[article] Zoo vs Counterbalance

[frogboy]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19745_Ideas_Unbound_Legacy_Zoo_versus_Counterbalance.html

Columbus is coming; I expect this to be a fairly popular matchup

[morgan_coke]

Nice article, decent analysis. I keep wondering though, if Zoo lists want to start boarding Burning-Tree Shaman. It turns off the lifegain from Thopters, and makes top into a damage source. As well as having a large amount of utility in various other matchups. One thing I think would have been nice that wasn't included is a list of "key cards" to look for that clue you into what variant of the deck your opponent is playing. Like, Steppe Lynx is usually an indicator of a more sligh-ish plan, so expect PoP and Fireblast, whereas Loam Lion/Ape might indicate a more mannish plan.

[dyzzy]

Like, Steppe Lynx is usually an indicator of a more sligh-ish plan
Also, Steppe Lynx seems like a very good indication that you're running KotR and not BTS. (Hopefully this should be pretty obvious)

[Aggro_zombies]

Also, Steppe Lynx seems like a very good indication that you're running KotR and not BTS. (Hopefully this should be pretty obvious)
Almost all Zoo lists run Knight anyway, so that's kind of irrelevant. BTS is more of a sideboard card for matchups where the benefit of pinging the opponent outweighs the cost of shocking yourself every time you fetch.

Though it's hard to see why you'd want Shaman over narrower answers like Null Rod, for example. I get that it covers a lot more ground, but it just doesn't seem that interesting.

[lordofthepit]

That was a very thorough breakdown of the matchup. I enjoyed that much more than "Attack is Miserable". =)

[pippo84]

I enjoyed the article. Well, as a Thopter player it was obviously interesting!

[Nekrataal]

Mh I found the analysis decent at least from the Zoo side. Burning Tree Shaman is a good option but also Gaddock Teeg is against Fow, EE, Humility, Moat or maybe Shusher or Magus of the Moon. Also to raise the number of one drops is a risky approach because CB will hurt even more.

[Aggro_zombies]

Mh I found the analysis decent at least from the Zoo side. Burning Tree Shaman is a good option but also Gaddock Teeg is against Fow, EE, Humility, Moat or maybe Shusher or Magus of the Moon. Also to raise the number of one drops is a risky approach because CB will hurt even more.
Not coming out of the gates fast enough hurts because then Counterbalance locks you completely out of the game, instead of mostly out of the game. Besides, if you can bait them into putting Top on top by dropping Nacatl or something, you can aim a bunch of Bolts or whatever at their face in response for MASSIVE DAMAGE.

Many Thopterbalance lists run 7+ basics, so Magus is not that hot. About the biggest upside is shutting off Ruins, which is big, yeah, but maybe not worth it for :2::r: and a 2/2. In other matchups, he still doesn't seem that worthwhile because of the presence of Hierarch and/or Firespout (which he does a great job of enabling).

Shusher doesn't seem that great from the standpoint of breaking open Counterbalance locks. He does, however, seem perfect for drawing removal away from your other guys so that they can try to go the distance.

I think Zoo's best bet is to bring in some number of Teegs, some number of Grips, and some number of red Blasts. Against Thopterbalance, Null Rod is probably slightly better than Teeg, if only because it shuts down both of their "locks" and Pridemage is already an out to Moat (and you can still get there under Humility).

[Nekrataal]

I do agree but I totally missed that kind of discussion / thougths in the article apart from stating the obvious "Yeah put Choke SB".

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

This guy knows what the hell he is talking about. I was thoroughly impressed by this article. Shusher does suck and I'm not sure why I ever played it back in the old day. I also have someone backing me with the PoP/Fireblast argument for once. I think for the Counterbalance matchup, in my experience, YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH ACADEMY RUINS AND/OR SHACKLES. I'm not sure how many people still run Shackles, but if you're behind when it hits, goodluck. Also, keep a 2drop hand is probably the worst thing you can do. I learned that lesson the hard way.

So, kudos.

[Nelis]

Yeah, good article.

(A note that is neither here nor there: A single Wasteland in the sideboard of Zoo decks to Knight up and kill Glacial Chasm with seems awesome. Why hasn't that been happening? I get that Bog does similar things, but if Lands has Orb and Manabond going, they may never need to yard their Chasm, and while they might have two in their deck, they'll rarely have two in play.)

Sven Dijt played Wastelands at Madrid (top 8) and was really pleased about the choice.

[jandax]

This guy knows what the hell he is talking about. I was thoroughly impressed by this article. Shusher does suck and I'm not sure why I ever played it back in the old day. I also have someone backing me with the PoP/Fireblast argument for once. I think for the Counterbalance matchup, in my experience, YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH ACADEMY RUINS AND/OR SHACKLES. I'm not sure how many people still run Shackles, but if you're behind when it hits, goodluck. Also, keep a 2drop hand is probably the worst thing you can do. I learned that lesson the hard way.

So, kudos.

I, too, am a proponent of PoP/Fireblast! Good burn is good. Not going to list all the obvious reasons and interactions, but I have lost a game with three PoP as a hand....

This was an article I read twice. As a Zoo guy, my deck is already tuned, it's up to me, the player, to play it right so that it can do its thing. For the looming GP, detailed and accurate matchup analysis is like ESPN getting someone on camera who actually knows what they're talking about. I think for this particular GP, though, there will be plenty of DTB but I think some new spin on an archetype or tech will define the top 8. Same with PT A'dam, that'll be very interesting to see how a new format is born from the best player minds in teh game

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I, too, am a proponent of PoP/Fireblast! Good burn is good. Not going to list all the obvious reasons and interactions, but I have lost a game with three PoP as a hand....

This was an article I read twice. As a Zoo guy, my deck is already tuned, it's up to me, the player, to play it right so that it can do its thing. For the looming GP, detailed and accurate matchup analysis is like ESPN getting someone on camera who actually knows what they're talking about. I think for this particular GP, though, there will be plenty of DTB but I think some new spin on an archetype or tech will define the top 8. Same with PT A'dam, that'll be very interesting to see how a new format is born from the best player minds in teh game

I just don't think the "bullet" Zoo lists will do well, but you never know. I've read about Fauna Shaman, singleton lands, and absurd equipments with Stoneforge Mystic, and it's just killing me. I think Zoo consistency is what makes it good. I wouldn't wanna dilute any of these proven spells with different stuff. But innovation means change so meh i guess.

[jandax]

Innovation is a necessity, a necessity of change to react to an evolving environment. I agree that Zoo's strength lies in its consistency. Plenty of tools are available in that 75 to combat or beat the field. People who tinker with SFM packages or other "tech" additions aren't taking into account this Zoo philosophy; consistency is strength. I read a quote in someone's sig recently saying something to the effect of "Sligh is played like blitzkrieg- get in there for 20 damage ASAP! Zoo is like Napoleon's strategy- covering fire from artillery (removal) supports the ground assault" Thus, playing the two decks any other way will lead to bad results. The best metality is to be consistent against bad matchups and resistent to janky lists by knowing what you have at hand and what your deck can do to get you there.

[Bardo]

This article is awesome. Well done, Max.

[from Cairo]

For Zoo SBs:


Mh I found the analysis decent at least from the Zoo side. Burning Tree Shaman is a good option but also Gaddock Teeg is against Fow, EE, Humility, Moat or maybe Shusher or Magus of the Moon. Also to raise the number of one drops is a risky approach because CB will hurt even more.

Teeg is definitely beasters. Obviously people have valued him as a SB slot in the past against Combo and Landstill, but in the current meta I still feel like this creature's abilities while valued are understated. Engineered Explosives' presence has been picking up as it's one of the best ways to deal with the triple 1 drop starts, Aether Vial, Counterbalance and in 4c builds Planeswalkers. Lands, Jace Control, more traditional Landstill, CBT varients, pretty much the entire control spectrum is running this card either as a 3-4 of or with enough to Enlightened Tutors to make it virtually a 4 of.

In addition to Engineered Explosives and the 4 drops Nekrataal mentioned there's: Jace TMS, Ad Nauseum, Ill Gotten Gains, Natural Order, and Elspeth.


I think Zoo's best bet is to bring in some number of Teegs, some number of Grips, and some number of red Blasts.

I agree as well with Aggro Zombies on all counts. Red Elemental Blast is a really strong candidate for SB space. Having removal that can hit Jace TMS is just necessary, hitting Counterbalance and Rhox War Monk are also both huge.


YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH ACADEMY RUINS AND/OR SHACKLES.

This is also really important. I feel like Pithing Needle covers this issue, while providing the most splash damage toward other problem cards. Namely: EE, Sensei's Diving Top, Maze of Ith, and Planeswalkers. But also more rogue issues like Survival of the Fittest, or vs DnT.

The SB obviously needs some space for GY hate; I'm still of the camp that Faerie Macabre is the hardest colorless yard hate for yard based decks to deal with so I'd go with that. There should probably be some SB disenchant effect, probably Krosan Grip, though I'm a big fan of Aura of Silence as well. Remaining slots, I'd dedicate to suring up the agro match ups - w/e complement's one's MD best. More removal, Elspeth, and (additional) Equipment/SFM package would probably top my list.

Proposed:
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Anti-Agro (Helix, StP, Elspeth, SFM+an extra Equip)

[Fry]

Personally my favor play against Counter-Top is turn one or turn two Grim Lavamancer because even if they counter almost anything you play it's still adding fuel for the lavamancer

[Tammit67]

Personally my favor play against Counter-Top is turn one or turn two Grim Lavamancer because even if they counter almost anything you play it's still adding fuel for the lavamancer

But you put no clock on them and give them time to set up the soft lock. A poor choice. A poor thread necro.

[Fry]

well with the Lavamancer it's a slow clock, but still a clock, and there are always other options for damage as well

[Aggro_zombies]

well with the Lavamancer it's a slow clock, but still a clock, and there are always other options for damage as well
Like what? Lighting Bolt? Chain Lightning? Lightning Helix? You let them set up Counterbalance, so now they're countering all your spells and hitting you for 4 every turn with Tarmogoyf. Some clock.

[Fry]

I am not saying that the best thing against Counter-Top is Lavamancer, but in my opinion, and my testing in this has proved the point from my perspective at least, turn one Lavamancer is the way to go if you know you're against the deck. Chances are in most games both pieces won't yet be in play so you have a turn or two extra to work up some better damage, rift bolt gets through most of the time and fireblast gets through. with all of that in mind I'd gladly play the Lavamancer over any other 1cc in a zoo deck.

[Fry]

Typically counterbalance isn't set up in the first 2 turns of a game, and if it is then I'd be in trouble, but there's always fireblast, and rift bolt that get around most of the counterbalance triggers. ALso before the counter balance gets online you use all your 1cc burn/creatures without holding back. Post boart you have answers such as Krosan Grip and Seal of Primordium

[Valtrix]

I don't really understand why a zoo deck would be running rift bolt, perhaps a sligh deck.


Like what? Lighting Bolt? Chain Lightning? Lightning Helix? You let them set up Counterbalance, so now they're countering all your spells and hitting you for 4 every turn with Tarmogoyf. Some clock.

Actually, if you have lavamancer in play, chances are that goyf will only be a 2/3 or 3/4, depending on if the counterbalance deck got a sorcery. Perhaps larger if a counterbalance had already been destroyed, but if that's the case then the zoo player is probably sitting pretty well. For goyf, the smaller size is a significant difference when trying to win the damage race. Additionally, zoo has knight of the reliquary, which is a pseudo out in the sense that it's a lot less likely to get countered from balance (though, with counterbalance lists running more 3cc he's less reliable, but still an option). However, then the CB deck will just play a Jace and your lavamancer will look pretty silly.