Poll: Is Legacy More or Less Fun Without Mystical Tutor?

[Smmenen]

The DCI believes that Legacy is more fun without Mystical Tutor. Whether you play a Mystical Tutor deck or not, do you think the format is more or less fun without it? Do you enjoy playing in the Legacy format more or less with Mystical Tutor legal?

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I vote "meh". I didn't play it, and for those who did, there are other cards/decks out there. Banning one card(even if it were Goyf or FoW that get played in so0o0o many decks) doesn't change the game for me. With tens of thousands of cards and millions of opportunities, losing Mystical just means people need to think about new strategies. Which, if you ask me, is what Magic is all about; a strategy game that requires thought/skill/ attention...ok,i change my vote. I think it's "more fun" based on the fact that it resets some players, but it could have been any card that did this.

[Smmenen]

If a mod wants to edit the poll to add a third option: Not Sure, that would be great.

I didn't play Mystical Tutor decks either (except, Flash, of course), but I think that the format will be less fun because it is less diverse. I think the format was more interesting with Mystical Tutor in it, than less, and also more fun.

[Rune]

Less fun. All the tier 1 strategies basically revolve around beatdown now. Beatdown with creatures that are mostly standard legal. Such a strange coincidence, really.

[anonymos]

I have to kind of agree with Kikoo on this one. Now that it's all about beating down with stupid guys, some of the finesse of the format is gone. At least before you had reliable combo for an option. I think it adds flavor to what's available. I was hoping that it was going to be a pre-emptive thing for something from M11, but it isn't looking like it. Now I'm rather disappointed that they did something so silly. Sure, there was an initial outcry about reanimator because it was really consistent. Then people realized the sky wasn't falling and it was beatable. The ANT thing was just not being played well, so it wasn't really an issue in the US metagame.

My next banned prediction is Wrath of God simply because it hinders beatdown strategies too much. /sarcasm

[godryk]

I think we need like a month or so to know. Hell, we haven't even had our first Mystical-free weekend...

[DrJones]

I have my playset of Mystical Tutors since Mirage was released and never thought of them as specially funny cards, in fact, I barely remember the last time I played with them, I must be one of those gentlemen that chose not to play decks with Mystical Tutor in tournaments.

[mujadaddy]

I think we need like a month or so to know. Truth.

I voted yes, but that's because I still fear Serra Angels, and I think the format could use some slowing down.

[mchainmail]

I think we need like a month or so to know. Hell, we haven't even had our first Mystical-free weekend...


Wait, you mean the 22 copies of mystical between the 69 players on Saturday wasn't a Mystical-free weekend?

[dontbiteitholmes]

If a mod wants to edit the poll to add a third option: Not Sure, that would be great.

I didn't play Mystical Tutor decks either (except, Flash, of course), but I think that the format will be less fun because it is less diverse. I think the format was more interesting with Mystical Tutor in it, than less, and also more fun.

I don't know. Mystical Tutor being banned ends all of 2 decks, and makes how many decks more playable? I mean control is now actually viable much more than it was a month ago. There is no way any control deck without massive hate and a lucky break could ever beat ANT. It always made be laugh when people thought there mono-blue control deck somehow had a chance of beating ANT, that is just not possible if the ANT player is any good. On a related note Reanimator made playing a mono-colored deck very dangerous, now playing mono-colored is a much better option.

[majikal]

Because we can really determine this the day after Mystical Tutor leaves the format? Someone should lock this thread and reopen it in a month.

[Vacrix]

More fun. It enabled 2 OP decks that any half-wit could play.

[Jander78]

If a mod wants to edit the poll to add a third option: Not Sure, that would be great.

I didn't play Mystical Tutor decks either (except, Flash, of course), but I think that the format will be less fun because it is less diverse. I think the format was more interesting with Mystical Tutor in it, than less, and also more fun.
I think the format will actually be more diverse since it opens up control decks to actually be viable. The consistency that Mystical Tutor provided for both ANT and Reanimator made pure control a horrible choice in almost any environment. Now pure control decks stand to be back in the top tier. There are other combo decks (including altered versions of both of the previously named decks) that may be now be viable, so I would argue that the format has the potential to be more diverse.

[lordofthepit]

I voted less fun.

Previously, we had Tier 1 aggro, control, and combo decks, along with everything in between.

Now, we'll probably have more aggro and an increased emphasis on permanent-based board control with decks like 43 Lands, Stax, CounterThopter, Enchantress, etc., some of which I can tolerate or even enjoy playing against, but which on the whole is going to be extremely unfortunate. At least I might not need to take my sleep medication anymore.

[Malakai]

I think the format will actually be more diverse since it opens up control decks to actually be viable. The consistency that Mystical Tutor provided for both ANT and Reanimator made pure control a horrible choice in almost any environment. Now pure control decks stand to be back in the top tier. There are other combo decks (including altered versions of both of the previously named decks) that may be now be viable, so I would argue that the format has the potential to be more diverse.

What? The control decks weren't losing to combo.

[Malakai]

I don't know. Mystical Tutor being banned ends all of 2 decks, and makes how many decks more playable? I mean control is now actually viable much more than it was a month ago. There is no way any control deck without massive hate and a lucky break could ever beat ANT. It always made be laugh when people thought there mono-blue control deck somehow had a chance of beating ANT, that is just not possible if the ANT player is any good.

Except for the part where it's impossible for them to win through Counterbalance. Sure, they could try tutoring for Wipe Away in response, or Grip, but it's not that difficult to counter a tutor.

[Jander78]

What? The control decks weren't losing to combo.
Both of those decks are designed to fight through control. A strong pilot of either deck should be able to fight through a control deck without too much of an issue. Unless the control deck was heavily tailored to handle combo (and forfeit most of its aggro matchups), control would have a tough time with either of those decks.

[Jak]

What? The control decks weren't losing to combo.

Control decks weren't just losing to combo, they were losing to aggro too. Trying to be built to beat both made them pretty terrible. With a meta shift that hurts the combo decks slightly, aggro will be a little better. Control decks can focus more on beating aggro and still have a decent combo matchup.

[Bardo]

Because we can really determine this the day after Mystical Tutor leaves the format? Someone should lock this thread and reopen it in a month.

We'll leave this open since it's not harming anything, but I agree in principle. Instead of a month, I think we'll need 3-6 months of gameplay to say with actual experience of the format w/o Mystical to see if it's more or less fun.

Anyway, I voted "yes," even though it's pretty abstract. What's "fun" is wildly subjective and squishy. I've played against ANT and High Tide players who truly and legitimately enjoy taking 5 minute turns doing this and doing that while while I'm bored out of my skull. That's not the kind of game I find "fun," but who am I to judge?

Overall, I find most combo decks to be very much a self-gratifying masturbatory experience. Now, I like jerking off just as much as anyone, but it's definitely more "fun" when you're doing it with someone else.

On that twisted basis, I'm good with Mystical gone and think the format will be more "fun" in the way I define that term.

[scrumdogg]

What he said, plus I firmly believe that this banning will open up 'playability space' for a bunch of decks & archetypes as the format shifts & adjusts.

[mujadaddy]

I voted "yes,"

I realized after I posted that I did this too, even though it's an OR question not a YES/NO one.


I like jerking off just as much as anyone, but it's definitely more "fun" when you're doing it with someone else.This post is useless w/o pics.

[paK0]

More fun.

Idiot-Combo.decs disappeard and control might finally be playable again.

At east that is what I hope for and it might actually be reasonable, I think ~a month after Columbus we will have our new metagame in gear.

[menace13]

Dammit who are these 16 that voted undecided? I hate those types.

[clavio]

Mystical saw about zero play until Ad Nauseam got printed. Tendrils combo and reanimator are still very playable. I think everyone is overreacting.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I seriously doubt that Mystical's banning is going to cause enough of a shake-up to somehow make the proverbial "control decks" any good. The format is still going to be incredibly diverse, and there will still be plenty of non-beatdown decks to contend with. No deck that was unplayable last month will suddenly become amazing this month.

All the banning really did was make Reanimator and ANT less consistent and resilient. Realize that those decks don't really lose any raw power with Mystical gone; most of their best draws are still intact. Sure, it's a little less likely for your opponent to find and cast Entomb->Reanimate by the second turn, now, but I don't know how much solace that will be the next time you get blown out by it, anyway.

To me, making non-dominant decks less consistent doesn't sound like a way to make the format more fun.

[denial]

I think the format will actually be more diverse since it opens up control decks to actually be viable.

The format gets more diverse every time they print a new block. No reason to prematurely rush things along. If anything, they should have just printed a better hate card.


I seriously doubt that Mystical's banning is going to cause enough of a shake-up to somehow make the proverbial "control decks" any good.

Exactly.

[Mayk0l]

More fun.

I was getting really tired of losing to turn 1 Duress taking FoW, Mystical into Ad Nauseam for the loss 7 times / tournament.

Good riddance.

[Kuma]

Meh.

I voted "don't know." The ban shouldn't do anything to the format. Storm isn't weaker, however it is much harder to play. The pilots have less control over what goes on, and will need to be able to see more lines of play to put up the same results. Reanimator is now half a turn slower and loses a lot of sideboard flexibility. It's probably tier 1.5 instead of tier 1.

The only way the ban affects the format significantly is if players act like the sky is falling and decide not to play Storm and Reanimator despite their continued strength.

In any case, I rarely played decks with Mystical Tutor, so if anything this helps me.

[woremak]

I voted less, mostly because with mystical tutor gone, every non-ichorid combo deck is kind of $$$.

[Media314r8]

More fun, it creates fewer 'whoops, i win' games that cannot be disrupted even by free counterspells. I can see why wizards did this, they want magic to be about the combat zone, and this means fewer games where an aggro decks sits down against reanimator or ANT and doesn't actually get to play Magic against their opponent.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Except for the part where it's impossible for them to win through Counterbalance. Sure, they could try tutoring for Wipe Away in response, or Grip, but it's not that difficult to counter a tutor.
The day a resolved Countertop isn't good against combo is the day I quit Legacy. There is nowhere to go if you don't have free counters and a fast clock vs. ANT though. There are lots of good anti-combo cards available to non-blue that should slow a combo deck down enough to win, but Mystical Tutor didn't let that happen. Mystical Tutor effectively let combo have a 45 card sideboard. I mean 8-9x silver bullets, multiply those by 5 because a tutor can get one anytime, and you only have to answer most hate cards the turn you go off. You could be playing Zoo, drop a first turn Wild Nactyl, second turn Cannonist, third turn Canonist and another Nacytl with a Fireblast in hand and lose because your opponent brought in 1x Echoing Truth, EOT tutored for it, untapped and comboed out. I'm not saying combo should always lose to 2x Canonist, but they should have to make a real decision when it comes to sideboarding like every other deck. I mean every non-blue deck had to bring in 4-8 anti-combo cards to really increase the odds of beating ANT and ANT could side in 1-2 cards that answered every possible answer and have room for 9 silver bullets in the sideboard with no decreased consistancy. Talk about having your fucking cake and eating it too.


Meh.

I voted "don't know." The ban shouldn't do anything to the format. Storm isn't weaker, however it is much harder to play. The pilots have less control over what goes on, and will need to be able to see more lines of play to put up the same results. Reanimator is now half a turn slower and loses a lot of sideboard flexibility. It's probably tier 1.5 instead of tier 1.

The only way the ban affects the format significantly is if players act like the sky is falling and decide not to play Storm and Reanimator despite their continued strength.

In any case, I rarely played decks with Mystical Tutor, so if anything this helps me.

Reanimator stopped being tier 1 the day people started aggressively sideboarding against it. Seriously it had like 2 strong tournaments. Storm is much weaker because they lose the sideboard flexibility and now have to focus on specific answers and sideboard more aggressively to counter hate cards. Now instead of being able to grab 1 of every hate card whenever they will need to pick the 2-3 best ones and leave fringe stuff like Perish or Sadistic Sacrament to the decks they probably belong in. Control just got a lot better, because they just lost an impossible matchup. Mono-color decks just got a lot better, because Iona just got a lot less realistic. I'm thinking the first couple tournaments will see Bant go more anti-aggro tilt and a lot more of the slower control decks like Landstill or MWC being played, oh yeah, and atleast the first month I'd expect at least double the normal amount of Goblins. Whether the control decks are actually good or not we'll see. Then since the heat is off combo I'd expect actually more people to show up with combo then before, since the past few large tournaments I've been to were filled to the brim with Bant and Merfolk decks that were ANTs only truly bad matchup. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if combo won the next big tournament. In fact for the first time in a long time I can say I'd give control, combo, and aggro almost even odds on winning any given tournament.

[Rico Suave]

I think the format is more fun without Mystical Tutor.

Fun is different from person to person. Generally, I find formats more enjoyable when the best decks significantly interact with each other.

The problem at hand is that a deck like ANT does not interact with a deck like Zoo. It does not interact with Lands. None of those matches are fun for either player. This isn't to say that ANT doesn't interact with its opponent at all. In fact it interacts very much with the stack, the hand, and the mana base. But most decks don't interact on those levels.

However the DCI has decided that interacting with the board is going to be the future of Legacy, and any deck that doesn't do this isn't going to be one of those "best decks" that someone would pick to win a tournament. Sure you can still play those Reanimator and Tendrils strategies if you would like to - just don't expect that they should be good enough to warrant lots of people playing them.

As a result of banning M.Tutor, people playing the best decks will change what decks they play. They will switch from an old best deck to a new best deck. And at the end of the day, I feel there will ultimately be more interaction and that is more fun for me.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

No matter what peoples' opinions, those who liked Mystical Tutor are certainly more verbal about it than those who don't. Judging just by the white noise on the Source, you'd think MT's banning was the most grievous injury dealt to players since Chronicles. I must say, I'm not surprised there are a lot of people who dislike MT, but I am surprised it's not a bigger majority. I suspect the percentage of people who don't regularly visit forums is massively in favor of MT's ban as well, but obviously can't prove it.

Personally, I'm in favor of the ban. I played both Reanimator and ANT a fair bit, but think they unnecessarily forced out a lot of tier 2 midrange and control decks. Not crap like Landstill, but decks that are actually pretty good in combo-light metas like Lands, BGW Rock, Survival, Enchantress, etc. I like those kinds of decks because they diversify the format enough to prevent tier 1 decks from becoming too powerful without dominating the meta themselves. Powerful, consistent combo forces those kinds of decks out, which in turn forces players to play blue, anti-blue, or combo themselves.

That kind of rocks-paper-scissor crap drives me nuts; hard counters remove strategy and skill elements and replace them with too much luck and chance (i.e. the luck not to be paired with a 20% matchup, or the incredible luck it would take to win a 20% matchup). I'm much more in favor of games being decided by in-game decision making rather than matchup strength and techy hate cards. Damaging powerful combo goes a long way toward accomplishing that because it allows non-blue (non-Zoo/ Goblins) decks back into the meta, thereby limiting the power of blue. Whether it wins tournaments consistently or not, U/x combo warped the meta incredibly and it's still not dead, it's just less powerful than it was.

[dontbiteitholmes]

No matter what peoples' opinions, those who liked Mystical Tutor are certainly more verbal about it than those who don't. Judging just by the white noise on the Source, you'd think MT's banning was the most grievous injury dealt to players since Chronicles. I must say, I'm not surprised there are a lot of people who dislike MT, but I am surprised it's not a bigger majority. I suspect the percentage of people who don't regularly visit forums is massively in favor of MT's ban as well, but obviously can't prove it.

Personally, I'm in favor of the ban. I played both Reanimator and ANT a fair bit, but think they unnecessarily forced out a lot of tier 2 midrange and control decks. Not crap like Landstill, but decks that are actually pretty good in combo-light metas like Lands, BGW Rock, Survival, Enchantress, etc. I like those kinds of decks because they diversify the format enough to prevent tier 1 decks from becoming too powerful without dominating the meta themselves. Powerful, consistent combo forces those kinds of decks out, which in turn forces players to play blue, anti-blue, or combo themselves.

That kind of rocks-paper-scissor crap drives me nuts; hard counters remove strategy and skill elements and replace them with too much luck and chance (i.e. the luck not to be paired with a 20% matchup, or the incredible luck it would take to win a 20% matchup). I'm much more in favor of games being decided by in-game decision making rather than matchup strength and techy hate cards. Damaging powerful combo goes a long way toward accomplishing that because it allows non-blue (non-Zoo/ Goblins) decks back into the meta, thereby limiting the power of blue. Whether it wins tournaments consistently or not, U/x combo warped the meta incredibly and it's still not dead, it's just less powerful than it was.

I think a lot of the people who are glad MT is gone think saying they agree with MT being banned will give them the dreaded scrub label since it's not easy to agree with a banning when a lot of high profile players come out against it. It's not the easiest banning to explain either since it was far from dominant in the East Coast meta that probably houses 50% or more of the regular posters here.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

I'm not sure I understand this obsession with choosing something difficult, mastering it to some degree greater than the average person, then using that skill as a metric to look down on other people. It may sound ridiculous insecurity when reduced to that, but that's exactly what every Standard pro and most of the outspoken combo players sound like. In truth, most people could memorize the decision trees and calculations necessary to successfully play combo. But, most people choose not to because that's not why they play Magic. If that makes them scrubs, so what? It's really difficult to justify that anyone deserves a 90% matchup (let alone multiples) against other tier decks just because they prefer not to play Magic when they go to Magic tournaments.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I'm not sure I understand this obsession with choosing something difficult, mastering it to some degree greater than the average person, then using that skill as a metric to look down on other people. It may sound ridiculous insecurity when reduced to that, but that's exactly what every Standard pro and most of the outspoken combo players sound like. In truth, most people could memorize the decision trees and calculations necessary to successfully play combo. But, most people choose not to because that's not why they play Magic. If that makes them scrubs, so what? It's really difficult to justify that anyone deserves a 90% matchup (let alone multiples) against other tier decks just because they prefer not to play Magic when they go to Magic tournaments.

Quoted for Seuss. I mean Truth. I agree with thing one and thing two that was said.

[jazzykat]

After considering my actual response for a while. I will give a strong no it is not more fun now. We may obviously see some new awesome metagame appear after the banning of MT but it might have appeared anyway. If the last few SCG opens' data meant anything combo was already in check. Enough players figured out ways to beat down reanimator hardcore. I honestly wouldn't play the deck for a few months even if MT wasn't banned at all.

I understand that Magic is first and foremost a game and it''s supposed to be fun. But I really don't how much more fun a kid who brings a bad deck to a tournament that loses on turn 2 to AdNT or zoo on turn 5 is going to have. I mean if interaction and the illusion of getting to do something worthwhile is worth something then great. However, by the 3rd. tournament of getting thrashed by zoo and merfolk do you think he's coming back?

Also, with the unbanning of Grim Monolith a lot of new great work has been done on decks with CotV and 3sphere that are actually OK. With combo as a solid pillar fo the metagame they actually had a place in it. I'm really not sure how these decks will ever beat Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk so I think they may continue to stay on the sidelines.

I realize not everyone can agree what is healthy/unhealthy for the format but IMO the careful unbanning of cards opens up more design space and archetypes than banning things and just knocking progress back some years or months. NOTE: None of this applies to Flash, it was a mistake not to ban it before the GP and it was an abomination that needed to be put down.

[cjva]

I voted "less fun" but thats all based on the fact that I don't like it when DCI bans card for what they see as "unfun".

Truth to be told, Legacy was open and diverse, it doesnt need to be more open. We don't need more options when we pick a deck.

What i would consider the basis for a fun format would be if DCI sticked to a principle of banning cards based on tournament data, and had full transparancy in how and why they make the decision. The explanation when they ban mystical, first and foremost the thoughts about a "gentlemen's agreement" get me to think about the ill informed explanation when they restricted Flash in vintage "omfg! they can win on turn zero!!!!111!!!1one!1one!!"

Not knowing if the cards I play today will banned soon, not being able to figure out on my own what cards are banworthy according to the DCI is unfun for me.

[Vacrix]

More or less fun is entirely contextual. Players who didn't have either deck in their local metagame are obviously going to be ambivalent, while the players who played these decks are obviously pissed, while players who disliked these 'unfair' decks are obviously happy. In context of the metagame as a whole, I think its good that we don't have easy decks to pilot that win quickly, regardless of my bias against ANT.