Life Gain concept

[Galroth]

I've had a multiplayer life-gain deck for some time now, but it was always cute at best and never competitive. With some of the new cards from M11, I was hoping to take the deck to the next step. This thread is purely for development, as I'm uncertain what direction to take things.

Here's the cards I want to build around:

Auriok Champion
Soul Warden
Soul's Attendant
Knight of Meadowgrain
Ajani Pridemate (http://mtgsalvation.com/m11-magic-2011-spoiler.html)
Serra Ascendant (http://mtgsalvation.com/m11-magic-2011-spoiler.html)

There are a number of other potential cards that could be used, but I don't know if they're just cute, rather than actually useful. Here are some thoughts:

Ivory Tower
Well of Lost Dreams
Searing Meditation
Test of Endurance

So what kind of deck would this fit in? Do something similar to Death&Taxes? Bring in some Aether Vial and include some equipment and Stoneforge Mystic

[Hanni]

Stoneforge Mystic and equipment sounds like a great idea, especially when alot of equipment choices out there have lifegain. Equipment is going to improve your 1/1 dorks immensely.

Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of Light and Shadow, and Basilisk Collar are the ones that come to mind.

[chokin]

Loxodon Warhammer and Behemoth Sledge make your guys bigger and have lifegain too. I'm not saying they're the best, but they are options to consider.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

With this many white cards, and this many creatures that cost :w: already in the list of stuff you want to use, Martyr of Sands and Proclamation of Rebirth should absolutely make any list that goes with this theme. Figure of Destiny is probably also worth looking into, since he gives you a nice recurring dude/win-con, although I doubt he should be a four-of. I would start with something like 4 Martyr, 2 Proclamation, 1 Figure, as far as those cards.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Divinity of Pride & Exalted Angel work really well with Dark Ritual. I've seen B/W work well as a lifelink deck, you'd get swords, Hymn, and Vindicate if you wanted too which is pretty good.

[Vacrix]

With this many white cards, and this many creatures that cost :w: already in the list of stuff you want to use, Martyr of Sands and Proclamation of Rebirth should absolutely make any list that goes with this theme. Figure of Destiny is probably also worth looking into, since he gives you a nice recurring dude/win-con, although I doubt he should be a four-of. I would start with something like 4 Martyr, 2 Proclamation, 1 Figure, as far as those cards.
Yes you are much better off going this route. It was half decent back in the day. Now with a decent finisher, it might see some play, especially since you can also return your win conditions to play via Proc.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Martyr of Sands and AEther Vial both seem to be doing me a fair amount of good.

[Vacrix]

Martyr of Sands and AEther Vial both seem to be doing me a fair amount of good.
Whats your list look like?

[Pastorofmuppets]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Karakas
21 Plains

// Creatures
4 Martyr of Sands
2 Eternal Dragon
2 Student of Warfare
4 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Reveillark
1 Mangara of Corondor
4 Serra Ascendant

// Spells
3 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Wrath of God
1 Moat
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 AEther Vial

// Sideboard
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst


This list has a few inherent issues, as one might assume. I commonly don't have both Karakas and Mangara, which makes me want to cut them for something else. And I keep flip-flopping between 'Lark and Ranger of Eos

[Combo Winter]

Is there any reson that this deck is better than http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33402 other than not needing 4 diamond valley's. On that note though i think Life could be very powerful in this new aggro/aggro control heavy format.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Is there any reson that this deck is better than http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33402 other than not needing 4 diamond valley's. On that note though i think Life could be very powerful in this new aggro/aggro control heavy format.

well, it doesn't fold to Wasteland, doesn't run subpar crap like Daru Spiritualist, and it powers out a 6/6 lifelink flier on turn 2.

[Benjammn]

well, it doesn't fold to Wasteland, doesn't run subpar crap like Daru Spiritualist, and it powers out a 6/6 lifelink flier on turn 2.

How do you intend to gain 10 life by T2? How do you intend to beat Zoo or Goblins or any aggressive deck when you can't get above 30 life?

[Pastorofmuppets]

How do you intend to gain 10 life by T2? How do you intend to beat Zoo or Goblins or any aggressive deck when you can't get above 30 life?

Obviously it doesn't happen very often, but Martyr with 4 white cards in hand has happened in testing. And I'm thinking Wall of Omens might assist here, and Cataclysm in place of Wrath. Also, Ascendant isn't my only wincon.

[Combo Winter]

Most versions of life are straight g/w so in no way do they fold to wasteland. Also it's insane to call daru spritulist when it can't be bolted and leads to a turn 3 infinate life with insane consistancy and can be vialed in. I think it's subpar to gain life one by one to power up a bad boltable 1/1. I mean even in your god hand turn 2 6/6 kills slower and puts the game out of reach slower than a really sub par life hand. So none of those reasons have stated why martyr proc which uses the graveyard and is turns slower while still manging to have a worse aggro matchup is better than life combo.

[EssKay]

Felidar Sovereign? Also you might want to pack some combat damage prevention like Holy Day, Angelsong, etc. You could basically stall and chump with lifelink guys until you drop a Sovereign, but it wouldn't be very consistent unless you had a way to tutor up Sovereign and/or cheat it into play.

[Nidd]

Seeing so many creatures suggested, how about Survival of the Fittest?

[Pastorofmuppets]

Most versions of life are straight g/w so in no way do they fold to wasteland. Also it's insane to call daru spritulist when it can't be bolted and leads to a turn 3 infinate life with insane consistancy and can be vialed in. I think it's subpar to gain life one by one to power up a bad boltable 1/1. I mean even in your god hand turn 2 6/6 kills slower and puts the game out of reach slower than a really sub par life hand. So none of those reasons have stated why martyr proc which uses the graveyard and is turns slower while still manging to have a worse aggro matchup is better than life combo.

What do you mean it doesn't fold to Wasteland? Sanctum and Valley are both nonbasics. And it dies to Needle. Martyr proc has 2-6 grave dependant cards, so it's not solely dependant on the graveyard. If people board in grave hate, they're just wasting slots.
And what do you mean "how do I intended to beat Goblins or Zoo"? 6 1cc removal, Martyr, Mangara, Moat, Wrath. Also, Sovereign is a bad idea.

[EssKay]

Ok, ok, how about this:

Black splash, lifegain + removal, Celestial Convergence + Vampire Hexmage!

[Combo Winter]

dimond valley doesn't make mana you play it on the turn you go off so its not like you walk into wasteland not to mention worthy cause also i never said anything about your matchups with goblins and zoo just that your aggro matchups are worse than life.deck. So can you please stop inventing stuff I said. Also You haven't responded to my original question Why is this better than life?

[Pastorofmuppets]

dimond valley doesn't make mana you play it on the turn you go off so its not like you walk into wasteland not to mention worthy cause also i never said anything about your matchups with goblins and zoo just that your aggro matchups are worse than life.deck. So can you please stop inventing stuff I said. Also You haven't responded to my original question Why is this better than life?

I wasn't talking to you for that one, cool your jets. You're getting so angry. If Life was a better-performing deck, you'd have a point in saying that this deck is worse than life. But as it stands, let's keep this thread on-topic to keep it from being Peter-Rottened.
Does anyone have any constructive comments on the list I posted?
And it's better than life because it's built around a 3-card combo, where all of its pieces do very little on their own.

[Galroth]

Wow, wasn't expecting this much input. Thank you everyone.

I tossed together the following list. It still looks a little janky, but maybe with some tweaking it could be semi-competitive. Thoughts on the list are most welcome:

//Creatures (28)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Soul Warden
4 Soul's Attendant
3 Serra Ascendant
4 Auriok Champion
4 Ajani Pridemate
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Felidar Sovereign

//Spells (11)
3 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Basilisk Collar

//Land (21)
18 Plains
3 Kjeldoran Outpost


Card Choices:

First and foremost, I included Mother of Runes and Swords to Plowshares. They're practically auto-includes in any white weenie deck. But to be honest, I'm not sure if that maxim should hold true. Am I really going to need creature removal? Between my equipment, and with half of this deck as creatures, maybe I can forgo swords for something like some card draw such as Well of Lost Dreams. I mean, if that card comes online in this deck, it's practically game win.

Kjeldoran Outpost is there just to ensure that you can gain life every turn provided that Auriok, Warden, or Attendant are out.

My concerns:

This deck is going to punt most combo matches. It may have a chance against combo decks that are hitting the life total in a single shot (Belcher or TES), but against Solidarity or Reanimator with an Iona on White. I don't see any way to win. I think this is acceptable and if combo is really rampant in your meta, that's what a sideboard is for.

Against aggro and aggro control, I speculate this deck is going to be fine. Lots of threats, plus a lot of life gain to give you time to find some way to take them down.

My biggest concern is control. A wrath effect wiping the board seems like a big trouble. This deck has little to no card advantage. Obviously the deck isn't going to roll an opponent in 4 turns, and control decks just play the long game better.

Any thoughts on that quick analysis?

[HumphreyBogardan]

Wow, wasn't expecting this much input. Thank you everyone.

I tossed together the following list. It still looks a little janky, but maybe with some tweaking it could be semi-competitive. Thoughts on the list are most welcome:

//Creatures (28)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Soul Warden
4 Soul's Attendant
3 Serra Ascendant
4 Auriok Champion
4 Ajani Pridemate
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Felidar Sovereign

//Spells (11)
3 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Basilisk Collar

//Land (21)
18 Plains
3 Kjeldoran Outpost


Card Choices:

First and foremost, I included Mother of Runes and Swords to Plowshares. They're practically auto-includes in any white weenie deck. But to be honest, I'm not sure if that maxim should hold true. Am I really going to need creature removal? Between my equipment, and with half of this deck as creatures, maybe I can forgo swords for something like some card draw such as Well of Lost Dreams. I mean, if that card comes online in this deck, it's practically game win.

Kjeldoran Outpost is there just to ensure that you can gain life every turn provided that Auriok, Warden, or Attendant are out.

My concerns:

This deck is going to punt most combo matches. It may have a chance against combo decks that are hitting the life total in a single shot (Belcher or TES), but against Solidarity or Reanimator with an Iona on White. I don't see any way to win. I think this is acceptable and if combo is really rampant in your meta, that's what a sideboard is for.

Against aggro and aggro control, I speculate this deck is going to be fine. Lots of threats, plus a lot of life gain to give you time to find some way to take them down.

My biggest concern is control. A wrath effect wiping the board seems like a big trouble. This deck has little to no card advantage. Obviously the deck isn't going to roll an opponent in 4 turns, and control decks just play the long game better.

Any thoughts on that quick analysis?

If your biggest problems are combo and control then you probably want some number of ethersworn canonist/mindbreak trap in the board. Thorn of amethyst is also a good choice. Problem with combo is G2 and 3 they bring in their hurkyl's recalls, other bounce and xantid swarm for belcher. You need to decide whether you want to have a SB to strengthen other 50/50 matches and just punt combo entirely or have 4-8 dedicated to beating combo. For control I think 4 aether vial is a must, with 2 online you'll be able to have a solid board presence pretty quick. Have you tried serra avenger? That card plus mom/jitte is an almost auto win. Most of the sweepers you'll probably see are deed and EE so some disenchants in the SB might be a good idea.

[Moxie]

Doubtless One 3W
Creature — Cleric Avatar (*/*)

Doubtless One's power and toughness are each equal to the number of Clerics on the battlefield.

Whenever Doubtless One deals damage, you gain that much life.

Could be a decent finisher.

[Hanni]

If your biggest problems are combo and control then you probably want some number of ethersworn canonist/mindbreak trap in the board. Thorn of amethyst is also a good choice. Problem with combo is G2 and 3 they bring in their hurkyl's recalls, other bounce and xantid swarm for belcher. You need to decide whether you want to have a SB to strengthen other 50/50 matches and just punt combo entirely or have 4-8 dedicated to beating combo. For control I think 4 aether vial is a must, with 2 online you'll be able to have a solid board presence pretty quick. Have you tried serra avenger? That card plus mom/jitte is an almost auto win. Most of the sweepers you'll probably see are deed and EE so some disenchants in the SB might be a good idea.


What combo decks are you referring to? Gaining alot of life makes Tendrils decks alot harder to go off against you, since they need to reach a much higher storm count than usual. That can mean that simply putting up a fast clock can race them being able to go off with a high enough storm count.

If they have EtW, you can pack EE.

Ethersworn Cannonist seems great since he slows them down further while putting up a clock. I'd argue that against TES, which is likely the most common viable Storm Tendrils deck you'll come across, that Cannonist and EE are all you need to board in.

[Pastorofmuppets]

1) with 18 non-wasteable lands, you're never going to drop Felidar Sovereign. And if you do, you'll likely already be at a low life total. If you MUST have something big, run Baneslayer
2) why no Martyr of Sands? It's arguably the best white life gain card ever printed.
3) 8 Soul Wardens is far too much. You could be running, you know, an actual threat? Maybe Kor Firewalker if you're into that kind of thing.
4) What reasons outside of budget, if you don't want to run Martyr, are there for not splashing for Goyf?
5) Dealing with Iona: AEther Vial. Merfolk is one of Reanimator's worst MU's because they can beat right past Iona and bounce Blazing Archon
6) Combo: Thorn of Amethyst.

[Vacrix]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Karakas
21 Plains

// Creatures
4 Martyr of Sands
2 Eternal Dragon
2 Student of Warfare
4 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Reveillark
1 Mangara of Corondor
4 Serra Ascendant

// Spells
3 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Wrath of God
1 Moat
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 AEther Vial

// Sideboard
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst


This list has a few inherent issues, as one might assume. I commonly don't have both Karakas and Mangara, which makes me want to cut them for something else. And I keep flip-flopping between 'Lark and Ranger of Eos
Looks sick. What do you think about Scent of Jasmine? It has the potential to put you at 30 T1 on the play. Thats pretty good IMO. I really like the idea of Ranger of Eos. I think you should definitely switch to it. It has synergy with the rest of the deck more so than Lark. Lark saves creatures but Ranger sends them to your hand, much more useful considering you want to have cards in hand to reveal to take advantage of Scent of Jasmine (if you decide to run it) and/or Marytr of Sands. Also, you might want to consider post-board Null Rod. Gravehate can hurt pretty bad. Pithing Needle is also an option but I think Nullrod is just as good, and it shuts down LED, Belcher, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, etc. in combo.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Ranger of Eos!

What about Scrying Sheets & Top?

Sideboard:

4x Runed Halo! (seriously, this card is good in so many instances, will save you vs Iona too.)

[Kangaxx]

Mourning Thrull and Nip Gwyllion are always options.

[Vacrix]

I can see Mother of Runes being an asset here too. Especially with the option to bring it back in so many ways, or fetch out more. It effectively protects your guys from removal and acts as a wall. The other thing you have to watch out for is STP and PTE. Its hard to get your lock out if its RFG. It might be worth running as a 1'of so you can fetch it out with Rangers of Eos or something.

[Nidd]

I don't want to challenge Pastorofmuppets here, but I also had an idea on how to create a life.dec

Here's my list:

Survival of the Healthiest

// Lands
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
6 Plains
6 Forest

// Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Felidar Sovereign
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Reveillark

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

It worked nicely so far and it doesn't rely solely on it's lifecombo, it also plays Goyfs and Retainer-Iona to have some sort of alternative wincondition. I really like how the Mothers protect Iona.
Reveillark and Sovereign can be considered bombs, which can help you recover after a sweeper.
I have no clue on how good this deck is, so far, but from the limited testing I had (4 games on MWS), it really does give people headaches.
And jeez, reaching 5 mana for Figurine to transform into a nice beatstick is quite possible, thanks to the Hierarchs.

[Kangaxx]

I don't want to challenge Pastorofmuppets here, but I also had an idea on how to create a life.dec

Here's my list:

Survival of the Healthiest

// Lands
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
6 Plains
6 Forest

// Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Felidar Sovereign
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Reveillark

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

It worked nicely so far and it doesn't rely solely on it's lifecombo, it also plays Goyfs and Retainer-Iona to have some sort of alternative wincondition. I really like how the Mothers protect Iona.
Reveillark and Sovereign can be considered bombs, which can help you recover after a sweeper.
I have no clue on how good this deck is, so far, but from the limited testing I had (4 games on MWS), it really does give people headaches.
And jeez, reaching 5 mana for Figurine to transform into a nice beatstick is quite possible, thanks to the Hierarchs.

Why Lark over Genesis?

[Pastorofmuppets]

Looks sick. What do you think about Scent of Jasmine? It has the potential to put you at 30 T1 on the play. Thats pretty good IMO. I really like the idea of Ranger of Eos. I think you should definitely switch to it. It has synergy with the rest of the deck more so than Lark. Lark saves creatures but Ranger sends them to your hand, much more useful considering you want to have cards in hand to reveal to take advantage of Scent of Jasmine (if you decide to run it) and/or Marytr of Sands. Also, you might want to consider post-board Null Rod. Gravehate can hurt pretty bad. Pithing Needle is also an option but I think Nullrod is just as good, and it shuts down LED, Belcher, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, etc. in combo.

Rods are amazing, and one of the few things I haven't sold from m Vintage days (I proxied power. I'm poor)
Also, SoJ is a rough one. Yeah, it's a turn faster than Martyr, but does that really matter? Martyr can at least chump or bash for a point or two when my hand is empty.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I don't want to challenge Pastorofmuppets here, but I also had an idea on how to create a life.dec

Here's my list:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm5X2b7waMc

The vid sums up your list quite well. You might want to look into non-pridemage artifact hate. I'm a big fan of Wickerbough Elder. This deck is generally less aggressive, so perhaps a more defensive duder is better.
Also, you're always welcome to challenge me. You had just better be some kind of right. How is Sovereign?

[Galroth]

The idea behind the large count of Soul Wardens, Soul's Attendants, and Auriok Champions is the synergy with cards like Ajani Pridemane and Well of Lost Dreams

Even if [card]Marty of Sands[/cards] can net you more life, it's the number of times that it triggers that matters. Otherwise, my opinion is you may as well just run the life combo.

[Pastorofmuppets]

The idea behind the large count of Soul Wardens, Soul's Attendants, and Auriok Champions is the synergy with cards like Ajani Pridemane and Well of Lost Dreams

Even if Martyr of Sands can net you more life, it's the number of times that it triggers that matters. Otherwise, my opinion is you may as well just run the life combo.

don't talk about life combo. It's bad. Also, poking your life up one at a time will work better with Pridemate, but not as well with Ascendant. Just something for you to mull over. Also, please drop sovereign. You'll almost never hit 40 life, or 6 mana, especially since Outpost sacs a plains. In fact, that's begging for a 2-for-1.

[Vacrix]

Rods are amazing, and one of the few things I haven't sold from m Vintage days (I proxied power. I'm poor)
Also, SoJ is a rough one. Yeah, it's a turn faster than Martyr, but does that really matter? Martyr can at least chump or bash for a point or two when my hand is empty.
I'm just worried that it will eat removal half the time, if not more when you are on the draw. Martyr is strongest in the first few turns of the game because that is when you will have the most cards. If the first one eats a removal spell, you'd wish you were playing SoJ instead. It really is a marginal card and is obviously weaker later in the game. At the same time, Martyr pretty much falls into the same category; its only good when you have cards in hand. On the same token, its not that bad. Even "Gain 6 life for W" in the mid game is pretty dam good IMO. I think you should run 4.

[Galroth]

Be so kind as to not state what I should and shouldn't talk about on the thread that I created requesting help brainstorming an idea.

I think that of the two Ajani Pridemate is the better. Reaching 30 life consistently will be difficult also. Too many fast aggro decks will never let a person reach it without some very specific conditions arising. Conversely it should be quite easy for Pridemate to become a 4/4 or 5/5 very quickly. That said, in order to meet that condition you'd probably want to run all 12 of the gain 1 life creatures. And I think that may dilute the deck from better choices too much to be worth it. It would require testing.

I can see dropping Sovereign, as it is a win-more. The only time I could really see it useful is in the control match-up where it's nice to have a win condition that doesn't require attacking.

In retrospect I think Outpost was just a nostalgic fancy. Replacing Outpost with Elspeth is superior in just about every regard, and it would help the control match-up I was concerned over.

[Nidd]

The vid sums up your list quite well. You might want to look into non-pridemage artifact hate. I'm a big fan of Wickerbough Elder. This deck is generally less aggressive, so perhaps a more defensive duder is better.
Also, you're always welcome to challenge me. You had just better be some kind of right. How is Sovereign?
Okay, you officially managed to weird me out.

A 1-of Wickerbough Elder should be doable, but I don't want to lower the count of White spells too much because of Martyr.
Sovereign, so far, hasn't won me a single game and will be pulled out, as a consequence.

Replacing Lark with Genesis would've been too easy...:(

[Darkenslight]

Phantom Nishoba (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=37113)? I mean, at the top of the curve it's pretty decent, AND it recurs with 'Lark.

Also, would you ever consider Monk Realist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5708) as anti-enchantment tech? IT hits, Dream Halls, Mind over Matter, and other goodies.

[Vacrix]

Be so kind as to not state what I should and shouldn't talk about on the thread that I created requesting help brainstorming an idea.

I think that of the two Ajani Pridemate is the better. Reaching 30 life consistently will be difficult also. Too many fast aggro decks will never let a person reach it without some very specific conditions arising. Conversely it should be quite easy for Pridemate to become a 4/4 or 5/5 very quickly. That said, in order to meet that condition you'd probably want to run all 12 of the gain 1 life creatures. And I think that may dilute the deck from better choices too much to be worth it. It would require testing.

I can see dropping Sovereign, as it is a win-more. The only time I could really see it useful is in the control match-up where it's nice to have a win condition that doesn't require attacking.

In retrospect I think Outpost was just a nostalgic fancy. Replacing Outpost with Elspeth is superior in just about every regard, and it would help the control match-up I was concerned over.
The deck will easily reach 30 life. It can do so on turn one with SoJ and turn 2 with Martyr. That initial life boost of 8-18 life will provide a blanket by which you can set up more life gain, lay down creatures and eventually lock aggro out of the game. Especially when you are up at 40 life, the Serra Ascendant's will keep you up at that life total. Same concept against combo, only their clock is faster so you need to pull off the life gain quickly for a huge amount to put you out of initial tendrils range. Against control, you have life gain to make control's clock virtually forever, and then just win by beating down with ascendant's, recurring them with Proc from your hand.