Blue 5/3 (Artifact Aggro)

[Hanni]

Ok, I decided to create this thread because the discussion going on in the MUD thread is all over the place. I'm not sure how many people are interested in the aggro approach, but I think the deck has alot of potential.

While I'm sure other color splashes are viable, I prefer the blue splash for Master of Etherium. In a deck with so many artifacts, Master of Etherium can become very big, very fast. His ability to pump all of the other artifact creatures +1/+1 is pretty nice, too.

The benefits of a deck like this in comparison with something like Faerie Stompy is the fact that Metalworker can make the deck extremely explosive. Metalworker to this deck is like Goblin Lackey to Goblins. I've had games where I play Metalworker turn 1, the opponent doesn't have an answer for him right away, and I drop my entire hand on turn 2. Putting your entire hand into play on turn 2 is not something to overlook; it is extremely brutal.

Trinisphere is extremely strong against alot of decks, and much stronger than Force of Will in some matchups (like Zoo, for example).

Here's my current maindeck list (as of 12/5/2010)

Blue 5/3
Artifact Aggro

Lands (24)
4 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Blinkmoth Nexus

Creatures (18)
4 Metalworker
4 Master of Etherium
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Faerie Mechanist
2 Steel Hellkite

Spells (18)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Mox Diamond

[Exospaciac]

There was some discussion of a blue-based artifact deck called Deep Blue a while back.
Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12129-[Deck]-Deep-Blue-(Affinity-x-Fairy-Stompy-s-Lovechild)&highlight=deep+blue) is a link to the thread.

[Infinitium]

Arcum Dagsson is always a possibility, and along with Grim Monolith and Scarecrone it provides enough sacrifice effects/sinks to start considering Su-Chi as well. Pilgrim's Eye fixes mana and carries equipment well enough.

[Vacrix]

Good list dude. Do you really want Grim Monolith at 4 though? You can't really use the acceleration for anything after the initial few turns. Maybe you should find some way to sink that mana and take advantage. Classic Masticore might be a good choice. Same goes for Metalworker.

[Moxie]

I have been playing a deck like this for awhile now.

-I use the same exact manabase, seems to work great.

-Since Sword of Fire and Ice is your only true card draw, I found a playset is better than the split with Jitte.

-Speaking of card draw, Thirst of Knowledge is almost too good in this deck not to use. When you have so many redundant or useless late game artifacts you turn a negative about the deck into a powerful instant draw spell that turns dead Trinispheres/Crucibles/Mox Diamond/Seat of the Synod/Chalice into three cards off the top of you deck. I run three Thirst for Knowledges in my build. With 4x Sword of Fire and Ice and some Thirsts, the deck doesn't feel so dependent on topdecking a monster anymore.

-I've tried Master of Etherium, but he was either too small in close matches or a win-more card. I've been using some Serendib Efreets and I can't tell you how many games I took on the back of a Serendib carrying a Sword. The flying is invaluable, and it's guaranteed 4 toughness makes it out of bolt range.

-Synod Centurion is another solid four mana drop, but it doesn't have a wow-factor like Razormane. Something to consider.

-Metalworker and Grim Monolith are more terrible late game topdecks when you just really want to draw a fatty. Juggernaut and more Synod Centurions could be in this slot. With Mox Diamond and the two mana-producing lands - Metalworker and Grim Monolith are kind of overkill on acceleration. I'd rather use these slots to drop threats, not more acceleration that can clog up your draws.

-And I've always liked Defense Grid in the sideboard, just goes real well with the theme of the deck against blue control decks.

Decklist for reference:

Land:
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Island
4x Wasteland
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Mishra's Factory

Creatures:
4x Serendib Efreet
4x Juggernaut
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Synod Centurion Master of Etherium (Giving this guy another try)

Utility and Draw:
4x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Mox Diamond
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Crucible of Worlds

[Hanni]

There was some discussion of a blue-based artifact deck called Deep Blue a while back.
Here is a link to the thread.

The original Deep Blue (the one IBA made) was a much different direction than 5/3. Maybe by the end it evolved to something close to this, I haven't looked at that thread in a while. If a mod feels that it in fact has, and that this thread should be merged there, go for it.


Arcum Dagsson is always a possibility, and along with Grim Monolith and Scarecrone it provides enough sacrifice effects/sinks to start considering Su-Chi as well. Pilgrim's Eye fixes mana and carries equipment well enough.

Those all seem way too weak for their cost/effect. I'm not trying to add cute sacrifice/recur elements, I just want straight beatsticks. Master of Etherium is very effecient in p/t for cost, averaging a 5/5 body by turn 3 for 3 mana. Lodestone is good because 5 power for 4 mana is solid, while his ability is an awesome bonus. Su-Chi is solid as a 4/4 for 4.


Good list dude. Do you really want Grim Monolith at 4 though? You can't really use the acceleration for anything after the initial few turns. Maybe you should find some way to sink that mana and take advantage. Classic Masticore might be a good choice. Same goes for Metalworker.

The more I test, the more I tend to agree with Grim Monolith not really fitting here. It seems more fit for actual Stax decks than it does with this deck. I guess Grim Monolith simply rejuvenated my interest in artifact decks, and this one happens to be one that isn't benefited much from it. Turn 1 Metalworker's and Trinisphere's are nice, but beyond that, Grim Monolith has been lackluster.


-Since Sword of Fire and Ice is your only true card draw, I found a playset is better than the split with Jitte.

After testing, I've decided that Sword of Fire and Ice is the better equipment piece. Without Jitte or Grim Monolith, Chalice @ 2 gets alot stronger. SoFI is so good because it instantly makes my guys +2/+2, which is usually enough to make that 5/3 Lodestone Golem big enough to swing without dying to an enemy Goyf or whatever, whereas Jitte needs to become active first. The fact that it becomes a consistent draw engine when attached to a flyer is awesome.


-Speaking of card draw, Thirst of Knowledge is almost too good in this deck not to use. When you have so many redundant or useless late game artifacts you turn a negative about the deck into a powerful instant draw spell that turns dead Trinispheres/Crucibles/Mox Diamond/Seat of the Synod/Chalice into three cards off the top of you deck. I run three Thirst for Knowledges in my build. With 4x Sword of Fire and Ice and some Thirsts, the deck doesn't feel so dependent on topdecking a monster anymore.

I'm very up in the air with Thirst for Knowledge.

On one hand, it almost always is a 3 mana draw 3, since I run so many artifacts and there's almost always 1 that's a dead card in hand to pitch. On the other hand, unless I stick a Metalworker early, my hand is usually full because everything is pretty expensive. So it's completely dead to me in most early games, since it destroys my tempo. This is where Faerie Mechanist is better, since it provides me with a 2/2 body in addition to a card advantage effect. I'd much sooner run a playset of Faerie Mechanists before I run TfK.

Between Mechanist and SoFI, is TfK even needed at that point? I'm leaning towards no, but I could be wrong.

Another concern I have is that since it's a non-artifact, it lowers my consistency with Metalworker and Mechanist.


-I've tried Master of Etherium, but he was either too small in close matches or a win-more card. I've been using some Serendib Efreets and I can't tell you how many games I took on the back of a Serendib carrying a Sword. The flying is invaluable, and it's guaranteed 4 toughness makes it out of bolt range.

Master of Etherium is a house. I've had many games where Master of Etherium is a 5/5 on turn 2. On average, he's almost always a 5/5 or bigger by turn 3. 2U for even a 4/4 is solid, beating out Su-Chi and other similar guys. 2U for a 5/5 is incredily efficient in p/t, and I've had plenty of games where he's 7/7 or even bigger and is simply a monster that my opponent has a hard time dealing with. The fact that he can make my other guys bigger is something that needs to not be overlooked. Making Metalworker's into 2/3's puts them at the same size as Kird Ape's. It pushes Lodestone Golem's toughness out of Bolt and Nacatl range. I can go on and on about how significant the "lord" ability has been for me, but I'm hoping you get the idea.

What do you mean by a 2U spell being win-more? If you mean that everytime you cast him, you win more, then yes.


-Synod Centurion is another solid four mana drop, but it doesn't have a wow-factor like Razormane. Something to consider.

I'd sooner run Su-Chi. However, I'd sooner run Faerie Mechanist than Su-Chi.


-Metalworker and Grim Monolith are more terrible late game topdecks when you just really want to draw a fatty. Juggernaut and more Synod Centurions could be in this slot. With Mox Diamond and the two mana-producing lands - Metalworker and Grim Monolith are kind of overkill on acceleration. I'd rather use these slots to drop threats, not more acceleration that can clog up your draws.

I agree that Monolith has been pretty bad, but Metalworker? That's the enitre reason to play this deck over something like Faerie Stompy. The ability to go turn 1 Metalworker, turn 2 'empty my entire hand full of big creatures and equipment' is what makes this deck so attractive. With so many expensive bombs in this deck, even midgame Metalworker's can come down and help to empty a hand. Combine drawing effects with Faerie Mechanist and Sword of Fire and Ice, and his mana ramp is almost always useful, throughout the entire game. The fact that he's a still a creature that can wear equipment makes him undeniably the best card in the deck. I'd never consider cutting him below anything but 4.


-And I've always liked Defense Grid in the sideboard, just goes real well with the theme of the deck against blue control decks.

I'm not quite sure about my sideboard yet. You may very well be right.

Here's a revised list, given other's feedbacks as well as some of my own testing experience:

// Lands
4 [IN] Island (2)
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [CFX] Faerie Mechanist
2 [FD] Razormane Masticore

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [V09] Trinisphere
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Razormane Masticore
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

The sideboard is still missing 3 cards, which could be a number of things. Also... instead of Tormod's Crypt, would Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience be a stronger option?

Blinkmoth Nexus seems much stronger than Mishra's Factory now that I'm running Sword of Fire and Ice instead of Umezawa's Jitte. Flying also helps push the extra damage through once the ground gets clogged regardless, and I typically find my manlands being more of a lategame threat than an early game one.

Keep the discussion coming, this is good stuff guys. =]

[Moxie]

Blinkmoth/Factories: Whatever works, but you wouldn't need to sacrifice power for evasion if you had some evasive creatures (more on this later)

Master of Etherium is too good to pass up, I was wrong for ever taking him out. I especially like that he's only 3 mana. Don't think he's an auto-4-of, but he definitely belongs here.

Which is what I don't really like about Razormane (and he has the most significant drawback of any of the debatable creatures), he's 5cc. Not that this deck can't afford a 5 mana card, but he doesn't seem to bring about too much positives compared to cheaper alternatives. I suppose it can come down to a meta call here.

I highly, highly recommend Serendib Efreet for a test. He doesn't pump Etherium, but Etherium is going to be soo big it won't matter to him. The up is that he's very cheap and just wins games with his flying.

I'm still not sold on Metalworker, obviously it can do sick things on turn 2 or 3, but I've never felt like this deck lacked acceleration with the diamonds and Tomb/City. There's a point where you can have too much acceleration and not enough to do with it, I think Metalworker puts this deck past that point. And when you get to that point, you're hurting your deck. For three mana you could be laying a fatty down, putting a lock card in play, or drawing cards - not sure that putting a 1/2 acceleration creature into play is what this decks wants to do with that three mana.

[Hanni]

Blinkmoth/Factories: Whatever works, but you wouldn't need to sacrifice power for evasion if you had some evasive creatures (more on this later)

You only sacrifice one power for flying. Seems worth it to me. Flying means I'm squeezing more damage through, which will be frequently since I don't run real targeted removal. Plus, he carries a SoFI much better than Factory.

The difference between the two isn't so massive that Factory is bad and Blinkmoth is strictly superior. Both have pros and cons. Since I'm running SoFI and Faerie Mechanist now, I decided Blinkmoth made more sense.


Master of Etherium is too good to pass up, I was wrong for ever taking him out. I especially like that he's only 3 mana. Don't think he's an auto-4-of, but he definitely belongs here.

This is a Stax-like deck. Anything that you want to see with any sort of consistency, you run 4 of. I hate drawing multiple Trinisphere's, but I run 4 so that I can see them more frequently. Difference is, I love drawing multiple MoE's. You can run less than 4, but I wouldn't.


Which is what I don't really like about Razormane (and he has the most significant drawback of any of the debatable creatures), he's 5cc. Not that this deck can't afford a 5 mana card, but he doesn't seem to bring about too much positives compared to cheaper alternatives. I suppose it can come down to a meta call here.

I seem to keep playing against alot of aggro lately. A 5/5 first strike is a great body to hold off opposing 4/5 Tarmogoyf's with, and the 3 targeted damage a turn helps kill alot of the dumb aggro I've been seeing. His drawback sucks, but since this deck has a ton of dead cards + draw engines, it's not so bad. If I didn't continue to run into aggro deck after aggro deck, I'd cut them. For now, I don't know what else I'd run. I need some sort of anti aggro bomb... more equipment (Jitte) could be a good call, but it still requires I have a creature in play. I love ripping the 5cc bomb (and yes, 5 mana is easy to get) and dropping it in front of some aggro.


I highly, highly recommend Serendib Efreet for a test. He doesn't pump Etherium, but Etherium is going to be soo big it won't matter to him. The up is that he's very cheap and just wins games with his flying.

A 3/4 flyer for 2U is solid, but I tried using nonartifact creatures before. They all clashed with the deck really bad. He costs 1 more under Lodestone Golem, he doesn't produce mana from Metalworker, he cannot be grabbed with Faerie Mechanist, he does not pump Master of Etherium, and Master of Etherium does not pump him. If I want some more flyers, I'd be looking into Esperzoa first. If I went the Esperzoa route, I'd also look into Tangle Wire.

-2 Razormane Masticore
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice
-2 Crucible of Worlds

+2 Esperzoa
+3 Tangle Wire

Something like that.


I'm still not sold on Metalworker, obviously it can do sick things on turn 2 or 3, but I've never felt like this deck lacked acceleration with the diamonds and Tomb/City. There's a point where you can have too much acceleration and not enough to do with it, I think Metalworker puts this deck past that point. And when you get to that point, you're hurting your deck. For three mana you could be laying a fatty down, putting a lock card in play, or drawing cards - not sure that putting a 1/2 acceleration creature into play is what this decks wants to do with that three mana.

Metalworker IS the deck. Without him, you're playing a very shitty version of Faerie Stompy.

Maybe you were playing a version very different from mine. With Lodestone Golems, Faerie Mechanists, Razormane Golems, Swords of Fire and Ice, etc etc etc... I have lots of spells that stay clumped in my hand. Without super accel from Metalworker, I'm usually casting 1 spell a turn. Once Metalworker resolves, and I tap him for 8-ish mana (plus the mana my lands tap for), I can explode and empty my hand. I win so many games because my opponent doesn't/can't counter Metalworker and doesn't have a removal spell for him before my next mainphase.

Basically, with so many big costed spells, you won't be dropping your whole hand without Metalworker. You usually can cast 1 spell a turn, and with drawing 1 card a turn, it will take a while to empty your hand. With Metalworker, you can drop your entire hand the turn he taps for mana. Trust me, Metalworker is the backbone of this entire deck.

[Rood]

No love for FoF? You should be able to drop it pretty easily in a deck like this and it would enable you some solid CA.

[Hanni]

I had considered Fact or Fiction, the same time I considered Thirst for Knowledge. My problem with the draw-only spells is that I'm not a control deck, and I'm losing a significant amount of tempo when I cast it instead of a creature/equipment/lock piece. This is why I like Faerie Mechanist so much: you get a 2/2 flying body attached to the draw effect.

I'd gladly argue that Faerie Mechanist > any other non creature draw spell.

How much more draw does the deck need? With flyers + SoFI, and Faerie Mechanist, how often are people emptying their hand of all these expensive spells and still needing more draw?

Not only that, but non-artifact spells clash with the decks inner design, in this case, FoF costs more with Lodesetone Golem, and FoF's that are just sitting in hand when you have more relevant spells to cast makes no mana for Metalworker.

I'm not ruling spells like FoF out of the question, because they clearly deserve more testing. I'm simply saying that my earlier testing with draw-only spells like Thirst for Knowledge tilted towards unecessary and clunky.

[from Cairo]

Land:
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Island
4x Wasteland
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Mishra's Factory

Creatures:
4x Serendib Efreet
4x Juggernaut
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Master of Etherium

Utility and Draw:
4x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Mox Diamond
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Crucible of Worlds

This list -3 Thirst +3 Faerie Mechanist seems like a very strong starting point. I agree with Hanni- while Thirst is a 3 mana draw 3, it's also a tempo sink that the deck would like to avoid. Mechanists boosts the evasive creature count which is great and digs for more gas.

The only other slot I'm not completely sold on is Juggernaut; his 5/3 body with no beneficial effect feels lacking with Zoo (Bolt, Chain, Nacatl) being such a prominant deck. Synod Centurion may prove to be come out ahead sacrificing a power to gain a toughness (at 4/4 it wins vs Rhox War Monk). It's probably a meta call, but with the July bannings it seems like the format may revert back a bit to less combo and more creature based interaction, in such cases Centurion feels safer.

Sideboard, I'd definitely run Thorn of Amethyst before Sphere of Resistance. You want balls against Combo, and there's no reason to make your men cost more mana when you don't have to.

[Hanni]

I just got totally owned by some MUC deck that splashed green and red (basics and fetchlands)... because of Back to Basics. B2B owns this deck. I've functioned 100% under enemy Blood Moons before... I've survived Wastelocks before... B2B is brutal. Plus I couldn't resolve any of my Metalworker's, and he EE'd my Moxes. Yea, bad matchup. I'd be so bold as to say that MUC with B2B, or any deck with B2B, is going to be rough.

My concern now is: what about Merfolk lists running B2B in the sideboard? Between us having Islands and Merfolk bringing in B2B... is this also a horrible matchup? I haven't gotten to test vs Merfolk yet, but I'm assuming it's not a good matchup.

Resolving Metalworker is pretty much key against them if they bring in B2B, which I'm sure is going to be alot easier than it was against MUC, since they run 4 FoW as their only hard counter and no creature removal. Still though, seems rough.

[Hanni]

I edited and updated the original post.

I see alot of people posting decklists in the MUD thread with Master of Etherium. Those lists would make more sense getting posted in this thread. What gives?

[Rico Suave]

I have a few thoughts on this subject, but you might find them radically different from where you are hoping to go with this deck. On the other hand, you might appreciate them so I'll post here for your benefit.

In my opinion, there are two cards in particular that most people in the Legacy community gravitate towards when creating an artifact based deck. Those cards are Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void. Many people view these cards as precious as the hindu cow, but I view them as extremely overrated. I'm not saying they're bad, just overrated.

I think Trinisphere is powerful, but the acceleration required to get it into play at an appropriate time is is very taxing on the deck. Mishra's Workshop -> Trinisphere is a nice 2 card combo, but it takes 4(!) cards to create a first turn Trinisphere in Legacy. When the deck must follow up with immediate pressure afterwords, it can be difficult getting that picture perfect 6 card opener. Furthermore, Trinisphere gets much weaker after the first turn, and it's not so hot on the draw even if you do manage to get it first turn. Chalice of the Void is also quite potent. Setting it at 1 can really put a hurt on a lot of decks. But there are a lot of drawbacks to running this card as well, namely the fact that it prevents your own deck from playing its own 1 drops.

Keep in mind I'm not telling you to take these cards out and never play them again. I'm merely trying to point out that by not playing these cards, it opens up other avenues in deckbuilding. You'll have to decide for yourself which approach is better.

Now, with that out of the way here are some ideas:

1) Goblin Welder is amazing in this type of deck. He *must* be stopped. He does what you want Trinisphere and Chalice to do; he lets your deck ignore counterspells and he nullifies removal. But when he's not busy making your opponent's cards useless, he's a monstrous threat too. Now sure he'll frequently eat removal, but that's removal not aimed at your Metalworker (or vice versa) and when he isn't removed he just wins the game.

2) You expressed that because everything was so expensive, you couldn't ever empty your hand of threats, and consequently this makes something like TFK weak. This is because the deck lacks flow, and I think all good decks have a certain flow to them.

A good place to try and help fix this flow is with the mana acceleration. I'm not a big fan of Mox Diamond, but I am a big fan of Grim Monolith. Voltaic Key is also quite good with Grim Monolith, as not only can you untap the Monolith but also the Metalworker.

Consider what happens when your hand is Diamond, Diamond, Tomb, Seat, City of Traitors. This is pretty rough, and I've seen a lot of instant mulligans with 2 Diamonds in them. Now compare this to when your hand is Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key, Tomb, Seat, City of Traitors. The difference of 4 mana vs. 10 mana is astounding, and will go a long way towards helping you cast your hand even without Metalworker. You get to drop 2 threats in one turn instead of just 1!

Furthermore, I feel that having 1 drops in Voltaic Key and 2 drops in Grim Monolith can help your deck start to resemble a mana curve, instead of starting at 3 mana which can be wildly inconsistent.

3) Sensei's Divining Top is a really good card. It gets better when playing Voltaic Key, because Key + Top is a draw engine. 2 Keys and a Top is an Ancestral each turn. The cool part is Key untaps Monolith when you're looking to dump your hand on the board, and when your hand is empty you can use Key with Top to fill it back up.

Top also has impressive synergy with Welder, where you can stack Top's draw then Weld the Top into whatever artifact in the grave is most appealing. Welder/Top/Key is 2 extra cards per turn, with all the usual Welding tricks like untapping Monolith and bringing back scary artifacts.

4) Thirst for Knowledge is really powerful. It is extremely powerful when you have a Welder on the board. You don't need to pay 4 mana to cast a Lodestone Golem - you can pay 3 to cast TFK and Weld it in. Now, substitute Golem with whatever artifact you want like Duplicant or Platinum Angel or Sundering Titan.

5) Esperzoa is nice. It kinda sucks when all your other artifacts are 3 mana and up, because you don't want to recast them when you already have enough trouble casting your hand. But when your Esperzoa returns a tapped Grim Monolith to your hand? Or better yet, use Voltaic Key to untap the Monolith first then return the Key (letting you use Key twice in the same turn!). That's just good. And best of all, you can just play Tangle Wire and lock them out with Esperzoa bouncing it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that's enough for now. I tried to stress it in the individual points, but I just want to reiterate how much synergy there is to be had in this kind of deck.

I tend to value consistency, resilience, and efficiency when creating a deck. I like having an agile deck. I feel that all of these values improve when taking Trini/Chalice out of the deck, though the deck does lose raw power in first turn plays. Anyway, just some food for thought.

[heroicraptor]

Something like this?

// Mana 26
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Broken 15
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
3 [US] Voltaic Key

// Draw 7
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge

// Beaters 12
3 [10E] Juggernaut
3 [CFX] Esperzoa
3 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
3 [ALA] Master of Etherium

[Hanni]

The whole point of Welder is that you can put into play any cmc artifact. That means you should be looking at big guys like Sundering Titan. At the point where you start running stuff like that, you're looking at a different type of artifact deck. Same thing with Key + Monolith... if you're trying to generate that type of mana, you're looking at a big mana + bombs deck. This is the wrong thread for that idea. The MUD thread has so many different ideas getting tossed around, and I created this thread specifically for the development of the 5/3-style aggro approach.

The aggro approach does not need any extra acceleration beyond the double mana lands, Moxes, and Metalworker. I did run Monolith for a time, but it wasn't very good.

And yes, Chalice is important for this deck. Chalice is overrated in Stompy decks for a reason: it's asymmetrical, hoses alot of decks, and shuts off the most commonly played removal spells.

I still like Trinisphere because of its ability to slow my opponent down during the early game, allowing me the time I need to get my deck going. Much like Chalice, it's asymmetrical and hoses alot of decks. I don't get as much benefit out of it as a deck like Stax, which dedicates alot more cards towards land destruction (Smokestack, Armageddon, etc), but it's still a strong card for this deck.

This deck is a midrange aggro/control deck. Chalice and Trinisphere are my Force of Will and Daze.

---

tl;dr The idea you are presenting is a valid approach, but you are discussing a different type of deck. This is the wrong thread for it.

---

Esperzoa + Tangle Wire is a nice combo. I could drop 4 Trinisphere for 4 Tangle Wire and 2 Crucible of Worlds/2 Razormane Masticore for 4 Esperzoa. I'm not sure that I want to go that route, but it's definitely a viable option to consider and discuss.

[jazzykat]

@Rico: Very interesting observations.

I feel that 3sphere without enough LD (waste, smokey, armageddon, etc.) /Tap effects (wire,winter orb) is nothing more than a glorified defense grid. Your opponent choses wether to counter your 1 spell a turn or get to play one of theirs. Sometimes, they out land drop you.

Chalice is not over rated EVER. CoTV=1 stops a ton of opponents decks. I have continued to advocate playing 4 chalice and 4 welder because only having 4 dead cards is much better than the ~16 that your opponent has.

I have heavily tested URMud and the blood moons which were all the red was their for was not worth it in the general sense. New Horizons and landstill cried but anything with Noble Hierarch or can see what's coming usually had enough time to fetch out enough basics.

I think that there is some type of synergy to be had with:

Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key, Metal Worker, 3sphere, Golem, Esperzoa, Tanglewire, and WINTER ORB. It's one thing to make your opponent pay 3 for Daze but every time they do, you recover a turn faster with your tap for 2 lands. The average manabase can only take so much pressure until it crumbles. We just need to find a happy place where the regular manabases can't take our disruption anmymore. Blood moon is of course hillarious vs. Landstill and Lands so it shouldn't be totally kept off the table.

[bleuisforwhimps]

@heroicraptor:
Cut the juggernaut and the esperzoa. the juggernaut sucks and esperzoa is no good if you don't play tanglewire. And i don't really see the point of goblin welder here in your list.If I would go the monolith-key route i'd probably go for something like this:

4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [IN] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland

4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [WWK] Pilgrim's eye
4 [CFX] Faerie Mechanist
2 [DS] Sundering Titan
4 [UD] Metalworker


4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice




4 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [US] Voltaic Key
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Lotus Petal


And yeah, lotus petal instead of Mox diamond so you can cut the land count and include more business.What bothers me a bit is the lack of disruption but i guess you just have to rush out of the gates and overwhelm the enemy before he can do anything.

[Windux]

This is the list, I am testing at the moment:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [GUR] Island
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [CNF] Esperzoa
2 [10E] Razormane Masticore
4 [CNF] Faerie Mechanist

// Spells
3 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [FD] Silent Arbiter

Lands+Mox+Grim = 30 Sources.
4 Grim Monolith just are not necessary. Metalworker are manadumps, which you don't need.
Ok, he wins if he sticks, but mostly you just can smash some other stuff on the board instead of metalworker, which also makes hugh pressure.

2 Swords as equipment: With just 18 creatures I wouldn't run that many. Also our creautres costs 3-4 mana and big enough. Mechanist tutors the equipments up for us as well.

I don't know if the sideboard is optimal.
Propaganda, Crypt and Silent Arbiter makes our Dredge-matchup very positive. Propgaganda and Arbiter are also nice against Zoo and Tribal decks.
Trinisphere #4 is against combo
CoW #4 is against staxx ( ;) ) and control-decks.

Maybe we can cut something for more Powder kegs (maybe some Arbiters, because Keg is an Zoo and Dredge hoser as well) and also put in some Pithing Needles.
Planeswalker, Survivals and Deeds are really awful for us, if they stick.

[Hanni]

I'm going to quote myself from the MUD thread:


I cannot understand why I am constantly seeing people in this thread dismissing Metalworker.

Yes, he is a magnet for removal. That's because if the opponent does not answer him before you get an untap step, you will likely win the game. Either the opponent has an immediate answer, or you bury them in tempo. Metalworker to this deck is like Goblin Lackey to Goblins.

I'm not trying to offend you, Windux. There have been alot of people who have suggested cutting Metalworker. I just wonder if all the people who are cutting him have actually tried playtesting the deck with and without him.


Propaganda, Crypt and Silent Arbiter makes our Dredge-matchup very positive.

Dredge is a good matchup. We slow them down significantly Chalice/Trinisphere/Wasteland, and Metalworker can drop our entire hand of fat to block Ichorids and race them with damage. Activating Blinkmoth and Wastelanding to destroy their Bridges is a strong play; it actually won me a game against Dredge last night.

Postboard, the 4 Tormod's Crypt's are sufficient. All you need to do is just slow them down so that you can beat them down before they go broken. All the excess Dredge hate just seems unecessary.

Turn 1 Metalworker is insane against them.

[from Cairo]

list.
Why Esperzoa over Serendib Efreet in this list? Without Tangle Wire or a citp effect Artifact, Esperzoa's ability is just a drawback. Esperzoa's 3 toughness is also a pretty sizable drawback in the current meta. Efreet fills the same evasive beater role, is less of a tempo disruption (no recasting lock pieces/guys) and routinely nets a 2 for 1 against agro. Other than buffing Master of the Etherium I don't see much benefit to Esperzoa.

[Rico Suave]

The whole point of Welder is that you can put into play any cmc artifact. That means you should be looking at big guys like Sundering Titan. At the point where you start running stuff like that, you're looking at a different type of artifact deck. Same thing with Key + Monolith... if you're trying to generate that type of mana, you're looking at a big mana + bombs deck. This is the wrong thread for that idea. The MUD thread has so many different ideas getting tossed around, and I created this thread specifically for the development of the 5/3-style aggro approach.

The aggro approach does not need any extra acceleration beyond the double mana lands, Moxes, and Metalworker. I did run Monolith for a time, but it wasn't very good.

And yes, Chalice is important for this deck. Chalice is overrated in Stompy decks for a reason: it's asymmetrical, hoses alot of decks, and shuts off the most commonly played removal spells.

I still like Trinisphere because of its ability to slow my opponent down during the early game, allowing me the time I need to get my deck going. Much like Chalice, it's asymmetrical and hoses alot of decks. I don't get as much benefit out of it as a deck like Stax, which dedicates alot more cards towards land destruction (Smokestack, Armageddon, etc), but it's still a strong card for this deck.

This deck is a midrange aggro/control deck. Chalice and Trinisphere are my Force of Will and Daze.

---

tl;dr The idea you are presenting is a valid approach, but you are discussing a different type of deck. This is the wrong thread for it.

---

Esperzoa + Tangle Wire is a nice combo. I could drop 4 Trinisphere for 4 Tangle Wire and 2 Crucible of Worlds/2 Razormane Masticore for 4 Esperzoa. I'm not sure that I want to go that route, but it's definitely a viable option to consider and discuss.

I don't think a deck *needs* to include large artifacts in order to make use of cards like Key or Welder. I'm perfectly fine playing the normal artifacts like Lodestone Golem. Sure the potential is there to discard a Titan to TFK and Weld it in, but I still enjoy being able to cast my spells normally too. Take a hand like this:

Island
Island
Key
Monolith

This isn't good because it has a potential for a giant fattie. It is good because it is putting a Lodestone Golem into play on turn 2. Similarly, using Welder to return a Lodestone Golem into play after they Force of Will it is also very strong.

Nevertheless, if you do feel that this deck just isn't the same without Trinisphere and Chalice, then that is your right. I still think there are legitimate disruption cards like Tangle Wire which not only maintain the aggro-control flavor but perhaps even enhance it beyond what Trini/Chalice can do.


@Rico: Very interesting observations.

I feel that 3sphere without enough LD (waste, smokey, armageddon, etc.) /Tap effects (wire,winter orb) is nothing more than a glorified defense grid. Your opponent choses wether to counter your 1 spell a turn or get to play one of theirs. Sometimes, they out land drop you.

Chalice is not over rated EVER. CoTV=1 stops a ton of opponents decks. I have continued to advocate playing 4 chalice and 4 welder because only having 4 dead cards is much better than the ~16 that your opponent has.

I have heavily tested URMud and the blood moons which were all the red was their for was not worth it in the general sense. New Horizons and landstill cried but anything with Noble Hierarch or can see what's coming usually had enough time to fetch out enough basics.

I think that there is some type of synergy to be had with:

Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key, Metal Worker, 3sphere, Golem, Esperzoa, Tanglewire, and WINTER ORB. It's one thing to make your opponent pay 3 for Daze but every time they do, you recover a turn faster with your tap for 2 lands. The average manabase can only take so much pressure until it crumbles. We just need to find a happy place where the regular manabases can't take our disruption anmymore. Blood moon is of course hillarious vs. Landstill and Lands so it shouldn't be totally kept off the table.

I hear where you are coming from on Chalice, and in many ways I agree. I was merely trying to point out that other cards like Top, Key, and Welder are quite good as well. I have successfully run 4 each of Brainstorm/Welder/Chalice in the past, so I understand how Chalice doesn't necessarily prevent the deck from running the other 1 drops, but that was in Vintage too.

I especially agree with you regarding Winter Orb. I feel it is just as powerful as Blood Moon against the "Lands" decks like 43lands and Landstill. On the other hand, I feel it also strong against other mid-range / control decks like The Rock, or mono-white control, or the various other random decks that show up in an average Legacy field. When The Rock taps out for a turn 3 Deed, how brutal is it to play Winter Orb and force them up to 4 mana before Golem kills them?

[Hanni]

I don't think a deck *needs* to include large artifacts in order to make use of cards like Key or Welder.

I run 24 lands, 4 Moxes, 4 Metalworkers, and 2 Crucibles. That's essentially 34 cards dedicated to mana sources already. I understand that there are other functions in there as well, like Wasteland destroying lands, Blinkmoth Nexus becoming a 1/1 flyer, so on and so forth. Doesn't change the fact that there are already 34 cards in the deck that function as a mana source.

You put an additional 4 Goblin Welder, 4 Grim Monolith, and 4 Voltaic Key into the deck, and now you have 46 cards in the deck that are functioning as mana sources. I realize Goblin Welder can be more than just mana generation, "reanimating" dead creatures and such. Doesn't change the fact that the deck now has 46 cards that function as a mana source.

The current amount of mana sources and acceleration pieces that I have is a perfect blend for the midrange aggro/control approach. I've playtested the deck alot, and that was the conclusion I've come to.

If you increase the mana sources to the amount you are suggesting, roughly 3/4's of your deck is a mana source. At that point, you should most certainly be running bombs, because you have shifted the deck to become a big mana + bombs approach. You will too frequently have an abundance of mana, essentially overkill, for a midrange aggro/control approach. It may increase the amount of times you can accelerate into dropping your hand, but the quality of the cards that you do drop will be much lower than dropping bombs. If you are replacing Chalice/Trinisphere with these accelerations, your aggro plan also becomes weaker because they will more frequently be the victim of creature removal, the opponent will have more of their own creatures in play, etc.

Tangle Wire is sometimes a better card than Trinisphere, I agree, but if you are capable of fitting Tangle Wire in the Trinisphere slots, what other 12 spells are you cutting to fit in Welder/Monolith/Key?

I'm not quite sure what matchups Esperzoa + Tangle Wire would be an improvement towards, in comparison with my current list. Once I figure that out, that combination of cards can either be maindecked (if it's worthy of such), or can become a sideboard plan for the matchups it improves. I'm thinking 2 Esperzoa and 4 Tangle Wire would be the appropriate call in either case, since multiple Esperzoa's seem pretty bad together.

As far as Winter Orb goes, I think that it is a great card for Stax decks. It's a very strong lock piece that has the potential to slow the game down to a turtles pace, especially against control decks. I do not think that it has a place in an aggro version though, since its much more symmetrical.

I do think the sideboard could use some cards that are strong against control decks, I'm just not sure that Winter Orb is the way I'd go. Right now I bring in Crucible/Smokestack against control decks, because Crucible/Wasteland/Smokestack is really strong against them. However, both Tangle Wire and Thorn of Amethyst can be strong against control decks too, and I'd explore those options first before Winter Orb, since they are more asymmetrical. Funny enough, I'm already running Thorn of Amethyst in my sideboard, but its purpose has been primarily as additional disruption against combo decks.

Smokestack does somewhat lack synergy with the fact that I want to generate as many artifacts in play as possible for Master of Etherium, and a beatdown plan in general vs a control/lock plan, so it's possible that the Esperzoa/Tangle Wire plan would be much better to board into than the Crucible/Smokestack plan. For now, I'd like to continue to test the Crucible/Wasteland/Smokestack plan against control decks, though... it's just such a powerful combination against decks like Landstill. Against Lands, I'd bring in Tormod's Crypt instead of Smokestack or Tangle Wire anyway, and Crucible/Wasteland is extremely strong if they don't have the Loam engine going.

---

One of the best things I've found with this deck is the increased amount of consistency in comparison with normal Stax decks. There are several reasons for this:

First of all, the deck runs less dead-in-multiples cards, like Trinisphere, than your average Stax deck.

Secondly, similar to Zoo, this deck gains consistency in redundancy: redundancy of mana production and redundancy of creatures.

Lastly, the deck has a very powerful draw engine with Faerie Mechanist and Sword of Fire and Ice.

While Metalworker feels like the Goblin Lackey of this deck, Faerie Mechanist feels like the Goblin Ringleader. It may only draw 1 card when it comes into play, but it puts the other 2 cards, which would often be dead draws, to the bottom of the library. So in essence, it's like a virtual draw 3 for this deck. Faerie Mechanist has been nothing short of stellar for me.

Sword of Fire and Ice is alot more difficult to draw cards with, and usually the game is over shortly when I am able to draw cards with it anyway, but it's still a strong draw engine. Drawing 2 cards a turn (or more with multiple Sword of Fire and Ices') buries an opponent in card advantage very quickly because of how strong each card is in this deck.

I'd also like to say, despite there being only minimal discussion on this thread, I really think my decklist is close to optimal. My flex spots are the 2 Razormane Masticores and 2 Crucible of Worlds (which are very strong anyway), and the rest of the entire shell feels correct. I've been playing alot of games with this deck, and I haven't found myself wanting to change the maindeck configuration whatsoever. The deck has been really strong, and I've been winning alot of games with it. For those that are interested in this deck, I'd highly recommend playtesting the decklist I have posted in my opening post before making any radical changes to the maindeck.

Aside from the fact that this deck is easy to hate out if it ever becomes popular (Back to Basics, Null Rod, Energy Flux, Serenity, etc), I think this deck could quite easily become a Tier 1.5 deck.

[jazzykat]

I tested the following list last night (quick and dirty version) which was based on other of my designs and it produced promising results. I am posting it here because it straddles MUD and 5/3.

4 CoT (I think one should be cut for a Crystal Vein-works better with crucible)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Factory
4 Waste
4 Island-could be a 2/2 split between darksteel citadel and island?
4 Seat of the Synod

4 Mox Diamond

4 Lodestone Golem-Lock with no downside for this deck
4 Esperzoa-Works with wires, orbs, and tapped seat of synod

4 Tanglewire
4 Winter Orb
4 3sphere
4 CoTV
4 Crucible-4 may be too many but it is vital to have enough mana
4 Smokestack- Underwhelming but something is necessary to destroy their permanents

SB
4 Damping Matrix
4 Propaganda-This +winter orb+tangle wire= you don't get hit too often
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Open

Noble Hierarch and Vial are this decks main enemy's Maybe powder keg is also needed?

Almost the whole deck runs on 3 mana. I can safely say that the difference between 3 and 4 mana is huge. Perhaps MoE is the right fit instead of smokestack at 3cc. The strongest pt. about MoE (besides his usual size) is that he increases LG and Ez toughness's out of Bolt/Nacatl/Warmonk range and the power of Ez goes to 5 which is a sure 4 turn clock.

Lastly, I strongly suggest you guys try Winter Orb aggro or not it is synergistic with
2 mana lands
Crucible-recurring lands (vein, CoTV, wasteland)
Esperzoa+most of the deck(bounce artifact lands, or whatever is irritating)
Lodestone's one sided taxing
Propaganda from the board
Tanglwire-tapping lands
3sphere-overcosting things
Mox Diamond-With Diamond and a 2 mana land you can continue to cast 1 thing per turn!

Basically whatever is happening in the game your opponent is being hurt more by winter orb

what all thest type of decks need is a way to turn "extra" lock pieces into business (i.e. your 2nd crucible or 3sphere)

[Philipp2293]

I think I'd replace the Smokestacks with MoE, to give you a way faster clock so and run 3 Powder Keg in the SB. Also you could consider running 1 Tezz instead of the 4th crucible.

[jazzykat]

I think I'd replace the Smokestacks with MoE, to give you a way faster clock so and run 3 Powder Keg in the SB. Also you could consider running 1 Tezz instead of the 4th crucible.

Thanks, I think I will ;)

[Hanni]

Between Tangle Wire, Winter Orb, and Faerie Mechanist, there are plenty of good bounce targets for Esperzoa. Worst case scenario, the deck still has Seat of Synod's it can bounce if it needs to bounce something and doesn't have a juicy target, without losing too much tempo.

This pushes the deck in a different direction than the list I've been working on, but it would still be a Blue 5/3 direction, and I like that (since its actually relevant for my thread).

I'd make the deck less radical than what you have though, Jazzy.

To truly explore this route, my list could potentially cut 12 cards: 2 Razormane Masticore, 2 Crucible of Worlds, 4 Sword of Fire and Ice, and 4 Trinisphere. I wouldn't touch the rest of the shell.

I think 4 Winter Orb is too much maindeck. I'd run 2 MD 2 SB, since it's going to set yourself back too much when you don't have Esperzoa in play. I find that this deck constantly wants to tap alot of lands every turn, and the only matchups where Winter Orb is going to be even decent against would be against control decks. Tangle Wire + Winter Orb could keep an opponent tapped down indefinitely, which seems pretty brutal.

From my list:

-2 Razormane Masticore
-4 Trinisphere
-2 Sword of Fire and Ice
-2 Crucible of Worlds (or 2 more SoFI)

+4 Esperzoa
+4 Tangle Wire
+2 Winter Orb

I'll test this out when I get some time and see if it is an improvement or not. My initial thoughts are that my aggro matchups becomes weaker (specifically Zoo, possibly others), while the control matchup becomes much stronger.

EDIT: Wait, the untap step is before the upkeep step. So Esperzoa doesn't make Winter Orb 1-sided. Meh, that pretty much loses my interest in a maindeck Esperzoa again. Sideboard Esperzoa/Tangle Wire is still a possibility, I'm not really digging Winter Orb though.

Even without the ability to bounce it to make it one sided, Winter Orb and Tangle Wire is still pretty nasty to an opponent. Static Orb too, for that matter. The only problem is that without a way to tap the Orbs before your untap step, they are symmetrical, and it's just not worth it. It's definitely not something for this deck, that's for sure, but it could be an interesting idea for some type of heavy lockdown Stax deck. Too bad Voltaic Key doesn't have the ability to both tap and untap.

[jazzykat]

@Hanni: I think that my list did suffer a bit with Aggro so the MoE suggestion for the smokestack was sorely needed to either have a clock or a fat blocker and pump the other guys.

I may be over rating the power of winter orb, but I t think you aren't fully seeing it's abuses, I'll go to my list above and try to flesh it out more:

Lastly, I strongly suggest you guys try Winter Orb aggro or not it is synergistic with
2 mana lands- you get 2 mana they get 1 from their land. Only untapping 1 land per turn gives you double the amount of mana available per turn.

Crucible-recurring lands (vein, CoTV, wasteland) - Vein and CoTV(even a tapped one) can go to the yard and replayed untapped. Wastelanding their untapped non-basics while they are trying to get out from under 3sphere and LG's effect is also effective.

Esperzoa gives you a tapped seat of the synod (darksteel citadel) citadel back to your hand to be replayed under orb. Pretty good...

Lodestone's one sided taxing- They pay an extra for everything they do, so it tends to add up.

Propaganda from the board- tap 2 to attack only untap 1...

Tanglwire-tapping lands-Obviously bomblike but consider after their lands are tapped down the effectiveness of the wire increases as then their creatures are tapped and they are stuck for a long time. Also, if you want to turn orb off for a turn (it can happen on a strange occaison) i.e. they wasted your Tomb then just tap it with the wire

3sphere-overcosting things: 1 BS sets them back 2 turns of mana...

Mox Diamond-With Diamond and a 2 mana land you can continue to cast 1 thing per turn!

With the cutting of Stack the only 4cmc is LG and he is soo good you can't cut him. When this deck only runs on 3 mana it is pretty sick.

Points:
3sphere isn't really that good without winter orb. With it, it becomes pretty amazing (again).
Razormane is awesome vs. aggro.
SoFI is great, I just don't think I run enough creatures.
Mechanist is really cool, not sure where to put him.
I don't know how many crucibles are really necessary but recurring wasteland is still good.

[Philipp2293]

Hm, another thing I would consider: Instead of the 1-off Tezz I mentioned and the 4th Winter Orb (4 seems a bit of overkill for me) +2 Faerie Mechanist, more evasive beats yay.

[Windux]

Why Esperzoa over Serendib Efreet in this list? Without Tangle Wire or a citp effect Artifact, Esperzoa's ability is just a drawback. Esperzoa's 3 toughness is also a pretty sizable drawback in the current meta. Efreet fills the same evasive beater role, is less of a tempo disruption (no recasting lock pieces/guys) and routinely nets a 2 for 1 against agro. Other than buffing Master of the Etherium I don't see much benefit to Esperzoa.

because of the following synergies:
Master of Etherium gets pumped and Esperzoa gets pumped by him.
Lodestone Golem makes Efreet costs 1 more. Esperzoa still costs 3.
Faerie Mechanist can fetch Esperzoa, but not Efreet.
Esperzoa can bounce Mechanist for more cardadvantage (ok, it costs 4 but if you have nothing on your hand and need to find critter or something, it's great).
It can bounce things against a Deed or Explosive.
It can bounce useless dropped cards and let them discard for Razormane Masticore

EDIT:
Winter Orb against aggro-control and heavy counter control:
You need to tap at least 2 Lands (Tomb and City) to get anything out.
What they need to counter it:
- Spell Pierce = 1 Mana/1 Land (or you need another 2 mana open, which costs you 1 or 2 turns)
- Daze = 0 Mana + getting 1 land untapped
- Force = 0 Mana
- Counterspell = 2 Mana/2 Lands
- Swords to Plowshare for your beaters = 1 Mana/1 Land

So Winter Orb is godd when you have:
- Wastelock = 2 cards (CoW+Wasteland)
- Chalice on 1 (against Swords and Pierce)
- Trinisphere + 2cc Lands (Their Spells costs them 3 "Lands" and you need to spit something out earlier then they can untap 3 Lands + You maybe need a spell that your opponent counters, so that you can play your bomb).

It's good against Deed, Jace and Grip but what else do they play?
Maybe I think it's bad because the metagame in my area in germany is so different (for example, here they don't play tha much Lightning Bolts whoch makes Esperzoa better).

[Hanni]

Winter Orb isn't very good for the aggro decks because the deck isn't supposed to lock down the opponent at the expense of a symmetrical lockpiece. Winter Orb hurts just as bad, because it slows the deck down from dropping creatures. The deck may have 2-mana lands, but it also wants to cast 3-4 mana spells. It's only going to be strong against dedicated control decks. It's only situationally good against anything else, requiring a Crucible/Wasteland lock or a Trinisphere to be in play for it to be effective.

@ Jazzy, there is nothing wrong with the cards and ideas you have suggested. They are Stax cards, though, and belong in a Stax thread. This deck isn't a Stax deck, it is an artifact aggro deck. While the two decks may run alot of the same cards, they are very different decks. This decks primary goal is to drop creatures and swing; Winter Orb slows that process down. In Stax, the goal is to lock down the opponent and shut them out of the game; Winter Orb is very good at aiding that plan.

@ Windux, I'd recommend 4 Metalworker's for your build. Trust me, they are irreplaceable.

[Windux]

I'm open for Metalworker.
I would cut 2 Grim Monolith for it, but what else?
I'm fine with the number of mana-sources and I don't want to play more.
Monolith is even good, because with Tomb it boosts me to 3 in the same turn and the turn after to 5 (or if I get wasted to4).
This fact seems really relevant to me.

[jazzykat]

1. Play Metalworker, I can't believe I've played so many games without him. He is an automatic concession machine.

2. Here is my deck:

// Lands
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [HOP] Seat of the Synod
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
2 [BD] Island (3)
2 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
1 [MI] Crystal Vein

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Esperzoa
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
2 [CFX] Faerie Mechanist
4 [UD] Metalworker

// Spells
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [MR] Damping Matrix
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [MPR] Powder Keg

Adding Metalworker made the deck even better.
If you run equipment I think a split of SoFI and SoLS should be run. Both are relevant in this metagame.
I get frustrated trying to ramp for Razormane's CC sometimes. The way I have configured the deck it is mostly 3 cmc. I find that 3 cc is very easy to get and lets you more aggressively use wastelands in the early game.
Faerie Mechanist is one of the weakest cards but is still good.
I play 3 CoT and 1 Crystal Vein right now. I'm not sure if that is a good idea but I HATE a 2 CoT opening hand. I'm open to suggestions.

I don't know if my sb is optimal but I am really sure about damping matrix and crypt. Damping matrix makes a mess of a lot of decks and stops vial and QP especially.

I'm not sure about the Darksteel Citadel's but I figured they pump MoE, produce 2 with Metalworker and can't be destroyed.

Hanni I will try the list in the OP soon.

If we play a few more citadel's and want to go more colors we can play glimmervoid's.

Covetous Dragon, Firespout (thanks Roman) and blood moon pop to find for a cool red splash. Covetous beats aggro by being flying and bigger.

This is really exciting and the deck however it turns out is definitely a contender! IMO this deck is 1.5. I'm not sure if will ever put up zoo numbers, but we have an artifact set coming up...

I will review any primer that is written if my help is requested.

On a different idea (sorry Hanni) I am thinking about Transmute Artifact, with Welder, Grim Monolith, Cathodian, Su-Chi, Robots, TfK, + painter, grind.

[Hanni]

I'm open for Metalworker.
I would cut 2 Grim Monolith for it, but what else?
I'm fine with the number of mana-sources and I don't want to play more.
Monolith is even good, because with Tomb it boosts me to 3 in the same turn and the turn after to 5 (or if I get wasted to4).
This fact seems really relevant to me.


Metalworker is going to be a better mana boost than Grim Monolith.

In your list, I would cut 2 Grim Monolith, and probably 2 Esperzoa since those can be bad in multiples.


1. Play Metalworker, I can't believe I've played so many games without him. He is an automatic concession machine.

Proofs in the pudding :p


Faerie Mechanist is one of the weakest cards but is still good.

Some games I feel this way, when I have a strong hand already, and/or when the Mechanist isn't drawing me anything relevant.

If you have a strong hand already, and Mechanist feels weak, it means you probably had a blowout anyway.

If you feel like Mechanist isn't drawing anything relevant, remember that each Mechanist filters through 3 topdecks. So if the cards you're drawing from Mechanist are irrelevant, you would have been drawing dead for 3 turns without him.

I do not think Mechanist is one of the weaker cards, and I think his inclusion is one of the many reasons this deck has been so good for me in testing.

Actually, Crucible of Worlds has been the weakest card in my testing. Some games, the Wastelock is an insta-gg. Othertimes, it's just useless. Recurring Blinkmoth's has been relevant, but only in a few games. The most common use of Crucible so far has been to stabilize my midgame manabase, bringing back lands discarded to Mox, City of Traitors, etc.


Hanni I will try the list in the OP soon.


You won't be disappointed.


If we play a few more citadel's and want to go more colors we can play glimmervoid's.

Covetous Dragon, Firespout (thanks Roman) and blood moon pop to find for a cool red splash. Covetous beats aggro by being flying and bigger.

If you were going to splash red in addition to blue, you'd want to run Great Furnace instead of Darksteel Citadel. I don't think the red splah offers anything good for us, though.

[Volrath]

Would Sword of Vengeance be og any significance?

Sword of Vengeance (3)

Equipment
Equipped creature gets +2/0 first strike vigilance trample and haste.

Costs 3 to equip

[Hanni]

I was thinking about it for a while, but I'm unsure. The beauty of Sword of Fire and Ice was that it could draw cards and ping enemy creatures. It looks like it deserves testing though.

Attached to a 5/3 Lodestone Golem, you now have a way to push damage through, as well as a powerful defender. It definitely seems like it would be great against aggro decks, but its only going to be good when equipped to bigger guys. Basically, it doesn't do much attached to Faerie Mechanist. Also, costing 3 to equip makes it even more expensive than SoFI, so I'm not sure how big a difference that would make.

[Volrath]

It makes topdecked faeries great, since it gives haste and such.

But then again, it makes every topdecked critter good but after that SoFi gets better.

It does have its uses, and i felt dirty when i send my equiped Razormane into a horde of kitties and apes.

[Hanni]

It makes topdecked faeries great, since it gives haste and such.

But then again, it makes every topdecked critter good but after that SoFi gets better.

It does have its uses, and i felt dirty when i send my equiped Razormane into a horde of kitties and apes.

The deck won't always be able to cast Faerie Mechanist and equip it the same turn since that requires a mana investment of 7, but the haste part is a strong selling point. With a Sword on the board and enough mana available, ripping something like a Master of Etherium and slapping the Vengeance on him can quickly shift the game around.

Most topdecked critters will become good if their is an equipment on the table, regardless of whether it's SoFI or SoV. The difference is figuring out which one is stronger in what situations, etc.

If I have a Razormane Masticore against a horde of kitties and apes, I'm happy even without equipment. Obviously SoV is stronger attached to a Razormane than a SoFI, but the question becomes whether or not the difference is necessary. Razormane against Zoo is absurdly strong in the first place, and unless they draw double Bolt or Path and I don't have a Chalice @ 1, it only takes a few turns for him to shut them completely down regardless of equipment.

It's quite possible that some sort of 2/2 split on equipments could become good, I don't know. Again, it needs tested before serious conclusions can be made.

[Philipp2293]

In which MUs do you side in the Smokestacks?

[Volrath]

In my testing slapping down a faerie and equip a SoV aint that improbably if you have a Metalworker out.

There will be a new Sword in the Swords cycle, Sword of Body and Mind.
I'm hoping that it gives some CA, since it's the best part of the Sofi, we'll see in FTV:relics.

[Hanni]

In which MUs do you side in the Smokestacks?

Control decks like Landstill.


There will be a new Sword in the Swords cycle, Sword of Body and Mind.
I'm hoping that it gives some CA, since it's the best part of the Sofi, we'll see in FTV:relics.

Yes, I think it would be a good idea to wait until Scars of Mirrodin shows us what new equipment options are available and then go from there. I still think 4 maindeck spots dedicated to equipment is correct, regardless of combination.

In fact, I think it would be a good idea to wait until Scards of Mirrodin shows us what new artifact options are available, period.

[Volrath]

Control decks like Landstill.
.

I think we don't play enough ''lock'' cards like crucible etc to rreally abbuse Stack




Yes, I think it would be a good idea to wait until Scars of Mirrodin shows us what new equipment options are available and then go from there. I still think 4 maindeck spots dedicated to equipment is correct, regardless of combination.

In fact, I think it would be a good idea to wait until Scards of Mirrodin shows us what new artifact options are available, period.

I really love the CA that SoFi gains, i would play no less than 3 the other remaining slot should, in my opinion either give you CA or outright win te game.

Also, there supposed to by a cycle in M11 that deals with artifacts. The Lich and Hoarding Dragon are amongst them, so possibly M11 can bring us a nice new tool.

[Hanni]

I think we don't play enough ''lock'' cards like crucible etc to rreally abbuse Stack

I run 2 Crucible MD 2 Crucible SB. Again, I only run the Smokestacks in my SB for control matchups. The 2 Crucible 4 Smokestack in my sideboard could become something like 2 Esperzoa and 4 Tangle Wire instead, but I've been content with Smokestack so far.

[fallenphoenix]

What's your opinion on Tezzeret?

He offers a quick clock, some tutoring and works well with Monolith and perhaps Metalworker.


Also, I'm not sure Esperzoa combos that well with Tangle Wire. The "Last Known Information"-rule should negate any useful kind of interaction, except from bouncing TW to always keep 4 counters on it. You still have to tap 3 though, so I have my doubts if this is really helpful.

[Hanni]

What's your opinion on Tezzeret?

Tezzeret itself is very solid, essentially tutoring for any artifact in my deck (sans Razormane) and putting it directly into play is lovely. Attacking with fatties and then untapping them to give them a psuedo-vigiliance is pretty nice too. Getting the occasional combo win by making all of the Seat of Synod's, Mox Diamonds, etc into 5/5's is strong. He's easily protected by all the creatures I have to block with. Unfortunately, hitting UU reliably in a deck with 12 blue sources is not possible.


Also, I'm not sure Esperzoa combos that well with Tangle Wire. The "Last Known Information"-rule should negate any useful kind of interaction, except from bouncing TW to always keep 4 counters on it. You still have to tap 3 though, so I have my doubts if this is really helpful.

I have no idea, I'm not a rules guru.

[majikal]

Also, I'm not sure Esperzoa combos that well with Tangle Wire. The "Last Known Information"-rule should negate any useful kind of interaction, except from bouncing TW to always keep 4 counters on it. You still have to tap 3 though, so I have my doubts if this is really helpful.
Does Tangle Wire not check for counters upon resolution?

[Volrath]

What's your opinion on Tezzeret?

He offers a quick clock, some tutoring and works well with Monolith and perhaps Metalworker.


Also, I'm not sure Esperzoa combos that well with Tangle Wire. The "Last Known Information"-rule should negate any useful kind of interaction, except from bouncing TW to always keep 4 counters on it. You still have to tap 3 though, so I have my doubts if this is really helpful.

I play Tezz in my Blue Staxx lists and he is a beast there, finding that ensaring bridge to stop aggro, Finding that Peedle against Elspeth/pridemage or finding a missing combo piece in Staff/metalworker.

Hitting UU with this deck is really hard, and he is not an artifact himself for mechanists and metal workers.

Now about Esperzoa and Tanglewire.

Player 1 controls Esperzoa and Tangle Wire (which he also owns) with 4 fade counters on it.

Player 1's turn starts.

Untap Step.

Player 1 untaps all permanents he controls (unless they're not allowed to untap)

Upkeep Step.

Esperzoa's triggered ability sees the beginning of the upkeep step, and triggers.
Tangle Wire's triggered ability (fading) sees the beginning of the upkeep step, and triggers.
Tangle Wire's other triggered ability sees the beginning of the upkeep step, and triggers.

Player 1 chooses to first put Tangle Wire's ability on the stack, then the fading ability, and then Esperzoa's ability.

Player 1 : Pass.
Player 2 : Pass.

Esperzoa's triggered ability resolves. Player 1 chooses to return Tangle Wire to his hand.

Player 1 : Pass.
Player 2 : Pass.

Tangle Wire's triggered ability (fading) resolves. It tries to remove a fading counter from Tangle Wire, but it can't, because it is no longer in play. It then tries to sacrifice Tangle Wire, but it can't, because it is no longer in play.

Player 1 : Pass.
Player 2 : Pass.

Tangle Wire's other triggered ability resolves. The effect requires information about Tangle Wire, but it is no longer in play, so it looks back in time to before it left play and sees it had 4 counters on it. Player 1 has to tap 4 artifact, creature or land permanents.

Note that if he had decided to put the Tangle Wire's fading triggered ability on top, instead of Esperzoa's, he would only need to tap 3 artifact, creature or land permanents.

Either way though, Tangle Wire's triggered ability is not circumvented by Esperzoa's triggered ability.

[jazzykat]

Consider this stack

Top of stack: Remove Fading Counter (4-->3)
Middle of stack: Tap Permanents (including tanglewire)
Bottom of stack: Bounce Wire with esperzoa

The trick is that with wire you tap 3 (including the wire) to their 4 and with 3sphere, and/or LG out you may lock them out of the game for a little while. There is also the issue that you usually can swing with Esperzoa doing 4 damage per turn.

[Volrath]

To qoute myself.



Note that if he had decided to put the Tangle Wire's fading triggered ability on top, instead of Esperzoa's, he would only need to tap 3 artifact, creature or land permanents.


The problem is, it's not a hard lock and can be killed by a single bolt/stp/path if no chalice is in play.

Zoa with Wire is not broken, yust a nice little trick.

[Nekrataal]

Last I posted in the MUD Stompy thread where Bug Blue was considered first. However good to see somebody picking it up again and dedicating a separate thread to it. I tested a list when Loadstone Golem was spoiled and wasn't too satisifed. The deck folded basically to everything playing Aether Vial, to U Control, to Merfolk in particular and to fast Aggro/Tempo decks if lock pieces didn't show up early enough as T2 and to decks playing a lot of creature removal. I also switched the 4 SoR slots later on to 4 Su-Chi without much improvement. I do not see the new list in Post #1 to be much different except a slightly more stable manabase and a few more/different creatures (which I think is relevant when playing equipments). The proposal of Tangle Wire + Esperzoa is neat but nothing more.

So was my bad experience just a unlucky coincidence? I still believe that this deck has too many negative matchups. What did your tests reveal so far? Here is the list I tested some month ago:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [7E] Island (2)
1 [TS] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 [A] Loadstone Golem
3 [10E] Razormane Masticore
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium

// Spells
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [ALA] Tezzeret the Seeker
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ARE] Karn, Silver Golem
SB: 2 [NE] EE
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid

[Volrath]

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [7E] Island (2)
1 [TS] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 [A] Loadstone Golem
3 [10E] Razormane Masticore
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium

// Spells
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [ALA] Tezzeret the Seeker
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ARE] Karn, Silver Golem
SB: 2 [NE] EE
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid

No metalworkers is a nono, SofI helpt allot against aggro and gives you a constant source of CA.
Try the list in the opening post, it does wonders for me.

Also, Cristal Ball

3

artifact

1,tap: scry 2.

This is something staxx wanted for ages, it is even awesome in multiple's when you are digging for a specific card.
Don't know if it fits in this aggro list, since sofi does it's job in here and doubles as a wincon, but i wanted to give it some credit.

[jazzykat]

I'm exhausted so no long discussion but have you guys tried culling scales?

[heroicraptor]

I'm exhausted so no long discussion but have you guys tried culling scales?

You make Chalice of the Void and Mox Diamond cry.

[jazzykat]

You make Chalice of the Void and Mox Diamond cry.

Argh, yes you are right.

[Volrath]

sword of body and mind. 3cc equip 2 pro g/u. +2/+2 mills for 10 and 2/2 wolf.

Usable?, i think it has potential since it can turn a lowly Nexus into a 5 turn clock.
Also, you can yust re-equip this badboy on the wolf token and chump tarmos/kotr etc..

[Michael Keller]

I'd sooner run Su-Chi.

Say that five times fast.

[nedleeds]

If the goal is turn one Metalworker then Grim Monolith is a more consistant path forward than even Mox Diamond. Mox Diamond is obviously an awesome color fixer and it also genius when you drop a crucible, but Grimmie is a better excellerator even without Key. Key being 1 really hurts as the two best plays are:

- Tomb -> Grim -> Worker

or

- Tomb / CoT -> Chalice 1

[Hanni]

sword of body and mind. 3cc equip 2 pro g/u. +2/+2 mills for 10 and 2/2 wolf.

Usable?, i think it has potential since it can turn a lowly Nexus into a 5 turn clock.
Also, you can yust re-equip this badboy on the wolf token and chump tarmos/kotr etc..

Not sure, needs tested. I'll probably cut the 2 Crucibles out of the maindeck for 2 of these, and see how that goes.


If the goal is turn one Metalworker then Grim Monolith is a more consistant path forward than even Mox Diamond. Mox Diamond is obviously an awesome color fixer and it also genius when you drop a crucible, but Grimmie is a better excellerator even without Key. Key being 1 really hurts as the two best plays are:

- Tomb -> Grim -> Worker

or

- Tomb / CoT -> Chalice 1

Mox Diamond produces blue mana, which is relevant. 4 Island, 4 Seat, and 4 Mox gives 12 blue sources, which is enough to support the deck.

Also, Mox untaps every turn. Monolith is a one time mana accelerant, unless your dumping in 4 mana to untap it.

I tested Grim Monolith for a while, I really wanted it to work. I ultimately concluded that it just doesn't belong in 5/3. It's really good in big mana ramp decks, but not in here.

[Michael Keller]

Not sure, needs tested.



Mox Diamond produces blue mana, which is relevant. 4 Island, 4 Seat, and 4 Mox gives 12 blue sources, which is enough to support the deck.

Also, Mox untaps every turn. Monolith is a one time mana accelerant, unless your dumping in 4 mana to untap it.

I tested Grim Monolith for a while, I really wanted it to work. I ultimately concluded that it just doesn't belong in 5/3. It's really good in big mana ramp decks, but not in here.

Ever thought of trying out Transmute Artifact? Tapping the Monolith for three colorless then sacrificing it could be a nifty idea. Of course, that all depends on whether the deck can support it if (and when) Monolith is removed.

[Hanni]

Ever thought of trying out Transmute Artifact? Tapping the Monolith for three colorless then sacrificing it could be a nifty idea. Of course, that all depends on whether the deck can support it if (and when) Monolith is removed.

12 blue sources isn't enough to consistently support UU, and this deck doesn't need Transmute Artifact. Transmute Artifact makes sense in a deck that revolves around a combo, like Worker/Staff, or Painter/Stone. In this deck, it's just not worth it.

[nedleeds]

I tested Grim Monolith for a while, I really wanted it to work. I ultimately concluded that it just doesn't belong in 5/3. It's really good in big mana ramp decks, but not in here.

So why play Metalworker then?

[median]

I'm not the best pilot or designer at this archetype but that said, I have a couple ideas;
would it be worthwhile to squeeze some fetch lands into the mana base? Just for crucible? The idea being you shouldn't miss a land drop once you play a crucible.
Also with the high artifact count, has ThoughtCast been considered? I just like lots of draw.
I'm also against Transmute artifact, as I feel you'll usually not be in the best position to take advantage of it when you would want to.

[Volrath]

So why play Metalworker then?

Worker carries a Sword.
Worker can empty your hand in one go, monolith yust gives 3, once.

[Hanni]

So why play Metalworker then?

I play Metalworker because Metalworker is my Goblin Lackey. If he sticks, and my opponent doesn't have an immediate answer for him, he's going to enable me to empty my entire hand. Grim Monolith doesn't enable me to empty my entire hand, it is a one-time use effect (unless your spending 4 mana to untap it, which is irrelevant), and cannot carry equipment.


I'm not the best pilot or designer at this archetype but that said, I have a couple ideas;
would it be worthwhile to squeeze some fetch lands into the mana base? Just for crucible? The idea being you shouldn't miss a land drop once you play a crucible.
Also with the high artifact count, has ThoughtCast been considered? I just like lots of draw.
I'm also against Transmute artifact, as I feel you'll usually not be in the best position to take advantage of it when you would want to.

Fetchlands could be a great idea with Crucible, but it's a matter of what to cut. However, I've been very unimpressed with Crucible lately, and I think I'd rather run more equipment.

I had considered Thoughtcast, Thirst for Knowledge, Mulldrifter, Fact or Fiction, and Gift's Ungiven. The problem with these cards, is that they are not artfiact cards. Faerie Mechanist, Metalworker, and Lodestone Golem like artifacts. The other problem, is that they are draw spells without a body attached. This means they will be a big tempo sink initially, and I have found that to be problematic. However, Thoughtcast being cast for something like 1U doesn't seem like much of a tempo sink, and they could easily be put into the flex spot for those who want to try it.

I'm cutting the 2 Crucible's out of the maindeck for 2 Sword of Light and Shadow. I'll edit the OP to reflect this.

[Hanni]

I thought of a cool name for this deck!

Since it's basically an Aggro MUD deck with a blue splash, I dub thee: Puddle of MUD.

[Moxie]

I thought of a cool name for this deck!

Since it's basically an Aggro MUD deck with a blue splash, I dub thee: Puddle of MUD.

Oh God, please, no.

[Hanni]

Oh God, please, no.

HAHAHA, awww come on man, why not? Blue = puddle, brown artifact = MUD, it's fucking classic.

On another note, I've been beating my head against a wall on MWS all day, and I've found out some interesting things.

A) It's amazing how many times I have to mulligan 0 and 1 land hands in a deck that runs 24 fucking lands.
B) Sword of Light and Shadow has won me alot of games against Control decks.
C) Sometimes the deck draws the nuts and completely dominates the game and the opponent can't do shit about it, sometimes the deck just draws like shit. I guess that's to be expected of a Stompy-style deck, though (and hey, at least its more consistent than Stax).
D) The deck just dominates Zoo. The only possible chance they have is getting a heavy Qasali draw early enough to be relevant, or race me when I get an inconsistent draw.
C) I seem to smash combo decks pretty often. Chalice/Trini/Thorn + a fast clock makes this a horrible matchup for combo players.
E) Aggro/Control decks of the tempo variety can be a pain in the ass sometimes, and the games I have lost have been because I just can't get anything to stick to the board, meanwhile I'm getting smacked by Goyfs and such.
F) Heavy board control decks are also difficult matchups (the ones with like half their deck as creature removal).
G) This deck completey smashes jank aggro like Elves, White Weenie, GW Maveric, etc. I've also spanked Goblins multiple times.

Aggro decks of all varieties are favorable to highly favorable for this deck. Most combo decks are also favorable to highly favorable, although Belcher on the play can still go nuts and combo off on you turn 1 ftw.

Control and Aggro/Control are the matchups that borderline on slightly favorable, to highly unfavorable.

For aggro/control, it's highly dependant on build, of course; like, Qasali Pridemage and Trygon Predator are houses against me, but I really don't care about Counterbalance. The aggro/control decks that utilize tempo (Daze/Pierce/Force/Wasteland/StP) seem to be the best ones against me, because they keep me from resolving any of my bombs, and kill me before I can do anything relevant. Even the versions that aren't heavy on tempo can still be difficult.

Against control decks, I think it's more a matter of how well my draws are vs how frequently they have exactly the right answer at the right time.

From these results, it can be concluded that this deck needs to worry less about sideboarding for aggro and combo matchups, and should instead find and focus on adequate answers to both aggro/control and control.

So far, Sword of Light and Shadow has been great for me against most control decks. I've also noticed that Blinkmoth Nexus has been pretty savage as well, and I'm thinking Mishra's Factory in the sideboard would be really good against Control too.

Unfortunately, I have no idea how to address the aggro/control matchups right now; I'm not sure what to sideboard against them to improve the matchup. Tangle Wire, maybe?

[median]

One more question, would master transmute be worth trying in here?

[jazzykat]

@Puddle of MUD: I vote NO.

Regarding the control decks, damping matrix is pretty cool vs. their explosives, shackles, etc. However, you have to side out your equipment.

Tanglewires, which I run in my MD build are how you beat serious control decks IF you have a decent draw. You lock them out for just long enough to get your last points in.

I think we should consider dust bowl, academy ruins, and the transmute land as potential cards for this deck. I think that to beat control decks we have to play to our CA strength which comes from Crucible, also recurring Aeolipile is some type of insult.

I think that Smokestack can obviously break them as well since all they usually have is lands and/or a jace.

Regarding the aggro control, the biggest problem is Goyf. Not only is he often bigger than our guys (not a terribly big deal) but he is big so much faster when they counter our artifact (creature) which is the big deal.

I think it may be time to run smokestacks again and just use our creatures as road blocks and cannon fodder until the stack locks them out and under a 3sphere.

The alternative of course is winter orb, at least vs. control. If they tap out to play deed and you have orb out they are usually dead before they get the 3/4 mana back to clear your board.

[Darkenslight]

The deck should clearly be called MUDdy Waters. :D

Aside from that, I suspect that Stack is too weak against the current meta - in a format where the fundamental turn is essentially Turn 1 or Turn 2, you need to be able to get Stack out consistently turn 2. And that just ain't happening. Stack is a prison piece, and you're playing aggro.

[eq.firemind]

A little necro.
With Scars out the whole bunch of artifact-based decks recieve some new nice tools.
For this deck Mox Opal and new fatties like Wurmcoil Engine and Steel Hellkite could possibly be usefull.
And I realy like the interaction between Tangle Wire and Esperzoa, allowing you to lock opponent out of expensive sweepers. In that light, Cards like Metalworker and Master Transmuter look very nice 'cause you just need to have 1-2 permanents untapped to keep things going.
Here's my list that wants to use more synergies than raw power:

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Island
4 mix of Mox Opal and Grim Monolith/Metalworker

4 Esperzoa
4 Master of Etherium
2 Trinket Mage
4 Master Transmuter
4 Faerie Mechanist
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Razormane Masticore

4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will/Trinisphere
2 of the following: Sigil of Distinction,Chimeric Mass, Sensei's Divining Top


I'm not sure about correct cards/numbers in some slots, but overall direction of the deck is clear: play some mana, then either beat them to death, lock them with Wire+Zoa/Transmuter, or dump your whole hand into play (If I'll choose to play Metalworker).
:0:-mana artifacts serve multiple purpouses here: they enable Mox Opal in early game, support Zoa/Transmuter and you can dump lots of mana into them later.
Both Mox Opal and Grim Monolith have synergy with Zoa and Transmuter,so Metalworker seems to be worse for this list.
The card I'm most exited with is Steel Hellkite. Universal sweeper attached to evasive body is huge, hardcasting it is affordable for this deck and if you don't need sweeper, you can just dump all mana into damage.
Also, I'm not realy sure if the deck needs Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere and FoW maindeck. It needs some protection/disruption for sure, but maybe 4 slots will be enough.

For equipment-heavy builds of this deck I suggest to try Etched Champion as ultimate Grip-proof carrier and infinite blocker.
For list without equipments (like mine) Kira, Great Glass-Spinner seems to be great option against decks with lots spot removal. I even think of running some in maindeck (for example, in place of Chalices) if archieving 2 blue mana will not cause problems.

[perm]

3-sphere and lodestone golem (and thorn of amnethyst if SB in) is sort of a nonbo, I prefer stacking sphere of resistance with lodestone, especially when you have plentiful colorless mana with you monoliths and 2-mana lands.

[Spooks]

Interesting read indeed. Although many opinions are being discussed here, i believe the better card is the one that fits your playstyle best. And therefore there is no one best card (although some are clearly stronger than others).

This deck has had my interest for a while now, and after much playtesting i would like to share my build. I both agree and disagree with many of the points raised in this thread, and i will therefore give my reasoning for card selections. But please remember it' how i personally prefer to play that led me to choose what i did. Enough talk:

20 Land
Ancient Tomb *4
Crystal Vein *4
Seat of the Synod *4
City of Traitors *4
Academy Ruins *2
Faerie Conclave *2

20 Dudes
Riddlesmith *4
Etched Champion *4
Master of Etherium *4
Esperzoa *4
Lodestone Golem *4

20 Goodstuff
Mox Opal *4
Lotus Petal *4
Chalice of the Void *4
Cranial Plating *4
Trinisphere *4

I'll admit it right out from the start, sometimes you draw a bunch of blue cards and no blue producers, which can be annoying but an opening hand including Riddlesmith and a Lotus Petal turns into a nuts draw engine. It may look weak but after alot of playtesting you get a feel for a hand that can be kept. This deck requires more skill to play than it would first seem.

I might as well get right into why there's no Metalworker. I believe the best turn 1 play is Chalice @1 or Trinisphere. After much playtesting, the Metalworker was always on the back bench. Waiting for his turn to be cast and i found when i did get round to casting him he was redundant. And that's also the reason for the Lotus petals over Mox Diamond. It's the turn 1, 2 and 3 that makes this deck viable, and as such i didn't want to overdo the mana. It plays perfectly well with 20 lands and adding more to support Mox Diamond dilutes the opening hand and subsequent draws. I found when i was ready for the Metalworker to be cast what i really needed was more beef to finish my opponent off. Metalworker was swopped for Cranial Plating.

Also i played Wurmcoil Engine but found that they shared the same fate as the Metalworker. By the time i wanted to cast them i already had board position and it was more a case of "win more" than anything useful. I looked at guys that were of a cheaper casting cost and settled on Etched Champion. He can plough through with a Cranial Plating and end the game rather quick.

Which brings me to the next inclusions: Esperzoa and Faerie Conclave. Both fly, which i'm sure you'll agree is worth it's weight in gold in Legacy. Cranial Plating on either again is a game ender, so if the cap fits... Esperzoa filled the Thirst for Knowledge slot, but i found with the Riddlesmith you simply draw everytime and fix your hand to your current situation. Esperzoa has really good synergy with Riddlesmith, it's almost like a TFK every turn...

Hence the inclusion of Academy Ruins.

I'm very happy with how this deck has turned out, i've won many a game without my opponent casting much, if anything. It does however require alot of thought as to your opening hand and to what you do with it. Wether you're on the play or the draw makes a big difference too. Not a deck i would suggest to beginners.

As to the SideBoard, i'm still making changes to get it right for my Meta. All i can be sure of is Thorn of Amethyst and probably the Wurmcoil Engines. The control players will be happy to know this shell easily supports Force of Will, again depending on what your meta plays.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone with a similar deck that has had alot of playtesting, as to thier decisions and why. I'm going to a Legacy Tourny in a few weeks, if i remain sober i'll do my best to take some notes inbetween matches :)

[Oiolosse]

I don't like to see so many artifacts <3 cmc with 4 Trinispheres. Have you given any thought to Transmute Artifact? You could lessen the amount and toolbox just a bit. That way your petals and opals aren't dead draws later in the game (Althought, Riddlesmith is probably excellent here for this reason).

Love the Chalices, Chalice at one is terrific in any meta. Chalice at two is great as well so long as not having Riddlesmith is okay.

Good list, I like it.

[Spooks]

Thanks Oiolosse!

I think hitting UU would be tricky in this list, but is an interesting suggestion! Don't forget about the Esperzoa though, if your hand fills up with 0's you can always bounce the Trinisphere and lay them all down before casting it again. Although i've never really found myself it that situation very often. If my hand is full of dead stuff, i usually pay the 3 to play them just for the pump effects and the draw. The 0's get you some great T1 plays so i don't think i'd be looking at dropping any of them. Turn 1 Lodestone on the play followed by CotV @ 1 is pretty much game.

After some games last night, i'm almost temped to swop the Etched Champions back to Wurmcoil Engines. The lifelink really helps when you're tapping multiple Ancient Tombs!

Any suggestions for the SB? I'm not having much luck with it atm.

[nedleeds]

Etched Champion really shines with Swords and/or Jitte. It's an unkillable, unblockable 4/4 drawing shocking machine with a SoFI. If you aren't running 4+ equips then Etched might not be that sexy. He's also a wall ... sometimes he can hold off a Goyf while you fly over.

[Esper3k]

I'd just like to say that I love this deck!

I've been trying to make something similar work with Grand Architects, but that UU in the cost makes them so hard to power out early. The really nice thing about them so far is that they keep your Lodestone Golems alive from Chain Lightning/Lightning Bolt/Lightning Helix!

Anyone else been giving them a run at all?

[Koby]

Master of Etherium keeps Lodestone Golem alive against those removal spells as well. It only ends up costing 2U, which is much easier than 2UU from Grand Architect.

In light of the new robots, I'm testing out Metalworker again to power out Wurmcoil Titan Engine.

[Esper3k]

Architect is only 1UU, but yes I ultimately came to the conclusion that while it's neat that it can generate the 2 mana on the turn it comes into play, the UU in the casting cost is just too difficult to hit on T1, at least with a Stompyish manabase.

[eq.firemind]

If you need lord effect, play Master of Etherium. If you need mana, play Metalworker. Seriously, there are just better cards avaliable in Legacy cardpool.

I'm very satisfied with Faerie Mechanist. The card does everything you want: costs only 1 blue mana, is artifact, has evasion, proivides both card advantage and selection and clears our topdecks (the last one is extremely important 'cause drawing sixth mana source is usually an awful thing). If I have active Metalworker, Mechanist is usually the first thing I'll cast to setup and squeeze more profit from every mana.

I tested Mox Opal and came to the conclusion that it just doesn't suit this deck 'cause it doesn't help powering out explosive turn 1. Affinity fill find greater use for it. I'll stick with Mox Diamons and related manabase now.

The card to consider is Rusted Relic. Unlike Mox Opal, this one will enter the battlefield after some cheaper artifacts, so it should be basically 5/5 for :4:, wich is nice.

Steel Hellkite is the beast in Metalworker builds. It is more than decent without Worker, but with 10+ mana per turn avaliable, Hellkite kills with 2-3 swings, demolishing opponent's board at the same time.

[Oiolosse]

The card to consider is Rusted Relic. Unlike Mox Opal, this one will enter the battlefield after some cheaper artifacts, so it should be basically 5/5 for :4:, wich is nice.

Huh? There are tons of better options at four mana. If you are pushing out that much mana then the original Masticore could easily take that spot.

[eq.firemind]

Not good example.
Masticore is not remotely good if you don't have tons of mana and you can't drop it on turn 3 'cause it will just eat your hand without doing much.
Razormane is playable 'cause it shoots small creatures for :0: mana.

I belive there are better beaters at :4:, but can't find them right now.
Mu current list for refference:
4 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Mox Diamond

4 Metalworker
4 Master of Etherium
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Faerie Mechanist
2 Rusted Relic
2 Steel Hellkite

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Sword of Fire and Ice

[Esper3k]

How about Molten-Tail Masticore at 4 mana? Sure it doesn't shoot for free, but being able to dome an opponent for 4 is pretty nuts.

I'd only recommend it in the Metalworker builds though.

[Oiolosse]

Have you ever had an active Metalworker and Masticore? It's super super good. And no, not just casually.

Moltentail requires you to remove a creature in your graveyard from the game. These lists don't run nearly the amount of creatures to support that ability.

[eq.firemind]

I had lots of time when I had Masticore without Metalworker and it sucked. Cards that are good only with other cards add a bit more of inconsistency, wich is the main problem of Stompy. As I said before, Steel Hellkite is my manadump for Metalworker, but is also pretty good without it.
Molte-tail is not an option either 'cause it suffers the same problem: need both mana and cards to be usefull.

[Oiolosse]

I do think Masticore is hard to fit into decks, hence why he isn't played as often as it seems he should be. It bothers me that he eats your hand which only makes Metalworker worse. Or that after dropping your hand you have nothing to feed him. He does indeed put constrictions on deckbuilding. With that said, he is fantastic control. You don't need that much mana with him. With six available he owns. You kill toughness <=6 and still have 2 for regen. Being able to do more than that is just gravy. He shoots utility creatures which almost always have 1 or 2 toughness.

Bob
mana dorks
hate bears
gobs
Mother of Runes
Fauna Shaman
etc.


The new Masticore is pretty cool though. Retaining regenerate and the same cmc is awesome. Sure his ping ability is 4 and exile a creature but hell, you are discarding cards every turn anyway right? I am sure there is a creature centric control deck that could totally utilize him. He even hits players, very very nice touch.

[Esper3k]

So I've finally been able to play in our weekly tournaments again (stupid real life getting in the way) and took this for a spin this weekend.

Here's the decklist I played:

// Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Island
4 Crystal Vein
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
4 Etched Champion
4 Metalworker
2 Trinket Mage
4 Master of Etherium
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Steel Hellkite

// Spells
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Mox Diamond
1 Sigil of Distinction
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

// Sideboard
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Smokestack
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Hibernation

We had 16 players, 4 rounds of Swiss, cut to Top 4.

I went 3-1 in the Swiss. Beat GRB Aggro Loam, Aeon's Bridge, UGbw CounterTop. Lost to Enchantress in a close 3 round match.

Trinisphere was pretty amazing against Aeon's Bridge. Even though we have almost no answer to Show and Tell, if they don't have the nut Show and Tell + Emrakul hand, you can wreck them pretty badly. Trinisphere was great because it makes it incredibly difficult for them to use Mosswort Bridge (having to pay 3 for Dreadnought, then effectively another 2 for Bridge activation, then another 3 to cast it = impossible).

I lost in the first round of the Top 4 to Bant Aggro. Game 1, I was on the play and had the god start with T1 Trinisphere, which resolved, into T2 Metalworker. I dropped a T3, I dropped a Master of Etherium... then drew lands and died :(

Enchantress was a pretty rough matchup if you don't go first and drop a Chalice @ 1 or Trinisphere. Both games he won was through Confinement Lock, which I had pretty much no answer to.

Here are my thoughts on some of the card choices:

Etched Champion was great in almost every game. He was a great blocker and multiple times, it would carry a Sigil for 8+ for lethal.

Trinket Mage was very good - fetching up the 1-of Sigil was usually lethal the next turn (there's nothing like someone passing by then doing a double take when they see how many counters are on the Sigil). Against Aeon's Bridge, it fetched up Chalice, which was helpful and against Aggro Loam, getting your graveyard hate is very useful as well.

Steel Hellkite was underwhelming. I really like the idea of it, but it never really did much in any of my games. Usually, I'd cast it and it'd just bite it or I'd already have won the game without it. Much of the time, it sat in my hand to generate more mana for Metalworker while I cast other cheaper things.

Smokestack was great against the CounterTop deck. We're running 60 permanents. Setting it at 1 and letting them cook is more than enough.

Hibernation was something I wanted to test against the aggro-control decks. I even brought it in against Enchantress to buy time and reset their board. It also seems pretty good against the Vengevine decks. I need to test it some more (never saw it against Bant Aggro).

[lunabass]

hi i've been following this thread for a while now (some for the deep blue and quicksilver threads) and made a list that works supprisingly well even though i use cards that nobody took intrest in

i tested this list for a while now it seems to do pretty well, but since i'm more a casual player, i never really took it to a tournament or sumth, if anyone does or if anyone could test it more extensively and post the results i'd be a happy camper :p

lands:

seat of the synod x 4
island x 4
mishra's factory 4x
city of traitors x 4 (i play 4 crystal veins since i'm pretty much running this on a budget)
ancient tomb 4x

creatures:

steel overseer 4x
memnite 4x
ornithopter 4x
esperzoa 4x
lodestone myr 4x (i'll explain him later he has proven himself to be quite a handfull for the opp)
master of etherium 4x

other:

lotus petal 4x (again i play this on a budget, this might aswell be a chrome mox, mox opal or lions eye diamond or sumth)
Force of will 4x (i play disrupting shoal)
impulse 4x (i mainly play this cuz i was looking for a good 2cc card to pitch in for disrupting shoal if needed or for some ca)
chalice of the void 4x


lodestone myr: i already feel people are wondering about lodestone myr... well the card simply works great in this build, you play lots of 0cc arties in this deck (12 in total 16 of you count the artifact lands with it) it can be casted consitently on t2, and even IF he enters the field later, its really no downside, after the initial turns, it's no secret thopters and memnites become useless cards, so you tap them! making the myr a 4/4 trample at least! also he works great with an esperzoa on the field and becomes an even greater threat, during your upkeep esperzoa returns an artifact to your hand, you'll probably return a 0cc artifact or seat of the synod to your hand for that, but when the effect triggers you can react with lodestone golem, tapping the 0cc before it returns to your hand for +1 +1 on the lodestone, the 0cc then returns to your hand, you play the 0cc again during your main 1 and tap it again, for an additional +1 +1 making lodestone a 4/4 trampler already, and you havent even tapped anything else, you can also tap chalice for him, tapping chalice doesnt hurt you or anything and it gives your myr +1+1

i often win with the myr, as a 7/7 trampler wich simply cant be bad at all thats why o prefer him to lodestone golem, and why i encourage everyone here to test him in a 0cc heavy build

steel overseer: can be dropped on t1, pumps thopters and memnites making them pretty effective beaters on t3 and good blockers on t2, he also pumps esperzoa, a 5/4 flyer is simply funny on t3, he also pumps the myr, and it pumps itself as well, again, steel overseer's biggest strenght is that he pumps those useless 0cc artifact creatures, i wouldnt run him in a build that doesn't run lots of 0cc artifacts at all

master of etherium:self explanatory, in a deck with this much 0cc arties and easy to play arties and artie lands, he's a big mean fighting machine, you could drop him on t1 but t2 is very much preffered since the artifact count should be higher plus chalice could be on the field already protecting you from spotremoval like STOP or path, plus he pumps every creature you play


cards i was condidering

riddlesmith a SOM card, filters the hand later on, can be pitched for FOW (or in my case disrupting shoal)
lodestone golem i've already explained why i didn't play this one in the deck, sure he's big, he disrupts the opp a lil but, after a few turns he just isn't that spectacular anymore and is way to easily blocked and killed in the process, still, when he works he works
etherium sculptor he COULD accelerate the deck, but then again... nah we have better stuff to do so, he pitches in to fow though..

thats it, what do you guys think?

[GGoober]

So I've finally been able to play in our weekly tournaments again (stupid real life getting in the way) and took this for a spin this weekend.

Here's the decklist I played:

// Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Island
4 Crystal Vein
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
4 Etched Champion
4 Metalworker
2 Trinket Mage
4 Master of Etherium
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Steel Hellkite

// Spells
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Mox Diamond
1 Sigil of Distinction
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

// Sideboard
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Smokestack
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Hibernation

We had 16 players, 4 rounds of Swiss, cut to Top 4.

I went 3-1 in the Swiss. Beat GRB Aggro Loam, Aeon's Bridge, UGbw CounterTop. Lost to Enchantress in a close 3 round match.

Trinisphere was pretty amazing against Aeon's Bridge. Even though we have almost no answer to Show and Tell, if they don't have the nut Show and Tell + Emrakul hand, you can wreck them pretty badly. Trinisphere was great because it makes it incredibly difficult for them to use Mosswort Bridge (having to pay 3 for Dreadnought, then effectively another 2 for Bridge activation, then another 3 to cast it = impossible).

I lost in the first round of the Top 4 to Bant Aggro. Game 1, I was on the play and had the god start with T1 Trinisphere, which resolved, into T2 Metalworker. I dropped a T3, I dropped a Master of Etherium... then drew lands and died :(

Enchantress was a pretty rough matchup if you don't go first and drop a Chalice @ 1 or Trinisphere. Both games he won was through Confinement Lock, which I had pretty much no answer to.

Here are my thoughts on some of the card choices:

Etched Champion was great in almost every game. He was a great blocker and multiple times, it would carry a Sigil for 8+ for lethal.

Trinket Mage was very good - fetching up the 1-of Sigil was usually lethal the next turn (there's nothing like someone passing by then doing a double take when they see how many counters are on the Sigil). Against Aeon's Bridge, it fetched up Chalice, which was helpful and against Aggro Loam, getting your graveyard hate is very useful as well.

Steel Hellkite was underwhelming. I really like the idea of it, but it never really did much in any of my games. Usually, I'd cast it and it'd just bite it or I'd already have won the game without it. Much of the time, it sat in my hand to generate more mana for Metalworker while I cast other cheaper things.

Smokestack was great against the CounterTop deck. We're running 60 permanents. Setting it at 1 and letting them cook is more than enough.

Hibernation was something I wanted to test against the aggro-control decks. I even brought it in against Enchantress to buy time and reset their board. It also seems pretty good against the Vengevine decks. I need to test it some more (never saw it against Bant Aggro).

How were the golems? Too slow/good lock? I noticed you have no 2cmc spells, is this entirely to avoid Chalice@1 AND 2? Would Winter Orb Sphere of Resistance be handy in the list at all? Was life ever an issue with tombs? With your build, I think you can go greedy with another 2-3 Mox Opal, although it doesn't really help on turn 1 plays due to inability to get metalcraft online on turn 1 (and if you do it involves an artifact land and not a tomb-land).

[Esper3k]

How were the golems? Too slow/good lock? I noticed you have no 2cmc spells, is this entirely to avoid Chalice@1 AND 2? Would Winter Orb Sphere of Resistance be handy in the list at all? Was life ever an issue with tombs? With your build, I think you can go greedy with another 2-3 Mox Opal, although it doesn't really help on turn 1 plays due to inability to get metalcraft online on turn 1 (and if you do it involves an artifact land and not a tomb-land).

Golems were very up and down. Sometimes they were amazing (the game I won against Enchantress, I went T1 Chalice @ 1, T2 Thorn, T3 Golem and pretty much locked him out of the game) and it worked really nicely with Smokestack (against CounterTop, in G3, I had Stax out with him only able to ever make 3 mana, so he couldn't even cast a second Deed anymore because of Golem. Pretty much it seemed great at keeping you ahead if you get ahead, but bad if you're behind in the game.

I never really had much of an issue with the Ancient Tombs. I had a few games where I easily took 10-14 damage from them, but it didn't matter since my opponent was constantly backpedaling from the constant stream of bombs I was dropping on them.

I had thought about Mox Opal and tested it in MWS, but didn't really like it for the exact reason you stated: it generally doesn't give me mana on T1 in this deck. Like any Stompy/Stax deck, this deck is all about powering out busted plays, preferably on T1. I think to use Mox Opal, you need to put it in a version like Spooks' where you're playing lots of 0 drop accelerants.

Yeah, no 2 drops other than Thorns in the board pretty much so that I can drop Chalices @ 2 with impunity.

[Mr. Safety]

I think the deck has some serious balls with the Trinispheres/Chalices, but I can't help but think of these possibilities:

1) Etherium Sculptor - it makes your stuff cheap while Lodestone Golem makes it more expensive. Lodestone for 3, Master of Etherium for 2, what's not to like? I like it a hell of a lot better than Faerie Mechanist. It also makes a Trinket Mage package INSANE... free Pithing Needles and Aether Spellbombs. Also, with this guy on the table, it cheats your Trinisphere slightly, so your cheap stuff doesn't cost 3 but only 2 (I'm looking at you Swords...) That's not to mention that you can get Trinisphere turn 3 cheaper.

2) Ethersworn Canonist - it doesn't slow you down ONE BIT, but your opponent will be crying. This is where a minor splash of permission could really shine, like Force of Will or the aforementioned Disrupting Shoal.

[Esper3k]

I think the deck has some serious balls with the Trinispheres/Chalices, but I can't help but think of these possibilities:

1) Etherium Sculptor - it makes your stuff cheap while Lodestone Golem makes it more expensive. Lodestone for 3, Master of Etherium for 2, what's not to like? I like it a hell of a lot better than Faerie Mechanist. It also makes a Trinket Mage package INSANE... free Pithing Needles and Aether Spellbombs. Also, with this guy on the table, it cheats your Trinisphere slightly, so your cheap stuff doesn't cost 3 but only 2 (I'm looking at you Swords...) That's not to mention that you can get Trinisphere turn 3 cheaper.

2) Ethersworn Canonist - it doesn't slow you down ONE BIT, but your opponent will be crying. This is where a minor splash of permission could really shine, like Force of Will or the aforementioned Disrupting Shoal.

Under a Trinisphere, your spells will still cost 3 even with Etherium Sculptor out. Trinisphere is the last thing that checks the cost of a spell even after cost reducers are applied.

Ethersworn Canonist is white, so are you suggesting playing white over blue?

[GGoober]

Esper3k you mentioned that you lost some games due to land flood. I know Chrome Mox isn't very appealing in Stompy lists running heavy artifact (in our case, this deck is almost impossible to support Chromes), but was running 24 lands worth using the broken starts of Mox Diamonds without sacrificing on the inability of stompy decks to filter/draw library unlike decks like Aggro Loam/Landstill? (Land-heavy decks).

[Esper3k]

Yeah, Mox Diamond is really necessary - getting 3 mana on T1 is just so amazing. Even allowing a T1 Chalice off of a regular land is very strong.

Plus, 4 of the lands you're running are Wastelands, which are pretty much spells rather than lands.

The games I won against Aggro Loam were pretty convincingly won - Etched Champion is amazing against them.

[Mr. Safety]

Under a Trinisphere, your spells will still cost 3 even with Etherium Sculptor out. Trinisphere is the last thing that checks the cost of a spell even after cost reducers are applied.

Ethersworn Canonist is white, so are you suggesting playing white over blue?

Damn, shows you how much experience I have with Trinisphere. Sorry for the noob-tard comment.

I essentially thought that white would be a good splash color for several reasons, the foremost being Ethersworn Canonist.

Other good reasons:

Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile
Stoneforge Mystic
Engineered Explosives for the Trinx package, 2 counters capability
Meddling Mage (even playing it for 3, it's good)
Dispeller's Capsule (another target for Trinx, boosts Master of Etherium)
Sanctum Gargoyle (an evasive Eternal Witness...sounds good to me. Holds Swords nicely, too)

[Esper3k]

Damn, shows you how much experience I have with Trinisphere. Sorry for the noob-tard comment.

Nah, that's one that catches a lot of people - they don't always how powerful Trinisphere really is.




I essentially thought that white would be a good splash color for several reasons, the foremost being Ethersworn Canonist.

Other good reasons:

Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile
Stoneforge Mystic
Engineered Explosives for the Trinx package, 2 counters capability
Meddling Mage (even playing it for 3, it's good)
Dispeller's Capsule (another target for Trinx, boosts Master of Etherium)
Sanctum Gargoyle (an evasive Eternal Witness...sounds good to me. Holds Swords nicely, too)

There are definitely plenty of good white artifacts, but many of the issues is that most of the time, you're going to be setting Chalice @ 1, which blanks your own stuff like StP/PtE. Traditionally white versions of decks like this (Stompy / Stax decks) will run Oblivion Rings since it's 3 mana and can hit almost any permanent.

The issue I have with Canonist and MM is that we already have so much anti-combo hate, especially against Storm combo. Secondly, at least my experience with the deck (and Stompy decks in general) is getting double of a color of mana, much less 2 colors, can be difficult due to all the colorless mana producing lands you run.

[GGoober]

Interested in testing this list:

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Blinkmoth Nexus

4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Metalworker
4 Master of Etherium
4 Etched Champion

4 Cranial Plating
2 SoFI

SB:
Pithing Needles
Brittle Effigies
Spheres
Winter Orbs
Defense Grids


Not sure if 3 Trinisphere MD instead of 4 is the right call but I know from experience 4 is sometimes clunky. This list goes more for the throat with Ravager and Cranial Plating (which grows with every permanent you play except tomblands). The philosophy I had for this list was:

Ravager kills you (either himself or putting counters on Nexus/Champion). Champion will be the MVP stabilizing against aggro and then riding with a huge Plating to victory. I've personally tested Overseer in Stompy builds and he's ONLY good if you run him along Factories + Nexus. He becomes retarded when you play with 8 manlands because he used to be a terrible topdeck, but he will no longer be a bad topdeck with all those manlands to pump despite an 'empty' board position. Champion seems weak, but in this list, he is pumped by Ravager + Overseer + Equipment + Master so he will usually always be much bigger than a 2/2

The only true issue I see with this deck is: No card draw/manipulation. Although having cards functioning in more than 1-function (8 manlands) adds to the problem of topdecking in stompy decks. Master is my only blue card, so 4 Seat and the Opals should suffice. I thought about Mox Diamond as Esper3k suggested, and I have tested these in stompy running with wastelands, but more often I find myself getting screwed by screwing them with wastelands despite the synergy with Trinisphere. I don't know why this happens to me but maybe because my meta has too many Noble Hierarch + basics. This list still can open with turn 1 Trinispheres with petal (and that's what petal is really used for). Past turn 1, Metalcraft on Opal should not be tough for this deck, it's usually turn 1 Opal being useless that sucks. Also, this list has a number of 2cmc plays that are colorless (Overseer, Ravager, Plating, Chalice) so can be led off with Tomblands, and following up with a functional Opal on turn 2 is good enough to setup locks

I tested Lodestone in MUD to a disappointing result. If you cannot drop him on turns 1-2 on the play, he becomes very useless as important key spells have slipped through. It's sad we don't have the sick acceleration in Vintage to power him out, but that's just my opinion. He was the weakest card in my 8-ball MUD list.

[Mr. Safety]

Nah, that's one that catches a lot of people - they don't always how powerful Trinisphere really is.




There are definitely plenty of good white artifacts, but many of the issues is that most of the time, you're going to be setting Chalice @ 1, which blanks your own stuff like StP/PtE. Traditionally white versions of decks like this (Stompy / Stax decks) will run Oblivion Rings since it's 3 mana and can hit almost any permanent.

The issue I have with Canonist and MM is that we already have so much anti-combo hate, especially against Storm combo. Secondly, at least my experience with the deck (and Stompy decks in general) is getting double of a color of mana, much less 2 colors, can be difficult due to all the colorless mana producing lands you run.

Agreed...getting color #2 in there is shady. I still like the Etherium Sculptor idea, though...a 2/3 with Master of Etherium and boosting the Master. You get them for U once the first one hits, and I have to tell you, I'm not sorry to cast a Kird Ape/Loam Lion when I play my zoo list. In blue, that's basically cheating, lol.

I am following this thread so closely because I have a playset of Lodestone Golem that I'm itching to use...Etherium Sculptor lets you get a turn 3 Golem, and if get a Mox Diamond and 2 lands in your opening 7 you can get a turn 1 Sculptor>>>Turn 2 Lodestone Golem. That's quick enough to make a difference, especially if you can have Disrupting Shoal/Force of Will back-up. I'm curious...24 lands AND Mox Diamond...you could essentially get another 4 targets for your Disrupting Shoals in there with Sculptor, and drop to 20 lands. That means more business.

[GGoober]

This list is quite nutty (Goldfishing)

Lands: 23
4 Seat of the Synod
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Wasteland

Creatures: 19
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Master of Etherium
4 Etched Champion
3 Esperzoa

Non-creatures: 14
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible
4 Cranial Plating
4 Mox Diamond

The deck is built with one-philosophy: beatdown with Etched Champion/Flyers.

Main goal is to stabilize/lock initial board with Chalice/Crucible/Trinisphere or pump out the best artifact creatures in the format off stompy mana.

You'll either be on the aggression by beating down or defensive position with huge Masters and Champion until you slap a Plating on Esperzoa/Champion/Blinkmoth and win the game.

Ravager is not dead at all in the deck. Putting counters on Champion is what you usually want to do, or dump them on Esperzoa/Blinkmoth or sometimes just win with Ravager in play beating down.

Steel Overseer is insane in the deck. He's usually a bad topdeck in affinity/artifact lists but if you run 6-8 manlands to support him, a topdecked Overseer becomes a deadly threat over 1-2 turns.

Synergies:
- Crucible + Manlands/Wastelands + Mox Diamond
- Steel Overseer + Manlands/Champions
- Master + Manlands/Champion
- Plating + Champion/Blinkmoth Nexus/Esperzoa
- Ravager + Champion/Blinkmoth Nexus/Esperzoa

I tried Metalworker lists. He's busted when you draw the right cards and unanswered, but otherwise he becomes quite the terrible topdeck or becomes a Bob that never sticks in play. With this, I am forcing aggression with every spell. Even Overseer which is a bad card becomes a must counter when running 7 Manlands.

A big incentive to go with the manland plan was the ability to run Wasteland + Crucible + Mox Diamond (source of "Chrome Mox" otherwise not available). If you notice the curve of the deck, it is not hideously skewed to 3cmc like most colored stompy decks, hence it is less reliant on the Mox Diamond to go off. If you draw Tomb/City no Moxes, you'll have some plays turn 1, if you draw Mox + non-Tomb/City, you still have a play. I still need to test Mox Opal. It's great in lists that you want to constantly churn out 3cmc threats on and after turns 2.

Esperzoa could be Faerie Mechanist and will probably benefit best if it were Mechanist, but I'm opting for more beatdown in this list since the philosophy of the deck is to beatdown. 4 Plating can be cut to 2 Jitte + 3 Plating although I think Plating is the most busted equipment for this deck.

[Hanni]

I've been out for quite some time, just stopping by to say I'm going to edit the main page with the new Scars of Mirrodin change (Steel Hellkite).