[Deck] Spanish Inquisition (B/x Storm Combo)

[Vacrix]

Shaman is definitely miles better than Trow when you actually have to play out the creature while you are setting up. It would actually be worthing keeping him in a few matchups as well, like RUG where you want to do stuff like shrink Goyf, Goose, etc. Obviously if you are sitting around using his ability forever you've either run out of business and are in topdeck mode.. which happens. In that case, he's far more relevant than Trow ever could be because activations for B/G is much easier than 1G/B. Even so its rare that you even have the chance to use Trow for anything other than Culling food or Chrome Mox imprint but thats because its a 1'of. Perhaps if we moved to a build with fetchlands and Tendrils as the win condition, we could run this guy as a 2'of instead. I'm thinking something like Kusumoto's PSI build or perhaps just straight SITES. Likely it won't be worth more than 1 slot though because it slows down the deck too much if you have to waste a turn playing him.

Speaking of SITES.....

Merfolk might have fallen out of DTB recently but it has a far more relevant metagame presence than when Xantid Swarm was initially replaced by Duress and EtW. I'm thinking that its probably worth exploring a tallman list that runs Catacombs/Foothills for Dryad Arbor and Badlands, 4 maindeck EtW and post-board Xantid Swarms. Classic Belcher is doing reasonably well right now at place 15 as seen in the DTB thread.. ANT at 8 and TES at 18. So I'd say Belcher is doing quite well right now for a glass house combo deck, placing better than decks like Nic Fit, Reanimator, Lands, Hivemind, TES, etc. I'd attribute that success mostly to EtW and otherwise, pure speed. In general, we have a much better game plan vs. Blade and Miracle control because they have to play a lot of lands to function efficiently, meaning Carpet becomes extremely valuable. Also, yes RUG should be about 50/50 though you have a slight advantage against an opponent who isn't familiar with how to play against the grind plan. UR Burn/Tempo/Delver/etc. is a bit harder since they have way more reach spells.

Also, most of the control matchups are about 50/50 except for BUG control which I've concluded against a good player who has CB in the board and 4 FoW's maindeck is about 40-60 to as bad as 30-70 against a familiar opponent. Deed is way too brutal at stuffing the grind plan. Also, watch out for good players who board in Disenchant against your grind plan in UW variations.. especially with access to Snapcaster you can't let them fuck around for too long or else they'll Disenchant Carpet, and then a Chrome Mox upon SCM flashback, and then just sit on countermagic til they win.

I'm looking at 2x Thoughtseize as a potential board variation right now. The life loss can hurt but having x6 Duress effects is pretty awesome and we need to take FoW so we can't play IoK. Veil was awesome for what it does but I needing a green source to play protection spells. Black protection is more consistent in general since we can also imprint it if we don't need it or use floating mana post D4 to rape their hand before going for the kill or out-resourcing them.

[Vacrix]

Played a local for the first time in a while. Went 3-1 barely lost the last match to the guy who won.

R1: Sean w/ UW Stoneblade
I've played against Sean a bunch. He's a damn good control player and he knows my decks quite well.
G1 - I go for early IT --> EtW hoping he doesn't have FoW, he has it and then shuts me down before I can rebuild after investing the entire hand.
G2 - I get a beast hand of Carpet x2, Bayou, Drit, Crit, D4, ESG. I go for Bayou, Carpet, resolves, then Petal, Drit, D4, he Forces. He Thoughtseizes away the second Carpet. I draw another D4 which he counters. He counters a few spells before I land Belcher, I Belch, it misfires which I expected since I run so many post-board lands but I have a lot of time. He topdecks Disenchant for Belcher. I then draw a second one and it resolves. He draws an EE and blows up Carpet so no activation for Belcher. Then I draw another land and Belcher gets there.
G3 - I have a decent hand, he mulls to 5 or 6 for an answer. Taiga, Wild Cantor go, Belcher next turn unless he has something. He plays Meddling Mage on Belcher not knowing I have Belcher in hand. Good choice. I have to work around it with EtW now. I play a bunch of lands and eventually sneak through a D4 which leads to lethal tokens and play an ESG to compliment it just in case he can attack back with Snapcaster or something to kill me.
2-1

R2: RJ w/ Pox
Dude finally reworked his deck of bad cards and it was actually a pretty good build of Pox. Also knows my deck quite well.
G1 - Ghost him turn 1. Skyshroud Cutter was key to going off here with Double Culling, Double Pact, LG, Belcher, D4, which gets me IT, LED and some other good stuff which leads to lethal Tendrils for 26 though I had enough mana to do it for more to get above 25 post-Cutter if I needed to.
G2 - I go for early tokens like a dumbass, 8 tokens. I could have instead went for a D4 or even play Belcher activate. I had a beast hand. But I went for tokens thinking he didn't know I play EtW now. But he guessed right and raped my tokens with Engineered Plague after I got them down, Extirpated EtW, and got Needle on Belcher. I had imprinted Tendrils earlier so I had no way to kill him, and we went to next game.
G3 - I have a D4 into some good stuff but don't want to risk continuing yet considering I drew a bunch of lands and land grants. Seems good against discard. He gets down Needle on Belcher and then on turn 3 he gets a engineered Plague. I then just go for IT into IGG into IT--> IT --> ToA for the kill with a threshed Cabal Ritual and kill him. Stoked I could play through the hate and the discard. Note that PIF or Slithermuse over IGG would have been terrible for me here. Definitely going to stick to IGG in my metagame.
2-1

R3: Zack w/ Merfolk
G1: Ghost him turn 1, he doesn't have Force.
G2: I board and everything but he has to mull to 5 to find force, and still doesn't find it. He knows I play a beast post-board so he keeps his 5 hoping to get there cause the grind plan is relatively slow. I play turn 1 Belcher with enough to activate next turn and it gets there.
2-0

R4: Wes w/ UW Miracles
G1: He forces the first D4 and I have to rebuild. I manage to sneak in a LG through Spell Pierce with 2x ESG and I think I got it but he topdecks another Force and seals the game after Entreat the Angels. I expected to lose this one though. UW Miracles has a pretty good game 1 here.
G2: I keep a hand with Duress, Bayou, Taiga, Bayou, Chrome Mox, Cabal Ritual, Dark Ritual. I Duress and see Force Brainstorm x2 Clique, Karakas and 2 lands. I take Force. I eventually draw a D4 and he Spell Pierces. He plays Meddling Mage naming Tendrils, so there goes that plan. Then I have enough to play Belcher and he responds to my Drit with Clique taking Belcher, I grab another one off the top of my library though and cast it, which he Forces. THEN he bounces his god damn Clique and gets ANOTHER Belcher in my draw step the turn after. Then when I try to go off with D4s I manage to play a bunch of tokens but I lose to a flying Clique... because 2 Belchers were on the bottom and I didn't manage to find an IT with in 12 cards of drawing. So kinda unlucky and god damn Karakas and Clique in the opening hand is pretty beast. I think I could have had this game though if he didn't have Karakas or Clique.. or if I had drawn a LG to shuffle and have a better chance of hitting one of 7 outs.
0-2


Sideboard was:
4 Carpet
4 Duress
3 Etw
3 Bayou
1 Taiga

Worked like a Charm. I think I'll keep playing this board.

Maindeck was
IGG
Cutter
EtW

as the flex slots. This is the most comfortable build I've played with by far, especially post-board.

[SupREME-10]

Thanks for the report Vacrix, hope you won some goodies for your efforts.

I am still testing with my build; but a few more months of gauntlet tests and I think that I will be ready to go. What are you typically pulling out for your side to go in ?

Oh and I have put IGG in for PiF as well, PiF seams like a "now I winning more" card where IGG feels more like a "I Win" card.

Cheers

[Vacrix]

Boarding against Ux control. I'll break it down conceptually to compare what I'm taking out to what I'm putting in.

-4 Culling the Weak
-4 Pact

+4 Carpet
+4 Land

In this case we board out the fast accelerants (8) for the perpetual resources (8).

-1 Dryad Arbor
-1 Skyshroud Cutter
-1 Odious Trow
-1 Wild Cantor

+4 Duress

In this case, we don't need the creatures without Culling so they come out as well. Conveiently, most of these cards are floating around the 0 or 1 mana cost (half and half) so your curve doesn't change much.

-1 Tendrils
-1 IGG

+3 Empty the Warrens

In this case you substitute 2 business for 3 business, meaning you'll be playing with an extra card in the the 60, but if EtW isn't the best business spell for this matchup you can leave the extra one out, or only substitute IGG for EtW. Either way its business for business but EtW is actually good against control while IGG/ToA are geared toward speed.


If you think of boarding like that, then you'll never forget instead of trying to remember everything to take out on a list.

Against other decks, though, its less formulaic. I'll go over that in a bit, gotta run to class.

[lochlan]

In this case you substitute 2 business for 3 business, meaning you'll be playing with an extra card in the the 60.

It sounds like you are suggesting that you board in 15 and board out 14, which is, of course, against the rules.

[Vacrix]

Indeed. In that case board out an IT against control, and dodge Spell Snare.

[lochlan]

Indeed. In that case board out an IT against control, and dodge Spell Snare.

That seems pretty bad to me.

I don't know what your regional meta game looks like, but--although Spell Snare is certainly on the rise (being more playable now than it has been since it jumped to $12)--as far as I have seen Spell Snare is not played nearly enough to start thinking like this. At the 350-person SCG Atlanta, for example, there were only 4x Spell Snare in the entire top 8. Not a lot.

But the other thing is that IT is one of our best cards. It's fun to cast D4s and it feels great when they chain together, but they don't get there by themselves. You have to find a Belcher (which is absolutely abysmal if running 4 lands), a Tendrils, EtW, or an IT to find any of the cards I just mentioned. I get that you're bringing in a bunch of EtW which should theoretically make up for the -1 business spell, but ultimately it's reducing our options when chaining spells for a card that is our worst-quality win (i.e. leaving us the most vulnerable). Most people I play storm decks against know to have an answer to EtW post-board--Pyroclasm, Terminus, Maelstrom Pulse, etc. T1 or T2 EtW is absolutely awesome, but once you start getting into the mid/late game they lose a lot. I 100% agree that more EtW post-board is correct (I personally bring in EtW numbers 2 and 3 in the post-board) but I would never board out an IT for them.

Edit: also IT is bonkers with Past in Flames (or IGG if you're into that), which is itself bonkers against our blue opponents.
I would just not put Bayou #3 in my sideboard FWIW.

[Vacrix]

D4's might not always get there by themselves but keep in mind the sideboard I'm playing. 4 lands means I have 4 LG, 5 Land, 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Carpet of Flowers. Thats a total of 17 perpetual resources (virtual counting the LGs). Quite often with this board I've been able to hit BBB and then the D4 actual does something on its own.. and I get to BBB far more often than when I'm only boarding in one Bayou. IT does as well but its a different condition. Either you're finding something already in your hand or you have to hit 6 mana total to find and play Belcher. That means you need a ritual or a LED, or a huge Carpet. The thing is often it boils down to having a single business spell in hand. That makes EtW better than IT, D4 better than IT, and Belcher better than D4. However, I do like having the EtW because you don't have to go as deep into the deck with the D4s. Against UW Miracles or Stoneblade I certainly agree with you though because you want IT > EtW when they have Terminus or Batterskull so you can grab Belcher. However, EtW should definitely be coming in for the Tempo matchup because if you can get one off early like within the first 3 turns (if you have Duress, Carpet or something), you pretty much have the game. Against Tempo I'd take out a D4 because the life loss hurts and IT is just better.

Also, D4s early usually just build up your resources so that you can continue grinding with IMS, or acquire some LEDs in the case that you draw Belcher, D4, IT as the business. Rarely do I go deep with the D4s unless Belcher falls into my lap or EtW. Otherwise, its just straight resources or protection.

As far as 5 lands and Belcher in the post-board, I haven't lost a match to a misfire yet. They've happened but once it comes down it pretty much seals the game, and often the control player is in topdeck mode anyway if they let it go through. We know well how good this deck is in topdeck mode, especially with the amount of perpetuals. Granted, I still need to see how it goes against RUG/UR/BUG Tempo. I'll probably do a gauntlet sometime this or next weekend to test. I dodged RUG Tempo last night due to a repair and I was looking forward to the match.. especially since it was a guy I hadn't played yet. My friend Danny Batterman is going to UCSD now and he's pretty fucking good, and has a huge ass collection. I'm hoping to do a lot of testing with him and finally find a solid sideboard plan for PSI. So far though, I'd recommend this one. The lands are just too good. Opening with hands like 2 lands, 1 LG, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Duress is just nuts. You secure the grind position and then savage topdeck mode commences. Against UW Miracles and Stoneblade I feel particularly confident playing them, even more so than decks with discard like the Pox deck I encountered. They are just too slow and Spell Pierce is practically dead once you get your IMS going. Without Wastelands, they aren't going to dislodge your grind plan at all. RUG has way too many ways to hate it though. Wasteland on the lands, Daze for Carpet, etc. but the extra lands even when playing against BUG Tempo was enough to dodge a Wasteland every so often and still have enough to hardcast Belcher without additional acceleration, or D4s. The Taiga has occassionally be relevant that it wasn't a Bayou but its been more relevant as EtW red source as well as the last land I find when I'm just straight grinding without EtW, so that Belcher gets there the first time.


I'm definitely considering PIF in the sideboard but I think it applies more so to the slower control decks where Carpet and the grind plan are already good. With the exception of BUG control, which isn't that heavily played compared to Blade control and Miracles. I think its best we leave PIF out unless you want to run in maindeck over IGG. Then again, IGG is just way too good. When I played with the PIF/Slithermuse business variation I missed out on a lot of games because I wasn't running IGG. IGG/EtW is safer, more consistent, and it gives you pretty good options. If they happen to have a Force in the yard, just grab EtW with your IT instead of IGG. Its often just as effective unless you went deep with the D4s against a deck like RUG/UR and fall into reach range. What we really need to find side space for is the Tempo matchups. I'm thinking what will happen is we ought to specialize in a specific kind of control deck since the grind plan still works against RUG but its way better against the slow control decks. Then, people can just play a manplan if they are in a Tempo heavy metagame. Lightning Bolts and Chain Lightnings aren't removing Tomb of Urami or Tombstalker. And it dodges Spell Pierce and often because Tombdaddy is BB when you actually want to cast it, it dodges Daze, Spell Pierce, and Spell Snare. Is anyone playing the man plan currently? Again, seems good in a tempo metagame.

[lochlan]

Thats a total of 17 perpetual resources (virtual counting the LGs). Quite often with this board I've been able to hit BBB and then the D4 actual does something on its own.

I haven't tested your configuration but I have to assume that additional lands means your D4s are actually weaker, right?

Let's say you have a game state where you've drawn your opening hand and have cast Land Grant into Bayou, then you D4 (via d.rit, whatever). So you have 3x Land Grant and 4x green duals left in the 53 card deck and have already made your land drop for the turn. Your D4 resolves.

You now have a ~44% chance of drawing at least one Land Grant/land in your four cards. That means a 44% chance that at least one of your cards is totally irrelevant if you have any interest in continuing to accelerate through a D4 spell chain. I saw that you mentioned you rarely do this, which surprised me quite a bit. I usually go for Belcher, of course, but in both goldfishing and actual games I win through a D4 chain (typically at about ~15 storm) about maybe one out of every ten games.

Anyway, assume you're playing my deck and you have 3x Land Grant and 1x green dual left in the 53 card deck. Your D4 resolves and you have a ~27.5% chance of drawing at least one of these.

OK but you can always fail to find if you rip a Land Grant, right? Well with 4x land in the 53 card deck vs 1x it's 27.5% of the time you draw at least one vs 7.5%. More than one out of every four times you will rip at least one card that screws up IT plays unless you have an LED and does nothing for your spell chain, while this will only happen to me less than one in ten times.

You will be able to recover from Wasteland much easier, of course. And you'll have a much easier time grinding against our blue opponents. But it just screws up a big part of what this deck is about IMO, and that includes Goblin Charbelcher. You also suggested cutting a D4, which I think is wrong. I've tried running 7x D4s at various points (both maindeck and in sideboard plans) and it always just screwed up my ability to chain D4s, which sometimes is what I need to do in order to win the game.

As far as Belcher goes,


As far as 5 lands and Belcher in the post-board, I haven't lost a match to a misfire yet.

Misfiring is horrendous, and I do it all the time when I have only a single land left in the deck. When the game is down to the wire and you have burned your life with D4s I don't think you want to be counting on being able to activate Charbelcher for three turns in a row before your opponent can win.

Since you have a lot more permanent mana sources I can see how you'd be able to activate a resolved Belcher pretty much as many times as you wanted after it's on the board, which seems pretty good. It sucks when you belch with 1x land in the deck and miss. But I also feel that this deck wants to WIN once it gets everything together, which is why it affords itself the liability of losing all your life to D4s.

Also:


I'm definitely considering PIF in the sideboard but I think it applies more so to the slower control decks where Carpet and the grind plan are already good...then again, IGG is just way too good.

Yeah I've seen a lot of "win more" talk recently. It's all false. PiF is the grind plan dream card, you rip it and all of a sudden your graveyard full of acceleration and business is live. It's everything you want in the late game. I don't really know what you mean by CoF being "already good", it works like a charm in tandem with PiF to win the game when you rip it. I only really want it vs. blue, hence it's inclusion in the board, but it is a house. I used to play with two but that was way too greedy.

As far as IGG goes I've had times when I've said "I could have a better quality win here with IGG" (usually it's a case where I can cast EtW instead but IGG->Tendrils would be much nicer) but too rarely have I found that IGG is actually *needed* to win. I mean, it does happen--but seriously, I find myself sometimes saying "OH SHIT if only I had ODIOUS TROW in my deck I could win this game, instead I have NOTHING". But I've found recently that Skyshroud Cutter has just been better so I cut Odious Trow. I don't mean to go off on too much of a tangent, but the point is that there are always these corner cases where if you had this one card or that other card you could win or win faster, but what it all comes down to is figuring out what cards give you the best chance of winning. IGG has not been that card for me, but maybe variance has kept me from seeing the same lines as you.

And I agree that we need a better SB plan. I think my current blue plan of 4x Duress 4x Carpet 2x EtW 1x PiF and 1x Taiga has been 100% perfect [edit: in the Tundra match-up--vs. RUG I could use a slight leg up although obv. my plan does help], I don't need more cards and I don't want to take more than 12 cards out. The question for me has been what to do with those other three slots. Right now I'm running 3x Slaughter Pact which is basically garbage but gives me outs to Thalia and is rarely salvageable post-fizzle thanks to LED (much like Summoner's Pact, heh). However, Thalia isn't being played as much recently so maybe those slots are better used for something else. I actually do like Tombstalker ("Tombdaddy", lulz) although I don't know if it's good enough. Tomb of Urami has always been completely terrible in my testing. Honestly those three slots might as well just be Basic Island for me, in all my testing I've never figured out anything I actually liked although recently I have been flirting a bit with Bayou #2 for the non-blue Wasteland match-ups.

[SupREME-10]

wow, that is a lot to think through.

Thanks guys.

[Vacrix]

Additional lands doesn't make the D4s weaker. In the example you described there are still 53 cards left in the deck. That means you don't have resources yet. You have to build a grind board state to actually start grinding. If you get lucky with the first D4, then you should go as deep as you want (and kill if you can or play Belcher pass), but it doesn't guarantee that you'll get the kill because you dilute the main deck to an anti-control version that prefers consistency, perpetual resources, and protection. These things naturally inhibit long spell chains no matter what board configuration of the grind plan that you play. Its better to first secure a board state, then grind out the win. In the case of having multiple LGs in hand, they are not necessarily guaranteed land drops. Your opponent can Snare or Pierce them knowing that eventually you'll have enough land to negate the Pierce/Daze. Having extra lands means you get to turn off Spell Pierce and Daze and force them to play hard counter magic on your business. In that case lands become valuable and actually lets you resolve your D4s instead of trading D4 for Spell Pierce until they run out of counter magic. The more of them you draw the better and the more of them you play the better chance you have of opening with one or two. Ideally, I prefer to open with 3 perpetual resources and work up from there. If I add in some acceleration, we can dodge Pierce/Daze with the rituals or CoF and force them to FoW/Counterspell. Once the hard counter magic is gone, you can play your Belcher or IT and get there.

Granted, having more lands means that you are almost guaranteed to misfire if Belcher comes down early. But when we know we are moving to mid game if we don't get off an early protected business spell, Carpet vs. slower control, or early EtW, then it doesn't matter that you are playing 5 lands in a deck that plays Belcher because you often play at least 3 of your lands while grinding. By the time Belcher comes down, you have a lower chance of misfiring, especially if you leave Taiga for last because you haven't gone for EtW already. Otherwise, when Belcher comes down early.. decks like RUG/UR Tempo have absolutely no way to remove Belcher and Miracles/Stoneblade don't often remove it either, and when the have, I'm so far ahead with perpetuals that they lose anyway. This isn't always the case but too often does an early Belcher win the game even through 2 or 3 misfires while a mid or late game Belcher means I've already hit all my lands or most of them. Keep in mind that in testing of this build with much land, I haven't actually lost because of Belcher misfires. Most of the time I've lost because I don't have enough perpetual resources to grind effectively.

I'm not a fan of PIF because the only cards it works well with post-board are D4s, IT, Crit, Drit, EtW, and Tendrils. Pact and Culling come out so you won't always have shit sitting in the yard to abuse when you draw it as a potential business spell. Further, Carpet and LED do not work with PIF at all but you can actually use either one with IGG. I've won the game by returning a countered Carpet of Flowers with a Bayou to cast, pass to second main phase and add enough mana to get there. Also, IGG is fantastic with LED, unlike PIF. You can't IGG loop if LED is your acceleration for PIF. Thats huge especially if your meta has a lot of combo where you need the win right now and can't just go for tokens. Against blue though where PIF > IGG.. EtW is just as effective as PIF but for the cost of 3R vs. 3R + B initial mana source. Also, IGG has been indispensable in the discard match ups. Also, I don't know how often you've encountered IGG as business spell but it can be a pseudo-mind twist. SI has a much easier time recovering form "discard 4 cards" than most other decks. In general I've found IGG to be much more flexible even though its not a card I can port to the control match ups, where main deck PIF would be. Granted each has there own play style so if it works, go for it but I haven't had much luck with it myself in the main deck. I'm more optimistic about putting it in the sideboard. I might cut a Bayou for it.


Also, if you find yourself having trouble against Maverick or DnT because of Thalia, have you considered having the main deck EtW and 3 EtW in the board? It makes your spell chains smaller so you can D4 into Belcher, pass the turn or EtW pass.. or just natural EtW from your hand via Taiga or Lotus Petal. 10 tokens gets there if its turn 1. I find it more consistent to go for tokens then hope you have the piece of hate and they don't also drop Mother of Runes, or force you into a must win situation after you remove the bear. The EtW are also indispensable in the Tempo matchup where 4 EtW gives you a higher chance of opening T1 with tokens and just steam rolling them.. especially when the grind plan is less effective against Tempo due to needing fewer Islands to function, Daze, a faster clock, and reach.


If you want to abuse PIF to its fullest potential, perhaps a Belcherless Pact list, with post-board PIF and Lands would be the best bet. Tendrils and EtW in the main deck.

So, off the top of my head.

maindeck PIF and then:

SB
4 Duress
4 Carpet of Flowers
2 EtW
1 PIF
3 Bayou
1 Taiga

So you'll have 2 PIF 3 EtW afterwards and you'll be going for a longer spell chain or hoping to hit EtW on a single D4. You won't have to worry about Belcher misfire at all, lands will help facilitate a PIF line of play, same as CoF. I wonder if some variation of this could work for PSI. Its more vulnerable to Flusterstorm (no Belcher), and it relies on longer spell chains, and its very graveyard hate able if they catch on and board in their Crypts, Relics, etc. though I think I'll test it anyway and see how it goes. That is, after I've tested the 4 land SB plan I'm running currently against various Tempo decks. I've concluded its pretty damn good against slower controls decks. The tempo matchup is still largely untested.

As far as the man plan goes, Death's Shadow actually isn't that bad. I used to play 2 in the main deck actually and they were occasionally really awesome, especially when I boarded into the full man plan. Its definitely a strictly Tempo meta strategy though. STP and Snapcaster rape the man plan otherwise.

[lochlan]

Additional lands doesn't make the D4s weaker. In the example you described there are still 53 cards left in the deck. That means you don't have resources yet.

Well, I think I satisfactorily demonstrated that more lands gives the D4s more dead draws when going for a spell chain. Whether or not that makes them "weaker" I suppose depends on what your desired lines of play are--but in my eyes your configuration is definitely "weaker."

And, to be fair, I never said what the rest of your hand was in the scenario I described. Maybe there's also an ESG and a Carpet of Flowers in there.


You have to build a grind board state to actually start grinding. If you get lucky with the first D4, then you should go as deep as you want (and kill if you can or play Belcher pass), but it doesn't guarantee that you'll get the kill because you dilute the main deck to an anti-control version that prefers consistency, perpetual resources, and protection. These things naturally inhibit long spell chains no matter what board configuration of the grind plan that you play. Its better to first secure a board state, then grind out the win.

Although you are correct, this in no way negates the fact that additional lands make D4 chains even worse. I win with D4 chains--pre-board and post-board--enough that I would probably not be willing to add more lands. And I think you can "get lucky" with the first D4 more than you seem to imply. Sometimes the blue opponents don't mull into Force because they think their double Spell Pierce or whatever will get there, and although I might be taking out the Culling package it doesn't mean D4 chains are impossible. Yes, they're worse--although sometimes even Culling itself can occasionally be a bad draw in a D4 chain (ever been cock blocked by a D4 into Culling/IT/x/x that kept you from going hellbent? I know I have.)

Also my example didn't account for the late game, but I think that more lands would make your late/mid-game D4s worse as well. I know you said that you tend to have all your lands out by then, but I imagine that doesn't always happen, and then you can potentially hit lands you don't want off D4s you need to chain in order to win.


In the case of having multiple LGs in hand, they are not necessarily guaranteed land drops. Your opponent can Snare or Pierce them knowing that eventually you'll have enough land to negate the Pierce/Daze. Having extra lands means you get to turn off Spell Pierce and Daze and force them to play hard counter magic on your business. In that case lands become valuable and actually lets you resolve your D4s instead of trading D4 for Spell Pierce until they run out of counter magic. The more of them you draw the better and the more of them you play the better chance you have of opening with one or two. Ideally, I prefer to open with 3 perpetual resources and work up from there. If I add in some acceleration, we can dodge Pierce/Daze with the rituals or CoF and force them to FoW/Counterspell. Once the hard counter magic is gone, you can play your Belcher or IT and get there.

That all sounds good but IMO all the mana development you really need is Carpet of Flowers plus the mana sources and acceleration already in the deck. Even post-board the majority of the deck is mana. I haven't tested your list (although I will) but I can't imagine ever wanting to draw land like you're describing, giving my blue opponents more draws and potentially allowing a RUG opponent to swing in with a Delver.


Granted, having more lands means that you are almost guaranteed to misfire if Belcher comes down early. But when we know we are moving to mid game if we don't get off an early protected business spell, Carpet vs. slower control, or early EtW, then it doesn't matter that you are playing 5 lands in a deck that plays Belcher because you often play at least 3 of your lands while grinding. By the time Belcher comes down, you have a lower chance of misfiring, especially if you leave Taiga for last because you haven't gone for EtW already. Otherwise, when Belcher comes down early.. decks like RUG/UR Tempo have absolutely no way to remove Belcher

RUG often runs Ancient Grudge in the sideboard.


and Miracles/Stoneblade don't often remove it either

But sometimes they do. Sometimes they have Disenchant. And if you have to activate multiple times because you keep hitting lands, you're giving them more opportunities to draw/cantrip into Disenchant.


and when the have, I'm so far ahead with perpetuals that they lose anyway. This isn't always the case but too often does an early Belcher win the game even through 2 or 3 misfires while a mid or late game Belcher means I've already hit all my lands or most of them. Keep in mind that in testing of this build with much land, I haven't actually lost because of Belcher misfires. Most of the time I've lost because I don't have enough perpetual resources to grind effectively.

I will try your list. Everything you're describing sounds very good, if true. (Not that I don't believe you, I merely suspect that variance may have been in your favor--but, again, I haven't tried your list.)


I'm not a fan of PIF because the only cards it works well with post-board are D4s, IT, Crit, Drit, EtW, and Tendrils.

So the only things it works well with are:
1) Every single business spell except Charbelcher--including IT and D4s, which can find a Charbelcher.
2) The best acceleration in my deck (and if I'm casting PiF with a full graveyard I probably have threshold).

Sounds good to me.

It does also work with Land Grant and Duress, which are rarely relevant but can randomly be good.


Pact and Culling come out so you won't always have shit sitting in the yard to abuse when you draw it as a potential business spell.

It's true, you won't always have a good graveyard--but you frequently will. You won't always have a good graveyard for IGG either, I don't really see your point here.


Further, Carpet and LED do not work with PIF at all but you can actually use either one with IGG. I've won the game by returning a countered Carpet of Flowers with a Bayou to cast, pass to second main phase and add enough mana to get there. Also, IGG is fantastic with LED, unlike PIF. You can't IGG loop if LED is your acceleration for PIF.

So your argument basically boils down to:
a) You won't always have specific graveyard combinations that are good with PiF.
b) Therefore PiF is bad.
c) Here are some specific graveyard combinations that are good with IGG.
d) Therefore IGG is good.

...


Against blue though where PIF > IGG.. EtW is just as effective as PIF but for the cost of 3R vs. 3R + B initial mana source.

EtW does a completely different thing than PiF does, they are not comparable.


Also, IGG has been indispensable in the discard match ups.

Past in Flames could be good there too. I mean, it even has flashback.


Also, I don't know how often you've encountered IGG as business spell but it can be a pseudo-mind twist. SI has a much easier time recovering form "discard 4 cards" than most other decks. In general I've found IGG to be much more flexible even though its not a card I can port to the control match ups,

Yes, the card is good sometimes. I am not disputing that. I simply don't encounter those times where the card is good as much I find other cards being better, so it's not in my list.


where main deck PIF would be. Granted each has there own play style so if it works, go for it but I haven't had much luck with it myself in the main deck.

Me either, which is why I don't play with it in the main deck.


I'm more optimistic about putting it in the sideboard. I might cut a Bayou for it.

That is almost certainly correct.


Also, if you find yourself having trouble against Maverick or DnT because of Thalia, have you considered having the main deck EtW and 3 EtW in the board? It makes your spell chains smaller so you can D4 into Belcher, pass the turn or EtW pass.. or just natural EtW from your hand via Taiga or Lotus Petal. 10 tokens gets there if its turn 1...If you want to abuse PIF to its fullest potential, perhaps a Belcherless Pact list, with post-board PIF and Lands would be the best bet. Tendrils and EtW in the main deck.

I already have 1x EtW in the main deck.

It definitely does help for when you can't quite hit enough storm but have plenty of mana. (And for that reason I like it vs. every deck.) But sometimes I can't get there by T2 because of bad draws, whatever, and their T2 Thalia shuts me down. This deck usually just wins before then, but every now and then it just doesn't and I want to have some answers for those times. Really, though, all the available answers are pretty bad.

I already play 2x Tendrils as well, and have no interest in playing PiF main or improving the card--it's already good enough as-is. Belcher is way too good to cut, I used to play the D7 list and when I tried Belcher it was a real eye opener. Playing the card is correct, PSI is a perfect shell for it: tons of fast mana, not a lot of lands.


As far as the man plan goes, Death's Shadow actually isn't that bad. I used to play 2 in the main deck actually and they were occasionally really awesome, especially when I boarded into the full man plan. Its definitely a strictly Tempo meta strategy though. STP and Snapcaster rape the man plan otherwise.

I've seen you suggest Death's Shadow before. (I think I've read just about everything on the internet about this deck.) I haven't tried it yet because I haven't had a ton of success with man plans in general. Sometimes they're randomly good but I've definitely played games where my opponent left in removal for a non-existant Xantid Swarm or something.

FWIW since you haven't seen my list and seem to be offering suggestions that are already in-line with what I have, here's what I'm currently playing (with mostly Japanese cards and FBB duals :smile:):

Main
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Tendrils of Agony

4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Tutor

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Culling the Weak
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Tinder Wall
1 Wild Cantor
1 Skyshroud Cutter
1 Dryad Arbor


Side
4 Duress
4 Carpet of Flowers
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Taiga
3 Slaughter Pact

[catmint]

I played once against such a cruel bargain list and it was not funny for me. :)

Question: Why is Belcher without black more common that this? To me this looks stronger...

[Sockosensei]

@lochan

I'm goldfishing your list to get a different perspective on PSI.
10 hands so far and mostly T1 Tendrils, T1 EtW for 12, or T1 Belcher activating by t3.

Just curious though, what's the role of Wild Cantor in your main?
It helps you play EtW true, but if you Pact for it won't you usually die to the trigger before the goblins get to swing? Or are you just trying to draw into Cantor?

[lochlan]

I played once against such a cruel bargain list and it was not funny for me. :)

Question: Why is Belcher without black more common that this? To me this looks stronger...

I have wondered this myself, although PSI is a little less straight-forward and less well known. Personally I think it's a bit stronger than straight Charbelcher for many reasons, including that it gets to play the best rituals and can rebuild much faster. It does sometimes lose to itself, though, which is awkward.


@lochan

I'm goldfishing your list to get a different perspective on PSI.
10 hands so far and mostly T1 Tendrils, T1 EtW for 12, or T1 Belcher activating by t3.

Just curious though, what's the role of Wild Cantor in your main?
It helps you play EtW true, but if you Pact for it won't you usually die to the trigger before the goblins get to swing? Or are you just trying to draw into Cantor?

I think my list is pretty close to what other people are playing, but I'm glad you're goldfishing such good results with it. I goldfish it nearly every day and it's definitely a very fast and powerful deck.

I would of course never Pact when going for an EtW line of play (unless I have some weird line involving paying for the Pact with LED). It's interesting that you suggested Cantor was good for red color fixing, Tinder Wall is actually better for that purpose since it makes :r::r: off of :g:+S.Pact (and, again, is not great for EtW--mainly Tinder Wall is for generating +1 net mana off S.Pact to play or Activate Belcher).

Anyway, Cantor has a ton of utility here (I think most PSI lists play it), although it's all kind of weird and subtle utility.
1) Mainly it's as a lamb for Culling if, for whatever reason, I can't play either a Skyshroud Cutter or a Dryad Arbor. This is probably the most frequent thing I do with the card and happens because some combination of: I've already cast a Culling, I don't have a Forest, I've already made a land drop (e.g. I have already played and culled Dryad Arbor that turn).
2) Color fixing :g: into :b:, usually combined with a Ritual to start or continue a D4 chain.
3) Color fixing :r: into :b: (almost never happens)
4) 2 extra storm for zero net-mana (Pact+Cantor)
None of these scenarios happen very frequently individually, but together they happen enough that I include the card. It's also very randomly a beater if I open with it or rip it, but that has only happened to me a couple times.

[Vacrix]

Its less common in my experience to win with D4 chains after post-board. With more land, a D4 is usually relevant to your board state. For example if you just acquire a bunch of acceleration but no perpetual resources, then you are stuck, and you have to use ritual acceleration to cast your business. I prefer to hold on to the ritual acceleration if I can for IT or to play around Spell Pierce. Acquiring more and more rituals shuts off part of their countersuite (especially in Thresh's case) so even if you can't produce a D4 chain, you still produce a win off a successful D4, it just a long run win instead of a short run win; I prefer this tactic because having more perpetual resources means you'll be able to build up to a grinding position instead of waiting for ritual acceleration on less than 3 perpetual black mana. If your D4 gets countered, it still matters which cards you might have drawn. I'd prefer for those cards to include additional lands because it helps you get to that quinessential 3 black mana. If you can't get there, you can't really grind. SI might still have a savage enough topdeck for you to acquire a ritual and a business spell, but control decks have cantrips. I decided to run additional lands because I discovered that I won most of my games when I hit 3+ black mana and when I didn't, I lost. When I hit 5 mana, I turned off Spell Pierce, 4 mana, turned off Daze, etc. If you get luck with an early D4, you're already ahead of the game. Whether or not you can win off that D4 is irrelevant if you can produce a winning board state.

Also, lands aren't always terrible late game off D4s. If you're drawing multiples then yes, but if you just draw 1 in your D4 then its just +1 mana for whatever you're trying to do. Keep in mind that I board out Tendrils. Its way too difficult to sneak through a D4 and then actually play out 10 spells for a lethal Tendrils. For example, a D4 as the only spell you are casting with 0 cards in hand is very unlikely to produce a lethal spell chain. You need other resources in hand to get there consistently. This happens often.. too often for me to expect anything out of my D4s except resources and with a little luck, perhaps a second D4 and either a kill, tokens, or an unactivated Belcher.

I don't think you're opponent know how to play against Carpet of Flowers if thats all you need. Perhaps you haven't been playing it as long in your metagame as I have. I've been playing SI since like early '07; every one in my metagame knows exactly what I play and most of them I've had discussions with the deck. They either counter Carpet of Flowers if they have a heavy Island hand or they sandbag me on Carpet and it doesn't usually produce more than 2 mana. Against RUG they have Wasteland and Daze. Carpet is very weak there. You basically need lands to keep up with their disruption if they know how to play against you.

Yes RUG often plays Ancient Grudge but I haven't encountered it often. Most of the Tempo players are less familiar with how to play against Carpet/Belcher and friends. Its mostly the slower control players that know how to play against the grind plan.

I said its not often, they certainly do. If you read my last report, he Disenchants 1 Belcher and he blows up my Carpet to stop it from activating while I'm trying to kill him. But he's in topdeck mode and I had a Bayou + Carpet. Carpet died, then I drew into 2 lands to activate Belcher, with a D4 on the top if I needed another business spell in case he drew Snapcaster to flashback Disenchant.

PIF and EtW are only comparable in terms of deck/sb space. PIF is good against control because it doesn't return the opponent countermagic. Also, it has flashback so it forces the opponent to play 2 countermagic to stop it if you have enough perpetual resources to pay 6+ for Flashback and an initial ritual. On the same note, EtW has a better time against countermagic because it dodges everything but Flusterstorm. Granted, EtW needs a much larger number of resources to be a relevant business spell in hand while PIF needs cards in the graveyard to be relevant (whether or not you also cast them from your hand in the same turn as using PIF). All I was saying here is the previous configuration of PIF/Slithermuse is far worse than the IGG/EtW configuration.

When I played PIF I frequently ran into the problem of needing 6 mana for it to work and if only 6, then a Drit in the yard. 7 for a Crit. If that happened, then I was so over the top that just about any business spell would have worked in that scenario. Then there were other cases where my PIF was completely dead because I drew 0 ritual acceleration. So basically I was rarely impressed with it. It produced some absolutely nuts plays but they were rare and when playing with it most of the time I just wanted it to be a land. Then again this is when I played it in the maindeck.

In regards to graveyards and PIF vs. IGG. I was referring to that as a maindeck configuration. PIF wasn't good for me in the maindeck because I wanted to IGG loop with LED far too often. Most of the time, that would force me into Slithermuse instead, which wasn't bad but Slithermuse wasn't a guarenteed kill like IGG; however, Muse is a line of play thats an entire mana cheaper. But EtW > Muse anyway. My argument doesn't apply to it in the post-board because you don't want IGG post-board. Its entirely a pre-board config. argument.

I know you like your build, but I'd suggest testing an IGG in place of your second Tendrils. Its a safe card that gives you free wins with IT/LED loops. My list is basically the same as yours only I have -1 Tendrils, -1 Tinderwall, +1 IGG, +1 Trow. I haven't found too much use for Tinderwall without maindeck PIF so I dropped it from my build. How well has Slaughter Pact worked out for you? I'd imagine that includes EtWs and Taiga once you hit post-board against Maverick/DnT. Also, I was thinking for anyone who wants to play something like Slaughter Pact, Deathmark etc. you might as well just play Karakas. It bounces Thalia so you can go off, can be reused against Teeg or a replayed Thalia as well as not costing anything to cast at all while Pact still costs 1 under Thalia.

[lochlan]

[Edit: I had some responses about the list that I removed. I think I shouldn't share my thoughts until after I've actually tested your list, regardless of what I think of it for now. As for the rest of your post,]


Most of the Tempo players are less familiar with how to play against Carpet/Belcher and friends. Its mostly the slower control players that know how to play against the grind plan.

It's funny you say this because I'm not really worried about the Tundra match-up, it's RUG that gives me problems. I usually beat Tundra.deck, whatever incarnation it may be. I would actually go so far as to call it a positive match-up post-board. Counterbalance is definitely a thing now, though, which can be hard to deal with.


PIF and EtW are only comparable in terms of deck/sb space.

They are totally incomparable. I cannot have a serious discussion that accepts the presupposition that they are comparable in any way, because I'm not willing to concede--even for a moment--that they fill similar roles in any context. They just don't. PiF is a Yawg. Will and EtW is the end of a storm spell chain.


When I played PIF I frequently ran into the problem of needing 6 mana for it to work

Carpet + LED is often enough. And that's one of the things I love about PiF: it can sometimes turn LED into an awesome draw when otherwise it would be lackluster.


I know you like your build, but I'd suggest testing an IGG in place of your second Tendrils.

No way! IGG sucks versus blue (casting it is a pseudo-concession if they have Force in the yard) and I don't need a card that's good against non-blue decks unless it deals with Thalia. Frankly it sounds like the very definition of "win-more"! As I've already mentioned, I've so rarely seen lines where IGG would be useful that I am not even close to running it.

...and I love the seconds Tendrils. If I have the first in my opening hand and I have to crack and LED then it's great to have that backup. It's also lovely to D4 into Tendrils and using the first to pitch to Chrome Mox is also quite nice. I ran 1x Tendrils for a long time but I simply lost too many games because I didn't have a second. Honestly I think 3x might be correct (for D4 chains, natch) but I like the maindeck EtW too much so I don't have the space.


[IGG is] a safe card

If I wanted to play safe cards I wouldn't be playing this deck ;) But really, IGG is not a "safe card" because it's usually suicide vs. blue. Vs. non-blue it's great, but why would I want a card against my already positive match-ups?


My list is basically the same as yours only I have -1 Tendrils, -1 Tinderwall, +1 IGG, +1 Trow.

Yes, where we seem to disagree is basically the sideboard. Main deck is fine, I could see running Trow again as well.


I haven't found too much use for Tinderwall without maindeck PIF so I dropped it from my build.

I started running Tinderwall because of maindeck PiF, but I kept it in because it produces 2 mana off Pact+:g: which is frequently extremely good for Belcher lines. T.Wall can also be a good "pass the turn ritual" in certain rare lines.


How well has Slaughter Pact worked out for you?

I think I already mentioned this in an earlier post, but it's bad. I don't like it. But I don't know what else to run because Deathmark is about the same (worse, even) and a 4-mana Virtue's Ruin under Thalia is a joke. I've tried various configurations and this is what I'm most comfortable with at the moment, but I am just waiting for Wizards to print something better for this slot.


I'd imagine that includes EtWs and Taiga once you hit post-board against Maverick/DnT.

Yes, I do board in EtW although frankly I haven't 100% figured out what cards to take out. Usually I start by shaving numbers of the Culling package but it's not clear to me what the correct plan is.


Also, I was thinking for anyone who wants to play something like Slaughter Pact, Deathmark etc. you might as well just play Karakas.

Ah, the Bryant Cook method. It's funny you mentioned this because I've also been considering it for awhile. I understand the reasoning (and I am actually a big supporter of using Karakas for this purpose in other decks) but it makes Belcher worse, I can't fetch them up with Land Grant, I've found lands to be bad rips off D4s, and colorless mana is mostly useless in this deck. But Slaughter Pacts sucks too, so...

I actually do plan to test this but I'm not optimistic. Plus the Thalia decks always run their own Karakas, and it's legendary.


Pact still costs 1 under Thalia.

Yeah but 1 is infinitely better than 2 (Deathmark) or 4 (Virtue's Ruin). Hell maybe I should just be running 3x Karakas. I think I will try that during my next testing session, I've been considering it for too long to not at least try it out.

[Vacrix]

UW (Tundra) control variants will usually be positive, yes, but only when your opponents are relatively unfamiliar with how PSI works. Once they get used to it in your local, you'll have to adapt. I've had to constantly adapt my board to retain the advantage in those matchups. I would also agree that its a positive matchup once we hit the post-board. We just have to get lucky and either race the Force early on Turn 1 (and win the die roll) or hope we have a Chrome Mox and/or a land in the opening hand to have any semblance of multiple combo attempts. Once you hit the post-board, you can expect a whole slew of hate cards including Disenchant (which interacts with Snapcaster), EE to blow up tokens or Carpet (its good to bait them to take out Carpet with EE and then play a bunch of tokens for the win), Needle on Belcher, and sometimes Meddling Mage (the other day naming Tendrils which I boarded out). When you also have to deal with these cards, playing the matchup can be tough when they know your deck well enough to pick the right cards on their cantrips and sculpt a hand that can deal with whatever you throw at them. Picking apart the grind plan can be tricky as playing with it though. Having a solid mana base that UW can't touch or fuck with has done well so far. I feel like its been the best adjustment I've made so far to deal with the veteran slow control players in my metagame who I've been playing against for a long time.

By the way, the effectiveness of your board is most easily discernable when you play the same matchup over and over again against the same player. Then he gets to learn how the grind plan works and once he's very familiar with it you can adapt the board accordingly. Thats what I did against a good friend of mine who's tested against countless board variations and maindeck variations to death. Easily more than 500 games including post-board. Initially, the post-board plan was beating the shit out of him, the undeveloped version because he didn't know how to play against it (probably 60/40 in my favor). Eventually, we were even and I had to adapt and I couldn't find a board variation that could consistently get me back to 60/40. Then he started beating me pretty consistently until I started playing the 4 land board. Before the 4 land board it was like a 30/70 matchup for PSI; awesome for BUG because they can blow up the board, Loam lock you out of lands, seal the game with Jace, play post-board Counterbalance to lock you out of the game, Top + fetch constantly to find countermagic. He's pretty good at sculpting the right hand so that he can deal with whatever I throw at him; however, I brought it back to like a 50/50 matchup against BUG with the 4 lands after around 10 games of testing (though I plan to test more pretty soon). When I ported this board from the BUG matchup (slow control) to the UW matchups, it was stellar. I was extremely comfortable opening with a land almost every game, and the only post-board match I lost against control lost me the set because he drew the royal flush of singletons (Karakas + Clique).



Lands help you in the RUG matchup but I don't know yet if they are the post-board best choice for the Tempo matchup. I know they are good against UW or BUG though. You actually need more perpetual resources against RUG than in the UW control matchups because UW doesn't play Wasteland often while its standard maindeck in RUG. Also, Daze makes Carpet less effective or sometimes negates it entirely. Before I ran lands, there were times I played against Merfolk (for example) and lost because I tried to ride a Carpet all the way to the finish. My opponent just sat on Wastelands and Mutavaults without playing a single Island the whole game. Didn't get a black source without it getting countered and just lost to lands. Same thing can happen against RUG only they Waste your land perps and then Daze to keep you off Carpet mana. Some people won't fall for CoF bullshit :P I probably just have to prepare for a different metagame because everyone knows my face.

I encounter hate specific to my deck now. For example, the Pox player I encountered last Thursday local, he had Engineered Plague for my Goblins, Needle for my Belcher, and plenty of discard to stop me from building into a lethal Tendrils. They only thing that saved me is that he went for Plague and Needle before starting to nuke my hand, so I was able to play IT from my hand naturally to find IGG. Without IGG this hand wouldn't have been possible and I wouldn't have had a way to win that game. IGG is far from win-more; it turns IT into a business spell instead of a 6 mana Tendrils/EtW at the tail end of a spell chain or a 9 mana Charbelcher. Without IGG, you need to have played a D4 or you're going for EtW. What happens when your hand is just mana + IT and you aren't running IGG maindeck? Do you play Belcher and pass? You might be exposing yourself to hate like QPM if you can't activate it in time. For example, if you have to wait til turn 3 after landing Belcher turn 1 because you can IT for 6 mana but not 7, then what do you do, make tokens? What if you're playing the combo matchup and they kill you before you can do anything? What about High Tide where they can early Tide for Cunning Wish and Echoing Truth your tokens? Shit happens man. IGG is a 'safe' card because it almost always turns IT + mana into a win without having to go through the motions of a D4 chain. Sometimes IT and mana is all you have access to. The extra Tendrils doesn't help you in this case unless you are chaining D4s together. Also, since I've added Cutter to the maindeck, IGG was a natural inclusion when hands in testing kept coming up where I was a spell shy of a kill with Tendrils because you need to hit 12 spells + ToA in a cutter line of play. IGG makes that possible quite often though IT-->IT-->IT-->Tendrils can happen too, it just costs more mana. IGG is easier. And its often more useful in your hand as the only business spell then ToA could be. Natural ToA from your hand might give you a comfortable lead in your life total against something like Goblins, perhaps putting you close to 30 or 34.. but IGG forces them into a mulligan to 3 while you get to return 3 cards as well.. like the best pieces of the acceleration that played IGG in the first place. Also, in the middle of a spell chain it can be just as effective as Tendrils unless you have exactly 4 mana left post-D4.. sometimes even more effective like if break LEDs after the first D4 into a bunch of floating black mana but you only draw ESG/Pacts, Petals, and only your choice of Tendrils or IGG. IGG would be better since the ESGs won't produce enough spells to give you a lethal Tendrils.

So just to bullet point the advantages of IGG to recap:
- Produces free wins with IT that don't involve D4 spell chains.
- IGG can pseudo-mind twist the opponent and cripple their game plan.
- IGG is often just as useful mid spell chain as Tendrils though each has its own advantage depending on scenario.


I think you miss the point though here: PIF and EtW are comparable because they are IT targets, and you only want so many because the deck is tight for space. One might be a Yawg Will while they other is an option kill condition, but they both happen because of IT more often than otherwise. Either way, I don't know why we are talking about this. IGG is comparable to PIF while EtW is comparable to Slithermuse because IGG and PIF are for looping business at an investment of 5 mana while EtW and Muse are business at 4 mana that don't require 10+ storm.

I think the Tinderwall line of play would involve playing it with a green source perpetual resource like a Bayou or something, then passing the turn and activating it. That is most certainly rare, and risky if you find it with Pact, pass and then activate in your upkeep unless you've already hit both lands. I don't know if this is relevant enough. Otherwise Pact + ESG is potentially producing GG mana. With Tinderwall it just produces RR. and you get to play 2 spells instead of just the Pact (removing 2 ESGs). I think the advantage of Trow/Slitherhead/Deathrite Shaman being cast of black rituals is indispensable, even with Cutter. Sometimes, you have to start with Arbor as your land and then you are cut off from Cutter and need a green source to play your creatures to feed to Culling. I think I'm going to wind up running Shaman since its going to be randomly really awesome outside of being culling fodder.

I'll go through my deck and try to remember what I take out for the Maverick matchup and get back to you. Though I'm guessing its usually just -2 Pact, -2 Culling, +3 Empty the Warrens, +1 Taiga. I've been fine without cutting the entire Culling package especially since you still keep some of the creatures in along with LG-->Arbor. But I don't know what to cut if you want to also board in something to directly deal with Thalia. I'd actually try going with something more premature like Thoughtseize over Duress if you encounter a lot of Thalia in your metagame.. or perhaps Unmask?



On IGG as a safe card (just responding to what you wrote relatively in order), its not good against blue, but Tendrils isn't much better in its place. For example, if either is an IT target, they just counter the IT. If either is cast naturally from the hand, why didn't they just counter the D4 instead? Its not a relevant card in the blue matchup unless you go straight for the throat with an IGG loop because they let IT resolve (ie. they don't have force) in which case its quite good if they can some how answer 8-14 tokens (say.. a lucky EE or they could stabilize with blockers, or even something like Prison effects (Elephant Grass) if you're playing against Enchantress). The real reason you run IGG is because its great in the combo mirror where you absolutely must produce a win on the same turn as IT and if its the only business spell in your hand and you don't have 9 mana total to play and activate Belcher, then you need to go for tokens and hope you can win the race.

I actually overlooked that fact that its relevant to the Belcher plan. Wow.. lol. Umm.. yeah probably not the best choice then unless you play a Belcher less build. Wow though, it will be a fantastic answer for Thalia in SITES, which completely lacks Belcher.



EDIT:
For the record, lolchan.. Kusumoto plays a completely different PSI config. than I do. I'd look into that one if you prefer to play more maindeck Tendrils. He piloted it to a solid 26th place at an SCG if I recall. That or it was just a huge event. I'm pretty sure he played a 3 Tendrils, 2 Belcher configuration, and then sided in 2 Belchers when grinding. I just prefer the Belchers because in most matchups you encounter either card, passing the turn with Belcher will get there. Even if you don't technically get the turn 1, you get inevitability and the pants shitting moment where you flip 20+ and your opponent curses WotC for not letting them play magic. Then, you also save sideboard space by not having to board in the extra Belchers. If you want to run the 3 Tendrils without cutting the Belchers, you'd have to either shave some of the Pact targets, or the business spells.

[lochlan]

First off, it's "Lochlan", not "lolchan".


Pact + ESG is potentially producing GG mana. With Tinderwall it just produces RR.

Yeah I'm not sure what I was thinking here, that was pretty dumb. Obviously Summoner's Pact into ESG is the same amount of mana.
But Tinder Wall does net mana if drawn naturally. And if I have to color fix into red for EtW off of Summoner's Pact I can produce RR from a Tinder Wall instead of just R from a Wild Cantor. It also does generate an additional storm count. It has some good utility despite my error.

And as for the pass the turn thing I have done it before, both off of Summoner's Pact and drawing Tinder Wall naturally. It's definitely risky to activate Belcher with lands still in the deck and a lose-the-game trigger on the stack but it's sometimes an acceptable risk. If there's one land, depending on how many cards are in the deck it's something like a 14% risk of losing, which are odds I am comfortable risking a lot of the time.

In any event I just don't see the lines with Trow enough to run it and I guess I was thinking about the EtW thing with Tinder Wall? Honestly the times when I need anything other than Cutter, Arbor, or ESG are so rare and the other guys are usually just "Culling lamb for :g:" so frequently that running one over the other probably doesn't matter that much. You may be right, maybe Trow (well, Deathrite Shaman now I guess) is better. I can't really argue my point futher because I don't have numbers to back it up or anything, I just recall wanting Tinder Wall way more frequently than Trow.


I'd actually try going with something more premature like Thoughtseize over Duress if you encounter a lot of Thalia in your metagame

I suggested this earlier in the thread myself. The idea might have merit but of course does nothing for the situations where Thalia has resolved. How to deal with Thalia is a big problem for all storm decks, though, really, and I don't think anybody has come up with a perfect plan yet.


On IGG as a safe card (just responding to what you wrote relatively in order), its not good against blue, but Tendrils isn't much better in its place.

If I have four mana at the end of a D4 chain, I want to cast a Tendrils, not IGG with no mana floating :) And I really, really don't want to cut myself off Tendrils if I have to discard/exile it through some kind of LED/Chrome Mox play (I don't have a Burning Wish to fall back on and a singleton will be in your opener over 10% of the time). Even beyond personally not liking IGG, really for only these two reasons I simply have to have at least 2x Tendrils in the deck. If I want to add another business spell I consider the only real available slot to be cutting a creature from the Culling package, but so far I have regretted that every time I try it.


Kusumoto plays a completely different PSI config. than I do. I'd look into that one if you prefer to play more maindeck Tendrils. He piloted it to a solid 26th place at an SCG if I recall.

Yeah it's only a few pages back, really. I actually just watched his feature match again the other day. He definitely played 3 Tendrils and Unmask. I remember not liking his board, I think he was only running 3x Carpet of Flowers or something.

[Larzdk]

Edit: Urgh, my questions were already answered by reading further back, not much to see here - other than a new face in the SI family.

[sherko7]

What's the "cheapest" SI build? I already have the LEDs and Therapies :tongue:

[Larzdk]

What's the "cheapest" SI build? I already have the LEDs and Therapies :tongue:

I don't think I would dare play anything but PSI. If you're really budget, I think belcher might be easier to assemble than getting your hands on 4 Cruel Bargain.

[Vacrix]

Played at my local tonight, going 3-1 for 3rd place, dropping one round to a great RUG Tempo player.

R1 – Maverick
Game 1: Turn 1 lethal Tendrils
Game 2: Turn 1, I'm one spell short of Tendrils in the IGG loop so Empty the Warrens for 18 tokens gets there.
2-0

R2 – Dredge
Game 1: Turn 1 lethal Belcher
Game 2: Mull to 4, win turn 3 on the play.
2-0

R3 – RUG Tempo
This guy is a good player and he has a dope sideboard.
Game 1: He had the nuts draw; Force + Ponder, Spell Snare and Daze on the play. I can play around Spell Pierce but he Spell Snares and I can’t recover through 2 countermagic with his fast clock.
Game 2: I get an early Carpet and he plays a bunch of fetches without cracking them. He wastes a Bayou and then I get another down with an early Chrome Mox. He counters my first D4 and then he Stifles three of my Carpet triggers while playing creatures. I manage to sneak through Empty the Warrens when he’s tapped out for a mere 6 tokens but he has Rough/Tumble to wipe my board. I had played an ESG so I could have traded with each of his creatures, basically putting the board at a standstill, but the Rough/Tumble wiped my entire board so I lost. However, I did have a lethal Belcher coming if I had just one more turn. Close game, but he had the nuts and the sideboard to beat Empty the Warrens.
0-2

R4 – Death and Taxes
Game 1: Turn 1 lethal Belcher
Game 2: I board lazily AND I keep a very risky 7. Kicking myself after this game.
Game 3: I chain 3 D4s together into IT for Cabal Ritual, into Cabal Ritual x2 threshed into a lethal Tendrils turn 1.
2-1

So overall I went 3-1.

With the exception of the DnT game I goldfished well for not playing at all for 3 weeks. In the non-U games I got 4 turn 1 kills out of 7 games so roughly 60% turn 1 kills, and then there was a game where I completely blew it against DnT and a game where I got tokens for inevitability against Maverick. I wasn’t happy with my games against RUG, obviously game 1 is just a dice roll but he got killer hands in both games and a damn good sideboard against me so I should have lost that one.

I also picked up a Deathrite Shaman to replace Odious Trow. It looks pretty beast and I actually want to keep it in against RUG since its good at shrinking Goyf and Goose.

[Ricardio]

So bi monthly legacy win a box.
I ran ill gotten, 3 belcher, 2 tendrils and 1 empty(2 sb)
Sb was 4 carpet, 4 duress, 1 taiga, 2 abrupt decay, 2 inquisition(weren't Spanish :'-( ), 2 empty

Round 1
Pretty nice guy who I know is on rug delver, he plays it every week and he knows what I'm playing so I figure he will mull to a force and daze.
He wins the die roll and leads w fetch, tropical, delver, pass
I go for it, the whole time leaving up daze mana in the form of esg or pact.
His nickname is known among the players bc of his sad demeanor but he looked especially sad when I was comboing off. I go for belcher, it stays, I can either go for it w arbor still on the deck and him at 19 or LG for it this turn and go off next turn if I rip a source. I go for it and he scoops before I reveal.
Game 2: I board in everything minus 1 empty and 2 decay.
I keep Drit, Crit, IT, Led, LG, carpet, esg. I LG into carpet and he removes force to force it. 4 turns and 3 donothings later,
I somehow manage to empty for 12 followed by tendrils for 14. I'm at 24, he is at 3. He scoops and shows me the 4 electrickey in his board he forgot to board in. I tell him about game 1 and we joke. He says next time he wants to see it and I tell him I will show him ;).

Round 2
This trolling mofo who I know is playing know and tell.
He knows my deck bc everyone saw me play it and was fascinated with it.
I win the roll and turn 2 belcher him. Before we side he shows me force and blue card and jokes about how he was greedy with his forces.
Game 2: I side in the blue plan. He turn 2 SnT griselbrand and I scoop.
Game 3: I choose to draw and keep a shitty 6 that ends in 14+ storm and a timely trickbind.

Round 3
A nice guy that is a dedicated DnT player. F*ck thalia.
Game 1: I win die roll. Tendrils wins game turn 1.
Game 2: he leads fetch, scrub, IoK, pass. I rebuttle with lethal tendrils.
F*ck thalia.

Round 4
Win and in time for top 4, first chance so I figure it time to go big.
I'm playing a guy from my home town who was playing this interesting deck.
Land tax, scroll rack, top, lotus vale, chants, terminus, entreat, trinisphere.
Game 1: he mulls to 6, realizes his sb is still in. Fixes it, goes to 5. I'm first. IGG saves my ass. I win. Tendrils.
Game 2: he says ok, I think I got you this game. I say show me the money. Chants me on upkeep. He then plays city of traitors, 3sphere.
Arbor takes 4 turns to surface, I attack 5 times, he is at 13. After much scroll racking and topping, he entreats for 6 off the top.
Game 3: I keep a shaky 6, he shows me chant and 3sphere and tells me, let's are you win this.
I combo off but don't have lethal tendrils so I grab a d4 off the IT. I have nothing but a petal on the field and the four cards off the top.
I get Crit, led, Crit and I show him that I can't win and he says let's see the last card, I pull a led and
Lament over how my d4 landed me Crit, Crit, led, IT with only a petal down.

2-2 sad panda. Overall I am happy but I wanna try a mox opal in the deck and see how it goes.

[ESG]

So bi monthly legacy win a box.
...
Round 4
Win and in time for top 4, first chance so I figure it time to go big.
I'm playing a guy from my home town who was playing this interesting deck.
Land tax, scroll rack, top, lotus vale, chants, terminus, entreat, trinisphere.
Game 1: he mulls to 6, realizes his sb is still in. Fixes it, goes to 5. I'm first. IGG saves my ass. I win. Tendrils.

This sounds like he already presented, then found out he had an illegal SB, in which case he should have gotten a game loss, corrected his SB, and you'd go to Game 2 with no sideboarding.

[Vacrix]

So bi monthly legacy win a box.
I ran ill gotten, 3 belcher, 2 tendrils and 1 empty(2 sb)
Sb was 4 carpet, 4 duress, 1 taiga, 2 abrupt decay, 2 inquisition(weren't Spanish :'-( ), 2 empty

Round 1
Pretty nice guy who I know is on rug delver, he plays it every week and he knows what I'm playing so I figure he will mull to a force and daze.
He wins the die roll and leads w fetch, tropical, delver, pass
I go for it, the whole time leaving up daze mana in the form of esg or pact.
His nickname is known among the players bc of his sad demeanor but he looked especially sad when I was comboing off. I go for belcher, it stays, I can either go for it w arbor still on the deck and him at 19 or LG for it this turn and go off next turn if I rip a source. I go for it and he scoops before I reveal.
Game 2: I board in everything minus 1 empty and 2 decay.
I keep Drit, Crit, IT, Led, LG, carpet, esg. I LG into carpet and he removes force to force it. 4 turns and 3 donothings later,
I somehow manage to empty for 12 followed by tendrils for 14. I'm at 24, he is at 3. He scoops and shows me the 4 electrickey in his board he forgot to board in. I tell him about game 1 and we joke. He says next time he wants to see it and I tell him I will show him ;).

Round 2
This trolling mofo who I know is playing know and tell.
He knows my deck bc everyone saw me play it and was fascinated with it.
I win the roll and turn 2 belcher him. Before we side he shows me force and blue card and jokes about how he was greedy with his forces.
Game 2: I side in the blue plan. He turn 2 SnT griselbrand and I scoop.
Game 3: I choose to draw and keep a shitty 6 that ends in 14+ storm and a timely trickbind.

Round 3
A nice guy that is a dedicated DnT player. F*ck thalia.
Game 1: I win die roll. Tendrils wins game turn 1.
Game 2: he leads fetch, scrub, IoK, pass. I rebuttle with lethal tendrils.
F*ck thalia.

Round 4
Win and in time for top 4, first chance so I figure it time to go big.
I'm playing a guy from my home town who was playing this interesting deck.
Land tax, scroll rack, top, lotus vale, chants, terminus, entreat, trinisphere.
Game 1: he mulls to 6, realizes his sb is still in. Fixes it, goes to 5. I'm first. IGG saves my ass. I win. Tendrils.
Game 2: he says ok, I think I got you this game. I say show me the money. Chants me on upkeep. He then plays city of traitors, 3sphere.
Arbor takes 4 turns to surface, I attack 5 times, he is at 13. After much scroll racking and topping, he entreats for 6 off the top.
Game 3: I keep a shaky 6, he shows me chant and 3sphere and tells me, let's are you win this.
I combo off but don't have lethal tendrils so I grab a d4 off the IT. I have nothing but a petal on the field and the four cards off the top.
I get Crit, led, Crit and I show him that I can't win and he says let's see the last card, I pull a led and
Lament over how

I will finish it later. Battery is dying.Good shit beating up on RUG. Against Show and Tell you want to board much differently. They don't play many islands and are mostly countermagic light. Also, because its a combo deck, you can count an opponent who is willing to risk his ass on a fast combo win rather than a slow protected win. So perhaps board in your disruption and thats all. Then you'll still have a relatively fast clock but with protection to fuck with the opponents combo pieces. Otherwise, you could go with pre-board and race him. In round 4, yeah thats some shitty luck that you ran into a guy with Chants and 3sphere. Thats basically the worst kind of non-U opponent you could encounter; lock pieces + instant speed disruption. If what ESG was talking about happened then perhaps he wouldn't have even known what you were playing going into game 2.. Anyway, I'm confused about Game 3. If you don't have a lethal Tendrils off IT did you not have the red source to go for EtW? Also, if its turn 1, IGG isn't a terrible play here either. You get back the 3 most important cards and your opponent is forced into a 3 card hand. IT into blind D4 with X floating never gets there. I don't ever make that line of play. If you have like 1 floating, IGG is better, if you have a LED, EtW. If you have played Pact, then yeah you basically have to go for the D4 but its rare that it will produce a win.

[Ricardio]

@ESG: the ruling is that if you have yet to resolve a mulligan and realize your sb is still in, the right thing to do is state it, de side and mull down 1.
@vacrix: droopy(rug player) kept shaky hands and didn't see a force either game so I got off lucky.
And I didn't empty bc I absolutely had to start w a pact to start going. My opponent showed me plains, city, chant, 3sphere after we resolved mulls and said let's see you masturbate.

Also I was wondering about mox opal as a one of. Has it been tested and to what results?

[Sockosensei]

Also I was wondering about mox opal as a one of. Has it been tested and to what results?

Mox Opal is fantastic as a 2-of in my robot build (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-robot-inquisition/), but that's with 21-22 artifacts not including the Opals. I'd be scared to run it with fewer artifacts, so doubt it'd fit PSI well.

[Ricardio]

Alrighty. Thanks. I am just curious. I want this deck to become better and more consistant so I figure all ideas are up for consideration.

[Sockosensei]

Alrighty. Thanks. I am just curious. I want this deck to become better and more consistant so I figure all ideas are up for consideration.

Absolutely. I'm just letting you know that even with 21+ artifacts supporting Mox Opal, I feel like I'm cutting it close.
My build really needs Opal to increase potential initial mana sources, so it's a calculated risk.
PSI has initial mana plays that are unavailable in my build, like ESG-->Pact-->Wild Cantor for black mana, so it's probably not necessary to take a risk on Opal.

Anyway, feel free to test it and report back. I'd love to be wrong:wink:

[Vacrix]

On the topic of Mox Opal.. I found it to be pretty inconsistent since you need 2 other cards for it to work. However.. I tested a singleton Mox Diamond in place of one of the Pact targets in PSI. It wasn't terrible but it didn't produce any noticeable changes. You only need one card to work with Mox Diamond, ie. Pact or LG. The problem was once I hit the post-board, you lose Pacts so its much more difficult to justify playing Diamond since its a counterable land. In the grind game, you want as many IMS as you can get your hands on.


Perhaps Mox Opal might find a place in some sort of post-board grind strategy.. Mox Opal and Lotus Bloom come to mind. I know Darth Vicious used to play these cards in his build. After finals are over, I'll fiddle around with those 2 cards post-board and see what I can come up with because Mox Opal is kinda like Chrome Mox 2.0 and Lotus Bloom is like a one shot Carpet of Flowers.

[Ricardio]

Wonderful. I have another question, What about Rhystic tutor? as a singleton in place of a win condition.
I understand it seems bad but I think its a possibility bc it can become any of the 3 we may need. Of course it loses power after turn 2 but im saying as a singleton.

Also, i am loving the 3-2-1 belcher-tendrils-empty
4 belcher is way too many and tendrils can be imprinted.
I also stopped running skyshroud cutter bc i found that in chains i would run it, i had to finish w belcher to feel safe bc often times it makes your storm need raise to 13 and other times 12 which isnt unreasonable but takes more time and effort with which i want to minimize.

I am loving the deck thus far and i love the look on my opponents face when i turn 1 them.

Stay Brewing my friends.

[lochlan]

I also stopped running skyshroud cutter bc i found that in chains i would run it, i had to finish w belcher to feel safe bc often times it makes your storm need raise to 13 and other times 12 which isnt unreasonable but takes more time and effort with which i want to minimize.

When I chain D4s into Tendrils it's typically at 13-15 storm, the extra five life has only been a problem a couple times. My biggest issue with Skyshroud Cutter is that you have to have a Forest to cast it, which can be a problem with D4 lines that start by culling Dryad Arbor with no Bayou in play. But, again, it almost never comes up. The utility of having a free creature that can be played the same turn you play a Bayou is absolutely worth the small concessions you make by including Cutter. Bayou + Summoner's Pact + Culling the Weak (and no other initial mana sources) can't generate mana on the turn you play the Bayou without Skyshroud Cutter.

One other kind of random thing I really like about Skyshroud Cutter over other options is the 2/2 body. I have definitely stolen a game or two with T1 Dryad Arbor followed by a Skyshroud Cutter. PSI beats is hilarious and sometimes (ok, very very rarely) the correct line.

[Ricardio]

Often times I storm for exactses or just over.
It's never stupid like 15+.
The cutter made it a necessity to go long or belcher.
I am an avid believer in less is more meaning that I want them deck with as little effort as possible.
I like tinder wall bc it nets me mana and it makes empty easier to cast.
I will be honest and say I haven't picked up the deck in over a week but I stand by these statements.

[Vacrix]

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_spanish_inquisition_.html

SCG Vegas. Nicolas Prax takes 64th, and they do a Deck Tech interview. He has a suboptimal list though. 3 ESG is wrong if you want to actually cast Carpet of Flowers. And he plays Autumn's Veil over Duress so thats a little puzzling. 4 Belcher, 2 Tendrils config.. meh 4/1 or 3/2, or 2/3 is relatively standard. Also, Skyshroud Cutter > Young Wolf is wrong because Cutter lines of play come up far more frequently than Wolf lines of play. 3 Tombs is just a sideboard playstyle but he'd probably want a Bayou or two if he is to have enough green sources for his heavily green board. Abrupt Decay.. another sideboard playstyle but CB is terrible right now with BUG in DTB playing it maindeck so I don't know why he'd prepare for it. If you can sneak enough perpetuals through before they land Counterbalance, you can play right around it, even if they have a top. I've done it plenty of times vs. BUG control. You get to like 3-6 mana, and they can't consistently get a 3 or 4 ontop. Hell I've won through active CB, Jace, Lili in topdeck mode more than a handful of times. CB isn't as hard for SI as it is for something like ANT or TES because the other storm decks NEED acceleration to play their business spells unless they hit 5 perps for AdN. And even then, an opponent with a mana surplus can just counter the key spells that follow the AdN and attempt to stop you. In SI, you can just sneak through a D4, and then a Belcher right past Counterbalance. Not to say CB is a even or positive matchup, but I wouldn't specifically prepare for it in the current metagame when Abrupt Decay is played elsewhere already.

Either way, good to see the deck getting some attention.





One other kind of random thing I really like about Skyshroud Cutter over other options is the 2/2 body. I have definitely stolen a game or two with T1 Dryad Arbor followed by a Skyshroud Cutter. PSI beats is hilarious and sometimes (ok, very very rarely) the correct line.
PSI beats is actually the correct line of play when you get off an early EtW for like 6 to 8 tokens for some early pressure while you build up perpetual resources. I've had more than a few games where my opponent is constantly cantripping to find answers for my tokens and I just drop ESGs and such to compliment the game plan before they have threshold in RUG. When they are trying so hard to dig for an answer, sometimes they are forced to play creatures as blockers that way they can start chipping down the number of tokens and stabilize. When that happens, they are forced to play more lands which means a more mana from Carpet, which means they are taking lands and creatures with their cantrips instead of permission.

[lochlan]

SCG Vegas. Nicolas Prax takes 64th

The tournament isn't even close to over. He was ranked 18th after round 4 with 9 points (http://www.starcitygames.com/scglive/files/20121209173944000000.html) (so, a record of 3-1) and it's currently round 6.

Edit: apparently (http://www.starcitygames.com/scglive/files/20121209191905000000.html) after round 5 he is 4-1. It will be interesting to see how rounds 6-8 turn out for him. So far so good.

[Vacrix]

Indeed. The dude who dropped me the link mentioned this as well. It seems like he knows what he's doing.. even if his list isn't what I would play.

I'd say if he encounters a lot of Goblins, Maverick, and Dredge then he'll probably wind up doing pretty well. The rest of the field has quite a lot of BUG right now so we'll see how it turns out.

[Ricardio]

He's at 12 points aft round 7 so 4-3 sadly but he can finish in the money.

[Vacrix]

He's at 12 points aft round 7 so 4-3 sadly but he can finish in the money.I hope he does a report. It would be interesting to see how his build performed from his perspective, considering some of the variations are questionable.

[Ricardio]

Do we have any way of getting a hold of this guy to pick his brain??

[Jodahae]

Hi guys, Im Nich and I played the PSI list and got a deck tech for last weekends SCG Vegas.

I'll start off by fully admitting that my list was sub-opitimal on several card choices, that being said I'll take any credit I can for trying to take this deck out into the real world. As many of you noted I should have had more Bayou's in the board and probably dropped the man plan as it wasnt utilized at all during the day. Autumn's veil should also just be duress and ill try to remeber the other changes that I would make for further tourneyments.

My appologies to anyone if I get the exact turn or gamestate slightly off as I mostly took notes on my mulligans and what turn I attempted/killed.

Round 1: Cedric Phillips-R/B Goblins

Pairing go up and I see that I am going to get to play against SCG/StreamTeam Cedric. I usually see him across from me at player meetings as our last names are close. Game 1 I go off on turn 2 with a lethal belcher, I believe I had both lands either in my opener or 1 land and 1 land grant. He was understanding of the fact that he was dead when I revealed my hand for my land grant and let him look over my deck while belcher activation resolved. G2: I attempt to go off turn 2 and the deck misfires, I remember that Cedric started with a Leyline of the void in the board and had a Mulligan into it while fully acknowledging that he had nothing for the matchup. This game with my misfire I believe that I conceded to my own pact trigger after the misfire. G3: Again Cedric opens on a leyline and I believe a vail, I have a few moxes and I believe a land, this game I had out a cantor and got down the belcher after a turn under rishadan port. I believe it ended on turn 4 although after the game I sheepishly had cedric point out that I had the kill a turn earlier, I tried to be as gracias as I could be and told him that I in no way wanted to slow roll him, he accepted and we were done.

2-1 in games

Round 2: Eric Chan- Show and Tell
This was a pretty awesome set of games. I opened on the draw with a turn 1 belcher for the win if he opens on anything non-blue. He plays a Sol land and passes, in my mind Im worried about playing against a stax or chalice deck, so I know that it would be now or never for my deck. I go all in and push with a belcher ready for an activation, he has force of will pitching either brainstorm or a show and tell I cant remember. I know hes on show and tell now. He untaps and his last cards are lotus petal, show and tell, omniscience and burning wish. GG once i see petals and grapeshot. G2:I start with a IC which is really strong against the show and tell decks since much like PSI your either dead or alive. after drawing I have indicated that I drew a Belcher, another D4 and a mox that along with my mana in had allowed me to play the belcher and activate for the win.

They cant have force of will all the time.

G3: This I dont have anything noted for but I do remember that I went off on turn 1 and I'll assume killed with a belcher as this would be my main kill all day. The reason I remember that it was turn 1 was that Eric commented on the fact that I had a turn 1 kill in every game that we played and that he only saw FoW in the second game.

2-1 for games

2-0 matches

Round 3: Tannon Grace- RUG Delver-13th place overall.
Tannon was a really cool guy, he explained that he was a poker play by profession and that he liked to play invitationals and more standard than legacy. He was really tired he would explain throughout our round.
This game I again have few notes for, the reason being that I was realizing that the runner for the scg coverage team was looming around our game and prior to the round starting I overheard a judge saying that he wanted to know what were some of the cooler things that he was seeing from the tables to several other judges.
He starts off tropical island, delver. I have a turn 1 belcher but no activation. I land the belcher and we begin the grind to see if i can fire off before he kills me with his delver, It flips and were off to the races. I draw dead, he attacks me, I draw a ritual and activate belcher, thinking this was all but done, he reveals his ace in the hole like a true stalwart poker player, Stifle the belcher activation. I calmly agree, under his breath or while im focusing on other things he mentions that he has another stifle and that I am dead, I let him attack me and then he passes back and I rip another mana source to try again, he reiterates that he had the stifle, I apologize for not listening and its off to game 2.

In between boarding I notice that Rubin from the SCG team is watching from a few feet back of the table and talking with the show runner, Its at this point that I realize that I am being scouted for coverage.
Game 2 I board in carpet of flowers and cabal therapy as well as autumn's veil. I start off with an early carpet of flowers and I believe he as some light pressure but I stabilize behind a D4 and eventually push through a belcher with no land in my deck. GG.
Game 3: Rubin sits down next to Tannon. Now I know that playing under pressure is part of the game but I could really tell that if i wanted coverage of PSI that I was going to have to win this last game. Again it came down to me having I believe 1 or 2 carpet of flower as well as my young wolf to kill to my culling the weak in order to belcher for the win. I can remember the tension in the game and my focus and determination to win in order to have a chance for a deck tech or feature match.

3-0

After the game tannon turns and ask Rubin if he would have played anything out differently, he seemed satisfied with the response that he had played to his best outs. Then I get asked if I would do a deck tech, now I know that a lot of people know of or keep this deck as a pet side project but I was really happy to be asked to talk about the deck and to get some exposure for it. I wont really talk about the deck tech other than to say that I put the deck together the day before and have mostly spent my time playing doomsday before going back to pick up PSI, some of the card choices are my own. As Vacrix has pointed out were at the time sub optimal and probably changed out for a more standard list. Just play whatever your most comfortable with.

Round 4 Richard-1st Place overall

Richard was a really nice guy and a great opponent to play against. As we sat down he asked if I had just finished a deck tech, I replied that I had, he scoffed that he should have actually looked to see what deck I had laid out on the table.
Game 1: I have a note that I played a D4 dropping me to 10 life he spends his turn casting a show and tell for and Emrakul and I put out a belcher and then my only other note is that I misfired on a belcher I believe it was for 9dmg. Game 2: This would be the game that I let go for the stupidest reason.

It was my misplay that cost me the game. The situation becomes that I have a land and an LED and a carpet of flowers on the field, along with a dark ritual, D4 and a belcher in my hand. I keep weighing my options and lines of play realizing that if I simply wait for him to play a show and tell that I will put in a belcher and activate on the spot. After spending time debating between a D4 or my belcher I foolishly pick up my belcher from hand, announce my intent to activate carpet of flowers and then put belcher on the stack. No sooner had I done this then I knew I was sunk, he forces pitching show and tell. Untaps and shows in a grislebrand. I die to the 7/7 after a hit and a dead draw.

3-1
Again Richard was a great guy and it was a good game, although I knew that if I didnt misplay that my deck would get me the other game and the match.

Round 4: Bruce on R/B Goblins

Apparently R/B Goblins is the deck to play when people like BUG Decks.

Game 1 I mull to 5 and have a slow hand, he starts with lackey and beats me down to 16 before I have a belcher kill on turn 3, it felt a little dirty just winning on a mull to 5 on turn 3 after Im sure it looked like I was really far behind but game 1 unless they have the nuts I dont think goblins has any way to end the game faster than you can stumble onto a win.

Game 2: I have an Iggy loop that goes IT into Culling the weak, Dark ritual and a D4. The D4 is a IT, LED, Culling the Weak and a D4. I kill my young wolf 2 times that turn and go hellbent on the tutor to get a tendrils for lethal storm.

4-1

Round 5: Christian Keeth

After winning back the prior round I felt that I may have over thought my lose and that I was still in the running to finish well.

Game 1 He starts off with a thoughseize and takes my first mana accelerent, next its followed up by a hymn that hits my only 2 win conditions in hand, from that point I knew I would have to get lucky to stay in the game. He didnt have much pressure and was only able to play a delver and it would take it several turns to flip. His delver hits me to 19 and I draw a D4 for the turn, I know that I have to go off now if possible as he had exhausted his hand. My notes show that I cast 4 D4 and never found a win condition I die with 6 black mana floating and more in hand. I was all dressed up with nowhere to go.

Game 2 This game I remember for the fact that I had 2 carpet of flowers, he again had some pressure but this time from nimble mongoose. On the turn that I had to go off I started with an Autumn's veil , he force back,so i hedged my bets and went all in only to see another force and blue card as his only 2 cards in hand.

Im 4-2 and I know that im out of the running for top 8

Round 7: Arthur Naugle: U/R Burn, or what I thought was RUG Delver 14th in final standings I believe.

This match really comes down to Arthur having one game 1 after I had a bad D4 and he burned me out with a few bolts. Game 2 though was another punt on my part, I was sculpting a hand that was only lacking protection, I was attempting to wait for either a cabal therapy or a veil when I passed to Aruthur while I was at I believe 7, now I had thought that he was on RUG for the first game as all that I saw was Volcanic Island, so in play he has a bloodstained mire, this i chalked up to him not having the right fetches and saying earlier in the match that he had borrowed the deck from a friend for the tourney. So I pass expecting that the worst he can do is drop me to 1 if the has 2 bolt effects, he cracks his fetch and gets a basic mountain. Alarms start ringing in my head, " hes a burn deck you idiot why didnt you just try to win." he bolts me , flips his delver off a chain lightning and fireblasts me. I die with the win in hand.

I ask him after if he had the force or any counter at all, he didnt. The deck is better than me. If you have the win in hand you should try to win. Just my 2 cents in hindsight.

4-3 and I guess its a top 32 finish that Im looking for now.

Round 8: Luke: Sam Black Zombies

This is a match that I know I should be able to win, I start off strong with a turn 2 belcher for the win in game 1. Game 2 I start off with a D4 into a belcher misfire, I get to see that his only relevant board cards are surgical extraction. Game 3 is determined by my misplay of forgetting that I want to kill him with a belcher and that i dont need to keep petals in hand to increase a storm count. I loose a hand of double summoners pact and double lotus petal to cabal therapy. Sadly thats it, I die with a wimper rather than a bang.

4-4
50 dollars and I sign off on 60th place.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, again I apologize for my lack of indepth notes, everyone that I played against was great, the deck was a blast to pick up and I was beyond happy to get a deck tech and shine a bit of light on this old deck.

[Ricardio]

Burning-Tree Emissary (R/G) (R/G)

Creature - Human Shaman

When Burning-Tree Emissary enters the battlefield, add RG to your mana pool.

Those who regard the Gruul as savage simpletons underestimate the subtle power of their shamans.

Illus. Izzy. 2/2

Omg! What if this is a cycle?!?

[Dark Ritual]

Burning-Tree Emissary (R/G) (R/G)

Creature - Human Shaman

When Burning-Tree Emissary enters the battlefield, add RG to your mana pool.

Those who regard the Gruul as savage simpletons underestimate the subtle power of their shamans.

Illus. Izzy. 2/2

Omg! What if this is a cycle?!?

I doubt it's a cycle. The card makes zero sense in blue black design wise. Even if it was a cycle, there won't be a green black one since golgari isn't in this set. UG would be sort've neat although even then it probably wouldn't make the cut in this deck.

[Ricardio]

I am just saying its something that has been talked about previously in the thread. A creature that has a EtB that gives mana and gives us a solid CTW target. It will find a better home in pure belcher but its something new to look at. That and whispering madness although I believe it to be a worse slithermuse. All avenues must be sought to find the perfect direction.

[slave]

Hi all,

I'm currently running a LED-less list due to me having a dog of a time tracking some down - that aside, my list is currently in a state of flux as I try out new ways of configuring the remaining spots.
-4 LED, -1 Pact, -2 Belcher (1 in the main)
In their place I'm running more mana sources, +1 Bayou (2 in main), +1 Taiga, +2 Simian Spirit Guide (I'm running 2 EtW) and the last slot has been in flux with creatures, PiF, Mirri's Guile etc etc. I actually really enjoying Mirri's Guile in there.
My biz is 3 Tendrils, 2 EtW & a single Belch.
What else could I try to get the most of out being 1 Pact and 4 Led's down?

I have a few questions re:the current state of PSI.
I've seen many of the older lists running both a Cutter and one of Odious Trow/SlitherHead/Deathrite Shaman in the main.
But many of the more recent lists have dropped one of these, with quite a few just running Cutter.
Why is this?

DRS has been great in goldfishing - but I'm finding over and over, that DRS is a magnet for removal and counter.
I never had this issue with Trow or Slitherhead. For the times I want to actually tap it and get mana etc etc., I can't keep it alive until my next turn.
For those of you who run DRS, have you also found this to be a problem?
Is this a reason enough for anyone out there to consider not running it in the main?

Cheers

[lochlan]

This deck is totally unplayable without a set of LEDs.


I've seen many of the older lists running both a Cutter and one of Odious Trow/SlitherHead/Deathrite Shaman in the main.
But many of the more recent lists have dropped one of these, with quite a few just running Cutter.
Why is this?

Because those pilots have been happier with the utility of one creature over the other, of course. I'm playing both Deathrite Shaman and Skyshroud Cutter in my list. There is no consensus on the "correct" way to configure the creature suite.


DRS has been great in goldfishing - but I'm finding over and over, that DRS is a magnet for removal and counter.

If your Deathrite Shaman is getting countered and/or your opponents are leaving in removal for it, you're in great shape. I would almost always prefer that my opponents counter my sheep to be culled instead of my business.

[slave]

Thanks.

Yeah I kinda assumed the deck lost a bit of bite without LED's.

Cabal Therapy can hit anything potentially, and has flashback to increase storm with no mana cost possibly.....
Why Duress over Cabal Therapy in the side?

[lochlan]

I don't think PSI wants to board in hand destruction versus a hate bear deck (although I have considered it many times) so hitting creatures doesn't seem too important. On the other hand, if you're playing a Robot SI list or some other configuration with a lot of actual creatures (thus enabling flashback more readily), Cabal Therapy is awesome.

[slave]

I don't think PSI wants to board in hand destruction versus a hate bear deck (although I have considered it many times) so hitting creatures doesn't seem too important........

On this I agree - but the ability to get rid of Teeg (read: Green Sun's Zenith), Thalia or a Glacial Chasm (postboard) seems like it's definitely worth it for me, even if we don't use it for it's flashback.


.....if you're playing a Robot SI list or some other configuration with a lot of actual creatures (thus enabling flashback more readily), Cabal Therapy is awesome

I guess this is where I may differ - I've been running a couple more creatures than some lists (that's until I track down a set of LED's! :mad:)
I agree with what Vacrix was saying about Young Wolf (in that Cutter is much more useful), but I've been liking having it in the main with Therapy in the side to make use of it against control or combo.
I might just try a Kobold and see how that works out.

[Vacrix]

Sometimes hitting creatures is crucial though. I've been playing 3 Thoughtseizes in my current post-board and I've won more than a few games having had the ability to take creature with it. Sometimes you run into U-control decks that play Thalia, Meddling Mage, Clique, etc. Sometimes even taking SFM is the right call because they completely lose their clock, or if they don't have the mana, I wait for them to find Batterskull, then take it with discard so they lose their easiest win condition.

I have yet to reach a conclusion about Lotus Bloom but I haven't had much time lately to test the board. The good thing about the board so far is that Thoughtseize is versatile enough to attack their potential clock as well as their permission. Turn 1 Bloom(s), if resolves, is basically game if you back it up with the right cards. You play out some perpetual resources here and there, perhaps a discard spell. Then on turn 4ish, Bloom tries to resolve. You can fight over its resolution with your perps, perhaps a Drit/Crit to draw out as much permission as possible.. but ultimately the opponent has to deal with you having 8 cards, one resolving, any perps you've acquired.. that or you get very aggressive with your perpetual resources and discard early on to prepare for the Lotus Bloom.


Lets look at an example hand..

Hand:
Petal, Chrome Mox, Thoughtseize, Duress, Cabal Ritual, Elvish Spirit Guide, Lotus Bloom

Seems good. a perpetual resource, 2 protection spells, acceleration, and some Daze protection.

T1: Chrome Mox (imprint Crit), suspend Lotus Bloom
T2: Draw, Cruel Bargain, Duress.. taking Spell Pierce, seeing a hand of Force, Force, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Daze.. so he has 4 countermagic, left, 3 if he doesn't draw another blue card.
T3: Draw Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, he Dazes, I remove ESG, and take one of the Forces. I play out the Lotus Petal just to avoid running into a Flusterstorm if I have to play around it later.
T4: Lotus Bloom resolves, no countermagic. He's rather counter the business and not lose to Belcher because he can't counter it with Flusterstorm if I have more acceleration in hand, which is Dark Ritual, Cruel Bargain.. I draw Infernal Contract.

Combo turn:
We know the opponent still has Force and Flusterstorm, and if they've drawn a blue card then they can play both. We've encounter a light clock, heavy permission.

Bloom, Mox, Petal in play. Access to BB BBB, Drit in hand. So we have 7 black mana. and 2 business spells. However, if the opponent has a blue card, then we will run into Flusterstorm... Bloom, CB, FoW, Drit, IC means we'll have to pay 6 fucking mana. So.. I'll crack the Bloom for BBB, play Cruel Bargain 2 spells on the stack. The opponent has a tough choice here. Flusterstorm or Force of Will. Flusterstorm invites me play Dark Ritual to pay for it. Force completely shuts me down. Force is probably the safer play. So we encounter Force, he removes a Ponder. I'll wait that way I don't run full force into the Flusterstorm.

T5: Draw LED
LED, Dark Ritual, Infernal Contract, he Flusterstorms, I pay 4 with LED/Petal. Draw 4

LG, Carpet of Flowers, Carpet of Flowers, IT

LG --> Bayou, Carpet, pass to second mainphase, play Carpet

T6: Draw Petal
IT --> Belcher... since Carpets add 2 each, plus Petal/Bayou. we have access to 6 mana per turn.. in a savage topdeck mode.

GG from here

Granted, its an example hand against a hand chalk full of countermagic just to recall one of the games I had on Cockatrice. It was similar to this one. Against a RUG player, I encountered basically 6 or 7 countermagic. So imagine exactly what I just described, only he counters the IT, and the next Belcher, then I finally sneak through a Belcher. Still tweaking the board but I like it so far.

[Darklingske]

Hello everyone,

is there an up-to-date list available? I find the lists in the openingpost a tad bit outdated. Or is it just me?

[Vacrix]

Updated the primer a bit. I'll be getting to a more indepth update sometime soon. I've just been quite busy with an incalculable number of things.


However.. there is an updated list now right above the sample hands list.

[Darklingske]

Great! Thanks a lot!!

Oh, and do keep up the amazing job Vacrix!

[Ricardio]

Any tips against tempo decks? I always have a hard time for some reason. And post board keepable hands.

[Vacrix]

Your game plan against Tempo in Game 1 is simply to force an early win. Extra stacked hands can push through sometimes if you slow play though, for example, if you were to put your opponent on Tempo before you even sit down because you scouted. For example.. a hand thats doubled up on a few different things, so a hand like Petal, Chrome Mox, Drit, D4, IT, LED, D4

This hand is stacked. You have quite a bit of mana to work with. 2 initial black sources, post-Mox you have 2 business. If you get one more ritual then you can push through a FoW.. however, if I were on the play, I'd probably try for an early D4 with the option of IT/LED as a backup plan later on.. however if you're on the draw, you can only play around Pierce + Daze, via LED. This means your 8th card lets you know whether or not to play out some of your perps and try to play around an assumed FoW, Spell Pierce as the general worst case scenario when you're T1 on the draw. If you draw a ritual, then you're good to go. If you draw an ESG, sometimes you can just try to play around Daze. If you draw a LED, you should probably wait another turn for a mana source that way you have the option to D4, then IT + LED + LED into EtW, assuming the D4 gets countered and then IT gets Spell Pierced. If you don't draw something you want, then dumping the LED to pay for a Spell Pierce looks pretty attractive, given its Game 1 against Tempo and you want to win asap.

In game 2/3, I'd suggest trying to keep a hand that gives you a solid accelerant. Lotus Bloom is good, Carpet is good. Either one makes playing around Tempo's soft permission much easier. Even Lotus Bloom, which is a one shot acceleration is quite good as it draws countermagic before you even go off, and compliments LED nicely for x8 conditional Black Lotus. 4x Duress and 3x Thoughtseize help you pave the way with your perps to resolve a business spell sooner.. however all this really depends on the matchup.

Against BUG Tempo, they usually play more lands than RUG.. this makes Carpet of Flowers much better, so you can actually grind with your business. Against RUG though, you want to strip the FOW's with discard and then resolve one business spell through some soft permission, ideally a Belcher, but if you expect the Tempo player to have a hand stacked with permission, you best save the Belcher as the last spell. Against RUG, you don't actually want your D4s to resolve too often because it puts you usually down to having to win on the next turn, or the turn the D4 resolves. Your life total winds up being too low and vulnerable to reach.

UR Tempo is probably the worst, but the metagame doesn't really favor it right now. They have the most reach because they don't slow down to play Goyf/Goose. In that matchup, you really, like really don't want a mid-late game D4..


In general against control, though, always play your Carpets/Blooms first, then play disruption, then play D4s, then ITs, then Belchers. ITs can be good for doubling up on Carpet of Flowers against slower control decks.. but a single Daze tends to waste that plan when you try it against Tempo. I prefer ITs finding Belchers against Tempo. With Blooms, Carpet, and LEDs, and even Cabal Rituals once you hit threshold, the deck has an absurd amount of mana in game 2/3 if you mulligan well. However, if they attack that plan by countering an early Carpet, I tend to treat that as my protection. They run a serious risk of holding only Spell Pierce, for example. If you're play is ESG/Carpet turn 1, I've had that countered before, and then just Petal/Drit/D4 my way into a lot of perpetual resources etc. or just a straight up win. In general, I've won more games against people that try to attack Carpet and Bloom instead of the rest of the deck, not knowing that its still dangerous without these resources. So if your opponent is forced to make a choice between countering a spell that costs G or 0... vs. a spell that costs BBB or 4.. we don't waste our other acceleration options like Drit, Crit, LED, on those cards.. not to mention the x7 discard suite. The Tempo players safest bet is to engage the grind plan and hope the deck bricks.. which is how they tend to approach the matchup when they see you draw 4 cards and then pass the turn instead of killing them. Well.. thats what you want. The grind plan sacrifices speed for consistency, so usually a D4 is just more resources for you and ideally win conditions.



EDIT:
Also, if you like, you can just play x7-8 man plan creatures instead if you want to make a business substitution. It might actually be the best idea for the current metagame. RUG is still amazing. UW is dying and that means so is Swords to Plowshares. BUG control's spot removal can't hit Phyrexian Obliterator.. and RUGS reach is useless. Desecration Demon also looks pretty good as a 6/6 flying for 2BB.

[Sockosensei]

@Vacrix

How does the Lotus Bloom Plan stack up vs the previous Grind Plan?
I sold my Blooms about a month before you mentioned testing it...

[slave]

Hey dudes.

I love this deck. Been playing this deck on and off for a while.
But I have a question for all of you.

I thought I'd give TES, ANT, Belcher etc. a go and see what pro's & con's I could take from each of them compared to PSI.
And I gotta admit, I cam back to this deck with a smile every time. PSI just seems more fun to play, and I found TES to be kinda deflating in comparison. I understand PSI is a dangerous deck, and that versions like TES are more resilient to hate, but PSI just makes me want to play the deck. All the others felt kinda "take it or leave it".

Does anyone else feel this way about other Storm atlernatives?

[CabalTherapy]

I ve been playing this deck for a while but then I sold most of the cards. Now I am going to rebuild it and I try to find a solid list.
Currently, I am testing this list. Please comment on it.

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Wild Cantor
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bayou
1 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Manamorphose
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Past in Flames
1 Odious Trow
4 Land Grant

[Sockosensei]

I ve been playing this deck for a while but then I sold most of the cards. Now I am going to rebuild it and I try to find a solid list.
Currently, I am testing this list. Please comment on it.

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Wild Cantor
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bayou
1 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Manamorphose
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Past in Flames
1 Odious Trow
4 Land Grant

Welcome back to SI!
Having 1x Empty the Warrens would give you a strong option for 'in-between' hands. IGG > PiF in most cases, but running both is also an option.

I suggest starting with
-1 Tendrils
-1 PiF
-1 Odious Trow (sad to see it go as I'll miss my opponents' WTF expressions)

+1 Empty
+1 IGG
+1 Deathrite Shaman

Are you running the old grind plan, the newer Lotus Bloom plan, or a manplan?

[CabalTherapy]

But is Empty the Warrens not too weak when Summoner's Pact was cast before?
The shaman looks pretty good. The Trow is just still in there, simply because I am not in the possession of the shaman.
I am still not sure if PiF is really weaker than IGG.

My SB contains some random protection cards and manland plan.
4 Duress
3 Unmask
4 Contagion
4 Tomb of Urami



Welcome back to SI!
Having 1x Empty the Warrens would give you a strong option for 'in-between' hands. IGG > PiF in most cases, but running both is also an option.

I suggest starting with
-1 Tendrils
-1 PiF
-1 Odious Trow (sad to see it go as I'll miss my opponents' WTF expressions)

+1 Empty
+1 IGG
+1 Deathrite Shaman

Are you running the old grind plan, the newer Lotus Bloom plan, or a manplan?

[Sockosensei]

But is Empty the Warrens not too weak when Summoner's Pact was cast before?
The shaman looks pretty good. The Trow is just still in there, simply because I am not in the possession of the shaman.
I am still not sure if PiF is really weaker than IGG.


My philosophy when playing PSI is to clean up in game one against all but the decks with Force in hand. The IGG loop just wins:tongue:
Or it makes you 18 T1 goblins while also Mind Twisting your opponent. PiF is much stronger when the game goes longer and graveyards fill up, hence great out of the board in a grind plan. It's not out of the question to run both, IMO.

EtW is poor after a Pact, certainly. It also shines at other times. Feel free to read up as it's been discussed to death.



My SB contains some random protection cards and manland plan.
4 Duress
3 Unmask
4 Contagion
4 Tomb of Urami

I've never run anything like that so perhaps another poster could comment.

[anotherday]

Seeing as how the PSI list is pretty much optimized, how about some more sideboard tech?
Multani's Presence - A little narrow, but seeing as how PSI's biggest problem is blue, why not make them pay with each counter?
Epochrasite - Kind of slow but it's a recurring 4/4 threat after the first time it goes to the graveyard. It easily gets outclassed by our other postboard man-plan options and even opposing Tarmogoyfs but it allows you to keep a few Cullings MD for games 2-3.
Ancestral Vision - It facilitates the grind plan pretty well if drawn early enough but I can see it being dead if drawn too late or midway through a chain. Costing :u: also doesn't really help much either.

Just throwing ideas out there. I don't have the means to test my ideas, at least not yet, but I'm working on it. Also, I haven't read through the entire thread yet so apologies if the cards I suggested have already been discussed. I just finished reading the entire thread at Salvation so I'll start on this one soon.

P.S. I just was digging through my old box of magic cards the other day and lo-and-behold, I found my ALMOST completed PSI deck! I misplaced it about 3 years ago and kind of forgot about it. Imagine my surprise when I flipped through the deck and discovered my PLAYSET of LED's! :laugh:. I bought them back when they were 30 bucks a pop and I thought THAT was already highway robbery. For the maindeck, all I'm really missing are 4 IT's, 4 Pacts, a Cruel Bargain, and a Bayou. Luckily I pulled a Overgrown Tomb out of a Ravnica pack a while back so that'll hold me down for a while. The Legacy scene here in MN is pretty active and hardcore. The last tournament I went to (over a year ago) also had a guy playing what looked to be LGSI so I know the deck isn't totally unknown up here.

[CabalTherapy]

My philosophy when playing PSI is to clean up in game one against all but the decks with Force in hand. The IGG loop just wins:tongue:
Or it makes you 18 T1 goblins while also Mind Twisting your opponent. PiF is much stronger when the game goes longer and graveyards fill up, hence great out of the board in a grind plan. It's not out of the question to run both, IMO.

EtW is poor after a Pact, certainly. It also shines at other times. Feel free to read up as it's been discussed to death.




Thank you for the answer. I will definetly test both of the options.
Still unsure about EtW but I will also give it a try.

[Final Fortune]

Updated the primer a bit. I'll be getting to a more indepth update sometime soon. I've just been quite busy with an incalculable number of things.


However.. there is an updated list now right above the sample hands list.

There are a few mana base configurations in the primer that I think you either failed to consider or mention, a couple of people replaced the Land Grant, Goblin Charbelcher and Artifact Creature configurations with Swamps, Empty the Warrens and Kobolds circa 2007 in order to improve the consistency of the deck by playing 7 lands that didn't reveal your hand and couldn't be destroyed by permission and Wasteland and imprintable creatures for Chrome Mox in order to be able to cast Cabal Ritual without exiling black cards.

I know BW played a list on Apprentice that was like,

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cabal Therapy
8 Kobolds
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
7 Swamp

and remember at least one variation with Empty the Warrens and Duress replacing Ill Gotten Gains and Cabal Therapy.

[CabalTherapy]

I have goldfished a bit and tested against Burn which is by far not the optimal test partner but nevertheless I reached my favourite list:

4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Tendrils of Agony
2 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
2 Manamorphose (still not sure about that)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Odious Trow (don't have shaman)
1 Wild Cantor
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou

[CabalTherapy]

Sorry for doubleposting here.
I have played a Legacy torunament yesterday with around 30 players in my local meta.
My list was the one from the post before: changes -1 Manamoprhose, +1 Tinder Wall

SB
3 Unmask
2 Duress
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Nature's Claim
4 Tomb of Urami

Round 1 against GB Shaman.dec
I keep a solid hand but without starting mana. I simply hope that he doesn't Duress me or whatever.
He playes Ooze and Vampire Nighthawk, I draw a Lotus Petal and go off with Tendrils for 20 at his head.
The second game was a bit annoying. I goldfished against myself for about 10 minutes and just draw senseless spells. After going down to 1 I lay down Belcher. He plays Goyf and I lose after drawing one more Bargain. In the last game I go off in my second turn and win with third turn Belcher.
2:1
1-0

Round 2 against Jund
He starts with Bayou > Shaman and I know that I can just goldfish a bit and with the game. I fizzle afterwards in the second game and move on to the third. I play Bayou and pass the turn. He plays Duress > Summoner's Pact and Surgical Extraction > Summoner's Pact. Mhhhmm... After a combination of Duress, Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach there is no chance to win the game with 2 LEDs and 2 Spirit Guides in Hand.
1:2
1-1

Round 3 against UW Countertop
I have to play against an well-known legacy player in our meta. I win the dice roll and simply kill him with turn 1 Belcher with Bayou in play and Arbor in Hand. I don't know that he plays but he knows my deck and is very surprised to see someone playing it. Nevertheless he has 2 FoW, 1 Spell Pierce and a Counterbalance in the second game: scoop. We both take a mulligan to six in the third game and I start off in my second turn with Bayou > Petal > DRitual > DRitual > IGG, discarding a Infernal Tutor and a Culling the Weak. He has no Force and I can pick up the Rituals and the Tutor > Charbelcher without Mana for the activation. He plays land go and I draw a Spirit Guide and then a Cabal Ritual. I think that I can wait one more turn and kill him in response to one of his action. He casts a Clique in my next draw step and in response to that I remove my Guide, tap Bayou, cast CRitual and activate Belcher for about 30 damage.
2:1
2-1

Round 4 against SneakShow
I try to go off in my second turn but he has a Force for my Infernal Tutor and everything he wants in his hand, so we move to the second game. I try to kill him on turn one but I just can lay down Belcher with two Moxen and one Bayou in play= second turn kill. In the final game we both take a mulligan to six and he starts with land > Brainstorm > Petal. I draw something good (can't remember) and go off with 2 Leds and Infernal into Infernal into Tendrils for 24.
2:1
3-1

Round 5 against Dredge
Well, I don't want to write about this round because it was my fault to keep a weak six and do nothing. In the next game I try to go off in my first turn (senseless, he holds a slow hand) and fizzle after the first Contract.
0:2
3-2

Nevertheless, I am satisfied with my result in this tournament. I placed 9th or something like that but it doesn't matter. Winning against Countertop and SneakShow on turn 1 was pretty a pretty cool experience for me. I will play this deck regularly in the future.

[Final Fortune]

I've been experimenting with different versions of SI and I think I've created the best possible MD for the Pact SI variant,

4 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill Gotten Gains or Past in Flames or Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Pact of Negation
4 Elivish Spirit Guide
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

That's right, MD Chancellor of the Annex, imagine having a card that prevents the opponent from casting Thoughtseize on his first turn and Force of Will on your first turn vs BUG and preventing the opponent from casting Spell Pierce, Brainstorm or Ponder and leaving Force of Will as his only out on the play vs RUG with the SB plan of boarding out your Chancellor of the Annex and 3 Elvish Spirit Guide for Xantid Swarm and 3 more Bayou vs any aggro-control deck that doesn't play Lightning Bolt or any control deck that doesn't play Thoughtseize aka U/W Stoneblade or Miracles.

Small tip, but lands in your SB are completely OP compared to a lot of the other SBing plans I've seen, once the deck switches to lands and swarms vs aggro-control on the draw or just SBs out disruption for lands when on the play vs anything without Force of Will game 2 it's pretty much the most efficient way you could play the deck for either resiliency or a pure gold fish.

The look on your opponent's face when you show him Chancellor of the Annex and then blow him out of the game is fucking priceless

[.Ix]

I think you meant 4 Summoner's Pact instead of Pact of Negation in that list, since you said "Pact SI".

I never thought of running Chancellor in this deck, but it definitely makes sense. Interesting tech, there. Is it too hard to make 7 mana now that Chancellor is in the deck? I assume that's the reason for having no Charbelchers in the main.

[emidln]

I think you meant 4 Summoner's Pact instead of Pact of Negation in that list, since you said "Pact SI".

I never thought of running Chancellor in this deck, but it definitely makes sense. Interesting tech, there. Is it too hard to make 7 mana now that Chancellor is in the deck? I assume that's the reason for having no Charbelchers in the main.

Lack of Belcher and playing Chancellor are just indicators that the person putting together the list has no idea what drives the deck or the pressures that form the rules for card selection.

The deck will only improve if you can do one of three things:

(1) increase initial mana sources in the necessary colors (this is currently black, due to point 2)
(2) increase the explosiveness due to better net acceleration (this means improve on (possibly by duplicating) dark ritual and culling the weak, red rituals are not good enough yet)
(3) better business spells (see the experiment SAINT)

If you compare SI to the other two fast glass cannons, you see these three points emphasized.

Belcher fixes one by basing itself in R/G. This means more real initial mana sources (ESG, SSG, Summoner's Pact, Chancellor of the Tangle sometimes) complementing Petal/Mox/Land Grant/Land. It exchanges raw explosiveness of Culling the Weak and Dark Ritual for redundancy and more available copies of its acceleration (Rite of Flame and Tinder Wall are very close for example, the various forms of Desperate/Pyretic Ritual). Now that it's in red, easy ability to cast ETW and Burning Wish over Infernal Tutor follows.

This isn't to say that Belcher evolved from SI. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if you want to build moderately effective glass cannons, you must balance these factors. You can look at the All Spells deck in the same way. It has the best business spells of any deck (4 mana, gg x8) and then makes decisions based on that (it still has a black mana requirement, but not as heavy as SI, so Culling the Weak isn't as attractive given the constraints it imposes (the creature in play).

That said, free Force Spike is a lot worse than Pact of Negation or Cabal Therapy because it doesn't work if it's not in your opening hand. Something I learned very early on with SI was patience. Against some control decks, things won't get significantly worse for you as the game progresses. The ability to grind via redundant business spells, generate obscene mana, and in certain versions, to defeat multiple copies of spells via Cabal Therapy meant that waiting until turn 6 was completely reasonable. I still found my free wins vs aggro, but I was successful against control too. Eventually, other pilots learned the same lessons and the gravitation towards sideboard cards like Carpet of Flowers and better maindeck win conditions like Goblin Charbelcher began.

The reason that Belcher is an auto-include in the deck has to do with recognizing that chaining Draw4s isn't a good strategy, mathematically speaking. Needing a particular mix of mana and business each time when digging relatively little into a large deck yields poor odds. Drawing Tendrils at the right time might as well be drawing Draco, Mountain Goat, or Little Girl. Drawing a Belcher is fine at any point. Further, it doesn't require the giant build-up that Tendrils takes. This makes it perfect for grindy battles that often ensue once your opponent realizes that a single Force of Will didn't yield a concession.

[Final Fortune]

Lack of Belcher and playing Chancellor are just indicators that the person putting together the list has no idea what drives the deck or the pressures that form the rules for card selection.

The deck will only improve if you can do one of three things:

(1) increase initial mana sources in the necessary colors (this is currently black, due to point 2)
(2) increase the explosiveness due to better net acceleration (this means improve on (possibly by duplicating) dark ritual and culling the weak, red rituals are not good enough yet)
(3) better business spells (see the experiment SAINT)

If you compare SI to the other two fast glass cannons, you see these three points emphasized.

Belcher fixes one by basing itself in R/G. This means more real initial mana sources (ESG, SSG, Summoner's Pact, Chancellor of the Tangle sometimes) complementing Petal/Mox/Land Grant/Land. It exchanges raw explosiveness of Culling the Weak and Dark Ritual for redundancy and more available copies of its acceleration (Rite of Flame and Tinder Wall are very close for example, the various forms of Desperate/Pyretic Ritual). Now that it's in red, easy ability to cast ETW and Burning Wish over Infernal Tutor follows.

This isn't to say that Belcher evolved from SI. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if you want to build moderately effective glass cannons, you must balance these factors. You can look at the All Spells deck in the same way. It has the best business spells of any deck (4 mana, gg x8) and then makes decisions based on that (it still has a black mana requirement, but not as heavy as SI, so Culling the Weak isn't as attractive given the constraints it imposes (the creature in play).

That said, free Force Spike is a lot worse than Pact of Negation or Cabal Therapy because it doesn't work if it's not in your opening hand. Something I learned very early on with SI was patience. Against some control decks, things won't get significantly worse for you as the game progresses. The ability to grind via redundant business spells, generate obscene mana, and in certain versions, to defeat multiple copies of spells via Cabal Therapy meant that waiting until turn 6 was completely reasonable. I still found my free wins vs aggro, but I was successful against control too. Eventually, other pilots learned the same lessons and the gravitation towards sideboard cards like Carpet of Flowers and better maindeck win conditions like Goblin Charbelcher began.

The reason that Belcher is an auto-include in the deck has to do with recognizing that chaining Draw4s isn't a good strategy, mathematically speaking. Needing a particular mix of mana and business each time when digging relatively little into a large deck yields poor odds. Drawing Tendrils at the right time might as well be drawing Draco, Mountain Goat, or Little Girl. Drawing a Belcher is fine at any point. Further, it doesn't require the giant build-up that Tendrils takes. This makes it perfect for grindy battles that often ensue once your opponent realizes that a single Force of Will didn't yield a concession.

Or I choose to emphasize imprinting black mana on chrome mox and drawing tendrils instead of of belchers off draw fours so I can win before summoners pact triggers as opposed to needing 7 mana to cast and activate belchers only to flip a land. I dont mind a single Belcher in the MD or multiple in the board but let's not pretend belcher is strictly superior to tendrils.

I am not a fan of waiting to go off with pact si, the deck doesn't hit land drops or sculpt its hand without investing significant resources to do so. I don't know whether or not the MD is strictly better with chancellor as opposed to veil, but even if you just SBed chancellor for being on the play vs bug or on the draw vs jund having access to a free force spike is a much bigger deal in terms of the cost efficiency of your disruption than your post would suggest. I strictly disagree with the notion that a combo deck can't improve its match ups by having better disruption, Autumn's Veil and to a lesser extent Unmask after the printing of the B/G creatures gave the deck more reliable disruption because Summoner's Pact could be used to cast either as opposed to Cabal Therapy or Xantid Swarm.

Pact of negation doesn't work with lions eye diamond and cabal therapy is sub par without lands, a more traditional version with swamps, kobolds and therapy can grind, but land grant and summoners pact are an all in strategy by design. fwiw carpet of flowers is worse than just boarding in lands, which is why I've side lined belchers. Regardless, I don't really give a shit about belchers, I find they misfire an unacceptably high% of the time but if you want to gamble with that and pact good luck. All I know is my win % with chancellor vs bug is higher than with veil and pushing the deck as hard as possible on turn 1.

[Final Fortune]

Apologies for double posting, but I've been experimenting with SI this weekend and I think there is room to innovate, one of the things that occured to me when reading thru' the thread is that Land Grant is a liability compared to Fetch Lands and that Goblin Charbelcher isn't actually worth weaking your manabase to counter magic or playing a maximum of 6 "Land" between Bayou, Dryad Arbor and 4 Land Grant. If you replace Land Grant with Fetchlands and increase the number of Fetchlands beyond 4 and the number of Bayou beyond 1 you can increase the number of initial mana sources, land drops and culling targets in the deck, which makes it both more consistent and resilient. The problem comes in where you start chaining Draw 4s and realize Culling the Weak is dead after your first Dryad Arbor is sacrificed or after you've played Bayou and can't make a second land drop for Dryad Arbor on the same turn, which is where Summoners Pact comes in to make the extra creature drops. Then what occurred to me was that multiple Elvish Spirit Guides take up more space than they're really worth as accelerants compared to adding more and more lands and we could cut down to 1 ESG and 1 Cutter and with a combination of 11 forests and 5 virtual cutters that Burnt Offering is really close in power to Culling the Weak when you can reliably get down the forest.

So I'm messing around on apprentice and came up with a build that tests some of the possible configurations,

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Burnt Offering
4 Summoners Pact
4 Skyshround Cutter
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
8 Fetchlands
3 Bayou

Imagine the original spanish inquisition just switching out robots for cutters and disruption for lands and I think you can get close to a deck that plays, Bayou, Cutter and either Culling the Weak or Burnt Offering as its first turn play pretty consistently. You could integrate other elements into the deck by SBing in 4 Cabal Ritual, an Elvish Spirit Guide, a Dryad Arbor, a Deathrite Shaman and SBing out 4 Burnt Offering 3 Cutters in order to increase the utility of the fetchlands and summoners pact or cut pact altogether and try running Xantid Swarms in match ups with minimal removal spells in order to hit a double land drop, attack and sac Xantid Swarm and then hold the B/G mana back for possibly needing to cast another Xantid Swarm for a sac outlet.

I'm not really sure how well the idea is going to hold up, but I think it's kind of interesting to just concentrate on Tendrils so you can drop Land Grant and try to increase the number of initial mana sources and tutors for Dryad Arbor and I don't think I've seen anybody suggest going this route before.

[Masa88]

Hi!

I was just wondering if you could tell an in-depth guide for siding against different decks with your present sideboard Vacrix? Like what is going out and what is going in, or is it just usual -15 out and +15 in when you meet Force of Wills and maybe other counterspells? I am playing against different kinds of blue decks, so I was wondering do you side differently against combo, control and aggro-control. I'm asking this because I'm thinking that I could get my hands on Lotus Blooms so I'd try your grind plan against all kinds of blue decks.

At this moment I have exact decklist as your opening post, but my sideboard differs just a little:

4 Duress
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Taiga
1 balustrade spy

I have one Balustrade spy because of Oops, all spells! -deck. I've seen that it is much easier to kill by T1 than Spanish Inquisition. It's like Belcher with the speed of SI. And because the matchup is pretty much forcing a T1 kill (or you could of course side in Thoughtseizes and duresses, but in some cases one discard isn't going to stop them from winning next turn so I don't think this is valid option.), Balustrade Spy becomes much easier and smoother T1 kill than any other thing against it. You need Initial, Dark Ritual, LED and Tutor to pull off a T1 kill against that deck. And yeah, this deck type is actually surprisingly common here! (some tournaments had 2 of those decks out of 14)

[slave]

So I'm messing around on apprentice and came up with a build that tests some of the possible configurations,

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Burnt Offering
4 Summoners Pact
4 Skyshround Cutter
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
8 Fetchlands
3 Bayou

I'm not really sure how well the idea is going to hold up, but I think it's kind of interesting to just concentrate on Tendrils so you can drop Land Grant and try to increase the number of initial mana sources and tutors for Dryad Arbor and I don't think I've seen anybody suggest going this route before.

I'm gonna test it.
You don't have Dryad Arbor in your list? I like Burnt Offering, but is it worth it for so few sac-targets?
Just looking at the list;
I'm a bit worried about how you could empty your hand effectively enough to storm with Infernal Tutor, when you keep drawing lands or simply have more than one.
This could make storming trickier if you're aiming for going off on turn 1.
Anyways, see how I go.:wink:

[slave]

Did a fair bit of testing Final Fortune;
And whilst I think elements of your idea have merit - I'm still not too happy about the amount of lands.
I've stalled with too many lands in my hand quite a few times, unable to combo out with a tutor even though I've had the bomb hand staring back at me.
Hmm...

[phazonmutant]

Did a fair bit of testing Final Fortune;
And whilst I think elements of your idea have merit - I'm still not too happy about the amount of lands.
I've stalled with too many lands in my hand quite a few times, unable to combo out with a tutor even though I've had the bomb hand staring back at me.
Hmm...

Why don't you drop 4 fetches for 4 Land Grant? They do exactly the same thing, except you can play multiple Land Grants in a turn by just failing to find a land. With 7 lands you're still going to draw multiples sometimes, but at least it'll be somewhat less frequent.

FinalFortune - cool looking list! I'm going to try goldfishing it some.

[Final Fortune]

Why don't you drop 4 fetches for 4 Land Grant? They do exactly the same thing, except you can play multiple Land Grants in a turn by just failing to find a land. With 7 lands you're still going to draw multiples sometimes, but at least it'll be somewhat less frequent.

FinalFortune - cool looking list! I'm going to try goldfishing it some.

Some combination of Fetch Land and Land Grant could be optimal for gold fishing, but Fetch Land is going to be a better play than Land Grant in a real game because you can sit on your Fetch Land in order to build a mana base and you don't have to reveal your strategy to your opponent.

I'm not certain that 4 Skyshroud Cutter and Burnt Offering is correct, cutting a Bayou for a Dryad Arbor gives 8 Fetch Land and 4 Summoner's Pact a tutor for Culling the Weak fodder and an Elvish Spirit Guide gives the deck a virtual 5 Elvish Spirit Guides to help cast Cabal Rituals to the point where I think reducing the total number of Skyshroud Cutter and Burnt Offering in order to emphasize the Culling the Weak plan is probably more consistent, if less explosive.

This could be interesting for example,

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Inferal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Land Grant
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Skyshroud Cutter
1 Deathrite Shaman

[Moraxus]

Apolpgize for the question, but Just training myself for a small tournament next sunday. I expect a few miracle, BUG,canadian( tempo UGR) maybe esperblade, and some rogue deck (maybe Storm)..
Wondering if Quasi-SI will perform better .. how do you think about bug & ugr MU?
Also, the primer's lists will be fine or it is outdated?
Thks, i'll post some impression after more testing :smile:i

[Sockosensei]

Apolpgize for the question, but Just training myself for a small tournament next sunday. I expect a few miracle, BUG,canadian( tempo UGR) maybe esperblade, and some rogue deck (maybe Storm)..
Wondering if Quasi-SI will perform better .. how do you think about bug & ugr MU?
Also, the primer's lists will be fine or it is outdated?
Thks, i'll post some impression after more testing :smile:i

I've not heard a single report of anyone having success with QSI.

PSI with the grind plan, or the Robot list perhaps with the 'man-plan' sideboard would almost certainly serve you better.

You'll find a more active discussion of this deck on MTGSalvation.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I played SI-like deck in a small Legacy tournament yesterday, a dozen of ppl or so came to "that other LGS" for four rounds of swiss. (There are two LGS in our city, the small one that helds T1,5 on Mondays and some 10-15 ppl come, while the other helds T1,5 on Thursdays with approx. 20+ ppl coming. The second LGS has a bit better prize structure, too.)

A small notes before proceeding to decklist and report:
I play Magic for nearly two decades, and for the past several years I play exclusively Legacy. I got quite some collection, nothing special, but I may choose from several tier1 decks, including (but not limited to) RUG, Dredge, ANT, DDFT, etc. But even though I got alll these decks available, I don't have much success in past months, namely because I stopped to play(test) MtG and because there's hardly a deck I really like enough to force myself into master(bat)ing it. Mostly I play ANT, but the hate is amazing today, also ppl finally learned to play against it.
With this in mind, I decided that in the future I may still finish the tournaments with my usual "1:3", "0:2 drop" results, but this time I might have some fun with the unusual, bizzare and outright bed decks. So I unsleeved RUG, ANT and etc., and on that moment Bed Decks Player was born.

On decklist - I built the deck from what I've got, I just rode to the bigger store for the fourth Veteran Explorer ('cause they listed it as a Weatherlight one, of course it wasn't) and the last Land Grant that I was lazy to search for. The whole playtesting consisted of dozen goldfishes with perfect-sized deck mising the two cards, then I grabbed the finally "tuned" pack, thrown it into Ultra Pros and rushed to the city.


2x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island

4x Xantid Swarm
4x Veteran Explorer
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

3x Cabal Therapy

4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x DarkRitual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak

4x Infernal Contract
2x Cruel Bargain
4x Meditate

4x Land Grant
4x Infernal Tutor

2x Tendrils of Agony

________

3x Chain of Vapor
4x Dread of Night
3x Duress
1x Cabal Therapy
4x Carpet of Flowers

As you might see, it's a mutant of SI and QSI, missing what makes both good and having what makes both crappy. The main idea was to not spend money for cards like Pact or Intent and rather play with what I got to see how the deck overally works. I liked the idea of tall men doing useful stuff before saccing them. Also maindeck Swarm was a troll atempt. I even shown the deck pre-tournament to the shop keeper, in case someone argues the insect.

1st round against RUG
1st game: I lead with Xantid Swarm, which luckily resolved and survived. Turn before I comboed out, he finally found Bolt, so I must tried to win unprotected and failed.
sideboard: Carpets and some stuff, generally speaking I overboarded. I had some trouble with sleeves, too, basically out of the 61+15, twenty had split so I had a complete mess in my cards and instead of concentrating on game and on sb-ing, I just struggled with the PVC foil.
2nd game: I tried a combo but he countered CRit. I replenished my hand ahd then played CT (Pierced), CT (flashing it for Veteran), found Forest and Swamp, LG into Bayou, Carpet, Carpet, move to the second main (he should have Bolted the Dryad during attack phase, as he knew of my Culling thanks to his Probe), 2nd main phase I took UB from Carpets, then I culled the Dryad, in response he BSed, (tapping himself out, so the only answer was FoW), and then I ToA him from hand, as he was on 13 from my attacks, his Probe and FoW.
3rd game: He had waful hand and so did I. One monet his hand revealed Jace, Pierce, Tarmogoyf and Submerge, which is strange card and he then admited that Bolt would be better. I played LP, LED, Crit with the latter not resolving and then I died to Goyf and Mangoose.


2nd round against UR Delver
1st game: A deck shown to be really bed, I like it. I ws hit by Delver, then by Abberation, then I resolved a D4 and died without playing anything else.
sideboard: same as above, just that the latex trouble was even worse. I hadn't enough time to resleve the deck. So I just took away some of the worst sleeves and then started to sleeve and sideboard all at once. We've had some fun of it, and then we bursted in laughter when I unsleeved one of my CRits (the only english one I use) and it has written "BALOG" all over the back side. I told Michal that I use this one because I got three asian ones and five English, with the four unneeded English ones in my trade binder. Strangely enough, he also has three asian and one English CRit, but I'm a winner in this contest, because of the "BALOG" alter.
Ok, back to game...
2nd game: This one was funny. I sided out 2nd ToA to find room for protection, thinking that I just kill him with big chain. Of course, when I startedthe chain with CoF on table and Culled Vetran, I had all the mana in world (something like BBBBBBB and LED+LP in play), but was stuck with IT+ToA in hand. Not playing the PiF/second ToA, I lost this game, of course.


3rd round, bye
I thrown away the Ultra Pro "sleeves" and bought Dragon Shield plus two Mirage IC so that I don't have to play the ugly 6th and 7th Ed. (Feel free to mention this in the "Exact name cards" thread...)


4th round against UBW Control
1st game I lost somehow.
sideboard: I once again overboarded.
2nd game: i had a very risky hand and after some tinkering decided to try it before he play land for Pierce/Thoughtseize. (He also kept a risky hand with no coutnerspells but two :b: discards, so I was correct on my decision.) Unluckily I had to go without land so, it was LP, DRit, LED, D4 (sac LED for BBB), brick and quit. If I had a DRit instead of Duress in my D4, I could have tried DRit, Trop, Med and win form there with CRit, LP, random :1: card, ToA

So, the deck is awful enough for me to play itagain, I just need to make my mind if I want to try the PSI or QSI route. (The latter been more likely.) Also, I'd appreciate the two remaining D4s.
Otoh, I wasted four hours of my life and quite some money on gas - remember I had to visit the other shop for the Veteran - sleeves, entry fee, cards for deck, cards for Mirage-Visions-Weatherlight deck, a peanut stick and a soda. So maybe I'll stick to some good deck next time...

Props:
Xantid Swarm main.
D4.
Slops:
Not enough sac outlets/dudes, or better said: incorrect numbers. I basically had every possible wrong combination any time possible, like double CtW and one CT with no dude to sac, or an Explorer and Dryad without anything to play.
ESG. This card sucks. It countered one Daze and that's about it.
My sb skills.

[Manroe]

Hey Guys, I'm looking for a new deck to play, is there a reason this has fallen off of the wagon within the last year? Could you weigh the pros and cons of this versus Belcher/TES/ANT?

[Asthereal]

Hey Guys, I'm looking for a new deck to play, is there a reason this has fallen off of the wagon within the last year? Could you weigh the pros and cons of this versus Belcher/TES/ANT?
SI has no cantrips and no solid mana base. That's why it is less consistent than ANT or TES. I feel it is also slightly less consistent than Belcher, because the Belcher business is better. A draw 4 spell can give you crap, while Empty the Warrens always gives you an army that should win you the game (most of the time). SI just isn't as reliable as the popular Storm decks right now. Good players can make good use of SI though. It is a lot more resilient than it looks at first glance, and it can be ludacrisly fast. I should also add that SI is way more fun to play than ANT or TES. :smile:

[Vacrix]

SI hasn't really 'fallen off the wagon' cause there never really was a wagon for this deck. There's a few people camping in the mountains and thats about it.

MTGS has a far more active forum if you're interested in constant discussion, sharing results, etc. SI players are still performing at locals, and within the last year we had one player place 26th in an SCG, and the year before that, actually, the exact same place, with a different player. So with a good pilot, the deck is still able to do quite well at large tournaments.

A lot of players are playing RSI which is the robot heavy list that plays Mox Opal, Gitaxian Probe, and Cabal Therapy. It can lead to some incredibly powerful plays, and players of this type have been developing their own sideboards to good effect, things like Lotus Bloom and Tezzeret transformations.

I and some other players still player PSI (the Pact list), which plays 0 protection, but is far more flexible than the other lists because the Pacts can transform into either a creature or a mana source.

Belcher is a largely turn 3 combo deck. 4/11 win conditions are Empty the Warrens (on rare occasions Diminishing Returns and/or Tendrils). So after you hit 14 tokens turn 1, the fastest you can win is turn 3. PSI by comparison, is a turn 1 deck, more in line with the speed of decks like Oops All the Spells (or whatever its called). The difference is this deck still holds the title of best mulligans in all of Legacy magic because you can go off with fewer resources than any other combo deck, thanks to redundancy. Petal, Drit, D4, is all you really need. Yes D4s are risky, but that comes with the territory. The PSI lists fizzle less because you don't draw into multiple protection and tallmen when you really want business and acceleration. For this reason I've stuck with PSI. Also, still comparing to Belcher, PSI actually has a sideboard plan. If you notice, the most recent lists played by Ben Perry and others have ported sideboard tech from PSI such as Carpet of Flowers. Carpet is even more abusable post-board thanks to a heavy business count. Against a slower control player like Miracles or BUG, 3 Islands means free business for the PSI. Then, you just lay business spells down until they run out of permission, and then you kill them. It works extremely well actually, and is far more fun to play for both players than the typically combo matchup where one player bends down, and the other player does nasty things. Instead, its largely, how do you out play them, surprise pay for Daze and make them waste 2 counters on something. Also, you can lay down double or triple threats on turn 1 thanks to boarding in a bunch of 1cc bombs. The deck can play a man plan as well if you want to surprise your local opponents with something they aren't prepared for.

ANT and TES are played more because they are consistent, and easy to play. PSI is significantly faster, and usually you are favored in the combo mirror because they cannot match your speed. I've won most of my combo mirrors against other storm decks. PSI, though is a combo for the dedicated combo player who enjoys playing something both difficult and rewarding. The sideboard is incredibly fun to play; in fact, I've beaten control players who claim to have had 'the best game of magic in a long time' playing against it, so you won't look like a dick at your local metagame like you would if you were playing Belcher.

Then again, I've been developing a new list that I've shared with the MTGS and Stormboard SI-teams, and its developing quite well actually. We have a BGur list that plays Brainstorm, a BGR list that plays Entomb and Burning Wish, and a BGr list that plays Entomb. So far the list is about as fast as ANT. We have a small amount of data (70 goldfish games recorded), leading us to a 2.55 (20 games), 2.9 (20 games), 2.8 (20 games), and 2.5 (10 games) turn kill ratio. So its about the speed of ANT or TES, but it plays better cards in some cases, and its far better against control than these other storm combo decks by my assessment. I'll get into these things later though, here is the list:

- VANT w/ Entomb -
Business -
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Entomb
3 Diabolic Intent
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

Protection/Utility -
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Narcomoeba

Mana -
1 Eternal Witness
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Young Wolf
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Land -
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor

We're still developing a sideboard. Direlemming is playing a BW variant, also playing Entomb. A few other players think we should go back to playing Brainstorm. Lately I've been pondering a Doomsday variant with Probe/Brainstorm/Top. Anyway, I'll explain the card choices. It shares like 37 cards or something with PSI so it was technically PSI for a long time. I started calling it Veteran ANT due to Veteran Explorer.

Business:
Infernal Tutor - Excellent tutor. Storm combo players are quite familiar with this one.
Entomb - Incredibly powerful. This card can be a creature if you need one for a sac effect, it can find business via PIF, or protection via Therapy.
Diabolic Intent - Much like IT, only its better than IT. Also, its better than Burning Wish because BW can't find LED, and thats huge if you have IT/BW in hand.
Ad Nauseam - Powerful engine.
Past in Flames - Your line of play if you have an Entomb in hand, or if you've lost too much life to go for Ad Nauseam.
Tendrils of Agony - Your kill.

Protection/Utility:
Cabal Therapy - ANT/TES do not utilize this card to its potential. Its basically a bad protection spell in other combo decks. In this one, you can flashback it frequently, or find it with Entomb for tricks.
Narcomoeba - Tricks with Entomb

Mana:
Eternal Witness - Huge card. If you have 9 mana in hand and your only business is Entomb and Pact, you can still win. You Entomb for Ad Nauseam, then you Pact, crack a LED for GGG, then Ewit for AdN, then cast AdN with the rest of your mana.
Elvish Spirit Guide - Anti-Daze tech, and helps you cast your Explorers and other green 1cc stuff on turn 1.
Summoner's Pact - Strongest card in the deck. It can turn into mana, a creature, or a business spell (Ewit). I'll talk about the drawback later.
Veteran Explorer - Another of the strongest cards in the deck. It's pseudo-ritual acceleration in that it nets you B, but you get to keep the lands. Its great for setting up.
Young Wolf - Sometimes you want to Pact for this when you have double Culling or some kind of double sac cost that you could not pay for if you grabbed Explorer.
Dark Ritual - Acceleration
Culling the Weak - More explosive acceleration than the other combo decks have access to. This is one of the cards that lets you frequently make huge-mana plays.
Lion's Eye Diamond - Combos with Pact, Entomb, DI, IT, and PIF. In other words, more cards than in any other storm combo variant.

Lands
Swamp - I like playing 4 but we can probably cut one for a basic Forest.
Verdant Catacombs - Can find a B/G source, or a Dryad Arbor if you need it for a sac effect.
Bayou - Your B/G mana sources.
Mountain - Sometimes you want to grab this when you are executing a PIF line of play. You grab it with Veteran Explorer.
Dryad Arbor - You can grab this with Catacombs or Pact.


As I've already mentioned, this deck wins somewhere between turn 2 and turn 3 on avg. Often you can set up protection as well, and many of those times you are also able to flashback therapy. The deck has natural protection from soft permission because the rituals are so explosive and the deck plays a very stable mana base thanks to Explorer. Also, Veteran Explorer is a psuedo-ritual acceleration that cannot be Spell Pierced or Flusterstormed. This is huge because it limits players to Daze, Stifle, and Force. The business of the deck (could include Pact) is so amorphous that you can usually manipulate your hand based on what you are playing to produce a win. I've talked about this deck ad nauseam on MTGS in the SI thread if anyone wants to read more (and see the results the few of us have in our limited testing).

The coolest thing you can do with this deck is probably the Eternal Witness line of play. You have no idea how satisfying it is to win with just Pact/Entomb in hand. Also, due to lines of play like this, you can produce a win by using spare DI's or ITs to look for protection or extra mana if you are taking your time in going off. Sometimes this deck has so much mana its absurd. Sometimes after you've played IT/DI and cracked all your LEDs, you have as much as 7 to 15 mana floating. Entomb in particular was a more recent addition to this list (I started with Brainstorms and Sea/Trop). I like Entomb because it can be protection, or if you don't have a dude to sac, you can throw a PIF in your yard, just in case they have a counter you don't expect. The deck has so much mana even if they counter your all in attempt that you can go off again next turn from the yard with PIF. This is because Explorers leave you with perpetual resources after you crack them, unlike other acceleration where its a one time deal.



I think this new storm variant could potentially dislodge RUG from its Papal Legacy throne. Explorer is just retarded against RUG, and their soft permission is rather hilarious when you look at how easily this deck can out distance soft permission. I had one game where I just played through 4 Spell Pierce, Daze, Flusterstorm, in game one. Just to compare to other storm variants (though I was going to do all this in an article at some point in the near future):

ANT - less explosive, more cantrips, less stable mana base, more disruption but weaker disruption, weaker rituals
TES - less explosive, more cantrips, less stable mana base, more and stronger disruption (pre-board), far weaker rituals

In particular, ANT plays Crit, which is extremely vulnerable to Daze, and frankly, the card you want to cut from that list if you could. Also, both lists play Chrome Mox, which is card disadvantage. I've dropped it since the deck has so much mana that you rarely AdN without mana floating. Also, Therapy/Probe is just a pathetic version of Therapy/Flashback. This deck abuses Therapy to the fullest of its potential, and then some thanks to Entomb. Entomb functions as pseudo protection a lot of the time. TES, on the other hand, plays Silence/Chant effects. These are awesome, but once VANT hits post-board, it can play Autumn's Veil, which is better in this deck. Why? Because all its rituals are instants, unlike in TES. This means VE against control allows you multiple land drops such that when you go off, you can respond to their soft permission with Veil, something that TES cannot do with Chant/Silence. TES is probably still faster than this deck overall, but cards like Culling the Weak produce explosive plays where TES would be waiting for a couple turns to get enough acceleration to get there. Also in terms of explosiveness, the number of cards that interact with LED mean that your topdeck mode is quite powerful. When I was playing Brainstorm, the deck also had a stronger Brainstorm than both TES and ANT, ANT typically only playing 16 shuffle effects with TES's 11, and VANT's 18. Now its at 23, no cantrips, but I am still playing around with the list.

I hope to gather some interest in this list that way we can get more players testing variations. I already have 5 or 6 other people testing their own variations, and a couple of people have liked the list so much they are on their way to completing their list.

[Manroe]

SI hasn't really 'fallen off the wagon' cause there never really was a wagon for this deck. There's a few people camping in the mountains and thats about it.

MTGS has a far more active forum if you're interested in constant discussion, sharing results, etc. SI players are still performing at locals, and within the last year we had one player place 26th in an SCG, and the year before that, actually, the exact same place, with a different player. So with a good pilot, the deck is still able to do quite well at large tournaments.

A lot of players are playing RSI which is the robot heavy list that plays Mox Opal, Gitaxian Probe, and Cabal Therapy. It can lead to some incredibly powerful plays, and players of this type have been developing their own sideboards to good effect, things like Lotus Bloom and Tezzeret transformations.

I and some other players still player PSI (the Pact list), which plays 0 protection, but is far more flexible than the other lists because the Pacts can transform into either a creature or a mana source.

Belcher is a largely turn 3 combo deck. 4/11 win conditions are Empty the Warrens (on rare occasions Diminishing Returns and/or Tendrils). So after you hit 14 tokens turn 1, the fastest you can win is turn 3. PSI by comparison, is a turn 1 deck, more in line with the speed of decks like Oops All the Spells (or whatever its called). The difference is this deck still holds the title of best mulligans in all of Legacy magic because you can go off with fewer resources than any other combo deck, thanks to redundancy. Petal, Drit, D4, is all you really need. Yes D4s are risky, but that comes with the territory. The PSI lists fizzle less because you don't draw into multiple protection and tallmen when you really want business and acceleration. For this reason I've stuck with PSI. Also, still comparing to Belcher, PSI actually has a sideboard plan. If you notice, the most recent lists played by Ben Perry and others have ported sideboard tech from PSI such as Carpet of Flowers. Carpet is even more abusable post-board thanks to a heavy business count. Against a slower control player like Miracles or BUG, 3 Islands means free business for the PSI. Then, you just lay business spells down until they run out of permission, and then you kill them. It works extremely well actually, and is far more fun to play for both players than the typically combo matchup where one player bends down, and the other player does nasty things. Instead, its largely, how do you out play them, surprise pay for Daze and make them waste 2 counters on something. Also, you can lay down double or triple threats on turn 1 thanks to boarding in a bunch of 1cc bombs. The deck can play a man plan as well if you want to surprise your local opponents with something they aren't prepared for.

ANT and TES are played more because they are consistent, and easy to play. PSI is significantly faster, and usually you are favored in the combo mirror because they cannot match your speed. I've won most of my combo mirrors against other storm decks. PSI, though is a combo for the dedicated combo player who enjoys playing something both difficult and rewarding. The sideboard is incredibly fun to play; in fact, I've beaten control players who claim to have had 'the best game of magic in a long time' playing against it, so you won't look like a dick at your local metagame like you would if you were playing Belcher.

Then again, I've been developing a new list that I've shared with the MTGS and Stormboard SI-teams, and its developing quite well actually. We have a BGur list that plays Brainstorm, a BGR list that plays Entomb and Burning Wish, and a BGr list that plays Entomb. So far the list is about as fast as ANT. We have a small amount of data (70 goldfish games recorded), leading us to a 2.55 (20 games), 2.9 (20 games), 2.8 (20 games), and 2.5 (10 games) turn kill ratio. So its about the speed of ANT or TES, but it plays better cards in some cases, and its far better against control than these other storm combo decks by my assessment. I'll get into these things later though, here is the list:

- VANT w/ Entomb -
Business -
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Entomb
3 Diabolic Intent
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

Protection/Utility -
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Narcomoeba

Mana -
1 Eternal Witness
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Young Wolf
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Land -
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor

We're still developing a sideboard. Direlemming is playing a BW variant, also playing Entomb. A few other players think we should go back to playing Brainstorm. Lately I've been pondering a Doomsday variant with Probe/Brainstorm/Top. Anyway, I'll explain the card choices. It shares like 37 cards or something with PSI so it was technically PSI for a long time. I started calling it Veteran ANT due to Veteran Explorer.

Business:
Infernal Tutor - Excellent tutor. Storm combo players are quite familiar with this one.
Entomb - Incredibly powerful. This card can be a creature if you need one for a sac effect, it can find business via PIF, or protection via Therapy.
Diabolic Intent - Much like IT, only its better than IT. Also, its better than Burning Wish because BW can't find LED, and thats huge if you have IT/BW in hand.
Ad Nauseam - Powerful engine.
Past in Flames - Your line of play if you have an Entomb in hand, or if you've lost too much life to go for Ad Nauseam.
Tendrils of Agony - Your kill.

Protection/Utility:
Cabal Therapy - ANT/TES do not utilize this card to its potential. Its basically a bad protection spell in other combo decks. In this one, you can flashback it frequently, or find it with Entomb for tricks.
Narcomoeba - Tricks with Entomb

Mana:
Eternal Witness - Huge card. If you have 9 mana in hand and your only business is Entomb and Pact, you can still win. You Entomb for Ad Nauseam, then you Pact, crack a LED for GGG, then Ewit for AdN, then cast AdN with the rest of your mana.
Elvish Spirit Guide - Anti-Daze tech, and helps you cast your Explorers and other green 1cc stuff on turn 1.
Summoner's Pact - Strongest card in the deck. It can turn into mana, a creature, or a business spell (Ewit). I'll talk about the drawback later.
Veteran Explorer - Another of the strongest cards in the deck. It's pseudo-ritual acceleration in that it nets you B, but you get to keep the lands. Its great for setting up.
Young Wolf - Sometimes you want to Pact for this when you have double Culling or some kind of double sac cost that you could not pay for if you grabbed Explorer.
Dark Ritual - Acceleration
Culling the Weak - More explosive acceleration than the other combo decks have access to. This is one of the cards that lets you frequently make huge-mana plays.
Lion's Eye Diamond - Combos with Pact, Entomb, DI, IT, and PIF. In other words, more cards than in any other storm combo variant.

Lands
Swamp - I like playing 4 but we can probably cut one for a basic Forest.
Verdant Catacombs - Can find a B/G source, or a Dryad Arbor if you need it for a sac effect.
Bayou - Your B/G mana sources.
Mountain - Sometimes you want to grab this when you are executing a PIF line of play. You grab it with Veteran Explorer.
Dryad Arbor - You can grab this with Catacombs or Pact.


As I've already mentioned, this deck wins somewhere between turn 2 and turn 3 on avg. Often you can set up protection as well, and many of those times you are also able to flashback therapy. The deck has natural protection from soft permission because the rituals are so explosive and the deck plays a very stable mana base thanks to Explorer. Also, Veteran Explorer is a psuedo-ritual acceleration that cannot be Spell Pierced or Flusterstormed. This is huge because it limits players to Daze, Stifle, and Force. The business of the deck (could include Pact) is so amorphous that you can usually manipulate your hand based on what you are playing to produce a win. I've talked about this deck ad nauseam on MTGS in the SI thread if anyone wants to read more (and see the results the few of us have in our limited testing).

The coolest thing you can do with this deck is probably the Eternal Witness line of play. You have no idea how satisfying it is to win with just Pact/Entomb in hand. Also, due to lines of play like this, you can produce a win by using spare DI's or ITs to look for protection or extra mana if you are taking your time in going off. Sometimes this deck has so much mana its absurd. Sometimes after you've played IT/DI and cracked all your LEDs, you have as much as 7 to 15 mana floating. Entomb in particular was a more recent addition to this list (I started with Brainstorms and Sea/Trop). I like Entomb because it can be protection, or if you don't have a dude to sac, you can throw a PIF in your yard, just in case they have a counter you don't expect. The deck has so much mana even if they counter your all in attempt that you can go off again next turn from the yard with PIF. This is because Explorers leave you with perpetual resources after you crack them, unlike other acceleration where its a one time deal.



I think this new storm variant could potentially dislodge RUG from its Papal Legacy throne. Explorer is just retarded against RUG, and their soft permission is rather hilarious when you look at how easily this deck can out distance soft permission. I had one game where I just played through 4 Spell Pierce, Daze, Flusterstorm, in game one. Just to compare to other storm variants (though I was going to do all this in an article at some point in the near future):

ANT - less explosive, more cantrips, less stable mana base, more disruption but weaker disruption, weaker rituals
TES - less explosive, more cantrips, less stable mana base, more and stronger disruption (pre-board), far weaker rituals

In particular, ANT plays Crit, which is extremely vulnerable to Daze, and frankly, the card you want to cut from that list if you could. Also, both lists play Chrome Mox, which is card disadvantage. I've dropped it since the deck has so much mana that you rarely AdN without mana floating. Also, Therapy/Probe is just a pathetic version of Therapy/Flashback. This deck abuses Therapy to the fullest of its potential, and then some thanks to Entomb. Entomb functions as pseudo protection a lot of the time. TES, on the other hand, plays Silence/Chant effects. These are awesome, but once VANT hits post-board, it can play Autumn's Veil, which is better in this deck. Why? Because all its rituals are instants, unlike in TES. This means VE against control allows you multiple land drops such that when you go off, you can respond to their soft permission with Veil, something that TES cannot do with Chant/Silence. TES is probably still faster than this deck overall, but cards like Culling the Weak produce explosive plays where TES would be waiting for a couple turns to get enough acceleration to get there. Also in terms of explosiveness, the number of cards that interact with LED mean that your topdeck mode is quite powerful. When I was playing Brainstorm, the deck also had a stronger Brainstorm than both TES and ANT, ANT typically only playing 16 shuffle effects with TES's 11, and VANT's 18. Now its at 23, no cantrips, but I am still playing around with the list.

I hope to gather some interest in this list that way we can get more players testing variations. I already have 5 or 6 other people testing their own variations, and a couple of people have liked the list so much they are on their way to completing their list.

Vacrix, first off your analysis is great. I can tell you are very passionate about the deck, which is very refreshing. The new list that you posted intrigues me. I would like to make and test it. I am always one to play something unique and my meta has almost no control players. Sounds fun to me.

[kusumoto]

Really interesting list Vacrix. It's kind of amazing to see what appears to be an actual fresh take on storm.

It's very different from SI though. Why not start a new thread to get some interest going? I'm betting not a lot of people that might be interested even enter this thread and it's certainly different enough to warrant a new one.

[Vacrix]

Indeed, it is a fresh take on storm. A couple people on MTGS are already playing VANT with success. However, I want to get a little bit more information on the deck before I write a primer to officially present it to the community as something new. I have one tournament report so far from MTGS, and he beat 2 decks playing FoW to top4 at his local. Not bad, but I'd like to have a couple reports first. If anyone wants to read more about this deck, we've discussed it thoroughly on MTGS.

So far the deck appears to win quickly on turns 2 or 3 if you push the deck to race your opponent. If you take your time, it goes off later but slow plays better than other storm combo decks because this one can flashback Therapy, sac Explorers to build up enough mana to dodge soft permission, and the deck plays 15 tutors which allows the pilot to move resources around to solve different situations. Its more like Doomsday than ANT actually and the fast mana is even more flexible than in PSI because the deck can play Explorer instead of Chrome Mox. It has an incredible amount of resilience because of the high business density, much like the inevitability of ANT, but stacking basics with Explorer makes it more inevitable (and makes paying for Pact triggers easier). A Burning Wish version might be more appropriate but I'm becoming less and less fond of Empty the Warrens since everyone is answering it so effectively these days. Belcher wins some and loses some, but we don't want to lose to the same thing that beats Belcher. I think PIF is a much more preferable line of play. With access to Entomb, it opens up the possibility of creative post-board transformations. Hitting 8-10 mana for Griz isn't incredibly hard if we know we are trying to crack a Pernicious Deed. Then we can also play post-board reanimation as well. This would be a clever way to diversify how storm combo fights through hate because it slow plays into Deed extremely well thanks to Explorer. You can also Deed and then set up a PIF/Tendrils line of play. There are other board transformation I've been experimenting with that are also functioning within the current deck structure quite well, variations of Phyrexian Obliterator, Desecration Demon, and Carpet/protection plans.


EDIT:
Another good way too look at things in terms of virtual copies.

VANT -
18 virtual business - (4 IT, 4 Entomb, 3 DI, 1 AdN, 1 Tendrils, 1 PIF, 4 Pact)
20 virtual acceleration - (4 Drit, 4 Culling, 4 LED, 4 Veteran Explorer, 4 Pact)
8 virtual protection - (4 Therapy, 4 Entomb)
18 virtual creatures - (4 Veteran Explorer, 1 Young Wolf, 4 Pact, 4 Verdant Catacombs, 4 Entomb, 1 Dryad Arbor) (19 if you count wolf as 2 creatures, and 20 if you count hardcasting Narcomoeba)
11 land - (Veteran Explorers tend to mean you don't need to draw lands or cantrip into land drops as often. instead you take your time and crack the explorer somehow)



By comparison to ANT and TES, they play more cantrips while this deck plays tutors to create flexibility in the hand rather than relying on a good topdeck, shuffling, and multiple cantrips. In this case, you are very vulnerable to Pyroblast on cantrips early on against decks like RUG. By comparison, these decks are flexible within 3 cards of their topdeck, which they constantly shuffle. However, cards like Entomb and Summoner's Pact require additional deck space for flexibility, but through redundancy manages an effective system. Also, the ability of a player to hide his strategy as a Nic fit player is incredibly useful for determining how to play your hand. Sometimes, you will start by dropping lands, maybe an Explorer or something. Then your opponent drops Deathrite shaman. Initially, you were thinking about going for PiF. Well, you can now decide how to use Entomb. Entombing for Narcomoeba will really put them on edge because then they will expect some graveyard based strategy. This is the kind of mind numbing confusion this deck can unleash because the cards you are playing are so foreign to storm combo. I think people playing storm like Grinding Station, DDFT, and SI will really get turned on to this version of storm combo. Hopefully soon because this is a storm combo variant that will make fighting storm combo much more difficult.

[GoldenCid]

Sorry for my ignorance but what is QSI?

[ntropy]

Sorry for my ignorance but what is QSI?

If I recall correctly, it's the version of SI that splashes blue for cantrips to sculp a hand that can beat the hate. I think it runs Meditate as an additional D4. There is likely something about it in the OP/Primer.

[GoldenCid]

If I recall correctly, it's the version of SI that splashes blue for cantrips to sculp a hand that can beat the hate. I think it runs Meditate as an additional D4. There is likely something about it in the OP/Primer.

Thank you for. Clarification. Does it provide any advantage over traditional psi?

And which is the trick behind lotus bloom?

[Final Fortune]

@Vacrix

I loaded up the Veteran Explorer list and think it's rather interesting, but I have a lot of criticisms as well.

1) You should be using an Empty the Warrens in the MD as a second win/kill condition, answers for Empty the Warrens only exists post-board.
2) I rarely find myself wanting to fetch for a mountain, Entomb for a Narcomeba or Pact for a Young Wolf, I think you've gotten carred too far away with "cute" interactions and found yourself in the land of awful oppening hands.
3) Three Elvish Spirit Guide in a deck with Ad Nauseam is rather "ballsy"
4) Tinder Wall and Deathrite Shaman would make for rather useful draws and Pact targets for straightening out mana for Past in Flames or Chrome Mox if you choose to play any.
5) You're already playing Cabal Therapy, Gitaxian Probe should be right around the corner.
6) Grim Tutor or Death Wish seem like pretty viable business spells as well as a second Ad Nauseam.

Have you tried cutting the deck down to just Veteran Explorer and Diabolic Intent instead of getting "fancy" with Entomb?

[GoldenCid]

Well, finally i got my third Cruel Bargain and while wait for the fourth wich draw spell do you recomend me to run instead?

Meditate

or

Slithermuse?

Moreover i share my actual list for help (insults are welcomed as well :P)

4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Tendrils of Agony
2 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Culling the Weak
1 Wild Cantor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Odious Trow
1 Empty the Warrens

Respect the side....im not sure what can i run. Im intrigued for lotus Bloom versión but maybe im so newbie for that.

Thx a lot


GC

[Namida]

Is there a reason you're playing Deathrite Shaman and Odious Trow? I think you should be playing two copies of Deathrite Shaman if you're comfortable playing the Trow as a dedicated Pact target with limited utility. I've never in my life blocked with a Trow and regenerated it, so I doubt that's why he's still got a place in your deck.

I really don't like Empty the Warrens in a deck playing Summoner's Pact, but it might be necessary/not as bad as I think it is.

I'd play Slithermuse over Meditate, if the choice is between those two. Blue mana doesn't come easily in this deck, so if I'm going to put extra resources into casting a blue spell, I would want it to be better than my regular D4s.

[GoldenCid]

Is there a reason you're playing Deathrite Shaman and Odious Trow? I think you should be playing two copies of Deathrite Shaman if you're comfortable playing the Trow as a dedicated Pact target with limited utility. I've never in my life blocked with a Trow and regenerated it, so I doubt that's why he's still got a place in your deck.

I really don't like Empty the Warrens in a deck playing Summoner's Pact, but it might be necessary/not as bad as I think it is.

I'd play Slithermuse over Meditate, if the choice is between those two. Blue mana doesn't come easily in this deck, so if I'm going to put extra resources into casting a blue spell, I would want it to be better than my regular D4s.

I always liked the splitted cards in my decks. You are right, activating shaman is much more better than tow. Anyway it is unprobable to. Activate one or other during a game.

Andar regarding to the blue spell i agree with you.

[GoldenCid]

Sorry for double posting...i had a question..let's see if you can help me: How many of you crack led in response to D4 spell having in hand one or more of the following cards:

Pact
IT
Culling the weak

?

THX!!!

[rhinoflipper]

Sorry for double posting...i had a question..let's see if you can help me: How many of you crack led in response to D4 spell having in hand one or more of the following cards:

Pact
IT
Culling the weak

?

THX!!!

Cracking LED in response to a D4 has always been hit or miss for me, but I don't know what the part about having stuff in hand matters, you're about to discard it anyways...

[Final Fortune]

So I think I've broken the format, I'm playing Green Sun's Zenith in Storm ...

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Meek
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

I'm not even sure Summoner's Pact is worth running in addition to Green Sun's Zenith but this is the most hilarious version of Storm I have ever been able to play seriously. You start off by playing that Veteran Explorer Green Sun's Zenith control deck in order to establish your manabase, and just when they think you're going to play a Pernicious Deed ... you turn their lights the fuck out. I was nearly pissing myself in laughter on MTGs the whole day.

I think the Chrome Mox may be better off as a second Xantid Swarm, but usually people are so confused by the deck it doesn't matter much.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So I think I've broken the format, I'm playing Green Sun's Zenith in Storm ...

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Meek
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

I'm not even sure Summoner's Pact is worth running in addition to Green Sun's Zenith but this is the most hilarious version of Storm I have ever been able to play seriously. You start off by playing that Veteran Explorer Green Sun's Zenith control deck in order to establish your manabase, and just when they think you're going to play a Pernicious Deed ... you turn their lights the fuck out. I was nearly pissing myself in laughter on MTGs the whole day.

I think the Chrome Mox may be better off as a second Xantid Swarm, but usually people are so confused by the deck it doesn't matter much.

Do you have any streams? I'd very much like to see this in action.

Also, it's Culling the Weak, not meek...

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[trollking21]

So I think I've broken the format, I'm playing Green Sun's Zenith in Storm ...

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Meek
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

I'm not even sure Summoner's Pact is worth running in addition to Green Sun's Zenith but this is the most hilarious version of Storm I have ever been able to play seriously. You start off by playing that Veteran Explorer Green Sun's Zenith control deck in order to establish your manabase, and just when they think you're going to play a Pernicious Deed ... you turn their lights the fuck out. I was nearly pissing myself in laughter on MTGs the whole day.

I think the Chrome Mox may be better off as a second Xantid Swarm, but usually people are so confused by the deck it doesn't matter much.

Doesn't as nasuem just kill you in this deck? You have, 1 remaining as nas 1 tendrils 1 empty 1 elvish spirit guide, and 8 two mana spells. This looks like you just have really high odds of dying when you cast it.

[Final Fortune]

Doesn't as nasuem just kill you in this deck? You have, 1 remaining as nas 1 tendrils 1 empty 1 elvish spirit guide, and 8 two mana spells. This looks like you just have really high odds of dying when you cast it.

All Storm decks have 8 two mana spells in them, 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 Cabal Ritual or 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 Burning Wish along with 4 Gitaxian Probe as either 2 points of damage before Ad Nauseam, 3 points of damage after Ad Nauseam or 1 point of damage and a dead card after Ad Nauseam and ANT often has 2 Grim Tutor or 2 Burning Wish in addition to that, so that's a completely irrelevant observation. Compared to the other Storm decks I have 1 more Ad Nauseam and a single Elvish Spirit Guide that has 4 Summoner's Pact to remove it from the deck before you Ad Nauseam. Yousimply need threat density, if you find yourself dying to your own Ad Nauseams then I guess -1 Ad Nauseam, +1 Grim Tutor or Deathwish could work - but open handing Ad Nauseam in a deck that's designed to have 5 mana on turn 2 via Bayou -> Green Sun's Zenith -> Dryad Arbor and then Culling the Weak on the following turn is just absolutely worth having 2 Ad Nauseam in your deck.

If you guys want to try it out, I think you can cut Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy in order to play 3 more Xantid Swarms and Brainstorm with minor changes to the manabase for the blue card and just rely on Green Sun's Zenith, Summoner's Pact, fetchlands and Xantid Swarms as your fuel for the deck. Screw their Swords to Plowshares, Xantid Swarm still trumps Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm and Spell Snare, requires the opponent to Force of Will it and keeps Swords to Plowshares in their deck over any other alternatives. It's a minor annoyance, but considering the synergy the card has with your tutors and accerlation it's an easy 4x if you want it to be.

I'll post some youtube videos once I've got the list settled, I'm really torn on a couple of the card choices for "Zenith Storm" like whether or not I want to splash for blue and Brainstorm and cut the Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy package or keep basics in the deck and cut the Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy package for Gitaxian Probe or Sensei's Divining Top. SBing in the deck is really tricky, I tend to go -3 Veteran Explorer for +3 Xantid Swarm vs aggro-control and just rely on all of my tutoring power for the single Veteran Explorer and vs discard I'm doing pretty well by SBing out Xantid Swarm and 3 Veteran Explorer for 4 Sensei's Divining Top to just dig, dig, dig. I've also tried some bizzare shit, like playing a MD Living Wish to have a tutor for Xantid Swarm, Veteran Explorer and Phyrexian Tower and you can even sort of use it as business with Slithermuse.

I've really got to screen shot some of my opponent's reactions tho' when they figure out I'm not playing Nic Fit by me raping them in their dirty mouths with my Tendrils. The rogue value of this deck is amazing because it actually doesn't suck.

I swear it's the most fun I've had in Legacy in awhile.

[trollking21]

All Storm decks have 8 two mana spells in them, 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 Cabal Ritual or 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 Burning Wish along with 4 Gitaxian Probe as either 2 points of damage before Ad Nauseam, 3 points of damage after Ad Nauseam or 1 point of damage and a dead card after Ad Nauseam and ANT often has 2 Grim Tutor or 2 Burning Wish in addition to that, so that's a completely irrelevant observation. Compared to the other Storm decks I have 1 more Ad Nauseam and a single Elvish Spirit Guide that has 4 Summoner's Pact to remove it from the deck before you Ad Nauseam. Yousimply need threat density, if you find yourself dying to your own Ad Nauseams then I guess -1 Ad Nauseam, +1 Grim Tutor or Deathwish could work - but open handing Ad Nauseam in a deck that's designed to have 5 mana on turn 2 via Bayou -> Green Sun's Zenith -> Dryad Arbor and then Culling the Weak on the following turn is just absolutely worth having 2 Ad Nauseam in your deck.

I'll post some youtube videos once I've got the list settled, .

I was just curious i've played T.E.S. and while we have 8 cmc 2 spells after an ad nas we have 0 five cost and 1 four cost so that is a noticeable difference as well as ad nas in A.N.T is a back up plan. If you say they don't kill you i'll believe you. It'll be intresting to see the videos when they go up

[Final Fortune]

Came up with another possible innovation for the deck list, added a Dosan the Falling Leaf and now the deck can use either Summoner's Pact or Green Sun's Zenith as, albeit very expensive, disruption cards on the turn you're trying to go off instead of on the following turn.

So far the MD is performing really well and I think it's a strict improvement over Entomb because that card just sucked vs Deathrite Shaman. The deck is about as fast as ANT on average tho' it's a bit inconsistent without the 12 to 16 cantrips. I think taking a long hard look at Sensei's Divining Top is in order.

[.Ix]

How are the Diabolic Intents in this deck? I'm asking because they are really hard to find and I'm wondering if there's any possible replacement for them.

[Final Fortune]

How are the Diabolic Intents in this deck? I'm asking because they are really hard to find and I'm wondering if there's any possible replacement for them.

Awesome and absolutely necessary.

[Vacrix]

So I think I've broken the format, I'm playing Green Sun's Zenith in Storm ...

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

I'm not even sure Summoner's Pact is worth running in addition to Green Sun's Zenith but this is the most hilarious version of Storm I have ever been able to play seriously. You start off by playing that Veteran Explorer Green Sun's Zenith control deck in order to establish your manabase, and just when they think you're going to play a Pernicious Deed ... you turn their lights the fuck out. I was nearly pissing myself in laughter on MTGs the whole day.

I think the Chrome Mox may be better off as a second Xantid Swarm, but usually people are so confused by the deck it doesn't matter much.
I thought about GSZ but dropped the idea because Entomb was more flexible but I'd encourage you to try it if you like how it plays.

I'd experiment with cutting Explorers if you are going heavy on GSZ, cutting GSZ/Pacts and working out splits.. and it looks like you'll be going off turn 3/4/5 more often than with the Entomb list's at turn 2/3/4. I think playing a slower storm variant has its advantages; it could well be the answer to a control metagame and would do well if that metagame counterbalances the control decks with Nic fit-and/or GB mid-rangey players. This would be especially the case once you hit post-board for all sorts of transformations. If I were you though, I'd find a way to abuse GSZ with LED or else you haven't completely broken the card into the deck. Being able to play 1G for explorer means you are color fixing and you get long term resources if you are slow rolling a control deck (GREAT in RUG heavy metas).. but against a deck playing basics, you lose a lot of power in not playing Entomb because Entomb is also quite flexible at Instant for B.. and Entomb works with LED in a lot of situations. Entomb can also become a sacrifice outlet and protection when you find Therapy to crack an Explorer for a power play on turn 1 or 2. Its worth noting that Entomb is a generic creature as Narcomoeba for a single black while GSZ can find Arbor for a single green.. but Narco takes up another slot so perhaps GSZ probably wins that niche. I still think the protection/sac play is one of the main reasons you play Entomb.. then again.. its also fantastic at finding Tendrils when you are holding PIF or finding PIF when you are holding Tendrils. GSZ has the disadvantage of not being business; its totally a set up piece. Entomb, though, functions as protection/creature/business/acceleration.. depending on how it works within your hand. Entomb also has the advantage of being an instant, meaning that instant speed Narco + Culling + B + AdN can randomly win games when you happen to be holding an AdN. In particular, I like the Entomb --> AdN + Pact --> Ewit line of play at 8 mana. It happens now and again, and no storm line of play feels better than reanimating your storm engine with spare, (and generally) non-business cards like Pact and Entomb.

Granted, GSZ can convert the deck into something nasty if you were to play a transformational sideboard. Tomb of Urami looks rather weak as a man plan when you look at cards like the green titan + GSZ; much better man plan. Same goes for the black titan since you still have shit tons of black mana. This is the reason I'd be sold on GSZ, is because it will give you an incredibly game plan against control decks post-board.

Anyone interested in working on the GSZ list I would recommend trying to break it with LED. Also, I talk extensively about the Entomb list on the previous page if anyone is interested.. and here is a Doomsday list that functions on a similar core structure, trying to abuse VE, Culling, LED, Drit, Therapy, Pact in particular. This list plays well, and its worth noting to any heathens that there were MULTIPLE SPANISH INQUISITIONS.. like historically speaking, and we are using a lot of the same cards anyway, and its still storm combo.. so we have a new direction, and we have a bunch of speedy old lists. Basically, let the naysayers come willingly. The pyre is ready!

If we start developing these more, I'll update the primer with new lists, history, core-structure, results (would be nice) etc. There are a bunch of players on MTGS who have switched from the old-SI lists to these VANT (VASI), or VED (VDSI). Not sure what to do about these acronyms but we can figure it out. Ultimately, I think that these decks ought to be discussed here since SI players are ultimately switching from old lists to these lists. I've gotten a shit ton of private messages on MTGS and The Source about these builds as well so I have a feeling that a lot of players have already picked them up and they have their own builds because they know that fundamentally, the core deck structure of VE, Culling, Therapy, Pact, Drit, LED, IT, is incredibly powerful.

- VE Doomsday -
Pact-package - 13
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Wild Dogs
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wolfbriar Elemental

Acceleration - 13
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
3 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

Land - 13
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Cantrip/Protection - 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gitaxian Probe

Business - 9
1 Burning Wish
1 Idea's Unbound
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Doomsday
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

61 cards

This thread has more info about VED-SI
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27208-Veteran-Explorer-Doomsday#post773922

Wolfbriar Elemental in particular is a lot of fun with Pact, turning it into business and allowing for some explosive turn 2 plays when you aren't really supposed to have business in hand.

Its worth noting that my time with VASI evolved into a Doomsday list.. but I was going to school so I didn't really have enough time to develop it fully. Initially, I was thinking I should develop it privately because the list was so good, but I decided to bring it to the community hoping it would blossum into something sick.. but I guess other people didn't put enough time into it either because it actually is difficult to play. It requires a bit of practice to properly judge how to play VASI, specifically when you have so many moving parts. Then again, it got easier to play after a while because cards like Pact and Entomb are so flexible.. Doomsday lists were even more fun to play because they were more difficult puzzles and it was fun playing Brainstorm and Top with the VESI core.

EDIT:

Do you have any streams? I'd very much like to see this in action.
I would love to see this as well, and totally will do this once I find out where I"m going to be living in the next few weeks, and if there is a store in my vicinity. I plan on converting to VASI, the Entomb list quite soon and putting up some local results as I prepare for a 50+ event.

[Final Fortune]

Entomb is an ok plan but I didn't like the excessive amount of dead cards in the deck and the interaction with Deathrite Shaman, what sold me on Green Sun's Zenith is that it was acceleration and disruption all in one where entomb was business and disruption all in one, the sacrifice cards are more abundant than the cards to be sacrificed so it made a lot of sense to me to just build on Veteran Explorer after Veteran Explorer for a tremendous manabase and then just kill with Ad Nauseam.

I'd love to be able to find a threat to go along with Green Sun's Zenith and Summoner's Pact but I just haven't found anything convincing.

Just Green Sun's Zenith, Summoner's Pact and Xantid Swarm fueling Culling the Weak and Diabolic Intent looks viable, all the cheats for Dryad Arbor are really good to build around.

[Vacrix]

Entomb is an ok plan but I didn't like the excessive amount of dead cards in the deck and the interaction with Deathrite Shaman, what sold me on Green Sun's Zenith is that it was acceleration and disruption all in one where entomb was business and disruption all in one, the sacrifice cards are more abundant than the cards to be sacrificed so it made a lot of sense to me to just build on Veteran Explorer after Veteran Explorer for a tremendous manabase and then just kill with Ad Nauseam.

I'd love to be able to find a threat to go along with Green Sun's Zenith and Summoner's Pact but I just haven't found anything convincing.

Just Green Sun's Zenith, Summoner's Pact and Xantid Swarm fueling Culling the Weak and Diabolic Intent looks viable, all the cheats for Dryad Arbor are really good to build around.
Thats my point.. Entomb is not only functionable within your hand, its makes dead hands work. Its the piece that completes most hands and allows you to keep 7 cards almost all the time. For example, if you keep 7 cards with 2 disruption spells and a Pact.. all you need to draw is business. But if you also have a Pact and you draw Entomb, and its like turn 3.. you can Pact for Ewit and Entomb for AdN. Then having 8 mana on turn 3 is that much more relevant as you set up with multiple Therapies. Another example would be when you have Pact and Entomb and Culling. Pacting for Young Wolf allows you much more flexibility in that you get BBBB and a protection spell in the mix, because they rarely counter Pact, and if they do, you can adjust with Entomb for Narco and then Culling anyway. GSZ doesn't allow for this flexibility. Thats what I mean by Entomb being an accelerant. Its more flexible than GSZ because its a sac outlet. The deck never has enough sac outlets because it doesn't matter how many are in the deck; it matters how many you have in your hand, and how many you want. If your opponent nails all your creatures with STPs and Snapcasters, your Entomb becomes more important than a GSZ for Xantid Swarm because it can find business like PIF. I'd say the main strength of GSZ is in the post-board and I'd actually say if you play with it enough at your locals, you'll probably wind up moving it to the sideboard because its too slow in the maindeck, and its not flexible like Entomb is. Brainstorm is also a good replacement for Entomb/GSZ. I was playing Brainstorm before Entomb.. and then Entomb made the deck faster and I didn't have to splash a color.. though I'd love to cut some cards to Brainstorm and Entomb in the same list.. that would be dirty.


Summoner's Pact is awesome with Wolfbriar Elemental because it allows Pact + LED to be psuedo-EtW in green.. on turn 2 or if you get an Explorer early with a tight opening hand. As I said before, I gave up on GSZ overbecause I couldn't turn it into business, and it was 1G for 2 lands so it was only set up instead of acceleration. I want to reiterate that Entomb is simply functionable within the hand.. but as protection, business, and acceleration. Its acceleration as well because it finds a sac-outlet; GSZ finds a creature. Also, I don't like being dependent on DI's as my only sac outlet, because then STP or a discard spell is that much more distruptive. If you keep more 7 card hands and just play them out you'll notice that 7 card hands produce a turn 3/4. I recall playing 20 hands as results posted somewhere playing 7 card hands, keeping everything.. and my avg. turn kill was like 3.5 or something (I was only playing 1 AdN). It has an incredible 7 card hand for a combo deck, and I believe that was because of Entomb. Also Entomb is awesome as a back up plan if you hold onto it and DI for AdN. If they counter the DI or AdN, then you still have Entomb as business. GSZ does not produce these lines of play where against heavy countermagic suites you will want this option.

[Raystar]

So I think I've broken the format, I'm playing Green Sun's Zenith in Storm ...

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Meek
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

I'm not even sure Summoner's Pact is worth running in addition to Green Sun's Zenith but this is the most hilarious version of Storm I have ever been able to play seriously. You start off by playing that Veteran Explorer Green Sun's Zenith control deck in order to establish your manabase, and just when they think you're going to play a Pernicious Deed ... you turn their lights the fuck out. I was nearly pissing myself in laughter on MTGs the whole day.

I think the Chrome Mox may be better off as a second Xantid Swarm, but usually people are so confused by the deck it doesn't matter much.

1) You are crazy :)
2) You are a genius
3) I love you :) (in a platonic way, of course)

I tested your list yesterday night and made the following changes:

-1 AdN
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Summoner's Pact
-1 GSZ
-1 Empty the Warrens

+3 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Duress
+1 Past in Flames

I have to say the the deck is a blast, I didn't take record of the actual statistics but it seemed pretty consistent at comboing off turn 3 and very, very resilient to AdN fizzles

[Final Fortune]

You can cut the 2nd Ad Nauseam but you can't cut the Empty the Warrens, that card wins so many games with Cabal Therapy vs Tempo regardless of the disynergy with Summoner's Pact that I think you have to play with it.

Duress is kind of pointless, you have 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Green Sun's Zenith and 1 Xantid Swarm already; the cards I've wanted to cut the most are the second Ad Nauseam, the Chrome Mox and the Deathrite Shaman just because I always seem to be able to cast a Veteran Explorer anyway.

I have Past in Flames and Ill Gotten Gains in the SB along with 3 more Xantid Swarms, I think it's better to MD Empty the Warrens than Past in Flames because if it gets them to SB in Golgari Charm or Pyroclasm then you get to make the swap to Past in Flames and suddenly they're left holding dead cards where MD Past in Flames doesn't really affect their SBing plans at all.

Sensei's Top is definitely amazing tho', we have so many shuffle effects in the deck to get value from it and 3 seems like the right number.

@Vacrix

Entomb sounds amazing until you play against Deathrite Shaman, then the card just falls apart in my experience. Let them STP all of my Dryad Arbors and Veteran Explorers, they'll pay for it with Xantid Swarm. Maybe you can play Entomb MD and then SB into Green Sun's Zenith vs Deathrite Shaman, but right now I'd just rather play the best MD vs Deathrite Shaman because it's a pretty ubiquitous part of the format - ignoring Deathrite Shaman feels about as disastrous for a combo deck as ignoring Force of Will.

@Raystar

Right now I'm just trying to get the number of Veteran Explorers and Sensei's Divining Tops right, 3 Top seems correct because like Chrome Mox you really don't want to open with more than 1.

[Vacrix]

Top and GSZ make sense together, especially since GSZ's recur and that makes for quite a few shuffle effects. I see what you mean about Entomb vs. Deathrite but Entomb is fantastic against everything else, and there have been a surge in UWR Tempo builds that beat BUG Tempo builds into the ground. Against the format, GSZ is probably better, but Entomb is going to be a solid choice in some metagames. For example, metagames heavy in RUG/UWR and Stoneblade/Miracles, Entomb looks pretty solid. In BUG/RUG metagames, I'd say GSZ/Top builds look incredible.. although I'd almost want like Spiritmonger or something huge you can look for with GSZ just incase you get into some shit with RUG and they race you early, and then you can't go for AdN. I've run into this situation before in testing with AdN, and EtW is a godsend pre-board. Then again, GSZ really does expand your options. I'd say exploiting it potentially with some kind of fat-dude, or at least LED will break open the GSZ build completely.

[Final Fortune]

If you don't see as many Deathrite Shamans as I do then play Entomb and SB Green Sun's Zenith, but either way you should be playing Green Sun's Zenith in your 75 because it gives your deck so much redundancy. I was surprised I could SB in destroy Artifact/Enchantment creatures and get around Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance completely for 1 card, not being able to tutor for business, and to be honest Entomb can't tutor for business without Summoner's Pact, seems to be less and less of a problem.

The deck feels faster than ANT because it durdles less, does anyone else find that to be the case?

[Vacrix]

Yes the unoptimized list is about turn 3 kill pretty consistently, and there are a whole bunch of excellent turn 2's. It sets up better than either deck thanks to cards like Explorer and Therapy. Therapy is stronger in this list than it is in either ANT or TES because you can flashback it. Also, the deck has an excellent 7 card hand, though I'd say as you get closer to 5 cards it gets weaker due to a lack of cantrips. SDT seems to be a good answer to that question; I enjoyed playing with 4 Brainstorm 4 Top in the DD version. Also, this deck rips RUG a new one since we can pretend to be Nic fit for far longer than storm should be able to, especially with your list with GSZ/Top. In general, all the extra mana and flashbackable protection means the Tempo matchup is particularly solid. I'd say against slower control decks like Stoneblade/Miracles that have stronger countermagic suites, we have the option to slow play. Veteran Explorer is a perpetual ritual against control since we get to hold onto the lands, and it can't countered by Spell Pierce and ESG/Pact is a nice option as a surprise anti-Daze line of play. Also, the fact that we fetch basics makes us even better against Tempo.



I would like to say that Entomb can be business without Pact. Entomb can find PIF, meaning its potentially a business spell at 6 mana. I like having that option in addition to it potentially being protection, accel, etc. I know its weak to Deathrite. Its incredibly fun to goldfish, however, and its nice getting a PIF in the yard EOT as setup for the following turn, or as a fail safe. Also, I liked the idea of finding Darkblast with Entomb as an anti-bear option that is rather compact in the post-board. Same goes for a Taiga + Ancient Grudge. GSZ does the same thing, but GSZ isn't too good if they land an early Gaddock Teeg. Entomb is also slightly better under Thalia since its a mana cheaper.

Post-board I found myself going for Pernicious Deed into PIF/Tendrils against the slower decks simply because they board in a shit ton of hate, and sometimes the compact hate strategies just don't cut it. I think that GSZ lists might be even better at this strategy.

[Final Fortune]

I'm probably missing something but how is Entomb into Past in Flames business? Once you cast Past in Flames the Entomb in your graveyard can tutor for Tendrils of Agony but the Tendrils of Agony wont have flashback? Every time the Entomb is business argument comes up, Summoner's Pact and Eternal Witness seem to be a part of that equation.

[Vacrix]

Sometimes you Therapy, see shit you'd rather not, and Diabolic Intent while still holding cards, so you can set up AdN on the following turn. If they counter DI/AdN then you have the option to go for PIF with Entomb. Other times, you are holding the Tendrils/PIF and you search for the other one because the deck simply has that much mana. Sometimes its business because you've filled up your yard with your business into their countersuite already. Its saved me a couple times when I've been sitting on like 6 or 7 lands thanks to multiple Explorer triggers.

[Final Fortune]

Mmm, I'm going to avoid it for as long as possible and test other things just because I think other things need to be tested, I was experimenting with the tutors in the deck compared to the cantrips and found myself liking Grim Tutor and disliking Sensei's Divining Top as far as the flex slots go. I also missed the second Ad Nauseam and think I either want it back or 2 Grim Tutor because there are a lot of starts where you open with a Cabal Therapy on turn one and then follw up with an Empty the Warrens + Flashback.

Deathwish is a poor man's substitute and I'm not sure how good Diminishing Returns is in this deck to be honest. Diabolic Intent is like the MVP of this deck as either a win condition or a set up card, sacrifing a Veteran Explorer and searching for Lion's Eye Diamond is a pretty insane play because you can instantly Infernal Tutor afterwards.

[Vacrix]

I looked at Death Wish already.. it wasn't too effective. Also, I tried adding in Death's Shadow. I swear one day I will get it to work.. probably with Berserk or something or perhaps in a Doomsday pile.

Anyway.. I found some potential creatures to experiment with with GSZ:

Child of Alara
This card looks good if you are going to run the playset of GSZ. The multitude of sac effects mean that you can use it to blow up with board, and it also beats for 6 trample. I think this card could potentially be a mainboard card; its good to have a random out and turn a spare GSZ into a business spell if you hit late game and either want to reset the board or just get in for there for the win.

Wolfir Silverheart
If you were to play a 'man plan' transformation, I'd play a couple of these guys since they turn spare Explorers/ESGs into beasts. And you can find them with Summoner's Pacts if you are in a situation with a lot of lands in play.

Terastodon
This card is something I'd consider for a post-board transformation like I mentioned above. It can potentially get 18 power on your side if you blow up your own stuff, and it also has the option of getting rid of troublesome permanents.

[Final Fortune]

Still messing around with this, one of the things I've found so far is that I SB out Summoner's Pact so often that I think I'm going to cut it entirely, the 5 extra Spirit Guides are ok but the tutor for Dryad Arbor and costing a land drop is really weak and commital compared to Green Sun's Zenith. Most of this decks appeal is the ability to outlast and out resource your opponent's, so I think just concentrating on building up the manabase and digging with Sensei's Divining Top makes a lot more sense and if you miss the bodies for your sacrifice outlets then you just add Xantid Swarms but so far I've gotten away with adding Bayou.

Also Natural Order is the best man plan ever, swap Ad Nauseam for Past in Flames and Empty the Warrens for Progenitus and watch them cry.

[Vacrix]

I hadn't found Summoner's Pact to be a problem usually because you can often pay the upkeep of 2GG with extra lands you get from Explorer. But in the GSZ build I see your point. Natural Order looks like it will be incredible, post-board. Child of Alara as well.. board sweepers are going to be huge as well in a lot of situations. What's your build look like lately? Balancing it and the sideboard doesn't look easy. I'll do some testing later today and see what happens.

[Final Fortune]

Summoner's Pact isn't a problem, it's just underwhelming and I'd prefer not to pass a turn after tutoring for a Veteran Explorer because a lot can happen in a turn. Summoner's Pact is a card that you're going to use when you want speed, that doesn't really seem to be what we're going for here when we can build a manabase and flashback a Cabal Therapy. We have like 14 creature equivalents in this deck and only 8 cards that need them in order to function, which makes Summoner's Pact a bit redundant considering I have 3 more Xantid Swarms in the board.

Right now, I've got

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Grim Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Verdant Catacombos
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

That's 59 cards, I keep fiddling with the ratio of Ad Nauseams and Sensei's Divining Tops and Grim Tutors (right now I have 1 Grim Tutor as the 60th card) because it's a careful balance between consistency and speed. I think I like 1 Ad Nauseam and 2 Grim Tutor tho', i've had some near misses flipping that 2nd Ad Nauseam.

I had to use Summoner's Pact for Elvish Spirit Guide so often that my intuition was that the deck really needs a way to ensure its second land drop more than it needs a way to find green creatures.

It may only be a matter of time until Brainstorm and Ponder find their way into the list, but I'd like to avoid that if possible, Top keeps the manabase durable if the deck a bit slow.

[Vacrix]

My guess is you'll probably end up playing Chrome Mox based on your current list. Otherwise, you'll find it difficult to hit enough mana sources after you play Ad Nauseam. This is why I liked having Pact. It helped in the post-AdN hands.

13 business seems like too much to me. I'd say you were spot on with Tops. In fact, I'd think that playing +1 Underground Sea, +4 Brainstorm would be a better way to find your business instead of trying to play extra business spells to reach consistency, much like ANT's approach. GSZ as extra shuffle effects seems good. Perhaps a split between Brainstorms and SDTs. I like Top, but without DD sometimes too many Tops without Brainstorm is a bad thing. I'd think more Brainstorms than Tops. My original list played Brainstorm. I'd give it a try. You should also try to cut Bayou's as well for Misty Rainforests. Grim Tutor costs too much, even with all the extra mana in this deck. Being able IT/DI early for spare resources on turn 2 is awesome. Grim Tutor on turn 3, not so much.

I like that your list has 4 GSZ/4 Therapy/1 Swarm as protection. Pretty dope, compressed protection package.

[Final Fortune]

I've been debating a lot of the numbers and card choices in the deck, as soon as we cut Summoner's Pact we become a worse Ad Nauseam deck but I think we should look at Ad Nauseam the same way ANT looks at Ad Nauseam as a secondary engine vs discard decks for Infernal Tutor and the primary engine for Diabolic Intent where Empty the Warrens is too slow on turn 2 because you need a creature and the Past in Flames is impossible when you can't recur Summoner's Pact anymore.

That got me thinking that this is probably an Ill Gotten Gains deck, where the presence of Xantid Swarm and flashback Cabal Therapy lets us circumvent the drawback on turn 2. T1 Cabal Therapy, T2 Veteran Explorer and we get to tutor for and cast Ill Gotten Gains, flashback Cabal Therapy and then finish the chain with the lands we put into play. If they play Deathrite Shaman no problem, we still have a turn before she loses summoning sickness or we can shit Goblins with Empty the Warrens or get sick with Ad Nauseam.

So we cut 2 Grim Tutor for 1 Ill Gotten Gains and then we carefully consider the number of Sensei's Divining Tops and Chrome Mox in the deck ... I'm guessing 3 Top and 2 Mox.

Generally I just feel like the original manabase was a little to land light for Green Sun's Zenith, those 2 Bayou made a world of difference. I think with an open SB we can incorperate all of these ideas together, for instance Pact and ESG in the MD, 4 Tops and 3 Xantid Swarms in the SB and then whatever graveyard engine we think best replaces the 2nd Ad Nauseam.

I'm still brewing and figuring out the card choices and numbers, so far all I'm certain of is that if you want to play Green Sun's Zenith then the land count has to go up.

Think I'm going to mess around with 1 Ill Gotten Gains, 1 Chrome Mox and 4 Sensei's Divining Top on MTGs under the assumption we never want to draw Chrome Mox and drawing a second Sensei's Divining Top isn't that bad with 12 shuffle effects. The deck just needs that "glue" card that gives it consistency and I don't want to play Brainstorms and expose myself to Wastelands. I'm going for attrition not speed so Brainstorm isn't really the right card I'm looking for. I may try some crazy shit like Plunge into Darkness or Tainted Pact or Night's Whispers but I'm pretty sure Top is just better.

[rhinoflipper]

I've been playing the following PSI list for a little while now with moderate success. I know the deck has recently been moving in a different direction, but I still like playing this.

4 Summoner's Pact
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Wild Cantor
SB: 4 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 3 Tomb of Urami
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm

It's a pretty stock list, but I wasn't sure about the sideboard that I made. Here are a few questions:
Should I have Cabal Therapy instead of Duress?
Is Xantid Swarm better than Autumn's Veil?
Is mixing the grindplan with the manplan silly?

Thanks!

[GoldenCid]

Maybe you wanna flip the 4 becher / 1 ToA into 4 ToA / 1 Belcher. You have 2 forest cards in the deck a just 4 card that take them out.

and for the man plan...i like the idea but just 3 tombs seems a bit poor. Maybe 6-8 mans would be right!

GC.

[rhinoflipper]

Maybe you wanna flip the 4 becher / 1 ToA into 4 ToA / 1 Belcher. You have 2 forest cards in the deck a just 4 card that take them out.
I feel that most of the time postboard vs. blue comes from forcing through a belcher and just activating it over and over again until they die. Occasionally I can bait out their forces and just combo off normally, but generally I am truly grinding; using my D4s as random CA instead of chaining them, trying to outdamage my opponent, not combo off. Yes, I lose a little explosiveness with 4 belchers, but I think I make up for that by having a crazy strong game against blue. I'll test your changes.


and for the man plan...i like the idea but just 3 tombs seems a bit poor. Maybe 6-8 mans would be right!

The way I use it, Tomb is just part of the grind plan (tries to outdamage my opponent). I'd love to hear why more "men" are necessary!

I guess another question is this: what exactly does the manplan seek to do?

Thanks a lot for the response!

[GoldenCid]

I feel that most of the time postboard vs. blue comes from forcing through a belcher and just activating it over and over again until they die. Occasionally I can bait out their forces and just combo off normally, but generally I am truly grinding; using my D4s as random CA instead of chaining them, trying to outdamage my opponent, not combo off. Yes, I lose a little explosiveness with 4 belchers, but I think I make up for that by having a crazy strong game against blue. I'll test your changes, but I'm not positive that they


The way I use it, Tomb is just part of the grind plan (tries to outdamage my opponent). I'd love to hear why more "men" are necessary!

I guess another question is this: what exactly does the manplan seek to do?

Thanks a lot for the response!

I'm not expert on the deck, but man plan tries to souprise the oponent with a fast very harmful creature. Most of deck which run StP or spot creature removal will side them out in order to side in other more useful cards. In a general way the man plan makes cards like spell pierce or flusterstorm less valuable for you oponent. Not to mention that if you got BBBB in you pool tomb is an uncountereable 5/5 flying demon!
Anyway winning with storm or with a guy is almost the same difficult because probably your opo will cast counter magic targeting rituals and other spells...however the idea is good.
Now....wich men are the best? i dont know...I like Phyrexian Negator because you can simply go for petal, DR and negator for the win. I like tomb too!!!

Other are Phyrexian Obliterator and Tombstalker.

GC.

[rhinoflipper]

I'm not expert on the deck, but man plan tries to souprise the oponent with a fast very harmful creature. Most of deck which run StP or spot creature removal will side them out in order to side in other more useful cards. In a general way the man plan makes cards like spell pierce or flusterstorm less valuable for you oponent. Not to mention that if you got BBBB in you pool tomb is an uncountereable 5/5 flying demon!
Anyway winning with storm or with a guy is almost the same difficult because probably your opo will cast counter magic targeting rituals and other spells...however the idea is good.
Now....wich men are the best? i dont know...I like Phyrexian Negator because you can simply go for petal, DR and negator for the win. I like tomb too!!!

Other are Phyrexian Obliterator and Tombstalker.

GC.

That makes sense. I think I understand how to do the manplan, but how would you suggest I do a full grindplan? I imagine it might use Lotus Bloom or Autumn's Veil, but I don't really know.

Thanks again!

[GoldenCid]

Mm....i think that question could be better answered by vacrix or finalfortune

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[Holly]

4 carpet of flowers
4 Lotus bloom though some numbers of tomb are fine too depending on the matchups you're expecting.
4/3 split of duress/thoughtseize/autums veil

[rhinoflipper]

4 carpet of flowers
4 Lotus bloom though some numbers of tomb are fine too depending on the matchups you're expecting.
4/3 split of duress/thoughtseize/autums veil
Ok, this sounds good. Am I correct in saying that postboard, my plan is to resolve belcher and eat away at my opponents' life? Since I board out a lot of explosive cards, am I really trying to win with tendrils? If I am correct, then wouldn't swarms be better than veil?

Thanks!

[GoldenCid]

Maybe you could show us how you side in order to help / lear in the best form.

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[Holly]

You can play Swarms if you want, as I said it depends on the matchup you're going to face. If you're playing against tempo decks with lightning bolt the swarm is no good, they will keep them in, in anticipation of the swarm and to fasten their clock.
If all you're facing are slow blue decks like Miracles, Blade-Control or something like High Tide swarm is good.

Boarding.. well start by cutting the Pact-stuff since you don't want to pact versus blue.
4 Summoners Pact
4 Culling the Weak
1 Skyshroud Cutter
1 Wild Cantor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains (sucks without an active Swarm/Veil)
4 more to go which now varies a lot imho.
You could shave 1-2 ESG, 1 d4, the Tendrils, the Empty, the Arbor, 1 tutor.
it does depend what deck your opponent plays and what hes seen so far.
Did you kill him with ETW/does he expect it? If yes he will board something -> you can cut it.
Is his deck slow enough for a natural Tendrils, using his storm count? Leave it in.

[rhinoflipper]

Maybe you could show us how you side in order to help / lear in the best form.

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Typically I do:
-4 culling
-4 pact
-4 esg
-1 cutter
-1 cantor
-1 arbor

+everything

Against Thresh, I leave my tombs out and leave in usually esg.

[Final Fortune]

If you cut Belchers from the lists with Land Grant then you may as well cut Land Grant and play Fetchlands so they can't see your hand and then counter your land drops.

If you want to play the mono black version of this deck, just play with the robots, Vault of Secrets and Mox Opal to max out on all of the fast mana or Swamps and Kobolds so you can build up a wasteland proof manabase and feed your dead cards to Chrome Mox.

[GoldenCid]

I am not saying that we should cut all belcher copies. I just think that i prefer more copies of toa over belcher.

Morever....i was goldfinishing the deck and i really want to increase my t1 combio ratio. How do you think i could do that?? Maybe i'm the problem but i can hardly go off without fizzle t1.

This is the list i goldfished:

8 D4
4 petal
4 mox
4 Pact
4 IT
4 ESG
2 Shaman
1 Cutter
1 Cantor
4 Culling
4 D. ritual
4 C. ritual
1 IGG
4 Tedirils
1 Belcher
4 LED
4 Land grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad arbor

Thx!!

[rhinoflipper]

I am not saying that we should cut all belcher copies. I just think that i prefer more copies of toa over belcher.

Morever....i was goldfinishing the deck and i really want to increase my t1 combio ratio. How do you think i could do that?? Maybe i'm the problem but i can hardly go off without fizzle t1.

This is the list i goldfished:

8 D4
4 petal
4 mox
4 Pact
4 IT
4 ESG
2 Shaman
1 Cutter
1 Cantor
4 Culling
4 D. ritual
4 C. ritual
1 IGG
4 Tedirils
1 Belcher
4 LED
4 Land grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad arbor

Thx!!
Run Empty. That card is OP.

[GoldenCid]

In place of?

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[rhinoflipper]

In place of?

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-1 Shaman
+1 Empty

[GoldenCid]

Ops, i thoguht on igg. Creatures makes culling the weak worth

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[Eclipsebolt]

In this deck:


Mana:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

Cheeri0s:
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere

Draw 4:
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract

Tutors:
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Infernal Tutor

Business:
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin Charbelcher


Are these keep-able hands? or do you throw them away?(this is game one against unknown opponent)


hand 1:
1 tendrils
3 LED
1 infernal tutor
1 walker
1 dark rit


hand 2:
3 land grant
1 bragain
1 thropter
1 walker
1 culling

hand 3:
1 culling
2 walker
1 dark rit
1 cabal rit
1 mox
1 sphere


hand 4:
1 belcher
1 tendrils
1 cabal rit
1 petal
1 contract
1 dark rit
1 LED

for this hand, do you crack led in response to your D4 and drop your win cons? or do you hope to draw mana sources?

hand 5:
1 petal
2 walker
2 contract
1 culling
1 belcher

do you belcher and hope to draw mana? or D4?

[Zupponn]

Okay, so I was looking at the last few pages and started playing around with stuff. I'm usually not a combo player, but Spanish Inquisition has always intrigued me (might be because of the name?) so I took a shot at creating something silly.


4x Veteran Explorer
1x Primeval Titan
1x Dryad Arbor

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Diabolic Intent
4x Infernal Tutor
2x Infernal Contract
2x Cruel Bargain
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony

4x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Depths

I started with Final Fortune's list 2 pages back (I think) with the GSZs and started playing around with it. I found that it can generate a buttload of mana really fast and I was finding myself usually with more mana than I knew what to do with. The thought occurred to me, "Why don't I give Prime Time a try with Stage/Depths combo?" and I giggled at the thought, so I tried it out. It works, surprisingly, and I've been able to go both the Tendrils route and the Stage/Depths route multiple times when goldfishing. I haven't really tried it against anyone yet, so I have no clue how good it is, or even if my numbers are right, but it does make me smile when it goes off. :D

[Final Fortune]

So Nudon brought up the Forest Cycling creatures in the Hermit Druid thread I thought it might have some applications in SI as well for a deck like Pact SI playing Land Grant and Goblin Charbelchers to up the kill % of the Belcher activations.

I actually think Forest Cycling may have a lot of applications across combo decks as stupid as that sounds.

[haganbmj]

Okay, so I was looking at the last few pages and started playing around with stuff. I'm usually not a combo player, but Spanish Inquisition has always intrigued me (might be because of the name?) so I took a shot at creating something silly.

I played something similar in nature a month or two ago at my local store, I was using Sigarda as my green fatty of choice because it was one slot and the perfect mana cost to green sun for off of Culling the Weak + Veteran Explorer. That being said, I lost a few games because Sigarda can be slow. Batterskull is a real problem for that game plan. I like the idea of Prime Titan since you're essentially generating two bodies - one of which can't be dealt with at Sorcery speed - seems reasonable. I might have to try that out some time.


Spells
Land
Sideboard


1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman

1 Rain of Filth
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
2 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor

1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Mountain
2 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroclasm
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Massacre
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Ruric Thar, the Reasonably Endowed


Awful pictures below.
http://i.imgur.com/pkL5Jkk.png
http://i.imgur.com/xdgGIcr.png
http://i.imgur.com/2EUqmrx.png
(Forgot there wasn't a spoiler tag on this site)

Couple of notes on the build I arrived at...

I didn't like the draw fours. The life loss was too rough if you weren't winning the same turn and they were subpar off of Ad Nauseam.
I played Duress over Thoughtseize main as a meta choice, that could be changed though.
The deck is not as fast as some other combo decks, but basic lands at Sensei's Top gave it some resiliency.
Thrun in the board was useless, maybe a Natural Order would be alright in that slot.
Never wished for IGG.
This is not a great deck.
6 Basics is probably one too many. Might be a Wooded Foothills.
Highlight while playing the deck was Infernal Tutoring for Ruric Thar against High Tide because I put him on having Flusterstorm (and he did).
I might come back to this. :)

Just some food for thought.

[GoldenCid]

How did you deal with that set of watery grave?

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[haganbmj]

How did you deal with that set of watery grave?

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Assuming you meant in my deck, that's a set of Verdant Catacombs, not Watery Grave.

[GoldenCid]

Ok. You were right. Awful pictures

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[haganbmj]

Ok. You were right. Awful pictures

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Absolutely awful pictures.

Ultra Pro Perfect Fits with Dragonshield Sleeves make for the worst glare.

[Megadeus]

-1 Something, +1 Worldspine Wurm to NO for out of the board. Cast that Ad Nauseam and yolo

[Eclipsebolt]

I like the fact i dont rely on storm so much with his deck, but i feel like a lot of the time it has some massive dead draws of random useless artifacts.

4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ornithopter
1 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Tendrils of Agony
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Infernal Tutor
SB: 4 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Nature's Claim


is this better than the deck i posted earlier?

[Final Fortune]

I like the fact i dont rely on storm so much with his deck, but i feel like a lot of the time it has some massive dead draws of random useless artifacts.

4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ornithopter
1 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Tendrils of Agony
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Infernal Tutor
SB: 4 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Nature's Claim


is this better than the deck i posted earlier?

That version of the deck is fine but you probably don't need the 9th creature or the 2nd Ill Gotten Gains and you'd definitely be better off with 8 Kobolds and an Empty the Warrens.

[Eclipsebolt]

That version of the deck is fine but you probably don't need the 9th creature or the 2nd Ill Gotten Gains and you'd definitely be better off with 8 Kobolds and an Empty the Warrens.

is empty hard to play with such a lack of red mana sources? i havent kept much track of my mana filtering in this version since its almost always been for black lol

[DarthVicious]

I've been testing a new build of this the past few days... looks very promising. I'll put it up when I get home from work.

Yes, the Sith Lord is back. From the dead. Resurrecting old storm threads.

*Diabolical Laughter*




Edit: No Land Grant, Mox Opal, or Summoner's Pact.

[Final Fortune]

is empty hard to play with such a lack of red mana sources? i havent kept much track of my mana filtering in this version since its almost always been for black lol

What lack of red mana sources? Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox + Kobold are plenty red mana sources.

Don't play robots unless you're playing Mox Opal, that's really bad and always has been frankly. When the deck was originally built the creator thought that blocking Goblins was relevant despite Kobolds increasing the fundamental turn 1 kill because they were imprintable ... not exactly relevant any more ...

[Vacrix]

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Blood Pet
4 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Tendrils of Agony


SB at this point consists of:

4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Pact of Negation
4 Autumn's Veil
3 Goblin Charbelcher


The amount of free mana available is awesome. Manamorphose is an all-star. Culling is playable more often, and the lambs all provide mana also if you don't draw a Culling or you fizzle. Fishing this deck I often cast dudes and sac them for mana just for storm count and/or threshold for Cabal. I could see messing around with the 4 Tendrils though, maybe add an Empty or two, or even a (gasp!) Brain Freeze.

Carpet in this deck should be a no brainer, as should Belcher. Pact catches more people off guard than this deck does in general, and Guttural is castable off either Spirit Guide as a pseudo-Force Probe gives you information Veil is still better.

Interesting list. SSG/ESG is a lot of Daze protection, and those Bloodpets are good with Mox for pass the turn plays. I see the appeal of playing Landless but no Belcher's in the maindeck? Anyone who knows the deck will surely board in Pithing Needle expecting Belcher. Given 4 IT, I'd put a single Empty the Warrens in there, and experiment with a Recross the Paths. Stacking the deck without lands and multiple green sources sounds pretty good. It would probably be even better post-board since it gives you inevitability if you stack the deck with a couple Pacts before going off.

[DarthVicious]

Interesting list. SSG/ESG is a lot of Daze protection, and those Bloodpets are good with Mox for pass the turn plays. I see the appeal of playing Landless but no Belcher's in the maindeck? Anyone who knows the deck will surely board in Pithing Needle expecting Belcher. Given 4 IT, I'd put a single Empty the Warrens in there, and experiment with a Recross the Paths. Stacking the deck without lands and multiple green sources sounds pretty good. It would probably be even better post-board since it gives you inevitability if you stack the deck with a couple Pacts before going off.

Sadly, after some fishing, I'm going back to Pact. And Blooms. Not enough initial mana in this list.

But Recross the Paths sounds interesting...

[DarthVicious]

So, once again... I'm back.
And of course, I have yet another list. (I think I post too many of these, but...)


4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Ornithopter
2 Phyrexian Walker

4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Regrowth
2 Goblin Charbelcher



SB:

4 Lotus Bloom
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Storm Entity



Opal looks much better with the new legend rule, multiples function as Lotus Petals.
Regrowth is just nuts. As your graveyard gets bigger it can turn into Demonic Tutor.
Storm Entity is an alternate win condition that is unaffected by Leyline and Flusterstorm.

Edit: SSG could also be Abrupt Decay or Void Snare if you wanted answers for permanent-based hate.

[owerbart]

Hello. I've been playing this deck for over a year now, and I would really like to see it in the main stage some time, it's definetely a good deck.
I'm currently running the Robot Version because I grow tired of dying to my own pacts (maybe are bad plays by me though)
Do you think abrupt Decay may have a home in SB for the Robot Version? Specially against pesky stuff life f**cking counterbalance. I'm still torn on which 15 cards to put on Sideboard.

current list:

Sorcery (27)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Cruel Bargain
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Infernal Contract
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Land Grant
1x Tendrils of Agony
Land (2)
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
Artifact (15)
4x Chrome Mox
2x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Opal
Instant (11)
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual
Creature (6)
2x Phyrexian Walker
4x Shield Sphere


Also I'm Building UW Miracles in order to playtest a lot against blue.

[Vacrix]

Wow.. that does change things. Mox Opal is incredible now. With the extra perpetual mana sources, I'm thinking that SDT could be pretty damn good. Also, robots and Therapies. The question is, how to fit it all into one list. I'll work on something and post it when I get a chance.

I don't think green is necessary unless you want to run the Pact-package. Regrowth is good, but I think often its not going to be worth it to waste space on ESGs.

[Mephistopheles]

How should I go about playtesting vs various decks? It wouldn't be an issue of anyone else I knew played legacy, but they do not.

[GoldenCid]

How should I go about playtesting vs various decks? It wouldn't be an issue of anyone else I knew played legacy, but they do not.

Im not sure i ubderstood your question but if you are starting with the deck i think that goldfishing is a good first step.

Im in that stage. i'm goldfishing 10-12 hands per day in order to indetify which are t1 or t2 win hands and which cards are target of sideboarthing.

in my playtest, i found this question:

Which is the number of 4 cmc cards?

Im trying a list with 4 tendrils, 1 belcher and 1 igg.

[Mephistopheles]

Im not sure i ubderstood your question but if you are starting with the deck i think that goldfishing is a good first step.

Im in that stage. i'm goldfishing 10-12 hands per day in order to indetify which are t1 or t2 win hands and which cards are target of sideboarthing.

in my playtest, i found this question:

Which is the number of 4 cmc cards?

Im trying a list with 4 tendrils, 1 belcher and 1 igg.

Thank you for the reply, I'm talking about learning to play around counterspells, and other situations that would affect play.

[GoldenCid]

Maybe if you share your list it could help

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[owerbart]

has anyone checked out ballinMD decklist at salvation?

[owerbart]

I've been toying around with Noxious Revival. Could be useful for returning a ritual if we are running short of gas, and may also provide free storm count.

[Lucipher2k]

@owerbart:

Would you mind sharing that list?

[owerbart]

@owerbart:

Would you mind sharing that list?

I'm still trying to fine tune it. The problem is I still don't know what are the best things to cut.

I'm also trying the Kobold Version. If we forgo Mox Opals then Robots can be cut for 0 mana cost Kobolds, which improves our chrome moxes. Maybe a Black-Red version with burning wishes and some red rituals?

Also I'm still convinced that Death Wish may be a greater card than it is.

[byes]

4 simian spirit guide
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mix
4 mana morphos
4 rite of flame
4 dark ritual
4 culling the week
4 land grant
4 cabal ritual
1 taiga
8 cobalds
8 draw x4
4 burning wish
3 goblin charbelcher

Just an idea.

[owerbart]

4 simian spirit guide
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mix
4 mana morphos
4 rite of flame
4 dark ritual
4 culling the week
4 land grant
4 cabal ritual
1 taiga
8 cobalds
8 draw x4
4 burning wish
3 goblin charbelcher

Just an idea.

I don't think you can part from the bayou and the LEDs. Also only one wincon?

Still, interesting idea, i'll sleeve it and try it out.

[byes]

The burning wish find any number of wincons from the side board as well as more draw and answers. Bayou may be right haven't tried it yet just needing red allows for color fixing and our main wincons main deck. I want led as well especially with the wish just not sure where to fit them in.

[owerbart]

Hi. So after some testing, I decided to bring to my LGS a kind of "updated" version of Roger Riera's Spanish Inquisition featuring Death Wish. The card requires a little bit of a more stable manabase, so I had to part with the Dryad Arbor in favor of a second Bayou, I came back to play with 7 Tall Men in order to replace the creature cull, and I went 2 and 2 with Death Wish and Infernal Tutor.

Benefits of Deathwish:

1. You don't need to empty your hand, so it's not that much dependant on LED
2. Finds you ANY card, unlike Burning Wish.
3. You don't have to reveal a damn thing.

Point 2 IMO is one of the greatest benefits due to the fact that the card now grants a deck a silver bullet sideboard. Of course you play with 1 Tendrils, 1 Empty and 1 Charbelcher in SB so you can wish for them, but also you can play with your regular sideboard which can be devastating if you can bring some of your silver bullet pieces in Game 1.

My report:

R1 Against Miracles.

G1: I probed him on the play and realized he was on Miracles. I went Land Grant searching for a Bayou and Therapied his spell pierce, and Turn 4 I'm able to activate a Goblin Charbelcher with my two Bayous out and a Triple Therapy.
G2: He goes top and go. I go for T1 Carpet of Flowers which gets FoW'd I drop a LED and pass, and next turn a Tomb of Urami starts smacking.

R2 Against 4 Color Loam.

G1: I know that he's on loam, so I just goldfish T1. My first Cruel Bargain gives me an overkill tendrils.
G2: He goes T1 Mox, Taiga, Chalice on 0 and Chalice at 1. Damn. I play a bayou which Luckily doesn't eat a wasteland next turn. T3 I believe he drops a Liliana who ticks up but I discard useless stuff, and he can't find any pressure to put on the table. In my T3 I go Land Grant, Bayou, Cabal Ritual, Death Wish, going for my SB Tomb of Urami. He wastes it so I'm back at two lands. Like T7 I'm able to activate a Goblin Charbelcher through 2 topdecked Cabal Rituals (with Threshold in part due to Liliana) and the game is over.

R3 Against Merfolks
G1: I go turn 1 probe, therapy removing the pesky Cursecatcher. I believe T3 I activate a Belcher which luckily didn't revealed my second Land.
G2: T1 Cursecatcher + FoW, Daze, Spell pierce, I'm never able to find anything and I die to the fishmen.
G3: I'm pretty sure I fucked up my sideboard here, because to be honest I think that boarding in Carpet of Flowers is a mistake. I therapy him, he has nothing T1, so I decided to go all in after a mulligan. I find a belcher but no real ways to activate it, and Cursecatcher + heavy countermagic kills me.

R4 Against Death and Taxes.
G1: I know he's on Death and Taxes, so I don't even waste a turn trying to therapying him, and go comfortably for 12 Goblin Tokens which I sac one to remove his Lady Gaga (Stoneforge Mystic) and he can't do anything
G2: Since I'm one of the few people who plays combo I'm not expecting any real defence like Mindbreak Trap. He goes T1 Vial and laughs because he can't do anything. I therapy him T1 removing Thalia and I Belch him with all my lands out T3.

Final standings:

1. R/g Goblins (MD Blood Moon raped a lot of people, they told me)
2. Merfolks
3. Spanish Inquisition (Me)
4. Death and Taxes
5. BUG Delver
6. Miracles
7. RUG Delver
8. BUG Delver
9. 4 Color Loam
10. ANT
11. RUG Delver
12. UR Delver (The deck looks busted without Cruise)
13. Deathblade
14. Death and Taxes
15. Grixis Delver

Death Wish is an interesting tool which can be great for the right meta calls. I wish I had a Forest in my sideboard, but with the 3 boarded wincons + the manplan there's not a lot of space :(

[LOLWut]

Nicely done. The list I know from years ago looks like:

// Lands
2 Bayou

// Creature
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere

// Instants & Sorceries
4 Land Grant
4 Infernal Contract
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Tendrils of Agony
2 Death Wish

// Artifacts
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
2 Goblin Charbelcher

SB:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Naturalize
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tomb of Urami

I'm curious to see the layout besides what I assume are a couple Probes and a Mox Opal.

[Lucipher2k]

@owerbart: Congrats on the results, nice to see a SI in the top 3. :) Do you played a similar list posted above by LOLWut?

[DarthVicious]

Wow.. that does change things. Mox Opal is incredible now. With the extra perpetual mana sources, I'm thinking that SDT could be pretty damn good. Also, robots and Therapies. The question is, how to fit it all into one list. I'll work on something and post it when I get a chance.

I don't think green is necessary unless you want to run the Pact-package. Regrowth is good, but I think often its not going to be worth it to waste space on ESGs.

Indeed. Regrowth isn't as good as Noxious Revival could be, I think. ESG/SSG also aren't worth the space, IMO.

I want to add land to my list, but... Charbelcher. Chrome Mox isn't as good in my artifact-based list, however. But they are free storm count when dropped without imprint. As if storm count is ever a problem...

What I really want for this deck is either/both of: another black ritual, or another draw4. I'll drop all the cute tricks in the world for a basic list with one of those replacing all the other hoops we have to jump through with this deck.

EDIT: Anyone have opinions/testing results with Storm Entity?

[Vacrix]

Mox Opal has looked promising even in a small number of games. The only problem I have with it is that I'm still biased toward the Pact list. I think Mox Opal is likely going to be best in a SITES list that goes for Empty the Warrens as its primary win condition. Most likely you can fit Cabal Therapy into the mix as well, or you can run SSG for additional speed, color fixing, and Daze protection.. or you can play Gitaxian Probe and have better Therapies, raise storm count for Empty the Warrens, and know when you're going all in on a tutor into a FoW vs. not knowing and waiting for protection or a 2nd option.

Storm Entity.. is more fun than it is dangerous. It could be good sideboard material but it would need testing. I see it being too conditional. Its advantage is that its cheap; 1R is easy to come by if you play business and they counter it. But it doesn't work the way you want it to in hands that use tutors + LED, making it limiting in certain situations. Then again, if you have enough mana you can play it BEFORE the tutor to draw countermagic. The other thing is that you need storm count for it to really do anything; consider that SI post-board plans tend to work through attrition and threats in top deck mode. Storm Entity isn't really a threat when you are in topdeck mode. In that sense, a topdecked Tomb of Urami, Phyrexian Obliterator, Death's Shadow, etc. are more dangerous and work better with the Carpet slow-roll plan. Storm Entity COULD be a good topdeck though if you already have something like PIF in your graveyard. If you want to fit Storm Entity into something, I'd say, start with SITES.


What I really want for this deck is either/both of: another black ritual, or another draw4. I'll drop all the cute tricks in the world for a basic list with one of those replacing all the other hoops we have to jump through with this deck.
Speaking of which... another D4 would be incredible. Then we could run 4 Tendrils and have very high chances of hitting a D4 + Tendrils.

Though I've been looking into some different options lately. We've explored them already.. but I admit I've overlooked a couple things. Check it out..

- Potential Business -
Draw engines
Cruel Bargain
Infernal Contract
Pain's Reward (haven't had any luck with this)
Ad Nauseam (an alternative engine option to the D4s)

Kill spells
Tendrils of Agony
Empty the Warrens

Utility spells
Ill-Gotten Gains
Past in Flames
Slithermuse

Tutors
Infernal Tutor
Burning Wish
Plunge into Darkness (perhaps in place of D4s but not with D4s)
Death Wish
Rhystic Tutor
Doomsday (takes up a lot of deck space, and needs a lot of cantrips)
Grim Tutor

On the business side of things.. Grim Tutor is incredibly expensive. If you have them, great.. but Rhystic Tutor does everything we want it to do for, say, Pact SI which is trying to win on the first turn anyway. An opponent can't pay 2 mana if we go first. They also can't pay 2 mana if they are on the play. They need to hit 2 lands.. and we know aggro control is set back a full turn on lands when they play Daze. Its definitely not a card we want to be playing in game 2/3 but.. the other advantage of playing it is its that it has mind-fucking potential. Do they want to counter the business.. or the mana? This is often the dilemma a control player has. A player unfamiliar with SI might side on countering the business instead of the mana if they see Rhystic Tutor because they might just beable to pay 2 and save their countermagic... not knowing, of course, that we boarded it out. Compared to Grim Tutor, Rhystic Tutor is fucking fantastic, costing 2B instead of 1BB. Anyone with experience with the Pact list knows that extra green sources usually go into IT or Cabal Rituals, or Tendrils.. but being able to pour it into a business spell is pretty damn useful.

The downside of Rhystic Tutor is that we'd have to board it out.. and in Game 1, we really are at a disadvantage if we have to wait a couple turns in cases when Rhystic Tutor is our business spell.

Grim Tutor.. on the other hand, pushes the decks price through the roof. It has different conditions.. for example.. it wouldn't be such a great business spell if you've already played three D4s. It also costs BB which for the Pact list isn't quite as smooth as 2B of Rhystic or 1B of Infernal. Grim Tutor has been played to success in ANT though so its hard to rule it out as potential business.

Death Wish. I did a lot of experimenting with it today. I like it for a lot of reasons, and I dislike it for almost as many. Its incredibly flexible because you can play a huge sideboard of answers. It costs a mere 1BB (much like Grim tutor). It allows you to play build variations that take up less deck space (huge). Its an alternative to Goblin Charbelcher in the sense that it also leads to a 7 mana kill (Belcher is 4 + 3 for activation while DW is 1BB + 2BB).. which means you can play variations that can play lands. I tried a SITES build that played Death Wish, Burning Wish, and Empty the Warrens and was very satisfied with different variations on it. Its more flexible than our go-to tutor; Infernal.

The down side is that its RFG after you play it. This means that you're SOL for utility tricks with IGG or PIF. You're welcome to plays like Empty the Warrens and Slithermuse, but Tendrils I found to be slightly more difficult. Keep in mind I was playing Death Wish in various Mox Opal, Tallman shells. I need to test it more in the Pact list where it might be more useful.

It also cuts down on your sideboard space. The Carpet of Flowers slow roll game plan is fantastic against decks like Miracles and Stoneblade. I'm not sure that Death Wish's flexibility in the maindeck compensates for a weaker sideboard plan.


The other thing was 'another black ritual'. Turns out today I've been playing with some avant garde acceleration options.
- Acceleration -
Initial mana sources
Chrome Mox
Lotus Petal
Mox Opal
Elvish Spirit Guide
Simian Spirit Guide
Land Grant
Lands

Rituals
Lion's Eye Diamond
Rite of Flame
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Culling the Weak
Burnt Offering
Sacrifice

I'll discuss Mox Opal first. Considering that now we can avoid its previous problem of being useless in multiples thanks to changes in the legend rule, I've taken a renewed interest in the card. It has the potential to reinvent the robot lists. It has color flexibility, and you can build around it to support the metalcraft condition. Its also an additional perpetual resource, which also works to our advantage when we move to post-board. Also, no storm deck is going to utilize it as well as SI because we can play D4's early on with other resources and then hit metalcraft. Also, we can play robots.

The problem I see with it is that robots make mulligans problematic. In contrast to the Pact lists, they mulligan poorly and make D4s less reliable.

On the upside, it encourages pilots to find space for Cabal Therapy (and potentially Probe) for additional protection. Its also going to be better in SITES lists where robots are part of the shell, and where playing extra Moxen helps you to hit a higher storm count for Empty the Warrens.

Rite of Flame.. it might have potential in lists playing 4 BW, 3 Empty the Warrens (ie. SITES), and throwing PIF in couldn't be bad either. I see it being useless though for casting D4s, which is the deck's core engine. Still.. we might find a build that uses the SI acceleration package, but plays into Empty the Warrens as the primary game plan. I'm referring to replacing D4s with things like Death Wish, Plunge into Darkness, Grim Tutor.. and/or playing additional protection packages.

And now.. Burnt Offering/Sacrifice. We've discussed it before, and tried it.. but last time I tested these cards my primary focus was Skyshroud Cutter and I completely overlooked other tech. Specifically, oldschool pact tech; Vine Dryad. I played a bunch of games today with variations on Vine Dryad and Skyshroud Cutter (3/1, 2/1, 1/1) within the pact package, and replaced Cabal Ritual with Burnt Offering. I've noticed that the disadvantage of Cabal Ritual is usually you're turning 3 cards into 3 black mana. In longer D4 chains, Cabal Ritual nets you 3 black, but not all hands allow for this line of play. Vine Dryad/Cutter has the advantage of being virtually free. So you can turn 4 cards into 4 black mana, and in some cases, 3 cards into 4 black mana. Cutter in particular can be very powerful in combination with Pact/Grant. When I have hands that have both Culling and Offering.. Grant for Arbor, Pact for Cutter, and you're at 7 or 8 black mana. Mulligans haven't been as solid (within the small sample size of testing I'm talking about) and I'm still trying to work out whether or not this is an effective alternative to the typical pact acceleration package. As I was writing this, I did some research and stumbled upon.. potentially.. gold.. though its probably cooler than it is functional; Hooting Mandrills. 5G for a 4/4 trample..... with Delve. Delve. I considered that when my list forgoes Crit for Burnt Offering, I don't really care about Threshold. This could mean that we can turn Pact/Offering + BG into BBB BBB. Likely this would be more applicable to situations in which at least 1 D4 was played. I'm going to test it after I finish this post.


We've discussed the man plan to death but something in my gatherer searches today did peak my interest; Durkwood Baloth. Not a god saving solution to U.dec but it sure can force a hard counter (avoids Daze/Pierce). Might be worth looking into as a supplement to current man plan boards, ie. Tomb of Urami, Phyrexian Obliterator, Death's Shadow. etc.

EDIT:
I'll post some potential lists sometime this week. Mox Opal SITES lists, some tutor-heavy business lists, Pact variations, and a few other things.

EDIT 2:
Hooting Mandrills is terrible. Cool, but not as cool as Allosaurus Rider. lol

I'm still not sure one way or the other if Burnt Offering Cutter/Dryad approach to the acceleration package is worth it.. but in limited testing its incredibly explosive. My lists right now have dropped Belcher completely in favor of multiple copies of Tendrils. I had a hand like LG, Pact, Petal, Culling, Offering, Tendrils x2. Pretty dope. Others were more like.. get Dryad and Cutter, sac Dryad to Culling, and then I run into another copy of Culling or Offering.. I've been going back and forth between the full playset of Burnt Offerings, and then other variations that split Offerings and Crit. I absolutely hate the shuffler on Cockatrice though. Gives me bullshit so often. I have Vine Dryad, and I play Cutter maindeck so I just need to dig up some Burnt Offerings.

I've put Rhystic Tutor, Grim Tutor, Plunge into Darkness, and Death Wish on hold for the moment. Same with Mox Opal and SITES. I really feel good about Burnt Offering for some reason. By comparison to Culling the Weak.. 7 to 8 tallmen tend to support it or we feed Culling to a Chrome Mox. The Pact list could adjust to that concept as well given that Land Grant/Pact + Deathrite Shaman Arbor are 10 tallmen.. and adding Cutter/Vine Dryad means that you'll have 12 or 13 lambs.. 6 to 7 of which interact with 2 to 4 copies of Burnt Offering. I'm leaning toward 2.. so the question is the same as Culling the Weak; are the situations in which its uncastable outweight its power as an additional acceleration piece. And also.. does it make the deck better than having Cabal Ritual.. and of course, how does this affect the sideboard.

[DarthVicious]

Dark Deal... Ill Gotten Gains... Dream Salvage...
The possibilities...

Ahem... I'm still addicted to Crack Ritual... I mean I like using Cabal Ritual. It's just so much mana. So is Culling, but I think a lot of the problems in this deck come from the limitations of using "moar doodz in ur deck, brah".

Testing a version that uses swamps. I will soon be testing a list that incorporates the Black Wheel also.

[owerbart]

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/spanish-belcher/

Has anyone seen this? The original idea was to complement the black rituals with red rituals, and Manaforge Cinder (originally agent of stromgald) to switch the color of your mana. You can even go for a seething song of black mana. The switchers also function as culling material.

[owerbart]

Another ritual that could be useful with things like burnt offering and more sacking effects is Songs of The Damned. We can even play with street wraith to fuel it

[DarthVicious]

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/spanish-belcher/

Has anyone seen this? The original idea was to complement the black rituals with red rituals, and Manaforge Cinder (originally agent of stromgald) to switch the color of your mana. You can even go for a seething song of black mana. The switchers also function as culling material.

I had an idea like that a while back but decided not to pursue tuning it. I've been heavily leaning towards monocolor for a while, just for pure speed and consistency, albeit at the cost of flexibility and resiliency.

Dark Deal

Now that is an idea. It doesn't play well with LED, but that's not the point of the card. Often I find myself with four business cards and no mana... or even worse, sometimes you fizzle with 10+ cards in hand. This card stops all that, and potentially ruins your opponent's day. Three mana for a Black Wheel that keeps your chain going? Sign me up.

[l33twashOr]

So whats a good list to start with this deck? Wondering if I should give it a shot for one FMN atleast since I tried Oops all my spells already and learning Doomsday will take some time.

[owerbart]

So whats a good list to start with this deck? Wondering if I should give it a shot for one FMN atleast since I tried Oops all my spells already and learning Doomsday will take some time.

Colby Evenpence's original list in page one is a good way to start learning the mechanics of the deck.

On another topic, did anyone tried Songs of the Damned? You can try to mix some Street Wraiths, so it can be fueled both with street wraiths and culling stuff.

[Namida]

Personally, I'd suggest the Land Grant version of the list with the 0 mana guys. I started out with the Pact version myself, but it took a whole lot of solitaire to figure things out--I had taken the deck to the local store and no one could win with it at all, so it's definitely not a deck you can pick up and play.

Songs of the Damned requires you to jump through more hoops than Culling the Weak does, and Culling the Weak is already a borderline card. Adding Street Wraith to the equation is just adding more bad cards--the most important part of playing this deck is evaluating your opening hand, and playing Street Wraith means that sometimes you're going to have opening hands where important information is hidden from you because you don't know what your Street Wraith will turn into.

[CabalTherapy]

Well, guys, excuse me for posting here but I am sure that SI is the best deck for the new tutor, Dark Petition.
I think I am going to brew a spicy new list.

[Ancestral]

Well, guys, excuse me for posting here but I am sure that SI is the best deck for the new tutor, Dark Petition.
I think I am going to brew a spicy new list.

that would be nice :p never played this deck, but its kind cool ahah lets seewhat do you bring :D

[P-E]

Cabal Therapy> the best shell is ddft i think but i'm open to all storm variants ^^

[CabalTherapy]

My first draft would be something like this. Coming back to a classic Pact SI list with a high density on tutor spells. Petition can search for a Draw4 spell and also grab Tendrils easily. I think I will goldfish this first and see if 3 copies are enough/too much. Due to more tutor spells, I guess this deck can go down to 3 kill conditions again (I think I played 5/6 some years ago.). Happy goldfish, guys.


4 Infernal Tutor
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Dark Petition
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin Charbelcher

4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Culling the Weak
1 Manamorphose

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wild Cantor
1 Dryad Arbor

1 Bayou

[owerbart]

My first draft would be something like this. Coming back to a classic Pact SI list with a high density on tutor spells. Petition can search for a Draw4 spell and also grab Tendrils easily. I think I will goldfish this first and see if 3 copies are enough/too much. Due to more tutor spells, I guess this deck can go down to 3 kill conditions again (I think I played 5/6 some years ago.). Happy goldfish, guys.


4 Infernal Tutor
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Dark Petition
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin Charbelcher

4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Culling the Weak
1 Manamorphose

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wild Cantor
1 Dryad Arbor

1 Bayou

How did you feel dropping the discard suite? (Didn't expect a User named CabalTherapy to drop the discards lol).

I'll agree the new tutor looks pretty sweet. Hopefully Spanish Inquisition can get a new tech to try. @Vacrix New tutor to add to the list!

[CabalTherapy]

How did you feel dropping the discard suite? (Didn't expect a User named CabalTherapy to drop the discards lol).

I'll agree the new tutor looks pretty sweet. Hopefully Spanish Inquisition can get a new tech to try. @Vacrix New tutor to add to the list!


Never played discard in SI. The versions I ran back in the days were geared towards pure speed as it should be.

[jrsthethird]

I'm back after I sold out 4 years ago. Playing on MTGO now because it's cheaper, and I can play at home anytime. I'm usually working now during tournaments anyway. Probably buy back into paper at some point but not yet. Anyway, started out with Grixis Tempo but once I thought about playing PSI again I proxied it up, goldfished a bunch, and then bought the deck.

After reading back through some of the earlier posts, I remembered that Slithermuse is so good. Singleton Past in Flames is useful, how do you guys feel about that?

I was testing with that new tutor from Origins (3BB Demonic Tutor, spell mastery - Add BBB), and it was OK. I found myself falling a mana short of IGG or PIF or Tendrils or whatever I wanted most at the time and grabbed a D4 instead, so it wasn't that great. It's good but it's at a weird price for our deck. Maybe if it were 2BB, add BB? Whatevs.

What are we playing in sideboards nowadays? I found some Lotus Bloom tech that I never tried before earlier in the thread, but I'm still really bad at boarding. I'm doing something like

4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Cabal Therapy (no discard main)
3 Tomb of Urami

Tomb finally came in useful against UBR control tonight. Didn't win because he ripped a Clique and played it when I was tapped out at 2 life from D4s, but I got him to 3 life. Carpet either got Decayed, or Team America didn't play any Islands against me (the one they did pay was Wasted the turn later.) Not sure how Bloom worked for me yet, I don't remember.

Do you usually go all-in on man-plan (Tomb, Obliterator, that 6/6 Demon for 2BB) or protection (Pact, Therapy, Duress, Grid), instead of a little of both? And how many extra mana sources? What do you side out?

(Sidenote: I'm tripping over myself on MTGO a lot too. Part of the learning curve, I guess. A few times I forgot to Ctrl+click my Infernal Tutor with LED, which was mad awkward. Also my trackpad is annoying. I'll get over this. I'm just glad to be playing this obnoxious turn 1 combo deck again!)

[jrsthethird]

Been testing a lot more recently. I realized that Tomb of Urami is TERRIBLE on MTGO. Every single blue deck that we want it against plays Karakas, which just kills it. In all my time testing with it I only attacked twice. I didn't even win that game.

I tested the D7 Burning Wish build from a while back and was not impressed. I've been pretty successful playing PSI and went in my first Legacy Daily tonight. I went 1-2 drop, despite not playing against a blue deck. I got totally hated out anyway. I started a report during the first two rounds, so here it is:

Legacy Daily 7/2/15

Business
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Slithermuse
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

// Pact Package
4 Summoner’s Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Skyshroud Cutter

// Mana
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// Lands
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

// Sideboard
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Lotus Bloom
3 Autumn’s Veil
3 Nature’s Claim
1 Empty the Warrens

Keep in mind Round 1 I’m a bit distracted because I’m impatient and started up a practice match 5 minutes before the tournament started. Of course it’s a blue deck (OmniTell), so the first game takes me some time. I didn’t take notes on it but I did power through 2 FoWs and a Spell Pierce and won the first game. I conceded the match after so I could focus on the tournament.

Round 1 - UBr Storm

(Sidenote: I’m noticing a lot of builds that look like ANT but they run PIF instead. I took a 4 year hiatus right before Innistrad came out so I don’t know how ANT developed after PIF was released. So I’m calling it UBr Storm. If there’s a different name for it correct me.)

Game 1: on the draw

I play 2 D4s turn 1, going to 5 life and drawing into a Slithermuse but no mana to cast it. Her next turn she plays a Sea, Dark Rit, Infernal Tutor, revealing a Cabal Therapy. Her blind Therapy whiffs but her second one grabs the Muse, leaving me with no business. My second turn I play out my Petals and LED for a mini-Tendrils for 10, bring me up to 15 and her to 9. Dryad Arbor comes down and smashes for a couple turns. She stalls and misses her third land drop, but she hits it on the fourth turn and combos out for a big Tendrils.

Game 2: on the play

No sideboard

Mull to 6. Turn 1 D4, pass. I’m sitting with a Pact/LED in hand and made a note that Eternal Witness would have been helpful here. I didn’t think through it any more than that so maybe not. Anyway, she plays a Fetchland for Sea, Petal, and double Therapy on her first turn. Names Tendrils blind, whiffs, but she takes 2 Summoner’s Pacts with the second one. Not her best choice.

I draw a Cabal Ritual second turn, get myself up to threshold, and go off. I didn’t write down the spell chain, but I did note that Muse + CTW + LED was boss here. Evoke trigger on stack, cast Culling, saccing the Muse, draw trigger on stack, sac LED, profit!

Game 3: on the draw

No sideboard (regretting this…kinda. ETW would have been great.)

I decide this time to write down my starting hand: 2 Contract, Bargain, LED, IT, Cabal Rit, Petal

She casts turn 1 Therapy naming Infernal Contract. Ouch. Whatever. I play IT/LED, and I realize I don’t have ETW, which was disappointing. Neither PIF nor IGG do anything, so I grab Slithermuse. She mulled to 6 and with her Therapy only had 4 cards in hand. I’m spending 4 mana to draw 4 when I usually spend 3. Whoops. I drop to 5 life after this but can’t do anything. I have 2 Moxes on B and a Dryad Arbor, and pass. He plays out her artifact mana (fearing another Muse, I assume), going down to 2 cards in hand.

The next three turns, I can’t draw anything I can play, but my hand gets stacked: drew LED, Belcher, LED. She only drew lands, since she just made land drops with the same 2 cards in hand. I hit a Pact next turn, grab an ESG giving me 4 mana to cast Belcher, drop both LEDs and fire at her. She’s at 15; I still have a Bayou in my deck but I’m able to hit her for about 30.

1-0

Round 2 - NO Elves

Game 1: on the draw

Hand - Pact, 2 Petal, Arbor, Bayou, Dark Rit, Bargain

She mulls to 6, drops a Nettle Sentinel. I rejoice, because this should be a bye. Pass turn, I go off and Tendrils for 20.

Game 2: on the draw

Sideboard: -1 Muse, +1 ETW

She mulls to 6, I mull to 5. End up keeping Tendrils, LED, Grant, Cantor, Bargain. Not much we can do with this right away but we get another card on the draw too. It’s Elves so I’m ok taking a couple turns to sculpt a hand.

She leads off with a Duress, taking the Bargain. Sucks, but I can draw into more. Then she drops a Null Rod turn 2. Somehow, after a Draw 4, I end up with Bayou, Arbor, and Cantor on board with a 7 card hand of Petal, LED, IT, 2 Cabal Rit, and Tendrils. I can either IT a Ritual and Tendrils for 16, putting him at 2, or I can IT for the other Tendrils and dump my hand for a mini Tendrils for 12, with the second in hand to rebuild. I don’t put her on a huge clock right away (she spent a Glimpse just to draw off of 1 DRS), so I figure I’m OK taking my time.

(Both lines involved saccing the Cantor, so I only have 1 power on board. Plus, she has a live DRS so she can gain block and gain back life.)

I opt for the mini with an extra Tendrils in hand, but the next turn she casts Natural Order into Ruric Thar, the Unbowed. I have never seen this beast before and I’m kinda pissed. She remains at 6 life and I hope for a prayer, but nothing comes.

Game 3: on the play

I have two choices: Dilute my deck with Nature’s Claim to attack the Null Rods, or leave it the way it is and hope for a quick kill.

I open with some terrible mess of 4 artifact mana, PIF, Pact, and Cantor. Mull. The first keepable hand is at 4 cards: Tendrils, Bargain, Cabal Rit, Petal

Turn 1 I do nothing. She has the Duress her turn and takes the Bargain. Great. I’m trying to draw into something I can manage, and she drops a DRS turn 2 into NO for Ruric Thar turn 3. I’m screwed.

(I think I realized for the first time that DRS was an Elf. So sick.)

1-1

Round 3 - Enchantress

I've played this matchup before and it's a piece of cake. The player's name was U_Mage so I was worried, but when I saw Heath --> Forest, Wild Growth, I felt great.

Game 1: on the draw

I can't win a die roll, can I? I've won game 1 both rounds before so not like it mattered that much. lol Anyway, I keep 2 Contract, Bargain, LED, DRS, Cabal Rit, Pact. Not anything from the start, but on the draw I get an extra card so I hope it turns into something useful.

She starts with a Wild Growth. I draw Dark Rit, Tendrils, Belcher, Pact while she's building up her board. She does play a GSZ, which I haven't played against in Enchantress before, but I didn't think much of it. She's got a bunch of mana and 2 Enchantress effects, so I decide to try to go off all-in on the Pact plan. My first draw 4 (B floating) gets more win conditions, the second one (G floating) gets me some Rituals and a Land Grant, but also the Dryad Arbor. I need my Bayou to start up again, but with the Arbor in hand there's no way for me to actually get it and play it. I cast two Pacts to get here so I scoop.

The other option was to crack the LED I had in play, but unfortunately I had 2 Belchers and a Tendrils in hand, so that would leave me only 1 win condition left in my deck. I also had seen about 25 cards, and I knew I had a bunch of black sources available in my deck still. I think the odds were better for me to draw into an IMS than to draw into business. Lo and behold, I drew CTW, Cabal Rit, LG, Arbor. No black, but the LED play didn't matter.

Game 2: on the play

Sideboard: -1 Muse, -1 DRS, -2 Pact, +1 ETW, +3 Nature's Claim

I'm expecting Leylines, so I expect another game where I can take my time instead of going off ASAP.

I open with LG, Bargain, Contract, IT, LED, Claim, and PIF. It was a shaky hand, but having the Nature's Claim felt good since I'm used to seeing Leylines in this matchup.

She takes a while to decide on her starting 7, but keeps it anyway. She didn't have the Leyline, but I didn't have a turn 1 play so I passed. She drops a Forest, Utopia Sprawl and passes. I draw a useless Belcher drop LED, pass. She casts GSZ turn 2 for Gaddock Teeg, and I scoop. I have no answer in my deck for that, so I scoop.

1-2

In hindsight, seeing GSZ game 1 should have made me expect Teeg out of the board and put me on the turn 1 win plan. I'm not used to playing against a lot of the more recent cards so this is something I'm going to have to learn to play around. My mulligan decisions the last match were probably wrong, which definitely led to my demise. Game 1 I could have afforded to mull once, although the odds were in my favor to draw into something useful. I have 4 win conditions main and drew 2 of them in the next 4 turns. Game 2 I should have mulled, but at the time I thought it was the right choice.

I think the most frustrating thing for me this time was that Ruric Thar exists; I had no clue such a ridiculous dork was ever printed. Also the irony that I had a well-played pre-board game against a proper blue deck for my pre-tournament practice, but then lost to two green-based decks.

Thoughts about my deck, mainly flex spots and SB:

Lotus Bloom is nice in testing, but if this meta proves to be heavy with green hatebears, Duress, Thoughtseize, or IOK would come in. Maybe a split. Deathmark is too narrow I think.

DRS is fun but I don't know if something else would add more consistency. The Bayou --> DRS play turn 1 is great (hey guys I'm playing Team America!), and usually gives us acceleration against a fetchland, but it's not always the best guy to have around. I rarely find myself needing to pact for him for B on a Mox. He's so much better than Trow though, so he definitely deserves consideration.

Tinder Wall? I've found my Cantor too good when I need B or U, so I don't think a swap is in order. I might try this instead of DRS though.

I'm gradually reading through the old posts and it was all the rage a couple years ago, but I'm not sold on PIF yet. Maybe I'm looking for it in the wrong places.

Cutter has been very useful actually and not something I'm considering dropping right now.

[Namida]

Reading your report, it seems to me you were expecting to be able to play Magic: The Gathering with this deck even though you're usually supposed to be playing Filthy Solitaire with yourself while your opponent watches.

It's kind of strange to me that you keep saying you want Empty the Warrens. You can probably make an argument for it, but at its core I think playing Summoner's Pact and Empty the Warrens together seems pretty bad because you'll have a hard time casting both cards in the same game. You're also playing a deck with basically no disruption, so you should not be playing win conditions that cannot actually win the game on the turn you cast them against decks like Storm, which can easily kill you in response to make you look foolish for thinking that putting goblins in play was going to be good enough. I might even make the same case against Elves because Turn 1 Empty the Warrens on the draw from any Storm count less than 10 still can get you killed by the Turn 3 Elves Goldfish. You're all right if Storm is above 10, but you really only play Empty because it can still have an impact on the game from Storm less than 10, right? Even if you're bringing it in as extra business, I don't think it's good enough.

Against your Enchantress opponent, in Game 2 I probably would have opted to be on the draw because you benefit heavily from the extra card and Enchantress isn't known for having Turn 1 plays that matter against you. You got punished for letting yourself believe there is any good reason to deviate from the "Kill them Turn 1" plan against nonblue decks; you should never keep a seven card hand that does nothing on Turn 1, even if you are playing against an actual goldfish with "Bye" scribbled on its forehead. I can understand thinking you had time because you didn't know about Teeg, but the fact that you *are* playing Empty the Warrens giving you "Combo and find a Nature's Claim along the way" or "Make Goblins" as legitimate Turn 1 plays makes me pretty sure that you should be going to six instead of deciding that your best play was to pass the turn.

If I recall, the main purpose of Tomb of Urami was to be permanent mana. Being able to make it into a threat was secondary to being able to actually cast your interactive spells against blue decks. In this way, I think Lotus Bloom serves a similar purpose and it's probably good that you weren't playing both in your sideboard.

I think other players came to the same conclusion you did about Past in Flames because IGG is faster since it can use LED mana. I don't like Tinder Wall so much because I don't think you should be playing any red cards in the deck at all.

[jrsthethird]

Reading your report, it seems to me you were expecting to be able to play Magic: The Gathering with this deck even though you're usually supposed to be playing Filthy Solitaire with yourself while your opponent watches.

Good point. Going from an interactive game against blue before the tournament into no blue decks may have gotten to my head.


Against your Enchantress opponent, in Game 2 I probably would have opted to be on the draw because you benefit heavily from the extra card and Enchantress isn't known for having Turn 1 plays that matter against you. You got punished for letting yourself believe there is any good reason to deviate from the "Kill them Turn 1" plan against nonblue decks; you should never keep a seven card hand that does nothing on Turn 1, even if you are playing against an actual goldfish with "Bye" scribbled on its forehead. I can understand thinking you had time because you didn't know about Teeg, but the fact that you *are* playing Empty the Warrens giving you "Combo and find a Nature's Claim along the way" or "Make Goblins" as legitimate Turn 1 plays makes me pretty sure that you should be going to six instead of deciding that your best play was to pass the turn.

I need to remember that there are some times it's better to be on the draw.


If I recall, the main purpose of Tomb of Urami was to be permanent mana. Being able to make it into a threat was secondary to being able to actually cast your interactive spells against blue decks. In this way, I think Lotus Bloom serves a similar purpose and it's probably good that you weren't playing both in your sideboard.

True. The other thing that lost me games with it was the nonbo with Belcher.

[jrsthethird]

1 mana too much...but wouldn't this guy just be perfect for the man-plan?

http://media.wizards.com/2015/origins_askdf9aj2399v/en_WTRDJp10IL.png

[DarthVicious]

Dark Deal...

Testing a version that uses swamps. I will soon be testing a list that incorporates the Black Wheel also.

Swamps work out fine. Dark Deal did not.

[CabalTherapy]

So, after some years I finally played some SI today using this list:

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Dark Petition
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin Charbelcher

4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Culling the Weak
1 Manamorphose
1 Skyshroud Cutter

1 Odious Trow (I don't have Shaman, and I don't give a f*ck)
1 Wild Cantor
1 Dryad Arbor

1 Bayou

SB:
3 Emtpy the Warrens
3 Pact of Negation
3 Unmask
1 Past in Flames
2 Contagion
(only brought 12 cards/ didn't think about the SB)

I switched from 3 Dark Petition to 2 because of some cluncy goldfish I had and went for the 3rd Tendrils. I think I will try -1 Tendrils and +1 Emtpy main.
Nonetheless, it was only a test group for fun not a torunament today but I had fun playing this pile again. Ah, and I went down to only 3 ESG and included a Cutter who was very nice in goldfish games and proved itself to be worth a slot in my type of approach to Pact SI.

2:1 Affinity
I fizzle after playing Infernal Contract and he has the kill with 2 Plating and a flyer. No boarding here. I manage to go through the turn 1 kill on the play with some Draw 4 spells into Infernal > Tendrils. The third game was rough. He plays Chalice on 1. I play 2 Chrome Mox, Dryad Arbor (played turn1) and Cabal Ritual > Charbelcher turn 2 and turn 3 for lethal activation.

2:0 Grixis Delver
Weird game because he takes mulligan on 4 I believe to find a Force but I have a turn 2 or something like that. I think I brought some EtW cutting the Pacts. The second game was also pretty weird. Apperently, he doesn't have counterspells but a Delver and some cantrips but fails to find a Force. I go for it and find a way to win involving IGG for Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual and Dark Petition for Tendrils.

Elves 2:0
Well, nothing much to say here. He cast GSZ in the first game and a Shaman in the second I believe. I have the combo two times.

UR OmniTell 1:2
I win because of no FoW with a lethal Belcher activation on turn 2. He then has enough counterspells in game 2 and a fast kill and protection in game 3. I think I brought PoN cutting here and there.

As already said, the SB was not really figured out. Main was solid although I don't know if the first EtW is better than the 3rd ToA. It feels that EtW can be huge game1 if there aren't Pacts involved. It'd be a similar appoach like TES or ANT which like to play EtW from the hand. Still thinking that IGG is better than PiF main because of the easy loop and its colour.

+ big thanks to JPA, Andy, Meffeo and Yoni for a nice afternoon
+ jumping in the pool
+ big, hot burger
+/- SI being better than ANT in test games...

[meffeo]

2 Dark Petition

So you believe that DP's the only shell in which DP could "take place"?

[CabalTherapy]

So you believe that DP's the only shell in which DP could "take place"?

I don't know exactly what you mean here but Dark Petition proved to be a good addition to this deck. It certainly lowers the fizzle rate.

[DarthVicious]

I haven't ran IGG in this deck in a long time. It wouldn't fit well into the list I've been testing, anyway.

How does Pact of Negation out of the sideboard work for you? Speaking with several blue players about it afterwards, they mentioned it is the scariest protection a storm deck can run. I think it's only because it's a surprise, but it still works. It's certainly in my board. A good question is what else to run...


Autumn's Veil
Defense Grid
Silence
Orim's Chant
City of Solitude
Dosan, the Falling Leaf


I guess they are options... Free options I find are better than spending precious mana, especially when starting the chain, but those options with mana costs are sweet protection.

I'm not sold on Dark Petition myself, but I'm not going to tell anyone else what to run in their storm deck. It becomes a Demonic Tutor with spell mastery met... but in my opinion we should really be winning the game right then if we spend five mana on one spell (e.g. Ad Nauseam). Regardless I will be curious to see how your testing goes.


On another note, and this should come as a shock to noone, I foresee everyone playing as a storm deck soon. Decks with Young Pyromancer/Monastery Mentor... chaining cantrips together... it's like everyone is playing EtW. Hell, they're even running Grapeshot in Omni-Tell. Soon, Chalice will be all over the place to keep people honest. That, I believe, is what we need to plan for.

[jrsthethird]

On another note, and this should come as a shock to noone, I foresee everyone playing as a storm deck soon. Decks with Young Pyromancer/Monastery Mentor... chaining cantrips together... it's like everyone is playing EtW. Hell, they're even running Grapeshot in Omni-Tell. Soon, Chalice will be all over the place to keep people honest. That, I believe, is what we need to plan for.

This. I picked up a single Abrupt Decay for the sideboard for this reason. Two mana is a bit steep, but it handles every piece of conceivable hate (except Leyline).

I had this crazy idea of running the Carpet/protection plan in the main deck, and the Culling/Pact package in the sideboard. It's been ok so far, I do need to test it more though. Matches against blue decks are obviously great. When 70-80% of the meta runs Island, I think it might be worth it to prepare for that.

Matches against non-blue suffer a little, though. It slows us down game 1, but game 2/3 we pick up the speed again with the Pact package. The thing is, we get more speed, but they get to side in their storm hate. It doesn't always stop us, but when it does it's embarrassing.

So I've been trying to come up with a diverse sideboard package to answer hate. I was running a couple Deathmarks, and I was playing against R/w Goblins, so I sided them in, expecting Canonist or Thalia. I think I won game 1, but I remember game 2 I went for turn 1 Belcher, pass turn. I had mana to activate next turn, but still had a land in the deck so it wasn't a guarantee. He drops Pithing Needle, and I'm sad because my deck doesn't have an answer to it. I can't draw into anything and get killed by the team. The next game, I mull to 6 and keep a hand with Deathmark, and I'm stuck with an uncastable card in my hand with Infernal Tutor. Doesn't get there.

I was thinking about trying a sideboard package of

Deathmark - Thalia, Teeg, Ruric Thar, Canonist, Eidolon of Rhetoric, etc.
Nature's Claim - Chalice (at 0 or 2), Needle, Null Rod, Revoker, Counterbalance, Canonist, Leyline, Rule of Law, etc.
Abrupt Decay - Everything except Leyline

Or maybe we just say fuck it and pay two mana for 3/4 Decays and call it a day?

[TheG]

Hi everyone! i'm testing a personal revision of the old tallman build, can you give me some advice?

Starters
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
3 Land Grant
1 Bayou
Acceleration
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Culling the Weak
Fodder
4 Ornithopter
4 Shield Sphere
Business
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
3 Dark Petition
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ill-Gotten Gains

The Mox Opals are working perfectly till now, and with the new legend rule i can keep the untapped one gaining always an extra mana.

[Final Fortune]

Land Grant doesn't make a lot of sense in the Tallmen lists over the Black Artifact Land, Goblen Charbelcher isn't a good enough reason to give your opponent free Gitaxian Probes and turn all of his counter spells into Stifle.

[bjholmes3]

Where can I find that experimental D7 build? I've always had a great love for this deck, and I wanna test the apparently fastest edition.

[jrsthethird]

Where can I find that experimental D7 build? I've always had a great love for this deck, and I wanna test the apparently fastest edition.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18190-Deck-Spanish-Inquisition-%28B-x-Storm-Combo%29&p=604753&highlight=direlemming#post604753

[bjholmes3]

I've been goldfishing several hundred games with a fairly stock PSI list and, despite its age and volatility, I've grown very fond of it. I've been trying to improve it (imo this means more Turn 1 wins), though, and that has not been working out so well lol. I've tried several cards and strats, hell, I've even tried a Doomsday plan with Street Wraith, Gitaxian Probe, Manamorphose, and Dark Petition, but I don't really feel like I can push this deck further.

Has anyone anyone been making any progress?

[DarthVicious]

This. I picked up a single Abrupt Decay for the sideboard for this reason. Two mana is a bit steep, but it handles every piece of conceivable hate (except Leyline).

So I've been trying to come up with a diverse sideboard package to answer hate.

Or maybe we just say fuck it and pay two mana for 3/4 Decays and call it a day?

Two mana is steep for this deck. Versatility has its cost, I guess.


Land Grant doesn't make a lot of sense in the Tallmen lists over the Black Artifact Land, Goblen Charbelcher isn't a good enough reason to give your opponent free Gitaxian Probes and turn all of his counter spells into Stifle.

This is why I stopped running Land Grant. One of this deck's greatest strengths is Surprise and Ruthless Efficiency... and Fear... Our three chief weapons are Surprise, Fear, and Ruthless Efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to... uhh... you get the idea.


Hi everyone! i'm testing a personal revision of the old tallman build, can you give me some advice?

Starters
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
3 Land Grant
1 Bayou
Acceleration
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Culling the Weak
Fodder
4 Ornithopter
4 Shield Sphere
Business
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
3 Dark Petition
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ill-Gotten Gains

The Mox Opals are working perfectly till now, and with the new legend rule i can keep the untapped one gaining always an extra mana.

Opals are sweet. I run them in mine. I discovered 6 or 7 robots was a good number to support 4 Culling and help prevent drawing multiples, but I don't even run Culling anymore myself. Also... while I normally support going old-school... I'm sure those IGG could be something else. Past in Flames comes to mind, but with IT and DP you might not need either. Too much business drags the deck down. Then again, you have Chrome Moxes, so... have at it. As long as you are consistently going off within a reasonable amount of time I wouldn't change much.


I've been goldfishing several hundred games with a fairly stock PSI list and, despite its age and volatility, I've grown very fond of it. I've been trying to improve it (imo this means more Turn 1 wins), though, and that has not been working out so well lol. I've tried several cards and strats, hell, I've even tried a Doomsday plan with Street Wraith, Gitaxian Probe, Manamorphose, and Dark Petition, but I don't really feel like I can push this deck further.

Has anyone anyone been making any progress?

I am. With a much more volatile list.

[bjholmes3]

Much more volatile? Perfect. May I see?

[DarthVicious]

Much more volatile? Perfect. May I see?

Keep trying different cards and you might find it yourself.

[owerbart]

is everyone here ditching discard? i love the deck and been testing death wish lists, but i couldn't imagine running this deck without discard.

[emidln]

is everyone here ditching discard? i love the deck and been testing death wish lists, but i couldn't imagine running this deck without discard.

I haven't actually seen anyone play this on mtgo in awhile, but the last variants that I saw played or played myself were each the SAINT variations (black belcher with SI shell, 4x Ad Naus, 4x Goblin Belcher). It's been awhile since I seriously considered SI, but I do remember that 3CMC tutors were awful. Death Wish never panned out over Burning Wish (which had color problems, but was a lot more stable). If you did play without discard, you'd likely want to adopt an approach more similar to the red builds which had multiple Empty the Warrens.

Something that I hadn't considered until now is if a list that played Pact of the Titan in addition to Summoner's Pact with 2x free creature targets might be a better way to abuse Past in Flames with Culling the Weak. I won't be testing it, but it's probably worth throwing into one of the simulators.

[Final Fortune]

No, I still run a "traditional" list with 4 Tendrils of Agony, 1 Ill Gotten Gains, 8 Kobolds, 7 Swamps and 4 Cabal Therapy, and I think Pact SI is just a gold fishing exercise.

[DarthVicious]

No, I still run a "traditional" list with 4 Tendrils of Agony, 1 Ill Gotten Gains, 8 Kobolds, 7 Swamps and 4 Cabal Therapy, and I think Pact SI is just a gold fishing exercise.

4 Tendrils is the way to go in this deck, I think. Increasing the odds of being able to go for lethal after one draw4 on turn 1 is very important for this deck.

[TheG]

hi! i want to share some my nocturnal musings:

i was playtesting my tallman mono B list when i noticed that i would prefere some more draw (=card advantage) instead of tutors thx to the redundancy of the deck.

so i started magiccards.info and .. my search finished in front of - Lich's mirror -

Pros.
1- draw 7
2- recycle used spells
3- regain 20 life to fuel bargains

Cons.
1- Situational: difficult to reach 0 life with bargains/contracts
2- Dangerous: bounce/removals are now a threat
3- non-imprintable

in order to waive the firsr con. i introduced 8 free cycler (wraiths and probes), relying to the improved consistency with draw 7s for a t1 win.

the list right now: - lich's inquistion -

STARTERS
2 Vault of Wishpers
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
-----------------------14

FODDER
3 Shield Sphere
3 Ornithopter
------------------------6
------------------------20

ACCELERATION
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling The Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-----------------------16
------------------------36

BUSINESS
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Tendrills of Agony
4 Lich's Mirror
-----------------------16
------------------------52

CYCLERS
4 Street Wraiht
4 Gitaxian Probe
------------------------8
------------------------60

what do you think about it!?

[jimmythegreek]

???
hi! i want to share some my nocturnal musings:

i was playtesting my tallman mono B list when i noticed that i would prefere some more draw (=card advantage) instead of tutors thx to the redundancy of the deck.

so i started magiccards.info and .. my search finished in front of - Lich's mirror -

Pros.
1- draw 7
2- recycle used spells
3- regain 20 life to fuel bargains

Cons.
1- Situational: difficult to reach 0 life with bargains/contracts
2- Dangerous: bounce/removals are now a threat
3- non-imprintable

in order to waive the firsr con. i introduced 8 free cycler (wraiths and probes), relying to the improved consistency with draw 7s for a t1 win.

the list right now: - lich's inquistion -

STARTERS
2 Vault of Wishpers
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
-----------------------14

FODDER
3 Shield Sphere
3 Ornithopter
------------------------6
------------------------20

ACCELERATION
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling The Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-----------------------16
------------------------36

BUSINESS
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Tendrills of Agony
4 Lich's Mirror
-----------------------16
------------------------52

CYCLERS
4 Street Wraiht
4 Gitaxian Probe
------------------------8
------------------------60

what do you think about it!?

Two days ago I literally was looking at lichs mirror and was like " maybe in inquisition", what a weird coincedance. I think im gonna give it a go atleast.

[TheG]

???

Two days ago I literally was looking at lichs mirror and was like " maybe in inquisition", what a weird coincedance. I think im gonna give it a go atleast.


Testing with Lich's mirror didn't go well, but i continued my research on ArtifactSI. Check this out.

Starters - 16
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Vault of Whispers
Acceleration - 16
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Culling the Weak
Fodder - 6
3 Ornithopter
3 Shield Sphere
CMC 3 Business - 12
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Meditate
CMC4 Business - 4
2 Slithermuse
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
CMC5 Business - 2
2 Dark Petition
WinCon - 4
4 Tendrils of Agony

From my tesitng i noticed that the deck prefers raw card advantage over the card quality, so i switched 6 of the previous 8 tutors with 6 more draw spells (Meditate and Muse). The list is far from perfect but runs well at the moment. do you have any suggestions?

[bjholmes3]

I've actually been thinking the same thing, this deck would rather have 3-4 random cards than 1 specific card.

[zachinflames]

Would Lich's Mirror not be better with Ad Nauseam (jumping slightly away from the theme here) as opposed to bargaining yourself to death + Mirror? I like the idea of building your own Memory Jar, but Necroing it seems might be more powerful and more consistent and less mana intensive.

[Manroe]

Played my PSI list at my local legacy tonight for the first time even though I've had the cards -- but not the cajones -- to play it for almost 3 years. If you go into it with the mindset of "I'll probably whiff sometimes, but thats okay" the deck can be a blast. Probably the most fun I've had playing legacy in a while.
Went 2-2 for the record, losing to miracles and painter and beating burn and 4c loam. Should've beat painter as well but double D4's didn't find me one black mana source.

[Nina]

I know there are not enough redundant pieces to make a well optimised, "finished" Spanish Inquisition deck.
But do you SI regulars have a consensus on the overall best/strongest decklist?
What would that be?

[emidln]

I know there are not enough redundant pieces to make a well optimised, "finished" Spanish Inquisition deck.
But do you SI regulars have a consensus on the overall best/strongest decklist?
What would that be?

I don't play SI as much anymore, but we much of the consistency comes down to not mulliganing. To do that, you want slightly more IMS
than SI used to play (classically, SI has 14 IMS (4 LP, 4 CMox, 4 LG, 2 Bayou)). Something on the order of 16-18 (I haven't done the math
with SI, but the ideal number based on several million games analyzed with Black Belcher (an extremely similar deck) is 17) is probably right,
which means you have to move away from Land Grant (and thus give up on Belcher mostly) or to accept Mox Opal / Pact+ESG / SSG as alternate
IMS.

Of the alternate IMS, nobody really agrees on what is the best. Mox Opal is very good, but it tends to require more robots than you would otherwise want which is around 10 (+- 1)
(and certainly more than Pact SI plays, which is 0). Pact+ESG isn't a full mana source since you really need Pact + a 7of to be an IMS (3 more Pact, 4 ESG)
so that you can Pact->Cantor and use Pact/ESG to play Cantor. SSG isn't a full mana source either (you can't start your spell chain with it), but it does turn
Cabal Ritual into a 1 mana ritual, which is almost as good as an IMS (you need 1 IMS, but additional IMS greatly increase your chances of winning up till around 3).
ESG functions in a similar way as SSG in this regard.

It's probably worth figuring out if 4 Dark Petition in SI is something you want. We experimented heavily with 4 IT, 4 Burning Wish for awhile, and Dark Petition is close a strict upgrade
to BW for SI's purposes. In that world, I'm not sure you'd actually want PiF / IGG / Ad Naus, and you wouldn't need Belcher. Maybe Dark Petition + Infernal Tutor with fetchlands and swamps
is the way forward?

[DarthVicious]

Went to Mythic Games legacy tournament today and went a dismal 1-3-1 with my deck, but it shows promise and I understand why I lost the games I did.

First, the list... and it's ballsy. And unconventional, even for SI. Turned quite a few heads.


4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Diamond
9 Swamp
2 Lake of the Dead
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lich
4 Viridian Harvest
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot


The sideboard was irrelevant, and I will be changing it, but here it is anyway:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
//The only card I boarded in that really mattered. I believe it is necessary in this deck to combat burn and discard, either of which can completely ruin your day.
4 Chrome Mox
//My justification was to try and make the deck faster... more on that later.
4 Carpet of Flowers
//For what should be by now obvious reasons to most of you, if you've read the thread.
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Laboratory Maniac
//Alternate win conditions. Yes, this deck can easily and frequently draw an entire library. A bit unneccesary, however.


Round 1 - Miracles
I don't remember how I won game 1, but game 2 was a long drawn out battle where I nearly got there with Lake powering out multiple nonlethal Tendrils through active counter-top, until he dropped Mentor and started swinging. Game three I made twenty goblins turn 1 off a draw4.

Round 2 - Miracles... again
He surprisingly didn't drop counter-top against me, however. He told me after the game he was running Miracles... go figure. Funny part is before game 1 I mentioned how I defeated Miracles last round. He took game one by Snapcaster flashing back Counterspell against my IT after cracking LED. In hindsight I should've just passed the turn as I had a godlike amount of resources to continue casting spells over the next few turns from 2 draw4s. He took game 2 by Forcing my opening play of Carpet... and I never got started.

Round 3 - Jund
Just didn't come out of the gate fast enough... Hymn... Thoughtseize... and double Bloodbraid that gave him another Deathrite and a Liliana game 1... I lost. Game 2 I boarded Leylines in but never saw draw4s... he used his one-of Pernicious Deed to wipe my board, including the Leyline...

Round 4 - Monored Sneak Attack
Turn 1 Chalice@1 off City of Traitors I could've played around, given enough time to build land... but he won much faster than that. Game two I mulled into something that would've been ok with my initial mana source off the scry, but his turn 1 went like this: City of Traitors>Lotus Petal>Seething Song>Sneak Attack>Worldspine Wurm.

Round 5 - Playing carmates is fun when you're both out of the money...
ID'd, dropped and went to get Chinese. Second best round, after round 1.

Overall, I'm going to move the Mox Diamonds and most of the lands to the board, as they are better against slower decks. The deck needs to be faster game 1 more often than not, and I will be shifting the maindeck to that plan.

Sidenote: Here's a short list of lifegain cards I've tried/considered to run alongside Lich, in case you're getting ideas.
Children of Korlis
//It's certainly a nasty little combo, but it doesn't mesh well with the draw4s you usually need to play to set up the kill. Don't forget, you're a Storm deck, not a Lich deck. Children getting you 5 or less cards is simply not enough.
Hero's Reunion
//The other card I mainly considered over Harvest. The problem is it's 2 mana of 2 different colors, and multicolor cards in this deck really need to have black as one of the colors. Two mana is also pretty steep, even for a draw7.
Spinning Darkness
//Can only target creatures. In theory it'd be nice to use against hatebears, but chances are if the hatebear is in play, Lich isn't.
Soul Spike
//Pitching two cards is a lot, especially if both of them are black. Pitching extra Liches/Tendrils/ITs would be ok, but there is no such thing as extra rituals. Ever.
Drain Life
Soul Burn
Death Grasp
//Don't even think about it. Too much mana.

EDIT: Several people I played against (or next to) just wanted to watch me go off with the deck, so I set up the perfect turn 1 hand for them to see-

Lotus Petal, Mox Opal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Swamp, Dark Ritual, Lich, Viridian Harvest - With that, you've got six storm, three floating black and you're drawing six cards, on turn 1. Granted, there are other ways to do it, but that's what I used.

[Nina]

I am familiarising myself with this deck right now, just by playing it.
To me it felt like QSI was the one i could grasp the best first, so i picked that up and have been playing it quiet much now. I'm learning ...

[Nina]

What I like about QSI is that it's very straight forward.

Lands, Moxen and Petals for initial mana sources. 16
Dark and Cabal Raitual with Culling the Weak. 12
We need some creatures, so we play the tallmen. 7
And for Draw 4 we'll play Meditate in addition. 10
And then we need to kill them. 3 Tendrils

And filling it up.
4 Cabal Therapy to build storm and disrupt. 4
And because this is all quiet inconsistent we play Brainstorm and Ponder. 7

Nice and clean. I would actually recommend QSI for learning this deck up in the Primer.

---------------------

But (in modern times) do you think QSI is still viable? Or are the more evolved non-blue lists vastly outperforming it nowadays?

[marit]

What I like about QSI is that it's very straight forward.


But (in modern times) do you think QSI is still viable? Or are the more evolved non-blue lists vastly outperforming it nowadays?

The problem with any variation of this deck currently,is the amount of blue decks that are running around. As much as we want to pretend otherwise, miracles, shardless, and delver are not favorable matchups. I have been playing an updated land-grant SI list with mox opals, gitaxian probes, and 4 therapies main on MODO, and still have troubles with all the blue decks. I've also tried a pact list with xantid swarm main, and even post SB I lose to blue decks more often than I win. As much as I love this deck (and have been playing it since before 2009), I think that this deck is best saved for a meta similar to the survival-heavy one before it was banned. Here's my list for the interested.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
2 Bayou
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cruel Bargain
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
3 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Contract
3 Mox Opal
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Tomb of Urami
3 Tombstalker
4 Duress

[Dominic Pain]

So what do you all think of Skullwinder in place of eternal witness in a Pact list? single green makes it far easier to cast, and if we use it early enough our opponent will likely not have a card to bring back.

[GoldenCid]

Hi everybody!!
Im a little bit aoxidized in legacy and i wanna come back with a low interaction deck like this. Do you recomend me the man side plan or the proactive one?

For those who run man plan, do you side into it in every game or just blue ones?

Like the above side:

4 Swarm
4 urami
3 tombstalker
4 duress

[GoldenCid]

Hi everybody!!
Im a little bit aoxidized in legacy and i wanna come back with a low interaction deck like this. Do you recomend me the man side plan or the proactive one?

For those who run man plan, do you side into it in every game or just blue ones?

Like the above side:

4 Swarm
4 urami
3 tombstalker
4 duress

Sorry for doubleposting. I played a 4 swiss round (no top 8) with the following list reaching a 2-2. Advice is welcome!!

Lands (2)

1 bayou
1 dryad

Rituals (12)

4 D. ritual
4 C. Ritual
4 Culling the weak

Mana artifactis (11)

4 LED
4 Petal
3 Chorme mox

Creatures (8)

1 DRS
1 wild cantor
1 ornithopter
1 Skyshroud cutter
4 ESG

Tutors (8)

4 Infernal tutor
2 Dark petition
2 Summoner pact

Draw (10)

4 bargain
4 contract
2 gitaxian probe

Win (5)

4 tendrils
1 IGG

Other

4 Land grant

SB:

4 duress
4 Nature claim
3 dread of night
4 Xantid swarm

R1

Belcher (2-1)

G1: he rises with 16 goblins t1. I try to go off t1 (on the draw) and fizzle when draw into double land grant (bayou on line), tendrls and dryad.

SB: -2 culling the waeak, -1 land grant, -1 ornithipter, + 4 duress

G2: I start with land grant and duress taking warrens. He plays taiga and passes. I draw a D8 and go off with igg loop.

G3: i reset my main board (i dont know if its ok). He goes for 12 gobbos t1. I wait one turn to increased my chance of going off and win next turn just cast petal (2xDR, 1 D8, 1 IT, 1 LED, 1 land grant, 1 tendrils in hand).
He pushes with 14. I draw cabal ritual and gg.

RUG (0-2)

G1 and G2 similar. FoW + Pierce + stifle...no way.

SB: +3 swarm +4 duress -2 Land grant -2 Culling the weak -1 thopter -1 igg -1 tendrils


BUG :frown: (0-2)

Similar above.

D and T (2-0)

G1: he goes with vial, pass. I play land grant and kept bayou in hand. He plays stoneforge pass. I go off with igg loop.

SB: +3 dread of night + 3 natures claim -1 tendril -1 land grant - 2 culling - 1 ornithop-1 chorome mox

G2: he drops mother (no leyline) pass. I cast petal and pass. Then thalia comes in. T2 bayou + petal for DoN.
2 turns after go off for lethal.

Funny.

Any comment specially on sideboarding very very welcome and needed!!

[Dominic Pain]

how were the double petitions, ornithopter, and only 2 pacts? congrats on the wins, tho! I'm always excited to see someone playing a little si

[Dominic Pain]

SB:

4 duress
4 Nature claim
3 dread of night
4 Xantid swarm


I'm assuming the dread of nights are a meta call? but I don't really think they are necessary, d&t isn't actually a bad match up at all. they don't run any turn 1 play we care about so as long as you go off before Thalia you should be solid.

[GoldenCid]

I'm assuming the dread of nights are a meta call? but I don't really think they are necessary, d&t isn't actually a bad match up at all. they don't run any turn 1 play we care about so as long as you go off before Thalia you should be solid.

Yep, it's a meta call....unfortunately im not having the t1 combo rate i wish...so thalia gets on line most of times so...

What woul you run in those slots?


how were the double petitions, ornithopter, and only 2 pacts? congrats on the wins, tho! I'm always excited to see someone playing a little si

Thx!

Yeah, i was a suboptimal list...now i rised to 3 pacts and no thopter. DP was sometimes awesome and sometimes a little expensive t explode. Now im testng with 1 dp and 1 dark deal. Lets see...

[Dominic Pain]

Yeah, i was a suboptimal list...now i rised to 3 pacts and no thopter. DP was sometimes awesome and sometimes a little expensive t explode. Now im testng with 1 dp and 1 dark deal. Lets see...

Dark Deal was talked about earlier in the thread, it's not efficient enough for our deck. the cards in your hand will generally be spells you want to cast, so it ends up being like, discard 1-3 draw 0-2 which is way too inefficient, I'd play Diabolic Intent over it any day. I can't help you very much with the sideboard as Ive strayed into a wish board for my build but ive stolen a few wins with Tomb of Urami

[Ricardio]

Dark Deal was talked about earlier in the thread, it's not efficient enough for our deck. the cards in your hand will generally be spells you want to cast, so it ends up being like, discard 1-3 draw 0-2 which is way too inefficient, I'd play Diabolic Intent over it any day. I can't help you very much with the sideboard as Ive strayed into a wish board for my build but ive stolen a few wins with Tomb of Urami

Tombstalker is a classic. "Nothing beats a classic." - Jason Statham, The Expendables

[GoldenCid]

Dark Deal was talked about earlier in the thread, it's not efficient enough for our deck. the cards in your hand will generally be spells you want to cast, so it ends up being like, discard 1-3 draw 0-2 which is way too inefficient, I'd play Diabolic Intent over it any day. I can't help you very much with the sideboard as Ive strayed into a wish board for my build but ive stolen a few wins with Tomb of Urami

Thx you all for the support.

Maybe you are right about deal...the thing i that running 4 culling and just (updated list) 5 "casteable" creatures (2 DRS, 1 cantor, 1 cutter and dryad) it is hard to hit 2 of them for tutoring and / or ramping. But ill try it for sure.

What do you think about Dark petition? Does it worth i cutted it from 2 to just 1.

And for man plan post side i ll try it ...but im not sure whether or not bring it in.
I think that decks with stp will side them out and a stalker turn 1 is a goal for us! but what about blue?

[Dominic Pain]

I LOVE Petition in SI, but it's probably too expensive as anything but a 1-of. The man-plan, as far as I've used it, only ever comes in against U.dec against anything else I don't even bother sideboarding. As for Stalker vs. Urami, Urami is legendary, stalker gets hit by counters, and both die to swords so it's up to you as to which you prefer

[GoldenCid]

I LOVE Petition in SI, but it's probably too expensive as anything but a 1-of. The man-plan, as far as I've used it, only ever comes in against U.dec against anything else I don't even bother sideboarding. As for Stalker vs. Urami, Urami is legendary, stalker gets hit by counters, and both die to swords so it's up to you as to which you prefer

Thx a lot for your feedback.

Yes, i run just 1 dark petiton plus the recently suggested diabolic intent (see list below).
Man plan also eats leyline hate...so maybe, since i dont have anti enchant hate, i side it in against dead and taxes.

Here is the list:

8 D8
1 Diabolic intent
1 D. petition
4 infernal tutor
3 summoner pact

4 tendrils
1 igg

4 esg
4 petal
4 chrome mox
4 land grant

4 D. ritual
4 C. ritual
4 Culling

1 bayou
1 arbor

2 DRS
1 wild cantor
1 S. cutter

Side:

4 urami
3 stalker
4 duress
4 swarm

[DarthVicious]

Currently testing a version with twenty land.

I know... I know... but bear with me here.

Also, Lich is gone. It really needs a deck designed around it... and we all know how those decks turn out.

*cough* Nourishing *cough*

[Dominic Pain]

Twenty lands seems excessive but if it works, good on ya!! I've been messing around with a build with vault of whispers, mox opals, and a one of null profusion and it's been super fun. When I'm not so lazy I'll build it on mtgo and get some serious testing in

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[Idionym]

Hello everyone!

I've recently gotten back into Magic and decided the best route to go was the combo tree (Belcher/TES/ANT/Doomsday/SI) in legacy on MTGO.

I've been reading through the thread and would, from what it seems, guess that the QSI version of the deck is best right now, as it's the best against miracles.

I'm trying to put together lists for all of the decks I want to get. At the moment I only have the primer's QSI list, but I was wondering if anyone has a good QSI list for the current meta.

Also, if you guys think that SI isn't very good at the moment due to the amount of miracles and other Ux decks out there, that'd be good to know aswell so I hold off on making it and eventually get to it after something like ANT or TES.

Thanks in advance! I look forward to learning from all of you!

[Dominic Pain]

if you're already planning on building TES or ANT, SI is a solid first step. you'll want the infernal tutors, LEDs, etc anyways and you won't have to totally break the bank on all the duals/fetches just yet. as far as it's viability, I've only played PSI on mtgo and I have decent results, miracles is practically unwinnable but I still have a lot of fun playing

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[Blastoderm]

If you have a hand where you can activate belcher on turn 1 but you need to cast a pact, do you go for it? Assuming cases with 2 lands left in deck and 1 land left in deck.

[Dominic Pain]

If you have a hand where you can activate belcher on turn 1 but you need to cast a pact, do you go for it? Assuming cases with 2 lands left in deck and 1 land left in deck.
sometimes you just gotta cross your fingers and pull the trigger

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[Blastoderm]

sometimes you just gotta cross your fingers and pull the trigger

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Yea I figured. However, it's scary with 2 lands and neither being a mountain.

[Dominic Pain]

There's a few variables to consider, like how likely is your opponent to be able to interact with you if you go off next turn? Do they have lethal? But for the most part I'll usually just go for it

[Weebo]

It depends on how many permanent mana sources you have/how much mana you can make the following turn too. It's a lot less risky to fire it off if you can try again with the Pact trigger on the stack next turn.

That said, PSI is pretty much entirely high risk, high reward. Pulling the trigger on Charbelcher with lands left in the deck is probably less risky than sleeving the deck up for a tournament in the first place. I would go for it if I thought there was any chance my opponent would be able to interact with me on the following turn. I might go for it even if I didn't think they could, but that's generally a worse decision.

[Dominic Pain]

A huge portion of playing this deck is just dumb luck and actually having the cajones to sleeve it up. Identify your route to victory, be it Belcher or tendrils, and don't be afraid to adjust your plan on the go. If you know you are playing against a deck like D&T, lands, or other similar decks that won't have t1 disruption, let them take the play so you get an extra card. There's been plenty of games where I'll mull to 5 or 6, scry, and pass my first turn just to go off with that extra card.

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[Blastoderm]

A huge portion of playing this deck is just dumb luck and actually having the cajones to sleeve it up. Identify your route to victory, be it Belcher or tendrils, and don't be afraid to adjust your plan on the go. If you know you are playing against a deck like D&T, lands, or other similar decks that won't have t1 disruption, let them take the play so you get an extra card. There's been plenty of games where I'll mull to 5 or 6, scry, and pass my first turn just to go off with that extra card.

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Thanks for the advice! Would you recommend a version with or without Summoner's Pact? Losing to a pact trigger after fizzling seems terrible.

[Dominic Pain]

I've found summoner's pact versions to be super solid and I think they've got a higher t1 %? But if you want to play a version without I'd recommend a BR version with mox opals and robots.

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[Weebo]

Thanks for the advice! Would you recommend a version with or without Summoner's Pact? Losing to a pact trigger after fizzling seems terrible.It is. Pact versions are definitely a lot more all in, which is also a downside against disruption. That said, you've probably effectively lost if you try to go off and fizzle with or without a Pact trigger to actually cost you the game. It's possible to draw Ritual → Bargain → go off a second time, but it's less likely to happen or succeed than going off from a full hand. You also run into scenarios where you can no longer draw 4 because of life total, unless your first attempt let you play a nonlethal Tendrils to recoup some of the lost life. The Pact versions are more all in, but it's not like any build of this deck is particularly well suited to grinding out a long game.

The real reason I like the Pact version most is that opening up a round with Pact on an empty board is a lot of fun.

[Dominic Pain]

When I get some more free time, I've been thinking about recording myself on mtgo playing decks like this, Oops!, etc, would anyone be interested in something like that?

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[Blastoderm]

When I get some more free time, I've been thinking about recording myself on mtgo playing decks like this, Oops!, etc, would anyone be interested in something like that?

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I would be!

[Dominic Pain]

Uploaded an old recording I had (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPpqFIvwsps). Only game 1, it's super rough but I'm still working on finding a decent recording software. Not sure why the quality is ass but my knowledge of this kind of thing is severly limited and I don't know how to fix it. Hopefully I can get these things worked out.

[GoldenCid]

Uploaded an old recording I had (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPpqFIvwsps). Only game 1, it's super rough but I'm still working on finding a decent recording software. Not sure why the quality is ass but my knowledge of this kind of thing is severly limited and I don't know how to fix it. Hopefully I can get these things worked out.

Freaking awesome!

That slittermuse was huge!

[jimmythegreek]

Petal, petal, c.rit, wild cantor, chrome mox, cruel bargain and infernal contract.
There's a few lines with this hand and I'm wondering how an experienced inquisitioner's would proceed. Against blue decks, on the play, does it make sense to try to go less all in and bait out a counter with a draw four and save resources? I'm still a little confused about and when to go all in with this deck. Regardless, this deck is awesome as fuck and I'm planning on taking it to scg Worcester. All comments are appreciated and long live odious trow.

Ps I'm on the standard pact version.

[Silent Requiem]

Used to play PSI waaaaaay back when. Now that Miracles is gone, is this a reasonable storm choice for an unknown meta, or would I be better off with something more conventional, like ANT or Belcher?

Is there a consensus on what a modern PSI list looks like?

[jimmythegreek]

[QUOTE=Silent Requiem;1008595]Used to play PSI waaaaaay back when. Now that Miracles is gone, is this a reasonable storm choice for an unknown meta, or would I be better off with something more conventional, like ANT or Belcher?

Is there a consensus on what a modern PSI list looks like
Skull winder seems to be making its way into the psi lists, is it better than our other pact targets though?