[Deck] NO Elves [Archive]

Nessaja

06-27-2010, 01:18 PM

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/111/noelves.gif

The aim of this topic is to discuss a very specific variant, NO Elves. Because Elves is a popular tribe, many people try their own variant on the deck. What I'd like to present is a decklist and philosphy that has been tried and tested to work well in the Legacy environment.

Survival Elves is another archetype, as is Combo Elves. Each have their own strategy and usually prefer to win with a combo win. These decks should be discussed in other dedicated topics.

Decks that fall in this category are tribal Elves deck that utilize the mana production of Elves to create tempo differences and also play Natural Order with Progenitus.

The deck has been in development since September 2008.
The deck has been made with the intention to create a Tribal Elves deck fit for a regular Legacy meta.
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6585274&postcount=2654) 2/18 Naz (2nd place)
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6531031&postcount=2610) Quarter Finals, SGC LA copenhagen1221
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6480905&postcount=2510) 3-0-1 leeties (shared 1st)
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6362394&postcount=2348)4-0-2 Mihailo (GP Paris side event)
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6243667&postcount=2163)24th/151 Tru3z3rox (SGC San Jose)
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6208535&postcount=2134)1st/2nd out of 51 Lukas Maurer (O_o_O_o-O_o)
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6037938&postcount=1909)T16 out of 208 Naz (Dutch National Championships)
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6036921&postcount=1904)1st/? Sengir Paladin
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6008954&postcount=1829)3rd/16 Naz (undefeated in the swiss)
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5966599&postcount=1717)4th/43 Tru3z3rox
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5340749&postcount=1133)3rd/144 Lukas Maurer (GP Lyon side-event)
Result (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36005) 2nd/25 Lukas Maurer Report (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5439158&postcount=1195)
Result (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32074) 4th/35 Johannes Hauer
Result (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18060) 1st/10 Naz
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5478837&postcount=1218) 2nd place bodul
Result (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18343) 4th/35 Naz
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5619043&postcount=1391) 1st/18 Lukas Maurer
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5520176&postcount=1246) 4-2 AnotherDay
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5562390&postcount=1319) 4th/17 Magico
Result (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5624294&postcount=1397) 2nd/22 Tru3z3rox

The Core

// Lands

14 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
// Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Sylvan Messenger

// Other
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

The core of this deck consists of 55 cards, that's a lot! That doesn't mean there's a lot of freedom to choose from here, but there's several options out there.

Deck explanation

These are the necessary components in a NO Elves deck.

Tempo
The deck utilizes mana production creatures that allow you to create tempo differences. Llanowar Elves/Fyndhorn Elves together with Quirion Ranger are responsible for this. Couple this together with Wasteland and you put yourself in a very favorable position compared to your opponent.

Card Advantage
There are a few cards available for Elves that allow you to gain card advantage over your opponent. Imperious Perfect, Wolf-Skull Shaman, Elvish Visionary and Sylvan Messenger. If any of them resolve and stick you'll be capable of creating a lot of CA in the course of the game. An aggro deck without card advantage should play Zoo or Sligh instead.

Mana Production
The card advantage engine wouldn't have been all that effective isn't wasn't for Elves's ability to create a lot of mana in a short time. The deck contains 10 cards that allow you to create an unfair amount of mana. Priest of Titania, Elvish Archdruid and Gaea's Cradle.

The Aggro Component
Part of Elves is that the above engines can quickly be turned into strong aggro components. Elves decks Utilize at least 12 Lords; Elvish Champion - which gives you a huge advantage against any green deck, Imperious Perfect - which also creates CA, and Elvish Archdruid - which also doubles as mana production. Often, also Tribal Forcemage or Joraga Warcaller is used as a singleton, both are cards that are amazing at delivering a finishing blow. New Mirrodin brought us Ezuri, Renegade Leader which has several powerful applications.

The Natural Order package
Natural Order is a card that has proven itself in the legacy scene eversince Progenitus has been printed. If one of the above components fails you will always have NO as a backup plan. Natural Order also allows you sideboard flexibility by having access to cards like Terastodon and Empyrial Archangel. If you want more options mainboard, Deranged Hermit is also an option as a NO target.

New tech; Green Sun's Zenith
Mirrodin Besieged brought us a new toy to play with: GSZ. This card is a tutor for every card in your deck. In all scenario's it gives you something that fits the gamestate. The only downside it has is that it lowers the Elf count for Sylvan Messenger. GSZ is accompanied by a singleton Dryad Arbor to automatically turn it into a turn 1 Llanowar Elf if needed.

The Sideboard

In order to create a sideboard for the deck you need to identify the weaknesses of the deck.

Problem enchantments and artifacts
Mainboard cards like Humility, Moat, Ensnaring Bridge and Solitary Confinement can give NO Elves players problems. There's also a secondary tier of cards that aren't quite as problematic, but still are convenient to remove like Survival of the Fittest, Umezawa's Jitte, Seismic Assault, Isochron's Scepter, Painter's Servant with Grindstone, Counterbalance, Engineered Plague and Smokestack. In order to deal with this, the following package of sideboard cards is recommended:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Nature's Claim
1 Terastodon
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
With 4 Krosan Grips and 1 Terastodon you're running 9 Disenchant effects postboard. Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre also comes in against Painter decks and non interactive decks like Enchantress, where 11 mana is feasible and realistic to reach. A 1 off Viridian Zealot mainboard or sideboard can also be used as a tutor target.

Mass removal
Elves is a deck that typically deploys a lot of creatures and because of that has a weakness in mass removal. The main way to deal is simple: play smarter. The deck already deploys card advantage and Natural Order to deal with a majority of the mass removal. Nature's Resurgence is another nice card against decks that pack a lot of mass removal. There's also Caller of the Claw which, if used correctly, can be a potent threat against mass removal. Another card that is worth looking into is Eldrazi Monument, it's a very hard card to deal with for many decks in the format.

Burn and Sligh decks
These decks are not weak matchups by any means. They are more or less 50/50 depending on who starts. However, to make this MU more failsafe a singleton Empyrial Archangel as a Natural Order target makes the difference between a winnable and unwinnable matchup for the two decks.

Graveyard based decks
The graveyard is a common resource in Legacy. There are two types of graveyard decks. The ones where you need GY hate, because otherwise you have a lot of trouble. And the ones where GY hate is convenient but not neccesary.

In the first category fall Dredge, and Reanimator. These two decks are made to combat hate postboard and as such, need a diverse hate. There are many cards to use in this scenario: Tormod's Crypt, Relic of the Progenitus, Faerie Macabre, Ravenous Trap. If you prepare for these decks, make sure you have a varied hate package.

The second category include Aggro Loam, Lands, Intuition Loam, New Horizons, Tempo ********. Against these decks, I wouldn't go full out with GY hate, even when you have the possibility. Board about 3 cards in, usually 1-2 Crypt and 1-2 Relic.

Green Sun's Zenith toolbox
If you're playing GSZ you usually have pretty strong enchantment removal mainboard already. Usually in the form of Terastodon and Viridian Zealot; this implicates you usually got more space in your sideboard. Gaddock Teeg is a good card against many decks in the format that can be fetched up by GSZ, especially the application against combo is amazing. Dauntless Escort is good against mass removal.

Combo decks
In the construction of your sideboard you need to make the choice if you drop the combo matchup. Against ANT, NLS, TES and Solidarity it is very unlikely you will win without brining 6+ cards in from the board. This means you need to drop the Dredge and Reanimator matchup. If you do, bring a combination of the following cards: Chalice of the Void, Null Rod, Mindbreak Trap, Thorn of the Amethyst and also 2 Tormod's Crypt+ Terastodon. Board out Progenitus, the Messengers and the Wolves because they're not any good in this matchup.

Suggested sideboard
There are two matchups against which Elves will always have trouble. Combo and Graveyard combo, when you want to hate out these decks, don't hate thin; go all out. If you board in 4 cards and lost because you didn't board enough cards you basically wasted sideboard space. Also; and this is important: Diversify you hate; quoting myself on another forum:

There's way more to it then that. You need to diversify your hate. The answer to Thorn is going off fast, the answer to Mindbreak Trap is searching for a Duress or using silence before you go off. As such, the approaches to both cards for a combo player are very different. If you win game 2 with mindbreak trap you can be sure they will chant you before going off, rendering Mindbreak Trap ineffective. As such, diversify your hate.

Core:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Nature's Claim

Combo Heavy:
1 Chalice of the void
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Null Rod
1 Thorn of the Amethyst
Control and GY decks
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
More sideboard variations are entirely possible. If you have suggestions about sideboards that cover the weaknesses post them in this topic and I'll gladly put them in. Remember that you always have Gaddock Teeg as additional hate.

Matchups

Positive Matchups

Merfolk
Merfolk is a tribal deck with a relatively weak tribal component compared to Elves. We shoot way too much stuff at them for them to compete. Builds which include Coralhelm Commander are slightly harder but not significantly. Games against Merfolk are either even, or a total blowout.
Board in - nothing
Board out - nothing

UWg Threshold
Threshold is a great deck, and Counter/Top can give you a hard time when established. But it's still a deck we prey on and have a positive matchup against. Much like Merfolk, it's either even or a total blowout.
Board in - 3-4 Krosan Grips
Board out - 1 Quirion Ranger, 2 Wolf-Skull Shaman

Bant Survival
This is slightly harder then the UWg ******** version of bant, but still not undoable. If they resolve an Iona you're in trouble, but if you resolve a Progenitus they are just as dead. Forestwalk helps here as well.
Board in - 3 Krosan Grip
Board out - 3 Wolf-Skull Shaman

Goblins
This matchup is very dependent on who starts but still a matchup you want to have. Modern Goblins don't run Mogg Fanatic nor Sharpshooter anymore. In the aggro race you should win, you usually create more CA faster. A resolved NO usually means GG.
Board in - Nothing
Board out - Nothing

New Horizons
A tempo deck that preys on weak manabases is not a deck that wants to play against you. They can get big but are hurt by both NO, your CA and forestwalk. As well as their inability to seriously disrupt your gameplan.
Board in - 3 Krosan Grip
Board out - 3 Wolf-Skull Shaman

Eva Green
This deck tries to do something similar to New Horizons that just doesn't work that well against you - disrupt your manabase. Game 1 should almost always result in a win. It gets interesting game 2 and 3 where you are forced to not overextend because of Perish.
Board in - 2 Nature's Resurgence
Board out - 1 Tribal Forcemage, 1 WSS

Bant Aggro with NO Prog
You both have the Progenitus package, but Elves plays way more creatures and generates more CA.
Board in - Nothing
Board out - Nothing

White Stax - any stax
Stax effects are another thing that just don't work that well against you. Tabernacle? Sure, Priest of Titania/Elvish Archdruid. If you have a turn 1 Llanowar Elf and two lands in hand it usually is really hard to lose this.
Board in - 3 Krosan Grip
Board out - 3 Wolf-Skull Shaman

Even matchups and mediocre matchups

I wrote up a bit about this match-up here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6010966&postcount=1845)
Preboard this is the same winnable matchup, postboard you're in for some really hard games.

Zoo
Zoo is a deck that can blow you out, but if the game lasts long enough you'll always get the upperhand. Take damage early game and try to stabilize somewhere around 10 life. Once you get either enough lords or a Progenitus in play you can start winning.
Board in - 1 Empyrial Archangel
Board out - 1 Tribal Forcemage

Supreme Blue
Supreme blue is like UWg Threshold except that it also runs Firespout. Which means you either need to get lords into play quickly or resolve NO or not overextend. CA engines are important in this matchup.
Board in - 2 Nature's Resurgence
Board out - 1 Tribal Forcemage, 1 Quirion Ranger

Landstill
This one actually edges out to more negative, but it doesn't have to be. Your hand determines this game. Either set yourself up for the long game and play conservative or play all out aggro and win before they reach 4 mana. Both are possibilities.
Board in - 4 Krosan Grip, 2 Nature's Resurgence on the draw
4 Krosan Grip on the play
Board out - 4 Elvish Champion 1 Quirion Ranger 1 Sylvan Messenger on the draw
4 Sylvan Messengers on the play

Enchantress
Game one you have no other chance then racing them. Which on occasion can work. The deck can win by turn 3. Postboard you bring out 10 Disenchant effects.
Board in - 2 Krosan Grip, 2 Nature's Claim 1 Terastodon, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Board out - 4 Sylvan Messenger

Lands
Save your wastelands, preferably keep them in your hand. Establish a board pressence that allows your to finish them off (forestwalk!). Occasionally you can race them. Board in graveyard hate to prevent locks.
Board in - 2 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Relic of Progenitus, 2 Ravenous Trap 1 Terastodon
Board out - 4 Sylvan Messenger, 2 WSS

Aggro Loam
Two options again, a fast attack, which extremely dangerous against this deck. Or a slow game where you play conservative. Quirion Ranger is extremely important here. Stay on a low land count so a DD won't kill your entire land base. NO Prog can only be dealt with by BWish into Perish for aggro loam so that's a strong play.
Board in - 2 GY hate or sweepers hate on the draw
Board out - Don't board out any card advantage or NO's

UW Tempo - NoGoyf
This isn't always an even matchup. I've played many times against UWT players where the match was a total blowout. Only when you play against a good player this becomes an even matchup. Serra Avenger with a Jitte is a big problem. They board in Ethersworn Cannonist which is annoying, but not impossible to deal with. You probably do not want this game to last long.
Board in - 2-3 Krosan Grip on the draw
Board out - 2-3 Elvish Champion on the draw

Death and Taxes
A very similar matchup as the above. But more dependent on the build as well. If the player uses Catalysm you're in trouble. Otherwise, they don't have any counters so just throw eveything out.
Board in - Usually nothing
Board out - Usually nothing

Canadian Threshold
The "outdated" version of New Horizons, but much stronger against Elves then NH. They got Fire, Bolts and often Pyroclasm in the board. Still, since the adoption of 4 extra lords and Proggy this matchup isn't too bad. Attack their GY with Crypts and Relics.
Board in - 2 Tormod's Crypt 1 Relic of Progenitus - or nothing
Board out - Worst 3 cards, depends

[B]Bad matchups

Storm Combo - NLS, ANT, TES, DDANT, Solidarity
This is a bad matchup by definition. The mainboard isn't made to fight this at all. If you expect a lot of combo you can tune your sideboard to fight it, but you require 6+ spots.
Board in - All combo hate you have + Terastodon + Tormod's Crypt for IGG
Board out - 4 Sylvan Messenger

Belcher
Belcher is actually less of a bad matchup the Storm Combo is. I've faced 10 Goblins turn 1 on the play before and you can usually pump out creatures fast enough to overcome the little green man. The Belcher kill can be dealt with by Grips - if you're fast enough
Board in - 4 Krosan Grips + relevant combo hate
Board out - 4 Sylvan Messenger

Dredge
Dredge is a deck known to win their game one. Against Elves this won't be any different. Game 1 you can only win if you get a turn 2 Progenitus (Llanowar Elves, Quirion Ranger, Gaea's Cradle, Natural Order and Forest) or a really fast aggro start.
Game two is all about the hate you bring in. In a regular sideboard, this should be a lot. Attack their mana base as it severely hinders their progress.
Board in - All relevant GY hate
Board out - Messengers, WSS

1maarten1

06-27-2010, 03:04 PM

nice primer :) I placed 9th today in Utrecht, where you won yesterday ;). I was playing Combo elves tho, but with Progenitus + NO. The games I won through combo and Prog are about the same. If you want I can post my matchups and, if I remember, write something about them ;). (I already post this in the benelegacy thread)

Anyway I am going to test a more aggro combo build, but still combo but with jorega warcallers as win-con.

~Maarten

Plague Sliver

06-28-2010, 12:48 AM

Forgive me if I'm missing something ... what do you do when you draw Progenitus into your hand? How does the deck cycle it back into library?

conboy31

06-28-2010, 01:08 AM

You are not missing anything. Accept that you drew it, and either not natural order or natural order into the best green creature left in your deck. Probably a messenger to reload, forestwalk, or a different lord.

Nessaja

06-28-2010, 08:17 AM

Hawdes

06-28-2010, 09:48 AM

Hands with Prog in it I usually mull. There's no sense in putting discard outlets in your deck for a 1/60 chance. The times you got NO and Prog in hand you go for the Messenger indeed.

I can't recall a single game where I lost because I drew the Progenitus though.

In the case of mulling and going down one card, you look at your hand and see if it works even though you have Progenitus in it.
If you have a really good/decent starting hand of 7, with Progenitus in it. It would simply play out as 6 cards anyway.
I'm just saying, automulling if you have progenitus in your starting 7, 6 or 5 isn't that bad, if the hand got game without NO.

Combo Winter

06-28-2010, 01:49 PM

Isn't this just a form of aggro elves I don't see how you have a differnet plan than any other elf beatdown deck.

Tru3z3rox

06-28-2010, 01:57 PM

Is it terrible not running quiron ranger in the deck? I like her, but I find that she is a terrible top deck and I don't usually need her mana tricks anyway.

Also what do you guys think of running 2 steely resolves in the main? Now that zoo will be more prevalent there may be a need for these. I'm running them instead of thorns as combo shouldn't be too much of a problem anymore.

LostButSeeking

06-28-2010, 02:09 PM

Isn't this just a form of aggro elves I don't see how you have a differnet plan than any other elf beatdown deck.

Compare the above list with the list in the first post of the elf aggro thread.

12 Forests
2 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Gaea's cradle
1 Oran Rief the Vastwood
4 Root Maze
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Elephant Grass
4 ESG
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Priest of Titania
3 Llanowar elves
3 Fyndhorn elves
2 Wren's Run vanquisher
2 Elvish Archdruid
2 Wren's Run Packmaster

Not really the same, are they? The lists in the elvish survival thread or combo elves are all even MORE different.

leander?

06-28-2010, 02:21 PM

New Horizons
[I]Board in - 3 Krosan Grip
I don't get this. What relevant Artifacts and/or Enchantments in New Horizons am I missing? Is Dueling Grounds that common in their Sideboards?

Also, I was wondering what your reasoning is behind not playing Survival of the Fittest. What makes this build better than the Survival build?

Nessaja

06-28-2010, 02:43 PM

I don't get this. What relevant Artifacts and/or Enchantments in New Horizons am I missing? Is Dueling Grounds that common in their Sideboards?

Also, I was wondering what your reasoning is behind not playing Survival of the Fittest. What makes this build better than the Survival build?

Correct, it should be +2 Crypt +1 Relic. The primer was made with a lot of ctrl+c -> ctrl + v to prevent carpel tunnel syndrome >>

Anyway, the reasoning for not playing SotF is manyfold. If you've kept up with the Epic Survival topic you might've noticed that Di (creator of that deck) even moved away from using Survivals.

- SotF puts you in the position where you need to make suboptimal choices in your deck building to build it around SotF. Otherwise dead cards and alike.
- SotF and Wasteland don't like eachother.
- Playing SotF means that you pretty much need to splash, this makes you vulnerable to a whole new deck type, popular in legacy.
- Quasali Pridemage
- You lower your Elf count which matters for about 23 of your cards
- We got no real way to deal with multiples, it's not neccesarily always a good thing to have multiples in this deck, especially if paired with NO's.

I urge you to try the two decks alongside and notice that the strong and weak matchups are actually quite different. As for Survival Elves, I'm fairly certain that Bant Survival is the better option when you're playing that type of deck, or in other words, Survival Elves is a suboptimal version of Bant Survival as far as I'm concerned. NO Elves has a much more focussed approach and is harder to disrupt for most decks.

Elves is a tribe whose main focus is on another part of the game that Survival is strong at. It's like playing WoG in a tempo oriented deck. It strays away so far from the general gameplan. It's also similar to playing Foodchain Goblins over Vial Goblins, you're going into an area where you prefer not to be when playing Goblins, even though it gives you a combo finish and more certainty to win the long game. But Elves in its current incarnation already has a rediculously strong game that isn't matched by many decks. Only Landstill -esque decks give it trouble there.

Unlike NO, SotF is not a card that you simply put in a deck and keep everything else the same. So far, all my attempts at including NO in the deck only made the deck less consistent and/or slower. What you might gain is a better matchup against The Rock, it certainly won't against Zoo or other fast aggro.

Now don't get me wrong, it's not something that is totally wrong or something alike. It's different. In the last two years I've gone on and off on Survival and what I learned is that, while it's a powerful card, it's not a card you can rely on in legacy. It's a bomb where you should probably have an aggro oriented card in the 2 mana spot. The obvious thing to do would be -4 WSS into +4 SotF and a Squee, probably getting rid of a Elvish Champion. I don't neccesarily judge this as wrong but I do want to say this. Any time that SotF is not in play you'll be playing a worse version of the deck, getting less out of your synergies, getting worse Messenger piles, a topdecked SotF with only NO in hand is really bad - and this works vice versa too. What you get are these minor weaknesses that make the deck less consistent. The times where SotF makes you win a game that you otherwise wouldn't are just far less then the times it gets in the way.

Isn't this just a form of aggro elves I don't see how you have a differnet plan than any other elf beatdown deck.
As Tru3z3rox said, this game doesn't have much in common with the Aggro Elves topic here on the source. That build is aggro control which I do not believe to be the right course for Aggro Elves. When compared to combo elves there's almost nothing in common and when compared to Survival Elves you're using an entirely different engine.

Tre3z3rox - yes, not running Quirion Ranger is not a good idea as far as I'm concerned. Though I am interested what you have in mind for her instead.

routlaw

06-28-2010, 05:39 PM

I've only played aggro elves w/o NO and I can definitely say that this list plays very differently than something with Wren's Run Vanquisher.

Any thoughts on maindecking some sort of alternate NO target (Terastodon to blow up problem permanents? Primeval Titan to "fetch" two wastelands on a huge trampling body?) to go alongside Progenitus? It's almost always the right call to get the hydra out, I suppose, but the allure of having something big and high impact off a second NO since you're running four already seems pretty high, at least to this outsider looking in. Then again, it might be the danger of cool things talking.

You might want to look at leaning on Relic of Progenitus for your GY hate if Reanimator winds up slowing down a bit. It's a good way to continuously deal with Lavamancer (which is a problem, if they want to blow a pridemage to "solve it", while you draw a card, OK), it blows out New Horizons, and seems as solid against Loam strategies as Crypt is.

leander?

06-29-2010, 02:50 AM

The only situation I can come up with in wich a second NO target is usefull is a Moat stopping your Hydra from attacking. In that case you would want to tutor for Terrastodon. But that is about it, too. (I can't find anything about this "Primeval Titan", maybe you mean Woodfall Primus?)

Oh, and about Relic: I can add that VS Aggro Loam, it's much better than Crypt.

Mayk0l

06-29-2010, 03:31 AM

Primeval Titan is the new M11 card.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106732&d=1277698427

I don't think it's good enough.

Tru3z3rox

06-29-2010, 12:44 PM

Correct, it should be +2 Crypt +1 Relic. The primer was made with a lot of ctrl+c -> ctrl + v to prevent carpel tunnel syndrome >>

Anyway, the reasoning for not playing SotF is manyfold. If you've kept up with the Epic Survival topic you might've noticed that Di (creator of that deck) even moved away from using Survivals.

- SotF puts you in the position where you need to make suboptimal choices in your deck building to build it around SotF. Otherwise dead cards and alike.
- SotF and Wasteland don't like eachother.
- Playing SotF means that you pretty much need to splash, this makes you vulnerable to a whole new deck type, popular in legacy.
- Quasali Pridemage
- You lower your Elf count which matters for about 23 of your cards
- We got no real way to deal with multiples, it's not neccesarily always a good thing to have multiples in this deck, especially if paired with NO's.

I urge you to try the two decks alongside and notice that the strong and weak matchups are actually quite different. As for Survival Elves, I'm fairly certain that Bant Survival is the better option when you're playing that type of deck, or in other words, Survival Elves is a suboptimal version of Bant Survival as far as I'm concerned. NO Elves has a much more focussed approach and is harder to disrupt for most decks.

Elves is a tribe whose main focus is on another part of the game that Survival is strong at. It's like playing WoG in a tempo oriented deck. It strays away so far from the general gameplan. It's also similar to playing Foodchain Goblins over Vial Goblins, you're going into an area where you prefer not to be when playing Goblins, even though it gives you a combo finish and more certainty to win the long game. But Elves in its current incarnation already has a rediculously strong game that isn't matched by many decks. Only Landstill -esque decks give it trouble there.

Unlike NO, SotF is not a card that you simply put in a deck and keep everything else the same. So far, all my attempts at including NO in the deck only made the deck less consistent and/or slower. What you might gain is a better matchup against The Rock, it certainly won't against Zoo or other fast aggro.

Now don't get me wrong, it's not something that is totally wrong or something alike. It's different. In the last two years I've gone on and off on Survival and what I learned is that, while it's a powerful card, it's not a card you can rely on in legacy. It's a bomb where you should probably have an aggro oriented card in the 2 mana spot. The obvious thing to do would be -4 WSS into +4 SotF and a Squee, probably getting rid of a Elvish Champion. I don't neccesarily judge this as wrong but I do want to say this. Any time that SotF is not in play you'll be playing a worse version of the deck, getting less out of your synergies, getting worse Messenger piles, a topdecked SotF with only NO in hand is really bad - and this works vice versa too. What you get are these minor weaknesses that make the deck less consistent. The times where SotF makes you win a game that you otherwise wouldn't are just far less then the times it gets in the way.

As Tru3z3rox said, this game doesn't have much in common with the Aggro Elves topic here on the source. That build is aggro control which I do not believe to be the right course for Aggro Elves. When compared to combo elves there's almost nothing in common and when compared to Survival Elves you're using an entirely different engine.

Tre3z3rox - yes, not running Quirion Ranger is not a good idea as far as I'm concerned. Though I am interested what you have in mind for her instead.

I run 2 Steely Resolves to shroud up my elves. It helps a lot against burn and removal. Aside from that I have a pretty typical list.

Lands:
13 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
3 Wasteland

NO Prog Package:
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

Enchantments:
2 Steely Resolve

Creatures:
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Elvish Champion
2 Tribal Forcemage
3 Joraga Warcaller
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher

My board is in transition from hating combo to hating a more aggro meta game and decks packing mass removal now. You guys have any recommendations for a good all around board?

P.S. - The reason for me not running quiron is that she is a terrible topdeck and she does not really affect the board when she hits. Granted she can give me tons of mana; but between 8 mana dorks, 4 priests, 4 archdruids, and 2 cradles I'm never really hurting for mana...

Nessaja

07-01-2010, 07:10 AM

Concerning WSS, maybe this will be his replacement.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106878&d=1277957032

This card puzzles me, it's inferior to Survival, but also much better at the same time. In the sense that it blocks, gains bonuses, is infinitely better as a lone topdeck without cards in hand, draws of messenger, can be sacced for Natural Order and is also good in multiples.

As such, I think I might add in 3 Fauna Shaman, 1 Survival of the Fittest 1 Squee for 4 WSS and something else.

Hawdes

07-01-2010, 08:42 AM

I'm puzzled for a complete other reason... All elf decks state that Zoo/Boros are even matchups... But I can't simply understand how...
In each match, both in testing and tournamet, I get my balls burned out when piloting elves...
I've tested the combo Elves, Survival Elves, Aggro Elves with and without NO...
The only card that remotely gives me a theoretical chance at winning is a T2 NO hoping that they can't burn the sac in response or burn it out even earlier...

What's the deal? How should I play against Zoo? Slow roll them or just straight out force in my creatures.
I've been trying everything without success, even maindeck Absolute Law etc.

routlaw

07-01-2010, 09:00 AM

Wait, it's been my understanding with NO that you sacrifice a green creature as an additional cost of casting the spell. They can't burn out/path to exile your green dude in response to you casting it-at that point it is already too late for them.

As for the Fauna Shaman, I think you can just add 2-3 copies right to the deck for whatever two-drop you are currently playing and be done with it. Instead of trying to use it as a Surivial engine with Squee (who takes another slot and is a dead draw w/o a active one on the board), just punish players who don't kill it by exchanging a one-drop elf for a card advantage generator like Sylvan Messenger or Imperious Perfect.

Fauna Shaman also plays great in decks with Elvish Spirit Guide, as a vanilla 2/2 for 3 mana is icky if you have an established board, and "cycling it" to instead grab another lord or messenger would be much preferable.

Nessaja

07-01-2010, 09:09 AM

Wait, it's been my understanding with NO that you sacrifice a green creature as an additional cost of casting the spell. They can't burn out/path to exile your green dude in response to you casting it-at that point it is already too late for them.
Correct.

For Zoo, play it slow, if you can stabilize before 5-8 life you'll win it, you got much more CA then they do.

I'm not sure about Fauna Shaman yet. I don't know if it's better then WSS if I don't use Squee.

Hawdes

07-01-2010, 10:03 AM

Correct.

For Zoo, play it slow, if you can stabilize before 5-8 life you'll win it, you got much more CA then they do.

I'm not sure about Fauna Shaman yet. I don't know if it's better then WSS if I don't use Squee.

Ofc, they can't burn it in response. Stupid me. But i was thinking of the scenario that they keep my board clean so that I can't NO.

Anyway... I'll try and play it safe... I'm trying out a list like this now:

2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Oran-Rief, The Vastwood
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
1 Taiga
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Priest of Titania
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Elvish Champion
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Imperious Perfect
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Norwood Priestess
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Progenitus

4 Natural Order

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Swords to Plowshares (I really hate zoo)
3 Chalice of the void (don't really know what to use it against besides combo?)
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Magus of the Moon

Thinking of what people said about just ignoring Anger and Squee. But Squee makes the Survival/Fauna Engine CA. Instead of 1 for 1.
It will show in testing, and yes... I know the lists goes more towards Survival at the moment, but I consider it more Aggro with silver bullets due to Fauna actually being a creature.

TossUsToLions

07-01-2010, 04:05 PM

Concerning WSS, maybe this will be his replacement.

That is exactly what I was thinking. I have also been disappointed with WSS after bringing him back in my deck. I side him out a lot ( and it looks like you do too, Nessaja, according to your primer). I am so excited to test him out.

I also think that most people should play Wren's Run Vanquisher. How does everyone deal with goyfs, rhox war monks, merfolk that are bigger than your elves, etc.? I have never considered cutting it as it usually forces a counter/removal spell which opens up the game for more lords.

Tru3z3rox

07-01-2010, 04:07 PM

I think the new Fauna Shaman is amazing. It is not necessarily CA, but card quality. I'd rather not devote a chunk of the deck to a CA combo, but just improve the qualities of my draws. Definitely a 2 of in my deck over Wren's Run Vanquisher. Although it will be sad to see the deathtouch go...

Tru3z3rox

07-01-2010, 04:10 PM

That is exactly what I was thinking. I have also been disappointed with WSS after bringing him back in my deck. I side him out a lot ( and it looks like you do too, Nessaja, according to your primer). I am so excited to test him out.

I also think that most people should play Wren's Run Vanquisher. How does everyone deal with goyfs, rhox war monks, merfolk that are bigger than your elves, etc.? I have never considered cutting it as it usually forces a counter/removal spell which opens up the game for more lords.

I think many don't play him because of his lack of synergy with the deck. He is simply a beater (which is nice), but he doesn't swing the game much if he hits play (especially if he is bolted).

TossUsToLions

07-02-2010, 02:05 PM

Also on the fauna shaman: it works well with quirion ranger, allowing us to activate the ability twice on our turn and once on the opponent's turn (not really sure when you would want to do this though).

But one huge upside is that it gives the deck a way to discard Proggy when we draw him. We have no way to get rid of him right now if he is in our hand and i hate dead cards.

Hanni

07-02-2010, 02:24 PM

I'd rather not devote a chunk of the deck to a CA combo

The only cards you devote to the engine is 1 Squee, and if you splash red, 1 Anger. You were probably already running Viridian Zealot, and even if you weren't, it's not going to hurt to run 1.

Summoning sickness + tap ability sucks, but a 2cc 2/2 that receives pumps from the rest of your Elves makes him useful at least. Allow him to get going with Quirion Ranger, and you suddenly have a very powerful draw engine.

Maybe he's a better fit in regular aggro Elves than NO Elves, but he seems like a good elf to run if you ask me.

(nameless one)

07-02-2010, 02:49 PM

If you are only running 2 of that Elvish Darwin, i dont see why we should use Squee and Anger. Yes, Suvival builds use them as part of their engine but as a creature, it would be a removal-magnet. Remember Bob? Bob doesnt usually stick on the board for more than 2 turns.

Like what was mentioned, Its a good card quality but I wouldnt devote an engine on it, especially if its a weaker version of its homage card.

Neil

07-05-2010, 02:50 PM

About a year and a half ago I pretty much copied this deck (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19272) except I took out 3 Skyshroud Elite (http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=Skyshroud+Elite&v=card&s=cname) and added 2 Elvish Champion (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/261.html) and 1 Imperious Perfect (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Imperious+Perfect&v=card&s=cname).

I want to update my deck by adding NO (http://magiccards.info/vi/en/64.html) and Progenitus (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/121.html). Which cards should I replace? Also, I found the Heritage Druid (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Heritage+Druid&v=card&s=cname) and Nettle Sentinel (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Nettle+Sentinel&v=card&s=cname) combo to be effective in my deck (and the individual cards to be quite good), but noticed that the builds on the first page in this thread drop them but include Priest of Titania (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/35.html). Does this actually work more effectively?

Hawdes

07-05-2010, 05:53 PM

I'm currently working on a NO-Elves deck that's way different than most lists in here. The main reason for me to scrap the decklists in here is the decks performance against a very popular DTB deck. Zoo that is.
The elf tribe has slim, even zero, game against Zoo. The tribe's creatures are most likely to be underpowered against a player who actually knows what he's doing.
If they just target the lords, you're sitting there with the fyndhorns, the llanowars and Priest of Titanias... You have all that mana and nothing to play that can actually be a threat until it's too late, if they even let your mana elves live.

That's why I came up with a list that doesn't require that much lords to actually be playable, a deck that can play a Elf lord for 1 mana, and make some of your army hard to crack. I will post a draft of my list, but it has to be put on some serious testing.
At the time I post this, the deck is in it's early stages. It still runs the "I win button" of Natural Order, but instead of playing mass elves that don't affect my opponent, like Priest of Titania, Llanowars, Fyndhorns etc. I opt for elves with more beats and utility.

I present to you, my own take on NO-Elves.

3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
2 Savannah

2 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Joraga Warcaller
4 Bramblewood Paragon
4 Viridian Zealot
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Progenitus

4 Natural Order
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Relic of Progenitus

Sideboard is currently under construction, aswell as some thoughts I still have for the maindeck. I have thoughts of adding Deranged Hermit as a NO target... Calculating the damage with 1 Oran-Rief online, gives 14 damage on the board. It races harder than Progenitus, but it has the drawback of not having shroud, but you get 5 dudes in 1 card compared with 1 for 1 in Progenitus.
Green does not have real CA, if we should be honest with eachother... The only way Green can obtain CA is to generate tokens, as in Imperious Perfect, Deranged Hermit etc.
It's straight forward without shinnanigans with Quirion or Wirewood, and wirewood often eats the bin to either a bolt, Lavamancer or gets flipped away with Sylvan Messenger.

Remember, this is just another direction I'm trying out since I got tired of all the junk elves that did not contribute to the deck adding pressure on my opponent, and it's in it's early stages of developement.

Nessaja

07-09-2010, 05:30 PM

evilgorrilaz

07-10-2010, 03:06 AM

Quick 3 round tournament i recently played.

List:

Lands
11 Forest
4 Wasteland
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendelhaven

NO Package
3 Natural Orders
1 Progenitus

Elf army and insect
1 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Elvish Champion
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Wolf-Skull Shaman
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
3 Quirion Ranger

Sideboard:
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Terrastodon
4 Krosan Grip
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thorn of Amythest

Notes:
Packmaster was for cool deathtouching wolves, probably wouldn't run it in a super serious event.

Rd 1: Chris with RWb Painter/Grindstone homebrew
Game 1: I go mana dork, WSS, lord, lord, drop more elves, beat face. He only plays 2 EE the whole game, so I have no idea what to really bring in. I take out the Warcaller, Packmaster, symbiote, champion for 4 grips.

Game 2: I mull because I have a wasteland only hand. I open up with a mana dork, he goes isochron -> lightning helix and proceeds to kill stuff. I resolve a NOProg, thanks to him using ancient tomb I take him down to 2. He proceeds to rip ensnaring bridge off the top. I didn't draw any one of my grips the whole game. I'm not exactly sure how to SB this MU, so I replace Progenitus with Terastodon.

Game 3: I drop mana dorks and 2 WSS. I proceed to build my board up to lethal. I use grips to keep him off grindstone, so the board is pretty much 8 wolves, 2 mana dorks, a WSS, and a lord against his many lands and a top. However, I accidentally tap out with grip in my hand to put more lethal on board. Brainfart for getting only 4 hours of sleep. He fetches and gets both painter and grindstone in his top 3. I lose.

0-1 (1-2)

Rd 2: Damon with Entomb Ichorid
Game 1:He mulligans to 5 while I keep a hand of 2 mana dorks, 1 WSS, 1 cradle, 1 forest, a lord, and a quirion ranger. I go mana dork. He opens up city of brass->careful study pitching a dredger. I play quirion ranger, wss, and lord. He dredges, hits nothing relevant. I beat down hard. SB Packmaster, symbiote, warcaller, and 2 messengers out. In comes 4 relics and crypt.

Game 2:He opens up rainbow land into careful study pitching Phantasmagorian. I play mana dork. He pitches dredgers, dredges, then entombs ichorid. I play more mana dorks. He dredges some more, gets a zombie from ichorid. I play archdruid. He dredges some more and gets another zombie. I drop a few more mana dorks and a WSS, then NO a mana dork into progenitus. He dredges some more. Again does nothing. I draw relic, kill his gaveyard. He scoops. He says he ahd win with a single bridge + ichorid + ancestors chosen in graveyard to gain him like 40 life. If I hadn't drawn the relic, I still think I would ahve won given that I churn out wolves to die with his zombies and had a messenger in hand.

1-1 (3-2)

Rd 3: Michael with enchantress
Game 1: He gets 4th turn confinement lock on me. Not much else to be said. SB 4 WSS, symbiote, packmaster, progenitus out. 4 Grips, 1 terastodon, 2 chalice in.

Game 2: I keep a sketch hand with 0 enchantment removal that is kind of slow, but has chalice. I go mana dork. He drops land and passes. I go priest. He drops sterling grove. I drop chalice for 2 and mana dork. He gets out enchantresses presence. I make another terrible mistake and go for chalice at 1 instead of chalice at 3. He drops tons of enchantress's presence and solitary confinement lock. I keep digging hoping to get a grip. He casts sterling groves (getting countered) and discards a sigil of the empty throne to confinement and casts replenish. I have no mass enchantment removal so I scoop.

1-2 (3-4)

Notes:
WSS is nuts, if they don't have removal for him he is often 6 power for 2 mana. Him sticking is akin to priest or archdruid sticking with plenty of guys in hand.
My one ofs were pretty bad, I think there needs to be a better mana sink. I haven't tried forcemage yet really, although I didn't play against aggro.
I think dredge is a far better MU than what Naz has it listed on the primer. WSS just seems to be so nuts in that department. The wolves provide a solid defense against the zombies and they have no way of removing it really. The MU gets a lot better as well after SB.
Enchantress I think is a far worse MU than listed. Game 1 is nearly unwinnable, as unless you are running zealot the deck has no answer for a turn 4 moat or confinement. Games 2 and 3 get betters, but not by much. I think chalice is essential in this MU because you need a chalice @2 to stop argothian enchantress. Going first is huge because sticking chalice @2 before they land an enchantress or sterling grove makes it really hard for them to win.

I found priest of titania to be extremely lacking. Most of the time, for dropping lots of dudes or using imperious perfect, the 1 mana dorks and archdruid are usually enough. Priest mana only seems useful when I start chaining messengers together. The problem is I can't think of any decent replacement for it.

Hawdes

07-10-2010, 03:11 AM

Hawdes - I have over a year experience with the deck. NO Elves does not fold to Zoo at all. If you say that Elves has zero chance you quite frankly don't know what you're talking about, I wish there was a friendlier way to say that but it's quite simply the truth. That doesn't mean that Elves doesn't need help with Zoo, it's a 40/60 matchup. And that's on the low side. Elves generate a lot of CA, if you live past turn 5 you got a pretty big chance of winning. Anyway, your deck is cute and all, but it really doesn't have anything to do with the topic - as far as I'm concerned. You're playing such an inferior version of Zoo and you trying to create a deck around a lord that is required to be in play prior to casting. Good luck with testing, but I've already been there.

In my testing with a vast amount of different builds of straight forward NO Elves the deck almost completely folds to Zoo/Boros type decks. I've also been playing different type of elf builds as Combo Elves, Elfball, Survival Elves, you name it, I've played it.
If you say it's a 40/60 matchup then you're just playing against very bad Zoo players or you're overestimating the decks capability to battle Zoo.
Out of aprox 60 games against different builds of Zoo type decks, I've managed to win 8-10 games, not with elves but a T2 NO into prog which they cannot race. But ok you're right, it has a chance, but it's minimal... Touché.

I don't really understand how your "experience with the deck" have anything to do with innovation and new ideas. Just because you have experince with a build, it doesn't say you're god all mighty. I did not even bother to report my whole experience portfolio. But since it seems to be a must to get my voice heard, I'll just simply have to tell the op of the post and everyone else that I've been playing different elf decks over the past three years. Started playing magic as of the printing of Mirage. That must mean that my arguments and posts are worth more? I'm just saying this blunt and very obvious for you guys to actually realize that stating this is completly retarded. It has little importance if you're vastly experienced with a decktype. Everything you need to know about a deck is it's gameplan and what decks it's up against.
This is the feeling that I get from posting in every thread around the source. There are always some schmucks that tend to be arrogant... This hinders evolution of decks since they aren't open for new ideas.

I'm not saying that your build is complete shite, I'm just stating that playing a deck with unfavourable matchups against one of the most popular decks at tournaments in legacy, will result in total failure or having luck with pairings. Therefore you, I, we, must adapt to the enviroment. What can we do to increase the probabilty of our deck winning against the most played decks. Statistics say that aprox. 19% of the decks brought to tournaments are Zoo-type decks. This is due to the fact that the recent banning of Mystical Tutor had an impact on various combo decks, making them slower and therefore not as viabable in a format where a CMC 4 spell HAS to win the game.

The purpose of forums are to help eachother evolving ideas and not to gun down each new idea without even asking yourselves "why did this guy feel the need to post this and let us know?".

I just have to reply to your statement that my list is built around a lord, this statement is false. It adds a lot to the deck which packs 30 ish boltable creatures. To state that the list is inferior without testing is total bullocks unless you can cleary state why and give constructive arguments for why it's inferior. It's easy to critisize, but harder to actually be constructive when critisizing. Give examples, explain why my choices are worse/better or whatever could be the issue. We should be able to have an open discussion without being rude. I'm just trying to fix the spots where I feel that the archtype has it's weaknesses, I'm not saying that the build is bullet proof, but I'm close to reaching my goal, which is to beat creature based aggro decks. The deck does not even try to copy a Zoo deck, nor playing Zoo's game. That's why the statement that I'm running a inferior ZOO deck, as stated in your post, is false aswell.
This is a tribal deck, the tribal are Elves.

In testing against regular Zoo players with my list I went up to about 55/45 win chance, with elves so big that they can't be bolted or that they have to use two cards to down one of my creatures. Dropping a 4/4 Vanquisher (at least) is house against most cards in a Zoo deck, and Bramblewood Paragons are good in multiples aswell.
The reason for my build to look the way it does is due to the fact that I adopted the outline of one of the most potent and aggressive decks in the format, Zoo. With creatures that's more than often bigger. Adding Bramblewood Paragon into the mix does not force me to play inferior creatures at all since most of the lords and other elves that see play and are viable already have the type Warrior in it's creature type.
Playing maindeck Zealots have also proven to be house against a vast majority of the field in my meta since every deck packs tons of equipment and enchantments.
I would much rather play Aether Vial than the poor 1 mana elves that the tribe can contribute with. And if we're going to discuss the WSS, I would much rather run Vanquisher's or the likes with a bigger body than a "maybe" wolf generating creature. Even Talara's Battalion is better imo in a meta that's packed with aggro decks (since the banning of mystical tutor).

The deck plays out well against many of the aggro decks out there, i.e. Zoo, Boros Sligh, Merfolk, Goblins and so on. To be honest, some games are difficult to play and very tight, and if you don't keep your head straight, you'll easily lose. But that's the same for most decks. No deck can autopilot itself to victory.

But ok, if you and the rest of the people think that I should take the deck idea and shove it up my ass and shut it. Then I will.
My bad that I'm trying to evolve a deck that atleast have game against decks and don't self destruct if we don't hit 4 mana and NO, hoping that they cannot counter it...
Synergy is the key to legacy, not playing a deck that when it runs like a God, it rapes, but when you get the shite hands, it completely self-destruct... Consistency, synergy and knowing what your deck is supposed to do and do it well is what every deckbuild should consider.

Most skilled Zoo players will just focus on holding the lord count down and let your 1/1 and 2/2 elves sit there, being beaten down by their way larger beats... You cannot simply outrace a good Zoo player with 1/1 and 2/2 elves with abilities that don't make a difference and affect the opponents board.

I'm not saying that my build is the perfect build, on the contrary, it folds to combo, it's still in development and could be further improved. But the fact that we limit ourselves to a card pool containing the creature type elves result in that we have to play sub-par cards, compare Pridemage vs. Zealot.

Either way, peace out. Won't post in this thread anymore due to being gunned down for new innovations. Even though the two decks have the same gameplan, which result in that a new thread would not be considered viable.

Nessaja

07-10-2010, 08:18 AM

If you say it's a 40/60 matchup then you're just playing against very bad Zoo players or you're overestimating the decks capability to battle Zoo.
Out of aprox 60 games against different builds of Zoo type decks, I've managed to win 8-10 games, not with elves but a T2 NO into prog which they cannot race. But ok you're right, it has a chance, but it's minimal... Touché.
This is entirely false as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps you need to learn to mulligan better. I haven't played 60 games with NO, I've had more then a full year of testing with exactly this build, 60 games is like a weeks worth of games - I did 52 of those. If you want to know why experience matters; that's why.

Another experience with the deck I have had is that I already went the route you suggested, as I said in my post (perhaps read it?) I quite frankly don't have the time to search through 63 pages of topic (on mtgsalvation) but I already suggested your idea and I got a MWS file from september 2009 (when Oran Rief got spoiled) where I added it to the deck, therefor, your comment that I haven't tested it is false. I have a pretty damn good idea what I'm talking about and unless you got some completely different testing results (with a little more then just 60 games) I am saying still saying that it was "complete shite". The deck is working on cute synergies, Bramblewood Paragon (bad topdeck) and Oran-Rief coupled with otherwise subpar cards (3 WRV, 4 Zealot).

Your list is building around the lord, as was my list. You're playing creatures that you otherwise wouldn't be playing. Four Viridian Zealots main is a good example of that. You want to play more warriors even though those warriors aren't any good without the bonuses from. Figure out for yourself if Bramblewood Paragon is the 56th-60th card you added, if it isn't you probably did build around him. If it is the 56th till 60th card you made some very suboptimal choices along the road.

Your manabase is completely weak, fetches, CITP lands and duals. You're playing exactly the type of manabase that tempo decks prey on. Your plan of creating huge creatures can be interrupted by a wasteland, I hope I don't need to explain the legacy fundamentals.

I don't know what you want me to tell you. You come into a topic with a completely different decklist that has a completely different plan, I already tested nearly exactly that exact list and didn't like it at all, should I tell you I like the list anyway even though it was clumsy as hell in testing for me? I'm not going to do that sorry. If that hurts your ego then that wasn't my intention, I'm not commenting to you as a person but on a build I already tried and shot down.

But prove me wrong, go ahead and win a tournament with the deck. According to you, you got a great matchup against the entire field but combo. Good luck there.

You got a whole paragraph of rambling which I will forgive you for, I obviously hurt your feelings so you felt the need to lash back even though it isn't backed up by either facts or testing. I can tell you you're wrong but you probably know that already.

Sideboard:
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Terrastodon
4 Krosan Grip
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thorn of Amythest

Notes:
Packmaster was for cool deathtouching wolves, probably wouldn't run it in a super serious event.

Game 2: I mull because I have a wasteland only hand. I open up with a mana dork, he goes isochron -> lightning helix and proceeds to kill stuff. I resolve a NOProg, thanks to him using ancient tomb I take him down to 2. He proceeds to rip ensnaring bridge off the top. I didn't draw any one of my grips the whole game. I'm not exactly sure how to SB this MU, so I replace Progenitus with Terastodon.

Game 3: I drop mana dorks and 2 WSS. I proceed to build my board up to lethal. I use grips to keep him off grindstone, so the board is pretty much 8 wolves, 2 mana dorks, a WSS, and a lord against his many lands and a top. However, I accidentally tap out with grip in my hand to put more lethal on board. Brainfart for getting only 4 hours of sleep. He fetches and gets both painter and grindstone in his top 3. I lose.
The correct way to sbl against Painterstone is 4 Krosan Grip, 1 Terastodon and 1 Kozilek/Gaea's Blessing/Emrakul/Ulamog (Ula the best one there) it allows you to tap out and do whatever.

Notes:
WSS is nuts, if they don't have removal for him he is often 6 power for 2 mana. Him sticking is akin to priest or archdruid sticking with plenty of guys in hand.
I think dredge is a far better MU than what Naz has it listed on the primer. WSS just seems to be so nuts in that department. The wolves provide a solid defense against the zombies and they have no way of removing it really. The MU gets a lot better as well after SB.
I respectfully have different experiences. I used to be a dredge player myself and it's fairly easy to win through some Wolf tokens. Dredge has a pretty big difference in skill level between players, maybe that's why your experience differs so much.

Enchantress I think is a far worse MU than listed. Game 1 is nearly unwinnable, as unless you are running zealot the deck has no answer for a turn 4 moat or confinement. Games 2 and 3 get betters, but not by much. I think chalice is essential in this MU because you need a chalice @2 to stop argothian enchantress. Going first is huge because sticking chalice @2 before they land an enchantress or sterling grove makes it really hard for them to win.
I agree that G1 is not good. But you do bring out 10 disenchant effects post board, which is more then most decks can do. There's not a single deck out there that has mass enchantment removal in the SB (disk, perhaps). Another thing is that you probably should board in GY hate as well I disagree that the MU is worse then I stated, you have a lot more tools to fight Enchantress then most decks and a card like Elephant Grass doesn't hurt you as much as for instance Goblins or Merfolk.

I found priest of titania to be extremely lacking. Most of the time, for dropping lots of dudes or using imperious perfect, the 1 mana dorks and archdruid are usually enough. Priest mana only seems useful when I start chaining messengers together. The problem is I can't think of any decent replacement for it.
Priest enables the powerplays the deck can make. In some matchups this becomes important because you'll need to overwhelm your opponent. As well as casting NO's or alike. I think you're better off with Goblins or Merfolk if you're not into that.

routlaw

07-10-2010, 09:20 AM

I did some testing this evening (list similar Nessaja's from the recent report, but MD Terastodon for meta reasons) to with Ichorid (non-LED) and that deck can have issues dealing with a fast Progenitus, especially if you have a few blockers on defense. I think if you know your opponent is playing Ichorid, aggressively mulliganing into NO isn't a terrible idea.

evilgorrilaz

07-11-2010, 12:47 AM

The correct way to sbl against Painterstone is 4 Krosan Grip, 1 Terastodon and 1 Kozilek/Gaea's Blessing/Emrakul/Ulamog (Ula the best one there) it allows you to tap out and do whatever.

I respectfully have different experiences. I used to be a dredge player myself and it's fairly easy to win through some Wolf tokens. Dredge has a pretty big difference in skill level between players, maybe that's why your experience differs so much.

I agree that G1 is not good. But you do bring out 10 disenchant effects post board, which is more then most decks can do. There's not a single deck out there that has mass enchantment removal in the SB (disk, perhaps). Another thing is that you probably should board in GY hate as well I disagree that the MU is worse then I stated, you have a lot more tools to fight Enchantress then most decks and a card like Elephant Grass doesn't hurt you as much as for instance Goblins or Merfolk.

Priest enables the powerplays the deck can make. In some matchups this becomes important because you'll need to overwhelm your opponent. As well as casting NO's or alike. I think you're better off with Goblins or Merfolk if you're not into that.

I disagree with the whole skill level players in dredge. The guy I was playing was one of the best combo players on Team Unicorn. Despite me being a significantly worse player than he is, the deck just does a ton vs Ichorid. With messengers and WSS, you churn out so many dudes and lords that the zombies, ichorids, and grave trolls pale in comparison. Unless ichorid does some degenerate turn 3 10 zombies + FKZ or something, I find it really hard to lose the MU.

Enchantress is one of the decks that I don't playing priest, because you need to empty the hand and storm the enchantress player before the enchantress player hits turn 4 and can sterling grove/draw/tutor something like moat. While we do have a ton of disenchant effects, half of them are blanked by a single sterling grove. We do have a MUCH better MU against enchantress than say goblins, but by no means is it 50-50. Also, why the hell would you bring in GY hate vs a few replenish? That dilutes the elf count so much that essentially the only way to win is beat face with NO.

I do agree that priest is needed in some MU to power out something like 3 lords in a single turn to have lethal for next turn. Against decks that you need to win by turn 4 (primarily combo), having a cradle effect (cradle, archdruid, priest) is essential in racing them. Its also pretty good against Tabernacle. However, I just feel like the deck needs something else than a mana dork against the DTB. Right now agaisnt Zoo, I just want a card that helps stabilize. For the most part, I feel that the only way to really win vs Zoo is either them not burning out your mana dorks (which doesn't happen against good Zoo players for the most part) or resolving a super fast NO. I know the priest can do broken things (and i love having a Joraga warcaller with 20 counters on it), its just that the priest doesn't do it often enough for me.

Hawdes

07-11-2010, 01:44 AM

...
I do agree that priest is needed in some MU to power out something like 3 lords in a single turn to have lethal for next turn. Against decks that you need to win by turn 4 (primarily combo), having a cradle effect (cradle, archdruid, priest) is essential in racing them. Its also pretty good against Tabernacle. However, I just feel like the deck needs something else than a mana dork against the DTB. Right now agaisnt Zoo, I just want a card that helps stabilize. For the most part, I feel that the only way to really win vs Zoo is either them not burning out your mana dorks (which doesn't happen against good Zoo players for the most part) or resolving a super fast NO. I know the priest can do broken things (and i love having a Joraga warcaller with 20 counters on it), its just that the priest doesn't do it often enough for me.
...

It's not worth disputing the Zoo matchup because this decks performance against Zoo has already been debated in the thread, and the conclusion was that it's a even matchup, or 40/60 in favor of Zoo.
But thank you for actually confirming my previous statements that a Elf deck will often just sit there with mana dorks or whatever nonthreat against good Zoo players, and that it's the early NO that usually seals the deal.
In legacy it's hard to actually have mana dump cards that are actually playable. You should be glad to obtain 5-7 mana with a deck in legacy even if it's mana dorks, Cradles etc. What's the point in having more than 5 mana if you can't stick a card on the board with a sufficient threat level?

I can't more than agree with you that Zoo type decks (decks that have a very high aggression level along side with burn) are the hardest matchups any elfdeck can be paired against, and it's the same for all elf strategies. That's why cutting Priest of Titania is a good call in my opinion. Theoretically, a mana dork ain't a threat per say, but it ramps into threats, having x Llanowars y Fyndhorns and z Archdruids are quite enough.
I think that it is required to up the threat density in such a deck, not adding or holding on to that many mana producers... But that's just my conclusion from testing this deck and all other decks.

Someone has to come up with a solid idea on how to battle these decks. Most SB options have already been tested, from Absolute Law, Steely Resolve to Burrenton Forge-Tender. The only decent answer I've seen are the Wilt-Leaf inclusions (Cavalier and Liege), due to their big bodies that dodge most bolts, but those cards make other matchups worse.

evilgorrilaz

07-11-2010, 02:18 AM

But thank you for actually confirming my previous statements that a Elf deck will often just sit there with mana dorks or whatever nonthreat against good Zoo players, and that it's the early NO that usually seals the deal.

I agree about NO, disagree about sitting around with mana dorks. Zoo players realize that they have enough burn/removal and big dudes to ram through any decent amount of elf power. They fear the NO. Fear it fear it fear it. Zoo realizes that their dudes are big and buff enough to just smash through a small number of lords. Hence, the MU becomes extremely NO dependant. And the easiest way to keep an elf player off NO is to kill every mana dork they play.

Overall, I want a cheap mana dork that can survive bolt. Priest doesn't fill either of those roles. Sure if it sticks and you have elves, its insane. But how often does that come up agaisnt a deck packing essentially 16 removal spells(4 chain, 4 bolt, 3 path, 3 lavamancer)? As for cost, I would much rather prefer a 3rd kind of llanowar elf because on turn 2 i usually have access to around 2-3 mana. I want to cast multiple dudes to set-up for NO the next turn, and by turning a 2 casting card into a 1 casting card I have an easier time casting more dudes. Its also worth noting that priest requires 6 mana to NO it from hand if for instance the Zoo player gets a turn 1 lavamancer, while a 1 mana dork costs only 5.

I should also clarify that this applies to RGx decks only. Against most blue decks (CB/Top, Landstill, Blue lands, Merfolk) priest is still insane, because it often requires a force (yay CA) or one of like 4 removal spells, and if it sticks you spew out elves to no end.

Hawdes

07-11-2010, 03:38 AM

I agree about NO, disagree about sitting around with mana dorks. Zoo players realize that they have enough burn/removal and big dudes to ram through any decent amount of elf power. They fear the NO. Fear it fear it fear it. Zoo realizes that their dudes are big and buff enough to just smash through a small number of lords. Hence, the MU becomes extremely NO dependant. And the easiest way to keep an elf player off NO is to kill every mana dork they play.

Overall, I want a cheap mana dork that can survive bolt. Priest doesn't fill either of those roles. Sure if it sticks and you have elves, its insane. But how often does that come up agaisnt a deck packing essentially 16 removal spells(4 chain, 4 bolt, 3 path, 3 lavamancer)? As for cost, I would much rather prefer a 3rd kind of llanowar elf because on turn 2 i usually have access to around 2-3 mana. I want to cast multiple dudes to set-up for NO the next turn, and by turning a 2 casting card into a 1 casting card I have an easier time casting more dudes. Its also worth noting that priest requires 6 mana to NO it from hand if for instance the Zoo player gets a turn 1 lavamancer, while a 1 mana dork costs only 5.

I should also clarify that this applies to RGx decks only. Against most blue decks (CB/Top, Landstill, Blue lands, Merfolk) priest is still insane, because it often requires a force (yay CA) or one of like 4 removal spells, and if it sticks you spew out elves to no end.

I totally agree with you. NO is house against Zoo, but since we can only run 4 in the deck, no significant card draw or tutor effect, relying on 4 cards in the maindeck to win a match renders 56 cards "useless" (as a figure of speech). The odds of drawing and resolving a NO in the first 5 turns against Zoo are low. That's why it's necessary to make an effort to change the other cards in the deck to actaully beat these RGx decks, since they're rising in popularity. GW Maverick, GW survival, Zoo, New Horizons etc. popularity has risen, and my opinion is that Zoo is one of the best and most aggressive decks in legacy at the moment which easily can deal 12 damage by turn 2.
The mana dork that do survive all the bolts in the world for cmc1 would be priceless, but that won't ever get printed I believe.

I ran a build in 2009 that contained 12 cc1 mana dorks (Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Boreal) and ditched the priests to optimize t2 three mana for lords and other three drops. That deck did very well in testing and I came top18 in a Grand Prix qualifier in Gothenburg. But since the printing of Steppe lynx and the sorts, all these decks have the same problem...
I'm not saying that Mana dorks are bad, but you need something fast enough to sink your mana into that changes the board so drastically that the opponent should consider scooping. Back then my mana sink was Wren's Run Packmaster (Joraga wasn't printed and the format wasn't nearly as fast as it is today) and it worked pretty ok since at that time since Aggro loam, Stifle/Naught and big beats were very popular at that time in my meta (deathtouch was solid).

Priest of Titania is great against control decks packing blue, but you should care for the ever popular Spell Snare, I see it more than often now in my meta.

Tru3z3rox

07-12-2010, 01:22 PM

I think the mana sink you guys are referring to should be Joraga/A hard castable monster in the main. For instance I run 3 Joraga and 1 Terastodon in the main. Having terastodon has actually saved me against problem cards like moat, confinement, noetic scales (huge elves), ensnaring bridge, jitte, etc. It essentially gives you 5 cards (4 NO) in the main that can deal with problem noncreature perms.

@WRPackmaster
I would love her if she didn't champion a creature or at least pumped the wolves as well.

@2CC
I actually only run 6 cards at that slot (4 priest and 2 wss). I'm pretty happy with that because the rest of my creatures are huge threats (13 lords, 1 Terastodon, 4 Messengers, and 4 NOS). I used to run WRV (no pun intended) in the past, but found that I wish it did something else. Tribal synergy is key.

evilgorrilaz

07-19-2010, 02:31 PM

What do you guys think about switching the Ulamog in the SB for an Emrakul? Does the bigger flying superanhilator guy make up for losing the vindicate effect?

Nessaja

07-25-2010, 05:14 PM

Some tourney results:
3rd/4th from 35+ (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18343)
1st out of 18 (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5619043&postcount=1391)

And hawdes, I won against Zoo, again. I'm 12-3 in games against Zoo in tourneys so far. But I still recognize it's a 40/60 matchup. Which is just fine. Also, the only times opponents win is when they burn away my mana elves, so I can't cast Messenger/Natural Order. You seem to entirely misunderstand this matchup. The only games I have lost against Zoo so far was with Pyroclasm in the SB and Jitte.

evilgorrilaz

07-26-2010, 02:06 PM

Very nice reports nessaja!

I'm a little curious about your SB, why so much grave hate? Also, your wins against Zoo were pretty ungodly. 3 dudes available for NO on turn 3 every time.

Nessaja

07-26-2010, 06:04 PM

Because you got about 8 spots left, you can either choose to deal with combo, or graveyard based decks (dredge mostly), I wasn't epecting combo so I went for the graveyard package, partly because I really like the Relic of Progenitus as well, good in so many MU's. Irony.. I didn't win against Dregdge, turn 1 wins are hard to deal with.

While it's true I won the Zoo matches with good hands (g3 with a very good hand) especially G3 I would've won even if I drew a Progenitus, once you got the mana production down Zoo has a hard time keeping up.

Another report from Tru3z3rox 2nd out of 22 updated into the primer.

lebarion

07-27-2010, 08:19 AM

What's your opinion regarding Viridian Zealot versus Viridian Shaman?

I'm using Zealot so far, because I feel good knowing that I have a maindeck answer for Moat, Solitary Confinement, and so on. However, these enchantments are pretty rare where I play.
Vials and Jittes, on the other side, are very common, and I've found myself a couple times having only 2 or 3 mana available agains an active Jitte, making Zealot useless. Besides, I can recurr Shaman with Symbiote, while Zealot is a one-shot.

Do you feel maindeck enchantment hate is needed? Why/Why not?

Thanks!

Infinitium

07-27-2010, 09:02 AM

Nessaja

07-27-2010, 04:36 PM

Added some more results. Since The 5th of July there have been 10 reports from which 9 top 8. Considering only very few people play this deck I'm pretty amazed at that.

levarion - I'm playing maindeck enchantment hate in the form of terastodon. When you're going to add a one-off for Natural Order, you might as well make it a good one. Is it needed... depends entirely on how comfortable you are with giving up matchups you could otherwise potentially win. Good thing about Terastodon is that he also gets you out of other locks like Glacial Chasm or Solitary Confinement.

TossUsToLions

07-29-2010, 03:21 PM

So here is the list im taking to GP this weekend:

3x Wasteland
14x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle

4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus

4x Wren's Run Vanquisher
4x Elvish Archdruid
3x Elvish Champion
4x Imperious Perfect
4x Quirion Ranger
2x Wolf-Skull Shaman
4x Sylvan Messenger
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Priest Of Titania
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Sylvan Messenger

Sideboard
4x Krosan Grip
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Terastodon
5x Open

I'm pretty set on the main deck (unless anyone has any ideas of how to fit in a joraga warcaller). But i need some help on the SB. So far i only have 10 cards and i need 5 more. Is 5 cards enough GY hate? Is the rise of landstill/enchantress/thopter combo for real and should i pack extra hate (back to nature, viridian zealot, etc)? Is it just me or does The Epic Storm seem to be making a comeback? Should i play thorn of amethyst/mindbreak trap/chalice of the void?
Thanks in advance for the help.

Nessaja

07-29-2010, 04:30 PM

If you're using the WRV as a Wall that takes a target with it then Thornweald Archer is a much better option, consider that it deals with flying cards which still can potentially be a problem. WRV is strong against Bant type of decks that don't deploy a lot of creatures. A 1vs1 trade actually matters here. Bant colored decks are typically the strongest matchup you can get as Elves, as such, you don't really need WRV. I personally dropped WRV a long time ago (pretty much when Dreadnought was on the decline) and never looked back.

But lets move to agruments

WRV
3/3
Only passive synergies with other elves (it doesn't add anything)
Trades 1 vs 1 against nearly all playable legacy creatures
Nearly uncastable as a topdeck
Dictates your playing order

The upside, that it trades 1vs1 against all creatures is so entirely neglectable when you have a deck that wins by means of swarming your opponent. A WSS that stays alive: creates 4 power and toughness every three turns, a WRV just sits there being a 3/3 it doesn't help the rest of your deck in any way. It's not great under a standstill, it's not good after a sweeper and it's not an amazing topdeck. Against Zoo it trades with their 1 drop or 2 drop, netting you no real tempo gain. Atleast WSS usually leaves a wolf behind after being removed, and lots of NO fodder.

Concerning your sideboard. You need to make a meta call and predict what you will be facing most. The meta is wide open and there's no data on what decks are currently dominating at all. 5 GY hate is enough against decks that aren't named Ichorid. If you're preparing for Lands and ***** decks then 5 cards is probably 2 too much.

If you fear combo then you'll need to spend all your leftover spots for just that matchup. Against TES board in your GY hate so you can force them to go off with Diminishing Returns. But even so, the most important thing is that you can field an army big enough to deal with ~20 Goblins.

There's still a lot of other combo out there in the form of Dream Halls and Show & Tell decks, you can't deal with those decks with just Thorns (grip against Dream Halls). But there's also Enchantress which requires Back to Nature or a similar effect, which you won't have place for.

(nameless one)

07-30-2010, 08:35 AM

For meta, I predict a lot of board control decks (such as Enchantress, Staxx, Rock, and Landstill)

I think 4 gravehate cards is a good number. Although, I'll try to spread my gravehate out (like playing Leyline of the Voids and Faerie Macabre)

Dont be too worried against other aggro decks because we can actually race both Zoo and Goblins (especially if you have NOGenitus combo)

Thorn of Amethyst is a good call against combo.

Speaking of other sideboard slots and board control decks, try fitting Winter Orb on your side. You should have enough mana sources outside of lands, you could definitely survive an active Winter Orb. A lot of decks out there cannot. Its also a good sideboard card against Goblin and other mana-hungry decks.

Tru3z3rox

07-30-2010, 02:51 PM

Remember that with the exception of Chalice, most artifacts can be played through or around whereas there's a lot of Enchantments that simply invalidates aggressive plans and see common maindeck play. Jitte and other equipment especially are easily negated by bouncing the blocker with Wirewood Symbiote prior to combat damage. I'd stick with Zealot unless you've got a smattering of Affinity and/or Stax running rampant in your meta.

Agreed with Nessaja. Terastodon is the only main deck answer you'll need. Whether you NO into him or hard cast him he blows up 3 problem cards or blows up your own excess lands for extra creatures. Grips and a reverent silence in the side.

Tru3z3rox

07-30-2010, 02:53 PM

bakofried

08-05-2010, 02:59 AM

Hey Nessaja, I was wondering what your current list was. I'm fond of Joraga Warcaller; but you seem to have had a lot of success with Tribal Forcemage. I'm curious.

danyul

08-05-2010, 03:08 AM

What do you guys think about fitting in 4 Survival and 4 Vengevine? Am I being greedy or does that idea mean I might as well play Survival Elves? I just saw the list from the Grand Prix Top 8 and that UG Madness + Survival deck looked pretty nifty. Would stealing that engine even make the deck better? Or is that too unfocused?

Nessaja

08-05-2010, 06:42 PM

God no. We can do much better then that when you resolve survival.

I doubt it even has a place in Elf Survival. It's good in a shell with both Survival and other discard outlets (Mongoose, Aquamoeba), without it's just subpar. Don't venture there.

@bakofried - my current list is somewhere close to the last tournament report I posted. Except I'm hardcore testing 2 Fauna Shaman in favor of 3 WSS, the first time in my life I'm playing a deck with 60 cards instead of 61 (lucky number..) but it seems to be working. Fauna Shaman might not be better but it shows promising results.

And yes, Tribal Forcemage all the way. I'm extremely happy with that card mostly because it gives a form of unblockability that works wonders against non-forest decks.

bakofried

08-07-2010, 09:09 PM

So, if i'm not mistaken, then this is something close to your current list?

4 Wasteland
2 Gaea's Cradle
14 Forest
4 L. Elves
4 F. Elves
4 Priest
4 Archdruid
4 Champion
4 Perfect
4 Messenger
4 WSS
3 Q. Ranger
1 Prog.
1 Forcemage
4 NO

Of course, that's abbreviated because it's directed at you. Once I get some Fauna Shamans, I'm thinking I might do some testing of my own. What i'm looking forward to most is a discard outlet when you topdeck a NO target.

bakofried

08-30-2010, 12:59 AM

Hey, no one has replied to the thread in a while. I had a few questions/discussion topics.
1. 16-lord merfolk is giving me a hard time. (mostly CCommander)
2. How is Fauna Shaman in testing?
3. What should you have in the board to deal with blue decks?

Aadz0r

09-01-2010, 10:46 AM

@bakofried
1: In my playtesting with the deck, Merfolk shouldn't really be a problem. But if your having trouble against the commander, you could try to play Jagged-Scar Archers. He can deal with Tombstalkers or other big flyers too.
2: In my opinion Fauna Shaman isn't worth the slots. I have found that the shaman is about the first creature to get destroyed, so Whenever she does stick, you are probably already winning anyhow. The only real use i've had for her was to sometimes discard my Progenitus, which is not nearly enough to keep her MB.
3: This depends on what kind of blue deck you're facing... Choke and Tsunami seem like the obvious choices though;)

bakofried

09-01-2010, 01:53 PM

I don't know. If they remove it before it has a chance to untap, doesn't that mean it's really good? I mean, the same happens with Goblin Lackey most of the time, but you don't see any goblin list abdicating Lackey because of it.

Mom

09-05-2010, 11:36 AM

Whenever I played Fauna Shaman, she always seemed a little too slow.
With the mana that I invest into it, I would always much rather play more lords or other spells
that immediately further my board. With Fauna Shaman, you're required to wait a turn and spend
a net total of 3 mana before you can reap any of her benefits. In this time span that she takes
to activate, Fauna Shaman is especially fragile to removal.

Your argument with Goblin Lackey is partially true. But there is a small difference in the fact that lackey costs only 1 to play
while Fauna Shaman costs 2. Lackey trades tempo easily with the most commonly played
removal spells, swords to plowshare and lightning bolt. However, we lose tempo whenever a
Shaman is removed this way.

When she does stick, Fauna Shaman takes time for her to live up to her potential. In
a situation where you are out creatured, a token generating engine like wolf skull shaman would be
much more useful. In a situation where she does shine, I find that the board is usually already in a winning
position. There just haven't been many games for me where her presence helped to change the tide of the
battle.

Alexeezay

09-30-2010, 04:33 PM

fauna shaman < Wolf-Skull Shaman is card advantage and synergetical with NO and good against E.Plagues and stuff.

the new Scars of Mirrodin Legend Ezuri, Renegade Leader is sick!needs a priest,cradle or archdruid mostly. 1 activation for the kill is enough most of the times. you can also race/defend yourself against merfolk,zoo,goblins etc together with Copperhorn Scout(untaps all after your attack,next turn overrun again with priest/archdruid so he can't get through). the instant speed overrun is very useful with stuff like copperhorn/symbiote/quirion ranger. Im definitely gonna try out those 2 new elves :)

Mom

10-01-2010, 03:46 AM

Definitely looking forward to Ezuri :], though not sure about the scout.
Vigilance for a turn probably isn't worth sacrificing a creature slot considering
it competes with all the other great cards we already have access to.

Hawdes

10-01-2010, 04:32 AM

Nessaja

10-01-2010, 05:26 AM

The scout almost certainly doesn't deserve a spot in the deck. If you figure out what to take out for it, then be my guest. But it just doesn't quite work that way.

As for Fauna Shaman it's a card that has the potential to be extremely powerful. Fetching a Tribal Forcemage or a Messenger are both extremely strong plays. Only thing is; it's extremely slow when you're in a losing position. It's potent when you're in a decent position though. And if your opponent isn't disrupting your plan it's a card that gets totally out of hand much moreso then WSS. Against a couple of decks that aim for a midgame (Elves sort of do as well) this card can push you over them because it makes the midgame so strong.
But Elves really don't want to be in the midgame against the majority of decks. Or have trouble getting there with Fauna Shaman.

The deck in its current state would need an entire work-over for it though. The problem with it is that it isn't a two drop, unlike WSS. The tempo and CA that WSS gives is far greater then Fauna Shaman. I just can't miss 1 mana on turn 3 without losing major tempo. So atleast one turn it'll be just a grizzly bear whereas WSS is already 2 grizzly bears at that point. T4 you might get an optional use out of Fauna Shaman which requires tapping it while WSS can attack with 2 grizzly bears and create another bear. It's not even certain that you can cast the thing you tutored for.

I've been running Elvish Visionary instead of WSS lately and I got no real complaints about it. I've also `permanently`switched to 3 Arbor Elves and I've dropped 1 Tribal Forcemage for Ezuri, Renegade Leader.

Some things about the meta, aggro control with combo finish seems to be the hype of the day. it's everywhere. Lots of Survival with an Iona finish, or countertop with NO prog, show&tell+sneak attack or painterstone, vengevine survial. AKA, the decks that you play aggro against.
Against control you can go either way and I'm still not sure which route is the most effective. This means that we want our deck to be faster, combo finishes are hard to stop.

Arbor Elf vs Quirion Ranger I've argued before. Bottomline, there are a lot of hands that can be made/broken by a mana elf, and with Arbor Elf you're a turn faster. Today I had several occasions but for instance Arbor Elf/Archdruid/Archdruid/Champion/Wasteland/Wasteland/Forest is an amazing hand with Arbor Elf, while it would be really mediocre and slow with Quirion Ranger. While it's true that on turn 4 you'll probably go nuts with this hand with ranger, but you already bash for 16 on turn 4 with an Arbor Elf while wasting a land on turn 3 alongside. I'm currently in the Arbor Elf camp even though Quirion Ranger is one of my favorite cards ever printed; and I actually don't like Arbor Elf all that much (ugly art..).

Then the last change is Elvish Visionary vs Wolf-Skull Shaman (or even Fauna Shaman). WSS and FS are awesome, but both don't support the whole "action at turn 4". Like I said, we got a lot of power cards in the deck, drawing those cards faster could potentially be stronger the chance of a 2/2 every turn.
Now in all honesty, that's a change I'm least sure off. It was made to speed the deck up and it has been doing that for sure, drawing into an extra lord can really make the difference. Or even a Natural Order/ Sideboard card.

Lastly: Ezuri. I think the powerlevel of the card is in the right place. 5 mana is rough, but not undoable. It being repeatable is usually not relevant, but it doesn't hurt. I once had a Visionary a Priest and Ezuri in play along with two lands I was still attacking with a 4/4 and a 5/5. Not enough to kill at once, but still a serious clock. While 5 mana is managable, one could argue that Joraga Warcaller can potentially be better at this spot. While true, Warcaller sucks to get off a Natural Order and Ezuri can finish the game instantly more easily. It's a card to watch for sure.

I think the sideboard is a bit outdated with all the new decks emerging. I'm not sure what to do with it just. I've just been noticing that it isn't exactly tailored to the current metagame. If people are really happy with their SB's in the current meta I'd be interested to see it.

Alexeezay

10-01-2010, 05:57 AM

aggreed with everything nessaja. just wanted to mention that Copperhorn Scout can be better than Quirion Ranger in many situations..I will test it in tournament tomorrow...but quirion ranger will still be superior i guess.

Mom

10-01-2010, 02:52 PM

@Hawdes

Yes, I completely agree. Shaman CAN be an amazing card and
I really wish it could've been adapted into the shell of NO elves.

@Nessaja

I remember that on the salvation thread, you were considering replacing cradles
with mutavaults. How is the replacement testing out for you?

Tru3z3rox

10-25-2010, 03:30 AM

I just took Elves to a tournament. I took 4th place out of around 40.

Round 1: Blue Control/Leyline of Anticipation/Emrakul/High Tide
I play against a control deck, so I start out aggressive. Game 1 I land turn 3 NO-->Prog and he can't deal with it.

Game 2 I start slow and walk right into control on my priest with no turn 1 mana dork. Proceeds to chain standstills and then lock me out with Jace.

Game 3 I manage a slow hand as well, but I get progenitus resolved. I take it, but he makes a play mistake with Emrakul a turn earlier.

(2-1)

Round 2: Dragon Stompy
Game 1 he starts with Chalice at 1 and 0. Brutal since I have 2 mana dorks. Turn 2 I play priest and turn 3 I play NO--->Prog...win

Game 2 He locks me out early game with trinisphere and drops magus of the moon/jitte.

Game 3 He plays firespout turn 2. He finds jitte again and I'm toast.

(1-2)

Round 3: Reanimator

Ugh...Game 1 he keeps a hand with no land but iona and reanimate. Discards Iona, finds his land. I race him to 3 life (Only time I wish I had more tribal forcemages). Then I lose.

Game 2 I beat him down way faster than he can find any entombs or reanimates. I get him to 7 life and breath easier, because he cannot reanimate anymore. Win.

Game 3 I beat down a bit slower. I overextend into LIVING DEATH. I know, right? Awesome play even though it was a move of desperation (he had nothing in his grave). I beat down with 2 lords while holding a faerie macabre in hand.

(2-1)

Round 4:Zoo

Game 1 he burns off most of my creatures until I hit 4 mana and NO--->Prog. Scoop.

Game 2 he boards in Teeg for my NOs. Fine...I messenger into absurb CA instead and overwhelm him with forestwalkers.

Round 5: Burn

Probably one of my scarier matches. Game 1 I hit Prog early and he took it for me with elves as chump blockers.

Game 2 I race him. I was at 1 life when prog swung for the win. He topdecks a lavamancer when it just needed to be a burn. I got lucky here.

(2-0)

Round 6: Survival Madness

We decide to draw and hope that our breakers push us into top 8. We both end up there, but decide to play it out without boarding anyway.

I play and get crushed both games. He survivals wonder and 4 vengevines swing above my head and above prog game 2.

Top 8 consisted of almost all tribal decks:
Knights
Goblins
Elves
4 Merfolk
1 Vengevine Survival

Round 1: U/W Merfolk
Game one I risk the NO---> Prog with barely any board presence and it pays off...no counter. Win

Game 2 I'm overwhelmed by Jitte.

Game 3 I swarm the board with lords and joraga as protection as Prog beats.

(2-1)

Round 2 (Semifinals): U/R Merfolk

Game 1 I'm burned out and kept of mana dorks (have 1 land). By the time I stabilize it is over.

Game 2 I land Prog and swing for a win.

Game 3 He burns off most of my dudes and I sit there helpless. Mutavaults for the win.

Breakdown was as follows:
1st/2nd Vengevine/U/R Merfolk
3rd Goblins
4th Elves (me)

(Don't remember the rest of top 8, but it was basically merfolk of various colors)

Overall I didn't once use Ezuri. NO--->Prog won me tons of games and I didn't need Terastodon much today. I'm happy with my 2 Volcanic Islands. I also got many remarks on how scary Joraga is. Jittes is not as scary for me since I've been running him. He can easily get our elves out of Jitte range and I've done it many times for the win when I otherwise would have lost.

Alexeezay

10-25-2010, 08:09 AM

Tru3z3rox can you post your deck list please? NO Elves is my pet deck so I'm really interested.

otherside

10-25-2010, 09:09 PM

In response to nessaja talking about ezuri being a possible joraga warcaller replacement. What about Garruk in that spot?

Mom

10-25-2010, 10:21 PM

Garruk's nice, but he's an entire mana more, can't be drawn by messenger, and 70% of the time, a turn slower for overrun compared to Ezuri. As a side bonus, Ezuri is NOable.

Tru3z3rox

10-25-2010, 11:30 PM

Tru3z3rox can you post your deck list please? NO Elves is my pet deck so I'm really interested.

My list is typical, but here it goes:

Land:
13 Forest
3 Wasteland
2 Gaea's Cradle

Sorcery:
4 Natural Order

Creatures:
4 Llanowar Elf
4 Fyndhorn Elf
2 Arbor Elf
3 Joraga Warcaller
4 Elvish Archdruid
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Elvish Visionary
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon
4 Priest of Titania

Tru3z3rox

10-25-2010, 11:31 PM

In response to nessaja talking about ezuri being a possible joraga warcaller replacement. What about Garruk in that spot?

Ezuri is not a Joraga replacement. Ezuri is a Tribal Forcemage replacement.

Alexeezay

10-26-2010, 08:18 AM

Tru3z3rox

10-26-2010, 02:27 PM

good list tru3z3rox. I like that you excluded ESG and Wolf-Skull Shaman because I always couldn't decide wether I play ESG or WSS...the best solution is to not run any of those :D I will try the elvish visionairies and joraga warcallers at the next tourney..
is it only bad luck that I draw Progenitus very often? I really hate this, but dont have a discard outlet like survival/fauna shaman.. so would fauna shaman be a replacement for elvish visionairy?

Could be, but I don't like Fauna as she is a bit slow and doesn't have immediate board impact. If I draw progenitus then I don't NO or NO into something else. That is why I run Terastodon in my main. He is a good mainboard answer to many issues for us.

Alexeezay

10-26-2010, 02:36 PM

yea, should be the best solution :)
recently a 1-off eladamri worked good in the mb.

Tru3z3rox

10-26-2010, 02:39 PM

yea, should be the best solution :)
recently a 1-off eladamri worked good in the mb.

Of course. And you can easily HARDCAST Terastodon. I've done it before. :D

GoldenCid

12-05-2010, 07:05 PM

Hi!!! I'm a bit new to the deck an di have a question:

Is it possible run NO together with Glimpse of nature?? Or it's just better run one or another??

(nameless one)

12-06-2010, 01:25 AM

Hi!!! I'm a bit new to the deck an di have a question:

Is it possible run NO together with Glimpse of nature?? Or it's just better run one or another??

I believe the thread you're looking for is Combo Elves.

sayuri87

12-23-2010, 08:52 AM

Hi magic players!!!!

This is my new legacy's deck,that deck placed in the 2nd place of a trial in mws and i want to know your thoughts about it.

The deck list is this:

* 2 Gaea's Cradle

* 4 Wasteland

* 2 Misty rainforest

* 4 Wooded foothills

* 1 Dryad arbor

* 1 Pendelhaven

* 6 Forest

* 1 Progenitus

* 4 Llanowar elves

* 4 Natural order

*4 Wren's run vanquisher

* 4 Fyndhorn elves

* 4 Elvish champion

* 2 Talara's battalion

* 3 Winter orb

* 4 Elvish archidruid

* 4 Imperious perfect

* 3 Quirion ranger

* 4 Thorn of amethyst

SB:

* 4 relic of progenitus

* 2 viridian zealot

* 3 Caller of the claw

* 2 pithing needle

* 3 krosan grip

* 1 gaea's blessing

But now the survival is banned, i dont know how the metagame will be in the next weeks,my boyfriend thought to quit :

- 4 wasteland

- 4 thorn of amethyst

- 3 winter orb

and put in

+ 2 umezawa's jitte

+ 2 forest

+ 4 skyshroud elite

+ 2 mutavault

+ 1 chameleon colossus

And a merry xmas for all
ciao ciao

Arjerei

12-23-2010, 07:23 PM

As i said darling, and after testing some, id rather second option for the reason it gives chances against any deck (combo exception), on the first version u'd have the problem of eating thorns and winters against aggresive and some aggrocontrol decks, and these cards are not a quarantee against decks that seems to be effective as boarded control decks, combo or just control decks, for all these reasons, skyshroud + jittes wouldnt be a bad option, about chameleon colossus im in doubt...

Kisses sweety :P

sayuri87

12-23-2010, 07:36 PM

cefe,the thorn and winter are died slots against aggro,maybe the winter not much at all against aggro for that of tap the lands,but that also for me is a little fuck if i havent a gaea`s cradle at the game,but the thron yeah xD

abel_lg

01-03-2011, 10:08 AM

Cutting the Wastelands in Legacy is not a great idea... Altough Elves works well without it, sometimes there are like life insurances... Also Skyshroud Elite it's more suitable in other type of decks. Thorns and Winter Orbs go into the SB.

I will point to Wirewood Symbiote as helping us, not also against spot removal, yet also to able us to play twice a Visionary like in Combo Elves and maybe draw the card we are looking for. Having Natural Order... Will be enough with one Terastodon? I mean: sometimes a singletone Viridian Shaman or Viridian Zealot will be enough and we can left Terastodon as a "backup" plan.

Nessaja

03-28-2011, 02:59 AM

Please don't discuss such significantly different decks. There are a lot of topics on SGC where discussion about different lists is possible.

NO Elves T8'd yesterday at SGC LA, gg Wil.

kinda

05-02-2011, 05:50 PM

So I really like this deck but I feel as though elf beat down should be reserved as a last resort. Elves aren't as devastating as goblins and aren't good versus combo like merfolk...but...the elves do a great job of supporting combos and 24 elves+4 Gsz (and to a lesser extent 3 vengevines) do a decent job of beatdown. Gaddock teeg is anti-synergistic but it's the only way to have a chance against turn 1 underground sea.

2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Forest
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor

// Elves 24
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Survival Elf
4 Elvish Champion
3 Imperious Perfect
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Ezuri, Renegage Leader

// Other 20
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
3 buried alive
3 vengevine
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Mental Misstep

Sideboard:
3 Leyline of Sanctity (combo)
3 Duress (combo/firespout/e-plague/moat/humility/natural order etc...)
1 Dauntless Escort (wrath effects)
2 Mind Harness (comes in for zealot/gaddock vs. zoo/goblins...there's probably a better card)
1 Loaming Shaman (Grave based decks)
2 Relic (Gave decks)
3 Krosan Grip

Nessaja

05-02-2011, 06:08 PM

No offense, but that has nothing to do with this deck. I also sort of disagree with everything you said, and your list.... I really don't want to comment on.

Perhaps you're better off making another topic?

==========================================================

I got second place a few weeks ago in a small tourney.

Alright! Today I played a tournament in Utrecht. It's a qualifyer for the Dutch Legacy masters and the winner would get two byes for that tournament. Expected meta for me was combo and dredge with virtually no control decks at all.

More precise: 2 High Tide Combo, 1 Painter Combo, 2-3 ANT, 2 Doomsday,2 Merfolks, 2 Zoo, 1 Goblins, 3 The Rock/Dark Horizons, 2 Dredge was practically the entire meta. Lots of people playing the same deck.

My deck:
Maindeck:
Creatures
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Champion
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Sylvan Messenger
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon

Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

Lands
14 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Null Rod
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Dauntless Escort
2 Nature's Claim
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Virdian Zealot

R1 Tobie with Merfolk
Me and Tobie travelled together, I know his deck he knows mine.
G1 this is actually pretty fuzzy, I know he spends a FoW on my archdruid I gather an army as I have like 5 lords and overwhelm him ecventually.

I board in 2 claims and zealot for 2 NO and Tera.

G2 he gets T1 nothing, T2 coralhelm T3 standstill vs priest and fyndhorn. I need to crack standstill to play a champion, he draws and OKs my champ. His turn he plays and equips jitte, I choose to not block to survive longer. Turn after he Force of Wills my spell and then plays another standstill, into another. I draw zealot eventually but its too little too late.

I reverse my boarding plan.

G3 This game I get Llanowar Elves, Elvish Archdruid which he FoWs then I Natural Order for Progenitus and he has no answer, easy sailing.

M2 Jamie with ANT
I played Jamie at the nationals last year, he played Landstill.
G1 he wins, even though I got a T4 win, ANT wins T3 easy.

Board in all my hate, including the Ravenous Trap. Boarding out 4 Sylvan Messenger, 2 NO, Prog 3 Elvish Champion (I think...?)

G2 I mull and stay with Mindbreak Trap, Thorn of Amethyst and some mana elves, but also Gaddock Teeg in hand. Its a slow game, I dont attack for a lot. He eventually Chain of Vapor the thorn and goes off, I show the Trap and its over.

G3 I got a hand of 2* Wasteland Null Rod Mindbreak Trap Imperious Perfect and GSZ, I keep. I lay everything down while hes pondering and alike, I draw a forest T3 so I can GSZ for Gaddock Teeg, I then drop perfect as well and his life goes down steadily, he Chains Teeg eventually and has a hand left of petals and LEDs with tutor.. That wont work :)

M3 Balthasar with GW Aggro
G1 I feel confidant this matchup, he keeps putting me on combo elves, I win by overruning with 3 lords while he just has a Umezawa's Jitte Ethersworn Cannonist and two Stoneforge Mystic.

G2 I board out some things for Viridian Zealot and Nature's Claim, probably Sylvan Messenger and Quirion Ranger. He gets a start with Qasali Pridemage and Jitte, T3 which just kills everything.

G3 goes back and forth, he has more creatures then me, I get a Dryad Arbor and Quirion Ranger to stall, then he has 2*Tarmogoyf Pridemage vs Ranger Priest of Titania Llanowar, Im on 18 life due to swords on lords, in my draw phase after my draw he paths my ranger, after searching for a land I draw while I already did unintentionally, it was an NO. He doesnt mind and wants to play on but everyone advices him to call a judge who rules to shuffle, rightfully so I guess but the NO wouldve 100 percent won me the game.

Losing sucks, oh well going on.

M4 Gijs with Dredge
My archenemy. Game 1 I mull to 4 which has land llanowar, he does a breakthrough with a dredger in the GY which doesnt get anything, I take my time and beat him down slowly with priest champ and llanowar. Then eventually when hes on 9 I NO for prog and we forget to remove his bridges, a bystander notices which wins me the game because he dredges up a bridge and a dread return which wouldve given him 20 dmg.

I board in Gaddock Teeg and Ravenous Trap.

G2 I dont draw hate and dont want to mull for it, he wins turn 2 by Firestorming Dryad Arbor Priest of Titania and Llanowar Elves and then dredging 5 times turn 3.

G3 I drop my hand and start beating, I got Ravenous Trap in my hand. He therapies for an NO and knows he needs to get crazy dredges and get crazy dredges again after the removal of his GY, not an easy task. I win this by slow beatdown T5.

M5 Chris with the Rock
G1 he likes his chances, I like mine. He drops some Tarmogoyfs which are both 0/1 I drop t4 prog and he has to scoop.

G2 he takes a risk by keeping a 1 lander with GSZ for arbor, I got a slow hand with a lot of lands. He thoughtseizes my NO. After 3 turns he still didnt draw any lands while I get a Perfect and a Champ down, he plays two Duress but I only got creatures, the finishing blow is a Wasteland on his Bayou followed by an NO for prog which he cant answer.

In retrospect, he kept this 1 lander because he wouldve had a turn 2 Engineered Plague had he drawn a land.

Top 4: The Rock, Zoo, Merfolk

M6 Alexandru with Zoo
G1 I win the diceroll and have a lot of mana production with NO. He doesnt burn my fyndhorn, and casts a Loam Lion T2 I got llanowar elves fyndhorn elves two forest and dryad arbor with 1 land on hand and NO. He drops a Tarmogoyf, I drop Progenitus wins the game.
G2 he keeps my elves under control, beating with Qasali Pridemage while burning everything I have with Lightning Bolt, I got 2 Natural Orders in hand 3 forests a dryad arbor and a gaea's cradle. I tap all forests and Arbor to NO into Terastodon, then I tap cradle for 4 to NO for Progenitus while Im on 5 life. An Elvish Champion joins the board and another to win it. He doesnt draw burn.

Finals Adrian with Merfolk.
G1 I win the die roll and keep a really slow hand with 3 lands, NO and 3 lords. He has the perfect curve and kills me in the air.

G2 I get an identical hand to G1, I mull and get a good curve, he Force of Will's two lords and I finish with NO.

G3 we both mull, I had a slow hand again. I mull into anoter slow hand with lands and cant really take the risk to mull in a no lander. He gets a normal hand that kills me in the air similar to G1.

Had I drawn any of my 1 drops G3 wouldve been better, but no luck here.

I go home with a Plateau, not bad. Shouldve won the finals.

FUN FACT
Board: Quirion Ranger, Dryad Arbor Forest, how much mana can you generate, 3? 4 mana! I just realized this today, Quirion Ranger doesn't require an Elf to be untapped. Quirion Ranger and Dryad Arbor nullifying Jitte was fun too.

I know I don't play a lot of tournaments, but every tournament I've played I've reported. Consider that I've never done bad with this deck and always reached the top; people are seriously underestimating this deck.
]

catmint

05-08-2011, 02:07 PM

Hi,

I usually play combo elves and I would like to find out how powerful NO elves is.

I have a question:
Have you considered running 4 Thorn of Amethyst main deck?
As far as I understood the plan is to gain an advantage with manalords and gradle while disturbing with wastelands. It sounds like it is not enough because the elf-beatdown or cast of NO is a pretty slow kill and Thorn would help us versus all kind of faster decks (combo, but also show and tell or burn). That NO and GSz are more expensive should not hurt us...
Of course sylvan messenger would be probably not playable then...

Maëlig

05-25-2011, 01:52 PM

I like the deck a lot, I've been looking for a strong (non-combo) aggro elves deck for a while, and I think this might be it. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from my limited testing experience what the deck seems to have problem with is combo (in all its forms), heavy board control decks (packing firespout, perish and the like) and to a lesser extent tempo decks with lots of removal and capable of countering NO (tempo thresh notably). I'm wondering if some additional MD disruption could actually help shore up our chances in these MUs without harming us too much against other decks. I've identified 3 possible plans, ordered my how much change in the list they require (I took for reference Nessaja's last list which seems pretty standard and solid).

Option 1 : rishadan port
We already play wasteland, so we could take the exemple of goblins and give more importance to mana denial in the deck.
Proposed changes : +3 port -1 gaea's cradle -2 forest
Positive aspects : Virtually painless since we still run 24 initial sources of green (12 forest and 12 llanowar elves), lets you deny mana in the first turns and still use the land to cast NO, especially good vs heavy board control
Downsides : Useless vs combo, meh vs tempo (although denying TT of green in the main phases or TA of double B can be nice).

Option 2 : mental misstep
Yeah I know, everyone jumps on the bandwagon nowadays, it's just a fashion thing. There are serious reasons to consider the card here though, imo.
Proposed changes : +4 MM, -1 fyndhorn elves -1 elvish champion -1 quirion ranger -1 priest of titania
Positive aspects : Great against spot removal (swords, path, bolt, chain, demise), gives us a (small) chance vs storm combo, decent vs 1st turn discard, generally fits the tempo approach of the deck (even just countering a hierarch might be decisive).
Downsides : Dilutes the deck, makes horrible topdecks, makes messenger worse (I would strongly advise running at least 1 symbiote in the deck though, so that you can recur messenger, making this less of a problem).

Option 3 : splash for discard
This requires substantial changes to the list, possibly transforming it altogether into another deck. But it might be worth it.
Proposed changes : + 7 fetches +4 bayou +4 thoughtseize +4 cabal therapy +1 elves of deep shadow (zenith target) +1 elvish visionary (zenith target, remember I play symbiote and obv therapy) -4 wasteland -1 gaea's cradle -6 forest -3 fyndhorn elves -1 elvish champion -4 messenger -1 quirion ranger -1 terastodon
Positive aspects : Much easier to dodge counters and removal, gets you valuable information to adapt your game plan (the deck has quite a few options so that's always nice), gets rid of gamebeaking cards in advance (humility, firespout, perish, ...), gives you a pretty good chance vs most combo decks (all but ichorid I guess), gets rid of progenitus in your hand when you have NO (this + the fact that you can preemptively deal with anoying permanents is why I cut terastodon), helps tremendously to resolve NO, therapy is really synergic with the rest of the deck (fetchable dryad, imperious' tokens, lots of creatures).
Downsides : The biggie imo is that you lose messenger which isn't that good anymore with 38 non-elf cards. This plus the fact that diluting the deck makes priests and lords relatively worse means you rely a lot more on NO, which might be dangerous even though you now have means to protect it.

Oh, and please don't bash me with the usual "you didn't understand anything about the deck, open another thread" BS, it's just an idea. :wink:

Koby

05-25-2011, 02:13 PM

I've ran into similar issues with other variants of Elves before. I'll address each in turn.

1) Fast(er) combo
Useful cards main/side
* Thorn of Amethysts
* Silence/Orim's Chant
* Black discard
* Mindbreak Trap
* Elvish Spirit Guide (to become faster)

Two of the options require a splash to become effective. Thorns + Trap work well considering that most of the spells are creatures, and we usually have enough mana to cast Trap through Thorns. ESG helps here to cast Thorns on turn 1 if need be to keep on pace against acceleration.

2) Sweepers (Perish, Firespout, Pernicious Deed, Wrath, etc)
The best option I've found to combat this is to shift the focus from tribal swarm to recurring threats. Vengevine and Masked Admirers help with this respect, and pair extremely well with Fauna Shaman. Using this might necessitate a reworking of the maindeck to shoefly Fauna Shaman in, but I think the benefits far outweigh the risks.

The alternative is to play conservatively with Wirewood Symbiote and recycle Elvish Visionaries to keep the card advantage flowing. Joraga Warcaller helps here too, as it provides a large boost with minimal cards.

3) Tempo
This is arguably the hardest of the strategies to beat with linear thinking. There are a variety of ways they can attack us, including Grim Lavamancer backed up with Goyf and counters. This is not a pretty matchup in any respect. Natural Order helps here, in getting a threat that's impossible to deal with. Resolving NO is a different matter all together. Perhaps careful baiting of spells and a close eye on tempo is the best way to approach this matchup. An alternative is similar to #2, by bringing in Vengevines to provide recurring threats that are hard to remove.

On a positive note, a NO-Elves list has placed 2nd in a 45-person tournament here in Los Angeles last weekend.

Main Deck
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest Of Titania
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Elvish Champion
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Messenger
13 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Choke
4 Nature's Claim
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre

1maarten1

05-25-2011, 03:56 PM

bakofried

05-25-2011, 04:00 PM

This is one of the few occasions that I'd point you towards the NO Elves thread on Salvation. This is kind of Nessaja's pet deck, and he's a good bit more active over there (as Naz).

Koby

05-25-2011, 04:22 PM

Looks to me a bunch of sycophants who play Arbor Elves over Fyndhorn Elves because they can get Arbor Elves foiled. *blinks in disbelief*

Ahem anyways, why hasn't Vanquisher not been considered lately? 2 drop 3/3 is rather aggressive. Also, for funsies - I beat a Team America deck the other day by channelling the aggro roots in elves thusly:

Turn 1 Llanowar
Turn 2 Nettle Sentinel x3
Turn 3 Elvish Archdruid, attack for 9
Turn 4 Elvish Archdruid, Attack for 14 :)

TossUsToLions

05-25-2011, 04:59 PM

I've been playing a few Wren's Run Vanquishers since the print of GSZ. Being able to search for "creature removal" whenn you're in the late-game against an opponent with Goyfs and Knights is awesome

bakofried

05-25-2011, 05:15 PM

@rukcus:
Was that pointed at me? That showed more than a bit of your douchebag half, dude. You know better.

The discussion over there is more active, and while you do have to deal with some twats, it's historically been more productive than this thread. If you actually paid attention instead of simply looking at the latest couple of pages, you'd see that quite a bit does get done; there are actual tournament reports (the guy who got 8th at SCG LA with this deck posts there, the writer of this primer posts there far more often), discussions on optimizing the deck, and sound advice given from vets of the deck.

TossUsToLions

05-25-2011, 06:26 PM

The discussion over there is more active, and while you do have to deal with some twats, it's historically been more productive than this thread. If you actually paid attention instead of simply looking at the latest couple of pages, you'd see that quite a bit does get done; there are actual tournament reports (the guy who got 8th at SCG LA with this deck posts there, the writer of this primer posts there far more often), discussions on optimizing the deck, and sound advice given from vets of the deck.

This is true. There was actually some really good stuff going on in the MTS thread, but I stopped posting in the site after I started playing other decks that I wanted to talk about and found that this is a much better forum (except for NO elves) overall. I wish there was more activity going on in this thread as I feel the Source is just so much better overall. Anyone have any recent tourney reports (good or bad) or anything?

bakofried

05-25-2011, 07:34 PM

There's a collection of tournament reports on the first page:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=148666
Some of the newer ones may be missed.

Koby

05-26-2011, 02:47 AM

No the post was directed at the schlub from the MTGsally thread. Regardless, I know Todd and have played against him on occasion. I think the more pertinent and relevant discussion is not tied to the particular strategy (NO vs Glimpse vs whatever) but as a tribe altogether. Most of that discussion has occurred in the combo thread, and I only mentioned it here since someone brought it up.

There doesn't appear much to innovate for this particular variant until something fundamental changes in the tribe that pushes the NO strategy into become superior. GSZ aids both this and the combo lists equally, since it's just a damn good card.

That said, I'm continually disappointed by the weakness of Natural Order packages in the grand schemes.

TossUsToLions

05-26-2011, 01:51 PM

I actually dropped NO from the deck. I find it a turn faster to GSZ for Ezuri and win with him. It allows for more turn 4 wins. It's also more consistent against blue decks without working towards trying to resolve and NO when you could (and should) just be focusing on playing more and better creatures

Rafa

05-31-2011, 03:02 PM

Tru3z3rox

06-06-2011, 10:36 PM

Oh hey..I thought the source thread of elves was dead. Good to see that people have started posting on here.

toyhammered

05-02-2012, 01:40 AM

Oh hey..I thought the source thread of elves was dead. Good to see that people have started posting on here.

I am from the mtgsalvation forum of this which is still alive, but I am wondering if this thread is still alive with people willing to give advice to me? (I like multiple opinions) because lately this deck has just been shitting on me and not living up to the standards and it saddens me.

Kich867

05-02-2012, 01:53 AM

I am from the mtgsalvation forum of this which is still alive, but I am wondering if this thread is still alive with people willing to give advice to me? (I like multiple opinions) because lately this deck has just been shitting on me and not living up to the standards and it saddens me.

To be fair, with even the slightest bit of effort you would have noticed (they aren't hidden, not by a long shot) that the last post on this thread was at least a year ago. I find it hard to look at a thread where the last post was almost a year ago and ask if it's still alive. :eyebrow:

toyhammered

05-02-2012, 02:16 AM

To be fair, with even the slightest bit of effort you would have noticed (they aren't hidden, not by a long shot) that the last post on this thread was at least a year ago. I find it hard to look at a thread where the last post was almost a year ago and ask if it's still alive. :eyebrow:

shhhhhhhh :) lets bring this back to life!

scottpou

03-14-2013, 11:55 AM

I just got back into magic after a several year hiatus. I wanted to build an old-school feeling deck that was fun and interactive that would be great in single or multi-opponent formats. NO Elves fit the bill perfectly (plus I still had the NO's) and I have had a lot of fun playing and tweaking the deck. I decided to stay mono-green and not go B/G with Deathrite Shaman because I hate playing against wasteland in this deck. Most of my other decks use Wasteland (like a well developed meta should), so I see the matchup frequently and don't want to be bothered by that with so few lands already in the deck.

//CORE ELVES (30):
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
1 Elvish Champion
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Sylvan Messenger

//UTILITY CREATURES (4):
1 Progenitus
1 Sylvan Primordial
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Viridian Zealot

//SPELLS (12):
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Land Grant

//LANDS (14):
4 Cavern of Souls
8 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle

Core Elves:

Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Priest, Archdruid, and Quirion: I consider this the core and don't see how you can get around not playing ~4 of each. I chose to go down to 3 Quirion because she is the weakest of the group and to fit an Elvish Champion in the main.

Elvish Champion: As much as I dislike this lord, having the ability to forestwalk right now is worth keeping him in as a single.

Ezuri: I have found that the quickest way to kill someone is using Ezuri's ability multiple times. In doing so, he quickly becomes targeted by my opponents. This is why I have chosen to include 2 of him in my main list. Even if he doesn't do the job, 9 Lords is usually enough to kill the opponent.

Sylvan Messenger vs Elvish Visionary: I prefer Messenger to Visionary because I would rather get to look at and cycle through 4 cards than only draw 1. Plus with 31 Elves in the main list, chances are good I'll be drawing at least one and that is what Visionary would have done anyway.

Utility Creatures:

Progenitus: Sometimes playing him 3rd turn is the only way to beat some decks. Gotta love the protection

Sylvan Primordial: Wow this guy fit in perfectly. Destroying noncreature permanent and able to block flying. It answered my needs in one card. Currently in love with this guy.

Wirewood Symbiote: Simply put, my draw engine for Messenger. That's all I care about him for. We aren't trying to combo and for what we need, Quirion does about the same thing.

Viridian Zealot: It is nice to have some main deck answer to a pesty artifact or enchantment. Not usually played, but I like knowing I have him in there.

Spells:
Land Grant: Land Grant vs Fetch Lands. Even though it is only 1 life and this goes against every other deck I've had or ever will had. I would rather let me opponent see my hand because it's all coming out anyway pretty quickly. Like I said in the opening, I like that this is an interactive deck.

SIDEBOARD:
4 Desert Twister
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Viridian Zealot
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Stingerfling Spider
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast

Sideboard:

Twister is in there primarily for a resolved Elsh or similar fatty I can't take out with Sylvan Primordial.

Fauna Shaman lets me search for a Macabre even if I don't get one in my opening hand.

Stingerfling Spider helps me get rid of a flying threat.

Melira is just a meta choice because of a very fast infect deck.

Repopulate also travels with me, but is not currently in the sideboard.

Looking Forward:

I really feel like NO Elves is a great and fun deck. Currently though, it just isn't as good as good as its Tribal competition such as Goblins, Merfolk and Zombies. I think it would be extremely difficult for NO Elves to ever be a "Deck To Beat". Our realistic competition and measuring stick should be against the other Aggro Tribes I mentioned. To me, the difference between the other Tribes and Elves isn't utilities or lack of tutoring. It seems like speed. NO Elves can be out raced a lot of times by these decks. Well, what about if we added Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Visionary and Nettle Sentinel? NO Elves doesn't use Glimpse of Nature nor do I think it should. I really don't like the thought of relying on one card when we can't protect it with a counter or discard. What does everyone else think? What limiting factor is keeping NO Elves down? After all, isn't that the point of all the Deck Threads :tongue:

Well I'm just glad to back playing Magic. I had almost forgotten how much fun this game is. Now let's discuss! :cool:

EDIT: I'm a dummy and forgot to put the Cavern of Souls in this decklist. I knew the lands looked weird