The increase of Planeswalkers

[morgan_coke]

Looking at the top8 results from Japanese Nationals, seven of the top 8 decks ran planeswalkers in the main, and the eigth (tempo thresh) might or might not have benefited from 1-2 jace2s. Jace2 and Elspeth seem to be the two walkers of choice. I think there are a lot of reasons for this trend towards increased use of 'walkers. First of all, while the power level of 1-3 drop creatures has increased dramatically lately (Nacatl, Goyf, KotR), the power level of critter 4-5 drops, which were never that playable to begin with, have remained relatively constant. Planeswalkers pretty much outclass everything critter-based at their cmc and usually provide virtual (or actual) CA and lifegain/damage prevention.

But the thing that really makes planeswalkers powerful is the lack of removal for them. Here's a list of everything I could find that kills walkers.

Vampire Hexmage
Mangara of Corondor
Pithing Needle
Maelstrom Pulse
Vindicate
Oblivion Ring
Oblivion Stone
Mold Shambler
Rootgrapple
Engineered Explosives (if you're playing 4+ colors)
Planar Cleansing
All is Dust
Desert Twister
Cataclysm
burn spells
creature attacks

The majority of that list isn't Legacy staples. Or even Legacy playable. As long as walkers are immune to the majority of removal and continue to dramatically outclass other spells in their cmc range, I see nothing but an increase in their usage as win conditions for control decks and problem solvers/high end stallbreakers for aggro decks.

It's also become clear that Elspeth and Jace2 are the predominant walkers in Legacy, with lesser appearances from Redjani. Personally I've been having great results with Liliana in Rock-style builds, but that's not enough data to attribute to anything beyond particular build/playstyle interaction.

Did I miss any 'Walker removal? Others have thoughts on this?

[majikal]

What a weird top8. But unless everyone at the tournament was terrible I guess it's legit. Looks like there were 178 players there.

I'm not sure how I feel about Planeswalkers creeping into Legacy. On one hand, it's cool that WotC are throwing us a bone every once in a while, but on the other hand I don't like that these new mythics can cost more than some Dual Lands. :\

[Vacrix]

Thresh variants have gravitated more toward UWG rather than the more conventional UGR lists that ran burn. Fewer burn spells means fewer answers for walkers.

On a similar note, Jace 2.0 really is a baller.

[Purgatory]

Indeed, Pithing Needles for all!

[majikal]

What weirds me out is Noble Hierarch in Zoo. WTF is that about?

http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless/AMC/JapanLegacyChamps_2nd_E.html

[Philipp2293]

Did I miss any 'Walker removal?

Desert Twister and Cataclysm, if you want to count them.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

If the format's really slowing down as much as people say, walkers give decks like Zoo and New Horizons the push they need to have a passable midgame before they lose to inevitability. Not that Landstill will ever be a good deck, but when a real dedicated control deck is found, aggro and tempo strategies will need to speed up or play cards like Jace2 and Elspeth (or something better, if that's conceivable at 4cc) as finishers.

What surprises me more is the bizarre "tech" a lot of these lists have: Hierarch for postboard Meddling Mage in Zoo, Rancor+ 6 swords in NH, the entire 2nd and 8th place decklists. The #1 list used 6 REB effects. It looks like Japanese nationals was won by whoever topdecked the most of the exact same handful of cards.

[morgan_coke]

One other interesting thing I saw was maindecked Sharpshooters and Basilisk Collars in Goblins. At the very least seemed to have a lot of potential. Guy finished 51st, and only ran one collar, but I'd be curious about running more than one in the deck. Definitely solves the "their guys are bigger than mine" problem goblins always seems to have.

Added Twister and Cataclysm to first post.

[majikal]

Can any useful information be gleaned from these results or can we chalk it up to the tendency of the Japanese to play some off-the-wall shit? I honestly don't know what to make of some of these decklists. I mean, kudos for innovation, but I'm not convinced some of these additions are really all that viable in the long term.

[dahcmai]

Glad I play Pulses now. Jace 2.0 really is pretty decent. I stopped playing Lands because I couldn't find a real reliable way to kill him more than once. I tried everything from adding Hexmages and V Stronghold to more man lands and didn't really come up with a good answer. He's a pain for that deck.

Elspeth, I am surprised hasn't made it into a ton of decks. I used to play her in a Landstill variant with Humility since she's amazing with that card out. She trumps the Humility effect and makes flying 5/5 Mishra's and flying 4/4 tokens by herself. You can even play it with Moat like I did in GP Chicago. If it wasn't for the time constraints of plaing a deck like that, I would have done quite well I think.

I expect Ajani Vengeant to eventually start making a splash as he's actually quite decent against a lot of things in Legacy. He can tap down a creature which is actually relevant against decks that play a single threat like Tombstalker or Goyf and then ride them to Victory. Landstill does not want to see the land tap effect go too far or they get reset and it's actually hard to counter a 4cc card and then get rid of it with that deck. He even taps down the man-land that probably would be used to get rid of him. Even against something like Zoo, he's at worst a crappy Helix and buys a hit from one creature so he's good for probably around 6+ life or so. I'll settle for that. He does one shot Kird Apes and Nacatyls so it's not too horrid.

Tezzeret as we all full know will be at GP Columbus in the form of Thopter control. Anyone can see that coming a mile away.

Nissa really isn't too far off from being playable. Unkillable elves is annoying as hell and not every deck plays lightning bolt. Not even Goblins does and it's red. It's probably a better card in Legacy than Standard. Getting 2/3 dorks is nothing to get excited about, but I do like being able to chump to no end. The lifegain isn't a bad deal either.

Garruck is only a short way from being played. His mana ability makes him quite useful. It's the other 2 abilities that are mediocre. Making beasts is decent, though they are nothing to get excited about either.

I don't see Gideon, Ajani G, Sarkhan 1, Liliana, or either Chandra making it in anytime soon. Sorin might have a chance for that Mindslaver ability if it ever becomes better than it is now. Mindslaver is just not that hot right now.

Sarkhan the Mad. This one makes me wonder as he's got a confidant ability built in. That's pretty good since it hits him and not you. Playing Top has been a favorite thing forever now. Adding counters isn't a real big deal in this format though it means you play with crap cards so probably not worth it. The dealing damage for Dragons one seems useless as there's no Dragons worth playing. Making 5/5's out of anything is hot though. He kills Emrakul/Iona/Phyrexian Dreadnought if anything and makes a Dragon that's much easier to get rid of. BR decks notoriously suck though. Someday Sarkhan, you may have a spot.


I personally applaud wizards for coming up with a new card type and implementing it so seamlessly into everything. I love how they did it. I just hope they don't accidentally make a "destroy target planeswalker" card of some sort that is splashed by all and hard to deal with. I've been so annoyed with Krosan Grip since it was printed, I practically don't play enchantments unless most of the deck is made up of them because of the lack of ability to stop that card. I'd hate to see Planewalkers ruined by something like that. They should be a little harder to kill in legacy or we'll never see one break into the format again.

I'm only sad tribal didn't get as much support as planewalkers did.

[menace13]

I highly doubt 180 people in a Legacy Championship would all be bad.
The matrix shows Zoo had 90+ matches, that should be a lot of mirror matches. The lists were all geared towards Mirror(control too) with Rage-Pits(makes KotR(x4) into a semi Terravore and gets insane with 7 exalted triggers.
Noble also can fuel half the mana for pits and power out KotR and Elspeth a turn earlier. Elspeth and Stoneforge Mystic with SoLS and Collar on Grims look good here too. Also Landstill had a high win %. My guess was all the Zoo?

http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless/AMC/JapanLegacyMatrix2.html

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

I personally applaud wizards for coming up with a new card type and implementing it so seamlessly into everything. I love how they did it. I just hope they don't accidentally make a "destroy target planeswalker" card of some sort that is splashed by all and hard to deal with. I've been so annoyed with Krosan Grip since it was printed, I practically don't play enchantments unless most of the deck is made up of them because of the lack of ability to stop that card. I'd hate to see Planewalkers ruined by something like that. They should be a little harder to kill in legacy or we'll never see one break into the format again.
Don't you think that's kind of a silly reaction? Without it, powerful artifacts and enchantments were the mainstay of Legacy's most powerful deck and very difficult to deal with in matchups outside of cbtop because Disenchant effects didn't have crossover uses and the ones that did exist were reliably easy to stop. If Wizards continues to print broken planeswalkers like Jace2, shouldn't players have access a splashable (no more than 1 colored mana symbol) Vindicate effect for them? Unless your goal is fewer playable archetypes?

[Eddy Wally]

Liliana would be playable if she cost one less, same with Gideon. I play one Jace 2 and one Elspeth in my NOPRO Bant deck, and yjey're both very, very good. Elspeth in particular flat out wins games. Jace 2 is better to secure a win if you're not too far behind, but if your deck lacks an 'oops, I win' card, and you're in white, go with Elspeth.

Garruk is almost as good, it just needs a deck. It's quite ok with natural order, it can untap lands to protect that NO against daze or spell pierce, and it will provide a green creature in a pinch.

I once tested RW Ajani as a 2-of in Aggro Loam. That was ok actually, but not stellar.

[Eddy Wally]

Don't you think that's kind of a silly reaction? Without it, powerful artifacts and enchantments were the mainstay of Legacy's most powerful deck and very difficult to deal with in matchups outside of cbtop because Disenchant effects didn't have crossover uses and the ones that did exist were reliably easy to stop. If Wizards continues to print broken planeswalkers like Jace2, shouldn't players have access a splashable (no more than 1 colored mana symbol) Vindicate effect for them? Unless your goal is fewer playable archetypes?



Players can splash Oblivion Ring.

[Rico Suave]

The most common answer to planeswalkers is the attack step, and for that there are thousands upon thousands of answers.

[Infinitium]

Then again the actually played walkers tend to protect themselves.

[DragoFireheart]

Then again the actually played walkers tend to protect themselves.


Or they are played in decks that can protect them.

[Nessaja]

NO into Terastodon is planeswalker removal.

The craziest cards that wizards is printing in the 3-5 CMC range are the planeswalkers, so not surprised with this trend at all. 4 drops would need to be ~7/7 to compete in legacy, P/T wise, are havy some amazing abilities. That's all for the planeswalkers now.

[Aggro_zombies]

The most common answer to planeswalkers is the attack step, and for that there are thousands upon thousands of answers.
This isn't a very good answer, though; it's unlikely that the opponent is going to invest the resources in casting a planeswalker if he can't protect that investment somehow. Most of the decks using planeswalkers are on the control end of the spectrum and have some way to manipulate the combat step in their favor: Thopter tokens, Moat/Humility, sweepers, tough blockers, loads of pinpoint removal, etc. Killing a planeswalker through all of that simply buys the opponent more time to find another copy, or simply win through some other means.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

This isn't a very good answer, though; it's unlikely that the opponent is going to invest the resources in casting a planeswalker if he can't protect that investment somehow. Most of the decks using planeswalkers are on the control end of the spectrum and have some way to manipulate the combat step in their favor: Thopter tokens, Moat/Humility, sweepers, tough blockers, loads of pinpoint removal, etc. Killing a planeswalker through all of that simply buys the opponent more time to find another copy, or simply win through some other means.

It looks like that was Rico's point: the most common answer to a Planeswalker is to attack, and that's a response which itself isn't very good, given how many answers the Planeswalker player has. In Jace2's case, Jace2 is the answer, or at least a big part of it.

[Aggro_zombies]

It looks like that was Rico's point: the most common answer to a Planeswalker is to attack, and that's a response which itself isn't very good, given how many answers the Planeswalker player has. In Jace2's case, Jace2 is the answer, or at least a big part of it.
I understand that. I pointed it out because I thought the point of this thread was to find better answers to opposing planeswalkers than simply attacking.

I mean, it's kind of absurd to expect someone to pay 4+ mana on a spell in Legacy and not be able to protect that investment. Four mana is just on the borderline between "expensive" and "costs infinite" in Legacy.

[scrumdogg]

If Planeswalker specific answers are allowable then REB/Pyroblast for Jace 1 or 2, BEB/Hydroblast for Redjani, Anarchy for Elspeth, Ajani, Redjani (and Moat & Humility & critters & Oblivion Rings & KotR & Rhox War Monk & Qasali Pridmage & cats etc etc) are all possibilities. Not being able to deal with all of the Planeswalkers doesn't disqualify them from being bad SB options, but does mean that they can't be relied upon. Bounce is also a decent short term option, especially since you are already in blue & can hopefully sequence it to where you can now counter the re-cast Planeswalker.

[Rico Suave]

No, my point was more along the lines that if you can manage to eliminate your opponent's attack step and proceed to safely tap out and protect 4+ mana threats...

You've already won most of your matches.

[dahcmai]

If I cast Moat, I have a counter or you just tapped out for something you thought was worth it. Same thing as Jace isn't it? Planeswalkers are like that, fragile for the most part. If you're that worried about them you play some burn. It's like being worried about that Moat. you play Disenchant effects if you care that much. Burn is the planeswalker answer. I plan to play a Psionic Blast in my board to Cunning Wish for just for planeswalkers. If you can't figure out that you need to start thinking about them, you have more of a problem than you think.

I will bet anyone that the winning deck of GP Columbus has at least one planeswalker in it or some Lightning Bolts. Want to bet on that?

[DragoFireheart]

I will bet anyone that the winning deck of GP Columbus has at least one planeswalker in it or some Lightning Bolts. Want to bet on that?


That's like betting if the sun is going to rise tommorow.

[practical joke]

Funny, because I think there are a few decks I see able to win GP columbus without pw's:

Bant Survival ( doesn't really uses pw's, but it could)
New horizons ( I've seen some with 2x jace 2.0, but I still prefer to play without)
T.E.S. ( storm is still very viable, I think some will be very mistaken in ignoring the potential)

I did found that zoo list with elspeth quite interesting tbh, gives some additional OOMPH to the deck when it get's stuck watching a moat or bigger bombs than they posses. Also that skarrg intrigued me. Goyfs that win the 1-1, fat knights with trample, not a bad addition tbh.

I don't see thopter control get into T8, it's just to inconsistent to be able to win THAT many matches.
The other decks I think that can definately make it to T8 in an expected meta.

Aggro-loam ( I don't think it's a real active deck in the states, while it's impressively strong against aggro)
Goblins ( mono-red)
Zoo
Bant-aggro

There might sneak a merfolk in there, but against a meta that'll be more aggressive I don't think it'll survive really well.
I don't expect reanimate in there since I believe that most ppl are creating the wrong lists and you can't lucksack yourself for 15+ rounds that way. ( except muller, his luck never ended)
Tempo ***** itself has to many tought match-ups now combo isn't really there.
Belcher won't make it since 1. it's random 2. force is still around.
I expect to see Asian counterbalance back again. Firespout will be a great card to be played again.

Planeswalkers are great, but I only expect half of the T8 to have planeswalkers at max.

[Grollub]

I will bet anyone that the winning deck of GP Columbus has at least one planeswalker in it or some Lightning Bolts. Want to bet on that?

I'm on! Just wait and see, some dork will play Belcher with perfect draws all day....

[from Cairo]

If I cast Moat, I have a counter or you just tapped out for something you thought was worth it. Same thing as Jace isn't it? Planeswalkers are like that, fragile for the most part. If you're that worried about them you play some burn. It's like being worried about that Moat. you play Disenchant effects if you care that much. Burn is the planeswalker answer. I plan to play a Psionic Blast in my board to Cunning Wish for just for planeswalkers. If you can't figure out that you need to start thinking about them, you have more of a problem than you think.

I will bet anyone that the winning deck of GP Columbus has at least one planeswalker in it or some Lightning Bolts. Want to bet on that?

Elspeth and Jace TMS both ramp out of Bolt/Psionic Blast range before priority is passed, I don't see burn as being that reliable of an out to them.

I do agree with you that the top GP decks will have Planeswalkers in them though.

[iostream]

I think it's at least conceivable that Lands could win the GP, and it doesn't play walkers at all. Furthermore, as with every threat Lands ever faces, it doesn't need to eliminate Jace, just have a way to stall long enough to set up stack or slaver lock, e.g. barbarian ring.

[obituary 95]

Mangara of Corondor takes out plainswalkers

[Pastorofmuppets]

Mangara of Corondor takes out plainswalkers

Yes, he does. And I really have trouble dealing with Aysen Highway.dec. The fact that he handles Planeswalkers is just gravy.
Vindicate is good, or so I hear.

[frenchy-man]

Gaddock Teeg is a strong card to prevent PW to reach the ground. And I won't tell you what cards it also shut down in legacy...

[Raptor]

Gaddock Teeg is a strong card to prevent PW to reach the ground. And I won't tell you what cards it also shut down in legacy...

Right, Plague wind does so much card advantage. It should see more play with the rise of aggro. It'll like in the Hulk era. Prepare for it or play it !

[frenchy-man]

I guess that you are trying to be funny... Nice try, but try to be interesting for next time ;)

[ramanujan]

I will bet anyone that the winning deck of GP Columbus has at least one planeswalker in it or some Lightning Bolts. Want to bet on that?

With all due respect you were wrong on this one. Check PMs

[dahcmai]

Heh, I noticed that PM when I got back. I wasn't far off though considering the 2nd place. I don't think anyone expected Merfolk to get that far though.

[Finn]

With regards to plansewalkers in general, they are all designed to be bombs. Some are legitimate bombs and others are just expensive. It stands to reason that blue, being the heart of control forever would begin to turn to planeswalkers for finishers in the same way they used to turn to stuff like Rainbow Efreet and Morphling - they are hard for the opponent to handle.

What we are not seeing yet are the cheapie planeswalkers. Compared to any other permanent type there really are very few of these. I figure it is only a matter of time before wotc decides to design a planeswalker block with the possibility of these things being the majority of the spells in a deck. There would have to be 1cc and 2cc planeswalkers to smooth out the mana curve and provide a much smaller effect. To make the block work, there would have to be many more ways to deal with planeswalkers to accompany all the new ones we see in play. I estimate that when that day comes, cards like Vindicate will start to creep back in Legacy decks as the planeswalkers make their way into our environment in a much more pronounced fashion. You have to figure that there is not a single card yet that targets only plansewalkers. This is the way grave yards have become slowly over the years.

[SilverGreen]

With regards to plansewalkers in general, they are all designed to be bombs. Some are legitimate bombs and others are just expensive. It stands to reason that blue, being the heart of control forever would begin to turn to planeswalkers for finishers in the same way they used to turn to stuff like Rainbow Efreet and Morphling - they are hard for the opponent to handle.

What we are not seeing yet are the cheapie planeswalkers. Compared to any other permanent type there really are very few of these. I figure it is only a matter of time before wotc decides to design a planeswalker block with the possibility of these things being the majority of the spells in a deck. There would have to be 1cc and 2cc planeswalkers to smooth out the mana curve and provide a much smaller effect. To make the block work, there would have to be many more ways to deal with planeswalkers to accompany all the new ones we see in play. I estimate that when that day comes, cards like Vindicate will start to creep back in Legacy decks as the planeswalkers make their way into our environment in a much more pronounced fashion. You have to figure that there is not a single card yet that targets only plansewalkers. This is the way grave yards have become slowly over the years.Please. Don't. DON'T.

[DragoFireheart]

I figure it is only a matter of time before wotc decides to design a planeswalker block with the possibility of these things being the majority of the spells in a deck. There would have to be 1cc and 2cc planeswalkers to smooth out the mana curve and provide a much smaller effect.


No, WOTC won't do this. Not only does it not fit the lore, it doesn't fit planeswalker design very well.

[dahcmai]

I wouldn't mind a U costed planeswalker that did something like this.

+1 Look at opoonent's hand.
+1 Look at the top card of either deck
-6 Draw a card

some random number of starting loyalty counters.


I wouldn't call that broken, but very handy.


Ok, I admit I would love something like that printed. I was screaming for a Glasses of Urza effect all day.