[Deck] Dread Depths

[Patrunkenphat7]

Hey everyone, I was wondering -
Has anyone created a control deck using both Hexmage / Depths as well as Stifle / Nought as the wincons? I have searched, yet I have found no such deck.

My reasoning for playing this deck:
The meta is shifting towards aggro. Whether it be aggro control or just plain aggro, everyone has started beating face with creatures. Because of this, there has been an increase in spot removal and answers to threats. One problem I have found with Dreadnought builds is that it is easily overwhelmed by removal (artifact destruction + STP). My solution is that control players should ramp up their threat count as well! Instead of focusing on one beefy creature, there are essentially triple the wincons in this deck. Obviously the primary blue counters and cantrip spells are included, as well as aggro-targeted removal in the form of Pernicious Deed. There are obviously control elements sacrificed (countertop) in favor of more and faster ways to win, but I really think that is the direction to go in the current metagame. Yes, there is no Tarmogoyf. Rather than grinding out with a Goyf, Dreadnought, Marit the Lage, and Tombstalker combine to kill the component quickly.

I would like to note that Living Wish vastly increases game 1's against a lot of decks.

Here is my current list:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Vampire Hexmage

4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Living Wish
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Smother

3 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

SB
1 Tombstalker
1 Dark Depths
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Yixilid Jailer
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Llanowan, Cephalid Empress
1 Seijiri Steppe
3 Infest
3 Extirpate

Hopefully somebody will like this; I am accustomed to being shot down in the New and Developmental Decks :wink:
I will include matchups and whatnot if my testing continues to go well. Side events at GP Collumbus should be helpful.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Get that Extirpate out of there. It's a bad card. Run Crypt or Relic instead.

[SageOwl]

I think the best part of this deck is that Stifle not only allows you to drop a 12/12, but it also protects your 20/20 from wasteland.
I also love living wish, can you splash white for a sideboard Harmonic sliver?

[Pastorofmuppets]

Also, Yixlid Jailer is commonly overlooked as grave hate, but it is wishable.

[Patrunkenphat7]

@ SageOwl: Yeah the synergy is quite fun! White would definitely be tough to squeeze in... Are there any creatures in my colors accomplishing the same task? Maybe Trygon Predator... But that seems a little underwhelming. Maelstrom Pulses usually do a good job of dealing with annoying artifacts and enchantments, especially since I can dig a little bit for them. Let me know if anyone sees any overlooked 1-of's in the wishboard. Seijiri Steppe could be cut, as it's not useful in most matchups. It is nice vs. Faeries though.

@Pastorofmuppets: I really disagree with what you just said about Extirpate. It is much, much better universally than those cards you mentioned. It essentially exists to hit Loam Engines and helping vs. Dredge is just a bonus. It is the one GY hate that nobody can defend against, including Dredge. I have seen Dredge crush Relic and Crypt with Needles and Ancient Grudges; my friend who plays Dredge as his primary deck believes that those cards are the easiest hate to overcome. Also, I am playing Yixlid Jailer in the SB as a wish target :smile:

[Hanni]

Dredge answers Extirpate with Cabal Therapy. If you are hitting their Cabal Therapies with your Extirpates, they are still going broken with their Bridges or beating you down with Ichorid's.

Relic and Tormod's are preferred because they wipe their entire yard clean rather than hit just 1 specific card, causing the dredge player to have to start all over from scratch. For most decks, that's more than enough time to win the game.

[Patrunkenphat7]

This really isn't supposed to be a debate about GY hate for Dredge. I can 100% say that if you are playing black, Relic and Crypt should not be in your SB. But back to discussion about this deck... I would like to cut Seijiri Steppe, but I don't know what for.

[sam.]

I really like this list. Anything that's running a Living Wish toolbox is something I'm fond of. :)

[Jables237]

Extripate > Thopter/Foundry unless they have counter balance up with a 1CC riding on the top

[Patrunkenphat7]

I really like this list. Anything that's running a Living Wish toolbox is something I'm fond of. :)

Thanks! If anyone decides to proxy this up and play some, lemme know how it goes! I need to test this against a variety of decks, and I probably won't be able to do that until I play around some at GP Columbus.

[mercc]

-1 dreadnought main
+1 dreadnought sb

when you have living wish?

[Justin]

I posted a list for "Dreaded Depths" some time ago, but it didn't generate a lot of interest. I eventually dropped the deck. Dreadnought is not what it once was because of better creatures being printed and the arrival of Qasali Pridemage. Dark Depths isn't so hot in Legacy (as opposed to the old Extended) because of the prevalence of Wasteland. Another problem with this deck is that it's not as good or reliable as other combo decks in the format (at least before the Mystical Tutor ban anyway).

Anyway, my deck was very similar to yours, except that I didn't play as much removal. I don't think this deck needs Smother or Deeds because it is meant to win very quickly. It's not too concerned with aggro decks. It wants to improve its matchups with control and combo, and it can do that by playing discard spells such as Duress, Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek instead of removal spells. I'd recommend about eight such discard spells.

[Patrunkenphat7]

-1 dreadnought main
+1 dreadnought sb

when you have living wish?

That's a very good suggestion; I have thought about that. I really like Dreadnought turn 2 though. I would subtract a more explosive Dreadnought for a more consistent one, but that might very well be the direction to go since I am playing this as a control deck.

@Justin: I see your points, and I think that the deck would still be quite good with targeted discard. The difference between you and I is that I don't see this deck as a combo deck like you do. I see it as a control deck with threats that have an extremely fast clock. Against control I am definitely the aggro player. Instead of protecting a single threat through discard and counters, my strategy is to have about 2 huge threats at my disposal and protect them with counters. If they answer my threats, I will have answers to their threats, and the game will grind out. If I completely sacrifice spot removal, I run the risk of going all or nothing. I like this deck because I can easily shift between aggro and control. I can turn 2 or 3 Dreadnought or Marit the Lage, but I can also sweep their board and grind out if they have answers or if I don't find my threats.

Also, you mentioned Pridemage and Wasteland. I have 13 blue spells that stop Pridemage, as well as 8 removal spells. It is good, but it can be stopped. Stifle and Trickbind beat Wasteland, and so does a timely played Dark Depths.

I know that Wizards has printed 'better' creatures recently, but better than a 2 mana 12/12 trampler? Better than a 3 mana flying indestructible 20/20 flier? Heck no! I would be interested in seeing your list. I am guessing that we probably play these decks quite differently, and there certainly isn't just one right way to do it.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Neither Dreadnought nor Depths are really control cards in this format. They both take up huge amounts of design space with all of the support cards they require and every other deck in the format runs maindeck outs to them anyway that set you up for 2-for-1s both to land the combos and to protect them. I think a better approach is to land the combo as fast as possible to end the game as fast as possible. This (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35916)list won a large-ish (48-man) tourney with I think a stronger approach to the deck.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Neither Dreadnought nor Depths are really control cards in this format. They both take up huge amounts of design space with all of the support cards they require and every other deck in the format runs maindeck outs to them anyway that set you up for 2-for-1s both to land the combos and to protect them. I think a better approach is to land the combo as fast as possible to end the game as fast as possible. This (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35916)list won a large-ish (48-man) tourney with I think a stronger approach to the deck.

To compare that list with mine:

1) Instead of Lim-Dul's Vault, I play Living Wish. Living Wish is more verstatile, whereas Lim-Dul's Vault takes the 'all in' approach. I honestly feel like Living Wish has the opportunity to be faster than Lim-Dul's Vault in some situations, so any advantage Lim-Dul's Vault has in speed is not really worth it to me in this spot.. It is also important that I can always search up a beater in the form of Tombstalker with Living Wish.

2) Instead of Dark Confidant, I run Ponder. It is odd that this deck is the example of how mine should be more explosive and comboish, when I blatently win the combo award in this comparison. Dark Confidant? Bob is definitely a control card meant for the middle game, whereas Ponder helps set up a turn 2 or 3 big guy, or it helps you grab protection.

3) After that point, the comparisons are murky. He runs more land, which he should since he runs Wastelands and no Ponders. He actually runs LESS colored land than me, which I feel is wrong. He runs more counterspells, but he runs less free counterspells (and 3 Spell Snare is in no way meant for an explosive 'combo' deck). He runs 3 Thoughtseize, which I do like. Most notably, he runs 0 removal.

Seeing that list do well gives me confidence in my own list.
- I would say the lack of Ponder is the worst part of that list, along with Spell Snare.
+ I do like Thoughtseize, and I do like Lim-Dul's Vault to a certain extent.
0 Bob is out of place.

That list has zero late game except Bob, which is more of a middle game card anyways, and I honestly do not see how his early game is any better than mine. He has (seemingly) more protection for his threats, while I have more consistent threats. I actually have more free counters and more dig to find the protection though...

Also, to address the issue of Dreadnought and Dark Depths not being 'control cards' - I feel like that statement is very incorrect. How is Dreadnought any less of a control card than Tarmogoyf? The only design space it takes is Stifle, which is a control card itself that also protects my other combo from Wasteland! And Dark Depths takes too much design space? 3 colorless lands and 3 2/1 first striking creatures with a relevant ability in Legacy. Not to mention I use 4 Living Wish, which much of the control elements of the deck revolve around. I'm just taking control in a different direction with this deck. It's a control deck that can out-aggro aggro itself or it can sweep their board. It's just a control deck that plays huge threats and utilizes a wishboard. That's all I'm really trying to do here.

I'm glad to see that a somewhat similar strategy did well. Defending my deck through debate helps me realize more about it and its role in a matchup, so I appreciate the conversation :smile:

[Justin]

That's a very good suggestion; I have thought about that. I really like Dreadnought turn 2 though. I would subtract a more explosive Dreadnought for a more consistent one, but that might very well be the direction to go since I am playing this as a control deck.

@Justin: I see your points, and I think that the deck would still be quite good with targeted discard. The difference between you and I is that I don't see this deck as a combo deck like you do. I see it as a control deck with threats that have an extremely fast clock. Against control I am definitely the aggro player. Instead of protecting a single threat through discard and counters, my strategy is to have about 2 huge threats at my disposal and protect them with counters. If they answer my threats, I will have answers to their threats, and the game will grind out. If I completely sacrifice spot removal, I run the risk of going all or nothing. I like this deck because I can easily shift between aggro and control. I can turn 2 or 3 Dreadnought or Marit the Lage, but I can also sweep their board and grind out if they have answers or if I don't find my threats.

Also, you mentioned Pridemage and Wasteland. I have 13 blue spells that stop Pridemage, as well as 8 removal spells. It is good, but it can be stopped. Stifle and Trickbind beat Wasteland, and so does a timely played Dark Depths.

I know that Wizards has printed 'better' creatures recently, but better than a 2 mana 12/12 trampler? Better than a 3 mana flying indestructible 20/20 flier? Heck no! I would be interested in seeing your list. I am guessing that we probably play these decks quite differently, and there certainly isn't just one right way to do it.

The list that won the big tourney did not play removal. I played Snuff Out in an earlier version of my deck, but I gave it up for targeted discard. Again, I found the matchup with Aggro decks to be very favorable. Control was the tough matchup and I wanted to improve my chances there. I also toyed with Dark Confidant in my deck, but it did not work too well.

By better big creatures, I mean Progenitus, Iona, Shield of Emeria, and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, which can be powered out with Natural Order, reanimation spells, and Show and Tell respectively.

[Patrunkenphat7]

The list that won the big tourney did not play removal. I played Snuff Out in an earlier version of my deck, but I gave it up for targeted discard. Again, I found the matchup with Aggro decks to be very favorable. Control was the tough matchup and I wanted to improve my chances there. I also toyed with Dark Confidant in my deck, but it did not work too well.

By better big creatures, I mean Progenitus, Iona, and Emrakul, which can be powered out with Natural Order, reanimation spells, and Show and Tell respectively.

How did your deck do against Merfolk?

[Justin]

Not so great against Merfolk, especially lists that run maindeck bounce. Merfolk also run Wasteland and the "free" countermagic of FOW and Daze, so they have a lot of stuff that disrupts you. Not to mention that they islandwalk though you, too. I think you are trying to suggest that creature removal will improve that particular matchup by buying you time. However, it's the countermagic and bounce that respresents the biggest concern because you can't stick your big creatures against them.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Not so great against Merfolk, especially lists that run maindeck bounce. Merfolk also run Wasteland and the "free" countermagic of FOW and Daze, so they have a lot of stuff that disrupts you. Not to mention that they islandwalk though you, too. I think you are trying to suggest that creature removal will improve that particular matchup by buying you time. However, it's the countermagic and bounce that respresents the biggest concern because you can't stick your big creatures against them.

Actually I was curious because I have not been able to test that matchup other than against myself. Recent lists have been running no bounce, but instead they are geared to go more aggro with tons of lords. Yes, the free counters are what stops our combos. But if they counter a combo, they arent going to counter a Deed, especially considering I have my own free counters that are used primarily to counter theirs. Merfolk can't win by simply countering a threat; they have to swarm and attack. If their swarm is 3-for-1ed, then it severely hurts them and opens up the opportunity to drop another bomb. I really think that is the approach to go with Merfolk. Try to land a bomb, and if you can't counter their counters, land a Deed Then you rinse and repeat. Note that if they are trying to Wasteland Depths, my Stifles and Trickbind really begin to show their worth. It shouldn't be insanely hard to land a threat against Merfolk when I run the same amount of free counters, not to mention that I have more dig to find them.

Deed is a bomb right now considering 3 of the 5 most popular decks in the format are Merfolk, Zoo, and Goblins.

[Justin]

Actually I was curious because I have not been able to test that matchup other than against myself. Recent lists have been running no bounce, but instead they are geared to go more aggro with tons of lords. Yes, the free counters are what stops our combos. But if they counter a combo, they arent going to counter a Deed, especially considering I have my own free counters that are used primarily to counter theirs. Merfolk can't win by simply countering a threat; they have to swarm and attack. If their swarm is 3-for-1ed, then it severely hurts them and opens up the opportunity to drop another bomb. I really think that is the approach to go with Merfolk. Try to land a bomb, and if you can't counter their counters, land a Deed Then you rinse and repeat. Note that if they are trying to Wasteland Depths, my Stifles and Trickbind really begin to show their worth. It shouldn't be insanely hard to land a threat against Merfolk when I run the same amount of free counters, not to mention that I have more dig to find them.

Deed is a bomb right now considering 3 of the 5 most popular decks in the format are Merfolk, Zoo, and Goblins.

Deed might be OK if you are having problems with aggro because of the card advantage that it provides you. However, spells like Smother will usually only get you a 1 for 1. I'd rather have targeted discard in this deck over spot removal. Sweeper effects are fine. One problem with Deed, however, is that it is a mana-hungry spell in a deck that doesn't generate a lot of mana. You will probably see a lot of situations in which you play it for three mana one turn and then have to wait until next turn to pop it. This also leaves you vulnerable to Krosan Grip. You are only running 16 lands (not counting Dark Depths and the extra Urborg). This is why, when I ran spot removal, I opted for a "free" removal card such as Snuff Out.