[Deck] Spanish Inquisition (B/x Storm Combo)

[mistercakes]

i've been goldfishing the list that went 5-0 on mtgo a few weeks ago and it's quite fun. i played belcher at my last weekly and went 3-1, so i think it's fine to play spanish. you still have to be okay with losing to counters! also there's a lot of lightning bolts going around, so be careful with that as well.

[Silent Requiem]

i've been goldfishing the list that went 5-0 on mtgo a few weeks ago and it's quite fun. i played belcher at my last weekly and went 3-1, so i think it's fine to play spanish. you still have to be okay with losing to counters! also there's a lot of lightning bolts going around, so be careful with that as well.

That's good to hear. For whatever reason, I've never really got on with ANT. I'm just strugging to choose between Recross the Paths Belcher or PSI. I suppose it really comes down to whether I want black or red to go with my green. :laugh:

[mistercakes]

up to you. belcher is likely the more consistent deck but you won't get turn 1 kills as much. i haven't played recross version, it does interest me as a doomsday player, but haven't played it.

SI is a better turn 1 deck. it can also mulligan to 3 or 4....i guess it can mulligan to 2 on the draw and still potentially win on turn 1 (DR, draw4, mana source)

when i played belcher i ran blood moons in the sb which felt pretty strong in this meta. SI can't really do that. it also comes down to preference. there's certainly a lot more decisioning when it comes down to SI vs Belcher, i wouldn't necessarily define that as skill. there's still a lot of skill in playing some belcher hands out and mulligan decisions can be more complex depending on the matchup (although you don't have to and can just say f it)

[Silent Requiem]

Very interesting observations, thank you.

[Silent Requiem]

After messing about with both decks, I found I much preferred PSI to Belcher. It's just more fun. I'm currently putting together the following list to try taking to local events while I ease myself back into Legacy.

1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain

1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

This is essentially the list from the primer swapping Eternal Witness for Empty the Warrens and Slithermuse for Ill-Gotten Gains. I have messed with the ToA to Belcher ratio somewhat due to the discussion on this point around pages 30-36.

My question, though, is about sideboarding. This is the sideboard I'm considering.

4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Duress
1 Forest
3 Empty the Warrens
3 ???

The Forest is because I don't have a Taiga and want a basic land for the grind game.

My basic plan is to -4 Pact, -4 Culling, -1 Arbor for +4 Carpet, +4 Duress, +1 Forest against anything blue. I also have -3 Belcher, +3 EtW for anyone running Leyline of Sanctity or Pithing Needle. Against anything else, I'm just going to try and race the hate.

Is this a reasonable plan? And is there anything useful I could be doing with those three spare slots?

[jimmythegreek]

Seems like (at least when i play the deck) slithermuse is an all-star, being able to tutor for it on the play is so satisfying. Also, quite often you will natural tendrils through draw fours, maybe up you toa to at least two. Just my 2 cents.

[mistercakes]

i'd recommend lowering the number of belchers to either 2 or 1. sometimes you can be dependent on using chrome mox and belcher doesn't provide anything. also hands with multiple belchers are quite poor.

i'm not sure that the maindeck empty the warrens is a good idea. a lot of times you will need the pact to generate mana, and you won't be able to attack the following turn because you'll be dead.

there's a list that went 5-0 a few weeks ago which ran a sb of

leyline of the void
carpet
lotus bloom
and 3 autumn's veil.

my guess is that carpet, bloom, veil came in for all the pact related cards and just decided to overwhelm the opponent. leyline is probably a nod to all the storm and reanimator on modo. if you're going to play leyline then you might want to also include a helm of obedience and/or play more ill-gotten gains.

[Xod]

Bought into the deck (still waiting for all the pieces to arrive), the latest 5-0 deck online.

I understand that Skullwinder is easier to cast than E.Witness, but letting the opponent get a counter back from the grave is a huge downside for me (unless you are playing with the Leylines of the void), so I might switch that with E.Witness.

I like the Dark Petition als tutor #5, don't know if it is exactly necessary though.

Is Lone Wolf still interesting? As extra, recurrable fodder if you don't go off that turn, or with therapy's from the side. (although if you need to pact the wolf, there might not be an extra turn :-)

In the side I was thinking about:
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Autumn of Veil
4 Thoughtseize/Duress/Unmask

Maybe changing the bloom's for 4 Xantid Swarms, against the bluedecks, although against control decks I see the plus side of the blooms.

Or maybe extra discard, I think for the cost of 1 card for Unmask (can discard a DRS and extras can be pitched to Chrome Mox), a free discard and secure feeling against counters might be worth it.

I'm also very willingly to play the man plan, but how good is Tomb of Urami in a field full of decays, fatal push and STP's? But you should assume they will board those cards out in game 2, but you never know. At least it is 'counterfree' (except against stifle) to activate it, assuming you don't drop it too soon ;-)

[Silent Requiem]

i'd recommend lowering the number of belchers to either 2 or 1. sometimes you can be dependent on using chrome mox and belcher doesn't provide anything. also hands with multiple belchers are quite poor.

i'm not sure that the maindeck empty the warrens is a good idea. a lot of times you will need the pact to generate mana, and you won't be able to attack the following turn because you'll be dead.

there's a list that went 5-0 a few weeks ago which ran a sb of

leyline of the void
carpet
lotus bloom
and 3 autumn's veil.

my guess is that carpet, bloom, veil came in for all the pact related cards and just decided to overwhelm the opponent. leyline is probably a nod to all the storm and reanimator on modo. if you're going to play leyline then you might want to also include a helm of obedience and/or play more ill-gotten gains.

I'm now recording all my goldfishing (starting hands and kill cards), and EtW never shows up, so I agree that it's a sideboard card for certain matchups.

Leylines in the side are very interesting; we mull so well that we can probably mull for them more aggressively than many other decks. I'll have to see how my meta shakes out, though, before deciding whether they make the cut.

[Karhumies]

Which build of the deck would you recommend to a Legacy veteran new to SI? The 5-0 MTGO list with 4 Pacts? I feel like the deck is in a good place for small FLGS tournaments now in the topless meta.

[Silent Requiem]

Which build of the deck would you recommend to a Legacy veteran new to SI? The 5-0 MTGO list with 4 Pacts? I feel like the deck is in a good place for small FLGS tournaments now in the topless meta.

PSI is pretty well established but for 3-4 slots. These are used for culling targets (DRS, Skyshroud, Wild Cantor, etc), Infernal tutor targets (EtW, Slithermuse, IGG, etc) and utility slots (Manamorphose, Eternal Witness, etc). Play the ones that work for you.

That said, I have considered -2 ToA, +2 Dark Petition. The number of times that I see ToA in my opening hand and wish it was a business spell...

[Karhumies]

PSI is pretty well established but for 3-4 slots. These are used for culling targets (DRS, Skyshroud, Wild Cantor, etc), Infernal tutor targets (EtW, Slithermuse, IGG, etc) and utility slots (Manamorphose, Eternal Witness, etc). Play the ones that work for you.

That said, I have considered -2 ToA, +2 Dark Petition. The number of times that I see ToA in my opening hand and wish it was a business spell...

Thanks! Based on a few hours of goldfishing, I think the following has been relatively easily approachable for a newbie like me:
1 ToA
2 Belcher
1 EtW
Thinking if I could fit 1 more Belcher/EtW into the MD somehow. This would save me 1 SB slot.

1 PiF
0 IGG
1 Slithermuse
0 Dark Petition
DP seems awful in my test opening hands because it requires 5 mana and 2 instants/sorceries in gy. I would rather just get to 4 mana and drop Belcher or cast EtW "blindly" in g1. Or spend 4 mana for PiF and start re-casting Dark Rituals. Or just hard cast Slithermuse "blindly".

0 Witness
0 Skullwinder
0 Manamorphose
0 Skyshroud (NOTE: Have not done any goldfishing with Skyshroud yet)
1 Wild Cantor
1 Tinder Wall

IMO Tinder Wall supports MD PiF better than Manamorphose due to Pacts and better than WC due to RR = +1 mana total, and increases the gy card count for Cabal Ritual better than SSG. Also having an additional CtW target castable with ESG mana doesn't hurt.

Witness and Winder seem terrible in my test opening hands. I prefer being able to get rid of all cards in my hand easily (even without LED or multiple Chrome Moxes) to enable IT and Slithermuse for greater profit.


This setup has enabled me to decrease my mulligan and fizzle rate while goldfishing. Not sure how well the setup will work after sideboarding vs a live opponent, though.

[Silent Requiem]

First, you are right to think that every pilot needs to tune his deck to his own particular decision tree. But let me flag up a few things.

In my opinion, it is generally wrong to have more than one of Slithermuse, Empty the Warrens, Ill-Gotten Gains, and Past in Flames in the deck. That is because these all answer the question 'what do I get with Infernal Tutor?' While each has their own strengths and weaknesses, and in any given situation one may be better than another, with limited deck space you generally can't afford more than one. And all of them are painful draw into (although IGG the least so).

Slithermuse is explosive, but unreliable. Think of every time you mull your starting seven: that could have been a Slithermuse fizzle. It also gets worse on the draw, or as the game goes on.

Empty the Warrens just wins. Unless you had to Summoner's Pact this turn.

Ill-Gotten Gains needs you to float at least one mana into it, to start off your chain again. It also only really works with Dark Rituals & LEDs in your graveyard. Hope they don't have GY hate!

Past in Flames also needs you to float at least one mana into it. It also only really works with lots of rituals in the Graveyard. Hope they don't have GY hate!

EtW aside, five is probably the correct number of kill spells. The ratio of ToA to GCB is a matter of taste. ToA can be imprinted, and you can just randomly win mid-combo by drawing into it. GCB is far more awkward, but there are plenty of starting hands that you would have to mull with with ToA that just win with GCB. As you say, though, the more GCB you have in your maindeck, the more SB space you free up.

I note that you've not mentioned Odious Trow/Deathrite Shaman. Do keep in mind that being able to Pact for black to imprint is very useful. Especially if you are running GCB heavy, as you will have fewer 'dead' spells to imprint with.

[Karhumies]

...

I note that you've not mentioned Odious Trow/Deathrite Shaman. Do keep in mind that being able to Pact for black to imprint is very useful. Especially if you are running GCB heavy, as you will have fewer 'dead' spells to imprint with.


Thanks for the input!

1) I have not tested Skyshroud exactly because I don't believe it's worth running compared to WC, Tinder Wall and DRS. Storm count +1 with +5 life is negative for ToA math unless you have CtW to exploit it, and even then saving 1 green mana is very marginal corner case.

2) I used a mtgtop8 deck list as the basis, which had 1 IGG + 1 Slithermuse. I thought that 1 Slithermuse + 1 PiF was slightly "less clunky" than that, and would not allow the opponent to recover their used Spell Pierce / Daze / Surgical (some lines of play where we cast Land Grant can open us up for Surgical, especially if the opponent has more cards to board out than in for the MU -> Surgical in). It didn't cross my mind that I could only run only one card out of the three, and replace the second one with ToA/GCB/EtW. In this case, Slithermuse is the one to cut due to being the most conditional on t2+ and being off-color in addition to that. I guess I should goldfish a list without Slithermuse next.

3) Yes, I have been playing with DRS. Bayou, DRS, go is a potential T1 opening play. Potentially I get to exile opposing fetchland for mana before casting CtW to go off. Pacting DRS to imprint black to Chrome Mox is also a nice option or line of play.

[Karhumies]

Did a bunch of goldfishing with the following list, seems solid (flex slots in bold):

Sorcery (21)
4x Cruel Bargain
1x Dark Petition
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Infernal Contract
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Land Grant
2x Tendrils of Agony

Creature (7)
1x Deathrite Shaman
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Tinder Wall
1x Wild Cantor

Instant (16)
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual
4x Summoner's Pact

Artifact (14)
4x Chrome Mox
2x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Land (2)
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor


Currently wondering about sideboard plans.

Option 1:

Sideboard (15)
4x Carpet of Flowers
2x Duress
2x Empty the Warrens
4x Lotus Bloom
1x Taiga
2x Thoughtseize

Option 2:
4x Carpet of Flowers
4x Lotus Bloom
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Helm of Obedience
2x Thoughtseize

I think I am mostly concerned about non-blue Chalice MU (Eldrazi), which is quite popular in my metagame. Carpet of Flowers doesn't really help, and I am not 100% convinced about Lotus Bloom either if they play Chalice @ 0. How bad is t1 Chalice @ 0 or 1 or t1 Thorn of Amethyst against us when we are on the draw? I get that t1 Revoker naming Belcher can be nasty. Should I dedicate some slots to artifact hate (which hate?)? Or should I just purchase more Helm of Obediences for a transitional sb? Man plan sb does not really work vs Eldrazi.


EDIT:

My thinking vs Eldrazi:

1)
For artifact hate cards, I am considering Serenity, Hurkyl's Recall or Meltdown combined with a 1of splash color land for Land Grant.

2)
Not sure if it's just better to dedicate 0 slots to the MU and hope to dodge it

3) or if I should just load the SB with cmc1 spot discard, hoping to win g1 t1 on the play, and mulligan into spot discard in g3 on the play

4) or try transitional Helm-Line, even though it does yake up a lot of slots

[Xod]

A combination of plan 2 and 3 :-)

Remember, they need to mulligan to a Chalice on turn 1 too. Which isn't always that obvious for Eldrazi.

What is everybody's thought about Unmask over TS/Duress? Against Eldrazi, you can cast it turn 1 even without going off and without exposing yourself to a wasteland, or using a petal.

OK, you 'lose' a card, but save a Mana (plus it goes through CotV on 1 :-)). And for the goldfishing I have done, the first was less worst than missing that extra mana.

[Xod]

And what is the best option against blue decks for the sideboard?

4 carpets is a no-brainer
maybe the Lotus blooms but only in grindy matchups
and what else, right now I'm shifting between autumn veil and xantid swarm. Swarm can help you over serveral turns, but can be removed and you need to wait a turn to go off. Autumn's Veil can be cast when necessary (if you keep one green open) but folds to a double counter (counters the veil and your business spell)
Of course I include some discard as well. (choice between Unmask/TS/Duress is still not sure)

But with all these awesome sideboard choices, what do you remove? I assume the following:
4 Pacts (need to go off in multiple turns probably)
4 Culling (no pacts means less flexibility to get a culling target)
1 Skullwinder/Eternal Witness (pact target)
1 IGG (more vulnerable to grave hate + opponents can recure counters)

If I need to add more, what is the following on the chopping block to board out?

Sorry for the double post.

[Karhumies]

And what is the best option against blue decks for the sideboard?

Not an experienced SI pilot, but here are my thoughts anyway:

First of all, which blue decks in particular? I think that currently a popular counter setup for tempo lists is 4 FoW, 4 Daze and 1-2 Spell Pierce main with 1-2 Flusterstorm in the sb. Midrange and grindy control lists might not be running any Dazes md to avoid bad late game topdecks. Some Mystic equipment package lists might be running 1-2 Counterspell and 0-1 Spell Snare with 2-3 Snapcaster Mage for high mana cost counter recursion.

For such a light counter density now that top is banned and CB decks are not tier 1/DTB, I feel that a good approach is to just overload them with threats: 4 Carpet, 4 Bloom is probably already more "key spells" than their list is prepared to handle due to them having so many irrelevant cards in the 75 for this MU.

What I am mostly worried about then is not U decks, it's Ub decks which combine counters with spot discard. If this buys them enough time to land a Leovold who stops our draw effects, they are probably winning the MU.


What to cut:
I would start by cutting the 4 Pacts for obvious reasons.

Then cut 1-of Pact targets which don't really progress our game plan all that much when drawn into and played naturally, especially if you plan to cut CtW as well. Namely Skyshroud, Wild Cantor, Death-Rite Shaman, Dryad Arbor, possibly even Eternal Witness. Tinder Wall can be left in because it's essentially a ritual due to +1 mana.

In magical Christmas land, you could attack with Swarm first, then use CtW on it yourself to go off in second main phase. But I don't recommend leaving the full set of CtW in since you open up yourself to 1:2 if CtW gets countered. But I could probably justify leaving a 1-of in if you have a Swarm list.

Then, cut stuff which gets randomly hosed by Surgical or other gy hate. Namely IGG, probably also PiF.

Then, if you have ToA in md with alt win cons in the side (e.g. EtW) you can swap those around since ToA needs a really high storm count which might be unfeasible and non-lethal Tendrils can be very sad panda.


What to bring in:
Extra land or 2 can help in playing grindy games and through tax counters, especially if you are cutting the Dryad Arbor.

Carpets and Blooms to overload them with our density.

EtW > ToA

Your choice of spot discard, Defense Grid/Xantid Swarm/Autumn's Veil. Personally, I like spot discard a lot because it's useful also in non-blue MUs vs. Ethersworn Canonist, Chalice of the Void, Phyrexian Revoker, Pithing Needle, etc. Veil is good if you suspect the opponent to leave in permanent hate to kill Swarm/Grid. This can happen "accidentally" if they have not enough sb cards to bring in vs storm, and they have to choose "the least horrible cards" to keep in the 60. Keeping Abrupt Decay in to destroy our LED, or keeping in 1-2of Lightning bolt to shoot in our face if we pay too much life to D4s, for example, can be a solid choice, and those can randomly hit Swarm/Grid as well.


Quote back from page 38:


Boarding against Ux control. I'll break it down conceptually to compare what I'm taking out to what I'm putting in.

-4 Culling the Weak
-4 Pact

+4 Carpet
+4 Land

In this case we board out the fast accelerants (8) for the perpetual resources (8).

-1 Dryad Arbor
-1 Skyshroud Cutter
-1 Odious Trow
-1 Wild Cantor

+4 Duress

In this case, we don't need the creatures without Culling so they come out as well. Conveiently, most of these cards are floating around the 0 or 1 mana cost (half and half) so your curve doesn't change much.

-1 Tendrils
-1 IGG

+3 Empty the Warrens

In this case you substitute 2 business for 3 business, meaning you'll be playing with an extra card in the the 60, but if EtW isn't the best business spell for this matchup you can leave the extra one out, or only substitute IGG for EtW. Either way its business for business but EtW is actually good against control while IGG/ToA are geared toward speed.


If you think of boarding like that, then you'll never forget instead of trying to remember everything to take out on a list.

Against other decks, though, its less formulaic. I'll go over that in a bit, gotta run to class.

[Silent Requiem]

I stumbled across some potential new tech, or at least, new to me.

I've been running 4 ToA, 1 GCB and I was wishing that ToA was less of a dead card. So, I tried dropping 2 ToA for 2 Dark Petition. The logic was that in your opening hand it still imprints for black, but some hands will be able to turn DP into business in a way that ToA could not. And in the late combo it's essentially ToA for +2 mana. So far so obvious.

What I had not expected was the amazing synergy with Infernal Tutor. If you can hit 5 mana, DP can fetch LED, and give you back 3 mana, which is enough to cast IT with 4 floating after cracking LED. That's perfect for Slithermuse, Empty the Warrens or ToA.

So by running a couple of DP, I'm suddenly turning on those IT that sit (nearly) dead in your hand when you have no LED available.

Has anyone else had success with Dark Petition?

[mistercakes]

1 Bayou
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Culling the Weak
2 Dark Petition
4 Dark Ritual
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Skullwinder
1 Slithermuse
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wild Cantor
1 Goblin Charbelcher

//SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Autumn's Veil
4 Lotus Bloom



i was also trying out a 2nd iggy over the charbelcher since it's a mox target and i really like the leyline + iggy interaction.

-rob

[Silent Requiem]

Since I imagine Reanimator is one of our tougher matchups (FoW, discard, fast), that's some really interesting tech. What do you take out when you side it in, and who do you bring it in for? Do you miss Belcher against blue?

And is PSI actually a competitive deck, or just a fun hobby?

Edit: I've always had a soft spot for IGG; it my first 'degenerate' combo, and I have been so sad to take it out of PSI.

[mistercakes]

Keep in mind this is mostly from that list that went 5-0. I only made some small changes.

PSI is about as competitive as Belcher. When I bring in the sb cards, the pact plan is usually sided out. (and culling)

[MinT]

On this off chance that anyone feels like reading goldfishing notes (I used the list from the bottom of last page (Initially EWit over Skullwinder, but later changed that)
The last 15ish hands I give my lines in detail.

(I'm an ANT/TES player who figured I'd pick up the cards to mess around with T1 storm, and I'm excitedly awaiting their arrival in the mail)

Despite being a bit lower than some of the advertised T1 rates, I'm optimistic that it could get there between improved choices on my part, tweaking some of the card choices, and drawing hands IRL (which usually seem to run better for me than tappedout), also all the T2s that are caused by needing to draw the scryed card are T1s on the draw obviously.



On the Play:

H1- Fizzle off a T1 D4 with B floating

H2- Fizzle off T1 D4 nothing floating (and die since pact used)

H3- T2 Belcher, T3 Active with 1 land left in deck (4 permanent mana sources, so we can repeatedly activate)

H4- Mull to 6 -> T2 Tendrils for 22

H5- T2 Tendrils lethal after fiziling T1 (pass turn T1 at 5 life though)

H6- Fizzle off a D4 no mana floating and die to pact trigger

H7- Fizzle T1 off a D4, pass at 10 life, T2 tendrils for lethal

H8- Can Belcher T1 with 39 cards in deck, and 1 land remaining, or D4 again going to 1 life, D4 puts us at 35 cards in deck, and still needing to go for belcher (pacts used so belcher needs to hit)

H9- T1 Tendrils for 20

H10- T1 Tendrils for 26

H11- T1 Tendrils for 24+ (could have IGG looped further)

H12- Mull to 6 -> T1 Tendrils for 28

H13- Mull to 6, keep a questionable 6, scry goes bad, don't get there in a reasonable time frame

H14- T1 Tendrils for 22

H15- T1 Tendrils for 30+ (could have IGG looped further)

H16- T1 Tendrils for 22

H17- Mull to 6 -> T3 Tendrils for 22 (could bluff a mana screwed noncombo deck by playing T1 Dryad Arbor, and we scried to the bottom)

H18- T2 Tendrils for 26 (contingient on a T1 wild cantor living for a turn)

H19- T1 Belcher with no lands left in deck (D4-ed down to 1 life)

H20- Mull to an all mana 5, never find buisiness

H21- Mull to 6 -> Fizzle after 2 no mana floating D4s (die because used pact)

H22- T1 Tendrils for 24

H23- T1 Tendrils for 28

H24- Mull to death

H25- Mull to death

H26- Fizzle off a D4 with BBB floating (could T2 tendrils for 14 and be left with nothing or T2 IGG to force the opp to essentially mull and have a hand of like Led, Petal, Infernal to try to recover)

H27- T1 Tendrils for 28 (Assuming slithermuse is a D7, D6 still a kill, D5 not a kill and die to pact, only slithermuse lines possible)

H28- Mull to death

H29- T3 Lethal tendrils after blanking on a T1 D4 and a T2 D4

H30- Mull to 6 -> T1 Tendrils for 22

H31- T1 Tendrils for 26

H32- Mull to 6 -> T1 Belcher and activate (41 cards in deck, 1 land left in deck, need to hit since pacts used)

H33- Go for a T2 combo, fizzle and die to pact after missing off of the D4

H34- Mull to 6 -> Miss off a D4, partially recover, can T3 Belcher+activate with no lands in deck provided dryad arbor lives a turn, 3 permanant mana source, so we can beat stifle

H35- Blank on T1 D4, blank on T2 D4, probably just dead. Could have went T1 IGG->Pass keeping Dark Rit, Cabal Rit, D4/Infernal with a Bayou in play.

H36- T2 Belcher with 1 land in deck, and 43 total cards in deck, pact used, so need to win in 1 activation (T1 D4 into D4 mostly whiffed)

H37- T1 Belcher with no lands left in deck

H38- T1 D4 whiff -> pass at 10 life -> T2 Tendrils for 32 (getting very lucky on my last D4)

H39- T1 Tendrils for 30+ (could IGG loop for more)

H40- T1 Tendrils for 28

H41- T1 D4 with BB floating, whiff and die to pact trigger

H42- T1 IGG and pass at 5 life, with 3 Black mox on board, and dark rit x2 and a D4 in hand from the IGG, T2 go down to 1 life, and tendrils for 20

H43- Keep a 6 that needs any mana off the top for the T2, whiff for like 3 draw steps with D4s and Infernals

H44- T1 tendrils for 22 (no D4, infernal->IGG loop)

H45- T1 tendrils for 22 (IGG loop off infernal again without D4s)

H46- T1 D4 whiff -> T2 tendrils for 24+ (24 is tutor chain, could IGG for more)

H47- Mull to 6, need initial mana source off the top for the T2, miss for several turns

H48- T1 Slithermuse whiff (assuming 7), pass at 5 life, and T2 tendrils for lethal, going down to 2 life

H49- T1 whiff off a D4, and die to pact trigger (skyshroud cutter would have been a win, had culling/pact/land grant, and couldn't use culling since I only get one land drop)

H50- T1 D4 whiff -> pass at 10 life -> T2 tendrils for 24 (could also belcher with no lands in deck, and 3 mana saved for next turn to play around stifle)

Thoughts: I love IGG, I need to remember to try slithermuse lines more, I probably went for D4s a couple times when I shouldnt have. D4 kinda suck, but they're a nessecary evil, D4 with 0 or 1 mana is not that likely to get there. Really makes me want to try a tutor/wish heavy T1 storm deck. I'm not sold on what I'd cut for a cutter, but culling screwed me multiple times by not having a free ceature, and already having used my land drop. I feel like a free creature is pretty important, and we can clearly storm for the extra 3 most of the time. Wild cantor was very good for stuff like ESG Cantor DarkRit, and made low mana D4s more likely to work out. 2 Tendrils feels bad, but nessecary, I rarely ever want the natural tendrils in hand, but sometimes you need to put it on a mox or whatever. Conversely, natural belcher is much better, maybe need to raise the belcher count, though I don't really love the basically 50/50 you get by belching with 1 land left in the deck T1. Eternal Witness seems weak, the pact->crack LED-> EWit for LED lines basically never got there. I wish there was a good way to turn pacts into buisiness though.

Changes: +1 Cutter, -1 Eternal Witness

H51- Mull to 6, T1 Tendrils for 20 (natural tendrils actually good here)

H52- T1 Belcher with 48 cards left in deck, 1 land left in deck, 1 permanent mana source if belch fails

H53- Mull to death

H54- Mull to 6 ->T2 belcher with 1 land and 47 cards left in deck (needs DRS to live a turn, and bayou to not get wasted, and the opponent to play a fetch for our DRS to make mana with)

H55- T1 tendrils for 22

H56- T1 Tendrils for 26

Note: Skyshroud cutter has been dead so far, and I've seen it a few time, EWit would have been dead in the same spots, but I'm not happy with cutter so far either.

H57- T1 Tendrils for 24

H58- Mull to death (cutter worse than EWit here, since I could have tried petal -> pact -> crack 2 LED for GGGBBB -> EWit back D4, and D4 with a petal up if I had EWit, though these types of lines almost always backfired for me in the first 50 hands)

H59- T1 Tendrils for 26 (assuming slithermuse D7, D6 would have fizzled and died to pacts)

H60- T1 Tendrils for 32 (assuming slithermuse D7, D6 and D5 would have made me take riskier D4 lines after the muse, rather than a deterministic IGG line, but not be dead outright)

Changes: +1 Skullwinder, -1 Cutter, let's do 1 thing at a time, use more slithermuse lines, and see if I'm doing better than the first 50 without changing anything, maybe the G vs GG will let me use it more?

H61- Whiff off T1 D4 with B floating, and brick for several turns after

H62- T1 Tendrils for 20

H63- T1 D4 whiffs, and draw nothing for several turns, could have gone T1 Belcher -> pass with a mox on the table, but would need to draw 2 more mana

H64- T1 D4 semi-whiffs, pass at 10 life, T2 tendrils for 24

H65- Mull to 5, T2 D4 with B floating whiffs, die to pact trigger

Notes: I'm liking skullwinder over witness, getting back a threshhold cabal ritual and then casting it is not unreasonable

H66- Mull to 5, T1 Tendrils for 34 (Assuming slithermuse is a D7, D6 lets you keep chaining D4s in a slightly riskier way, D5 bricks and dies to pact)

H67- Mull to 6, Brick off a T1 slithermuse D7, continue with a T2 Tendrils for 24

H68- Mull to 6, brick on a D4 (hit all mana when I already had BBBG floating), die to pact triggers

H69- brick on D4 with 7 mana floating going in, die to pact triggers (all mana again)

H70- Mull to 6, brick on second D4, pass at 5 life, but with an easy T2 tendrils to follow

H71- T1 Tendrils for 22 (assuming slithermuse D7, D6 or D5 would have resulted in taking riskier D4 lines after the slithermuse, or passing the turn with a clean T2 to follow)

H72- Mull to 6, T2 Tendrils for 20 (need to draw the scryed card, very strange line where you need to land grand and fail to find to empty hand for infernal)

H73- Mull to 6, wait for T2 and the scryed card, brick on infernals, pass T2 at 5 life, with a good chance at a T3 if we have at least 2 life to cast a D4

H74- Brick on second D4, don't get there for several turns

H75- Mull to 5, brick on T2 D4, pass T2 at 10 life, T3 Belcher + activate with 0 lands left in deck

H76- T1 brick on D4, pass at 10 life, T2 Tendrils for 26

H77- T1 brick on D4, pass at 10 life, T2 Belcher + activate with 0 land left in deck

H78- T1 Tendrils for 24

H79- D4 bricks (all mana), die to pact trigger

H80- Repeat of H79

H81- T2 Belcher with 48 cards (1 land) left in deck, pact used, so no second chances

H82- T1 D4 semi-bricks, pass at 10 life, T2 tendrils for 24 (could also belcher+activate with 0 land in deck and 3 mana for next turn if we fear stifle)

H83- Could T1 Belcher with 53 cards (2 land) left in deck, or mull to 5 -> brick on D4 and die to pact triggers

Note: Maybe I'm either being too aggressive with D4s? or not aggresive enough with mulligans? i.e. maybe I need more mana going in to D4s most of the time, so hands that go dark rit -> cabal rit -> D4 where I have like B floating and random junk like an infernal tutor and a culling in hand left over, are just not keepable? mulling something like that just seems loose though, usually they can recover for the T2 or T3, but in a real match, that's not likely to be good enough.

H84- T1 Tendrils for 24

H85- Mull to death

H86- Mull to 4, D4 bricks and die to pact

H87- Could T1 Belcher 53 cards/2 lands left in deck, or whiff on a slithermuse D7, pass at 20 life, and kill with tendrils on (D6 or D5 slithermuse would have been recoverable whiffs as well)

H88- T1 Tendrils for 40

H89- Mull to 5 -> T2 Tendrils for 20+ (Only if our T1 DRS can tap for mana off an opponant's fetch)

H90- Mull to 6 -> scry bottom, whiff on draw T2 -> hit on draw on T3 -> tendrils for 28

H91- Mull to 6, keep (need any mana, scry mox to top) -> T2 tendrils for 34

H92- T1 D4 bricks, not outright dead to pact, but not recovering any time soon

H93- Mull to 6, could T1 belcher with no mana to activate, or D4, D4 gives T1 Belcher with a mox on the table, need 2 more mana (both lands still in deck)

H94- Mull to 6, scry petal to top, T2 tendrils for 24

H95- Mull to 6, T1 tendrils for 18 (better than doing nothing since it's the only option off a bad D4 pull with mana floating), can hardcast an ESG to try to beat T3, can find the other tendrils T5 (only if we didnt hardcast ESG)

H96- T1 D4 semi-bricks, T2 tendrils for 26

H97- T1 Tendrils for 24+ (could IGG loop for more)

H98- Mull to 6, T1 D4 Brick, pass at 10 life, T2 tendrils for 22

H99- T1 Tendrils for 24

H100- 7 is maybe keepable in a real game, with T1 dryad bluffing that we are a fair deck, where dryad needs to live to T2 to tap for mana, then have an easy T2, mulling gives a keepable 6 that leads to T1 tendrils for 22, (land grant fail to find relevant here)

Notes: I wish there were a pactable target that could generate free B, right now, x2 pact for ESG + Cantor hurts

H101- T1 Tendrils for 22 (Tutor->IGG loop, no D4s)

H102- T1 Belcher + activate with 1 land left in a 51 card deck, 1 permanent mana source, no pact used, so can draw out on a whiff

Current Overpreformers:
Wild Cantor - Holy shit so much flexibility, love this as a pact target
Cabal Ritual - Yes, it sucks to have a hand with like 1 IMS, and a couple cabals and you have to mull, but once you get threshhold, cabal ritual is very good at sealing up a win
LED - Almost every easy win involves at least 1 LED, it's pretty much the card I want to see most at all times
IGG - Lets you take deterministic lines in situatuions where you really want to take deterministic lines

Current Underpreformers
D4s - These miss way too often, I might still be playing them wrong, since it is maybe not fair to expect to gain both mana and buisiness off one, but in that case, I'm a bit stuck on hands like for example: (Mox, D4, dyrad, culling, ESG, cantor, infernal) Here, we go ESG->cantor->sac for B, Dryad->Culling -> D4 with B floating (Land Grant, ESG, Cabal Rit, Mox) We've whiffed, can only get up to 4 mana, leaving 2 after infernal which is useless, and we need a couple mana topdecks to have a shot. There's no way that initial hand should be a mull, but bricks like that happen waaaaayyyy too much.
Land Grant - Obviously it is nessecary, but the 2nd-4th land grants are so bad, and we see them a lot
Skullwinder/E-wit - These are dead so often, maybe I should be taking riskier lines involving them though. I'm pretty sure these guys have won me like 2-3 games out of the first hundred, and have sat dead in my hand, or caused mulligans way more often that that (albeit often them being dead didn't matter as I had the win anway).

H103- Mull to 6 -> T1 belcher pass, 1 permanent mana source in play, mox in hand, draw the mana to activate on T3, with 52 cards in deck, 2 lands still in deck, 2 permanent mana sources in play if it fails.

H104- T1 Tendrils for 44+ (could IGG for more, casted 4 D4s, down to 1 life digging for an LED to go with a tutor I had in hand)

H105- T1 Tendrils for 24 (No D4s, Petition->IGG loop)


Note: For the next few, maybe I'll provide the hand, and my lines:

H106- Petal, LED, D4, Bayou, Belcher, Petal, Culling
Bayou -> Petal x2 -> LED -> D4 Crack LED for BBB -> (Draw ESG ESG Petition Mox) -> Pitch both ESG -> Petition for D4 and cast it -> Draw Land Grant, Petal, 2x Dark Rit -> Pass Turn at 5 life. Draw Dark Rit T2, probably dead, Draw Land grant T3, definitely dead.

H107- Cantor, D4, Culling, D4, Infernal, Pact, Petal
Petal->Pact for Dryad and cull it using B from petal -> D4 B floating (draw Mox, Land Grant, Tendrils, D4) -> Die to Pact trigger

H108- D4, 2x Culling, LED, Mox, IGG, Petition -> Mull -> D4, Slithermuse, Mox, Land Grant, Culling, Tendrils (keep, scry infernal to bottom)
Mox Tendrils -> Land Grant for Dryad -> cull dryad -> D4 B floating (draw Petal Petal Tendrils Skullwinder) -> pass turn at 10 life -> draw land grant -> grant for bayou -> pass turn (petal skullwinder cull leaves me nowhere since I can't get the U for muse, could tendrils for like 12, which is also useless) -> draw belcher -> Petal x2 -> Bayou -> Belcher -> pass -> probably not winning this game

H109- Infernal, Tendrils, 2 Cabal Rit, Dark Rit, D4, Land Grant
Grant for Bayou -> Dark Rit + 2 Cabal rit -> D4 BB floating (draw: pact, cabal, LED, DRS) -> cabal rit -> pact for ESG and pitch it (BBBG floating) -> Deathrite -> LED -> Tutor, crack LED-> Tendrils for 20

H110- 2 LED, Bayou, Skullwinder, Culling, Mox, IGG -> Mull -> Petal, LED, Dark Rit, Land Grant, Mox, Pact (keep trying to scry buisiness to the top for the T2) -> scry ESG to bottom -> Draw Culling -> Draw Mox -> probably just dead (Mulling to 5 would have been ESG, LED, 2 Culling, Cabal Rit)

H111- 2 D4, Infernal, 2 ESG, LED, Petal
Pitch ESG -> Petal -> LED -> Pitch other ESG -> Infernal crack LED for UUU (UUUG overall) -> get and evoke slithermuse (Draw: 2 Mox, IGG, Petal, Culling, Belcher, Infernal) (belcher infernal 6th and 7th if they are on 5 or 6)-> pass turn at 10 life -> draw ESG -> Mox Culling and IGG -> Petal, ESG Belcher, next turn can probably Infernal for LED (If i can play the drawn for turn), and even if not, or tutor countered, have 2 Mox on the table, and just need any mana

H112- Land Grant, Infernal, D4, DarkRit, ESG, Mox, Slithermuse
Grant for Bayou -> dark rit -> D4 (draw 2 D4, dark rit, Pact) -> mox a D4, and dark rit off it (assume we need to race, and pact for ESG before the D4 for slightly better odds on an LED) -> D4 (draw: Culling, Pact, D4, Dark Rit) -> Pact for Cantor, and cast it pitching ESG -> sac cantor for B and dark rit -> D4 -> (draw: Infernal, DRS, Petition, Land Grant) -> Die to pact triggers

H113- 2 Petal, D4, Petition, DarkRit, CabalRit, Tendrils
Petal Petal Dark Rit, Cabal rit -> Petition for LED -> D4, crack LED for BBB (draw: mox, 2 culling, land grant) -> scoop

H114- Dryad, 2 ESG, Pact, Grant, Petal, DarkRit -> Mull -> Petal, ESG, Pact, Tendrils, Infernal, Dryad -> Mull (Maybe keep and T1 dryad pass in an actual game)-> 2 Mox, LED, Cabal Rit, D4 (need 2 black cards off the top for a shot at a T3, mull) -> mull to death

H115- Petal, 2 Culling, Infernal, DRS, D4, DarkRit
Petal and dark rit -> DRS and cull it -> D4 with BB floating (draw: D4, LED, Cantor, Grant) -> Grant for Dryad and cull it (BBBBB floating)-> LED -> Tutor -> crack LED (BBBBBB floating) -> tendrils for 20 (worse to tutor chain a 2nd tutor, and lost to soft permission if they have land, better to tutor chain up to tendrils for 22, no mana left if not, since maybe they were an idiot with force if they think we're getting belcher and want to force that)

H116- Land Grant, Tendrils, D4, Mox, LED, Pact, Skullwinder (Probably realistically a mull, but let's go all in)
Grant for Bayou -> Mox tendrils -> pact for ESG -> LED -> Skullwinder -> break LED for BBB, return D4 and cast it (no cards in hand, and no mana floating) (draw: pact, D4, cabal rit, Culling) -> die horribly

Note: Hands like this are why I hate EWit/Skullwinder

H117- Infernal, ESG, DarkRit, Petal, 2 D4s, Muse
Petal -> DRit -> D4 (draw: DRS, ESG, D4, Infernal) -> ESG out a DRS -> Pass Turn -> draw Petition -> pass turn -> draw LED -> tap DRS for B using enemy's fetchland, Pitch ESG, LED -> Infernal -> break LED for BBB, D4 (draw: Tendrils, Dryad, Cabal Rit, Dark Rit) -> die horribly

H118- DRS, Pact, Belcher, Mox, Culling, Dark Rit, Infernal
Mox DRS -> Pact for Dryad -> cull dryad then DarkRit -> D4 with BBB floating (draw: Land Grant, Pact, Bayou, D4) -> Pact for ESG (already commited by using first pact)-> D4 (draw: Mox, Petal, ESG, Cabal Rit) -> Mox the Land Grant -> Pitch both ESG, Cabal Rit up to 7 -> Belcher + Activate with 0 land in deck

H119- 2 Infernal, 2 Culling, Mox, DarkRit, D4 (*maybe this type of weak D4 hand should be a mull?)
Mox an Infernal -> Dark rit -> D4 (draw: Grant, ESG, IGG, Belcher) -> grant for bayou and play it -> pass -> draw cabal rit -> cabal rit, pitch ESG -> belcher, have 2 permanent mana sources, 1 land left in deck

H120- Grant, 2 D4s, Mox, LED, Tendrils, Dark Rit
Mox tendrils -> grant for dryad -> LED -> D4, crack LED for BBB (draw: LED, D4, Cabal Rit, Tutor) -> cabal rit -> LED -> Tutor, crack LED (BBBBB floating) -> get and cast IGG for DarkRit, LED, Tutor -> DarkRit, LED, Tutor -> tendrils for 24

[Silent Requiem]

It's hard to say much when all you have is the hand number and the result. The entries with starting hands are more interesting, as are your notes. The formatting has made it really hard to follow in some places, though.

I recently played a couple of hundred hands trying to force the T1 win (on the play). I recorded my starting hands and the result, including the use of flex cards, so that I could get a sense of whether or not they were pulling their weight. So much like what you have done, but with a larger sample size.

The stats are pretty interesting. Over 100s of hands my T1 on the play win percentage was about 40%. That's lower than others have reported, but I'm back to playing MtG after several years away, so I'm admittedly rusty. I was also tuning the decklist during that time, so my win percentage towards the end of that process was somewhat higher than the overall average.

What is more interesting is the breakdown of the losses. About 30% of those losses were mulling into oblivion to try and find a T1 hand. This is not a skill related stat (assuming that I recognize all the possible lines of play of a given hand), although it will vary somewhat based on the decklist. That suggests that 70% T1 win rate is roughly the upper limit of what the deck is capable of. Interestingly, that is also pretty much the T1 win rate the most experienced pilots report.

So, taking out the T1 wins and the mulls to oblivion, that means that about 30% of my games started with something (ie, a D4) but that I failed to close the game out. While some of those are just bad luck, there is undoubtedly a skill element involved. In other words, some number of those fizzles would have been wins in the hands of another pilot.

Other observations:

1) Slithermuse. I don't like it. At best it's a new hand. Using the stats above, even assuming perfect play SM is going to cause you to fizzle 30% of the time (actually, the fizzle rate will be higher, as you can't mull with SM if you don't like the first set of seven that you see). I'd rather play EtW, IGG or PiF in this slot so I can know the outcome when I cast the spell.

2) Eternal Witness. Awesome when it works. A real albatross the rest of the time. Overall, it hurt me more that it helped. Having read this entire thread 2-3 times over the past fortnight, I can see that most of the best players dropped her before interest in the deck seemed to fizzle out.

3) Both IGG and PiF are situationally amazing. In your opening hand, or with LED in the chain, IGG is much, much better. But PiF can save your combo when you draw into it with LED still in play because even if you can't hard cast it, you can break LED to flash it back. I can't decide which one I want, but both seems really greedy.

4) Empty the Warrens is great off a short tutor chain, simply winning you the game. Unless you cast Summoner's Pact. Ugh. I had one maindeck for a while but it was like Eternal Witness, great when you tutored for it, rubbish in your opening seven or off a D4. It's probably a sideboard card that allows you to play around certain kinds of hate.

5) Simian Spirit Guide is amazing. Looking back at that 30% of fizzled games, it was almost always due to lack of mana rather than lack of business (although that happened from time to time as well, of course). Switching out Manamorphose for Simian Spirit Guide has really boosted the number of keepable hands for me, and smoothed out my combos.

6) Dropping one or two Tendrils for Dark Petition has been good. Not amazing, but good. You get to keep some number of hands that you would otherwise throw back, but occasionally draw into it mid combo without being able to make more than four mana. At that point you obviously wish it was ToA. Interestingly, it also serves a mana-fixing role, turning the green/red mana you produce black, and being +1 mana when you can fetch LED or Cabal Ritual (with Threshold).

This is what I am currently playing:

1 Ill-Gotten Gains or Past in Flames
1 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Dark Petition
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wild Cantor
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

[Xod]

Interesting observations Requiem.

Friday I'll play a local event with the deck, curious to see how it will go.
I have your list - 1 Dark petition + 1 GCB, - 2 SSG, +1 Slithermuse, +1 Skullwinder (and the IGG)

In the limited goldfishing I have done, I found Slithermuse quite good. Assuming you can't/won't tutor for an IGG/PiF, SM is for one mana more than a D4, basically at least a D5. Even if you can't go off at that time. Your hand is stacked again to go for it again for the next turn.

I'll exchange the Skullwinder for a SSG, just to try it out, because you don't want to be playing SW, except for turn 1 and against non-blue decks.

BTW, what are your thoughts exactly on Skyshroud Cutter? I love the card in general (especially together in a deck with kavu predator and false curse) but in this deck I'm not sure. Sure, it's a free creature which can be pacted, but sometimes I have trouble enough to go to Storm 9, adding 2 or 3 to that count might be difficult. (maybe I just suck at playing the deck :-)) Also, you NEED to play a land grant for that bayou or arbor (not to sacrifice before) just to activate the card. I think I summed up all the cons, but being able to search for a free sacrifice effect (+1 storm) pre board was at some moments, very appealing.

[mistercakes]

i think if you're going to play the cutter, it takes the place of skullwinder.

i've had a lot of practice with this deck (using the build i posted a few posts back) and i'm not sure i would change it much. i'm not sure how i could be sold on empty the warrens, reliably getting 4 mana with red is pretty difficult, as it requires a lotus petal or you will likely be using a summoner's pact. if you're using LED and infernal tutor, i'm pretty sure you can just try to go off instead.

i think past in flames could be pretty strong, that would be worth testing, and it would likely take the place of the IGGY spot. (i will miss the loop though)

[Silent Requiem]

Interesting observations Requiem.

Friday I'll play a local event with the deck, curious to see how it will go.
I have your list - 1 Dark petition + 1 GCB, - 2 SSG, +1 Slithermuse, +1 Skullwinder (and the IGG)

In the limited goldfishing I have done, I found Slithermuse quite good. Assuming you can't/won't tutor for an IGG/PiF, SM is for one mana more than a D4, basically at least a D5. Even if you can't go off at that time. Your hand is stacked again to go for it again for the next turn.

I'll exchange the Skullwinder for a SSG, just to try it out, because you don't want to be playing SW, except for turn 1 and against non-blue decks.

BTW, what are your thoughts exactly on Skyshroud Cutter? I love the card in general (especially together in a deck with kavu predator and false curse) but in this deck I'm not sure. Sure, it's a free creature which can be pacted, but sometimes I have trouble enough to go to Storm 9, adding 2 or 3 to that count might be difficult. (maybe I just suck at playing the deck :-)) Also, you NEED to play a land grant for that bayou or arbor (not to sacrifice before) just to activate the card. I think I summed up all the cons, but being able to search for a free sacrifice effect (+1 storm) pre board was at some moments, very appealing.

I've messed about with Young Wolf, Vine Dryad and Skyshroud Cutter, and I'm not impressed; they are just so conditional. While much more 'light weight' than Eternal Witness, it's the same sort of thing - a niche card designed to deal with a specific situation that only comes up occasionally. While play-testing may change my mind, at the moment I feel like I will get more out of improving general consistency rather than trying to have a tool for every possible situation.

Re Slithermuse: I go back and forth on him. I'll just point out that if you can tutor for a 4cc card and can pass the turn, you could just run EtW and win. That's the problem with Slithermuse - he is competing with a bunch of cards that just win. He is only the optimal play if a) you cannot pass the turn (cutting off EtW), you cannot float more than four mana (else IGG or PiF would be better), and he will draw you more than four cards (otherwise you would fetch Cruel Bargain and draw 4 with an extra mana floating). And even in that very narrow situation, he may still fail to get you there.

I took PSI to my local Legacy event, and did poorly. That's mostly me, though, as I only really started playing again last week, and I have a lot of skills to relearn that have nothing to do with my deck.

That said, I did notice how much harder it is to mulligan at an event than when goldfishing; the pressure just does something to me. I made very poor mulligan decisions throughout the day, keeping hands that I look back on and wonder what I was smoking. This is something I very much need to work on. Once I was actually in a position to go off, I tended to do just fine.

The anti-blue sideboard worked well, winning me a couple of games, but I need a lot more practice with it, and it's not something you can just goldfish.

[mistercakes]

does anyone here have interest in jamming games on cockatrice? we can just play the mirror and that way you can observe the other players lines of play?

[Xod]

so what is your current anti-blue sideboard?

I'll still thinking, but I will probably try this:

4 carpets
4 lotus bloom
4 discard/protection
2 EtW
1 Taiga

The taiga is for more resources, when cutting arbor and the pact package. Mostly against taxing decks and so you can go off more easily after running into some counters. Also helps for belcher (mountain, if it still is stuck in the deck) or to cast EtW.

The EtW is mostly against control decks but is also an out to leyline of sanctity.

Carpets need no explanation, lotus bloom again is extra resources.

Only thing I'm not 100% yet about is the discard/protection package. I like duress over thoughtseize, because that 2 life cost can be a real difference, but I can't discard hatebears with Duress (thinking teeg/thalia/revoker/aethersworn). Might still opt for the Unmask, does a package of both, at the cost of 1 card, but saves a mana. Veil is also interesting, luring counters out, or just protection the whole combo at all. But just a turn 1, bayou/petal/mox into discard --> pass, is more appealing than keeping that 1 ESG in hand or 1 green mana floating, just in case.

[Silent Requiem]

I'm running:

4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Duress
3 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Forest
1 Empty the Warrens

I'm running EtW for the same reason you are - as an out to Leyline of Sanctity. I'm not seeing any in my meta (yet) so I may drop it for something else.

The forest was initially because I don't own Taiga, but it has been absolutely amazing; it's typically what I fetch first. Having a (virtually) indestructible source of green mana to drop Carpets and Swarms has been key in several games. At this point, I wouldn't change it.

I have mixed feelings about Duress. I agree the two life makes a difference, but I could bring in Thoughtseize against other fast combo decks (I'm really jealous of SITES and their Therapy package, actually). I know 'be faster' is our thing, but on the draw we probably can't go off if they hit us with their own discard, and it would be nice to slow them down a little while we redraw our missing cards.

I've not tried Lotus Bloom, but more initial mana sources would be really nice. Something I think I need to take for a spin.

Edit: On the discard v Veil question, one thing I noticed is that we don't always have the luxury of planning our combo attempts a turn or two in advance. It could be that we rip something off the top that our opponent will force us to discard on their turn, or perhaps they tapped out for a big spell. In those cases, we sometimes need to go for it immediately, casting our protection and our business in the same turn. When that happens, Veil takes up excess green mana, while Duress competes for our precious black mana.

Even we do have control over the timing, and can lay some groundwork the turn before we go off, a good blue player will also use Brainstorm to hide key counters, or to bluff hiding key counters, whereas Veil demands an answer.

[Xod]

So following your reasoning, it seems better to play veil over discard.

The forest is indeed a nice thought.

[Silent Requiem]

So following your reasoning, it seems better to play veil over discard.

The forest is indeed a nice thought.

I wish it were that simple. Duress also imprints for black mana, which can be relevant. It has value against non-blue decks. And so on. I don't think that either one is 'strictly' better than the other.

In the end, it's going to be a meta/playstyle call. They are both really, really good cards.

[Final Fortune]

I don't like Duress at all, the whole point of Pact/ESG is to support off color disruption so you can cast your rituals unhampered. If you want discard, then you're better off with Swamps, Kobolds and Cabal Therapy.

Pact Si is a Veil deck, IMO, having to Land Grant to cast your disruption just isn't where you want to be at all.

[Karhumies]

If you are worried about Duress vs hatebears (namely Thalia 1.0 and Phrexian Revoker = Death & Taxes? Or do you have something else in mind?), I would probably just run 2-3 EtW, mulligan aggressively and make a bunch of goblins t1. Most hatebears won't enter play until t2. Even if you do t1 Thoughtseize them on the draw, chances are they could have 2 hatebears in hand, you only get rid of one of them, and you are now a sad panda.

My reasoning here is that most decks running hatebears do not run much creature sweeps. Unless they are prepared vs TNN decks (Holy Light, anyone?) and you get accidentally hit by the splash effect.

[mistercakes]

Dnt runs pontiff, although that is a bit slow. Also many run the red sweeper.

Most hate bear decks will run plains, I'd take my chances with massacre.

That being said I just ignore ore hate bear decks.

[Xod]

Like mistercakes said, sweepers are more present with all the TNN decks, so EtW against the hatebear decks won't always suffice.

Massacre could be an option, but needs land grant/bayou to activate it (open to wasteland if you play it too soon) and gets stopped by teeg. I thought I was going to play 4 veils (don't like the swarm because people with URx will probably keep lighting bolts in, or just a stray decay or push)

But I'm more afraid of our Aggro Loam player, he can play teeg/thalia from the side and maindeck CotV. Granted game 1,when he plays it on 1,we can get around it. But on a 0 it provides more of a problem (canceling our blooms, LED's, petals, pact is normally out) although I will still side the blooms in against him. That's why I might play 2 veil and 2 tomb of urami in the side. To create a broader angle of attack. At least then we have an out to teeg.

Or is it better to ignore these decks and just try to go off turn 1?

[mistercakes]

I haven't had a lot of success Vs turn 1 0cc chalice with this deck. I think it's best to just race them. You could also try nature's claim since you can cast them more easily.

[Xod]

and the best way to race them, is to keep the pact/culling part in, right?

[mistercakes]

If their only interaction is hate bears I would just race.

[Silent Requiem]

It's really good to see so much discussion on this deck again.

Looking back at my earlier post on Slithermuse, I can see that I was a little one-sided. Yes, Slithermuse is only the optimal play in a very narrow range of circumstances (Pact used, only 4 mana floating). However, it is also worth conceding that Slithermuse is also the most generally available play. So if you only want to devote one slot to a tutor target, Slithermuse is a reasonable choice. Every time you tutor for it you'll probably wish it was something else, but it will probably be a different 'something else' that you wish for each time. SM covers all the bases, albeit not optimally.

I'd also suggest that Eternal Witness becomes a lot more important if you run Slithermuse. This is because the Slithermuse hands that fizzle tend to be those that draw a load of mana and no business. Pact for Eternal Witness opens up a lot of those hands.

I was wondering, though, whether anyone has tried running Verdant Catacombs over Land Grant in PSI? I was testing another copy of Dark Petition in place of Goblin Charbelcher, and it occurred to me that if I wasn't running Belcher, why not use actual lands?

Presumably, this hurts our non-blue matchup somewhat (although not fatally, since SITES has been doing this for years). Land Grant adds storm count, can be imprinted, does no damage to us when we use it, and can sometimes allow you to get Hellbent without LED. I'm not sure how big of a deal this is, but these are certainly all advantages that LG has over VC.

However, showing a blue player our hand really, really hurts. And getting our initial mana sources countered (or discarded) really, really hurts. There are also situations where you have the 'wrong' land in hand, shutting you off from LG for the 'right' land. VC can be played out in those circumstances regardless.

I'll probably mess about with this a bit, but I would be interested to know if anyone has already gone down this road.

[Xod]

Looking back at my earlier post on Slithermuse, I can see that I was a little one-sided. Yes, Slithermuse is only the optimal play in a very narrow range of circumstances (Pact used, only 4 mana floating). However, it is also worth conceding that Slithermuse is also the most generally available play. So if you only want to devote one slot to a tutor target, Slithermuse is a reasonable choice. Every time you tutor for it you'll probably wish it was something else, but it will probably be a different 'something else' that you wish for each time. SM covers all the bases, albeit not optimally.

Yesterday I was doing a bit of goldfishing (finally got the deck sleeved up, a bit busy at the moment) think I mulled a couple of times to 5 where passing the turn and then going of on turn 2 (because the scry card was important). Althought everytime, I ended up on 2 life, very dangerous. But one time I had a couple of D4's in hand, DR, mana source, Infernal Tutor and LED. 2 option, try to pull the D4, but with LED cracking in response in the hope you can go further (risky, tried it, failed) or the other play, which I tried (left the same 4 cards on top), was LED, DR, IT --> crack LED for blue, fetch slithermuse and D7. Went off on that first turn. I think if you have the option to D4 with one mana (preferably black) backup, sure, it's better, but other than that, this line of play on the first turn is 'always' paying of. I like it.



However, showing a blue player our hand really, really hurts. And getting our initial mana sources countered (or discarded) really, really hurts. Taxing effects (Thalia, et al) on LG really, really hurts. I'll probably mess about with this a bit, but I would be interested to know if anyone has already gone down this road.
I think the main reason is that by playing belcher, the VC's are suboptimal, otherwise, be sure to try it, but like you said, the times I emptied my hand, or got that dryad Arbor (when I already played a land) for storm, thinning and activating belcher, does the trick.

So SB:
4 carpets (against all blueish decks)
4 blooms (against blue/control/taxing decks, skip them against chalice decks?)
2 EtW (against control decks or to race taxing decks)
1 forest (going to try it, instead of taiga, seems a solid choice)
2 Veil's (against counters)
2 Tomb of Urami (as an out against chalice decks? extra: veil can also protect your demon against possible blue bounce or fatal push, if they would be mad enough to keep it in)

So for example, against a UW control deck I might try:
+4 carpets, +4 bloom, +1 forest, +2 veil, +2 EtW (not against miracles..) (and if I'm kinky, and I know they remove STP, Tomb of Urami :-D)
-4 pact, -4 culling, -1 dryad Arbor, -1 DRS, -1 wild cantor, -1 IGG, -1 Tendrils

Against Aggro loam:
+2 Tomb of Urami, +1 Forest, +2 EtW
-1 IGG (lot's of gravehate), -2 pact, -2 culling

Against DnT:
+4 Blooms, +1 Forest, +2 EtW
-4 Pact, -3 Culling

Any comments?

[Silent Requiem]

I think the main reason is that by playing belcher, the VC's are suboptimal, otherwise, be sure to try it, but like you said, the times I emptied my hand, or got that dryad Arbor (when I already played a land) for storm, thinning and activating belcher, does the trick.

I should have been clearer.

I take it for granted that I would not be siding in Belchers if I am running actual lands in the deck. Between Autumn's Veil and Xantid Swarm we can still drop a series of 'must answer' bombs, and we would also be able to run Tombs as uncounterable early pressure. The exact nature of the sideboard is something that I can work on later, if the compromises in G1 prove to be acceptable.


So SB:
4 carpets (against all blueish decks)
4 blooms (against blue/control/taxing decks, skip them against chalice decks?)
2 EtW (against control decks or to race taxing decks)
1 forest (going to try it, instead of taiga, seems a solid choice)
2 Veil's (against counters)
2 Tomb of Urami (as an out against chalice decks? extra: veil can also protect your demon against possible blue bounce or fatal push, if they would be mad enough to keep it in)

So for example, against a UW control deck I might try:
+4 carpets, +4 bloom, +1 forest, +2 veil, +2 EtW (not against miracles..) (and if I'm kinky, and I know they remove STP, Tomb of Urami :-D)
-4 pact, -4 culling, -1 dryad Arbor, -1 DRS, -1 wild cantor, -1 IGG, -1 Tendrils

Against Aggro loam:
+2 Tomb of Urami, +1 Forest, +2 EtW
-1 IGG (lot's of gravehate), -2 pact, -2 culling

Against DnT:
+4 Blooms, +1 Forest, +2 EtW
-4 Pact, -3 Culling

Any comments?

I'm not sure what you DnT sideboard is trying to do. It looks like you are going to lose masses of speed against a deck that loves to drop multiple hatebears starting on turn 2.

I get that EtW and Pact are a non-bo, but surely -2 Pact +2 EtW gives you that option while not preventing you from winning in the 'traditional' way with the right opening hand.

[Xod]

I'm not sure what you DnT sideboard is trying to do. It looks like you are going to lose masses of speed against a deck that loves to drop multiple hatebears starting on turn 2.

I get that EtW and Pact are a non-bo, but surely -2 Pact +2 EtW gives you that option while not preventing you from winning in the 'traditional' way with the right opening hand.

I follow you, but the blooms can make 'sure' that you have the mana to go of against them, even through Thalia, isn't a garanty though.

Now that I think about it, you are right, -2 Pact +2 EtW is a better plan. I thought that Tomb might also be an option, since the will probably side STP out, but they still have chump blockers + flickerwisp.

On the other things, no comments? What against storm(ANT/TES)? Just keep everything the same? Since we 'should' be faster. Although carpets look appealing, especially since they have discard that can set us back. Carpets over Pact here (or a 2/2 split Pact/Culling?) to build resilience? On the other hand, the maindeck, is freakishly fast.

[Silent Requiem]

I can't comment on the Loam matchup because I've never played it. I think Carpets are wrong against storm, though.

Carpet is for playing the attrition game. They (our opponent) either gives us a ton of mana every turn, or they just try and whittle us down with Delver or something, with only one Island (and probably a bunch of fetchlands) in play. In other words, they have to go slower, or they help us go faster.

Storm, though, just doesn't care about either of those things if they are going off anyway. They will happily watch us side out acceleration and business to bring in Carpets. That allows them to focus their discard on the stuff in our hand that is actually relevant.

If you want to side something in against them, consider Past in Flames. That turns back on all the stuff they made you pitch earlier. Or Leyline of Sanctity, for the lols. Shuts off their win conditions AND their disruption.

Edit: A coincidentally relevant comment from the Belcher thread.


I see cutting the Reverent Silence, Hull Breach, Pyroclasm for other things as these are the least wished for cards and fall into niche roles. One card that has been doing well for me is Leyline of Sanctity. I have been running 3 to good results against Discard because I find it is the most common way people try and hate us out of the board.

[Karhumies]

I can't comment on the Loam matchup because I've never played it.

I have some experience playing vs Loam, but not as a Storm/SI player.

Most of the Loam decklist is completely irrelevant vs us due to our speed and lack of targets:
Dark Confidant, Life From the Loam, Knight from the Reliquary, Punishing Fire, GSZ (needs 3 mana to tutor Teeg and their accel is Mox Diamond and GSZ for Dryad Arbor only), Toxic Deluge, Liliana of the Veil, Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay.

While at the same time they have a few very powerful hoser cards in the deck list vs us:
4x Chalice (hopefully at 1 in g1, because 0 is worse)

4x Mox Diamond acceleration + hatebears:
MD/SB 1x Gaddock Teeg (typically MD)
SB 0-2x Ethersworn Canonist
SB 0-2x Containment Priest (they can bring this in vs tokens)
SB 0-3x Thalia 1.0
SB 2+ Thoughtseize, assuming they are not running MD 2+ Collective Brutality already.

Tomb of Urami is a risky move IMO because they have 4x Wasteland, 1 Karakas, 1 Maze of Ith and 4x KotR for finding the Karakas/Maze which they are likely to keep in because KotR is their best clock, Karakas is a W mana source and much of their sb is useless in the mu. They can also make a Marit Lage token to block, and they might be forced to leave a few Lilianas in because it sucks less than most of their sideboard vs us, which can accidentally kill the Urami token.

Against most Loam builds, us bringing in 4x Leyline of the Void + 1 or more Helm of Obedience would be a strong play. Teeg still hits us badly, but they are likely to run only 1 in the 75. They can tutor it up with GSZ, though. Otherwise, Empty the Warrens on the play (before they get to drop hatebears or chalice) and Goblin Charbelcher on the draw (which can get through everything except Teeg, note that Spirit Guides help vs Thalia 1.0) seem like solid plans to me. If you manage to land a Charbelcher early before their Teeg lands, even if you fizzle on the first try or lack some mana, I think their only "out" is GSZ for 1of Reclamation Sage/Qasali Pridemage, which is slow at 4 mana. Assuming they knew enough about our deck to SB in the Sage in the first place (Pridemage can be in MD, though).

[Silent Requiem]

I goldfish'd a few dozen hands last night with Verdant Catacomb in place of Land Grant. Mostly there was no difference, and a couple of times I had to work slightly harder to reach lethal storm. Only in one game did being unable to get Hellbent turn a win into a loss.

I need to actually run some tests against blue decks, though. I'm not particularly keen to drop the money needed on a playset of VC unless it has a meaningful impact on our blue matchups.

[Xod]

Good points. Dammit, that still doesn't solve my sideboard issues. :tongue:

Maybe -2 tomb +2 thoughtseize, don't know yet, willingly to test the tombs out. Mostly because they need to answer it immediately, and if they are trying to do that, we can still go off the traditional way.

Karakas/Maze is an out, but they can only tutor for it with knight or draw it naturally, and tutoring it with knight is as soon as turn 3. Which mean they will probably focus a bit more to stop the demon than to disrupt us. Which is fine I assume. Wasteland isn't an issue, since you won't drop tomb unless you have 4 mana. Liliana and Marit Lage can also stop us. But again, if they spend their first turns to stop the demon, it gives us time to actually drop belcher or go off.

But I'm probably wrong.

4 leylines and 2 iggy's is a good out :-) but then the sideboard takes a whole different turn, to adapt to decks, that we can 'normally' beat, except for aggro loam. So maybe I can ignore it. We'll see tonight if I face him :-)

[mistercakes]

You could consider running 4x grave titan and some other kinds of acceleration. Might be okay. I can try to goldfish some draws and try.

another transformation i considered was:

4 dark confidant
3 monastery mentor
1 savannah
2 bayou
3 cavern of souls
2 abrupt decay

goldfished a bunch. i'm not sure i like dark confidant so much in here. would maybe just go for a 4 mentor cavern package. maybe some cabal therapy would compliment this.

would propose the following

4 cavern of souls
1 savannah
4 monastery mentor
4 cabal therapy
2 magus of the will (or abrupt decay)

[Silent Requiem]

I've been testing my anti-blue sideboard, which is essentially the standard PSI approach to blue:

4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Forest

This has worked reasonably well against control decks, but it has been failing miserably against tempo decks. Most of the cards in this sideboard need to pair up to actually do anything - Autumn's Veil does nothing unless I can immediately follow it up with an actual threat (ie, Goblin Charbelcher). Tempo decks don't give you the time to try this more than once, and holding cards back to build up a critical mass can be especially problematic if they are also attacking your hand with discard effects.

I'm going to mess about with a traditional 'man plan', but I wondered if anyone had a sideboard plan that they liked against tempo.

[mistercakes]

you could try running 4 swarm and then that would require the tempo deck to deal with it immediately or potentially lose. you should give that mentor plan a try if you have some time. (the last one i mentioned) the 2 magus could be anything else.

[Xod]

Went 2-2 last Friday.
First match, I could start, but I had to mull to 5, passed the turn, because I needed one extra card. (had a culling package ready)
He played land, mox diamond, chalice on 1 (great, another loam player) I tried to do anything, but scooped rather quickly.
Game 2, went off turn 1 (yaay)
Game 3, he started with a thoughtseize, I could go off turn 2 or 3, he GSZ to teeg (fuck). Ok, I still had the 'demon'-plan, had 2 cabal rituals, some enough mana on the board and a IT. So I could create 6 mana --> IT --> tomb. The only thing I needed was something I could play out of my hand, normally not a problem, drew 1 of the 2 summoners pact still remaining... So I cast it to pay for it the next turn. So that single card set me back 2 turns... At that time he played a Ethersworn Cannonist, and the turn after a knight, game over...
0-1

Second match: Burn
Won 2-1, miscounted in game 2, and should have stopped the chain on time, to still go off the turn after. This is clearly lack of experience. Went 2 times off with belcher.
1-1

Match 3: Grixis Delver
Went of rather fast and he didn't have force.
game 2: he didn't play his daze agressively enough, and he fetched into islands for my carpet, big mistake, could go off easily. 2-0
2-1

Match 4: Miracles
Was actually a very tight game, but had to many counters and didn't see a veil. 0-2 was good as a learning experience. Blooms also helped here, but due too to many counters, I couldn't get through.

My sideboard:
4 carpets
4 blooms
2 veils
2 EtW
2 tomb of urami
1 forest

[Final Fortune]

I should have been clearer.

I take it for granted that I would not be siding in Belchers if I am running actual lands in the deck. Between Autumn's Veil and Xantid Swarm we can still drop a series of 'must answer' bombs, and we would also be able to run Tombs as uncounterable early pressure. The exact nature of the sideboard is something that I can work on later, if the compromises in G1 prove to be acceptable.



I'm not sure what you DnT sideboard is trying to do. It looks like you are going to lose masses of speed against a deck that loves to drop multiple hatebears starting on turn 2.

I get that EtW and Pact are a non-bo, but surely -2 Pact +2 EtW gives you that option while not preventing you from winning in the 'traditional' way with the right opening hand.

If you're going down the land route then I think you might be better off building an Ad Nauseam deck by cutting the Pacts/ESGs and Draw 4s for fetchlands, Green Sun's Zeniths, Xantid Swarms and Diabolic Intent. It's pretty neat when you can use your acceleration and disruption as the fuel for your Culling/Diabolic and the fetclands, GSZs and Swarms are all generally more useful and less all in than the Land Grants, Pacts, SSGs etc. I'm picturing a sort of BUG TES like list, which would be interesting because even tho' I think it'd probably be worse than TES the U/G and B/G fetch manabase would let you bluff Daze.

Like

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Xantid Swarm
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
14 Lands

You could even use that kind of shitty colorless Xantid Swarm or add more business and acceleration by cutting Git Probes? But yeah, if you aren't playing Belchers then lands are just better than L.Grants. Personally, I still really like the old version of the deck with 7 swamps and kobolds myself.

[Silent Requiem]

If you're going down the land route then I think you might be better off building an Ad Nauseam deck by cutting the Pacts/ESGs and Draw 4s for fetchlands, Green Sun's Zeniths, Xantid Swarms and Diabolic Intent. It's pretty neat when you can use your acceleration and disruption as the fuel for your Culling/Diabolic and the fetclands, GSZs and Swarms are all generally more useful and less all in than the Land Grants, Pacts, SSGs etc. I'm picturing a sort of BUG TES like list, which would be interesting because even tho' I think it'd probably be worse than TES the U/G and B/G fetch manabase would let you bluff Daze.

Like

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Xantid Swarm
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
14 Lands

You could even use that kind of shitty colorless Xantid Swarm or add more business and acceleration by cutting Git Probes? But yeah, if you aren't playing Belchers then lands are just better than L.Grants. Personally, I still really like the old version of the deck with 7 swamps and kobolds myself.

That looks... really, really interesting. And intimidating, because I'm not actually a terribly good innovator, and that looks like it needs a great deal of work.

My first thought is that 4 Xantid is probably wrong. Just as we run SP as a toolbox, we probably want to do the same with GSZ. So one Xantid, one Tukatounge Thallid, and possibly a Wild Cantor. And Dryad Arbor, of course.

Nothing to stop us bringing in more from the side for the U matchup, of course.

[Final Fortune]

Dryad Arbor is 1 of the 14 lands, however I disagree 100% with MD tool-boxing for Green Sun's Zenith. Xantid Swarm, regardless of removal, is the only other green creature you want in order to make all of your draws as relevant as possible. Post board, you can SB an artifact hate creature for Chalice etc. or a fatty for a man plan, but that is as far as I would go. You want to just get your Lanowar Elf turn and then hit your Culling or Intent and go off. You shouldn't need amything but Petal, Ritual, Led after Nauseam to finish ideally.

The only thing I doubt is Probe, because there is no discard but information is always useful.

I would just test what I posted first, it goes off pretty soundly on turn 2 to maybe 3. I had a really similar deck with Hermits and Tops, but I think without Top you have to play blue for consistency and the b/g Hermit/basic manabase just doesn't work with cantrips. I mean it's a bad TES, but the look on their faces when you attack with Xantid and then sac it for a T2 win lol.

[Silent Requiem]

Fair enough.

Is Veteran Explorer a thing here?

[Final Fortune]

It was, when the deck had Sensei's Diving Tops to filter it could use Veteran Explorer with Diabolic Intent, Culling the Weak and Cabal Therapy to stay in B/G and build a mana base with basic lands. After SDT was banned tho, I don't think it's possible to exlcude blue, so the Tops and Explorers became cantrips and the Cabal Therapies became Xantid Swarms to stream line the deck into a T2 protected win.

You have wiggle room if you cut Probe to experiment, a 2nd Ad Nauseam, a Chrome Mox, an Empty the Warrens etc. I all tried but the deck has been mostly for laughs.

[Xod]

BTW, isn't 1 or 2 fatal pushes or abrupt decays interesting?

Push mainly against hate bears. Decay as an out to CotV/teeg/thalia/needle on Belcher /...

[Silent Requiem]

I gave the BUG ANT deck a spin last night, and it was pretty cute. I quickly felt like I preferred Chrome Mox to Gitaxian Probe, simply to make Ad Nauseam better. It's surprising how often the deck will go off turn two under the protection of Xantid Swarm.

Still messing about with PSI sideboard, though. The ANT deck got me wondering about something similar for PSI. Instead of taking out Culling the Weak, what about -4 Culling targets, +4 Xantid Swarm, -4 Pact, +4 Veil?

In other words, leave us much of the original deck concept in place as possible. I'll do some testing and report back.


BTW, isn't 1 or 2 fatal pushes or abrupt decays interesting?

Push mainly against hate bears. Decay as an out to CotV/teeg/thalia/needle on Belcher /...

PSI is never going to be an 'answers' deck. Without blue cantrips, we can't consistently find answers quickly enough to be relevant. We are far better off just dropping threats and being very, very fast.

SI-TES, of course, can take a different approach, thanks to Burning Wish and Cabal Therapy. Note that actual TES still does plays the 'answer' game better, because it runs those same cards, AND blue cantrips, but at the cost of being a half turn slower.

[Xod]

Still not a big Xantid Swarm fan, but I'll replace the 4 blooms with swarms just to try out.

UW sideboard guide then becomes:

+4 carpets, +4 swarm, +1 forest, +2 veil, +2 EtW (not against miracles..)
-4 pact, -4 culling, -1 dryad Arbor, -1 DRS, -1 wild cantor, -1 IGG, -1 Tendrils

Your plan of keeping culling in appeals me (and sounds very logical), but what to remove then? Not putting the EtW in? Removing an extra Belcher? Removing a slithermuser or SSG?

[Silent Requiem]

Still not a big Xantid Swarm fan, but I'll replace the 4 blooms with swarms just to try out.

UW sideboard guide then becomes:

+4 carpets, +4 swarm, +1 forest, +2 veil, +2 EtW (not against miracles..)
-4 pact, -4 culling, -1 dryad Arbor, -1 DRS, -1 wild cantor, -1 IGG, -1 Tendrils

Your plan of keeping culling in appeals me (and sounds very logical), but what to remove then? Not putting the EtW in? Removing an extra Belcher? Removing a slithermuser or SSG?

The classic PSI sideboard is very carefully designed, as you would expect from Vacrix. The Carpet of Flowers gives you a ton of mana against slow control that allows you to play 'bombs' (D4, Belcher) while voiding soft counters, and without having to invest other cards to cast them. They keep having to throw away 2 cards to stop you from casting your single card, and you win via card advantage/attrition. It's no accident that Belcher casts nicely through Counterbalance.

However, when I play against modern tempo decks, I'm rarely get more than a single mana from Carpet, and often don't get any. This means that I have to invest other cards to cast Belcher (ie, Dark Ritual, etc). As soon as you have to do this the attrition model falls apart, even ignoring the fact that they have a much faster clock than they used to.

Belcher is a very expensive win condition, requiring 7 mana. If I've successfully stuck a Swarm or a Veil, is it actually the best win con? I'm not sure. But right now I'm feeling like I'd be better of transitioning into Great Sable Stag and friends than Belcher.

I do agree that bringing in EtW could be a very good idea for those shorter combo chains, but I want to nail down the protection package before focusing too much on the actual win cons.

[Final Fortune]

If you're discussing Pact SI, I think your MD protection package is Autumn's Veil just so you have another Green card for your Skyshroud Cutter, the problem with Xantid Swarm is that you have too little of reliable green sources to cast it compared to Autumn's Veil since Summoner's Pact is a no go.

If you're discussing SITES, I think it's a poor choice considering MD Stifle and SB Flusterstorms are in vogue in aggro-control right now, Empty the Warrens just doesn't offer the defensive coverage to storm decks it used to.

If you're discussing BUG Storm, I think it's fine to cut Gitaxian Probe, Xantid Swarm doesn't care how many cards they have in their hand so you can make the deck redundant with a 2nd Ad Nauseam, a 15th land and Chrome Mox(es). Also I think the Fetchland, Dryad Arbor, Green Sun's Zenith and Xantid Swarm package could possibly fuel the Draw 4 deck, but the issue with the draw 4 deck is that it needs to be able to cost effectively play a 2nd creature durring the draw 4 chains to cast a 2nd Culling and you can't do that so well without Summoner's Pact or Kobolds. With Nauseam you just have to get one Culling off, but anway something like ...

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
8 Draw 4's
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
7 G Fetch
3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

Maybe there is some way to support the D4 chains with like ESG?

[Karhumies]

Has anybody playtested a list with both Summoner's Pact and Burning Wish? Essentially it's about taking some Belcher-esque elements into PSI without the MD warping too much as a whole.

+ Easier to pilot for storm newbies like myself
+ Provides more outs to Chalice of the Void, especially versus nonblue Chalice decks (Eldrazi, monored stompy, loam) by e.g. BW-> Deconstruct
+ Provides more outs to hatebears (Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist) with BW-> Pyroclasm
+ Provides more outs to Leyline of Sanctity with BW-> Reverent Silence and BW->EtW
+ BW->Tendrils works in several storm chains where you have enough mana fir the kill but IT->Tendrils is impossible because you have a second IT, GCB and/or D4s stuck in your hand which "fizzles" the IT
+ Can run less "kill spells" (ToA) and more tutors (BW) in MD, which seems like a plus to me since the deck mulligans better thanks to BW + LED synergy
+ Possibility to short chain BW->EtW in g1 (could later turn out to be a useless feature or waste of SB space, though)
+ Less lose-the-game fizzling after resolved Pacts based on my personal goldfishing
+ More consistent t2 kills based on my personal goldfishing
+ Still faster than Belcher based on my personal goldfishing
+/- Less D4s in the list
- Going off BW->ToA costs extra mana compared to "naturally" drawing the ToA
- Less redundant black vards to Imprint in the list
- Wishboard takes up SB slots
- Red mana for BW can be problematic
- Slightly slower overall than SI without BW, although more consistent due to less fizzling


I have been goldfishing with the following:

Sorcery Tutors (7)
3x Burning Wish
3x Infernal Tutor
1x Dark Petition

Sorcery D4s (6)
3x Cruel Bargain
3x Infernal Contract

Other Sorcery (6)
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Land Grant
1x Tendrils of Agony

Artifact (14)
4x Chrome Mox
2x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Creature (7)
1x Deathrite Shaman
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Skullwinder
1x Wild Cantor

Instant (16)
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual
4x Summoner's Pact

Land (2)
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor

MD flex slot (2)
1x Slithermuse
1x Tinder Wall
...any alternative flex slot recommendations?

Sideboard (17) - trying to narrow this down to 15

Wishboard (7)
1x Balance of Power (Useless?)
1x Deconstruct (is Shattering Spree better?)
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Infernal Tutor (for when you need that extra +1 storm after BW resolves. Could be 4 IT - 2 BW in MD to save 1 SB slot? Or stupidly enough have 1 extra BW in the SB in this slot?)
1x Pyroclasm
1x Reverent Silence (waste ot SB space ... or super useful vs Leyline of Sanctity?)
1x Tendrils of Agony

Others (10)
4x Lotus Bloom
2x Autumn's Veil
4x Carpet of Flowers

[Silent Requiem]

While I've not tested the list you posted, why would you play this over SI-TES if you want to run burning wish?

Pact shuts out BW > EtW. You also have a harder time making R because you can't imprint Kobolds. You also lose out on the Kobold/EtW/Cabal Therapy interaction for clearing counters and protecting your goblins.

It seems to me that SI-TES has all the advantages you are looking for (plus others, like an actual mana base, if you want it), and fewer of the disadvantages.

[Karhumies]

While I've not tested the list you posted, why would you play this over SI-TES if you want to run burning wish?

Because I have a "gut feeling" that access to GCB lines of play in g1/g2 on the draw against random non-blue storm hate (CotV, Ancient Tomb into Thorn of Amethyst/Warping Wail) can be beneficial in my FLGS metagame. Cabal Therapy on the draw is too little, too late.

[Silent Requiem]

Because I have a "gut feeling" that access to GCB lines of play in g1/g2 on the draw against random non-blue storm hate (CotV, Ancient Tomb into Thorn of Amethyst/Warping Wail) can be beneficial in my FLGS metagame. Cabal Therapy on the draw is too little, too late.

Well, tuning for your meta is as good a reason as any, I suppose.

Alright, here's a more considered (albeit, untested) response.

1) If you want to generate R, get serious about it. Drop ESG for SSG.

2) Pact seems wrong for this approach, especially if you have dropped ESG (above). Pact requires a 'win now' approach, whereas both Belcher and EtW want to win over a turn or two. I really don't see how Pact is optimal if you want to run both of these win conditions. I'd lose the Pact package and run Kobolds. They imprint for R, but also make your combo chains smoother, as CtW is +3 mana (in PSI CtW is only +2 mana if you have already made your land drop or can't find Arbor).

3) If you can generate R, Past in Flames is simply amazing. Unlike some of our other tutor targets, PiF is still good when you draw into it mid combo. Even if you don't have the mana for it, you can often crack an LED or two, flash it back, and then win the game. I've not been able to make it work consistently in PSI because in your opening hand it is just as dead as everything else, but doesn't even have a useful imprint. You don't have that problem.

4) If you drop Pact, Slithermuse is probably better as EtW. Between IGG/PiF (for when you can float mana) and EtW (for when you can't), I'm not sure when you actually want to tutor for Slithermuse.

Actually, I think that could be very strong. You could board in Belchers, Therapies and Duress against blue, while still having space for a bit of a wishboard.

[Karhumies]

Alright, here's a more considered (albeit, untested) response.


Thanks for the input!

Yes, U Slithermuse has been horrible in a list with BGR mana colors. Dropping it for an on-color card (EtW) seems sensible.

Pact has been half of the time tutor for Dryad Arbor for CtW target, half of the time tutor for ESG/Tinder Wall for extra mana, but occasionally tutor for Wild Cantor to turn G mana into B mana. Losing out the Wild cantor tutoring might hurt a little bit. Especially since Pact into Cantor or Tinder Wall has been an excellent method to get 5->7 cards in the gy to get threshold for Cabal Ritual, which allows easy going off from there onwards.

I had not really considered running Kobolds before as imprintable CtW targets and replacing ESG with SSG before. This definitely sounds goldfish-worthy. Suddenly, the deck might not need green mana anymore, so I guess I need to re-think the mana base as well.

[MDHackbert]

Hello, I am new to this archetype and wanted to take a couple decklists for a spin. What are the current couple of major variants and some quick cliffs notes on them?

[mistercakes]

Check first post, lots of good stuff.

[Silent Requiem]

Hello, I am new to this archetype and wanted to take a couple decklists for a spin. What are the current couple of major variants and some quick cliffs notes on them?

Broadly, there are three viable versions of SI: P(act)SI, (Land)G(rant)SI, and B(urning Wish)SI/SI-TES.

You can find more details, and base lists, in the initial primer, but PSI is green/black, and is the fastest, most all in version. It is also considered the hardest to pilot; in addition to hideously complex lines of play, failed storm chains often just lose you the game, thanks to Summoner's Pact.

GSI is also green/black, but also runs a large number of 'tall men' - 0 casting cost artifact creatures that act as early game blockers and fuel for the Culling Engine.

BSI is the 'slowest' (with an mere 50% estimated turn 1 win rate for the best pilots), but runs black/red with Kobolds instead of tallmen. This allows the deck to play Burning Wish (much like TES, which is why it is often called SI-TES), and so has much better odds of dealing with random hate in games 2 & 3, thanks to a modest wish-board. Because Empty the Warrens allows for some shorter storm chains, it is generally considered the easiest list to play, albeit only in comparison to other SI lists.

Edit - Here is an old SI-TES tournament report that gives you an idea of how the deck plays: http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2011/01/no-one-expects-the-spanish-inquisition-to-win-by-stuart-taylor/

[MDHackbert]

Thanks, I'll check that out.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

[Final Fortune]

If you're new to the deck I'd suggest,

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
7 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual

The problem with Pact SI, as innovative as it is, is Land Grant will always give villains a free Gitxian Probe and turn their discard and counter spells into land destruction. If you learn to play the deck by using lands and creatures, then you'll learn how to slow play, win small and kill with a single or double Tendrils of Agony. You also give yourself more ways to win, by being able to SB in Empty the Warrens and/or Past in Flames and depending on whether or not you want to risk Stifle and Wasteland you can use a 4 Fetch Land/3 Dual Land mana base in order to side in answers from either green or red.

[MDHackbert]

If you're new to the deck I'd suggest,

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
7 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual

The problem with Pact SI, as innovative as it is, is Land Grant will always give villains a free Gitxian Probe and turn their discard and counter spells into land destruction. If you learn to play the deck by using lands and creatures, then you'll learn how to slow play, win small and kill with a single or double Tendrils of Agony. You also give yourself more ways to win, by being able to SB in Empty the Warrens and/or Past in Flames and depending on whether or not you want to risk Stifle and Wasteland you can use a 4 Fetch Land/3 Dual Land mana base in order to side in answers from either green or red.

So the Kobolds over tallmen here are to be able to exile to mox, instead of not, and then also providing red from mox for SB cards?

[Final Fortune]

So the Kobolds over tallmen here are to be able to exile to mox, instead of not, and then also providing red from mox for SB cards?

Basically; Swamp, Chrome Mox and imprint Crimson Kobold, Cabal Ritual and Draw 4 is a line of play which makes the original list more reliable - imprinting for red mana is only relevant if you're MDing Empty the Warrens over Ill Gotten Gains or you're SBing in Empty the Warrens over Tendrils of Agony. There are transformational SBs that can take advantage of being on the play, for instance you can SB out Ill Gotten Gains, 3 Tendrils of Agony and 4 Cabal Therapy for 4 Empty the Warrens and 4 Simian Spirit Guide and put them on Force of Will or no Force of Will where kobolds imprinting for red mana is crucial. The MD Ill Gotten Gains is training wheels vs fair decks and you can protect the loop vs counter spells with a Kobold and Cabal Therapy, but if you play vs more blue decks then you'll want MD Empty the Warrens for game one and then Past in Flames for game 2 so you can mix up your Infernal Tutor strategy vs their hate.

I think the original list is better than Pact SI, it just used Land Grant and artifact creatures for no really good reason - giving away Gitaxian Probes, turning discard and counter spells into land destruction and Bayou -> Cabal Therapy exposing you to Wasteland isn't worth another point for Storm and Threshold, imprinting for green mana or playing Goblin Charbelcher.

[emidln]

Basically; Swamp, Chrome Mox and imprint Crimson Kobold, Cabal Ritual and Draw 4 is a line of play which makes the original list more reliable - imprinting for red mana is only relevant if you're MDing Empty the Warrens over Ill Gotten Gains or you're SBing in Empty the Warrens over Tendrils of Agony. There are transformational SBs that can take advantage of being on the play, for instance you can SB out Ill Gotten Gains, 3 Tendrils of Agony and 4 Cabal Therapy for 4 Empty the Warrens and 4 Simian Spirit Guide and put them on Force of Will or no Force of Will where kobolds imprinting for red mana is crucial. The MD Ill Gotten Gains is training wheels vs fair decks and you can protect the loop vs counter spells with a Kobold and Cabal Therapy, but if you play vs more blue decks then you'll want MD Empty the Warrens for game one and then Past in Flames for game 2 so you can mix up your Infernal Tutor strategy vs their hate.

I think the original list is better than Pact SI, it just used Land Grant and artifact creatures for no really good reason - giving away Gitaxian Probes, turning discard and counter spells into land destruction and Bayou -> Cabal Therapy exposing you to Wasteland isn't worth another point for Storm and Threshold, imprinting for green mana or playing Goblin Charbelcher.

The real question is if you care about Goblin Charbelcher. If you don't, you win a lot by just playing 6-8 lands instead of 2 lands + 4 bayouLand Grant. Tall Men enabling Mox Opal and Therapy flashback are non-trivial. Outside of IMS availability (which skipping belcher or playing Tallman + mox opal or Pact all help with) is that relying on draw4s results in a lot of fizzling situations that put you in topdeck mode (with a ton of really bad topdecks). Tallman help with that, but not so much that it isn't among the top two problems. That's the major issue I was trying to solve with SAINT (to maximize situations where you either draw enough cards to win or put a win condition into play), which I still believe is a strictly better deck than Pact SI, Bg SI, or Br SI.

Edit: s/bayou/Land Grant/

[Karhumies]

Actually, I think that could be very strong. You could board in Belchers, Therapies and Duress against blue, while still having space for a bit of a wishboard.

First goldfish attempt:

Sorcery (21)
3x Burning Wish
4x Cruel Bargain
2x Empty the Warrens
1x Ill-Gotten Gains / Past in Flames
4x Infernal Contract
2x Infernal Tutor
4x Land Grant
1x Tendrils of Agony

Artifact (13)
4x Chrome Mox
1x Goblin Charbelcher / 3rd Empty the Warrens
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Instant (12)
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual

Creature (11)
3x Crimson Kobolds
3x Crookshank Kobolds
1x Manaforge Cinder / 7th Kobold
4x Simian Spirit Guide

Land (3)
2x Bayou
1x Taiga

I have to say, I am not 100% convinced. Getting the initial first black mana to go off is too much dependant on Land Grant resolving. There are way less black cards to imprint with the red cards thrown in, Taiga does not provide B mana and there is no Pact to tutor for Wild Cantor for G->B color filtering. If the opponent begins on the play with t1 spot discard to take out land grant/petal/chrome mox, way more hands turn into bricks than I would like. Not to even mention getting opened up to Wasteland and t1 moon effects (monored stompy, some big red builds) compared to running just Swamps.

I think I am off to goldfish the monoblack tallmen and kobold builds next. I don't have enough goldfish experience with those to have an informed opinion yet.

[Final Fortune]

The real question is if you care about Goblin Charbelcher. If you don't, you win a lot by just playing 6-8 lands instead of 2 lands + 4 bayou. Tall Men enabling Mox Opal and Therapy flashback are non-trivial. Outside of IMS availability (which skipping belcher or playing Tallman + mox opal or Pact all help with) is that relying on draw4s results in a lot of fizzling situations that put you in topdeck mode (with a ton of really bad topdecks). Tallman help with that, but not so much that it isn't among the top two problems. That's the major issue I was trying to solve with SAINT (to maximize situations where you either draw enough cards to win or put a win condition into play), which I still believe is a strictly better deck than Pact SI, Bg SI, or Br SI.

Don't Mox Opal lists require Vault of Whispers? I never really found Metalcraft to be consistent, and you're making concessions by exposing yourself to Wasteland with Artifactlands and not imprinting on Chrome Mox. My issue with Goblin Charbelcher is that if you eat a Stifle then you're dead to your Summoner's Pact trigger. If I'm going to play a face roll win condition, then at least Empty the Warrens changes their counter prioritization to my rituals and without Summoner's Pact you can top deck your way out of a Stifle.

I just think the costs of Land Grant up front are too prohibitive compared to the risks of the D4 chains on the back end, and it's not like Belcher doesn't fizzle either (I've flipped many a land before 20) Kobolds always imprint on Mox, Swamps never get destroyed and Goblins generally get there game 1, so it seems like the safer bet.

[Karhumies]

Don't Mox Opal lists require Vault of Whispers? I never really found Metalcraft to be consistent, and you're making concessions by exposing yourself to Wasteland with Artifactlands and not imprinting on Chrome Mox.

I've seen Mox Opal lists ranging somewhere between
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Opal
0-4 Chrome Mox
6-10 Tallmen
0-4 Vault of Whispers
0-4 Goblin Charbelcher

Including Chrome Moxes along with the Opal (even 2-3) makes the Opal better, but there is less to imprint without the Kobolds. Opal is one of the cards which gets hit by mulliganing into less cards in hand because that makes Metalcraft harder to achieve.

Running more Tallmen (up to 10) allows running MD Cabal Therapy as a byproduct.

Casting Ad Nauseam should give you metalcraft 90+% of the time. Post Nauseam, Opals effectively become extra petals. However, running cmc3 D4s which halve your health in the same list with Nauseam is suividal.

[Silent Requiem]

So the Kobolds over tallmen here are to be able to exile to mox, instead of not, and then also providing red from mox for SB cards?

As Final Fortune points out, it's that they imprint at all rather than because the deck demands huge amounts of red mana. Of course, being able to imprint for red will certainly be relevant on occasion.


The real question is if you care about Goblin Charbelcher. If you don't, you win a lot by just playing 6-8 lands instead of 2 lands + 4 bayou.

I think you have articulated this very well. Having dropped Belcher from the (PSI) maindeck, and now from my sideboard, I am really, really liking the switch from Land Grant to Fetchlands. While the goldfishing is ever so slightly weaker (less storm, harder to get hellbent), in actual matches it is a huge improvement.


Outside of IMS availability (which skipping belcher or playing Tallman + mox opal or Pact all help with) is that relying on draw4s results in a lot of fizzling situations that put you in topdeck mode (with a ton of really bad topdecks). Tallman help with that, but not so much that it isn't among the top two problems. That's the major issue I was trying to solve with SAINT (to maximize situations where you either draw enough cards to win or put a win condition into play), which I still believe is a strictly better deck than Pact SI, Bg SI, or Br SI.

This is a high variance deck, no doubt about it. While this makes the deck unattractive to genuinely talented pilots, it's less of a concern (or even a perk?) for someone of my more modest gifts. :laugh:


I have to say, I am not 100% convinced. Getting the initial first black mana to go off is too much dependant on Land Grant resolving. There are way less black cards to imprint with the red cards thrown in, Taiga does not provide B mana and there is no Pact to tutor for Wild Cantor for G->B color filtering. If the opponent begins on the play with t1 spot discard to take out land grant/petal/chrome mox, way more hands turn into bricks than I would like. Not to even mention getting opened up to Wasteland and t1 moon effects (monored stompy, some big red builds) compared to running just Swamps.

Ultimately, that is the cost of playing Goblin Charbelcher. Virtually all of your initial mana sources can be countered or discarded. Which is why I've dropped Belcher entirely. As much as it would seem fun to drop GCB on that guy holding back a Flusterstorm, it's one of those cards where you have to weigh up the games it cost you against the games where it actually helped you win.

In that sense, it's a lot like Eternal Witness. Which, amusingly, is what I swapped out GCB for. It's as if the deck tolerates only a certain number of niche cards...


I just think the costs of Land Grant up front are too prohibitive compared to the risks of the D4 chains on the back end, and it's not like Belcher doesn't fizzle either (I've flipped many a land before 20) Kobolds always imprint on Mox, Swamps never get destroyed and Goblins generally get there game 1, so it seems like the safer bet.

While I've dropped Land Grant, I've not gone to basic Swamps. Being able to fetch Dryad Arbor for Culling just feels like such a good play. I'm playing PSI, though, so I don't have access to 0 cc creatures.

[Karhumies]

Ultimately, that is the cost of playing Goblin Charbelcher. Virtually all of your initial mana sources can be countered or discarded. Which is why I've dropped Belcher entirely. As much as it would seem fun to drop GCB on that guy holding back a Flusterstorm, it's one of those cards where you have to weigh up the games it cost you against the games where it actually helped you win.

Based on some quick goldfishing, if keeping the GCB in, I feel that a monoblack or a super light red splash list (0 SSG, 0 ESG, 0-2 EtW and 0-1 BW/PiF MD) is the way to go. The deck will be vulnerable to initial mana source disruption, but surviving that, it will "go off" more reliably mid-chain via redundancy (btw, Gitaxian Probe is a nicer filler than Manamorphose without ESG or SSG if struggling to reach 60) without naturally drawing into all the fancy G and U mana cards and cool one-ofs in the MD when you don't have the color filtering available for them. If you want to support fancy 1-ofs and multiple color splashes, my recommendation would be to make the land base steadier than 1 wasteable land, 0-1 creature removable land with summoning sickness without B access + 4 counterable Land Grants. Which results in dropping the GCB from MD.

[Xod]

I'll still be using the 2 MD GCB, I have a small event tonight and tomorrow night, and a big one on Saturday. Depending on the 2 smaller events, if I do 'decently' (at least 2-2), I will take it on Saturday as well.

The maindeck GCB gave me 3 wins from the 5 games wins last Friday. Will try the 4 swarms over the 4 blooms this time.

[mistercakes]

What do you guys think of this Rhona's last stand as a sb option?

Land grant + petal or esg gives you a turn 1 5/4.

[Silent Requiem]

What do you guys think of this Rhona's last stand as a sb option?

Land grant + petal or esg gives you a turn 1 5/4.

I think double green without Pact is iffy. Perhaps with Carpet as part of an updated man plan?

[Karhumies]

What do you guys think of this Rhona's last stand as a sb option?

Land grant + petal or esg gives you a turn 1 5/4.

No trample or flying = unlikely to finish the job by itself against most Legacy decks, especially since the 4 toughness can be quite easily killed by double blocking even if the opponent has sided out all spot creature removal.

Accidentally hit by EE and Echoing Truth which people might bring in if they expect EtW tokens. Accidentally hit by flusterstorm, spell pierce, invasive surgery, which people might be bringing in if they run those in the SB because it's not an "authentic" creature.


In terms of innovating low cmc threats:

Death's Shadow, Quirion Dryad and Young Pyromancer seem to me like they could "snowball" better, but those also lack trample/flying. Dark Confidant and Stoneforge mystic are suited for grindier value games.

Personally, I would like to try out a robots style beatdown conversion of a tallman list. 4x Steel Overseer, 4x Cranial Plating, 2x Etched Champion, 2x Thoughtcast? Would that be any good in practice? The general idea would be to overwhelm blue tempo decks with the quantity of threats.

[emidln]

Don't Mox Opal lists require Vault of Whispers? I never really found Metalcraft to be consistent, and you're making concessions by exposing yourself to Wasteland with Artifactlands and not imprinting on Chrome Mox. My issue with Goblin Charbelcher is that if you eat a Stifle then you're dead to your Summoner's Pact trigger. If I'm going to play a face roll win condition, then at least Empty the Warrens changes their counter prioritization to my rituals and without Summoner's Pact you can top deck your way out of a Stifle.

I just think the costs of Land Grant up front are too prohibitive compared to the risks of the D4 chains on the back end, and it's not like Belcher doesn't fizzle either (I've flipped many a land before 20) Kobolds always imprint on Mox, Swamps never get destroyed and Goblins generally get there game 1, so it seems like the safer bet.

In SAINT, we found Mox Opal to be reliable with:

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Shield Sphere
4 Ornithopter
2 Phyrexian Walker

SAINT also played 4 Goblin Charbelcher, although Charbelcher doesn't count for Metalcraft in terms of Mox Opal being an IMS.

[Silent Requiem]

In SAINT, we found Mox Opal to be reliable with:

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Shield Sphere
4 Ornithopter
2 Phyrexian Walker

SAINT also played 4 Goblin Charbelcher, although Charbelcher doesn't count for Metalcraft in terms of Mox Opal being an IMS.

Did you ever do a proper primer for that deck?

If I remember correctly, the verdict was essentially 'good, but nothing that TES and ANT don't already do'. Has anything changed over the last few years that would make SAINT a better choice? Those two decks have certainly changed a great deal over that time.

[mistercakes]

Taken off of stormboards, dated as well

emidln
Administrator
*****
Mar 23, 2012 at 1:15am
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This is a deck I've been trolling people with on Cockatrice for the past few months. It's based around two ideas:

(a) SI would be a pretty decent deck if only it didn't fizzle so much due to the randomness of draw4s
(b) RG Belcher would be a pretty decent deck if only it didn't fizzle so much due to opponents answering ETW

With that in mind, I started with a classic SI shell, ala 2006 (Par-tah like it's 2006 yo!):

4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
10 Tall Men (Shield Sphere/Ornithopter/Phyrexian Walker)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy

So far, we have infinite mana and a way to go get something. We need more business, and we definitely need to abuse Mox Opal, since that card wasn't around in 2006.

+4 Mox Opal

But what about the business? Draw4s are pretty awkward. Sometimes you chain them into a win or more draw4s, sometimes you sit there pretty awkwardly having stripped your opponent of their force and lost half (or more) of you life. Ad Nauseam is a fine card and definitely something I would have built around had it existed when SI was first pondered. With 12 free artifact mana sources and gobs of mana, I'm pretty fine running the full set. It's better if you draw into it naturally. Also, we want to be goldfishing people on turn 1 right? Right.

+4 Ad Nauseam

Now, we just need to work out how to win. Some of the recent ways are Grapeshot, Tendrils, IGG->Tendrils, Past in Flames->Tendrils, and Empty the Warrens. While Tendrils and Grapeshot are both probably okay in the abstract, most of your will notice that this deck with Tendrils has been tried and judged to be too inconsistent in the past. IGG doesn't bring anything particularly spicy, and Past in Flames is more than a little awkward in this deck given how much you need to make it work without artifacts. So, if all of the win conditions suck, why am I writing this?

+4 Goblin Charbelcher

You see, Goblin Charbelcher is exactly what this deck wants. If we start to talk in the abstract, you'll notice that we have 9 business spells right now. That is, 9 cards that, if you see any of them in your opener with the gobs of mana this shell is known for, just kill your opponent. 9 business spells isn't enough for a deck that doesn't have cantrips. 9 business spells isn't enough to have a reasonably high certainty that I will have one in my opening hand. Further, with 9, I might be forced to mull a hand that has a win condition, but lacks other pieces and the relatively low density can easily come back to bite me on the fresh hand. 13 business spells is a good number. 13 is 2 more than Belcher. 13 is pretty close to the number that made SI so explosive and resilient when Goblins roamed the land. Goblin Charbelcher is not only a win condition, perfect for flipping to Ad Naus with your mana, but it's an awesome draw by itself. Goblin Charbelcher is that mythic threat that ends the game all by itself with no help (in this deck at least).

So, we have SI, -draw4s, -tendrils/igg, +ad nauseam, +belcher. Why does this matter?

SI is fast. SI has always been on pace with Belcher, usually edging it out slightly because Belcher needs to pass the turn quite frequently (almost 2/3s of the time due to Wish/ETW making up 7/11 of its business). SI's major fault is that it loses to itself with alarming frequency. Not just fizzles mind you, but shuffle up your deck, move to the next game losing. Pact SI is the most common variant now, using Pacts to simulate business and cut some of the worse draws you might have off your draw4s. It's not good enough in my eyes.

I believe I've fixed this by relying on Ad Nauseam and Goblin Charbelcher instead of draw4s. Further, Mox Opal adds increased mana consistency (always a choking point for SI). Mox Opals have a side effect of requiring Tall Men, but I can even turn that into at least a neutral requirement by flashbing back therapy and blocking to keep my life total high for AdN.

Belcher is fast. Belcher has been one of the fastest decks, if not the fastest, for its entire lifespan in legacy. With ETW it became extremely consistent. With Stoneforge Mystic and Knight of the Reliquary both appearing on turn 2, it became unreliable against aggro as well as Force of Will. Belcher could never really afford much protection, but it sidestepped that by using an opponents sometimes imperfect information to drop Goblins when your opp countered the wrong spell.

I believe I've fixed this by cutting out the "bad" draws of Belcher were you had a lot of uncertainty. Now Belcher is still a fine opening, but your plan B is cast Ad Naus to just draw into your Belcher. You even gain the ability to Therapy/Duress an opponent to add some amount of protection if you don't feel the turn 1 is safe.

The sideboard I've been working with has been:

4 Nature's Claim
3 Duress
8 slots

I don't really use other slots. I tend to side out 1 tall man, 1 diabolic intent, 1 mox opal, for 3 Duress against control decks. Most aggro decks you just ask them if they have Mindbreak Trap and move to game 3 if they do. You have nature's claim to guard against Chalice @ 0 and some other edge cases (although, sadly, not chalice @ 1). A manplan sideboard involving Tomb of Urami, Phyrexian Obliterator, and Abyssal Persecutor might be okay (and indeed, maybe better than Nature's Claim). I don't think Tendrils is really necessary, although for a slot to beat Surgical Extraction when you're unlucky enough to have your Belcher already (via enemy discard spells or LED) might be worth it.

The 10th tall man (maybe the 9th as well), the Diabolic Intent, and the 4th Mox Opal are all pretty marginal. They could be a mixture of Duress if you wanted more maindeck.

I won't bother you with matchups. It's basically Belcher that doesn't suffer Batterskull/EE/Deed and gets to run Therapy+Duress. Take Belcher's matchups and know that the deck doesn't necessary blow when the game goes long

[emidln]

The only update is to say that Mentor is a viable sideboard plan. I don't know if it's the best sideboard plan, but it's certainly viable (you want to side some scrublands and possibly a savannah to make it better). If you go try the semi-transformational sideboard, you probably want to include some extra Duress, a PiF, a ToA, and probably Fragmentizes.

[Silent Requiem]

Well, he certainly knew how to sell it! Losing to poor D4 is indeed the weakness of SI.

I'm not completely sold on Belcher as the win condition, though. We've just been discussing the weakness of Land Grant in a modern meta, and being able to drop some real lands is very, very nice. I do belive there is a 'better' version of SI out there, and it probably involves Ad Nauseam, but Land Grant is just so very meta dependent.

[Karhumies]

I'm not completely sold on Belcher as the win condition, though. We've just been discussing the weakness of Land Grant in a modern meta, and being able to drop some real lands is very, very nice. I do belive there is a 'better' version of SI out there, and it probably involves Ad Nauseam, but Land Grant is just so very meta dependent.

If you start to modify SAINT with..
- 4 Land Grant
- 1 tallman
- 1 opal
+ 6 land

- 4 GCB
+ 3 ToA
+ 1 IGG

...then you will realize you have to mulligan to 8 business spells (AdN or IT), need to splash red for EtW, and relatively quickly you are looking at SI-TES where you want to add some Ad Nauseam in.

Another alternative list from the storm boards, however, was running Plunge into Darkness + EtW instead of Ad Nauseam:


Year 2012

At this point its an entirely different deck so I'll make another thread for it.. but it evolved into this:


- Plunge into Goblins -

Business - 16
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Spoils of the Vault

Protection - 4
Cabal Therapy

Tallmen - 6
4 Shield Sphere
2 Phyrexian Walker

Acceleration - 14
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

Initial Mana - 20
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Badlands
2 Simian Spirit Guide

Sideboard - 15
4 Death's Shadow
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tomb of Urami
2 Thoughtseize



Belcher is just too taxing on the hand and its too inhibitive if you want to play Mox Opal. The vaults are indispensible once you hit post-board for the man plan. Obliterators are fucking retardedly good. Batterskull? Ok...... RUG has reach spells? Wipe their board. Nuts. Against UW variants... you have 13 creatures post-board, and then 6 protections spells, Therapys which you can reuse when you drop another dude and Seize which helps when you want a smaller life total for Shadows.

Spoils has been fucking awesome. Just like the versatility of Plunge, it can turn into a red source for EtW, a tallman so you can use a Culling in hand, a LED to interact with IT, or even on occassion finds a Therapy so you can Therapy/flashback before going for EtW. I've been going off on turn 1 almost every game, don't have percentages yet but I'd say its on par with Belcher in terms of getting an EtW out but typically for about 12 to 14 goblins, and with protection in the maindeck.

[Silent Requiem]

Sideboard thought experiment:

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Hope of Ghirapur
4 Leyline of Lifeforce

Initial reactions?

[mistercakes]

what matchups is this for? seems sketchy since they just need a removal spell.

[Silent Requiem]

I'm thinking of the generic blue matchup, where (post board) they run more counters than we run distruption - although many of those will be soft counters - as well as card filtering. They typically run far less removal, so I wondered if it would be possible to blank those counters entirely and force them to rely completely on their much smaller removal suite.

I suspect this is all overly complicated, but it doesn't hurt to toss the idea about.

[Karhumies]

I suspect this is all overly complicated, but it doesn't hurt to toss the idea about.

Defense Grid and Autumn's Veil seem like decent anti-counter cards to me. If you are running EtW in your list or if your opponent expects you to run EtW post SB, the opponent might SB in AoE effects which will accidentally hit your insects and thopters.

Also, Great Sable Stag comes into my mind faster than the Leyline.

[Silent Requiem]

A small event report for those who enjoy learning from the mistakes of others. This was my third weekly event since getting back into Magic, and my second event with PSI, so don't expect perfect piloting. :laugh:

This was my list:

1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Slithermuse
1 Eternal Witness

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wild Cantor
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard

4 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Past in Flames
2 Empty the Warrens

Round 1 - 4cc

Game 1: He's on the play (I don't win a single dice roll all night), and neither of us know what the other is playing. When he cracks a fetch for Tundra > Ponder, I know that I need to win this quick or be buried in card quality.

Fortunately, my hand is full of redundancy, with double Ritual, double Petal, and double D4. My first Petal > Ritual > D4 eats a Force, but my second one gets me there.

Game 2: A long, grinding game where he gets out a Liliana and tries to use it attack my hand. At the same time, I manage to strip the counters out of his hand, so when I top-deck Past in Flames, I win after a long and convoluted chain.

1-0

Round 2 - 4cc

Game 1: I go off on my first turn, but make a poor play decision. I can either go off with Lotus Petal, which costs me more cards if he has countermagic, or I can Imprint my Infernal Tutor and have a recurring resource. I go with the latter play and it turns out he has no counter, but my D4 draws me into all gas and no business. The LED would have given me the game win if I had kept the Tutor. Oh, well.

Game 2: My T1 Duress strips his relevant counter, and I go off the following turn.

Game 3: Another grinding game, I end up in a position where I have an Infernal Tutor with 6 mana floating. I elect to fetch Infernal Tutor > Empty the Warrens. Only after doing so do I realize that fetching Past in Flames would have won me the game on the spot (it's a relatively new addition to the sideboard for me, as I've been focusing on the green sideboard that works better with IGG). Instead, he's able to drop a Monastery Mentor and win the attrition battle while my hand fills back up with nothing useful.

1-1

Round 3 - RG Combo Lands

Game 1: Scouting means I know what he's playing. We both end up mulling to five, and I keep a hand with loads of gas and no business. It takes me several turns to top-deck a D4, but he's recovering as well, so I have the time I need to win.

Game 2: I've never played against Lands before, but given the nature of his deck, Chalice makes a huge amount of sense, as does Leyline. I don't have Abrupt Decay yet (pending), but I can bring in EtW in case of Leyline.

As it happens, I have a two land hand, and he passes the turn without dropping any hate. I can either play a land and pass, to go off next turn with two lands, or I can go for EtW right now. While Chalice on 0 is the big fear, someone who doesn't know this deck might hold off for Chalice on 1, so I can't write off that card yet. On balance, I decide to go for EtW (as Slithermuse, the alternative play, was unhelpfully sitting in my opening seven). It gets me there.

2-1

Round 4 - UR Delver

Game 1: Having learned to be as aggressive as possible against U game one, I go all out. I find lethal, but in response he cracks both fetches for Tropical Island and double Bolts me. Ha! Neither of us could quite believe the way that game turned out.

Game 2: Swamp > Ritual > Duress (stripping the counter) > C Ritual > C Ritual > D4. I draw into both Tendrils, Chrome Mox, and a land. Drawing into so much junk, I'm unable to recover before he beats me down.

2-2

Afterthoughts:

Not an impressive finish by any means, but it would have been a 3-1 finish if I had seen the PiF line of play in Round 2 more swiftly. I could say that there were games where I got unlucky, but SI is a high variance deck the occasional 'bad luck' is the price of entry.

I'm broadly happy with the main deck. Eternal Witness will possibly become Skullwinder. I'm always trying to fit another Dark Petition in there somewhere. But mostly it's fine.

I've been testing sideboards against blue very heavily the past two weeks. While the green sideboard is strong, I find myself preferring the black version. This allows me to focus on a mono-color manabase, getting to the point where I can simply hardcast D4s to draw out counters.

This is what Carpet of Flowers used to do, but in testing I found that these days it rarely produced more than one mana, and often none at all (players will often drop a threat, then Daze their Island back to their hand). Add in the possibility of being countered, and the fact that it is (at best) a second mana source, and I've been finding that simply dropping Swamps is better.

[mistercakes]

Thanks for the report. As an aside, would unmask have been better than any of the discard?

[Silent Requiem]

Thanks for the report. As an aside, would unmask have been better than any of the discard?

Not in any of these matches. While the sample size is really small, if you make allowances for my PiF misplay, I only actually lost one post-board game against U, and that was due to a bricked D4.

My sideboard strategy has been to drop perpetual resources and start lobbing D4s and discard effects until I'm able to go off - a very brute force method. This was actually commented on a number of times during the tournament; Duress/Therapy might reveal a number of counters, and I'd discard the worst and simply go off straight into the teeth of the remaining counters, just to use them up. I have more D4 + discard than they have counters.

The upshot of this is that because I'm running 9 lands that produce/fetch black, plus other initial mana sources, casting Duress was typically not an issue. I've not tested Unmask, and I can certainly see cases where being able to hit hatebears would be very useful, but in the U matchup I think the card disadvantage is a real drawback. If discarding hatebears instead of just racing them becomes a thing, I'd probably trial Thoughtseize before Unmask.

[Final Fortune]

Those SB Swamps and discard should just be MD, if you'd stop tool boxing with Summoner's Pact then there's more than enough space for +2 Swamps. Once you have the Swamps, -4 Spirit Guides for Cabal Therapy and then you have SB space for a Bayou? and real SB cards.

[Silent Requiem]

Those SB Swamps and discard should just be MD, if you'd stop tool boxing with Summoner's Pact then there's more than enough space for +2 Swamps. Once you have the Swamps, -4 Spirit Guides for Cabal Therapy and then you have SB space for a Bayou? and real SB cards.

That's certainly a possibility. And if my meta turns out to be mostly blue, that could be the way to go. But for now I like the raw speed and power of PSI against non-blue decks, which I would lose if I dropped the Pact package.

And ESG is actually quite useful against blue. Not only do they offer Daze protection in the early turns, but when the game turns into a grind, hard-casting them provides a modest clock and allows you to flashback Cabal Therapy.

I own the parts for SI-TES, and I'll probably pick up the tallmen for classic SI, as I don't think it hurts to test different versions to keep things fresh.

[Final Fortune]

I'm not suggesting you cut Summoner's Pact or Elvish Spirit Guide, just reduce the package to it's essentials in order to add stability and disruption because it's the only thing that really distinguishes you from Belcher.

[Karhumies]

Played SAINT in my FLGS weekly today, went 3-1. Won against Burn (2-0), Br Animator (2-0) and Lands (2-1, lost g2 on the draw after mull to 4, t1 chalice 0, t2 sphere of resistance, t3 sphere of resistance, t4 marit lage). Lost to a Nantuko Shade control deck (0-2) splashing green for Tarmogoyf (3rd round at 2-0 record) which won the coin toss, used Thoughtseize and Hymn and Hypnotic Sceptre and Liliana to great effect, and I mis-sideboarded to help him further (apparently, he was not running needle, chalice, leyline of sanctity or revoker in the 75, so I could have sideboarded 0 which was relevant because I was lacking opposing Nature's Claim targets to turn my IT active and couldn't spare the 1 extra mana to target my own guy and respond with CtW to go off).

My decklist was:
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Shield Sphere
2 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Mox Opal

Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Slaughter Pact/2 Fatal Push/1 Disfigure - should have been 4 Slaughter pact but this is what I owned. Traded for 2 pacts after the tournament and would run the 4th leyline over FP/Disfigure if I don't find a fourth copy.

[mistercakes]

Thanks for the report. It looks like a standard LGSI build. Saint runs 4 ad nauseam 4 Belcher.

Congrats on 3-1.

[Karhumies]

Thanks for the report. It looks like a standard LGSI build. Saint runs 4 ad nauseam 4 Belcher.

Congrats on 3-1.

Sorry, had only 48 cards in MD. Too tired, it's past midnight. The last 12 are
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Mox Opal

Edited the list accordingly.

[Silent Requiem]

Nice finish.

I've not tested SAINT; how would you rate it compared to SI?

[Karhumies]

Nice finish.

I've not tested SAINT; how would you rate it compared to SI?

Compared to Pact SI:

1) Easy decision-making: more linear mulligans and lines of play, lack of off color mana (no ESG, SSG, EtW or Slithermuse)

When mulliganing, you are looking for 5 mana + Ad Nauseam, 7 mana + Infernal Tutor into Ad nauseam + way to empty your hand (back-up 6 mana IT into GCB), 4 mana + GCB, bonus if LED for activation manas. You don't need to think about D4 chains and off color mana floating too much.

2) Ad Nauseam is a stupidly powerful card, especially in a nonblue meta. I frequently drew 10-15 cards with it with 100% kill rate. 5 out of 6 kills were AdN into dead opponent, 6th was Land Grant + GCB + LED. It "does not brick mid-combo" like D4 chains.

3) Land Grant works in a nonblue meta. My FLGS meta had 10 nonblue, 1 blue with stupidly low levels of storm hate other than spot discard, chalice and cmc2 permanents (typically without mana acceleration). I planned to go faster on t1/t2 on play or t1 on draw and I did.

4) The deck does not recover as well if disrupted. There are no topdeck D4s. Ramping up to 4-5 for AdN or GCB needs more mana sources, and IT is stupidly expensive without LED. It's literally a glass-cannon Belcher.

5) I love Mox Opal as a black mana source over SSG/ESG

6) No paying Daze with SSG/ESG, though

7) No losing to Pact triggers.

Additional notes:
Two times I mulled into 5 and had a t1 kill off Ad Nauseam.
Post Ad Nauseam, I always went for Tendrils kill if I could to not reveal my deck. Best effort was storm 20 t1 on the draw.
In this meta, the Cabal Therapies would actually have been better as 0 mana spells or Probe.

In other words, the deck was a meta choice which paid off.

[Silent Requiem]

Compared to Pact SI:

1) Easy decision-making: more linear mulligans and lines of play, lack of off color mana (no ESG, SSG, EtW or Slithermuse)

When mulliganing, you are looking for 5 mana + Ad Nauseam, 7 mana + Infernal Tutor into Ad nauseam + way to empty your hand (back-up 6 mana IT into GCB), 4 mana + GCB, bonus if LED for activation manas. You don't need to think about D4 chains and off color mana floating too much.

2) Ad Nauseam is a stupidly powerful card, especially in a nonblue meta. I frequently drew 10-15 cards with it with 100% kill rate. 5 out of 6 kills were AdN into dead opponent, 6th was Land Grant + GCB + LED. It "does not brick mid-combo" like D4 chains.

3) Land Grant works in a nonblue meta. My FLGS meta had 10 nonblue, 1 blue with stupidly low levels of storm hate other than spot discard, chalice and cmc2 permanents (typically without mana acceleration). I planned to go faster on t1/t2 on play or t1 on draw and I did.

4) The deck does not recover as well if disrupted. There are no topdeck D4s. Ramping up to 4-5 for AdN or GCB needs more mana sources, and IT is stupidly expensive without LED. It's literally a glass-cannon Belcher.

5) I love Mox Opal as a black mana source over SSG/ESG

6) No paying Daze with SSG/ESG, though

7) No losing to Pact triggers.

Additional notes:
Two times I mulled into 5 and had a t1 kill off Ad Nauseam.
Post Ad Nauseam, I always went for Tendrils kill if I could to not reveal my deck. Best effort was storm 20 t1 on the draw.
In this meta, the Cabal Therapies would actually have been better as 0 mana spells or Probe.

In other words, the deck was a meta choice which paid off.

Thank you for that very interesting feedback. Since my meta seems to be heavily blue, your comments regarding resilience are particularly helpful.

[mistercakes]

Sounds fun.

[Kodieyost]

Hey guys, new to both this forum and this deck. Long time control player, I've recently been transitioning into combo across all formats and this deck piqued my interest.

I've been goldfishing for a few days with PSI, 2 GCB 1 ToA in my list, 1 slithermuse 1 skullwinder, playing Land Grantd

I came across a really interesting opening hand this evening, I'd like to get some feedback.

LED
Land Grant
Lotus Petal
Skullwinder
Dark Ritual
Culling the Weak
Tendrils of Agony

Now, it's got ZERO play to it. There is only one line that I can see, and that's the one which leads to T1 Tendrils for 16.

Would any of you keep this hand? and would anyone just wait for something off the top to make the hand GG instead of near-lethal?

In goldfishing, I would've elected to keep, and hold off for a piece of gas off the top in the hopes I draw a Pact, LG, or some other piece of free storm Count.

In practice, the top card was an Infernal Tutor, which makes it GG by cracking LED and going hellbent after producing 5 mana, picking up the IGGY loop.

Anyone have general rules of thumb for mulligan/keep they could pass on?

[Silent Requiem]

Hey guys, new to both this forum and this deck. Long time control player, I've recently been transitioning into combo across all formats and this deck piqued my interest.

I've been goldfishing for a few days with PSI, 2 GCB 1 ToA in my list, 1 slithermuse 1 skullwinder, playing Land Grantd

I came across a really interesting opening hand this evening, I'd like to get some feedback.

LED
Land Grant
Lotus Petal
Skullwinder
Dark Ritual
Culling the Weak
Tendrils of Agony

Now, it's got ZERO play to it. There is only one line that I can see, and that's the one which leads to T1 Tendrils for 16.

Would any of you keep this hand? and would anyone just wait for something off the top to make the hand GG instead of near-lethal?

In goldfishing, I would've elected to keep, and hold off for a piece of gas off the top in the hopes I draw a Pact, LG, or some other piece of free storm Count.

In practice, the top card was an Infernal Tutor, which makes it GG by cracking LED and going hellbent after producing 5 mana, picking up the IGGY loop.

Anyone have general rules of thumb for mulligan/keep they could pass on?

Any hand is looking for an initial mana source, accelleration, and business of some kind. As a general rule, any opening seven that I draw that does not have all three of those things gets thrown back. Drawing six, scry 1, is pretty much as good as drawing seven so you lose very little by trying again.

Things get more difficult after that, however.

At six cards or lower, I'm willing to consider trying to draw into busines if I have an initial mana source and strong accelleration. My build (fetchlands rather than Land Grant) is reasonably good at this because I can 'fake' being a fair deck while dropping Verdant Catacombs. If you start passing the turn without playing anything, they will suspect something is up. If you actually play any of your permanants, they will know something is up.

I will typically only mull below five cards if the hand I have drawn has dead cards that effecively puts me below five cards anyway (Tendrils of Agony, Slithermuse, etc).

[Karhumies]

Any hand is looking for an initial mana source, accelleration, and business of some kind. As a general rule, any opening seven that I draw that does not have all three of those things gets thrown back. Drawing six, scry 1, is pretty much as good as drawing seven so you lose very little by trying again.

Things get more difficult after that, however.

Typically, Tendrils is the weakest business spell we have in the opening hand. We generally want to tutor it or draw into it. When you take a "maybe, just maybe?" opening hand with Tendrils and replace it with IT, BW, EtW, GCB, AdN, possibly even Slithermuse, IGG, PiF or D4, that hand will quite frequently transform into sure keep.

[Silent Requiem]

Typically, Tendrils is the weakest business spell we have in the opening hand. We generally want to tutor it or draw into it. When you take a "maybe, just maybe?" opening hand with Tendrils and replace it with IT, BW, EtW, GCB, AdN, possibly even Slithermuse, IGG, PiF or D4, that hand will quite frequently transform into sure keep.

The difference is probably just semantics, but coming from Solidarity (where the spell chains are so long), it just didn't occur to me that the win condition might be considered a 'business' spell. That said, there have been one or two opening hands where I could hit 9 storm + tendrils from my opening hand. These usually involve Ill-Gotten Gains or Skullwinder.

[Kodieyost]

Awesome, thanks guys.

Any unintuitive spell chain sequences you guys have handy? I goldfished for 4-5 hours yesterday for my tournament tonight and I've come across some plays I didn't initially see.

Also: thoughts on 2 ToA/2GCB in mb? I find I win most often with GCB so I figure I must be missing some basic sequencing.

Edit: loved playing tonight. Played against Lands and BR reanimator before I dropped to play modern (modern has prize support, $12 in store credit for 3-1 in modern today!)

Went T1 belcher for GG against lands.... except he crop rotation -> glacial chasm. Stacked my library from Belcher and went for GG two turns later with ToA for 22. Stacked Cabal Ritual into contract drawing into all the things I'd need to get 9 storm. Stacking under belcher was kind of difficult at first, but got there.

Reanimator was harder, he didn't get anything strong done, had a T2 Iona set up so I had to force going off on my T1 with double Pact for ESG and DRS for chrome mox. Got belcher into play with both lands in deck, Left LED in play and when he took damage to put Iona into play I cracked belcher and got there. G2/3 I got obliterated by T1 side of insanity and then G3 I got hit by T2 Iona.

Overall deck is super fun, not sure why not to play ad nauseum instead of the d4's though

[Silent Requiem]

The ToA/GCB split is a playstyle choice. At one pount Vacrix was playing 4 GCB to free up sideboard space, and I currently only play ToA so that I can run real lands. 2:2 is a good starting point, but feel free to experiment.

And if you like winning with Belcher, and want to play Ad Nauseam, check out SAINT. We had a tourney report just a few posts above yours.

[Kodieyost]

Do you ever miss the free wins with GCB on t1? Multiple games have went land grant -> dryad arbor into play, land grant -> bayouto hand, lotus petal -> culling the weak -> charbelcher + LED, or some variation of such. Do you lose speed by ditching the GCB? What exactly is gained?

I've been playing and the more games I get under my belt, the more consulted lines I see and end up getting there much more often than I did even two days ago. It seems like roughly 50% of the time, I'm going for tendrils at the end of a gain - which means the rest of them end in a charbelcher with perpetual resources left to go for GG.

[Silent Requiem]

Do you ever miss the free wins with GCB on t1? Multiple games have went land grant -> dryad arbor into play, land grant -> bayouto hand, lotus petal -> culling the weak -> charbelcher + LED, or some variation of such. Do you lose speed by ditching the GCB? What exactly is gained?

I've been playing and the more games I get under my belt, the more consulted lines I see and end up getting there much more often than I did even two days ago. It seems like roughly 50% of the time, I'm going for tendrils at the end of a gain - which means the rest of them end in a charbelcher with perpetual resources left to go for GG.

It's not about not liking Belcher. My meta is 75% blue, and being able to drop real lands feels too important. Were that not the case, I would happily run some number of Belcher.

[Karhumies]

Do you ever miss the free wins with GCB on t1? Multiple games have went land grant ->

Against a real opponent playing blue, Land Grant -> show a hand without initial mana source other than LG as a cost -> Pierce/Daze/FoW is probably the biggest reason to play some lands. Opponent t1 spot discarding us on the play can also be rough without actual lands.

[Kodieyost]

Ah gotcha, so you're playing a slower version to overcome the blue spells.

I feel like I would just pick up and play ANT if I wanted to be a T2-4 combo deck with a good control MU. I picked this up because it has the highest T1 win chance, which forces my opponent to have the FoW or die. My apologies for the confusion!

Do you play slithermuse?

Edit: also, do you guys side LG out against a Blue opponent? I've been siding out some mix of:

4 Pacts, wild cantor, DRS, 4 culling the weak, 1 GCB 1 IGG 1 LED 1 chrome mox 1 dryad arbor

But I can't decide if I like xantid swarm or autumns veil more. I've been torn. I like veil for the most part but swarm let's me keep CtW

[mistercakes]

this was his list from the previous page:

This was my list:

1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Slithermuse
1 Eternal Witness

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wild Cantor
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard

4 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Past in Flames
2 Empty the Warrens

i don't think he's really sacrificing much. unless if land grants are adding that much storm (1 and sometimes 2) are that important for you, he's probably correct to run the verdants. it also lets him side into the discard package with more lands. vs the non blue decks you still have the very fast speed, but vs blue you can deal with some disruption.

[Kodieyost]

I edited to add a second question.

My list is almost identical, 4 land grant for 4 fetch, 2 GCB for 2 SSG, playing bayou etc.

On the play against an unknown opponent, do you just go for it? Often times I'll dump my hand into a Storm 5 -> Slithermuse if I can, but I just lose to a FoW there hard core.

Edit: so you find that Additional wincon in gcb is just not good in Blue metas?

[Silent Requiem]

this was his list from the previous page:
i don't think he's really sacrificing much. unless if land grants are adding that much storm (1 and sometimes 2) are that important for you, he's probably correct to run the verdants. it also lets him side into the discard package with more lands. vs the non blue decks you still have the very fast speed, but vs blue you can deal with some disruption.

You have summarised my thoughts almost exactly.



My list is almost identical, 4 land grant for 4 fetch, 2 GCB for 2 SSG, playing bayou etc.

On the play against an unknown opponent, do you just go for it? Often times I'll dump my hand into a Storm 5 -> Slithermuse if I can, but I just lose to a FoW there hard core.

Edit: so you find that Additional wincon in gcb is just not good in Blue metas?

Against an unknown opponent I'll almost always go for it on turn one (assuming my hand allows it), unless I'm on the play and waiting one turn (typically to drop a second land) significantly improves my odds.

There are two advantages to this. First, a turn 1 fizzle often becomes a turn 2 win after you untap, but you'll never survive their intervening turn if they have the ability to do significant damage. So you want to go early if you want to keep the possibility of a second chance open. Second, your best shot against blue game 1 is if they kept a marginal hand (not knowing what you were playing) and you go off before they can use cantrips to correct that mistake.

This deck is fast. It gains very little from waiting in most cases, as every permanent you play out is one less storm for your combo turn. If you are not leveraging your turn 1 win rate, there are more resilient combo decks that you could be playing.

As for GCB, it can be a very, very good win condition against blue. If you look at the original primer, you will see that the PSI sideboard was Carpet of Flowers, Xantid/Autumn's Veil, and your remaining Belchers. If you can generate the mana, Belcher is our best win condition agains blue because it requires no combo chain.

But that primer was written back when 'blue' meant High Tide, Counter Top, UW Control, and a few tempo decks. Carpet was brokenly good against decks that want to play out loads of Islands, so mana was not a problem. Now - at least in my meta - 'blue' mostly means Delver decks that can operate on a single Island, and even that often gets Dazed back to their hands once they have dropped a threat. Carpet becomes very weak against those decks, which means playing actual lands, which means dropping Belcher.

SI is so highly tuned that the card choices are deeply interconnected. I didn't drop Belcher because it was bad, but because the ripple effects of one build decision rendered Belcher unplayable (in my deck).

[Final Fortune]

The problem with Goblin Charbelcher is Land Grant, when you don't get to resolve your Goblin Charbelcher because your "Land" was discarded or countered it doesn't matter if it's a better kill condition than Tendrils of Agony.

The D4 chains may fizzle from time to time, but that's the nature of probablistic win conditions in Storm and I think a lot of people are underestimating how often this deck can and does kill with a single or double Tendrils of Agony after sculpting a hand and building Threshold with a D4 and having lands that weren't countered, discarded, Stifled or Wastelanded in play.

I use the old lists with Swamps and Kobolds because they're just better vs any deck that is going to put up a fight.

[Silent Requiem]

The problem with Goblin Charbelcher is Land Grant, when you don't get to resolve your Goblin Charbelcher because your "Land" was discarded or countered it doesn't matter if it's a better kill condition than Tendrils of Agony.

The D4 chains may fizzle from time to time, but that's the nature of probablistic win conditions in Storm and I think a lot of people are underestimating how often this deck can and does kill with a single or double Tendrils of Agony after sculpting a hand and building Threshold with a D4 and having lands that weren't countered, discarded, Stifled or Wastelanded in play.

I use the old lists with Swamps and Kobolds because they're just better vs any deck that is going to put up a fight.

Thank you for posting this.

While I play and enjoy PSI, often feel that other builds are too often overlooked because their headline t1 win rate is ever so slightly lower. Both mono B and BR versions are very solid decks with their own strengths and weaknesses, and having seen BR SI played well, I can say that it is an absolute joy to watch for anyone who appreciates storm decks.

[Kodieyost]

I win a lot of fizzled hands on T2/3 because I fizzled into a hand full of mana and I need business, so I'm just waiting for a business spell.

Question against unknown opponent: better to go for ToA for 16 on T1 or slithermuse D5+? I d6 and d7 turn 1 a lot g1 but when I know they're on blue I don't go for it - should I just spray n pray?

[Kodieyost]

Further question, what are the advantages to playing SI over ANT?

[Silent Requiem]

Further question, what are the advantages to playing SI over ANT?

To be clear, ANT is a 'better' deck than SI. But in answer to your question, the primary advantage of SI is speed.

SI is fast. So fast that in many cases the hate that ANT has to take 3-5 turns playing around never has a chance to become relevant. This makes your sideboarding strategy fairly straightforward - use 15 cards to fight blue, and be faster than everyone else.

If you hop over to the Belcher thread, you'll see that Belcher can and does place/win tournaments semi-regularly. SI is actually a better (ie, faster) deck than Belcher, but because it is far, far more diffcult to play, pros who feel the meta is right for a super fast deck pick up Belcher instead, because Belcher won't punish them for 'dabbling' the way SI does.

Outside of speed, though, there really is no reason to play SI. The D4 combo engine means that sometimes you will just lose. This is the price of playing a high variance deck.

[Kodieyost]

My point in asking the question, knowing ANT is extremely consistent and a turn 3-4 deck, is why play SI if you're just a less-consistent, less-resilient ANT deck when you tune everything down.

By playing the "land" plan, you open yourself up to Wasteland and Rishadan port plans of attack. You're inherently playing a slower deck, which means opponents have time to a) put their own gameplan into action, or b) fumble your game plan.

[mistercakes]

Play the deck you want to play. ANT is the most refined for tournament play. If your only goal is to win, then understand your meta.

I'd consider Spanish Inquisition in a high combo meta with fewer FoW.

I played doomsday for years as my storm deck of choice. I did that because I was continuously interested in playing with the deck, not because it was better than deck X/Y/Z.

[Karhumies]

I'd consider Spanish Inquisition in a high combo meta with fewer FoW.

Seconded. In a meta with a bunch of Dredge, Reanimator, Belcher, Elves, D&T, Monored Stompy, Imperial Painter and slow nonblue decks (Loam, Lands, Nic Fit) this deck is a great fit. My local meta is exactly like this.

[emidln]

Seconded. In a meta with a bunch of Dredge, Reanimator, Belcher, Elves, D&T, Monored Stompy, Imperial Painter and slow nonblue decks (Loam, Lands, Nic Fit) this deck is a great fit. My local meta is exactly like this.

In my experience, a high FoW meta isn't that bad for SI. It's decks that put a lot of pressure plus Force of Will or Force + spot discard that are problematic. At least if you build with Fetches/basics over Land Grants. Land Grant makes Force a lot better against you since they can cut you off from gaining an advantage with your business density. With fetches or a bunch of basics, you can actually cast and flashback Therapy, which goes a long way towards parity.

[Kodieyost]

Played a 4-round 16-man tonight.

R1 Young Frankenstein 1-2

G1 On the draw, Mull to 4, try to go off T1 -> FoW. Don't rebuild fast enough before he puts Iona into play.
G2 T1 win on the play
G3 he has t1 daze, T2 daze, t3 FoW. Resources are exhausted for the most part, durdle 5-6 turns before he reanimated Iona

R2 Esper Blade 1-2

G1 T1 on the play
G2 FoW checked all the way through to a Slithermuse for +6 and fizzled. Lose to a Pact trigger
G3 Flusterstorm x2, 1 FoW and a T2 stoneforge. /game

R3 4C Control 1-2

G1 T1 on the draw through 1 FoW
G2 T1 carpet of flowers, T2 D4 three times and get nothing. Get beat down by a baleful Strix
G3 Flusterstorm, 2x FoW - got him to 12 with dryad arbor before he landed JTMS

R4 R/G Lands 1-2

G1 T1 on the play
G2 he lands T1 sphere of resistance + chalice = 0. T2 2nd sphere. 8 turns later I eat a 20/20
G3 T2 go off, end into belcher, Glacial Chasm shoots me down, EOT 20/20 untap attack for game


Loved how the deck played R3 and 4, first two rounds I just had shitty hands and had to mull heavily into subpar hands. My SB also didn't show up until R3, buddy had the deckbox which kind of hurt a lot Lol

[kinda]

Played a 4-round 16-man tonight.

R1 Young Frankenstein 1-2

G1 On the draw, Mull to 4, try to go off T1 -> FoW. Don't rebuild fast enough before he puts Iona into play.
G2 T1 win on the play
G3 he has t1 daze, T2 daze, t3 FoW. Resources are exhausted for the most part, durdle 5-6 turns before he reanimated Iona

R2 Esper Blade 1-2

G1 T1 on the play
G2 FoW checked all the way through to a Slithermuse for +6 and fizzled. Lose to a Pact trigger
G3 Flusterstorm x2, 1 FoW and a T2 stoneforge. /game

R3 4C Control 1-2

G1 T1 on the draw through 1 FoW
G2 T1 carpet of flowers, T2 D4 three times and get nothing. Get beat down by a baleful Strix
G3 Flusterstorm, 2x FoW - got him to 12 with dryad arbor before he landed JTMS

R4 R/G Lands 1-2

G1 T1 on the play
G2 he lands T1 sphere of resistance + chalice = 0. T2 2nd sphere. 8 turns later I eat a 20/20
G3 T2 go off, end into belcher, Glacial Chasm shoots me down, EOT 20/20 untap attack for game


Loved how the deck played R3 and 4, first two rounds I just had shitty hands and had to mull heavily into subpar hands. My SB also didn't show up until R3, buddy had the deckbox which kind of hurt a lot Lol

List?

[Silent Requiem]

Four round swiss tournament this week. This was my list:

1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Slithermuse
1 Skullwinder

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wild Cantor
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard

4 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Past in Flames
2 Abrupt Decay

Round 1 - Bye

Round 2 - Merfolk

Game 1 (play): I don't know what he's playing, so I keep an Infernal Tutor/LED hand that eats FoW on turn 1. However, my opponent has a one land hand with a bunch of two land fish. Having played out two recurring mana sources from my opening hand, I'm able to rebuild and go off again before he is able to find the second land and get enough threats into play.

Game 2 (draw): We play draw-go for a while, with him countering D4s and me trying to discard his counters. After wearing him down, I'm able to Past In Flames for the win.

Round 3 - Burn

Game 1 (draw): I go off on my first turn after eating the expected turn 1 Lightning Bolt. IGG got me there.

Game 2 (draw): I know that turn 2 is going to see a Great Revel or Pyrostatic Pillar, so I side in Abrupt Decay. I'm able to go off on my first turn, though, and barely manage to drag myself across the finish line, having D4'd down to 1 life.

Round 4 - Combo Elves

Game 1 (play): I'm not sure what I'm facing, but I don't think it's blue, so I play Catacomb > Swamp > Deathrite. Next turn I use Deathrite to generate the mana needed to Cull Deathrite. With mana coming out of my ears, I IGG into a win.

Game 2 (draw): I have to mull to five cards to find an initial mana source, and keep a hand that plays out a D4 to refill. I don't draw any new business, though, so I'm in topdeck mode. Elves go off on turn 3, but a series of unlucky draws off Glimpse mean they wiff. They have enough Elves to simply turn sideways and win the game next turn, though. With some creative use of Summoner's Pact and Skullwinder, I'm able to generate enough storm win with the ToA that I had in hand.

Fun stuff. 4-0 finish, but with one of those being a bye, take it with a grain of salt.

I finally decided to pull the trigger on some Mox Opals so that I can play SAINT and mono black SI. I've been testing proxy versions, and one of the things I've noticed is just how many more keepable starting hands you have. With PSI, any Culling hand needs two mana sources to go on turn 1; using tallmen means that only one mana is required to start going off.

[Kodieyost]

List?


I'm playing the exact list posted 5-0 on mtggoldfish a page or two back. Haven't changed anything yet

[Kodieyost]

Four round swiss tournament this week. This was my list:

1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Slithermuse
1 Skullwinder

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wild Cantor
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard

4 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Past in Flames
2 Abrupt Decay

Round 1 - Bye

Round 2 - Merfolk

Game 1 (play): I don't know what he's playing, so I keep an Infernal Tutor/LED hand that eats FoW on turn 1. However, my opponent has a one land hand with a bunch of two land fish. Having played out two recurring mana sources from my opening hand, I'm able to rebuild and go off again before he is able to find the second land and get enough threats into play.

Game 2 (draw): We play draw-go for a while, with him countering D4s and me trying to discard his counters. After wearing him down, I'm able to Past In Flames for the win.

Round 3 - Burn

Game 1 (draw): I go off on my first turn after eating the expected turn 1 Lightning Bolt. IGG got me there.

Game 2 (draw): I know that turn 2 is going to see a Great Revel or Pyrostatic Pillar, so I side in Abrupt Decay. I'm able to go off on my first turn, though, and barely manage to drag myself across the finish line, having D4'd down to 1 life.

Round 4 - Combo Elves

Game 1 (play): I'm not sure what I'm facing, but I don't think it's blue, so I play Catacomb > Swamp > Deathrite. Next turn I use Deathrite to generate the mana needed to Cull Deathrite. With mana coming out of my ears, I IGG into a win.

Game 2 (draw): I have to mull to five cards to find an initial mana source, and keep a hand that plays out a D4 to refill. I don't draw any new business, though, so I'm in topdeck mode. Elves go off on turn 3, but a series of unlucky draws off Glimpse mean they wiff. They have enough Elves to simply turn sideways and win the game next turn, though. With some creative use of Summoner's Pact and Skullwinder, I'm able to generate enough storm win with the ToA that I had in hand.

Fun stuff. 4-0 finish, but with one of those being a bye, take it with a grain of salt.

I finally decided to pull the trigger on some Mox Opals so that I can play SAINT and mono black SI. I've been testing proxy versions, and one of the things I've noticed is just how many more keepable starting hands you have. With PSI, any Culling hand needs two mana sources to go on turn 1; using tallmen means that only one mana is required to start going off.


How frequently does SSG help out your opening hand? And do you ever find a fetch dead in hand when you've already played a land that turn and need to be hellbent for Infernal tutor?

[Silent Requiem]

How frequently does SSG help out your opening hand? And do you ever find a fetch dead in hand when you've already played a land that turn and need to be hellbent for Infernal tutor?

Good questions.

SSG isn't brilliant, but I prefer it to Manamorphose. Tracking my goldfishing, I found that lack of mana was the number 1 reason for fizzling mid combo, and SSG helps with that. Part of wanting to try SAINT is being able to play Mox Opal in some of those spots.

As to not getting Hellbent, it happens occasionally. And, yes, it is very painful when it does happen. It's very much a meta call, and I certainly don't hold it out as correct in all circumstances.

[Kodieyost]

I gotcha. I like Land Grant in gold fish but I hated it against FoW decks when I finally played them. Testing Verdants this week, although I am not sure if SSG is what I want in that slot.

I'm glad I started with LG-PSI to learn the deck so far, but I think I'm going to play the tallmen or the robots. Most of my mulligans are because I have CtW with no target - unless I find a Dryad Arbor or ESG w/ Pact/1cmc dude

Anyone have an updated list with the tallmen/robots?

[Silent Requiem]

I gotcha. I like Land Grant in gold fish but I hated it against FoW decks when I finally played them. Testing Verdants this week, although I am not sure if SSG is what I want in that slot.

I'm glad I started with LG-PSI to learn the deck so far, but I think I'm going to play the tallmen or the robots. Most of my mulligans are because I have CtW with no target - unless I find a Dryad Arbor or ESG w/ Pact/1cmc dude

Anyone have an updated list with the tallmen/robots?

I think the first question an updated list has to answer is how fast it is trying to be. Simply swapping out Cabal Therapy for Mox Opal, and dropping down to two wincons for some extra tallmen, makes the deck feel nearly as fast as PSI. However, you are losing the maindeck protection, which is relevant when playing actual games rather than goldfishing.

[Kodieyost]

Would you mind sharing your list?

My meta is 7-8 FoW decks (4 are tempo), 1 lands deck, 1 BR reanimator, and a smattering of randoms. There's only 1 problem I've faced against FoW decks and it's having 2+ counter spells, I've been considering heavier on the disruption SB plan because the 4 carpet 4 lotus bloom 3 autumns veil just hasn't been that great for me. In general that is, there were the odd games that did very awesome but I think I'd rather just slam therapy and name a few cards with some tallmen in play.

[Kodieyost]

ALSO: the lands player brings in sphere of resistance like a MOFO, really shoots me down. Should I just be trying to race that card?

[Silent Requiem]

ALSO: the lands player brings in sphere of resistance like a MOFO, really shoots me down. Should I just be trying to race that card?

I've very much gone down the discard route vs blue. As for Sphere, racing is my current strategy for anything that won't see play until turn two. If he's dropping it turn 1 I'd probably board in a mix of discard and artifact bounce/destruction.

[Kodieyost]

I've very much gone down the discard route vs blue. As for Sphere, racing is my current strategy for anything that won't see play until turn two. If he's dropping it turn 1 I'd probably board in a mix of discard and artifact bounce/destruction.



What's your list look like?

[Silent Requiem]

What's your list look like?


1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Slithermuse

4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
2 Ornithopter
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
5 Swamp

I sat down to goldfish 50 hands, looking for a T1 kill on the play. Here are my stats:

T1 kills - 20 (40%)
Fizzles - 15 (30%)
Mull to oblivion - 15 (30%)

By way of comparison, the last (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18190-Deck-Spanish-Inquisition-(B-x-Storm-Combo)&p=1012418&viewfull=1#post1012418) time I ran this exercise for PSI my stats were an identical 40%/30%/30%. This suggests to me that a Mox Opal build of mono black SI is equivalent to PSI in terms of speed and consistency for goldfishing.

I strongly suspect that in actual games it will be the stronger deck, as you don't have to worry about killing yourself with Pact, and you can drop a blocker when you are slow playing. You also probably have more flexibility with sideboarding.

I'm putting the deck down for a while, though, as my +3 Ad Nauseam have arrived and I want to try SAINT.

[Kodieyost]

Ah I see. And when you are goldfishing do you take the all-out approach for a T1 win or do you play it as if it's a real game and wait for T2/3 on some hands missing a resource?

I sat through and played 100 goldfished games going for the T1 kill as much as possible and pushed a lot closer to 60% (a significant number were T1 belcher with activation on T2 for GG, which I don't count as T1) with the traditional PSI list. However in practice I've ran into the issue of Pact -> Business -> FoW on business. Only one time was I able to LED and pay for my Pact before making a comeback to win, the rest of the time it's worthless to try fighting back on that without perpetual resources.

I'm thinking of jamming 8 tall men 4 cabal therapy 3 duress in the SB and just saying eff blue lol I think the tallmen are better there than the Pacts and ESGs

[Silent Requiem]

Ah I see. And when you are goldfishing do you take the all-out approach for a T1 win or do you play it as if it's a real game and wait for T2/3 on some hands missing a resource?

I sat through and played 100 goldfished games going for the T1 kill as much as possible and pushed a lot closer to 60% (a significant number were T1 belcher with activation on T2 for GG, which I don't count as T1) with the traditional PSI list. However in practice I've ran into the issue of Pact -> Business -> FoW on business. Only one time was I able to LED and pay for my Pact before making a comeback to win, the rest of the time it's worthless to try fighting back on that without perpetual resources.

I'm thinking of jamming 8 tall men 4 cabal therapy 3 duress in the SB and just saying eff blue lol I think the tallmen are better there than the Pacts and ESGs

I'm not counting anything that does not actually kill on turn 1. This means throwing away a lot of very good hands that would almost certainly kill on t2, which is 'fast enough' to race most hate. I'll eventually run some other tests - turn 1 on the draw, turn 2 on the play, etc - but because SI has always been about that 'headline' t1 kill rate, this is a quick and easy way to compare two builds.

[Kodieyost]

I gotcha. I've been considering 7 discard spells +MB over the Pacts, cantor DRS skull winder. Then again I feel like that diluted my g1 against nonU decks, so maybe I'll just board into it.

[Final Fortune]

1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Slithermuse

4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
2 Ornithopter
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
5 Swamp

I sat down to goldfish 50 hands, looking for a T1 kill on the play. Here are my stats:

T1 kills - 20 (40%)
Fizzles - 15 (30%)
Mull to oblivion - 15 (30%)

By way of comparison, the last (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18190-Deck-Spanish-Inquisition-(B-x-Storm-Combo)&p=1012418&viewfull=1#post1012418) time I ran this exercise for PSI my stats were an identical 40%/30%/30%. This suggests to me that a Mox Opal build of mono black SI is equivalent to PSI in terms of speed and consistency for goldfishing.

I strongly suspect that in actual games it will be the stronger deck, as you don't have to worry about killing yourself with Pact, and you can drop a blocker when you are slow playing. You also probably have more flexibility with sideboarding.

I'm putting the deck down for a while, though, as my +3 Ad Nauseam have arrived and I want to try SAINT.

That list seems sub-optimal without Vault of Whispers, there's no reason to add more Artifact Creatures to the deck over Artifact Lands if all you're doing is testing the gold fishing speed. I'm not convinced either the Summoner's Pact or the Mox Opal lists are really any faster than Kobolds, Summoner's Pact loses speed due to having to sacrifice its land drop and Mox Opal loses speed due to not being able to imprint its creatures for mana so one thing or another costs you speed.

[Kodieyost]

I disagree, Pact is EITHER a dude OR a mana. 2 Pact/Pact + ESG = 1 B mana, which neither robots nor kobolds create.

[Silent Requiem]

That list seems sub-optimal without Vault of Whispers, there's no reason to add more Artifact Creatures to the deck over Artifact Lands if all you're doing is testing the gold fishing speed. I'm not convinced either the Summoner's Pact or the Mox Opal lists are really any faster than Kobolds, Summoner's Pact loses speed due to having to sacrifice its land drop and Mox Opal loses speed due to not being able to imprint its creatures for mana so one thing or another costs you speed.

From a goldfishing perspective, you are probably right about Vault of Whispers. I went with Swamps largely because I was unsure of how I would want to sideboard. If I wanted to be able to bring in a green splash, then those Swamps could become Verdant Catacombs or Land Grants without negatively impacting performance, but if I had built the deck around Vault of Whispers, I'd be losing critical artifact density.

Equally, if my meta changed and I wanted to switch back to Land Grant and Belcher in the deck, Vault of Whispers would prevent that. I'm not saying Vault of Whispers is wrong, just that it shuts down a load of different options.

I also agree that the Pact builds have some weaknesses. Culling the Weak is far less powerful in those builds because all your creatures effecively cost 1 mana, making CtW +2 rather than +3 mana. Even the 'free' creatures cost you at least 1 mana. Dryad Arbor costs you 1 mana from the Swamp you can no longer play, Vine Dryad costs you 1 mana from the ESG you had to pitch, and Skyshroud Cutter costs you 1+ mana in the extra storm you need. Playing the original tallmen was quite an eye opener in that regard.

[Final Fortune]

I think you'll find as you gold fish the deck a lot of the Pact SI changes have an adverse affect on your draw 4 chains compared to the creature SI lists because while Pact SI might be better able to get out of the gate it stumbles at the end of the finish line because there are more hurdles to Culling the Weak->Tendrils of Agony as well.

Swamps and Kobolds, despite being simple in and of themselves are actually adding a lot of consistency and complexity to the deck because you can play Swamp, cast Therapy, play Kobold and Flashback in order to take the deck into later turns without being any slower of a deck.

[Kodieyost]

I think you'll find as you gold fish the deck a lot of the Pact SI changes have an adverse affect on your draw 4 chains compared to the creature SI lists because while Pact SI might be better able to get out of the gate it stumbles at the end of the finish line because there are more hurdles to Culling the Weak->Tendrils of Agony as well.

Swamps and Kobolds, despite being simple in and of themselves are actually adding a lot of consistency and complexity to the deck because you can play Swamp, cast Therapy, play Kobold and Flashback in order to take the deck into later turns without being any slower of a deck.



I definitely agree that Kobold SI and RoboSI are more consistently going turns 2+ and winning, as you'll often just lose to a Pact on T2/3 if you fizzle (usually will, sometimes we have perpetual resources from a long chain).

My point was merely that Pact isn't less consistent or slower T1, because it pulls double duty. There are hands where double Pact or Pact+ESG allow me to cast a Drit or Crit, which otherwise wouldn't have been possible with creatures instead.

[Silent Requiem]

As I get back into Legacy after many years away, I am conscious of how much skill and competitive knowledge I have lost - although the fact that our events are mid-week, evening affairs finishing up at around 23:00 after a long day at work probably doesn't help either! So, I've started making more detailed records of my competitive matches and then analyze them after the event. Because so few people play this deck, I'm posting my thoughts here, in case they are helpful to anyone else.

Tournament was a weekly event, four rounds of Swiss parings. I brought the following:

1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Slithermuse
1 Skullwinder

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wild Cantor
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard

3 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Past in Flames
3 Nature's Claim

The only change since my last event was the sideboard. In theory, Swamps offer diminishing returns (lol) after the third one, since that's how many I need to hardcast a D4. So I thought I would try trimming one to see how it felt.

Having thought about it, the only cards I can't race are Chalice and Leyline. Claim deals with both of those.

Round 1 - Turbo D&T?

Game 1: He wins the roll and plays Lotus Petal > City of Traitors > Ancient Tomb > Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Huh.
This slows me down by a turn as I have to play my fetchland out tapped. He swings for 3 the following turn, but I untap the Verdant Catacomb and proceed to win by playing a D4 into an IGG loop.

Game 2: I expect Chalice, so -4 Pact, -2 SSG, +3 Swamp, +3 Claim. While we've been rubbishing PSI a little recently, it actually plays through Chalice better than the other builds because although we lose the utility of Pact, the Culling package still works.

My opponent mulls to four, but it's the perfect four. T1 - Plains, Chalice (0). T2 - Plains, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Ouch!

We play draw-go for a few turns as I play out my lands. This allows me to hardcast a D4, which draws me into Nature's Claim and enough gas that I have a shot at going off through Thalia. He topdecks a second Chalice, which he plays for 1, and it's game over.

Game 3: I de-sideboard, as I can now attempt to race Chalice on the play. I manage to do just that, although it takes a convoluted Skullwinder chain to do so.

1-0

Round 2 - U/R Delver

Game 1: I've played this opponent before, so he knows what to expect. I win the dice roll, and he mulls to four looking for Force. He doesn't find it and I win on turn 1.

Game 2: -4 Pact, -4 CtW, -1 Cantor, -1 Skullwinder, -1 Slithermuse, +4 Therapy, +4 Duress, +3 Swamps.

My first hand was a tutor chain off Lotus Petal. With no perpetual resources, I would essentially be throwing my hand away if he had FoW. I mull, and draw two Swamps, acceleration, and discard. There is no business, but I have the scry, and I can be playing lands and discarding his cards for a turn or two while I look for business. I decide to keep.

That turns out to be a mistake, as half a dozen turns later I die to Delver beatdown without ever seeing a business spell.

Game 3: A solid hand with perpetual resources, acceleration, and business. I keep, and go off turn 1. However I draw into nothing but discard. Not ideal.

I use the discard to make sure he has nothing relevant, and then try again the following turn, having untapped and played a land. This time I draw into nothing but acceleration. He bolts me on his turn for the win.

U/R Delver is a difficult matchup, as they have both speed and disruption. The disruption forces us to slow down, and they are well positioned to take advantage of our life loss.

1-1

Round 3 - Stax variant?

Game 1: I win the dice roll and keep a decent hand. I play a turn 1 D4, drawing into a hand that will win next turn. He drops Trinisphere. Game over.

Game 2: Since I'm on the play, I intend to race the Chalice that I know he's mulling into. It's a good plan, and it works.

Game 3: -4 Pact, -2 SSG, +3 Swamp, +3 Claim. He mulls into a turn 1 Chalice (0). I play straight through it, chaining rituals and D4s until I use IGG to get Hellbent and Tutor for ToA.

2-1

Round 4: Elves

Game 1: I'm on the play, and we both mull to five. We each know the other is playing a combo deck, and there is a tension between going off first, and going off too early. I get the timing right, and he doesn't; he goes off when I expect him to, but he fizzles.

I go off the next turn, but discover the perils of Deathrite Shaman with Wirewood Symbiote. First, he targets the land that my own Deathrite was targeting for mana. Then, he used the mana gained to (later in the spell chain) deal two damage to me after my final D4.

This loss was entirely on me. Partly because I'm very rusty, and partly because his cards were all in Japanese, I did not appreciate the Wirewood, Deathrite, black mana floating interaction. If I had, all I would have needed to do was pass to my second mainphase to either drain that mana or force him to use it at a time when the damage would not have been relevant.

Game 2: I keep a turn 1 tutor chain hand that require me to dump a ToA into the graveyard when I crack LED. He has Surgical Extraction in hand, and removes my wincons. Game to him.

2-2

Afterthoughts

I felt there was a lot going on here, and a lot to think about. I had 5 T1 tournament kills in 11 games, or 45%. More importantly, I feel that there was really only one game (R2G3) where the deck let me down; I bricked on my D4 on two separate occasions, handing him a match that I had otherwise won, despite my poor keep the previous game. The rest of my losses were either due to good fortune on the part of my opponent (mulling to the perfect 4, ripping Trinisphere off the top) or my own play mistakes (see R4).

In other words, I am currently the weak link, and in the hands of a better pilot (as I hope to become), the deck will perform better.

On to specifics, though.

Surgical in R4G2 took me completely by surprise. A strong indicator of how rusty I am, I didn't even consider this very common sideboard card when playing against a deck that plays black cards. Ugh!

On one hand, I could have dealt with the situation by simply mulling for a hand that did not expose ToA to Surgical. On the other hand, that same exposure could have happened anywhere along the D4 chain when I needed to crack LED. How would I handle that?

On one hand, adding a second win condition - EtW, which has some issues with Pact, or Charbelcher, which would require modifying my build - is an option. I suppose Brainfreeze and Grapeshot are technically wincons as well, and while I've never tried pushing the storm count up that high on purpose, Grapeshot doubles as removal. The idea does make me smile.

ANT plays only one wincon, though, but they have the card filtering to get it out of their hand. Still, dropping to one ToA against black would minimize the chances of exposing it to Surgical. I'll need to give this some more thought.

I can't say whether or not I felt that only being able to bring in 3 Swamps was useful against blue, as I didn't really get that many games against them this time around. Is that a meta shift? I can hope! However, it was really nice to be able to board out Pacts against Chalice decks on the draw. Boarding to play through Chalice, rather than try to answer Chalice, was not something that had occurred to me before the tournament. I do like the idea of a proactive solution, rather that a reactive solution. If I were to put EtW back into the sideboard (Pact comes out in that matchup anyway), then I also have my second wincon against black, and an out to Leyline.

And as a side note, Chalice counters your spells, so you can still play out all those Moxes and petals to generate storm.

[Xod]

Surgical in R4G2 took me completely by surprise. A strong indicator of how rusty I am, I didn't even consider this very common sideboard card when playing against a deck that plays black cards. Ugh!

Remember that Surgical can be played by ANY deck, not only black ones.

On a side note, I went 2-4 in a recent event, fizzling/bricking with D4's is a pain. Currently on something else, but when I return, I will probably test SAINT. Mainly for the 'stalling with (s)tallmen' and the 4 Cabal Therapies main. Which gives at least some fighting power against blue game 1 (I have a very blue meta)

[Silent Requiem]

Remember that Surgical can be played by ANY deck, not only black ones.


That is a very good point! An easy 'fix', then, would be EtW in the sideboard and always go -1 Pact (it's a non-bo with EtW), +1 EtW in sideboard games. Alternatively, -1 SM (he tends not to be much good when people are mulling into their hate cards), +1 EtW.

Either way, it looks like I need to find a spot for it in my sideboard. I love the idea of Grapeshot, but even with a double IGG loop, the last 3-5 storm are likely to be very painful.

If I see that little blue over the next couple of events, though, I may just go back to GCB.

[Kodieyost]

As I get back into Legacy after many years away, I am conscious of how much skill and competitive knowledge I have lost - although the fact that our events are mid-week, evening affairs finishing up at around 23:00 after a long day at work probably doesn't help either! So, I've started making more detailed records of my competitive matches and then analyze them after the event. Because so few people play this deck, I'm posting my thoughts here, in case they are helpful to anyone else.

Tournament was a weekly event, four rounds of Swiss parings. I brought the following:

1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Slithermuse
1 Skullwinder

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wild Cantor
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard

3 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Past in Flames
3 Nature's Claim

The only change since my last event was the sideboard. In theory, Swamps offer diminishing returns (lol) after the third one, since that's how many I need to hardcast a D4. So I thought I would try trimming one to see how it felt.

Having thought about it, the only cards I can't race are Chalice and Leyline. Claim deals with both of those.

Round 1 - Turbo D&T?

Game 1: He wins the roll and plays Lotus Petal > City of Traitors > Ancient Tomb > Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Huh.
This slows me down by a turn as I have to play my fetchland out tapped. He swings for 3 the following turn, but I untap the Verdant Catacomb and proceed to win by playing a D4 into an IGG loop.

Game 2: I expect Chalice, so -4 Pact, -2 SSG, +3 Swamp, +3 Claim. While we've been rubbishing PSI a little recently, it actually plays through Chalice better than the other builds because although we lose the utility of Pact, the Culling package still works.

My opponent mulls to four, but it's the perfect four. T1 - Plains, Chalice (0). T2 - Plains, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Ouch!

We play draw-go for a few turns as I play out my lands. This allows me to hardcast a D4, which draws me into Nature's Claim and enough gas that I have a shot at going off through Thalia. He topdecks a second Chalice, which he plays for 1, and it's game over.

Game 3: I de-sideboard, as I can now attempt to race Chalice on the play. I manage to do just that, although it takes a convoluted Skullwinder chain to do so.

1-0

Round 2 - U/R Delver

Game 1: I've played this opponent before, so he knows what to expect. I win the dice roll, and he mulls to four looking for Force. He doesn't find it and I win on turn 1.

Game 2: -4 Pact, -4 CtW, -1 Cantor, -1 Skullwinder, -1 Slithermuse, +4 Therapy, +4 Duress, +3 Swamps.

My first hand was a tutor chain off Lotus Petal. With no perpetual resources, I would essentially be throwing my hand away if he had FoW. I mull, and draw two Swamps, acceleration, and discard. There is no business, but I have the scry, and I can be playing lands and discarding his cards for a turn or two while I look for business. I decide to keep.

That turns out to be a mistake, as half a dozen turns later I die to Delver beatdown without ever seeing a business spell.

Game 3: A solid hand with perpetual resources, acceleration, and business. I keep, and go off turn 1. However I draw into nothing but discard. Not ideal.

I use the discard to make sure he has nothing relevant, and then try again the following turn, having untapped and played a land. This time I draw into nothing but acceleration. He bolts me on his turn for the win.

U/R Delver is a difficult matchup, as they have both speed and disruption. The disruption forces us to slow down, and they are well positioned to take advantage of our life loss.

1-1

Round 3 - Stax variant?

Game 1: I win the dice roll and keep a decent hand. I play a turn 1 D4, drawing into a hand that will win next turn. He drops Trinisphere. Game over.

Game 2: Since I'm on the play, I intend to race the Chalice that I know he's mulling into. It's a good plan, and it works.

Game 3: -4 Pact, -2 SSG, +3 Swamp, +3 Claim. He mulls into a turn 1 Chalice (0). I play straight through it, chaining rituals and D4s until I use IGG to get Hellbent and Tutor for ToA.

2-1

Round 4: Elves

Game 1: I'm on the play, and we both mull to five. We each know the other is playing a combo deck, and there is a tension between going off first, and going off too early. I get the timing right, and he doesn't; he goes off when I expect him to, but he fizzles.

I go off the next turn, but discover the perils of Deathrite Shaman with Wirewood Symbiote. First, he targets the land that my own Deathrite was targeting for mana. Then, he used the mana gained to (later in the spell chain) deal two damage to me after my final D4.

This loss was entirely on me. Partly because I'm very rusty, and partly because his cards were all in Japanese, I did not appreciate the Wirewood, Deathrite, black mana floating interaction. If I had, all I would have needed to do was pass to my second mainphase to either drain that mana or force him to use it at a time when the damage would not have been relevant.

Game 2: I keep a turn 1 tutor chain hand that require me to dump a ToA into the graveyard when I crack LED. He has Surgical Extraction in hand, and removes my wincons. Game to him.

2-2

Afterthoughts

I felt there was a lot going on here, and a lot to think about. I had 5 T1 tournament kills in 11 games, or 45%. More importantly, I feel that there was really only one game (R2G3) where the deck let me down; I bricked on my D4 on two separate occasions, handing him a match that I had otherwise won, despite my poor keep the previous game. The rest of my losses were either due to good fortune on the part of my opponent (mulling to the perfect 4, ripping Trinisphere off the top) or my own play mistakes (see R4).

In other words, I am currently the weak link, and in the hands of a better pilot (as I hope to become), the deck will perform better.

On to specifics, though.

Surgical in R4G2 took me completely by surprise. A strong indicator of how rusty I am, I didn't even consider this very common sideboard card when playing against a deck that plays black cards. Ugh!

On one hand, I could have dealt with the situation by simply mulling for a hand that did not expose ToA to Surgical. On the other hand, that same exposure could have happened anywhere along the D4 chain when I needed to crack LED. How would I handle that?

On one hand, adding a second win condition - EtW, which has some issues with Pact, or Charbelcher, which would require modifying my build - is an option. I suppose Brainfreeze and Grapeshot are technically wincons as well, and while I've never tried pushing the storm count up that high on purpose, Grapeshot doubles as removal. The idea does make me smile.

ANT plays only one wincon, though, but they have the card filtering to get it out of their hand. Still, dropping to one ToA against black would minimize the chances of exposing it to Surgical. I'll need to give this some more thought.

I can't say whether or not I felt that only being able to bring in 3 Swamps was useful against blue, as I didn't really get that many games against them this time around. Is that a meta shift? I can hope! However, it was really nice to be able to board out Pacts against Chalice decks on the draw. Boarding to play through Chalice, rather than try to answer Chalice, was not something that had occurred to me before the tournament. I do like the idea of a proactive solution, rather that a reactive solution. If I were to put EtW back into the sideboard (Pact comes out in that matchup anyway), then I also have my second wincon against black, and an out to Leyline.

And as a side note, Chalice counters your spells, so you can still play out all those Moxes and petals to generate storm.



How do you like the 8 discard post board? And against blue, is cabal therapy always naming FoW the first time?

[mistercakes]

Thanks for the report. I'd also recommend just running another wincon over mulliganing away anybhand with tendrils.

[Silent Requiem]

Thanks for the report. I'd also recommend just running another wincon over mulliganing away anybhand with tendrils.

Agreed. The comments on this point have been very helpful, and at the very least EtW will be going back into the sideboard.



How do you like the 8 discard post board? And against blue, is cabal therapy always naming FoW the first time?

Typically, post-board games against blue are an attrition game. The advantage of the black disruption over the green disruption is that it allows me to focus on developing my recurring black mana sources. The more recurring black sources I have, the fewer cards (ie, ritual effects) I need to put into each D4 I cast, helping me win the card advantage war. Note that this is only possible if you actually have recurring black mana sources (aka, Swamps), so Belcher builds have to take a different approach.

The only sources of B/G mana are Bayou, which is vulnerable to the Wastelands tempo decks usually play, and Carpet of Flowers, which can be played around, and which require their own green mana source in order to get into play. Ironically, mono black SI probably has the easiest time playing green disruption, being able to play Mox Opal as an addition to any other green sources.

You could use consumable mana sources to cast disruption (of either colour), but unless you can win immediately, you've just 2-1'd yourself.

The discard plan clearly works when it comes to clearing counters. Taking my R2 post board games as an example, my opponent didn't get off a single counter spell, and each loss was down to not drawing what I needed to close out the game. Arguably, I may have brought in too much discard, as it caused me to fizzle in R2G3. If I had left in a couple of CtW (I still have Dryad Arbor and Deathrite in the deck), or had a higher threat density (bringing in EtW or more ToA for multiple mini Tendrils) that loss might have been a win.

I can't give you any blanket rules for Cabal Therapy, and if I did you should ignore them anyway - CT is probably one of the most skill intensive cards in Magic, and my skill is not what it used to be.

That said, FoW is often the correct call, especially before they have their second land. In the mid game, Brainstorm is a good call if you have a way to flash back CT - blue will often let you name blind, and then Brainstorm in response to the flashback, essentially forcing you to name blind a second time. And in the late game things change again; against UW Control with two cards in hand and 4 mana open, I'm probably naming Counterspell.

[itrytostorm]

Please help me with sideboarding :https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-ubg-36731#paper

Just for broad strokes like Delver, Stoneblade, Combo, Lands, Chalice decks.

I love this list and any help would be appreciated.

[Problem4tic]

Hello everyone, could be Paradoxical Outcome a good engine for the deck? (tallmen list)

[Silent Requiem]

Hello everyone, could be Paradoxical Outcome a good engine for the deck? (tallmen list)

It seems to me that you would need at least four 0 cc artifacts in play before it's not an over-costed, off-color Cruel Bargain. That's a lot in a deck that uses 0 cc artifacts as fuel. You also only have Lotus Petal and possibly Mox Opal to generate U.

[Silent Requiem]

The big problem with Spanish Inquisition - of any flavour - is the lack of consistency. It's really fast, and it grinds well after sideboarding. But sometimes you just lose to a bad D4. SAINT was an effort to improve consistency via Ad Nauseam, but that never really seemed to take off. But what about Past In Flames?

I know most of us have played PIF in SI at some point, but I'm talking about modifying the deck to work around PIF as a major engine. What would that look like?

Off the top of my head...

1) Belcher becomes worse since you can't PIF it.
2) Entomb becomes a great tutor effect, finding PIF, or something that you want to give flashback with PIF. Are there any other cards we would want to put into our graveyard? Narcomoeba gives us a creature, I guess, but we already have plenty of ways to find culling targets.
3) Producing R becomes more important, and Manamorphose becomes better.

Still, I'm not much of an innovator, and all this stuff is just tweaking the deck. Is there room for an SI PIF engine?

Edit:

And while I'm throwing out crazy ideas, could the deck be made more consistent with the addition of more draw? I'm thinking Night's Whisper and similar cards.

[Kodieyost]

You know why I freaking hate using this forum?

I just typed up the entire tournament Report for tonight (3-1 finish, some fun lines taken) and when I hit submit, it told me I wasn’t logged in.

I HAVE BEEN LOGGED IN SINCE I FIRST MADE THE ACCOUNT!!!

[emidln]

You know why I freaking hate using this forum?

I just typed up the entire tournament Report for tonight (3-1 finish, some fun lines taken) and when I hit submit, it told me I wasn’t logged in.

I HAVE BEEN LOGGED IN SINCE I FIRST MADE THE ACCOUNT!!!

I've sadly learned to type up my report in something external to the browser (like Notepad or Word) and then copy/paste it in when I'm done. Sorry about your luck.

[Kodieyost]

Anyone else see Jeff Hoogland piloting this deck lately? He’s on the PSI list, swapping IGG a for PiF, 1 ESG for 1 SSG, DRS out for Skyshroud, 1 Land Grant out for 1 Git Probe and 1 of something else out for a 2nd Git Probe (based on the list shared in the last couple pages that was on the mtgtop8 that I used for reference)

He’s ran through 3-4 streams with it, in the league he ran tuesday he went 3-2, losing to a god hand from UWB G1 and G2 (G2 was 2x FoW AND Spell Pierce from opp) and lost in final round to UB Reanimator - miserable MU for us anyway IMO.

Some pilot errors the first stream or so, now it’s mostly just “optimal” judgment calls on mulligans or “optimal” sequencing errors that aren’t objectively mistakes.

On Tuesdays stream he went 2-0, 0-2, 2-1, 2-1, 0-2 so a total of 6-5, two games he won with PiF that IGG wouldn’t have, 1 game on a belch with bayou still in deck, 1 game was facing down opponent LotV at 6 loyalty and topdecked an IMS to chain through 3 contracts and GG the opponent.

Feel like blue decks aren’t very popular online, but I’d consider sleeping up with his 75. 15 cards for U in the board, goes basically all-in on creature plan postboard.

[jimmythegreek]

Jeff Hoogland playing one of my favorite decks is almost enough to make me not want to watch.

[Kodieyost]

I like him well enough, pretty decent guy from my region and he’s not a miserable player like some streamers.

Ran back another 3-1 finish tonight with updated list. For reference:

3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
1 Skullwinder
1 Slithermuse
1 Skyshroud Cutter

4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Summoner’s Pact

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
3 Land Grant
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Gitaxian Probe

2 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Tendrils of Agony

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox

1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB
4 Duress
3 Lotus Bloom
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Tomb of Urami
2 Autumn’s Veil

Round 1 - 4C Delver (?)

Game 1 he wins the die roll, I run a minor FoW check with a Bayou into Drit into a D4 and draw the gas, he makes me play it out but I essentially at storm 6 tutored for PiF with 5 mana floating and finished it off.

I board in the full 15, removing all of the Pacts, Dryad Arbor, 1 Land Grant, 4 CtW, the non-Spirit Guide creatures, and 1 Tendrils. He mulls to 6 and snap keeps, ponders and ships it over. I kept t1 2x Land Grant, 1 Carpet, 1 Duress, 1 Bargain, 1 Petal scry Bayou to bottom. For draw I pick up a Tutor, LG for Bayou, cast Duress, take FoW, ship.

He jams a plains and sends it back, so he has 1 unknown (he didn’t shuffle off Ponder) a brainstorm and a Daze. I draw a ESG, play the Petal, tap Bayou for Carpet, he tanks for a second and let’s it resolve. I ship it back, he brainstorms EOT, untaps and plays a Bob and a Tundra. I draw into a Belcher, add a couple mana off Carpet and jam the D4. Resolves. Send it back. I’ve got 7 mana available next turn, he plays an island and chips me to 8. I draw Git Probe, check the coast and see just the Daze, add my Carpet mana, jam belcher, and flip the deck. He tilted pretty hard after G1, not sure what his deal was.

1-0, 2-0

Round 2 - 4C Pile

We both know each other’s deck but agree to make mulligan decisions as if we didn’t. He goes to 6, I go to 4, I scry and keep Drit on top, I jam Bayou into rit into D4 and get hit with FoW, last Card is LED, he thoughtseize and I scoop.

Bring the full 15 for G2, mull to 5, gun for petal into Carpet get FoW, Bayou rit D4, draw 3 d4 and Tutor. He thoughtseizes a D4. I draw Tomb, pass the turn w/out playing it. He land, ponder, DRS, pass.

Draw a rit, cast -> D4, 2 Petal 2 led, I play Tomb and pass. Could’ve double cracked Petal and cast tutor with priority crack 2 led but he has a strong grip so I ship it. He casts thoughtseize, takes a Card, EOT I make my 5/5. I untap and jam it in, he untaps and plays JtMS. /tilt

I go a couple turns, get another Tomb into play, he plays a Strix and he ships it back with a snap in play also, EOT I make the demon, attack the JtMS, he blocks with Strix and I concede at 2 life. He also had second JtMS in hand, so wasn’t hugely relevant what I did.

1-1, 2-2

Round 3 - RG Belcher

I helped him choose and learn the deck’s lines earlier this afternoon, G1 we both mull to 6, I go to 4, he LG and puts a Taiga into play, double Git Probes but no gas. Puts belcher into play. I draw and go off for the “get there” Belcher with a Land left in deck.

G2 neither of us SB, he’s on the play, we both mull to 5, he goes to 16 off double Probe, puts 18 goblins into play on t3 and ships it back. I go off with 2 LED and the topdecked PiF flashbacked from the yard and get to exact 16 Tendrils damage. He had GG on his turn both games.

2-1, 4-2

Round 4 - UW Miracles

G1 neither of us mull, he doesn’t know what I’m on and he keeps a 7-card Hand. I go for it t1, put myself all the way to 5, he FoW the tutor and I scoop it up.

Bring in the whole 15, he mentions he’s familiar with the deck so I’m wary of mulliganing for Tomb, keep a hand with Carpet, 2 Duress, LED, and ESG. I put t1 Carpet into play and ship it back, he plays an island and ponders. I draw a Tutor, Duress him with Carpet mana, take his FoW and ship. He plays a Plains off the top, ponders, shuffles and ships it back. I grab a D4 off the top, Duress him and take a Brainstorm, he’s got no counter Magic so I’m looking for a Ritual or Petal to take off. I draw Drit, cast off Carpet mana, cast D4 and he has a FoW. /tilt

We go back and forth, eventually I just overwhelm his countermagic with a Ton of mana spells and cast a couple D4s until I’m at 4 life and I cast tutor to storm him out.

G3 I mull to 5, try to put a t1 Carpet into play but he spell pierces it. I don’t draw a mana source until after I’ve discarded to hand size 2 times, he put a Clique into play the first time I was going to discard and shipped my Autumns Veil to the bottom and sees a hand of 3 Drit, SSG, 2 D4, I draw tutor off the Clique. I’ve got an LED in play.

He jams 3, I draw a bloom and suspend. He attacks, ships, I draw a pact and ship it. He attacks, bounces my LED to top of my deck, this goes on for a couple turns (2 copies of the spell + snap) I’m at 8 life when my bloom comes off suspend, I play the LED that was bounced again, I crack bloom for BBB, dRit myself up to 9, cast a D4 to 4 life, another one to 2 life, Cabal for +5 mana, another D4 to 1 life, I cast Autumns Veil and it gets flusterstormed, I’ve got 3 LED in play, I ship a Duress at him and see nothing so I exile ESG for tutor and crack triple LED on priority for lethal Tendrils.

3-1, 6-3

Overall the deck felt great, I didn’t really miss the shaved cards from board much but Tomb and Duress put me into games I had no business in (even though I didn’t get to win a game with my 5/5 Demon, Duress was amazing).

PiF won me a couple times that IGG wouldn’t have, especially against Blue decks. I didn’t miss DRS at all, nor the 4th Land Grant. Boarding plan finally feels solid. Even though bringing +3 lands in, not worried about Belcher because bringing in more permanent mana sources and it’s inherently for slower MUs anyway.

Still terrorizing the world of the non-U opponents and I’m starting to get the hang of winning the FoW matches as well! Would love to see where we can take the deck.

[Silent Requiem]

I like him well enough, pretty decent guy from my region and he’s not a miserable player like some streamers.

Ran back another 3-1 finish tonight with updated list. For reference:

3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
1 Skullwinder
1 Slithermuse
1 Skyshroud Cutter

4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Summoner’s Pact

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
3 Land Grant
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Gitaxian Probe

2 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Tendrils of Agony

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox

1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB
4 Duress
3 Lotus Bloom
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Tomb of Urami
2 Autumn’s Veil

Round 1 - 4C Delver (?)

...

Overall the deck felt great, I didn’t really miss the shaved cards from board much but Tomb and Duress put me into games I had no business in (even though I didn’t get to win a game with my 5/5 Demon, Duress was amazing).

PiF won me a couple times that IGG wouldn’t have, especially against Blue decks. I didn’t miss DRS at all, nor the 4th Land Grant. Boarding plan finally feels solid. Even though bringing +3 lands in, not worried about Belcher because bringing in more permanent mana sources and it’s inherently for slower MUs anyway.

Still terrorizing the world of the non-U opponents and I’m starting to get the hang of winning the FoW matches as well! Would love to see where we can take the deck.

Nice report. You have inspired me to try moving PiF from my sideboard into the maindeck; I've dropped my singleton Dark Petition since they have a somewhat overlapping function.

Have you thought about Manamorphose over Gitaxian Probe? I used to hate Manamorphose, but as I get better with the deck I find it becoming a better and better card. If you are running PiF in the maindeck it becomes even stronger, allowing you to generate BB from your graveyard by filtering the GG generated by your Summoner's Pacts.

[Kodieyost]

Nice report. You have inspired me to try moving PiF from my sideboard into the maindeck; I've dropped my singleton Dark Petition since they have a somewhat overlapping function.

Have you thought about Manamorphose over Gitaxian Probe? I used to hate Manamorphose, but as I get better with the deck I find it becoming a better and better card. If you are running PiF in the maindeck it becomes even stronger, allowing you to generate BB from your graveyard by filtering the GG generated by your Summoner's Pacts.



I removed Dark Petition because it was specifically the WORST way to spend 5 mana in my deck. If I could resolve that, I could also resolve a PiF. The bonus to PiF is that is can also cast from GY, which is super relevant in those 2-3 LED hands, allowing you to go off strictly from the GY. It definitely makes us weaker to Leyline of the Void, but if they start the game with that the good thing is we can still go off in a roundabout fashion.

Regarding Manamorphose: I’ve not tested it personally, but Probe letting me see the opponents hand has been superb every time, especially G1 when my opponent isn’t just auto-passing priority back to me - once I know it’s free to boom, I can just explode. It also starts off with 0 mana, whereas I need a R/G mana for Morphose (not impossible but sometimes strenuous mid-combo). I’ll test it out this week though.

A note: there ARE hands where IGG is strictly better than PiF, both because your opponent loses 3-4 cards and because it can present a t1 victory if you have enough storm count and a Tutor in your opener. There are others where PiF is the only answer that solves the puzzle.

[Silent Requiem]

A note: there ARE hands where IGG is strictly better than PiF, both because your opponent loses 3-4 cards and because it can present a t1 victory if you have enough storm count and a Tutor in your opener. There are others where PiF is the only answer that solves the puzzle.

I agree completely. There are a reasonable percentage of opening hands that just say 'Oops, I win' when you have IGG in your deck, which is why I have been so loath to drop it for PiF. Running both, and dropping DP instead, is something I think I am going to be much more comfortable with.

I've also moved EtW into the Slithermuse spot. Between that and the move of PiF to the maindeck, I've managed to free up two sideboard slots, which I feel pretty good about.

[Kodieyost]

I agree completely. There are a reasonable percentage of opening hands that just say 'Oops, I win' when you have IGG in your deck, which is why I have been so loath to drop it for PiF. Running both, and dropping DP instead, is something I think I am going to be much more comfortable with.

I've also moved EtW into the Slithermuse spot. Between that and the move of PiF to the maindeck, I've managed to free up two sideboard slots, which I feel pretty good about.


I’m still not comfortable about dropping Slithermuse, if only because it is sometimes exactly the Card I need to get out of a situation. But to be clear, most of my meta is on degenerate combo decks as well, so EtW isn’t the game I need to be on. I’ve also cast a Slithermuse NOT for Evoke and left up as a chump against DnT a couple times, draws fewer cards but gains you life/a turn. I’ve also put it into play against Show n Tell T2, went down to 5 life and drew 4 extra cards, then proceeded to belcher my opp off the top. Niche but was hilarious.

Are you on the creature plan postboard? What’s your full SB?

[Silent Requiem]

I’m still not comfortable about dropping Slithermuse, if only because it is sometimes exactly the Card I need to get out of a situation. But to be clear, most of my meta is on degenerate combo decks as well, so EtW isn’t the game I need to be on. I’ve also cast a Slithermuse NOT for Evoke and left up as a chump against DnT a couple times, draws fewer cards but gains you life/a turn. I’ve also put it into play against Show n Tell T2, went down to 5 life and drew 4 extra cards, then proceeded to belcher my opp off the top. Niche but was hilarious.

Are you on the creature plan postboard? What’s your full SB?

I'd describe my board plan more like ANT's Grinding Station.

4 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 ????

Keep in mind that I run Verdant Catacomb over Land Grant, so my total land count goes up to 9 plus Dryad Arbor. I batter them with discard and mini tendrils while dropping perpetual resources and playing D4s. Past in Flames is obviously huge here, which is why I had it in the side.

I hear you on EtW. Even in my meta there are enough main-deck sweepers that it is not a guarenteed win. But at the moment I feel less stupid losing becaue they find their out than because Slithermuse wiffed again. :D

[Kodieyost]

I'd describe my board plan more like ANT's Grinding Station.

4 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 ????

Keep in mind that I run Verdant Catacomb over Land Grant, so my total land count goes up to 9 plus Dryad Arbor. I batter them with discard and mini tendrils while dropping perpetual resources and playing D4s. Past in Flames is obviously huge here, which is why I had it in the side.

I hear you on EtW. Even in my meta there are enough main-deck sweepers that it is not a guarenteed win. But at the moment I feel less stupid losing becaue they find their out than because Slithermuse wiffed again. :D


My SB is currently

4 Duress
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Tomb of Urami
3 Lotus Bloom (sometimes these are EtW)
2 Autumns Veil

-4 Pact
-cantor
-Dryad Arbor
-1 Land Grant (only 3 mb, go to 2)
-skullwinder
-4 culling the Weak
-1 Skyshroud
-1 Tendrils
-1 belcher

Sometimes I keep 2nd ToA over the belcher, depends on MU. Postboard belcher only stays in against Long grindy MUs where I can just keep activating it for inevitability.

[Rishadan]

I like him well enough, pretty decent guy from my region and he’s not a miserable player like some streamers.

Ran back another 3-1 finish tonight with updated list. For reference:

3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
1 Skullwinder
1 Slithermuse
1 Skyshroud Cutter

4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Summoner’s Pact

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
3 Land Grant
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Gitaxian Probe

2 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Tendrils of Agony

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox

1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB
4 Duress
3 Lotus Bloom
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Tomb of Urami
2 Autumn’s Veil



When you’re sideboarding the whole package in for blue, what are you normally taking out to accommodate the slower more consistent plan?

[Silent Requiem]

With PSI you normally board out Summoner's Pact against blue for obvious reasons. Once you take that out, you might as well also take out Culling the Weak and your non-ESG Pact targets. That's probably about 12 cards right there. The last 2-3 cards will be deck dependant; I take out IGG, for example, but not everyone runs that.

[GoldenCid]

I like him well enough, pretty decent guy from my region and he’s not a miserable player like some streamers.

Ran back another 3-1 finish tonight with updated list. For reference:

3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
1 Skullwinder
1 Slithermuse
1 Skyshroud Cutter

4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Summoner’s Pact

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
3 Land Grant
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Gitaxian Probe

2 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Tendrils of Agony

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox

1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB
4 Duress
3 Lotus Bloom
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Tomb of Urami
2 Autumn’s Veil


Nice list!

How did lotus bloom work?

Edit: took a similar list on cockatrice last night except for: -1 skull -1 SSG +1 land grant +1 ESG -1 PIF +1 Dark petition -1 Belcher +1 Tendrils

Went: 3-2. :/

Lost to U- couterdecks x 2 and 1 Taxes. Won to dredge (iaiii) and Red sneak attack

[Silent Requiem]

I'm not sure I understand the 3/1 split on ESG/SSG. I've used 4/2, with SSG taking the place of Manamorphose. I may even go back to that, as it provides masses of Daze protection and an easy way to make R for PIF and EtW (at the cost of not providing any storm).

But I'm not sure why you'd want to add SSG over ESG, because it can't be fetched via Pact, and as a singleton is not enough to guarentee access to R in any event. How did it work out for you?

[Ninjastill]

So can someone convince me to play this deck? I have LED's getting the rest of the cards wont be an issue, I love wanky combo decks (I play Glittering Jeskai Ascendancy in modern) I've done a bunch of goldfishing with the deck still trying to figure out which hands to keep etc, obviously this deck is weak to FOW but how weak? and are there any tips to playing it that aren't obvious I suppose.

[Silent Requiem]

So can someone convince me to play this deck? I have LED's getting the rest of the cards wont be an issue, I love wanky combo decks (I play Glittering Jeskai Ascendancy in modern) I've done a bunch of goldfishing with the deck still trying to figure out which hands to keep etc, obviously this deck is weak to FOW but how weak? and are there any tips to playing it that aren't obvious I suppose.

The only three versions worth considering are PSI, SITES and Mono B (updated for Mox Opal). Each has their own strengths and weaknesses, but PSI is easily the most vulnerable to FoW in game 1 thanks to Summoner's Pact. It makes up for that by being slightly faster than the other versions.

After sideboarding, none of these decks are particularly weak to FoW. Unlike most combo decks, SI is not trying to resolve a single key spell, and packs a ton of genuine card advantage. Intead, the deck is weak to any combination of disruption AND a fast clock. It can be fast. It can be resilient. It struggles to do both at the same time, in large part because your life total is used as fuel rather than a buffer to buy time.

[Ninjastill]

The only three versions worth considering are PSI, SITES and Mono B (updated for Mox Opal). Each has their own strengths and weaknesses, but PSI is easily the most vulnerable to FoW in game 1 thanks to Summoner's Pact. It makes up for that by being slightly faster than the other versions.

After sideboarding, none of these decks are particularly weak to FoW. Unlike most combo decks, SI is not trying to resolve a single key spell, and packs a ton of genuine card advantage. Intead, the deck is weak to any combination of disruption AND a fast clock. It can be fast. It can be resilient. It struggles to do both at the same time, in large part because your life total is used as fuel rather than a buffer to buy time.

Gotcha, I just copied a list I saw on here which is ..


//Artifact (14)
4 Chrome Mox
2 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

//Creature (8)
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Skullwinder
1 Skyshroud Cutter
1 Slithermuse
1 Wild Cantor

//Instant (16)
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact

//Sorcery (20)
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Land Grant
1 Past in Flames
2 Tendrils of Agony

//Land (2)
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor


It's been playing solid, just wanted to know examples of other up to date lists that people have had success with

[GoldenCid]

Talking to a friend he said that belcher is pretty much stable than psi. Thoughts?

[Silent Requiem]

Talking to a friend he said that belcher is pretty much stable than psi. Thoughts?

Belcher is more stable in the sense that evaluating your opening hands is much easier. You are looking for a determinative spell chain, and you probably only have to deal with a single 'draw 1' spell which you may rely on for more storm, but never as a way of finding business.

SI, on the other hand, relies on chaining together a series of D4 spells, and it is perfectly possible (and not at all uncommon) to find that your draw into a load of rubbish, killing your spell chain. This means that even a hand that looks good can be a loser, and there is no way of knowing that ahead of time. In that sense, SI is more 'unstable' than Belcher, although I would tend to use the term 'inconsistent' instead.

On the other hand, SI is faster, rebuilds more effectively from a failed or foiled combo attempt, and has a much, much better sideboard plan against blue decks. If we could find a way to reduce the inconsistency of the deck, it would be a real powerhouse.

[GoldenCid]

So after all you would take psi over belcher?

[Silent Requiem]

So after all you would take psi over belcher?

If you want to top-8 some mid-sized tournaments, bring Belcher. It is more consistent, and far easier to play, both of which are important in larger tournaments.

If you want a pet deck to occassionally smash your local meta, play SI. It's far more fun to play and has a higher skill cap, both of which are important for more casual play.

[GoldenCid]

If you want a pet deck to occassionally smash your local meta, play SI. It's far more fun to play and has a higher skill cap, both of which are important for more casual play.

Sad to read this.

[Silent Requiem]

This is interesting.

https://i.imgur.com/vnLLWXs.png

Because I want to be able to drop real lands against blue (and avoid showing them my hand), I don't play Belcher in my 75. And ever since I lost a round 4 match (and a cut of the prizes) to Surgical on Tendrils with no alternate win condition, I faithfully sideboard Empty the Warrens in for games 2 & 3.

But EtW isn't actually a great card for PSI. It's the wrong colour, plays poorly with Pact, and is typically a dead draw. Even when you do use it, it seems like half the time your opponent finds an out. Or just races you - we're not TES, and dumping Goblins after a D4 is not terribly strong.

Is this card an alternative? Obviously, the mana efficiency sucks; you need 8 mana to fetch and cast Tendrils from the board. But, it imprints for black and can grab you business or combo parts if you have loads of mana and no action, all while giving you an out to Surgical.

It's something to play-test, at least, which is not something that SI gets every set.

[the resurrection]

This is interesting.


Because I want to be able to drop real lands against blue (and avoid showing them my hand), I don't play Belcher in my 75. And ever since I lost a round 4 match (and a cut of the prizes) to Surgical on Tendrils with no alternate win condition, I faithfully sideboard Empty the Warrens in for games 2 & 3.


You will love Death Wish

[Silent Requiem]

You will love Death Wish

Not really. There are already times when I can't cast any more D4's due to being on 1 life (or I know they are holding Bolt, or whatever). Death Wish suffers from that same problem.

And Death Wish exiles itself, so lines like mana > Mastermind's Aquisition > Past in Flames > mana > Mastermind's Aquisition > Tendrils of Agony don't work.

[Karhumies]

4 mana on-color Burning Wish which does not exile itself and can be used as a Diabolic Tutor in borderline cases. Versatile but not mana efficient.

My initial thought:
If you want to play a non-belcher non-EtW non-BW build, a 7 swamp SI-TES build would be a good starting point. Here is an old list I found:

Sorcery (21)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Cruel Bargain
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Infernal Contract
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Tendrils of Agony

Instant (12)
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual

Artifact (12)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Creature (8)
4x Crimson Kobolds
4x Crookshank Kobolds

Land (7)
7x Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4x Lotus Bloom
4x Slaughter Pact
4x Tomb of Urami
3x Leyline of the Void

It's a tight 75, but you should be able to squeeze a 1-of in by moving 1 Tendrils to the SB?

[SellaNona]

I am *sorely* tempted to buy LED's just to play this deck since it seems like the kind of fun pet deck I'd love to fuck around with.
Is the PSI list in OP still up to date?

[Silent Requiem]

I am *sorely* tempted to buy LED's just to play this deck since it seems like the kind of fun pet deck I'd love to fuck around with.
Is the PSI list in OP still up to date?

Swap Odious Trow for Deathrite Shaman and it's a solid starting point.

Alternative try an updated (ie, Mox Opal) version of the Land Grant list; it's nearly as fast as PSI, but it recovers better because you don't die to Pact triggers. Just taking the list in the primer and dropping Cabal Therapy for Mox Opal is a reasonable place to start.

[Final Fortune]

4 mana on-color Burning Wish which does not exile itself and can be used as a Diabolic Tutor in borderline cases. Versatile but not mana efficient.

My initial thought:
If you want to play a non-belcher non-EtW non-BW build, a 7 swamp SI-TES build would be a good starting point. Here is an old list I found:

Sorcery (21)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Cruel Bargain
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Infernal Contract
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Tendrils of Agony

Instant (12)
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual

Artifact (12)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Creature (8)
4x Crimson Kobolds
4x Crookshank Kobolds

Land (7)
7x Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4x Lotus Bloom
4x Slaughter Pact
4x Tomb of Urami
3x Leyline of the Void

It's a tight 75, but you should be able to squeeze a 1-of in by moving 1 Tendrils to the SB?

It's still the best list fwiw, you don't have to play Ill Gotten Gains if you want to play an Empty the Warrens or Past in Flames instead, the redundant Tendrils of Agony are really too important for goldfishing off of a Draw 4 chain or 2xTendrils plays.

[SellaNona]

Swap Odious Trow for Deathrite Shaman and it's a solid starting point.

Alternative try an updated (ie, Mox Opal) version of the Land Grant list; it's nearly as fast as PSI, but it recovers better because you don't die to Pact triggers. Just taking the list in the primer and dropping Cabal Therapy for Mox Opal is a reasonable place to start.

Sorely tempted to try Land Grant but LEDs plus a playset of Mox Opals are a bit too expensive. Would also have to pick up a second Bayou although I really should be doing that anyways

[Karhumies]

Sorely tempted to try Land Grant but LEDs plus a playset of Mox Opals are a bit too expensive. Would also have to pick up a second Bayou although I really should be doing that anyways

Here's a 1x Bayou, 4x Ad Nauseam build:

Artifact (20)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Mox Opal

Creature (10)
4x Memnite
4x Ornithopter
2x Phyrexian Walker

Instant (16)
4x Ad Nauseam
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual

Sorcery (13)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Land Grant
1x Tendrils of Agony

Land (1)
1x Bayou

Sideboard (15)
3x Leyline of the Void
4x Nature's Claim
4x Slaughter Pact
4x Xantid Swarm

[SellaNona]

I guess I'll just start by buying my LEDs and then see if I'll make enough over the next few months to afford the Land Grant version~

[Silent Requiem]

4 mana on-color Burning Wish which does not exile itself and can be used as a Diabolic Tutor in borderline cases. Versatile but not mana efficient.

My initial thought:
If you want to play a non-belcher non-EtW non-BW build, a 7 swamp SI-TES build would be a good starting point. Here is an old list I found:

Sorcery (21)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Cruel Bargain
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Infernal Contract
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Tendrils of Agony

Instant (12)
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual

Artifact (12)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Creature (8)
4x Crimson Kobolds
4x Crookshank Kobolds

Land (7)
7x Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4x Lotus Bloom
4x Slaughter Pact
4x Tomb of Urami
3x Leyline of the Void

It's a tight 75, but you should be able to squeeze a 1-of in by moving 1 Tendrils to the SB?

Although I play PSI, this is quite similar to what my deck looks like after sideboarding. I am grudgingly coming around to the fact that Pact probably weakens the deck more than it strengthens it. I suspect that, overall, the push for T1 'wins' has distacted from what is otherwise a very strong engine.

I wonder if the most competitive incarnation of SI will be aiming for a T2 win backed a disruption package.

[Silent Requiem]

Heresy of the day: PSI is no longer the fastest version of Spanish Inquisition

Broadly speaking the historical difference between Pact Spanish Inquisition (PSI) and traditional SI (TSI) was 12 cards:

-4 Cabal Therapy
-4 Shield Sphere
-4 Phyrexian Walker

4 Summoner’s Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Odious Trow
1 Wild Cantor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dryad Arbor

Of these 12 cards, eight (Pact & ESG) produce mana. Having an additional 13% of your deck devoted to producing mana explains why PSI has historically been the fastest, most explosive version of Spanish Inquisition. But that explosiveness came at a cost.

The obvious cost is the complete lack of protection, but that’s not actually much of a drawback when you don’t intend to let your opponent play any cards. Instead, the drawback came in the following forms:

1) Pact locks you out of pass-the-turn plays. Once you cast Pact, you have to with that turn, which closes down a number of lines of play. Empty the Warrens becomes a dead card, and you can't retry a failed D4 chain or Belcher activation.

2) Culling the Weak becomes less efficient. In PSI, all your creatures cost 1 mana, even Dryad Arbor, although that cost comes in the form of not being able to play a mana producing land in the same turn. This means that Culling the Weak goes from +3 mana in TSI to +2 mana in PSI.

3) Mana management becomes harder. Producing a lot of green mana is not terribly helpful if what you need is a lot of black mana. Other than paying the occasional colourless cost on Cabal Ritual or the like, the green mana has to be filtered through Wild Cantor or Manamorphose before it becomes truly useful. This is especially true at the start of the chain (as at the end of the chain both Belcher and Tendrils have a colourless component to the cost).

4) Goblin Charbelcher becomes less reliable. In order to reliably find a Culling target, PSI has to play Dryad Arbor. Sure, other builds may choose to include Arbor, but PSI needs it. This reduces the odds of any given Charbelcher activation actually producing a kill, unless you have managed to draw both of your lands prior to activation. And as a failed activation may involve you dying to your Pact trigger, you may not get a second chance.

Overall, these drawbacks were worth the additional speed that PSI brought to the table. Now, however, things have changed. At this point, the difference PSI and TSI (updated) is these 12 cards:

-4 Mox Opal
-4 Shield Sphere
-4 Phyrexian Walker

4 Summoner’s Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wild Cantor
1 Skullwinder
1 Dryad Arbor

Instead of eight more mana producing cards, PSI only has four more. Taking into account the additional +4 mana produced by Culling the Weak (across four copies) when 0 cc creatures are used, TSI actually produces the same amount of mana as PSI, without any of the drawbacks that comes from producing off-colour mana or Pact triggers.

I believe that there are other benefits (and some disadvantages) to a Mox Opal SI build, but my focus here is just the speed. The results of my testing support the theory-crafting, and in addition, far more of my 'losses' are clear wins on the following turns.

Clearly, more testing, and actually tournament results, are needed. Sideboarding, in particular, needs to be reconsidered as there is an additional synergy to consider when adding or removing cards. But as much as I miss the crazy lines of play from Pact, the Mox Opal build feels much stronger.

Thoughts?

[Silent Requiem]

Hmmm. Not a lot of activity on this thread right now.

I've gone back and reread this thread entirely. It's about the third time I've done that over the years, and it is always interesting to see the development of the deck, and the issues that crop up as the meta changes.

Anyway, I'd like some advice regarding two alternate decks that I've been testing. Having come around to the idea that Pact/Belcher is not really the best way forward in any meta with a reasonable amount of U, I'm now looking at more traditional builds. I have put the differences in card choice in CAPS for emphasis.

Artifact SI

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak

4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
3 TENDRILS OF AGONY
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 MOX OPAL

4 SHIELD SPHERE
4 PHYREXIAN WALKER

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamps
1 Dryad Arbor

Or alternatively|

Kobold SI

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak

4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
4 TENDRILS OF AGONY
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

3 CRIMSON KOBOLDS
3 CROOKSHANK KOBOLDS
1 FLEX SLOT

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamps
1 Dryad Arbor

The Verdant Catacombs are there in each deck to access Dryad Arbor, and also allow a G splash out of the sideboard for dealing with Chalice of the Void.

Now, Artifact SI is the faster of these two decks. I would say it is on par with PSI, as PSI runs +8 green mana sources, whereas this deck runs +4 multicolor mana sources and gets +1 black mana from each Culling the Weak. Certainly, testing has shown it to be very similar. With more testing, I could probably drop one, or even two, artifact creatures to get the same flex slot as Kobold SI, but I just don't know yet.

On the other hand, Kobold SI, while slower and without the ability to perma-tank a Goblin Guide or a Snapcaster Mage, is still very fast. It also offers some absolutely disgusting opening hands in terms of Cabal Therapy and Kobolds that can buy you a great deal more time than you lose in speed. In that sense, it is a little harder for your opponents to know what kind of hand to keep - mull into hate because you will be fast, or will that just mean your hand get's torn to nothing by discard?

Even more of an advantage is the saved sideboard space. Since Artifact SI will want Cabal Therapy (and probably Duress) from the side for the U matchup, it has 4 fewer spots than Kobold SI. This allows KSI to shore up another matchup, such as by bringing in Leyline of the Void for Reanimator/Dredge matches.

Of these two approaches, which seems more promising, and why?

[Xod]

Before I put this deck to the side I was planning to play this list:

SAINT

4 Shieldsphere
2 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling The Weak
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Land Grant

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ad Nauseum Tendrils
4 Infernal Tutor

1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Goblin Charbelcher

1 Bayou

60

Sideboard

4 Nature's Claim
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Slaughter Pact


But I follow your reasoning to play without the Pacts and without the land grant.

You can use this example sideboard for your deck but probably with 1 Bayou in the side. (isn't a bayou interesting to have main? Instead of a swamp?)

As you can see above, I was also playing a list with maindeck cabals for that extra durability. So I would prefer your Kobold list, especially because, KOBOLDS! :-D

But what would you use in the flex slot? A past in flames maybe? Since you can/will be playing EtW as well.

[Final Fortune]

I don't agree with using fetchlands over Vault of Whispers in a Mox Opal list, but if you're interested in actually playing Magic as opposed to gold fishing then the Kobold list is easily better as Kobolds have more utility than Robots as Chrome Mox imprints in and of themselves - furthermore the red mana can be expanded on for SB configurations like 4 Empty the Warrens and Simian Spirit Guides.

The Dryad Arbor seems really unnecessary, IMO, as well as Abrupt Decay considering the decks that play Chalice of the Void usually don't play counter spells as well. Ill Gotten Gains hasn't been a consistent win condition since Deathrite Shaman was printed, I wouldn't bother MDing it over say an Empty the Warrens just for the 6 mana "whoops, I win" lines.

If you want to practically play the deck, the truth of the matter is lands, kobolds and Cabal Therapys are your friends.

[Silent Requiem]

Thank you both for your responses.


But I follow your reasoning to play without the Pacts and without the land grant.

You can use this example sideboard for your deck but probably with 1 Bayou in the side. (isn't a bayou interesting to have main? Instead of a swamp?)

As you can see above, I was also playing a list with maindeck cabals for that extra durability. So I would prefer your Kobold list, especially because, KOBOLDS! :-D

But what would you use in the flex slot? A past in flames maybe? Since you can/will be playing EtW as well.

I think Bayou is actually a really good idea for the Mox Opal list. Sideboard space is more limited, and the deck is still trying to go off as fast as possible, so Wasteland is not an issue.

For the Kobold list, I think Bayou in the main in probably wrong. In order to try and duplicate the in-game effects of Cabal Therapy, I have been goldfishing on the assumption that my opponent was going to make a game winning play on their second turn (Thalia, Gaddock Teg, Counterspell mana, etc), so I need to go off before their second turn. However, if I can hit them with Cabal Therapy before their second turn, I give myself +1 turn to go off on the basis that they won't be able to shut me down until their third turn.

Goldfishing like this has been very interesting. I often find myself wanting to play out one (or even two, on the play) lands as recurring resources that help fuel the turn 3 combo. This means I want to drop lands that can't be hit by Wasteland, making Swamps the stronger choice. Since I have plenty of sideboard space, this seems like the right call.

As for the flex slot, I'm thinking it ought to be a mana generator of some kind, with ESG/SSG being the obvious choice. KSI produces noticeably less mana than PSI or MSI, and the majority of failed D4 chains will fizzle due to lack of mana. So while I would absolutely put PiF in the side for the U matchup, I don't see it having a place in the maindeck over something that makes mana.


I don't agree with using fetchlands over Vault of Whispers in a Mox Opal list, but if you're interested in actually playing Magic as opposed to gold fishing then the Kobold list is easily better as Kobolds have more utility than Robots as Chrome Mox imprints in and of themselves - furthermore the red mana can be expanded on for SB configurations like 4 Empty the Warrens and Simian Spirit Guides.

The Dryad Arbor seems really unnecessary, IMO, as well as Abrupt Decay considering the decks that play Chalice of the Void usually don't play counter spells as well. Ill Gotten Gains hasn't been a consistent win condition since Deathrite Shaman was printed, I wouldn't bother MDing it over say an Empty the Warrens just for the 6 mana "whoops, I win" lines.

If you want to practically play the deck, the truth of the matter is lands, kobolds and Cabal Therapys are your friends.

I've seen you advocate this in the past, but in my testing I just never felt the need for Vault of Whispers. Since the vulnerability to Wasteland becomes relevant in the grindy U matchup, I just don't see an advantage to including it when it has not generally been needed. Of course, if that then let me cut a couple of Tallmen for something (Cabal Therapy?) it could be a worthwhile trade-off. Something to test, then.

Kobolds imprinting on Chrome Mox is certainly relevant, but so is perma-blocking Goblin Guide, or Snapcaster Mage, or whatever other 2/2 creature they happen to have dropped. In general, I've not fell the 'loss' of imprinting power in MSI, simply because it already produces so much mana.

I agree that Dryad Arbor is unnecessary. But 'necessary' is a very strong word. I was originally testing 7 Swamps and 8 Kobolds, and I found that there were still some hands with Culling the Weak as my main acceleration, but no targets, while at the same time, once I got the D4 chain started, I was drawing into more Kobolds that I could use, and they were filling up my hand.

Dryad Arbor allows me to go up to 11 virtual Culling targets for the purposes of my opening hand, while at the same time letting me reduce the number of Kobolds in the deck. As a side benefit, a G splash off the board becomes possible, and I still have a Culling target that I can 'cast' with Chalice at 0. So not 'necessary', but I still find it useful.

I've not made a choice between Abrupt Decay and Nature's Claim; they each have advantages and disadvantages that I've not thoroughly tested yet. But Chalice of the Void is a common piece of hate, and one of the few that we can't race. PSI is often able to play through it, because the Culling engine is based on 1cc creatures (and Dryad Arbor), but that is not the case with these two builds. The Mox Opal version loses 50% of the deck if you count the loss of Culling the Weak for lack of targets.

I strongly disagree with you on Ill-Gotten Gains, which has given me a lot of wins. Deathrite is not a relevant play until turn 2, when you are hoping that your opponent will already be dead.

[Final Fortune]

I think you're too focused on gold fishing and not focused enough on playing the deck, the problem with Dryad Arbor is that you are sacrificing a land in order to try to go off. This only compounds the value of their counter spells, where if you have a land still in play you can top deck your way out by drawing another D4 or going the 2xTendrils of Agony route. I think if you played Pact SI before the original lists, theres a lot of midgame to the deck that you probably missed out on.

Mox Opal lists don't "grind," the moment you cut Cabal Therapy then you're a gold fish deck. If you don't value imprinting Kobolds over chumping aggro decks you should be gold fishing against anyway, something tells me you aren't mulliganing aggressively enough. The functional utility of imprinting for mana, especially when you mulligan down, is way too high on the gold fish rate to ignore for easy mode vs vanilla aggro decks

[marit]

I play this deck on MODO still, occasionally. I have gone back to the list that BC posted almost a decade ago. I've found it is the most consistent for me (lol), but still is not very consistent. I've 4-1'd a few MODO events, but normally wind up 3-2. I just don't think this deck is consistent enough to truly become dominant. Here's my list

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
2 Bayou
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Contract
1 Goblin Charbelcher

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Tomb of Urami
3 Tombstalker
4 Duress

When I face blue I go -4 culling -8 tallmen -1 belcher -1 IGG -1 IT +15 SB

From my experience, I have literally never had deathrite shaman interfere with IGG (and there is a LOT of blue on MODO). I love having both copies of IGG, especially because I have gone turn 1 IGG to use as a discard 4. It's an expecially nice trick after imprinting a few things on chrome mox, and you likely get any rits you casted back.

EtW has also been useful for me, in increasing consistency. Often times the deck just fizzles (especially after discard), and you can't get a full storm for 10. EtW makes that okay, and 95% of the time, is just as good. A turn 1 EtW for 14 tokens is gg in 90% of cases, which is okay for me. I hope we get some new cards soon though, as I don't think this deck will be anything more than an above average pet deck until then. If I planned to do well in a large (7+) round tournament, I would not bring this deck. It is too inconsistent.

[GoldenCid]

Sorely tempted to try Land Grant but LEDs plus a playset of Mox Opals are a bit too expensive. Would also have to pick up a second Bayou although I really should be doing that anyways

LED worths indeed. Mox opal doesnt unless you like affinity. So buy led build the deck with it and have fun

[nargluj]

@Silent Requiem

I (not too deeply) read through some of your arguments on Traditional SI vs. PSI and your later post(s). I'm playing PSI on and off since a few years. Fun surprise factor since I usually play various land destruction decks. Here's some thoughts.

Regarding your argument that PSI's Culling the Weak nets one less mana; What about Skyshroud Cutter? I love the card. Sure, you need a Bayou or dryad fist but it's not bad to imprint on a mox.

About charbelcher being less reliable in PSI, sure. It fizzles a bit too often.

I don't agree with dropping speed and aiming for turn two-three. My opinion is that you're just a worse ANT/TES deck if you're playing that many turns. Unless you prioritise fun. ;)

Chalice and Sphere threat and removal: Chalice can be played through and doesn't warrant removal since it costs us more than we win from it. Sphere is just death, gg wp and scoop. As a PSI-player I can't even get my mana down to remove the sphere if I had a way to remove it. Belcher or bust.

Past in Flames > Ill-Gotten Gains. There's a good couple of scenarios where IGG is better but I find myself wanting a PiF over IGG about 80-88% of the time. I should be a bit biased towards PiF since I find those lines much easier to think through (due to more experience with it).


I'm keeping an eye on this threads for a few days.

[Silent Requiem]

@Silent Requiem

I (not too deeply) read through some of your arguments on Traditional SI vs. PSI and your later post(s). I'm playing PSI on and off since a few years. Fun surprise factor since I usually play various land destruction decks. Here's some thoughts.

Regarding your argument that PSI's Culling the Weak nets one less mana; What about Skyshroud Cutter? I love the card. Sure, you need a Bayou or dryad fist but it's not bad to imprint on a mox.

I'll be honest and say that I have not tested this card nearly as much as I should have, despite owning a copy. It's been around for a long time, though, and despite having been tested many times, it never caught on because it is simply so conditional. It does not enable the powerful Petal, Kobold, Culling, D4 plays that you really want in order to maximize your T1 win rate. When it does work, of course, it does exactly what you say it does - make Culling the Weak just as efficient as in a Robot or Kobold build.


About charbelcher being less reliable in PSI, sure. It fizzles a bit too often.

I don't agree with dropping speed and aiming for turn two-three. My opinion is that you're just a worse ANT/TES deck if you're playing that many turns. Unless you prioritise fun. ;)

That is a reasonable perspective. However, builds with Cabal Therapy are still very, very fast. They just don't always have to be fast the way that PSI does. I'm not certain that it's a better approach, but since PSI does not seem to be putting people in the top 8, I think it is worth looking at the alternatives.


Chalice and Sphere threat and removal: Chalice can be played through and doesn't warrant removal since it costs us more than we win from it. Sphere is just death, gg wp and scoop. As a PSI-player I can't even get my mana down to remove the sphere if I had a way to remove it. Belcher or bust.

I agree that Sphere is almost certainly GG. However, only PSI really has the ability to play through Chalice at 0 (which I have done myself in tournament games). Ironically, this is in large part because the PSI Culling engine is less efficient - it relies on 1 cc creatures (or land creatures) rather than 0 cc creatures. ESG also enables PSI to generate more mana out of nothing than the other builds. But RSI (with Mox Opal) loses 50% of the deck (when you count Culling with no targets as a loss) to Chalice at 0. While it is still technically possible to win through that, the likely hood is low enough that this is not a reasonable strategy. KSI is only slightly better off.


Past in Flames > Ill-Gotten Gains. There's a good couple of scenarios where IGG is better but I find myself wanting a PiF over IGG about 80-88% of the time. I should be a bit biased towards PiF since I find those lines much easier to think through (due to more experience with it).

They do slightly different things. IGG gives you a lot of starting hands that just win. It's determinative, and absent disruption, there is no risk at all. It dramatically increases the T1 win rate of the deck. But you never want to see it in your opening hand, and you don't really want to draw into it mid combo.

PiF is almost the reverse. It's not a great tutor target from your opening hand, because you generally don't have enough ritual mana to abuse it properly - CRit won't have threshold and you probably don't have enough creatures to reuse Culling. However, it becomes increasingly more powerful as you run the D4 chain and your graveyard fills up. It's generally fantastic to draw into, and dramatically reduces the fizzle rate of your D4 chains.

They are both very, very good cards, and are largely a playstyle choice.

[Final Fortune]

Kobold SI can easily win through Chalice of the Void by dumping the Kobolds into the Chalice of the Void and storming manually into a Tendrils of Agony, if anything Kobold SI is better than Pact SI vs Chalice of the Void because you can pro-actively discard it with Cabal Therapy or build up a manabase where Pact SI can't (if it's using Land Grant).

In addition to Skyshroud Cutter, aren'tt there another two green creature you can play for free if the opponent controls an Island or you discard a green card (I can't remember their names, but I remember the latter being the argument for Land Grant and Autumn's Veil and the former being a SB card)? Furthermore, if you're trying to enable Skyshroud Cutter and Goblin Charbelcher then I think you should look at a Forestcycling creature as a Summoner's Pact target because it's redundancy for tuturing for the Bayou and color filtering. Regardless if I remember right Skyshroud Cutter was only really meant to be a "Kobold" after you started your D4 chain because you likely draw into a land as you go thru' your cards.

Trying to answer Sphere of Resistance is a bad idea, you're better off playing with 4 Chancellor of the Annex in the board for being on the draw so they can't cast it before you can T1 them - that's standard B/r Reanimator, Oops, no Lands and Belcher tech.

[Silent Requiem]

Kobold SI can easily win through Chalice of the Void by dumping the Kobolds into the Chalice of the Void and storming manually into a Tendrils of Agony, if anything Kobold SI is better than Pact SI vs Chalice of the Void because you can pro-actively discard it with Cabal Therapy or build up a manabase where Pact SI can't (if it's using Land Grant).

In addition to Skyshroud Cutter, aren'tt there another two green creature you can play for free if the opponent controls an Island or you discard a green card (I can't remember their names, but I remember the latter being the argument for Land Grant and Autumn's Veil and the former being a SB card)? Furthermore, if you're trying to enable Skyshroud Cutter and Goblin Charbelcher then I think you should look at a Forestcycling creature as a Summoner's Pact target because it's redundancy for tuturing for the Bayou and color filtering. Regardless if I remember right Skyshroud Cutter was only really meant to be a "Kobold" after you started your D4 chain because you likely draw into a land as you go thru' your cards.

Trying to answer Sphere of Resistance is a bad idea, you're better off playing with 4 Chancellor of the Annex in the board for being on the draw so they can't cast it before you can T1 them - that's standard B/r Reanimator, Oops, no Lands and Belcher tech.

You are thinking of Vine Dryad and Rushwood Legate. The first essentially still has a mana cost because you are discarding ESG (or Pact for ESG) much of the time.

Chancellor of the Annex is interesting tech that I'd not considered before. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Final Fortune]

Vine Dryad has a lower cost than 1 mana since it can discard an extra Land Grant, Dryad Arbor or Autumns Veil and pitching Summoners Pact doesn't force you to go off compared to fetching an ESG, I think it depends a lot on which resources are most/least necessary to win because technically speaking pitching an Autumns Veil vs aggro is bonus mana.

[Silent Requiem]

Vine Dryad has a lower cost than 1 mana since it can discard an extra Land Grant, Dryad Arbor or Autumns Veil and pitching Summoners Pact doesn't force you to go off compared to fetching an ESG, I think it depends a lot on which resources are most/least necessary to win because technically speaking pitching an Autumns Veil vs aggro is bonus mana.

I agree that the more green cards you run the better value it is. I'm not sure who's boarding in Autumn's Veil against aggro, though.

[Final Fortune]

I agree that the more green cards you run the better value it is. I'm not sure who's boarding in Autumn's Veil against aggro, though.

Not sure which version of Pact SI peope are running these days, but the all green set up with MD Vine Dryad and Autumn's Veil was a thing.

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Autumn's Veil
1 Vine Dryad
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

[jimmythegreek]

I think anyone who plays pact si really needs to include skullwinder in their 75. Skullwinder will get you out of some shitty draw fours. Furthermore, green creatures are great in this deck with pact/culling shenanigans.

[GoldenCid]

Not sure which version of Pact SI peope are running these days, but the all green set up with MD Vine Dryad and Autumn's Veil was a thing.

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Autumn's Veil
1 Vine Dryad
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

Would you like some aditional creatures to make culling and pact worth?

[GoldenCid]

Has anybody seen this?

3bb
Enchantment
Liliana's contract

When this enters the battlefield you draw 4 cards and loose 4 lifes

The rest is irrelevant

[Asgarnian123]

Hi, I'm really interested in this deck and have been goldfishing with a PSI list over the last few months, but to my dismay my turn-one kill percentage has settled at just 30%. Are there any common mistakes newcomers to the deck make that tank their T1K%? I'd like to someday get the 60-70% rate that's claimed by experienced players (since that's the deck's main strength), but what's really concerning is that 40% of my goldfishing attempts are mulling to oblivion as I try to get a hand that can even TRY to win on turn one (no-turn-one hands are easy to identify). If every time I didn't mull to oblivion were a win, I'd be at 60%, but my experience of hands that could win on turn one is that half of them do (30% of total goldfish attempts) and half of them are whiffs, with one or more bad draw-4s or not enough mana to keep a chain going as big reasons. Might I be missing something big? Here's the list I've been using, for reference:

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Odious Trow (until recently was Deathrite Shaman)
1 Wild Cantor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Skullwinder
1 Slithermuse

4 Summoner's Pact
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Land Grant
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Goblin Charbelcher

1 Bayou


3 Tomb of Urami
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Tombstalker

[GoldenCid]

How did it work with the man plan postside?

Has anyone considered adding a 1 of liniana`s contract?

[mistercakes]

Hi, I'm really interested in this deck and have been goldfishing with a PSI list over the last few months, but to my dismay my turn-one kill percentage has settled at just 30%. Are there any common mistakes newcomers to the deck make that tank their T1K%? I'd like to someday get the 60-70% rate that's claimed by experienced players (since that's the deck's main strength), but what's really concerning is that 40% of my goldfishing attempts are mulling to oblivion as I try to get a hand that can even TRY to win on turn one (no-turn-one hands are easy to identify). If every time I didn't mull to oblivion were a win, I'd be at 60%, but my experience of hands that could win on turn one is that half of them do (30% of total goldfish attempts) and half of them are whiffs, with one or more bad draw-4s or not enough mana to keep a chain going as big reasons. Might I be missing something big? Here's the list I've been using, for reference:

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Odious Trow (until recently was Deathrite Shaman)
1 Wild Cantor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Skullwinder
1 Slithermuse

4 Summoner's Pact
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Land Grant
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Goblin Charbelcher

1 Bayou


3 Tomb of Urami
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Tombstalker

give some 7 card hand examples and describe what you would do with them. feel free to play them out and explain why you fizzled for each. some others can then give their advice.

[Asgarnian123]

give some 7 card hand examples


Just tested 20 openers. 11 of them can't even attempt to win on turn one (as far as I can tell; this is the main thing that makes me feel like I'm missing something):

1. Pact, D4, Belcher, Trow, Petal, ESG, Belcher
2. ESG, ESG, Petal, IGG, ESG, Mox, Culling
3. Pact, D4, LED, LG, Dryad, ESG, Slithermuse
4. ESG, Pact, Tendrils, Dark, Tendrils, Culling, Cantor
5. D4, D4, ESG, ESG, Petal, Belcher, Pact
6. Mox, Dryad, Mox, ESG, Culling, LED, Culling
7. Tendrils, IT, Cabal, Cabal, Mox, Culling, Dark
8. Pact, ESG, Culling, Skullwinder, Bayou, Cabal, Dark
9. Dryad, ESG, Trow, Tendrils, LG, IT, LG
10. Cabal, Bayou, LED, Dark, Cabal, ESG, Mox
11. ESG, Dark, LG, Pact, LED, Dryad, LG


Of the 9 that had a chance, 2 fizzled:

1. Culling, LED, ESG, Mox, Culling, IT, Petal
Mox imprint Culling (B) -> Petal (UB) -> ESG (UBG) -> IT for Slithermuse, crack LED (UBBB) -> Slithermuse D7 (0): IT, ESG, LG, Belcher, D4, Bayou, Culling (fizzle)

2. Mox, D4, Pact, Petal, ESG, D4, Belcher
Mox imprint D4 (B) -> Petal (BB) -> ESG (BBG) -> Pact for Cantor (BBB) -> D4 (0): Slithermuse, ESG, LG, Mox (fizzle)


The 7 successful attempts (7/20 = 35%) went like this:

1. Pact, ESG, LED, Dark, LG, Petal, Belcher
LG for Bayou (B) -> Dark (BBB) -> ESG (BBBG) -> Belcher (0) -> LED (BBB) -> activate Belcher (revealed 28)

2. Cabal, LED, Dark, Tendrils, Bayou, Petal, D4
Bayou (B) -> Petal, LED (B) -> Dark (BBB) -> Cabal (BBBB) -> D4, crack LED (BBBB): Slithermuse, Mox, Cantor, D4 -> Mox imprint D4 (BBBBB) -> crack Petal for Cantor for blue (UBBBBB)
-> Slithermuse D7 (BB): Belcher, Pact, Culling, Dark, Mox, IT, ESG -> Dark, ESG (BBBBG) -> Pact for Skullwinder, return LED (BB) -> Culling (BBBBB) -> IT for Tendrils, crack LED (BBBBBB)
-> Tendrils (storm 14)

3. LG, Slithermuse, D4, Dark, IT, Dark, IT
LG for Bayou (B) -> Dark, Dark (BBBBB) -> D4 (BB): LED, D4, LED, D4 -> IT for IGG, cracking LEDs (BBBBBB) -> IGG for IT, LED, LED (BB) -> Tutor for Tendrils, cracking LEDs (BBBBBB)
-> Tendrils (storm 11)

4. ESG, IGG, ESG, IT, LG, Tendrils, LED
LG for Bayou (B) -> ESG, ESG (BGG) -> IT for Slithermuse, cracking LED (UUUG) -> Slithermuse D7 (0): Pact, Culling, Mox, IT, Cabal, Dark, Mox -> Mox imprint Culling (B) -> Dark, Cabal (BBBBBB)
-> Pact for Trow, Mox imprint Trow (BBBBBBB) -> IT for Tendrils (BBBBB) -> Tendrils (storm 10)

5. Mox, Dark, Petal, Dryad, Culling, IT, D4
Mox imprint D4 (B) -> Dark (BBB) -> Dryad, Culling (BBBBBB) -> Petal (UBBBBBB) -> IT for Slithermuse (UBBBB) -> Slithermuse D7 (B): ESG, Culling, LG, Cabal, Tendrils, Pact, ESG
-> ESG, ESG (BGG) -> Pact for Trow -> Trow, Culling (BBBBG) -> Tendrils (storm 9)

6. Cabal, Cabal, Pact, D4, Culling, LG, Mox
Pact for Trow -> Mox imprint Trow (B) -> LG for Dryad -> Dryad, Culling (BBBB) -> Cabal (BBBBB) -> D4 (BB): IT, D4, LED, Skullwinder -> Cabal (BBB) -> IT for Tendrils, crack LED (BBBB)
-> Tendrils (storm 9)

7. LG, Pact, Tendrils, Dark, Petition, Cabal, ESG
LG for Bayou (B) -> ESG (BG) -> Pact for ESG (BGG) -> Cabal (BBBG) -> Dark (BBBBBG) -> Petition for D4 (BBBB) -> D4 (B): Mox, Mox, Petal, Dark -> Dark (BBB) -> Petal (BBBB)
-> Mox, Mox -> Tendrils (storm 10)

[Namida]

I won't defend the 70% turn 1 win percentage because that seems pretty high to me too. That being said...when you say you're mulling into oblivion, how far down are you mulliganing to? This deck has more play than you'd expect from under 6 cards; I believe Vacrix posted a turn 1 win he had off a mulligan to 3 for example.

Don't forget that small adjustments in your list may also have an impact; this isn't to say that those choices are *wrong,* but that you may be sacrificing some speed for staying power. I haven't played the deck for a long time, but when I played PSI the list didn't play IGG, Dark Petition, or Wild Cantor. Having 3 copies of Tendrils made it easier to just keep a 7 card hand, cast a D4, and naturally Tendrils my opponent with no fuss, for example.

Of the two hands you say fizzled, one is still a turn 2 kill. The other one seems like it's just part of the deck's failure rate, though I'm not sure how I feel about it (I haven't played with Wild Cantor but I dislike the idea of spending an entire card to just fix mana). The hand might have been something you're supposed to mulligan or pass the turn on--yeah, it's a hand that "does something" turn 1, but that something is spending six cards to put you all in on a D4 with no mana remaining and only a Belcher left in hand with a pact trigger to pay next turn. You *have* to hit initial mana so any 4 cards without Lotus Petal, Land Grant, Bayou, or Chrome Mox+Black card kills you on the spot. From there, the only Belcher lines you have all require you to draw initial mana and LED because without Threshold, no other combination of 3 cards in this deck will put you up the necessary +6 mana to cast and activate a Belcher (and Belcher without activating it is no longer an option for you because of the pact trigger). You can't even naturally draw Tendrils to win with this hand because you used Mox and ESG for mana with an uncastable Belcher in hand. I'm not particularly math-minded but it seems to me there aren't many permuations of 4 cards here that don't punish you.

[wonderPreaux]

I won't defend the 70% turn 1 win percentage because that seems pretty high to me too. That being said...when you say you're mulling into oblivion, how far down are you mulliganing to? This deck has more play than you'd expect from under 6 cards; I believe Vacrix posted a turn 1 win he had off a mulligan to 3 for example.

I haven't read this thread in a while, but wasn't the 70% T1 kill stat associated with a much more volatile list using Burning Wish and more Draw 7 effects? I don't think the more "standard" list with 0-1 draw 7s was ever at 70%. I goldfished a few hundred times with this deck a while ago and the best I could do was ~55% + some extra 2-3% game-winning set-ups like Belcher with activation mana next turn (worth noting, I played zero main-deck draw 7s in all my builds).

[Asgarnian123]

when you say you're mulling into oblivion, how far down are you mulliganing to?

I can't seem to find my data right now, but I think the numbers I've gotten have been ~50% of 7-card hands can try to win turn 1, ~20% of 6-card hands, and negligible amounts of 5-card or less hands (leading to a total of ~60% turn 1 attempts when mulling for a turn one kill). My testing involved just checking the 7-card for a possible line, moving to 6 if there wasn't one, and so on down to 3. Now of course when actually playing the deck I'd do decent amount less mulling, since it's important to look for turn 2-3 wins, but this was just testing for the prupose of figuring out the maximum turn-one rate.


I haven't played the deck for a long time, but when I played PSI the list didn't play IGG, Dark Petition, or Wild Cantor. Having 3 copies of Tendrils made it easier to just keep a 7 card hand, cast a D4, and naturally Tendrils my opponent with no fuss, for example.

Dark Petition I have found to be an iffy card, might cut it for a 3rd Tendrils. While it doesn't show much in the 9-attempt sample I posted, hands with an IGG "loop" accessible account for a lot of my turn-one kills, and quite often casting Pact for Cantor is my only way to turn ESG mana into Rituals. I know you're not really arguing against them, I just thought I'd point out what I've found to be their strengths. What other cards besides a 3rd Tendrils do you think could be worth trying out in these slots?

[Namida]

I can't seem to find my data right now, but I think the numbers I've gotten have been ~50% of 7-card hands can try to win turn 1, ~20% of 6-card hands, and negligible amounts of 5-card or less hands (leading to a total of ~60% turn 1 attempts when mulling for a turn one kill). My testing involved just checking the 7-card for a possible line, moving to 6 if there wasn't one, and so on down to 3. Now of course when actually playing the deck I'd do decent amount less mulling, since it's important to look for turn 2-3 wins, but this was just testing for the prupose of figuring out the maximum turn-one rate.

Understandable. I really do think it's a stretch to say that this deck wins on the first turn 7 out of 10 times, and I think that is just because of the inherent inconsistency of playing so many different types of cards that need to be strung together in a certain type of way or they just don't do anything at all. In any case, I hope the way I explained the one hand that didn't pan out helps display that even some of your "can try to win on turn 1" hands have extremely low turn 1 potential that may not even be worth pursuing, but I imagine it is unlikely you get a better hand than "has a low chance of killing on turn 1" if you mulligan. I wish I had more to contribute, but I'm a rare breed in that I'm a Storm player who is garbage at math so I just solitaire decks until I can play them by feel.


Dark Petition I have found to be an iffy card, might cut it for a 3rd Tendrils. While it doesn't show much in the 9-attempt sample I posted, hands with an IGG "loop" accessible account for a lot of my turn-one kills, and quite often casting Pact for Cantor is my only way to turn ESG mana into Rituals. I know you're not really arguing against them, I just thought I'd point out what I've found to be their strengths. What other cards besides a 3rd Tendrils do you think could be worth trying out in these slots?

To me, there's a balancing act between playing enough cards in your deck that extend your combo turn but not choking yourself on them so you don't end up having to mulligan hands that have a ton of uncastable cards. This deck can start to combo off of low resources and ends up drawing enough cards that you can overcome the fact that Skullwinder will be crap most of the time, but you don't want to overdo it because being glutted on uncastables turns your D4s into D3s and D2s. Basically, I feel like you should play IGG or Slithermuse but not both.

Thinking more about it, I believe that access to Wild Cantor in your deck actually was a trap that killed you in the example hand you showed--the fact that you had it in your deck caused you to spend your entire hand to attempt to combo from a situation where it was very unlikely you would be able to win. I don't mean that as a harsh criticism--it's something I hadn't considered until I thought a lot about the hand you asked about, but it highlights to me how Wild Cantor *seems* more free than it is. The deck has issues turning green mana into black, and don't get me wrong, *not* having Wild Cantor means you will fizzle sometimes from color issues, but I question if that is more common than fizzling from not hitting critical mass. Even when it's castable which isn't assured in this deck, Wild Cantor is still a card that turns D4s into D3s unless you *needed* it to make black mana, so you need to consider if this effect is powerful enough to add to your list of bad draws. It's tutorable, but how beneficial is that? Casting Summoner's Pact for this card as a mana fixer forces you to win that turn while also draining your resources since you're down a mana from not using Pact for ESG. If you look at the Pact-> Cantor line as -1 mana to make black, it's considerably less appealing. It's entirely possible that all of these costs you incur are worth playing Wild Cantor, but I don't think the card is being viewed as something that actually costs you.

The first PSI lists you can see here were playing a few copies of Manamorphose. I can't claim that it's better than Wild Cantor since it has its own issues, but it doesn't have the main issue I have with Wild Cantor in that it replaces itself. The deck seemed fine to me playing only Trow and Dryad Arbor as Culling the Weak fodder, but if Wild Cantor mattered to you as another creature, there are also cards like Vine Dryad and Skyshroud Cutter, Tukatongue Thalid, Young Wolf etc.

Other than that, a lot of the decks I recall played 5 win conditions in any mix of Goblin Charbelcher and Tendrils of Agony. I've seen people play anything from 4 Belcher/1 Tendrils to 4 Tendrils 1 Belcher. I'd stay away from red cards because of color issues, and because I think that those cards want to play a longer game than a deck with Summoner's Pact would want.

[Asgarnian123]

Thanks for all the help! You've definitely given me a decent amount of information to work with; I think I'll start with -1 IGG, -1 Cantor, -1 Dark Petition, +1 Tendrils, +2 Manamorphose and go from there (I imagine I'll probably miss having another Pactman for Culling, but there are some nice non-Cantor options there as well). It's nice to know I'm not as far off as I thought from how this deck is meant to perform when it does well; hopefully I can make it to the 55-60% turn one range (and get better at identifying when I should mull or pass).
As for going all-in on a D4 with no mana left, that seems to be the only line for a lot of hands that can *attempt* to win turn one. I imagine that most of those hands are probably ones you keep and pass with.

[Namida]

Turn 1 D4 with no mana left over is understandable. What I want to stress more is that your plans also should consider what resources you will have after a D4. A D4 that cost you three or four cards leaving you with more options if only you draw more initial mana (and perhaps the ability to actually pass the turn if you don't) is an entirely different animal than one that cost you six cards and/or Summoner's Pact to cast.

[GoldenCid]

Thanks for all the help! You've definitely given me a decent amount of information to work with; I think I'll start with -1 IGG, -1 Cantor, -1 Dark Petition, +1 Tendrils, +2 Manamorphose and go from there (I imagine I'll probably miss having another Pactman for Culling, but there are some nice non-Cantor options there as well). It's nice to know I'm not as far off as I thought from how this deck is meant to perform when it does well; hopefully I can make it to the 55-60% turn one range (and get better at identifying when I should mull or pass).
As for going all-in on a D4 with no mana left, that seems to be the only line for a lot of hands that can *attempt* to win turn one. I imagine that most of those hands are probably ones you keep and pass with.

I suggest not to cut cantor. Is so good as filter. You can tutor her and filter to cast slittermuse or whatever you want. Let know us how you go with your work but i do not recomend cut that girl.

My critter pack after shaman ban looks like this:

2 Tow
1 cantor
4 SSG
1 S. cutter
1 Slitermuse
1 arbor

[UnOrthodox Bird]

I suggest not to cut cantor. Is so good as filter. You can tutor her and filter to cast slittermuse or whatever you want. Let know us how you go with your work but i do not recomend cut that girl.

My critter pack after shaman ban looks like this:

2 Tow
1 cantor
4 SSG
1 S. cutter
1 Slitermuse
1 arbor

What is your feeling on Skyshroud Cutter? I hated giving my opponent a buffer of essentially 3 storm. Also, SSG? I assume you mean ESG?

[GoldenCid]

What is your feeling on Skyshroud Cutter? I hated giving my opponent a buffer of essentially 3 storm. Also, SSG? I assume you mean ESG?

Yeah right, mistake with belcher...ESG correct.

Cutter....i like it because is tutoreable, free stuff, produce no card diadvantaje however, it raises the storm notoriously.
It is fair, just that.

Vine dryad is other option but i have no experience.

[UnOrthodox Bird]

No worries. My main deck is belcher, so I am constantly talking about SSG. Was just wondering because I saw a list recently using 4x Burning Wish and 2x PiF mainboard and though maybe people are actually playing it and it isn't hot garbage (it is hot garbage).

[GoldenCid]

No worries. My main deck is belcher, so I am constantly talking about SSG. Was just wondering because I saw a list recently using 4x Burning Wish and 2x PiF mainboard and though maybe people are actually playing it and it isn't hot garbage (it is hot garbage).

If i had to run 4 wish and pif, i d rather play classical belcher...

[Namida]

I suggest not to cut cantor. Is so good as filter. You can tutor her and filter to cast slittermuse or whatever you want. Let know us how you go with your work but i do not recomend cut that girl.

My critter pack after shaman ban looks like this:

2 Tow
1 cantor
4 SSG
1 S. cutter
1 Slitermuse
1 arbor

"Wild Cantor is so good as filter" doesn't seem like a very compelling argument to me. Wild Cantor is probably the most versatile mana filter effect you can have in this deck, but I don't think that "filtering green to black" is worth the cost of a card. Personally, I'd rather lose to not having black mana than lose to spending a card to make black mana. The card just seems very situational, and I think the deck can only support so many situationally relevant cards since they effect the quality of your D4s. That being said, it looks like you're not playing an Eternal Witness/Skullwinder, so I can support Wild Cantor in the deck if you're considering it to be in *that* slot since the regrowth creature is just as situational if not completely uncastable a lot of the time.

In that vein, it looks to me like you're playing a ton of extremely situational cards by playing 2nd Trow, Cantor *and* Cutter. I look at that configuration and I question how often you're casting D4s only to come up short on resources because you drew creatures that end up doing nothing if they're even castable at all as you attempt to go off. I'd rather draw dead copies of Culling the Weak later in my combo than the cards that rely on Culling the Weak to function, and I'd hate to have to mulligan hands that couldn't even get off of the ground because they have multiple do-nothing creatures in them.

[GoldenCid]

Although your arguments are consistent cantor allows my not to mulligan hand like this:

CB, DR, LED, ESG. Cantor, IT, CB or
SP, DR, DR, CB, Cantor, D4, ESG or
SP, ESG, DR, CB, petal, CB, Muse and so on

I am not saying that morphose is bad, cantor is seen by my as a tutoreable filter. id cut her maybe if i would not run muse.

[Namida]

You are able to keep those hands because Wild Cantor is in your deck, but you have effectively mulliganed down to six anyway by spending Cantor to make the black mana in the first place. I honestly don't know if that's better or worse than taking an actual mulligan--as long as people are aware that this is what is happening when they play Wild Cantor in their deck, then I've made my point. That's why I don't like Wild Cantor, but I couldn't argue that it's all downside to have the card in your deck.

You do have a point about Slithermuse, though. Blue mana is real tough to get, so I play IGG in the slot half of the time when I play this deck.

[GoldenCid]

Slithermuse is the most flexible slot. It is hard to cast and get more than 4 cards. But if you can it is simply amazing.
What do you suggest there?

[CyrusCG]

Hey all, I like to play this deck at my local events since I own mostly foil ANT and thought it would be a fun side project to foil this deck out as well.

Currently my list is:
60 Cards:
9 Creatures:
1 Skullwinder
1 Skyshroud Cutter
1 Slithermuse
1 Wild Cantor
1 Slitherhead
4 Elvish Spirit Guides
16 Instants:
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Summoner’s Pact
19 Sorceries:
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Land Grant
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
14 Artifacts:
2 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Chrome Mox
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
2 Lands:
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard:
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Duress
3 Tomb of Urami

Right now I'm on the 15 out plan. -5 non-ESG creatures (leaving Dryad Arbor in), -4 CtW, -4 Summoner's Pact, -2 Charbelcher.
What I'm currently considering is cutting one of the pact targets for a Dark Petition. Has anyone had any success with this card?

[GoldenCid]

I always felt it like a heavy card...

[mistercakes]

it's good as a 1 or 2. i like it. maybe in 1 of the charbelcher spots.

[GoldenCid]

Ok, almost 1 year with no posts. Let`s reload this.

I am tempted to run this in a "healthy group" to see what occurs.

I got 1 skullwinder! so id like to take this:

4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 Culling the weak
4 cruel bargain
4 infernal contract
4 land grant
4 S. pact
4 infernal tutor
4 Tendrils of agony
1 IGG

4 LED
4 Chrome mox
4 lotus petal

4 ESG
1 Odiosous Thow
1 Wild cantor
1 Skullwinder
1 Skyshoud cutter
1 Vine Dryad

1 bayou
1 Dryad arbor

SB (still deciding)

4 X. swarm
3-4 Carpet of flowers
3 Dread of night
4 Duress
0-1 belcher

I expect skullwinder to reduce fizzle (or i hope to).

Any opinion is welcomed

[schweinefettmann]

No belcher main? I kinda figured 2 main or something would be good enough to get sneaky kills here and there without needing to storm out?


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[GoldenCid]

Yes. No belcher. I wanna try it. In the past i had a moderated ratio of no killing activation.
However, it Is always un muy mind

[Vacrix]

Yeah right, mistake with belcher...ESG correct.

Cutter....i like it because is tutoreable, free stuff, produce no card diadvantaje however, it raises the storm notoriously.
It is fair, just that.

Vine dryad is other option but i have no experience.

I’ve actually been testing here and there skyshroud cutters and burnt offerings. Hooting mandrills wasn’t as good, vine dryad seemed okay but playing anywhere from 1 to 3 burnt offerings and dryad/cutter gives the deck so much mana it’s stupid. Problem is the 3rd D4 isn’t there yet so the deck can’t play 12. Belchers were out for death wish. It was tweaky and seemed a little faster than usual but I’ve had to play only edh because where I’m living now that’s all peeps play



Edit: has anyone tried act on impulse? Looks good. D3 for 3 but it’s good with LED

[GoldenCid]

I am not sure if you are sugesting playing Burnt offering instead of culling the weak or playing both.
If it's so, what would you cut? I think the deck provides a good amount of mana. Maybe the weakness Is to get more Fuel.

[Final Fortune]

I am not sure if you are sugesting playing Burnt offering instead of culling the weak or playing both.
If it's so, what would you cut? I think the deck provides a good amount of mana. Maybe the weakness Is to get more Fuel.

Cabal Ritual is the weak link if you're going the Skyshroud Cutter and Vine Dryad/Burnt Offering route.

[GoldenCid]

Can you suggest a list?

[Tucane]

Burnt Offering + Allosaurus Rider, not saying it's good... (double pitch sucks) just had to mention it.

[GoldenCid]

Burnt Offering + Allosaurus Rider, not saying it's good... (double pitch sucks) just had to mention it.
It makes burnt stronger but it Is much more difficult to cast. I am not pretty sure if dryad/cutter/offering worth the pity. However i Will probable give it a try

[GoldenCid]

Sorry for doubling posting. do you think that force of vigor should be in our side? i mean, to deal with chalice @1. I do not know if this makes sense but it could be an option.

My actual side lokes like this:

4 duress
4 xantid swarm
4 carpet of flowers
3 dread of night

Maybe vigor could come in exchange for swarm. Duress + CoF could be enought anti-control hate.

What do you think?

[Zavec]

I’ve actually been testing here and there skyshroud cutters and burnt offerings. Hooting mandrills wasn’t as good, vine dryad seemed okay but playing anywhere from 1 to 3 burnt offerings and dryad/cutter gives the deck so much mana it’s stupid. Problem is the 3rd D4 isn’t there yet so the deck can’t play 12. Belchers were out for death wish. It was tweaky and seemed a little faster than usual but I’ve had to play only edh because where I’m living now that’s all peeps play



Edit: has anyone tried act on impulse? Looks good. D3 for 3 but it’s good with LEDI've seen some lists with bolas' citadel, which I think serves a similar purpose to the draw 4s. If it resolves you probably just win, though it costing 6 does kinda suck.

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[GoldenCid]

HI!! Lastnight went to a small tournament (10 guys) with this list:

1 cantor
1 cutter
4 guide
1 thow
1 vine dryad
1 skullwinder

4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 culling the weak
4 tutor infernal
4 cruel bargain
4 infernal contract
4 land grant
4 pact
4 tendrils
4 mox
4 led
1 bayou
1 dryad
4 Pétal
1 igg

Side:
4 x. swarm
4 duress
3 dread of night
2carpet of flowers
2 veil of summer

I went bad, very bad (1-3) but i won at least 1 game per round :)

The main is classical. I am concerned about the side.I think i have to much against blue. I know it is necesary but so much?
In the event there was an enchantress (didnt face it) and i had no answer against leyline.
So i was thinking cutting carpet swarm in fvour of 4 nature´s clain and 2 more veil. My plan against blue would be veil + duress while having answer against permanets.

Advices?

[Final Fortune]

So Once Upon a Time looks tailor made for this deck? Bayou, Dryad Arbor, Vine Dryad, Skyshoud Cutter, Wild Cantor, Elvish Spirit Guide and maybe Simian Spirit Guides and Xantid Swarms as well? Considering there is no Belcher, you can play 4 of the B/G fetch, a 2nd Bayou etc. and this deck starts to look consistent.

[GoldenCid]

So Once Upon a Time looks tailor made for this deck? Bayou, Dryad Arbor, Vine Dryad, Skyshoud Cutter, Wild Cantor, Elvish Spirit Guide and maybe Simian Spirit Guides and Xantid Swarms as well? Considering there is no Belcher, you can play 4 of the B/G fetch, a 2nd Bayou etc. and this deck starts to look consistent.

Any result from goldfishing??

[mistercakes]

Seems like an awkward draw from a draw 4. Does the deck really need more initial mana source?

[studderingdave]

Can I get a current baseline 75 for this deck? I am making a Legacy gauntlet and want to add it.

[gato con botas]

have you thought of putting on main pact of negation or summer veil