The Enlightenment: Temple Bell + Mind Over Matter combo (M11 Spoiler)

[ktkenshinx]

The Enlightenment
Temple Bell + Mind Over Matter

Updated: July 13, 2010

The purpose of this thread is for collaboration and for ideas about this combo, its feasibility, and its future. The title, "The Enlightenment" takes its name from the flavor text of Temple Bell, and the notion that "Mind Over Matter" is a tenet Buddhist and, more generally, East Asian Philosophy.

The combo involves something new and something old. The new card is from M11, a seemingly innocuous replacement to Howling Mine. The old card is a Legacy "staple" of sorts, not in that it ever sees serious competitive play, but because people all know it and love it. I speak of Mind Over Matter, the expensively-priced enchantment from the Tolarian Academy glory days of old.

The combo's objective: help your opponent achieve Enlightenment through their drawing every card in their deck plus one.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106843&stc=1&d=1277916836 http://www.extensiveenterprisesonline.com/OnlineStore/images/tcgs/mtg/exo/mind_over_matter.jpg

How does the combo work?
The combo itself is simple: activate Bell, use MOM to untap it, and then repeat the process. The end result is both players draw as many cards as you can activate the bell. If your deck is built correctly, that means a decked opponent and a victorious Enlightenment pilot.

So how can you guarantee a decking? After all, what if you have more cards in your deck than your opponent. The answer is simple: use either Emrakul the Aeons Torn or Darksteel Colossus. Progenitus is another option but, as will be shown shortly, the other two have unique advantages over their 10/10 cousin. Both Emrakul and DSC shuffle back into your library, thereby preventing your suicide. Emrakul has the added bonus of comboing beautifully with Show and Tell, a potential way to cheat Mind Over Matter into play. This gives the deck an alternate win condition besides the combo itself.

What about DSC? Darksteel does not actually hit your graveyard, which means an opponent packing graveyard hatred will not be able to stop you. Emrakul does not have that benefit, although it is certainly a better Show and Tell target. Of course, you will ultimately only have DSC in your library, cycling endlessly between there and your hand, but few opponents, if any, pack spells to force you to draw more cards. Thus, you will live and your opponent will be decked in their reckless pursuit of Enlightenment.

So that's how the combo works at the most basic level. That means that it is time for the obligatory counter-objection section:

Why is the combo good?

1) Only involves 2 cards.
2) Wins immediately.
3) Both pieces can be tutored for with one unbanned card, Enlightened Tutor.
4) Involves the color Blue, which means Force of Will and Daze.
5) Both cards are useful on their own.
6) No creature pieces (unlike Grindstone/Painter).
7) Pieces do not have CounterTop vulnerability with the traditional 1 or 2 CMC.

Those are 8 strong reasons in support of the combo's viability. There have also been questions about what differentiates this deck from similar combo decks, namely Helm of the Void (Leyline of the Void/Helm of Obedience combo), Painter Grindstone, and Dream Halls. Here are the main reasons why The Enlightenment is both different and better than these combos. There is some overlap between the above list and the following list.

1) The combo pieces are individually useful on their own. (Lone Grindstones are pretty darn bad)
2) There are no creatures involved. (Swords/Bolt/Path/Chain all murder Servant)
3) The combo contains no "dead" cards. (Such as Conflux in the Dream Halls deck, or multiple Leyline of the Void in Helm of the Void)
4) Half of the combo defends itself (You can use MoM to tap the opponent's lands in your first main phase, then proceed to the combat phase for the kill.)
5) Half of the combo helps find the other half.
6) This combo doesn't target opponent. (What do the following win mechanisms have in common: Tendrils of Agony, Grindstone, Helm of Obedience, Goblin Charbelcher. Hint, they all have problems against Leyline of Sanctity, which will absolutely see extensive play).
7) The deck has a built in backup win plan using Emrakul and Show and Tell.
8) The CMC of combo pieces is outside of average CounterTop range (CMC 0,1, and 2 fall victim to that deck).

All of these points are important, but I want to emphasize #6 more than the rest. Leyline of Sanctity is going to see play, much in the same way that Leyline of the Void saw extensive play as a Dredge killer. It's easy for decks to run the Leyline, especially Zoo and New Horizons, both of which can actually hardcast it (not that NH NEEDS this card, given its extensive CounterMagic suit). While Leyline of Sanctity won't be everywhere, it will certainly be used as an anti-combo silver bullet. The Enlightenment is totally immune to this card, which gives you a big edge in games 2 and 3, where aggro players might have fewer combo answers than they would like.

Dealing with Vulnerabilities
The main vulnerability of this deck is Krosan Grip. As Rico_Suave pointed out, and others repeatedly re-point out, you run an extra risk in this combo because your opponent can actually draw into their answer (Grip in this case) and cast it immediately. This is certainly a problem, but there are multiple ways to deal with it. There is the obligatory Silence, Orim's Chant, Wasteland, Rishadan Port shennanigans that will certainly stop your opponent from Gripping.

But there is a more elegant solution as pointed out by DrJones: simply use the Mind Over Matter itself to tap your opponent's lands. Tap their green producing lands, or all of their lands if you are feeling paranoid, and then proceed to the next phase, so as to empty their mana pools. Then you can do whatever you want with your drawing and discarding, only imperiled by a possible Spirit Guide (Simian or Elvish); all in all not a serious consideration except in the Belcher match, where you can of course just use Silence/Chant instead.

I have started to test some decklists, which will be posted here as they have success. But general deck-crafting should occur in the absence of an agreed-upon list. I wholeheartedly believe that The Enlightenment is a Legacy-viable combo for the reasons mentioned above, and I look forward to any input and collaboration that this community can offer on the combo.

-ktkenshinx-

[Rico Suave]

You do realize this combo basically reads "lose if the opponent has K.Grip anywhere in his deck" right?

[Vacrix]

You do realize this combo basically reads "lose if the opponent has K.Grip anywhere in his deck" right?
And has untapped lands?

EDIT:
Also, considering Emrakul... What about running Monolith as well? Then you have a possible way to play Emrakul.. or you can also play Stroke of Genius to stroke yourself.

[yankeedave]

You do realize this combo basically reads "lose if the opponent has K.Grip anywhere in his deck" right?

Lol, so the poor guy asks for constructive help and this is the best you have?

Anyways, I like the idea, have you thought of maybe a counterbalance shell with this, as it stops the above problem and also forms a good shell for controlling the match.

[ktkenshinx]

You do realize this combo basically reads "lose if the opponent has K.Grip anywhere in his deck" right?
If they have the mana to play it or the ability to play it, both of which can be stopped using Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Silence, Orim's Chant, or some combination thereof.

It's probably more productive in a combo-oriented deck thread to avoid this line of reasoning.

A) Do any cards stop this combo?
B) If yes, this combo is bad.

Perhaps we should use the following reasoning instead:

A) Do any cards stop this combo?
B) If yes,what can this combo do to stop them?
C) Are these solutions viable? Or are there too many weaknesses?

The first line of reasoning disqualifies every combo deck in the history of Magic. Indeed, your argument could be equally well applied to Painter+Grindstone, although we should add in the vulnerability to removal in that case.

The second line of reasoning is a bit more produtive, and it is this line of reasoning that keeps decks like ANT, IGGy, SI, and a variety of other combo decks alive. They identify problems and then identify solutions. In the case of Grip, which is exclusively used in games 2 and 3 in the current metagame, you have a variety of options that you can easily board in, in anticipation of the inevitable Grip or Pithing Needle. It is embarrassing to this forum that people always respond in such a way to new ideas without bothering to consider the alternatives.


Anyways, I like the idea, have you thought of maybe a counterbalance shell with this, as it stops the above problem and also forms a good shell for controlling the match.
This is a particularly strong idea because of its synergy with the obligatory Enlightened Tutor. The ability to tutor for any of these 4 "combo pieces" is quite strong, and it is this idea that was behind the recent St. Louis SCG Open winning deck.

-ktkenshinx-

[kinda]

I think you should be comparing this to helm/leyline instead of painter/grindstone.

[jimirynk]

I really like it BUT it seems like a worse dream halls concept.
Show and tell dreamhalls seems a lot stronger than show and tell a mind over matter do to one of the combo's needs the other in play the other needs it in your hand.
plus all the blue in mind over matter makes ancient tomb/city of traitor's poor choices so how would you cast it?

I'm guessing a 4 of high tide in this decks final 75.

I also can see the idea of orim's chant and enlighten tutor helping the deck out

my first attempt at a decklist would include
4 high tide
4 force of will
4 mind over matter
4 temple bell
4 show and tell
2 emakrul
4 brainstorm
4 enlighten tutor
2 orims chant
3 ponder
3 of enlighten tutor silver bullets?
22 lands

seems bad right now, I'll let the internet work out the kinks.

The one thing I like about the deck is one half of the combo helps you find the second half.

[Aggro_zombies]

The issue with that is that you're not a storm combo deck, so trying to assemble all these cards before going off is pretty weak. I mean, yeah, you can try to draw them, but Rico's point was that your combo is bad because there are way more opportunities to interact with it than with a similar, and unplayable, combo (Painter-Stone).

Your "combo" is also already basically three cards, because actually casting Show and Tell before you get run over is pretty unrealistic in a format without Tolarian Academy. You can use E Tutor to find the two most relevant pieces, but you're going to have to load up on cantrips and LDVs to find Show and Tell, and even then you're filling so many slots with fixing and stuff that it's not clear to me that this is better than Nightmare's Aeon Bridge or just playing regular storm combo. Painter-Stone is pretty bad, and it's far more flexible in terms of required setup support than this combo, in addition to being easier to tutor for (Trinket Mage finds one component as well as lots of other useful stuff).

EDIT: Helmline is probably worse in many ways than Painter-Stone. It's better in the sense that Leyline does something on its own against most of the format, but worse in that you generally need to be in black so you can cast Leyline when you don't open it, and Painter-Stone is pretty cheap - allowing it to go off on turn three, ideally.

[Grumpollion]

I really want to fit Contamination into this deck just so that I can call it "Taco Bell."

[kinda]

The issue with that is that you're not a storm combo deck, so trying to assemble all these cards before going off is pretty weak. I mean, yeah, you can try to draw them, but Rico's point was that your combo is bad because there are way more opportunities to interact with it than with a similar, and unplayable, combo (Painter-Stone).

Your "combo" is also already basically three cards, because actually casting Show and Tell before you get run over is pretty unrealistic in a format without Tolarian Academy. You can use E Tutor to find the two most relevant pieces, but you're going to have to load up on cantrips and LDVs to find Show and Tell, and even then you're filling so many slots with fixing and stuff that it's not clear to me that this is better than Nightmare's Aeon Bridge or just playing regular storm combo. Painter-Stone is pretty bad, and it's far more flexible in terms of required setup support than this combo, in addition to being easier to tutor for (Trinket Mage finds one component as well as lots of other useful stuff).

EDIT: Helmline is probably worse in many ways than Painter-Stone. It's better in the sense that Leyline does something on its own against most of the format, but worse in that you generally need to be in black so you can cast Leyline when you don't open it, and Painter-Stone is pretty cheap - allowing it to go off on turn three, ideally.

I wasn't comparing leyline/helm to painter/grindstone, I was trying to say that mind/bell combo is much closer to helm/leyline than painter/grindstone (in its strenghts/flaws). The point is that when assessing the viability of this new combo we have to determine why it can succeed where helm/leyling has not. And helm/leyline has a lot going for it...leyline shuts down some decks completely...40% of the time you only need to find/play helm to win...but there's also the negative that helm is dead by itself and sometimes so is leyline...and black vs. blue as the mandatory color.

[Vacrix]

I really like it BUT it seems like a worse dream halls concept.
Show and tell dreamhalls seems a lot stronger than show and tell a mind over matter do to one of the combo's needs the other in play the other needs it in your hand.
plus all the blue in mind over matter makes ancient tomb/city of traitor's poor choices so how would you cast it?

I'm guessing a 4 of high tide in this decks final 75.

I also can see the idea of orim's chant and enlighten tutor helping the deck out

my first attempt at a decklist would include
4 high tide
4 force of will
4 mind over matter
4 temple bell
4 show and tell
2 emakrul
4 brainstorm
4 enlighten tutor
2 orims chant
3 ponder
3 of enlighten tutor silver bullets?
22 lands

seems bad right now, I'll let the internet work out the kinks.

The one thing I like about the deck is one half of the combo helps you find the second half.
Looks decent. The only problem is that its a bad version of Spring Tide/Solidarity. I think the Etutor package is a much stronger option. Run 2 of each piece, cantrip into the pieces or tutuors. In the mean time, control the game with countermagic and cheap protection spells like STP and PtE.

[Combo Winter]

4 Mind over matter
4 temple bell
4 lim duls vault
4 show and tell
1 prog
1 emralku
4 thought seize
4 fow
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 chrome mox
4 saprazzan skerry
4 underground sea
3 delta
3 island
2 Svyelunite Temple
2 flooded strand

This is the list i would run I think it could be decent but is it better than dream halls is a real question. mono blue with high tide + calandebra of tonwos would be another option to acell the deck but seems strickly worse than spring tide which is not a viable deck. I would not compare this dech to other current combos becuase it can only be played in a limited blue heavy shell.

[Rico Suave]

The reason Grip is so bad for this deck is because they don't even need Grip in hand when you combo out, they are going to draw it in the process of you going off.

There is a hoser for every combo, but the difference is something like Leyline/Helm doesn't let the opponent draw the answers to the combo. They need it before the combo gets started.

[DrJones]

Krosan Grip is useless if you tap their lands with Mind over Matter [ /duh]

And I think that the best acceleration would be high tide, but Tithe and Transmute Artifact could also work. Transmute Artifact + Affinity is severely underrated, and Transmute is also a Tutor for the Bell, Gilded Lotus and the Colossus.

[majikal]

So... just gonna throw this out there, but Grim Monolith lets you run the combo out a little faster. Not sure if it's better than SnT, but it might add some redundancy to the deck.

Grim Monolith -> Pass Turn, netxt turn MoM -> Pitch Card to untap Monolith -> Temple Bell

I know the situation is probably unrealistic, but I mean why not throw it in to increase explosiveness, and also an alternate combo with Power Artifact? They can't hate ALL our combos! lol.

[Pastorofmuppets]

So... just gonna throw this out there, but Grim Monolith lets you run the combo out on turn 3 (or 2 if you've got Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond).

Turn 1/2 Grim Monolith -> Pass Turn, Turn 2/3 MoM -> Pitch Card to untap Monolith -> Temple Bell

I know the situation is probably unrealistic, but I mean why not throw it in to increase explosiveness, and also an alternate combo with Power Artifact? They can't hate ALL our combos! lol
Especially since you plan to run DSC or Emrakul as shufflers, PA might be something to look into.

[Grumpollion]

Maybe Academy Rector and/or Lost Auramancers (possibly combined with Vampire Hexmage in the latter case) could be used somehow to tutor for and put into play the Mind Over Matter.

[ktkenshinx]

The reason Grip is so bad for this deck is because they don't even need Grip in hand when you combo out, they are going to draw it in the process of you going off.

There is a hoser for every combo, but the difference is something like Leyline/Helm doesn't let the opponent draw the answers to the combo. They need it before the combo gets started.


Krosan Grip is useless if you tap their lands with Mind over Matter [ /duh]
Simply tap their green producing mana in your main phase, proceed to the combat/post combat phase after their mana is emptied, and proceed to win right there. Unless they are also running some Spirit Guides, they are not going to have any green mana with which to cast Grip.

The difference between this and other combo decks is that it has its anti-hate built into the card; use MOM to tap the mana, and there goes any hope of destroying the pair before you win. Indeed this is such a critical point brought up by DrJones that I am going to add it to the original post, to clarify the issue in the future.

-ktkenshinx-

[deadlock]

While i like the idea, the biggest problem for me is that MoM costs 2UUUU instead of the more typical 4UU. Why you may ask? Consider this list:

// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
2 [ROE] Island (1)
1 [MOR] Mutavault
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [MR] Proteus Staff
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [US] Voltaic Key
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 Bell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [EX] Mind Over Matter
4 [IA] Brainstorm

(Its just a draft so dont complain about the 65 cards)

In my opinion this list would be pretty decent (or something between the lines!) if Monolith could power out MoM, which would be possible with the 'normal' distribution between colored and colorless mana. As it stands i dont see how to power it out, something mass blue producing like Academy would be required :cool:

[DrJones]

The best accelerator is Carpet of Flowers, but it's a bit unreliable. Lotus Vale (and/or Gilded Lotus) were used in older combinations with Mind Over Matter. High Tide would make it a slow combo, but it could work.

EDIT: Pentad Prism isn't too bad, either, and interacts nicely with Transmute Artifact.

[Chrommox]

3 Emraul, the Aeons Torn
3 Drift of Phantasms
2 Ethereal Usher

4 Brainstorm
1 Intuition
2 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
3 Thwart
4 Show and Tell

4 Mind Over Matter
4 Temple Bell
4 Chrome Mox

3 Crystal Vein
19 Island

Here's a list I tested briefly and it surprisingly won games against Ichorid (through Emrakul) and against Merfolk (through Mind Over Matter). I think I destroyed a U/r Dreadstill also when I dropped MoM on him with counter backups when I was a turn away from lethal after taking Trinket Mage and Factory beats.

I decided to go mono-U essentially to give the deck resilience against wastelands, moon effects, back to basics, and stifle. This deck simply cannot afford any set back. The plan is simple: drop an Island each turn to support the :u::u::u::u: requirement. Save Crystal Vein for last and rip it only when needed, mostly against Daze or to pay for Mind Over Matter's :2:.

Intuition works fine but I prefer the uncounterable tutor effects (Drift of Phantasms, Ethereal Usher). Drift of Phantasms can also work as a fogger when Temple Bell is already in play.

I went for Chrome Mox for reusability as compared to Lotus Petals since the deck has enough blue cards to support it. To compensate for card disadvantage, I maindecked a set of Pact of Negation and 3xThwarts for protection. Both spells simply seals the game after dropping MoM. They were really a blast during playtesting.

[Gocho]

Wow! I like it.

It looks a little bad when I think in it, but after understanding that your opponent decks himself and you don't seems that it could work if you can get the UUUU.
And Tapping his lands with MoM seems a good play.

I see another drawback. You need one card in hand for every green land that your opponent has.
You use one card in your hand to Untap Bell and draw another, but needs the others to tap the lands. If your opponent can keep enough Lands untapped (discarding your hand for example) or play Elvish Spirit Guide for G you lose to KGrip.

Perhaps a single Lobotomy or another similar card can deal with Krosan.

[3eowulf]

While i like the idea, the biggest problem for me is that MoM costs 2UUUU instead of the more typical 4UU. Why you may ask? Consider this list:
[...]
In my opinion this list would be pretty decent (or something between the lines!) if Monolith could power out MoM, which would be possible with the 'normal' distribution between colored and colorless mana. As it stands i dont see how to power it out, something mass blue producing like Academy would be required :cool:

If we play 4 enlightened tutors, maybe we can try lotus bloom instead of monolith for acceleration.

[Combo Winter]

Along that line if you play transmute artifact with moxes and tops, and petals ect you can transmute for a bloom with is way better than waiting 3 turns. I mean a lot of the build posted clearly dont have enough quick blue sources cards like grim monolith arent very helpful when you need uuuu. The generic mana is easy to generate like city of traitors spirit guides ect and your probably gonna be spending blue mana to cast the monolith in the first place.

4 transmute artifact
4 MoM
4 temple bell
4 ET
3 top
4 fow
4 brainstorm
4 show and tell
2 ponder
2 loutus bloom
4 chrome mox
4 loutus petal
1 Prog

3 delta
4 strand
3 tundra
4 island
1 seat of the synod

[Gnosus]

I had a similar idea over on mtgsalvation to use MoM, but Temple Bell really makes the difference over using Prosperity and Stroke as a draw engine.

Here is my decklist:

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Stroke of Genius
4 Orim's Chant
4 Force of Will

Sorceries

4 Show and Tell

Enchantments
3 Mind Over Matter

Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lotus Petal
4 Grim Monolith
2 Scroll Rack
4 Temple Bell

Lands
9 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Plains

[Pastorofmuppets]

If you're running U/W, you might want to try Sword and Foundry in here somewhere as an alternate win.

[Mystical_Jackass]

very cool idea.. but just looking at it, this deck is one of those that'll just lose to itself quite a lot. This deck CAN beat decks like goblins and zoo... but I can already forshadow the majority of the time it won't. Why? Consistency.. gobs and Zoo can much more consistently pull off that T3/4 kill than decks like this which has to piece together the right cards with the right mana, not including how Port/Wastes or Pridemage can slip by and change the game at times too. A lot of the other decks like Landstill I played few days ago, and Eva Green, Deadguy, etc. just have quite a bit of disruption from hymns, thoughtseizes, spell pierces, and FoW's you have to get around so I'm thinking this combo might be more casual than you think, but deffinitely a fun idea especially in EDH.

[eightfists8]

I just started using UW Thopertop and think that this would go really well into that shell replacing the thopter/meek wincon with MoM Bell. Moat would have to be included as that is the often the card that turns the game around. I don't seem to win until at least turn six right now and think MoM-bell is more resilient to hate as extirpate or crypts don't wreck it and grips and pridemage hurt the same amount. Do you think that the show and tell could be avoided going for straight control with some JTMS as alt win con? It seems like cards in hand are key to the combo for shutting down green lands so I figure some draw other than bell would be important. Any suggestions as to which one?

[GexxX]

Well I think the problem with this Combo is the point that your opponent draws cards. Let him have some mana open and he can play some removal instant. That seems kind of bad to me, especially post-board when he knows what you will be doing.

Anyway I'd think about a Control-shell featuring Grim Monolith + Power artifact.
It gives infinite mana, so you can hardcast Emrakul. It's tutorable. Gives the alternative to win with Stroke (or lets you draw cards to find combo pieces with stroke). Downside: Castingcosts of UU.

I am not sure if it fits the Deck concept, but I've allways liked PA +Grim Monolith.

Just some thoughts

[ktkenshinx]

very cool idea.. but just looking at it, this deck is one of those that'll just lose to itself quite a lot. This deck CAN beat decks like goblins and zoo... but I can already forshadow the majority of the time it won't. Why? Consistency.. gobs and Zoo can much more consistently pull off that T3/4 kill than decks like this which has to piece together the right cards with the right mana, not including how Port/Wastes or Pridemage can slip by and change the game at times too. A lot of the other decks like Landstill I played few days ago, and Eva Green, Deadguy, etc. just have quite a bit of disruption from hymns, thoughtseizes, spell pierces, and FoW's you have to get around so I'm thinking this combo might be more casual than you think, but deffinitely a fun idea especially in EDH.
I will do a more thorough metagame analysis later as I pick intelligent cards for the deck, but the prevalence of Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk is definitely notable. One card that improves all of these matchups is Moat. Easily tutored for off of E-Tutor, and easily protected with Force of Will, Daze, and Swords (on any existing pridemages or on problematic flying Commanders), Moat holds the opponent off for at least a few turns. This gives you enough time to get your hand in order and get ready to fire off your combo.
The CounterTop lock addition is also critical in these matchups. Shutting down post-turn 1 Thoughtseizes and Duress's are critical for consistency. I will begin testing a version tonight against a gauntlet of decks, and I will certainly add one of the black disruption builds to that list just for testing's sake.


I just started using UW Thopertop and think that this would go really well into that shell replacing the thopter/meek wincon with MoM Bell. Moat would have to be included as that is the often the card that turns the game around. I don't seem to win until at least turn six right now and think MoM-bell is more resilient to hate as extirpate or crypts don't wreck it and grips and pridemage hurt the same amount. Do you think that the show and tell could be avoided going for straight control with some JTMS as alt win con? It seems like cards in hand are key to the combo for shutting down green lands so I figure some draw other than bell would be important. Any suggestions as to which one?
I have been thinking that S&T would be the alternate win with Emrakul; if you can go for the turn 2 Emrakul against Zoo and Goblins, then that's just a better option sometimes. My concern with Jace involves slots. I can already tell that this deck is going to be tight for space, what with the combo, the tutors, the standard UW defense package (Daze/FoW/Swords), CounterTop, S&T, Brainstorm, etc. That will leave probably 4-5 slots if we push it on lands, and even then we are missing some badly needed acceleration. What does Jace actually offer the deck? It doesn't do much in the aggro matchups, especially against Zoo. Does it actually improve any hypothetically bad matchups?


Well I think the problem with this Combo is the point that your opponent draws cards. Let him have some mana open and he can play some removal instant. That seems kind of bad to me, especially post-board when he knows what you will be doing.
I cannot emphasize the importance of using MOM to tap your opponent's lands enough. Tap them during your main phase, proceed to the combat phase after their mana pool is empty, and then force them to draw all their cards. Only a deck packing spirit guides (Elvish specifically) is going to have mana to fire off at you at that point.

As to a deck core, here is what I was thinking. This will be refined with some testing

3-4 Mind Over Matter (Drawing two of these is just bad, and between Top/Brainstorm/Tutor, you have a lot of digging)
4 Temple Bell (This card will almost always hit the battlefield before MOM, so it's better to have redundant copies in case others get killed. Also, it's fairly useful on its own, and has good synergy with a CounterTop lock)

4 Sensei's Divining Top (useful for digging, an excellent turn 1 play)
3-4 Counterbalance (4 is probably a better option, but that's a lot of slots on a card that does not need redundant copies)

4 Force of Will (needed)
3-4 Daze (4 is probably better)
4 Swords to Plowshares (the best removal spell for this deck. Maybe should be augmented with 1-2 paths to

4 Brainstorm (mandatory)
4 Enlightened Tutor (mandatory)

1 Meekstone (low cost solution to most aggro decks. maybe redundant with Moat given our lack of Trinket Mage)
1 Moat (Solution to aggro)

2-4 Show and Tell
1+ Emrakul

Thoughts on these choices? I am not yet sold on an acceleration source (Monolith, Petal, Mox, etc.) or alternate win conditions and their numbers in the deck (S&T, Emrakul, PA, Swords, Foundry, etc.)

-ktkenshinx-

[Gnosus]

I'd say that the addition of a Blue X draw spell or two would help in some situations. The major problem I've had in playtesting my MoM deck is getting MoM out ASAP. I've tried High Tide and Show and Tell, with High Tide (Mono U build) you can combo out turn three and with Show and Tell (UW) turn two. The problem is being able to get that sucker out fast and consistently, not what to do once you get it out.

[Chrommox]

Mono-Blue Mind Over Matter
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Drift of Phantasms

4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation
3 Thwart

4 Show and Tell
4 Mind Over Matter
4 Temple Bell
3 Chrome Mox

3 Crystal Vein
19 Island

Here's the closest to competitive I've tested. I'm playing with 3x Intuition now which basically tutors for anything. Drift finds Temple Bell, Show and Tell and Intuition which finds MoM, Emrakul or counterspells. The free counterspells have done really well against permission wars. The beauty of playing just Mind over Matter is that it wins immediately without the need of casting anything. Emrakul will just shuffle the graveyard back. Just Thwart and Pact away for the win. Only this manabase can support that tactic.

It doesn't need Grim Monolith, Candelabra shenanigans to cast Stroke of Genius and combo out. That combo is different and more susceptible to denial spells, traps, and hatebears as already stated by ktkenshinx. High Tide also only enables an opponent to drop all his counterspells on you.

Against discard, I always reserve my Brainstorms to hide the combo. The tutor and transmute cards are there if anything.

[d0ner]

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Mind over Matter
3 Temple Bell
4 Show and Tell
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Brainstorm
4 Grim Monolith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Proteus Staff

2 Shelldock Isle
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
10 Island
4 Mishras Factory

U got the Bell MoM Combo and there are even some other Winconditions:

- Proteus Staff on Mishra's Factory will give u Emrakul in play
- With less cards in Library Shelldock Isle will play Emrakul(remember u got Brainstorm and Top to manipulate the top Cards of your Library) -> u get an extra turn!
- Ramp with Monolith and MoM to hardcast Emrakul -> u get an extra turn!

cb+top + fow + daze will do the control part!

[eightfists8]

I like your main decklist. Playtesting will determine a lot...any ideas for sideboard. 3-4 paths would be good for aggro. I'm open to other suggestions.

[sunshine]

Seems like a fun deck concept.

I'd think about running some number of Helm of Awakening and almost certainly four copies of SDT. Even without Helm SDT is pretty ridiculous with a resolved MoM, at which point it basically reads: ":1: : Cycle any number of cards in your hand" making it pretty easy to find that Bell/Emrakul.

[EssKay]

And against opposing decks with Emrakul, etc.?

[sunshine]

They would still need a way to discard their Emrakul/Progenitus - otherwise it would sit pretty in their hand along with everything else they drew.

[bruno_tiete]

Even if they do, you just let it trigger and discard another card to MoM and keep going off with Gaea's Blessing's clause on the stack.

EDIT- Well, not in Progenitus's case.

[Kangaxx]

Wouldn't Personal Tutor be better than Drifts? I realize that drifts can search for Bell but Personal Tutor is alot faster at getting the main thing you want to search for.

[ktkenshinx]

There have been two developments in this deck that are worth discussing. One regards my testing, and the other regards a new card printed in M11.

1) Testing
After some testing, I have come to the conclusion that this deck has considerable competitive potential. I tested against a gauntlet of Merfolk (Mono Blue), Zoo, New Horizons, and TES, the latter being my combo representative in an allegedly combo-dead format in the wake of Mystical Tutor's banning. The results were quite favorable. Zoo was extremely tame owing to my singleton maindeck Meekstone which gives you an extra 2 or more turns, instantly shutting off Knight, Nacatl, and Goyf. Coupled with 4 maindeck Swords and the CounterTop engine, you have a strong edge in this matchup.
TES, and the other combo decks vying for supremacy in the wake of Tutor's death, are also fairly tame matchups. You just run a lot of countermagic (12 sources maindeck), with 3-4 more Spell Pierce in the board. Additionally, unlike in most control matchups, you have the ability to randomly win on turn 4-5, which is sometimes how long it takes a combo player to build up a decent hand to circumvent redundant countermagic effects.
Merfolk, New Horizons, and CounterTop are normally pretty darn good at busting combo. "The Enlightenment" has a few tricks up its sleeve for dealing with these traditional menaces. The first is removal. Few, if any, successful combo decks pack maindeck creature removal. But those 4 Swords go a long, long way to giving you 1-2 extra turns. This is especially relevant against New Horizons, where taking out one of their hyper-efficient creatures buys you a lot of time.
The second reason is the sideboard inclusion of Carpet of Flowers. This card dramatically improves your control matchups, accelerating your combo by a solid 2 or even 3 turns. A common play involved a turn 1 Carpet followed by a turn 2 CounterTop lock (or lock setup), or a Temple Bell. This could be followed with a turn 4-5 win at latest. Carpet is also searchable off of Enlightened Tutor, adding further redundancy to the deck.

2) Leyline of Sanctity
It has been touted as a new nail in combo's coffin. Of course, this is probably not true, but Leyline of Sanctity stands to impact combo in the same way that Leyline of the Void impacted Dredge. At least, it stands to have this effect on Storm combo. The Enlightenment is completely immune to the Leyline's effects. This has a huge impact on the deck's potential competitiveness in future events. If more aggro decks choose to use the free and efficient Leyline as opposed to the slightly more expensive alternatives like Gaddock Teeg, this deck will benefit. We run zero opponent-targeting effects, not even Thoughtseize. That makes this card dead in games 2 and 3 against decks that rely on Leyline as their anti-combo silver bullet.

Those are some general observations about the deck so far. I want to emphasize a point that I mentioned earlier, one that Doug Linn discussed in his daily article on StarCityGames.

MoM and Temple Bell are good cards on their own. Unlike Dream Halls, Helm of the Void, or Painter's Servant, this deck runs combo pieces that are individually helpful. It also does not run a lot of dead cards. Heck, even drawing multiple Temple Bells isn't that bad. The bottom line is that the cards in this deck are individually useful AND win when combined. That's what gives this deck an edge over other "similar" combo decks.

-ktkenshinx-

[SageOwl]

I would play Ancient Tomb in the deck, It lets you drop turn 2 show and tell....Which can be a turn 2 win

Turn 1: Tundra, enlightened tutor (if you need to)
Turn 2: Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell - Mind over matter, discard two cards to untap lands, Temple Bell

[DrJones]

You know that Carpet of Flowers has been errataed to trigger twice each turn, I presume. Some search engines (such as the one used by the tag feature) still list it with older wording.

[ktkenshinx]

You know that Carpet of Flowers has been errataed to trigger twice each turn, I presume. Some search engines (such as the one used by the tag feature) still list it with older wording.
It sort of works like that. It does trigger twice each turn, but it only adds mana if you haven't already added mana from the Carpet.

Source: Gatherer
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5858

"At the beginning of each of your main phases, if you haven't added mana to your mana pool with this ability this turn, you may add up to X mana of any one color to your mana pool, where X is the number of Islands target opponent controls."

As to Ancient Tomb, it definitely deserves a spot in the deck. I have also been testing a variety of other acceleration sources with sporadic success rates. The best so far was definitely Saprazzan Skerry. In conjunction with Ancient Tomb and Lotus Petal, it gave the deck a reliable turn 4 win. Wasteland vulnerabilities aside, the card is at its weakest in control matchups, where you might need to tap it more than twice.

Thoughts on the acceleration sources?

-ktkenshinx-

[DrJones]

I run 4x Mox Diamond + 3x Tithe in my GW Survival and works wonderful (much better than running hierarchs and birds), but I also play Knight of the Reliquary and minimum 21 lands, not sure if it would work for your build. I tried to add 4x Gemstone Caverns to it but doesn't work as well as I hoped.

The other mana engine I use is svg tech, but so far only ANT and Reanimator decks can make use of it.

Edit: I also like Saprazzan Skerry. Another option is Soldevi Excavations or High Tide and Cloud of Faeries.

[rufus]

As to Ancient Tomb, it definitely deserves a spot in the deck. I have also been testing a variety of other acceleration sources with sporadic success rates. The best so far was definitely Saprazzan Skerry. In conjunction with Ancient Tomb and Lotus Petal, it gave the deck a reliable turn 4 win. Wasteland vulnerabilities aside, the card is at its weakest in control matchups, where you might need to tap it more than twice.

Thoughts on the acceleration sources?


The nice thing about the update is that you can now use Carpet of Flowers the same turn that it's been played if you play it in the first main phase.

:u::u::u::u:2 is a pretty tall order. You could also Reshape or Transmute Artifact into Lotus Bloom to get :u::u::u:, but it's really not that great.

[Malakai]

So...it's kind of like Painter-Grindstone, except it costs 5UUUU instead of 6, and it requires you to play something with cmc 6 and 3 instead of 2 and 1, and has less cards that can tutor for it. And on top of that already up-hill battle, you cannot win if the opponent has three mana open and one of the most common sideboard cards in the format SOMEWHERE in his deck.

This is masochism.

[DrJones]

So...it's kind of like Painter-Grindstone, except it costs 5UUUU instead of 6, and it requires you to play something with cmc 6 and 3 instead of 2 and 1, and has less cards that can tutor for it. And on top of that already up-hill battle, you cannot win if the opponent has three mana open and one of the most common sideboard cards in the format SOMEWHERE in his deck.

This is masochism.
~~~~ ^·^ <---- The thread


?
o <---- you
|

[Chrommox]

you cannot win if the opponent has three mana open and one of the most common sideboard cards in the format SOMEWHERE in his deck.



But there is a more elegant solution as pointed out by DrJones: simply use the Mind Over Matter itself to tap your opponent's lands.

[ktkenshinx]

So...it's kind of like Painter-Grindstone, except it costs 5UUUU instead of 6, and it requires you to play something with cmc 6 and 3 instead of 2 and 1, and has less cards that can tutor for it. And on top of that already up-hill battle, you cannot win if the opponent has three mana open and one of the most common sideboard cards in the format SOMEWHERE in his deck.

This is masochism.

I really thought we covered the differences between these decks. In fact, looking back over the few pages we definitely did but you just elected not to read them. But for the sake of the thread I will happily repeat them.

1) Combo pieces are individually useful on their own. (Lone Grindstones are pretty darn bad)
2) No creatures involved. (Swords/Bolt/Path/Chain all murder Servant)
3) No "dead" cards in the combo. (Such as Conflux in the Dream Halls deck, or multiple Leyline of the Void in Helm of the Void)
4) Half of the combo defends itself (Use MoM to tap opponent's lands in one main phase, then proceed to the next)
5) Half of the combo helps find the other half.
6) Combo doesn't target opponent. (What do the following win cards have in common: Tendrils of Agony, Grindstone, Helm of Obedience, Goblin Charbelcher. Hint, they all have problems against Leyline of Sanctity, which will absolutely see extensive play).
7) The deck has a built in backup win plan using Emrakul and Show and Tell.
8) CMC of combo pieces is outside of average CounterTop range (CMC 0,1, and 2 fall victim to that deck).

I am going to type these reasons up a bit more succinctly and add them to the first post.

-ktkenshinx-

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

For those not running Top, you probably should. It kind of works as a redundant combo-piece with Mind over Matter, allowing you to cycle handsize -1 cards deeper into your library if you so chose (tap Top, discard a card to untap, tap it again, etc).

[Verystrait42]

I've been looking through the thread, and love a lot of the ideas for the deck. I figured I would post the Mono-U list I came up with, has been working pretty well. Feel free to ask any questions or let me know what you think.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
17 [A] Island (2)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [EX] Mind Over Matter
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [M11] Temple Bell
4 [UL] Snap
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [US] Back to Basics
1 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [A] Meekstone

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [A] Meekstone
SB: 1 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [R] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap

[Benjammn]

I've been looking through the thread, and love a lot of the ideas for the deck. I figured I would post the Mono-U list I came up with, has been working pretty well. Feel free to ask any questions or let me know what you think.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
17 [A] Island (2)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [EX] Mind Over Matter
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [M11] Temple Bell
4 [UL] Snap
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [US] Back to Basics
1 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [A] Meekstone

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [A] Meekstone
SB: 1 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [R] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap

Shouldn't you run Academy Ruins and/or Crucible of Worlds? I don't see Intution being helpful to get your one Meekstone otherwise.

[Verystrait42]

Usually if im casting intuiton, im more worried about just getting 3 copies of the combo piece. I board into 2 more meekstones if I am really hellbent on getting it.

[eightfists8]

For those not running Top, you probably should. It kind of works as a redundant combo-piece with Mind over Matter, allowing you to cycle handsize -1 cards deeper into your library if you so chose (tap Top, discard a card to untap, tap it again, etc).

Can you explain a little more clearly how this doesn't lead to drawing top indefinately. I really want to make sure that I have this interaction right.

Thanks

[DrJones]

Here is the tip: you untap and tap the top, but only one tap puts the top on top. The other taps are tiptop tips. Tappity tappity.

[ktkenshinx]

Can you explain a little more clearly how this doesn't lead to drawing top indefinately. I really want to make sure that I have this interaction right.

Thanks
Look at the second ability on Top. The colon comes after the tap symbol. That means it is not part of the activation cost (thank God, otherwise CounterTop would be completely batty). Because of this, you can tap Top to put an activation on the stack, and then use MOM to untap Top and repeat before the first ability resolves. Now, this does not draw you your whole deck. It digs you only as many cards as you have in your hand, plus 1, into your deck. Once you draw a card off of Top, you no longer have the Top in play to use. It's not infinite, but it is strong synergy.

In regards to Verystrait42's decklist:

// Lands
17 [A] Island (2)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [EX] Mind Over Matter
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [M11] Temple Bell
4 [UL] Snap
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [US] Back to Basics
1 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [A] Meekstone

The mono blue approach is interesting and maybe more consistently fast in getting the combo online. But this seems to only be in a goldfish. The amount of options that 4 Swords to Plowshares gives you is pretty considerable. The same goes for the CounterTop engine inclusion that 4 Enlightened Tutor enables. And don't forget Moat, a singleton that I have been testing with excellent results.

Which brings me to my most important objection to your decklist. Why Intuition over Enlightened Tutor? It costs 2 more, and the only card that it gets that Tutor does not (at least, card that you would conceivably need) is Show and Tell. For only one mana, Tutor gives you the option of getting not only your main combo pieces (Bell and MOM), but also your secondary combo (CounterTop). It also allows you to run singleton silver bullets like Meekstone, Moat, Back to Basics, and so on. This gives you more slots as a deckbuilder, and gives you more options as a deck pilot.

-ktkenshinx-

[DrJones]

Mono blue has its own Moat effect in Energy Field.

[eightfists8]

[QUOTE=ktkenshinx;472426]Look at the second ability on Top. The colon comes after the tap symbol. That means it is not part of the activation cost (thank God, otherwise CounterTop would be completely batty). Because of this, you can tap Top to put an activation on the stack, and then use MOM to untap Top and repeat before the first ability resolves. Now, this does not draw you your whole deck. It digs you only as many cards as you have in your hand, plus 1, into your deck. Once you draw a card off of Top, you no longer have the Top in play to use. It's not infinite, but it is strong synergy.

The question I have is how does the 'put sdt on top of your library' effect work? When you activate MoM x times and the first resolves do you put it on top then draw it then as the rest of the activation cost resolve the 'put sdt on top of library' clause doesn't resolve as there is no sdt in play but you draw the cards anyway?

Sorry for the long sentence but its a confusing interaction.

Thanks for your help.

[Verystrait42]

Look at the second ability on Top. The colon comes after the tap symbol. That means it is not part of the activation cost (thank God, otherwise CounterTop would be completely batty). Because of this, you can tap Top to put an activation on the stack, and then use MOM to untap Top and repeat before the first ability resolves. Now, this does not draw you your whole deck. It digs you only as many cards as you have in your hand, plus 1, into your deck. Once you draw a card off of Top, you no longer have the Top in play to use. It's not infinite, but it is strong synergy.

In regards to Verystrait42's decklist:

// Lands
17 [A] Island (2)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [EX] Mind Over Matter
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [M11] Temple Bell
4 [UL] Snap
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [US] Back to Basics
1 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [A] Meekstone

The mono blue approach is interesting and maybe more consistently fast in getting the combo online. But this seems to only be in a goldfish. The amount of options that 4 Swords to Plowshares gives you is pretty considerable. The same goes for the CounterTop engine inclusion that 4 Enlightened Tutor enables. And don't forget Moat, a singleton that I have been testing with excellent results.

Which brings me to my most important objection to your decklist. Why Intuition over Enlightened Tutor? It costs 2 more, and the only card that it gets that Tutor does not (at least, card that you would conceivably need) is Show and Tell. For only one mana, Tutor gives you the option of getting not only your main combo pieces (Bell and MOM), but also your secondary combo (CounterTop). It also allows you to run singleton silver bullets like Meekstone, Moat, Back to Basics, and so on. This gives you more slots as a deckbuilder, and gives you more options as a deck pilot.

-ktkenshinx-

Creatures aren't usually a problem, as the consistency makes this deck go off by turn 6 at the latest with some backup. Snap is pleanty to work off of. The reason I went with mono-blue is because I wanted to run a high tides shell for the deck, and if I splashed tundra and white, I wouldn't really be able to play the back to basics main. I could see the tutor being nice to look for the combo pieces and silver bullets against decks, but it seems like I have enough dig that I am never missing the combo, which makes it so I don't really need the aforementioned silver bullets. I defenitley understand what you are saying and I think it could be improved.

[ktkenshinx]

Creatures aren't usually a problem, as the consistency makes this deck go off by turn 6 at the latest with some backup. Snap is pleanty to work off of. The reason I went with mono-blue is because I wanted to run a high tides shell for the deck, and if I splashed tundra and white, I wouldn't really be able to play the back to basics main. I could see the tutor being nice to look for the combo pieces and silver bullets against decks, but it seems like I have enough dig that I am never missing the combo, which makes it so I don't really need the aforementioned silver bullets. I defenitley understand what you are saying and I think it could be improved.
In the post ANT world, if indeed we can call it that, Zoo is probably going to be pretty darn prevalent. Qasali Pridemage is a big problem for this deck, and your current build basically folds if it resolves. In addition, Zoo has a fast clock (turn 4 without blockers), so a reliable "turn 6" win is not what we should be going for. This is not a blazing fast combo ala Spanish Inquisition. This is a disciplined and resilient combo that needs a control backup base.

Now, if Zoo didn't exist, or at least didn't run Pridemage, then I would agree that a mono blue version could work. But Pridemage does exist, and mono blue has few options in dealing with the cat, except for artifact choices like Needle and Explosives. White not only gives you Swords, which answers the Pridemage, but also gives you access to Moat (which is better than Energy Field in most situations), and Enlightened Tutor, which essentially functions as a souped up Mystical Tutor in this deck. And we all know how good she was.

I like the maindeck Back to Basics in your list, as well as the Spell Pierces; have you tested both Pierce and Daze and found that Pierce was just better?

-ktkenshinx-

[Verystrait42]

Daze just hindered development to the point that spell pierce was always more relevant. I think I'll tryout your version and then I will be able to compare the two. Is there a full updated list somewhere?

Edit: I tried to write up a list for your version with the cards suggested and I am completly lost on the manabase. No idea how many this one should run or what they should be.

[redferne]

Emrakul the Aeons Torn's trigger is vulnerable to graveyard hate (Extirpate being worst) and Stifle. Darksteel Colossus / Progenitus don't, plus the latter pitches to Force of Will and a 2 turn clock when S&Ted.
I agree with Verystrait42, Daze's land return hurts. Spell Snare / Spell Pierce?
What about 1st turn drop of a Mystic Remora, for game stalling and building up lands?

EDIT:
>Tap their lands before you go off. No extirpate or stifle.
Sure, but why even leave an option of that happening? You want always have enough cards in hand to tap all their mana, in that situation you not only have to worry about G sources but B aswell. Progenitus shuts down all of that and you just don't have to counter their Tormod's Crypts etc.

[Verystrait42]

Tap their lands before you go off. No extirpate or stifle. You can also tap their Crypt before you go off. I would rather have the Emarkul because its much better off of the Show and Tells. Also, being a cautious player, I really tap down their stuff no matter what colors they are. Its just safer.

[swarm187]

I agree with ktkenshinx in respects to how this deck shapes up in the current meta game. Qasali Pridemage gets maindecked in all Zoo builds, and sideboarded in almost every other deck that runs those colors, i.e. New Horizons, Aggro Loam, etc. That card gets through half of the counterspells that were listed in the mono-blue decklist. Not to mention, M11 gives players the option of running Warpriest of Thune if they're running control builds like Landstill/CounterTop/Quinn/etc. that don't have access to green.

While I like this combo idea, I feel like the shell has to be control. Fishing for your peices is awesome, but sort of irrelevant if you can't protect them once they get on the board. IMO this screams UW shell all the way, with CounterTop as the main control element and E.Tutors to fetch your peices once you've established board control.

[Verystrait42]

I would love to test the U/W build, but I'm not the best of deck builders, so does anyone have the list?

[anjo]

Played this version of the deck yesterday:

// Lands (21)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
8 Island
1 Swamp
2 Ancient Tomb

// Creatures (4)
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells (35)

2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize

4 Temple Bell
4 Show and Tell
4 Mind Over Matter

// Sideboard (15)
3 Extirpate
2 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
3 Gigadrowse
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 Duress
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt



The tournament was 4 rounds straight swiss so no big tournament. Went 4-0 by beating:
* White Stax
* UB Dreadstill
* Combo Elves
* CB-Thopter

What do you guys think of this list?

[unicoerner]

I never played this deck, but i am interested in it.
Seeing your list: Why Iona? I like it in the side vs Combo, but than more as a 4 of, becasue you need it early vs them.
I am a big fan of Jace, but when you hit the point where you have 3 Mana and more this deck should have better things to do.
Ancient Tombs should be a 4 of in this deck, because you can drop Show and Tell more frequently on turn 2.

Seeing your results you did a lot right.

[Pastorofmuppets]

So why is Countertop not being run in here?

[Gammadoom]

So why is Countertop not being run in here?

Probably due to the insane mana curve in the deck. Counterbalance doesn't seem like it would be particularly reliable here.

[anjo]

Iona: Good i my metagame and with lim-dul it's enought with 1
Jace: Very good in the control-matchup where you don't need to be fast
Ancient Tombs: Don't want to play more because wasteland becomes annoying
Counterbalance: What does it accomplish? Doesn't protect the combo.

Played again today

R1 2-0 vs Merfolk
R2 2-1 vs Combo Elves
R3 1-2 vs Zoo (with 4 Null Rod...)
R4 2-0 Faeries

[Verystrait42]

I like your list anjo, and seems pretty successful, but why black? Wouldn't you rather have Tutor over vault?

[ktkenshinx]

Played this version of the deck yesterday:

// Lands (21)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
8 Island
1 Swamp
2 Ancient Tomb

// Creatures (4)
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells (35)

2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize

4 Temple Bell
4 Show and Tell
4 Mind Over Matter

// Sideboard (15)
3 Extirpate
2 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
3 Gigadrowse
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 Duress
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt



The tournament was 4 rounds straight swiss so no big tournament. Went 4-0 by beating:
* White Stax
* UB Dreadstill
* Combo Elves
* CB-Thopter

What do you guys think of this list?

I am happy to hear about your success with this list. I have been testing a similar list online, but with White instead of Black. Here is my list:

The Enlightenment
Lands: 22
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
3 Saprazzan Skerry
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures: 2
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Combo: 10
4 Mind Over Matter
3 Temple Bell
3 Show and Tell

Tutor and Draw: 8
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm

Toolbox: 7
1 Moat
1 Meekstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

Disruption and Removal: 11
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce

Sideboard: 15
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Orim’s Chant
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Humility
3 Krosan Grip
2 Carpet of Flowers

The sideboard is still going through some changes, but the main body of the deck has been working fairly well. A few card choices explained:

3 Temple Bell/4 MOM: I learned early on that 4 MOM was not a bad idea. If nothing else, the excess MOM's pitch to your Force of Wills. So why 3 Bell? Doesn't this card help find your combo piece, in addition to being an integral element of the deck? The answer in practice is, "Sort of." There are only so many times you really want to activate Bell if you aren't comboing out. Even EOT activations can hurt you, especially if your opponent is playing anything controlling. Moreover, it's not a blue card, and we want to make sure we have a consistent FOW pitch-base; the inclusion of so many artifacts and white cards threatens to dilute that.

Moat: Excellent against Merfolk, Goblins, and New Horizons. Less excellent against Zoo owing to the obnoxious Pridemage, but still quite powerful. Humility got the nod for the maindeck slot here, but Moat is just better against Goblins and Merfolk, although if more builds increase the number of Coralhelm Commanders, this might change.

Pithing Needle: Maindeck answer to Pridemage, and general utility. Also useful against Wasteland and Top.

Swords to Plowshares: In an aggro heavy metagame (which GP Columbus will probably prove is the current state of affairs), maindeck removal is invaluable. If aggro doesn't perform as wildly as people expect it to at Columbus, then this might change.

Spell Pierce: Why not Daze? We are already running a combo that's on the slow side. We also don't have too many tempo-abusing cards for Daze to synergize with. Daze slows us down, but Pierce does not.

No Ponder?: On turn 1 you want to be doing an EOT Tutor or using Spell Pierce against Thoughtseize or Top. You also don't want a Merfolk blowout with Cursecatcher or Daze against your own turn 1 Ponder.

Jace seems like a strong option in that control matchup. My only problem is that a lot of "control decks" are also running enough ways to deal with Jace; Thopters most readily come to mind. To anyone who tested this: what were your experiences with him in actual games?

-ktkenshinx-

[Verystrait42]

Thanks for the list, im going to do some heavy testing with it and get back to you.

[msedlak]

The Enlightenment is a cool enough sounding name but I think since Mind Over Matter = MoM the deck should be called Ma Bell. :laugh:

[Q-Ball]

I've been testing a similar list, but with a Stax player always around, some kind of bounce or EE is really necessary.
I've been calling it MoB though.

Mind over Bell

[anjo]

Mind Over Bell You (MOBY Deck)

// Lands (21)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
7 Island
1 Swamp
2 Ancient Tomb

// Creatures (5)
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells (34)

4 Brainstorm
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Intuition
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
1 Duress
4 Thoughtseize

4 Temple Bell
4 Show and Tell
4 Mind Over Matter

// Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
2 Gigadrowse
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Form of the Dragon
1 Duress

R1 Lands 2-1
R2 Elves 2-0
R3 UW-Tempo 2-1
R4+R5 Draw

1/4-final CB-top 2-0
1/2-final Landstill 2-0
Final Split with Merfolk

So I won a Timetwister with the deck :=)

There are som loose slots in the sideboard but i don't know what to change.

[death]

Mono-U Chalice Bell anyone?

4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Progenitus
4 Mind Over Matter
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Intuition

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Temple Bell
2 Trinisphere
4 Chrome Mox

12 Island
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Sideboard:
4 Stifle
2 Trinisphere
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle
1 Wipe Away

[SageOwl]

What about dispel for the daze/peirce slot, it counters counters....

unless you wanted to be able to counter duress and such....then I would go with spell pierce.

[Sleep Well]

Hey guys, I'd like to point out this list from the following link http://magicdailynews.com/20100813.html
He placed 2nd but only out of a 10-man event.


2 Frost Titan
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Temple Bell
4 Trinisphere
4 Mind Over Matter
4 Propaganda
4 Show and Tell
4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Intuition

12 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors

SB:
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Form of Dragon
2 Wipe Away
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

He seems to run a stax shell with the combo included, I think Frost Titan is an interesting inclusion, it by itself is a powerful beater, and can even tap down up to 2 green sources after casting than attacking on the following turn. I also love form of dragon in the board. Thoughts?

[death]

In case no one noticed: Frost Titan + Trinisphere is tech.

[anjo]

GP Gothenburg (Legacy sideevent with ~130 players)

Mind Over Bell You (MOBY Deck)

// Lands (21)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
7 Island
1 Swamp
2 Ancient Tomb

// Creatures (4)
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells (35)

4 Brainstorm
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Intuition
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Form of the Dragon

4 Force of Will
1 Duress
4 Thoughtseize

4 Temple Bell
4 Show and Tell
4 Mind Over Matter

// Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
1 Duress

R1 No-Bant 2-0
R2 Rock 2-0
R3 Team America 2-0
R4 Rock 1-1 (was 1 extra-round from winning...)
R5 ANT 2-0
R6 Madness 2-1
R7 He conceded, he was only guy at 6-0
R8 ID

Top8 split (IPA-draft (24 boosters), 9 M11 boosters and €175 i store credit each)

[Antonius]

I came up with this rough draft a couple days ago and am testing it now:

24 Island

4 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Force
3 Spell Snare
2 Cryptic Command

3 Temple Bell
3 Mind over Matter
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda

4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight

sb--

2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Thwart
1 Foil
3 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
3 Tormod's

So, yeah, its a stall engine focused on playing the combo the 'fair' way. I haven't been able to test the stall engine against zoo yet, but so far its bought enough time against decks like new horizons, etc. The problem is playing through countermagic, which is why Teferi is in the board. Oh, and plan B is the obvious rape rape with b2b.

[Kagehisa]

Here is a core I would like to try :

The combo itself:
4 Mind over Matter
4 Temple Bell

The Tutors:
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Transmute Artifact

The accelerators:
4 Show and Tell
4 Reshape
4 Grim Monolith
1-4 Lotus Bloom

The artifacts needed to cast Reshape or Transmute Artifact :

4 Fieldmist Borderpost (W/U)
4 Mistvein Borderpost (B/U)
X Sensei's Divining Top ?
X Mox Opal ?
X Mox Chrome ?
X Pentad Prism ?
X Chromatic Star ?
X Terrarion ?
X Everflowing Chalice ?
x Engineered Explosives ?


There are 2 ways to get MoM in play turn 3 : Show and Tell and Reshape with Lotus Bloom :
*Show and Tell make a possible MoM drop turn 3 (and an alternative win).
*Reshape (and Transmute Artifact) is here to cheat Lotus Bloom turn 2. With 3 lands on turn 3 and a Lotus Bloom in play, you can hard cast MoM. Reshape need a sacrifice. I have not found the best artifact for it but it has to gather these conditions :
_this artifact costs 1 or less because it has to be played turn 1 for a turn 2 Reshape.it could be a Borderpost but the Borderposts are for Transmute Artifact.
_if possible, it cantrips when it comes in play or is sacrificed with Reshape. (Chromatic Star or Terrarion ?)


*Transmute Artifact is here to find Temple Bell. Play Transmute Artifact, sacrifice a Borderpost, search and put in play Temple Bell.
*The 8 Borderposts are 3cmc artifacts that can be cheated and played turn 1. They are mana sources immune to Wasteland and similar manadenial. Transmute Artifact can transmute them into Temple Bell.

I just give some examples of play :
a)
Turn 1
Land A (a basicland)
Play a Borderpost
Turn 2
Replay Land A
Turn 3
Land B
Show and Tell---->MoM
4 cards on the play/5 cards on the draw in hand

OR

Turn 1
Land A
Turn 2
Land B
Play a borderpost
Turn 3
Replay land A/B
Play Show and Tell----> MoM
4 cards on the play/5 cards on the draw in hand

*with Temple Bell and 3 or 4 others cards:
Use MoM, discard 3 cards to untap 3 lands and play Temple Bell.
*with Transmute Artifact and 3 or 4 others cards:
Use MoM, discard 2 cards to untap 2 lands and play Transmute Artifact (not Reshape) and sacrifice Fieldmist Borderpost----> Temple Bell.
COMBO

b)
Turn 1
Land A
Play Enlightened Tutor----> MoM
Turn 2
Land B
Play a Borderpost
Turn 3
Replay Land A/B
Show and Tell----> MoM
3 cards on the play/4 cards on the draw in hand
*with Temple Bell and 2 or 3 others cards:
Combo next turn (turn 4).
*with Transmute Artifact and 2 or 3 others cards:
Use MoM, discard 2 cards to untap 2 lands and play Transmute Artifact (not Reshape) and sacrifice Fieldmist Borderpost----> Temple Bell
COMBO

c)
Turn 1
Land
Play 1 or less cmc artifact (Terrarion or Chromatic Star?)
Turn 2
Land
Play Reshape or Transmute Artifact----> Lotus Bloom
Turn 3
Land
Sacrifice Lotus Bloom and cast MoM
_4 cards on the play/5 cards on the draw in hand if the artifact was a cantrip. (Chromatic Star for example)
*with Temple Bell and 3 or 4 others cards in hand
Use MoM, discard 3 cards to untap to 3 lands and play Temple Bell.
*with Enlightened Tutor and 3 or 4 others cards in hand
Combo next turn
_3 cards on the play/4 cards on the draw in hand if the artifact wasn't a cantrip. (Engineered Explosives for example)
*with Temple Bell or Enlightened Tutor and 2 or 3 others cards
Combo next turn

d)
Turn 1
Land (a basicland)
Play a Borderpost
Turn 2
Replay the Land
Play a 0 cmc artifact. In this case, a 1 cmc artifact wouldn't work. You have 2 manas and Reshape costs 2 manas.
Play Reshape, sacrifice the 0 cmc artifact, get Lotus Bloom on play.
Turn 3
Land
Sacrifice Lotus Bloom and cast MoM
4 cards on the play/5 cards on the draw in hand

*with Temple Bell in and 3 or 4 others cards in hand
Use MoM, discard 3 cards to untap 3 lands (2 lands and the Borderpost...) and cast Temple Bell
*with Transmute Artifact and 3 or 4 others cards in hand
Use MoM, discard 2 cards to untap 2 lands, cast Transmute Artifact, sacrifice the 3 cmc Borderpost and get Temple Bell
*with Enlightened Tutor and 3 or 4 others cards in hand
Combo next turn

Et cetera.

Some problems : Reshape cannot get Temple Bell easily : it needs 5 manas and a sacrifice. That's why Reshape and Transmute have different functions. Maybe the solution would be Grim Monolith.

It would be like...
Turn 1
Land
Turn 2
Land
Play Grim Monolith
Turn 3
Land
Play Show and Tell
Drop MoM
3 cards on the play/4 cards on the draw

*with Reshape and 2 or 3 others cards in hand
Use MoM, discard 2 cards to untap 2 lands, tap Grim Monolith (3UU in pool) cast Reshape, sacrifice Grim Monolith and get Temple Bell.
COMBO
*with Transmute Artifact and 2 or 3 others cards
Use MoM, discard 2 cards to untap 2 lands, tap Grim Monolith (3UU in pool) cast Transmute Artifact, sacrifice Grim Monolith and get Temple Bell. (if you're on the draw, you can use MoM, discard 3 cards to untap 3 lands, cast Transmute Artifact for 1UU and sacrifice the 2 cmc Grim Moonolith.

If there are some mistakes, correct me.

[Beware]

I feel like this could be really good in a more Solidarity type shell.