it's not unreasonable to expect people to stick with tried and true strategies when prizes are on the line while trying out the new tech when their isn't).

So... it was nice and interesting to see some explanation, even though I feel they still left plenty in the shadows.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't understand WoTC logic in the manner. If they thought MT decks required too much hate, then why is dredge untouched?

[theintangiblefatman]

This is what I was afraid their justification would be, although I did not foresee testing in TP playing a part; that is particularly horrifying in its own right. Tendrils decks are the only decks that consistently hold my interest, and for a key component to be axed simply for no reason other than, "We don't like combo, and we think you don't actually like combo either," is ridiculous. I'm not going to waste my time revamping my TES or DDFT list or learning how to play Belcher when six months from now Burning Wish or what have you could get the axe with this exact article reprinted as justification.

Really guys, look at the article; no results considered whatsoever, just a bunch of anecdotes. Even if you think Mystical was the most busted card in Legacy and absolutely had to go, is this the way that it should be done?



I like combo, I think it's a very interesting facet of Magic. If you wanna hate it out of T2 because of noobs... sure! Wanna hate it out of extended, be my guest. But Legacy is different, we wanna play powerful cards that can turn the tide in the blink of an eye. I don't wanna play creatures decks just racing to see who gets more Tarmogoyf/Paths...

My thougths exactly.

[dyzzy]

Sometimes, a card like Skullclamp will come along and will literally be be no less than 36 copies per top 8.
It's so good, you have to cheatyface in an extra 4 copies.

[majikal]

Sounds like some people in this thread need these:
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd318/HonouredMatre/tissues.jpg

[Michael Keller]

Mystical Tutor is banned; does it really matter anymore?

Even if people want to speculate why it was banned or a justification in respect towards the banning...it still doesn't change the fact that it is banned. Get over it.

[alderon666]

Mystical Tutor is banned; does it really matter anymore?

Even if people want to speculate why it was banned or a justification in respect towards the banning...it still doesn't change the fact that it is banned. Get over it.

Yeah, but now that the reasons are out it makes me wonder... what's next? Say another combo rises to the top. Are they just hammer it out?

Are annoying (unfun) strategies like CB Top and Natural Order just being left untouched? Just because they are "interactive"?

It just feels like blue in T2 before Jace. Nerfed into oblivion because of damage done by Faeries... The problem is that ANT + Reanimator probably doesn't add to the power Faeries had in T2.

Reanimator + ANT could probably be dealt with good card design in the next sets. I'm pretty sure you could print some form of hate to put those decks in check. Something like 1 mana hate"bear"s or something like that.

And on Mystical being a problem card for future printed cards... can't we just let it happen? Once shit hits the fan you can ban it, but doing it before sounds hella forced.

[Arsenal]

I don't understand WoTC logic in the manner. If they thought MT decks required too much hate, then why is dredge untouched?

I suspect it would be much more difficult to nerf a deck that's based around a mechanic versus nerfing a deck that abuses a specific card.

[majikal]

:eyebrow:

What's with all the tin-foil hat theories? They banned Mystical Tutor because it makes spell-based combo decks too consistent, not because ANT and Reanimator specifically caused a problem. They don't have to wait for it to fuck up the metagame to ban it if it falls in line with their opinion of other tutors such as Vamp, Demonic, and Consultation. They saw how it was being used, went "DO NOT WANT" and gave it the hammer. End of story.

Nobody is out to get the combo players. Nobody is trying to dumb down the format. They simply saw a card that was too good at streamlining complex combo decks and decided it wasn't healthy. You can still have your combos - just not so much redundancy.

I honestly don't even see why this is still an issue.

http://www.moltenimage.com/photos/animated/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

[jrsthethird]

Gentlemen's agreement? I switched over to Ichorid from Storm several times because the metagame became TOO hostile. I don't know if you know but when you cast Mystical Tutor to answer a hate card you actually lose a card and if your hand isn't Dark Ritual 2x and Ad Nauseam it might not be so easy to find the rest of the pieces, as you just wasted a card and mana into killing a Gaddock Teeg. Oh! Don't even get me started when they find the second hate card...

Maybe you switched to Ichorid because you're a bad ANT pilot? Case in point:

Teeg is Legendary, even if he has another one, he can't play it (unlike Canonist). So why bother killing it if you aren't going to go off that turn? Then he gets a chance to play another one (not to mention that the kill spell adds to your storm count).


This is what I was afraid their justification would be, although I did not foresee testing in TP playing a part; that is particularly horrifying in its own right. Tendrils decks are the only decks that consistently hold my interest, and for a key component to be axed simply for no reason other than, "We don't like combo, and we think you don't actually like combo either," is ridiculous. I'm not going to waste my time revamping my TES or DDFT list or learning how to play Belcher when six months from now Burning Wish or what have you could get the axe with this exact article reprinted as justification.

The problem is that ANT was so easy to play. Other storm combo decks require a lot more skill and matchup knowledge to pilot correctly (except Belcher, which is a crapshoot and hated out by Island). Combo decks will continue to exist and you're only losing out if you don't play your favorite archetype because you see it as a 'waste of time'. If something gets banned (doubtful), you can move on to the next combo deck.

[rockout]

Figures we could not just let mystical tutor die without a shit storm of justification and other stuff. Its banned. Its probably not going to change if you understand the banning or not.

[DragoFireheart]

I suspect it would be much more difficult to nerf a deck that's based around a mechanic versus nerfing a deck that abuses a specific card.


Just ban Bridge from Below and Dredge would be significantly weakened.

[Aggro_zombies]

Just ban Bridge from Below and Dredge would be significantly weakened.
Dredge has existed in the format for forever, has sucked for forever, can be answered by every color, is interactive, and is inferior as a graveyard strategy to Lands.

Stop crying because your pet decks lose to Dredge.

[alderon666]

Maybe you switched to Ichorid because you're a bad ANT pilot? Case in point:

Teeg is Legendary, even if he has another one, he can't play it (unlike Canonist). So why bother killing it if you aren't going to go off that turn? Then he gets a chance to play another one (not to mention that the kill spell adds to your storm count).


Case in point: I tutor up kill/bounce spell but can't go off this turn. If I leave Teeg alive he just does me 2 more damage and if I tutored Deathmark it takes one black mana.



The problem is that ANT was so easy to play. Other storm combo decks require a lot more skill and matchup knowledge to pilot correctly (except Belcher, which is a crapshoot and hated out by Island). Combo decks will continue to exist and you're only losing out if you don't play your favorite archetype because you see it as a 'waste of time'. If something gets banned (doubtful), you can move on to the next combo deck.


The problem with ANT is that it used to beat aggro senseless. Sometimes Zoo would deal enough damage to win or a unanswered hate card would beat ya. But other than that it was a walk in the park. Zoo is stupid easy to play, the decisions are far more automatic than Ad Nauseam. Games with ANT were short, but every decision was crucial... make the wrong move and you lose.

Other combo decks that might show up are just going to be crappy. They'll be slow and will never be as consistent as ANT once were and aggro is just gonna race them easily. Just imagina playing a Doosmday deck planing to go off on turn 3. A Zoo player can deal a ton of damage until them and them probably have enough burn up to kill you after you've cast Doosmday.

[marclark]

I think we're all overlooking the REAL reason MT was banned.


What we don't think is cool is to have an enigmatic-looking hooded WOMAN holding a book and trying to look innocuous while she boosts the power of every spell-based combination deck that ever shows up in the format.

Obviously, they wouldn't have banned it if there were a man holding a book and staring innocuously while boosting combo decks. Thats right. Wizards is sexist and doesn't believe cards that feature women, especially READING women, should be used.

Honestly though, I'm neither for nor against the banning. Storm was pretty fun to play with, but kind of boring to play against and Reanimator just seemed like an all-around boring deck 90% of the time. To be fair zoo is fairly boring too but Wizards would never neuter an aggro deck unless it reached Raffinity in Standard domination. Yes its easy to argue that the two decks affected didn't dominate as much as Wizards seems to think, but it is very likely due to most people taking no time to practice and just banking on the fact that both of the decks are just so ridiculously broken that you can autopilot them and t8.

ANT is much easier to play than any of the other storm decks which made it a little more powerful. If anything, banning the tutor will allow greater diversity and more innovation to combo decks.

Reanimator is injured, but definitely not dead and honestly those who sincerely like playing the deck should count their blessings and be grateful wizards banned your MT instead of re-banning entomb. Yeah, you can thank the ANT players for that one too. I want you all to find the nearest storm guy and give him a big hug.

As far as gentleman's agreements go, as long as there is any money invested in a tournament gentleman's agreements aren't worth shit. At the playgroup I usually attend there are at least 4 dredge decks every week, usually a storm or two, and 2 or three Reanimator. This is for 4 or 5 WWK or ROE boosters mind you.

[DragoFireheart]

Dredge has existed in the format for forever, has sucked for forever, can be answered by every color, is interactive, and is inferior as a graveyard strategy to Lands.

Ok, and your point is...




Stop crying because your pet decks lose to Dredge.

Questioning WoTC logic is now considered crying?

[Aggro_zombies]

Ok, and your point is...
Questioning WoTC logic is now considered crying?
Dredge and storm decks using Mystical Tutor aren't even remotely close to each other. For starters, the cards in Dredge only enable Dredge, while Mystical Tutor enables basically any strategy that needs some instant or sorcery to win. You're comparing apples and oranges in your attempt to try to hate on WotC for a decision you don't agree with. Of course, nothing I say matters, because you're just hellbent on proving that the Mystical Tutor ban was the wrong decision and that WotC doesn't like us, amirite?

[Forbiddian]

I was worried that the DCI didn't play any games in the tournament practice room before making this decision. Luckily, their experience allowed them to find out why these decks were so powerful and why they've been winning at the SCG 5Ks recently.

I laughed my ass off reading this.


But sadly, I think he has a point: The Practice Room (or basements similar to the practice room) *IS* where most Legacy players are going to get started. If they keep getting WTFPWNED it's going to hurt the format, even if tournament/serious players like we'd find on The Source don't think that Mystical decks are much stronger than alternatives.

[mchainmail]

I laughed my ass off reading this.


But sadly, I think he has a point: The Practice Room (or basements similar to the practice room) *IS* where most Legacy players are going to get started. If they keep getting WTFPWNED it's going to hurt the format, even if tournament/serious players like we'd find on The Source don't think that Mystical decks are much stronger than alternatives.

I don't know how many people start playing magic and play Legacy on Magic Online...

[DragoFireheart]

Dredge and storm decks using Mystical Tutor aren't even remotely close to each other. For starters, the cards in Dredge only enable Dredge, while Mystical Tutor enables basically any strategy that needs some instant or sorcery to win.

The issue with MT was that it allowed a combo deck to be too consistent. Isn't one of dredges strengths that it's a consistently fast deck?




You're comparing apples and oranges in your attempt to try to hate on WotC for a decision you don't agree with.

I actually agree with the choice to have MT banned as a matter of fact. Combo shouldn't be able to consistently win on turns 1-2.




Of course, nothing I say matters, because you're just hellbent on proving that the Mystical Tutor ban was the wrong decision and that WotC doesn't like us, amirite?

You can continue to lash out or actually discuss the subject at hand. What is is going to be?

[majikal]

The issue with MT was that it allowed a combo deck to be too consistent. Isn't one of dredges strengths that it's a consistently fast deck?

If by "consistently fast" you mean it consistently either wins or shits its pants by turn 3, then you would be correct.

[Omega]

If it were a poll asking our opinion on banning or not MT, then this discussion will have a meaning. Right now, whats done is done. Discuss the new format

[DragoFireheart]

If it were a poll asking our opinion on banning or not MT, then this discussion will have a meaning. Right now, whats done is done. Discuss the new format


More Dredge and Zoo and Lands!. We are going to see a lot more Zoo.

Countertop will survive and adapt to the meta. New Horizons does the same.

Ant will see less play and/or a new Storm variant will replace it. Reaniamtor will see less play but still be played.

Merfolk will get shit on by all Zoo decks.


That sounds about right.

[Tammit67]

I like UW heavy board control's chances. A Landstill shell looks good.

For people to come in to the format/article discussion forum and tell people to stop discussing
a) the allegedly degenerate format involving MT
b) the article's justification for said banning
is just stupid. This is where we are able to discuss such things. If you want people to stop beating a dead horse, and for you to be correct in telling people to stop, wait for someone to bitch in a deck thread. That is where such things have no constructive place.

I'm against the banning of mystical tutor. I feel the format was open enough that other archetypes were more than viable, especially in the US. I am perplexed by the situation in the Netherlands, and don't quite understand it. I can understand where people in this forum come from that they can get behind the banning.

I cannot, however, understand where WotC is coming from, and if I am considered a bitch for complaining about it, sue me. But for the powers that be to spit out either, a bullshit explanation based on clearly little insight or to hide the truth that perhaps they just don't like combo, is unfathomable. And quite frankly scares me that this process will repeat.

[Aggro_zombies]

The issue with MT was that it allowed a combo deck to be too consistent. Isn't one of dredges strengths that it's a consistently fast deck?
This is a double straw man.

First, Dredge and storm combo decks are not even remotely similar. To address your example specifically, Zoo is a consistently fast deck. Does that mean we should ban Wild Nacatl? No, because Zoo is interactive. Zoo comes out of the gates quickly, burns small guys out of the way, and kills you with a swarm or a small group of big finishers. The creatures are easy to answer, though; every color has access to creature hate. Similarly, Dredge is fairly interactive.

Secondly, you're consistently ignoring the point that MT is a universal enabler. Cards in Dredge only enable Dredge. Mystical Tutor will enable any strategy that needs to find a specific spell to win. See: Flash, Reanimator, Ad Nauseum.

[Bardo]

Testing in the casual room? Really?

He said tourney practice, not casual. Big difference.


Yeah, but now that the reasons are out it makes me wonder... what's next? Say another combo rises to the top. Are they just hammer it out?

Depends on how good it is, but possibly. WotC has repeatedly said that they like having combo decks around, but they don't want them to dominate. You're entitled to your opinion and all, but when a combo deck is top dog, it's not fun for most and a lot of people don't want to play the game (because they don't get to). Honestly, I don't blame them. With Columbus around the corner, they don't want a repeat of Madrid.


I don't understand WoTC logic in the manner. If they thought MT decks required too much hate, then why is dredge untouched?

Because Dredge has never won a Legacy GP. I'm not 100% on this, but I don't think it's even T8'd a GP. Why would you nerf a deck that isn't winning anything notable?

[Sims]

You're entitled to your opinion and all, but when a combo deck is top dog, it's not fun for most and a lot of people don't want to play the game (because they don't get to). Honestly, I don't blame them. With Columbus around the corner, they don't want a repeat of LAST COLUMBUS.

Bolded and changed for my emphasis. 3 Combo in Madrid's T8 isn't too bad, 2 Tendrils and a Reanimator, and there were 3 Zoo decks in that top 8 as I recall. The thing is they can see that the combo is ridic. in the overseas metas such as the netherlands where it absolutely dominates, and then they do their own testing and see that a card is enabling multiple combo decks that are arguably degenerate in the sense that you have to pack more hate than normal for the archtype and make the game unfun for the people who are playing against those combo decks... You don't beat reanimator with a set of crypts...you need something to stop their needles/null rods, hate their grave, and try to stop their Show and Tell. Similarly you don't just play gaddock teeg and smile as you ride him to victory against AnT... you need a fast clock and a combination of hatebears/hand disruption to even slow them down to the point of giving you a chance. That isn't healthy.

Were these decks metagame warping here in the states? No, not by a long shot. But I have a feeling what WoTC and the DCI is hoping to do here is nip what they see as a problem in the butt now to prevent not only these decks from potentially getting out of hand, but also to prevent any future card interactions that could create even more degenerate decks. What they want LEAST is for last columbus to repeat itself.

TL;DR. It's done, move along. And for the record, I owned both B/U Reanimator and NLS/ANT/Rev614. I'm not sad to see Mystical Tutor gone.

[DragoFireheart]

This is a double straw man.

First, Dredge and storm combo decks are not even remotely similar. To address your example specifically, Zoo is a consistently fast deck. Does that mean we should ban Wild Nacatl? No, because Zoo is interactive. Zoo comes out of the gates quickly, burns small guys out of the way, and kills you with a swarm or a small group of big finishers. The creatures are easy to answer, though; every color has access to creature hate. Similarly, Dredge is fairly interactive.

Secondly, you're consistently ignoring the point that MT is a universal enabler. Cards in Dredge only enable Dredge. Mystical Tutor will enable any strategy that needs to find a specific spell to win. See: Flash, Reanimator, Ad Nauseum.


So basically you are saying that while dredge is good, it's also just as bad (loses to itself) while storm decks are good with tutor and are usually not bad?

[MMogg]

So basically you are saying that while dredge is good, it's also just as bad (loses to itself) while storm decks are good with tutor and are usually not bad?

I think the key distinction is that Dredge follows the DCI's policy of promoting decks that use their attack phase to win.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think the key distinction is that Dredge follows the DCI's policy of promoting decks that use their attack phase to win.
No, the key distinction is that cards like Golgari Grave-Troll and Bridge from Below suck outside of Dredge, while Mystical Tutor is an awesome addition to any and every deck that needs one key instant or sorcery to win.

[denial]

What's with all the tin-foil hat theories?

There are none. Whats up the police state enforcement for questioning a ban ?



The problem is that ANT was so easy to play.

Oh, and how is that a crime exactly ?



Of course, nothing I say matters

Pretty much. But seeing as you're now the champion pushing WotCs decision here. Im just a little curious that if this was the card to ban. How come you werent screaming that it should have been banned for months now ?

[majikal]

What's with all the tin-foil hat theories?
There are none. Whats up the police state enforcement for questioning a ban ?
This made me lol. Thank you for just reinforcing that sentiment for me.

[Aggro_zombies]

Pretty much. But seeing as you're now the champion pushing WotCs decision here. Im just a little curious that if this was the card to ban. How come you werent screaming that it should have been banned for months now ?
I'm not a WotC fanboy, I'm just trying to show the logic behind the ban, since there appear to be a lot of "gut feeling" arguments and straw men in this thread.

I don't usually ask for anything to be banned, because the format seemed fine as it was - at least, in America. Also, it's a lot easier to finger the big, flagship cards like Ad Nauseum or Entomb as being the problem than it is to realize that the enabler behind them is the real problem. Basically, the banning took me by surprise, but now that it's over and done with, all the QQing in the world isn't going to change it. I'd rather get to work on the "new" format than complain about Wizards killing Legacy or whatever it is that most people are crying about in this thread.

[DragoFireheart]

No, the key distinction is that cards like Golgari Grave-Troll and Bridge from Below suck outside of Dredge, while Mystical Tutor is an awesome addition to any and every deck that needs one key instant or sorcery to win.

Honestly, most of the tutors should not be legacy legal. Leave that sort of broken "find game winning card" to vintage.

[scrumdogg]

Bolded and changed for my emphasis. 3 Combo in Madrid's T8 isn't too bad, 2 Tendrils and a Reanimator, and there were 3 Zoo decks in that top 8 as I recall. The thing is they can see that the combo is ridic. in the overseas metas such as the netherlands where it absolutely dominates, and then they do their own testing and see that a card is enabling multiple combo decks that are arguably degenerate in the sense that you have to pack more hate than normal for the archtype and make the game unfun for the people who are playing against those combo decks... You don't beat reanimator with a set of crypts...you need something to stop their needles/null rods, hate their grave, and try to stop their Show and Tell. Similarly you don't just play gaddock teeg and smile as you ride him to victory against AnT... you need a fast clock and a combination of hatebears/hand disruption to even slow them down to the point of giving you a chance. That isn't healthy.

Were these decks metagame warping here in the states? No, not by a long shot. But I have a feeling what WoTC and the DCI is hoping to do here is nip what they see as a problem in the butt now to prevent not only these decks from potentially getting out of hand, but also to prevent any future card interactions that could create even more degenerate decks. What they want LEAST is for last columbus to repeat itself.

TL;DR. It's done, move along. And for the record, I owned both B/U Reanimator and NLS/ANT/Rev614. I'm not sad to see Mystical Tutor gone.

Agreed leventy million percent, including the point that if WOTC had also allowed the second Legacy GP Columbus to be gobbled down by stupid combo they would have looked like prize idiots. This opens the format back up, which is good, and makes it more 'fun' by being more interactive - one of their stated goals for the game. I would much rather lose a game of Magic to an opponent outplaying me than having their deck masturbate all over my round, and so would many, many other Magic players. Now that (hopefully) the format balances out a bit better, WOTC can address Counter-Top next (and many, many of us will be ecstatic if they do).

As for the 'gentlemen's agreement' I don't believe that is the case as much as not only is it easier to hate a smaller local metagame but you tend to know who plays what. If Johnny66 (and possibly his asshole friend as well...) is consistently rocking ANT (or Reanimator or New Horizons or NOProg Counter Top - the specific deck doesn't really matter) and doing extremely well, you not only prepare for him (them) as you WILL probably be playing them at some point, you know what you have to do (hands to keep, lines of play to take, etc) when you do play them. This makes a huge difference in match-up percentages and is much more crippling to combo-style decks who feast on unprepared players & unprepared hands, especially Game 1. It is same reason both Dredge & tribal tend to be cyclical at the local level. As soon as they become prevalent and successful, the hate comes out and kicks them in the junk...until they fade away, then the hate trickles away, then they come back.

[MMogg]

No, the key distinction is that cards like Golgari Grave-Troll and Bridge from Below suck outside of Dredge, while Mystical Tutor is an awesome addition to any and every deck that needs one key instant or sorcery to win.

So are you going to tell me that Protean Hulk, Karmic Guide, Kiki, etc. don't suck outside Flash so Flash didn't need a banning? I really don't think it was the single cards examined and wondering if said cards are good in other decks. You yourself quoted Aaron F. on how they want creature based win conditions to be the best, and Ichorid is just that. So, apart from the fact that Ichorid is not putting up scary numbers, I think a huge difference in ANT and Ichorid is in fact how Ichorid is in line with creatures --> victory route that the DCI wants to nurture. I guess we can agree to disagree.


I'm not a WotC fanboy, I'm just trying to show the logic behind the ban, since there appear to be a lot of "gut feeling" arguments and straw men in this thread.

I don't usually ask for anything to be banned, because the format seemed fine as it was - at least, in America. Also, it's a lot easier to finger the big, flagship cards like Ad Nauseum or Entomb as being the problem than it is to realize that the enabler behind them is the real problem. Basically, the banning took me by surprise, but now that it's over and done with, all the QQing in the world isn't going to change it. I'd rather get to work on the "new" format than complain about Wizards killing Legacy or whatever it is that most people are crying about in this thread.

If they came out of nowhere next time and banned Life from the Loam, Arizona would have a flash flood of your tears. :tongue:

I agree we have to move on, but it has only been one day since they released their explanatory article. A lot of people have a lot invested in this game: time, money, and yes even emotions, so I don't begrudge them their chance to vent.

[Aggro_zombies]

So are you going to tell me that Protean Hulk, Karmic Guide, Kiki, etc. don't suck outside Flash so Flash didn't need a banning? I really don't think it was the single cards examined and wondering if said cards are good in other decks. You yourself quoted Aaron F. on how they want creature based win conditions to be the best, and Ichorid is just that. So, apart from the fact that Ichorid is not putting up scary numbers, I think a huge difference in ANT and Ichorid is in fact how Ichorid is in line with creatures --> victory route that the DCI wants to nurture. I guess we can agree to disagree.
Not really. The Flash thing is out of context and a straw man all rolled into one. You and I both know that Flash was a ridiculous card on its own, and if Hulk hadn't existed, there's probably some other obnoxious combo you can set up with it.

There are two issues here. Yes, some deck components aren't interchangable, but it's not the lack of interchangability that's a problem - it's the context. Golgari Grave-Troll is a five mana guy with an irrelevant activated ability who will often be just a 3/3 or so in any deck other than Dredge. His ability to recur himself isn't something a lot of decks are interested in because the base stats of the Troll are so bad. However, in Dredge he's fantastic because he'll often be huge when you get him into play and, at dredge 6, he's your most potent engine card. If Troll was just a spell with dredge 6, he'd still be played because he dredges six cards every time.

The thing is, if your goal is to empower creature strategies, you want to keep the most powerful combo strategies in check somehow. Ichorid winning with creatures is basically irrelevant to this, which is one of the reasons I keep saying the Ichorid comparison is a straw man; Ichorid is a fairly unique existence that has similarities to engine decks, attack decks, and combo decks. Spell-based combo, whether it's storm, Entomb, or SomeFunkyCard.deck, will always benefit from Mystical Tutor - and the boost in consistency and setup speed Mystical provides will almost always allow these decks to have an edge in the aggro matchup. I mean, here, imagine that this card is in M11:

Fuck My Life
:0:
Instant
You may only play one copy of Fuck My Life in your deck or sideboard.
You win the game.

Every deck would run that card. But how much more obscene would it be if you could run "five" copies thanks to the virtual copy boost Mystical Tutor provides? Every deck would have to splash blue for Mystical just to keep up.

I mean, yeah, that's a super extreme example, but the engine cards that Mystical finds are basically just disguised versions of Fuck My Life, whose mana costs relegate them to certain decks. Dredge doesn't rely on any one card - the entire deck is an engine, which is part of the reason why Dredge is so unique. Arguing that Mystical Tutor shouldn't be banned if Dredge is still a deck is incredibly obtuse if you have any idea how Dredge and your typical MT deck work.

Can we just leave Dredge out of this?

EDIT: The more I think about what you're trying to argue, the more confused I get.

[MMogg]

EDIT: The more I think about what you're trying to argue, the more confused I get.

Someone else had mentioned Ichorid and questioned why Ichorid is any different from ANT, which is why I chimed in stating that Ichorid uses its attack phase to win, and therefore jives nicely with the DCI's wishes. That's all. Then you gave a rebuttal, etc. etc. I wasn't the one who initially mentioned Dredge and actually I don't mind dropping it because I don't really care. LOL But I do think that Ichorid in the DCI's eyes is kosher and not technically combo or at least not the flavour of combo they dislike.

[Aggro_zombies]

Someone else had mentioned Ichorid and questioned why Ichorid is any different from ANT, which is why I chimed in stating that Ichorid uses its attack phase to win, and therefore jives nicely with the DCI's wishes. That's all. Then you gave a rebuttal, etc. etc. I wasn't the one who initially mentioned Dredge and actually I don't mind dropping it because I don't really care. LOL But I do think that Ichorid in the DCI's eyes is kosher and not technically combo or at least not the flavour of combo they dislike.
Oh, okay. No wonder I'm so lost.

Yeah, Ichorid is just a deck, while MT will be an automatic four-of in basically every good spell-based combo deck the format will ever see.

[denial]

Fuck My Life

Yeah, so I guess you want me to believe that this was there all along right ?


http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5071/polled.jpg

[Nihil Credo]

This isn't 4chan.

Let me repeat: THIS ISN'T 4CHAN.

Behave accordingly.

[DFY889]

Well, okay, how about this:

We know three things as being indisputable facts:

- Since some time shortly after Shards of Alara was released, ANT has been the combo deck in Legacy. Prior to that, combo was not very prevalent.
- Since the unbanning of Entomb, Reanimator has warped the format around its presence. If it is not doing well, that is only because there is hate literally everywhere for it.
- Both of these decks use Mystical Tutor.

Both of these decks are, by their very nature, non-interactive. Reanimator is slightly more interactive than ANT, since every color has graveyard hate and Reanimator has to attack to win, but most of its threats blank removal and Reanimator usually has a singleton Show and Tell to find with, you guessed it, Mystical Tutor! ANT is a deck that was basically only kept in check by blue decks; most other decks' game plans against ANT went something like, "Don't get paired against it for the first few rounds, and then don't worry about it after the blue decks take care of it." ANT's popularity acted as a justification to continue playing blue, permission-based decks despite the fact that there existed a number of strategies that are very good at beating them, the most familiar and best of which is Zoo.

Basically, the metagame was defined by a deck that used Mystical Tutor to find a single copy of Ad Nauseum. If ANT hasn't done well recently, it's because the entire meta is basically split between decks hostile to it, and decks preying on the decks hostile to it. Granted, there will always be a "best deck" that people will build a metagame around, but usually the "best deck" lives up to its name and puts up results. The fact that ANT had the format wrapped around its finger while sucking is actually both amazing and hilarious when you think about it.

To revisit a point that I touched on above: only a specific subset of decks can profitably interact with ANT: blue counter decks. Everything else in the format can't touch it because the hate cards just aren't sufficient enough, and ANT has counter-hate answers to them (that it can find with...say it with me...MYSTICAL TUTOR!!!). Granted, all storm combo decks are like this, but the fact that ANT has been the storm deck since Ad Noz was printed should tell you something about how playable those storm decks are relative to it.

Couldn't you just pick any point in the combo-aggro-control triangle and say that the format was warping around it. E.g. since the printing of Wild Nacatl, Zoo's popularity acted as a justification to continue playing combo decks despite the fact that there existed a number of strategies that are very good at beating them, the most familiar and best of which is blue, permission-based decks.

Also, just "format-warping" is a pretty broad classification to begin with. Does force of will warp the format, does swords to plowshares, wild nacatl, tarmogoyf, ad nauseam, entomb, lord of atlantis, daze, wasteland, counterbalance, moat? Those cards certainly have a huge effect on the format and influence deck building and sideboards. When I think of format-warping, I think of a card or strategy that causes the format to devolve into deck vs. anti-deck or card vs. anti-card. Ravager Affinity and Skullclamp both did this to their standard formats. Was the format all ANT vs. anti-ANT? Was it all Mystical Tutor vs. anti-Mystical Tutor? I don't think it was, ANT was a strong strategy, but not one that dominated the format, and in that regard, I don't think it warped the format, so I don't think tutor needed to be banned, because I doubt ANT can survive without it.