[Deck] Bleen (Death Cloud)

[C Rayz Walz]

I've been having a lot of success with Bleen (black-green) at some tournaments. Death Cloud is such a powerful and underused card. If used properly it basically does in the current Legacy format what Wildfire did in 1999- a nearly one-sided reset. I think Bleen can beat any deck in the format and matches up very well against Counterbalance decks and pretty well against Zoo, which seem to dominate Legacy now. The idea is fairly simple: control the board with the sweeping removal and strong creatures, build up lands, then wipe out your opponent's hand, lands, and creatures (and possibly life total) with Death Cloud. The deck is pretty consistent simply because it runs powerful creatures and has an answer for everything.


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
6 [B] Forest (1)
5 [TE] Swamp (4)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 [UD] Yavimaya Elder
2 [M11] Grave Titan
3 [M11] Obstinate Baloth

// Spells
3 [DS] Death Cloud
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 3 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt


CARD NOTES:

Grave Titan: These used to be Garruk Wildspeaker but I found Garruk to be very weak against Zoo, which I saw at every tournament. I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on Garruk--is he too weak against the aggro-heavy format? I'll concede that he's probably better against the control MU, but against Zoo, Garruk rarely survives more than a turn, whereas the Titan's power against aggro cannot be overstated. Grave Titan is simply a bomb vs any deck and this deck gets enough lands to cast him fairly easily with Sakura and Yavimaya Elder. Speaking of which...

Yavimaya Elder: I get a lot of flack for running this guy but I think he's great. At worst, he's a chump blocker that will fetch you two more lands. Keep in mind lots of lands are important so you can Cloud away all of your opponent's lands and have some left. At best, Elder with Stronghold is a recurring 3 for 1 late in the game. Thin out all of the lands and improve your draw.

Maelstrom Pulse: This card is strong and I like being able to deal with anything that pops up game 1. However, it's somewhat slow against zoo, gobs, and folk. Spending turn 3 killing one creature doesn't typically do the trick. A possible maindeck switch would be Damnation, but I'm hesitant because of Pulse's versatility.

I think the others are fairly self-explanatory. The deck top decks very well and most decks just can't keep up with the consistent power of the cards you are playing. The board is in the works, but I often board in Haunting Echoes as a surprise game 2. With all the board clearing spells and Thoughtseize and Pulse, Echoes simply ends games. The rest of the board is pretty straightforward.

One card that I love and used to run in this deck is Unearth. It's fairly strong with the Goyfs/Finks/Elder and especially Witness (think about getting back any spell in your grave for (B). However I recently cut them with the addition of Titan and Baloths--just didn't have the room anymore. But if anyone has any suggestions on how to work them in, they're very strong.

MATCHUPS:

Counterbalance decks: One of Bleen's best matchups. Death Cloud is the all-star here. These decks have trouble keeping up and don't drop enough lands to survive the Cloud. Also keep in mind that a Cloud for 1 or 2 kills Progenitus. Feasible maindeck Progenitus hate is always a plus.

New Horizons: One of Bleen's best matchups. Their counters are easy to play around, and Wasteland is pretty ineffective against Bleen. Cloud devastates them.

43 Lands: I haven't tested extensively vs this deck, but I've never had problems. I've always thought Lands was more of a meta deck. It doesn't really have a way to handle the power of the cards you run.

Zoo: Typically the game is won or lost in the first few turns. If you can survive the initial onslaught, your Finks and Baloths will put the game out of reach for them. And their use of Path to Exile often helps you accelerate into a Deed, which is huge in this matchup.

Landstill: The amount of counters this deck runs can be problematic. Game 1 is tougher because of Humility, but still winnable. Game 2 you bring in Duress and Echoes, and the match is relatively in your favor. Maelstrom Pulse is strong here with the ability to kill planeswalkers as well as a horde of Decree of Justice tokens.

Merfolk: Slightly favorable matchup. Aether Vial makes Cloud somewhat less effective. Damnation certainly gets boarded in. Counters can be problematic, but Folk doesn't run quite enough to keep everything off the board, and it only takes 1 Deed.

Goblins: Like zoo, only tougher. With Vial, Cloud often isn't the final answer, and while Deed is your strongest card here, wiping the board is rarely the end. Vial gives Bleen some problems, and the fact that Goblins is twice as fast as Folk is not good for Bleen. Echoes actually helps on the board and prevents Goblins from recouping in 2 turns after a Damnation like it so often does.

Dredge: Tough match especially game 1, but Sakura helps get rid of Bridge from Below. Obviously Crypt comes in and the match becomes substantially more winnable, but still not a deck I hope to see in a tourney.

Reanimator: Winnable, even game 1, but not something I want to see in a tourney. Cloud for 1 can help, but Iona, Shield of Emeria stops that and pretty much ends the game if it lands early. You board in Crypt and Duress and hope to have board position by the time Iona hits (assuming it does at all).

I'm happy to elaborate on any of the matchups listed here or others.

Sorry for the long-winded post. Curious to hear thoughts and suggestions. This deck is a lot of fun and I think it's superior to traditional Rock/Doran Rock/Survival Rock builds.

[Greenpoe]

Why Obstinate Baloth over Vampire Nighthawk?

[C Rayz Walz]

Why Obstinate Baloth over Vampire Nighthawk?

The biggest reason is that I see a lot of Zoo (and I think I will see even more now that ANT is pretty much dead). Zoo just has a dozen or so ways to kill Nighthawk, and only 1 way (Path) to kill Baloth without using two spells. And Zoo using two spells to get rid of something is always a plus. Additionally, Baloth gives you 4 life right away to get your out of a tough spot quickly.

Baloth is also better vs Goblins and Merfolk. Generally speaking, the matchups Nighthawk improves are not matchups that really need to be improved. Granted, Nighthawk is a great card and I' be glad to hear a pitch for him. But without Jitte, he seems somewhat underwhelming.

On the other hand, if Unearth finds its way back into the deck, Nighthawk may be superior.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Are you the same person as this?

Alternate Universes Legacy Showdown II
Bluebell, PA, USA
16 Jan 2010
Players: 42

1st - Matt Kacala - BG Death Cloud Rock
2nd - Will Magrann - Supreme Blue w/ NO
3rd - Brad Barton - Meandeck Countertop
4th - Ryan McKinney - Reanimator
5th - Nick Coss - Wg Trinistax
6th -Anthony Antonelli - Merfolk
7th - Josh Potucek - UWg Landstill
8th - Karl Kress - Countertop

LISTS

1. Matt Kacala - BG Death Cloud Rock

6 Forest
5 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
2 Yavimaya Elder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Death Cloud
2 Damnation
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Unearth

Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
2 Duress
2 Smother
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Shriekmaw
I have played a very similar version of this deck and found that instead of the Garruk and Unearth in the list above I used Abyssal Persecutor and then used 4 Cabal Therapys instead of 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Eternal Witness, and 1 Kitchen finks. I was very happy with Persecutor and his drawback never cost me a game. His trample, however, did win me games by himself. 4 Kitchen Finks are quite good against zoo, but I found it to be too many against decks that don't go for speed.

My worry with the grave titan is that it costs too much to be able to cast if you draw him after a death cloud. I generally thought the 4 cost Persecutor was too much mana, and that's a lot more reasonable (seeing as you will always have 3 lands out after a DC).

Extra hand hate in general was also extremely good since you can be sure of the opponent not having a hard counter, as well as knowing how much mana to not pump into the Deathcloud in order to pay for Daze/Pierce.

Either way I would have to test out your new additions from M11 to give any real feedback on it but the shell of the deck other than that is quite good.

[C Rayz Walz]

Are you the same person as this?

Yep that's me.

[Vacrix]

I agree with Ignition Phoneix. Grave Titan simply costs too much. You ought to include Unearth again and stick to the 3cc creatures that way Death Cloud is has synergy with the rest of the deck. Also, I really like Garruk here. He untaps whatever lands you have after the Cloud, effectively doubling your post-cloud efficiency at laying down threats, he makes creatures to attack after cloud (or lays down road blocks while you are setting up), and he doesn't even get hit by the Cloud. At 4cc he's the perfect piece of turn 3 acceleration to boost you into a turn 4 Cloud, which is pretty impo if you want to beat faster aggro.

Also, have you considered running post-board Confidant? It looks pretty strong, possibly stronger than post-board Duress. I'm sure Duress also comes in to deal with storm combo but honestly I can't see your limited resources stopping most combo decks. You'll probably creme Belcher with 9 MD sweepers to deal with Goblin tokens, but against TES or DDFT, pairing 4 Thoughtseize with 3 Duress isn't going to stop the deck when you have no hard lock pieces. Even if you try to Cloud away their hand, they will obviously go off before thats possible. I suggest you cut the Duress's for 3 Confidant. Confidant provides you with a CA engine that is already great with your 3 MD SDT.

Otherwise, this deck looks sick.

[Hawdes]

What's OP's thoughts of adding some well needed 1 drops for the deck (except for running thoughtseize there are none), although it's desynergetic with Death Cloud, adding Veteran Explorer might be ok to power out your higher casting cost stuff. We have to take into account that some decks pack tons of non-basic lands and tend to be light on Basics due to the withdrawl of DS and moon-effects.

Just a thought. Haven't tested out the deck yet, but I'm afraid that a wellplaced T1 threat could be devastating, but since you have tournament results that seems pretty good, I might be wrong.

Personally, I prefer the cmc 1-3 build with Unearth over the other "more recent" build. Seems like a solid list with a lot of "Green CA", recurrsion etc. Dunno about cards like Recurring Nightmare but could it be usefull in this kind of deck or it might only work in RecSur builds...
I've always been a fan of Rock decks, but in the current Legacy Format I tend to feel that they're simply too slow. That's why you use Yavimaya Elder I guess, and I don't see any problem with that. He gets you at least 2 cards when going to the bin, 3 at it's most. Pretty nice CA in my book.

I would research the possibilty of adding a split between Sakura and Veteran Explorer (if you're not too afraid of giving your opp 2 basics)

[C Rayz Walz]

What's OP's thoughts of adding some well needed 1 drops for the deck (except for running thoughtseize there are none), although it's desynergetic with Death Cloud, adding Veteran Explorer might be ok to power out your higher casting cost stuff. We have to take into account that some decks pack tons of non-basic lands and tend to be light on Basics due to the withdrawl of DS and moon-effects.

I should start by mentioning that for 1 drops the deck runs Top (a fairly important card in the deck) in addition to Thoughtseize. Between these two cards I think the amount of 1 drops is good enough for the deck. I like that the deck is fairly immune from a lot of the format hosers like Chalice and nonbasic hate.

I've actually tested with Veteran Explorer a while back and wasn't really a fan. As you mentioned, he doesn't work well with Cloud, and I found that most decks, even the ones that run loads of nonbasics, always had a basic or two they could toss down. This is really a problem when you're trying to get to a situation where you can Cloud all of their lands and save a few of your own. With Sakura and Elder, the deck doesn't miss land drops very often, and I don't usually get mana-screwed.

I think as far as Recurring Nightmare I'd have to agree with your suspicion that it's more of a fit with Survival rock types, and putting it in Bleen would require changing a lot of cards to take advantage of Recurring Nightmare.

In regards to a well-placed T1 threat being devastating, this only really happens against Goblins with Lackey. The deck does have trouble responding to a turn 1 lackey, and depending on the rest of their hand it can sometimes be impossible to recover from. That said, I really don't think Veteran Explorer is answer there. In my earlier testing, it Veteran Explorer would just allow Goblins to kill me a turn earlier. As for other matchups with stronger 1 drops, nothing is really fast enough, especially if I'm on the play, to really seal the deal with a 1 drop. Zoo is probably the second best at this (with Necatl, Ape, etc) but I'm usually able to drop enough creatures in front of theirs to survive to a Deed or Cloud, which pretty much ends the game.

Thanks for your comments; I'm interested to hear your thoughts on what I've said above.

[C Rayz Walz]

Hmm comments seem to have slowed...

Someone tell me why this isn't the best deck in Legacy.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Hmm comments seem to have slowed...

Someone tell me why this isn't the best deck in Legacy.

Because every half decent combo deck has a flat out bye against you.
Also, well timed counterspells on your overly expensive bombs can keep you out of the game.
And zoo can steamroll you before deed and such come online.
And you cant deal with T1 Lackey.

So thats why I guess.

[C Rayz Walz]

Because every half decent combo deck has a flat out bye against you.
Also, well timed counterspells on your overly expensive bombs can keep you out of the game.
And zoo can steamroll you before deed and such come online.
And you cant deal with T1 Lackey.

So thats why I guess.

ANT is dead, and the deck boards in 3 Duress, giving it 7 discard spells. I wouldn't say that's a bye for combo, but fair point, combo is tough.

Saving counterspells for Cloud or Titan (or Garruk, I'm still debating that) leaves you open to Goyf, Baloth, Finks, Deed, etc. I've tested against plenty of decks running counters and it's never really been a problem. Most of the top decks that run counters don't even run that many. They have to be selective, and you can't be selective against this deck.

Zoo can steamroll before Deed comes online, but it doesn't happen too often. Sakura slows them down as does Goyf, and Finks and Baloth are very hard for them to deal with. Also I've done some more testing and will probably go back to 3 Unearths, which also helps against Zoo (or anything, really).

I conceded the turn 1 lackey point, but it's not too hard to deal with it when I'm on the play. Thoughtseize, sakura, Goyf are all answers. I've tested the matchup a lot and it is solid enough that I'm not concerned with it.

I was mostly kidding about this deck being the best in the format, but I'm not kidding when I say it has very few "horrible" matchups and several very strong matchups. The bulk of the matchups are slightly in its favor. It may seem like an unlikely contender cause it doesn't absolutely thrash anything besides Threshold, Lands, and New Horizons, but the deck is very strong and doesn't really have an auto-lose matchup.

[MrShine]

Have you tried Innocent Blood at all? It seems like a good way to deal with T1 threats from Goblins and Zoo, which are apparently problems. There is also synergy there with Finks and Y. Elder.

It definitely seems like it rolls over to combo... It has always been a problem with Rock decks. Maybe if we look to move into the realm of Chalice @ 1? You already avoid lots of 1 drops, so if the manabase could be fandangled into including something like City of Traitors (maybe along w/ Crucible, which has added synergy w/ death cloud) or Ancient Tomb (the damage looks like it could be a liability), it could be promising. Having lands that produce 2 hanging around after a Death Cloud helps you gain an advantage (also why Garruk is good here); I think in the older extended builds they used Golgari Rot Farm to this effect (not that I'm suggesting that here). Not to mention that when you are using STE and other similar effects to bring lands into play, and not CAST them per-se, then City would stick around. Still, I've never played w/ the card (in combo with Crucible either), so I don't know how it feels to have a jumpy curve.

However, the overarching issue here is playing with lands that tap for colourless in a deck that CRAVES coloured mana. Maybe we should look to Mox Diamond? It doesn't play well with Deed but it still lets us gain DC advantage. If we did want to use Mox DIamond, I would go with Engineered Explosives main, which saves our accelerators as well as gives us a faster defense against zoo and gobbos.

Just some thoughts.

MrShine

PS - I also agree that Grave Titan is WAY too slow without some serious acceleration. MAYBE as a 1 of to finish the game but our other beasts can do that quite admirably anyway (I'm looking at you, Tarmogoyf)

PPS - Didn't see your post there. ANT may be dead, but TES is not and WILL rip us a new hole somewhere should we square off vs them

[C Rayz Walz]

Have you tried Innocent Blood at all? It seems like a good way to deal with T1 threats from Goblins and Zoo, which are apparently problems. There is also synergy there with Finks and Y. Elder.

It definitely seems like it rolls over to combo... It has always been a problem with Rock decks. Maybe if we look to move into the realm of Chalice @ 1? You already avoid lots of 1 drops, so if the manabase could be fandangled into including something like City of Traitors (maybe along w/ Crucible, which has added synergy w/ death cloud) or Ancient Tomb (the damage looks like it could be a liability), it could be promising. Having lands that produce 2 hanging around after a Death Cloud helps you gain an advantage (also why Garruk is good here); I think in the older extended builds they used Golgari Rot Farm to this effect (not that I'm suggesting that here). Not to mention that when you are using STE and other similar effects to bring lands into play, and not CAST them per-se, then City would stick around. Still, I've never played w/ the card (in combo with Crucible either), so I don't know how it feels to have a jumpy curve.

However, the overarching issue here is playing with lands that tap for colourless in a deck that CRAVES coloured mana. Maybe we should look to Mox Diamond? It doesn't play well with Deed but it still lets us gain DC advantage. If we did want to use Mox DIamond, I would go with Engineered Explosives main, which saves our accelerators as well as gives us a faster defense against zoo and gobbos.

Just some thoughts.

MrShine

PS - I also agree that Grave Titan is WAY too slow without some serious acceleration. MAYBE as a 1 of to finish the game but our other beasts can do that quite admirably anyway (I'm looking at you, Tarmogoyf)

PPS - Didn't see your post there. ANT may be dead, but TES is not and WILL rip us a new hole somewhere should we square off vs them

I'm looking into the following changes but still need to do some testing:
-2 Grave Titan
-3 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Garruk
+3 Unearth

The Unearth really solidifies the Zoo matchup, which is important since Garruk is somewhat weak vs Zoo and other aggro. I found Maelstrom Pulse to be too slow and inefficient, though I'll have to test more to see if I really miss it vs Landstill and CB (although CB is not a tough matchup).

Addressing the combo issue, I need to test against TES. I don't see it that often but on paper it seems like a terrible matchup and something that obviously needs to be addressed to the extent possible on the board. Regarding other "combo" matchups, I've never lost to Belcher (but haven't tested extensively vs it) and I've never felt overwhelmed vs Dredge. It's very winnable.

I encourage anyone who's interested to test the deck out. It might be easy to pick holes in on paper (e.g., the 1-drop thing), but really when you play it you will not find it to be a problem. The deck has surprising card advantage with all the sweeps, witness, unearth, Finks, Cloud, Stronghold. Most decks in the format really have trouble with this.

[imanujakku]

unearth is probably better but i find life/death a lot of fun to play especially if you can build garruk up to ultimate.

[C Rayz Walz]

unearth is probably better but i find life/death a lot of fun to play especially if you can build garruk up to ultimate.

Life/Death isn't a bad card but I agree Unearth seems better on all accounts. Don't forget that it cycles! Also, I rarely get to the ultimate ability with Garruk. I'm either getting threats onto the board or using his untap ability for a Cloud (after which turning all my lands into 1/1s seems less cool). That's one of the problems with Garruk compared to Elspeth or Jace 2.0-his count-up ability isn't very useful to do over and over.

[vlz-]

I've been playing something similar to this in response to the massive increase in zoo where I play. The deck's a ton of fun to play and draws a lot of skepticism, but it wins and the zoo matchup pretty is stacked.

4 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Ob nixilis (ahh yeah)
3 Sakura Tribe Elder
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Krosan Tusker

4 Swords to plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughseize

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savanna
3 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Plains

Main difference is white for swords and ob nixilis / veteren explorer in place of death cloud. Ob nixilis can be pretty baller, and the jittes can make explorers and STE must deal with creatures. Getting rid of spot removal and accelerating your land base for basically 1/2cc. I find that veteran explorer is almost always heavily in your favor with much higher quality threats to spend your mana on. It's easy to say Ob is simply unplayable in Legacy, but really give it a shot. He ends up being lethal really fast and theres a lot of creatures (especially with jitte) for your opponent to spend spot removal on before Ob hits the field.

[Hawdes]

I've been playing something similar to this in response to the massive increase in zoo where I play. The deck's a ton of fun to play and draws a lot of skepticism, but it wins and the zoo matchup pretty is stacked.

4 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Ob nixilis (ahh yeah)
3 Sakura Tribe Elder
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Krosan Tusker

4 Swords to plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughseize

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savanna
3 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Plains

Main difference is white for swords and ob nixilis / veteren explorer in place of death cloud. Ob nixilis can be pretty baller, and the jittes can make explorers and STE must deal with creatures. Getting rid of spot removal and accelerating your land base for basically 1/2cc. I find that veteran explorer is almost always heavily in your favor with much higher quality threats to spend your mana on. It's easy to say Ob is simply unplayable in Legacy, but really give it a shot. He ends up being lethal really fast and theres a lot of creatures (especially with jitte) for your opponent to spend spot removal on before Ob hits the field.

I would be more comfortable running Eternal Witness though, for recurrance of creatures aswell as disruption elements that affect your opponent.
I'm currently working on a Rock build that utilizes cmc 1-3, Unearth, Aether Vial and Survival of the Fittest. I might end up playing something different though. Just testing how good Green and Black "CA" can be and how far it goes.

[Vacrix]

Just so you know, you will have trouble selling most people on this site that a single deck is 'the best deck in legacy'. Even Forbiddian and Pi4 couldn't do that with data so how do you expect to do it with theory and a few top 8's? Its not the best deck in the format because fundamentally the format cannot have a best deck. You will always lose to something, and with Rock variants, that something is probably combo.

Jeff Kruchkow is right. You die to Lackey, TES, and sometimes Zoo. I suggest you try this configuration:
-4 Thoughtseize
-4 Sakura Tribe Elder
-1 Eternal Witness
-3 Malestrom Pulse
+4 Veteran Explorer
+4 Cabal Therapy
+4 Innocent Blood

8 sac-outlets makes Veteran Explorer a good version of Sakura Tribe Elder (its soooooo bad), that is if it doesn't just chump something. Post-board, -3 Duress from your board +3 Dark Confidant. SDT and Confidant have great synergy that will help you lay down threats and keep up with control. Punt your storm matchup. Its already horrible. Veteran Explorer and Innocent Blood also function as x8 ways to answer Lackey, though Explorer will obviously sometimes get bounced or killed before he can block.

EDIT:
Did I mention that lands from Explorer come into play untapped? Nice isn't it. You can chain spells together pretty cleverly sometimes like. Turn 1 Cabal Therapy, Turn 2 Veteran Explorer (2 lands in play already), Flashback Therapy, now you have 3 mana. That leaves you room to drop a fast Goyf to stall for a bit, or another acceleration piece, or hell, turn 2 Deed.

[Hawdes]

Just so you know, you will have trouble selling most people on this site that a single deck is 'the best deck in legacy'. Even Forbiddian and Pi4 couldn't do that with data so how do you expect to do it with theory and a few top 8's? Its not the best deck in the format because fundamentally the format cannot have a best deck. You will always lose to something, and with Rock variants, that something is probably combo.

Jeff Kruchkow is right. You die to Lackey, TES, and sometimes Zoo. I suggest you try this configuration:
-4 Thoughtseize
-4 Sakura Tribe Elder
-1 Eternal Witness
-3 Malestrom Pulse
+4 Veteran Explorer
+4 Cabal Therapy
+4 Innocent Blood

8 sac-outlets makes Veteran Explorer a good version of Sakura Tribe Elder (its soooooo bad), that is if it doesn't just chump something. Post-board, -3 Duress from your board +3 Dark Confidant. SDT and Confidant have great synergy that will help you lay down threats and keep up with control. Punt your storm matchup. Its already horrible. Veteran Explorer and Innocent Blood also function as x8 ways to answer Lackey, though Explorer will obviously sometimes get bounced or killed before he can block.

EDIT:
Did I mention that lands from Explorer come into play untapped? Nice isn't it. You can chain spells together pretty cleverly sometimes like. Turn 1 Cabal Therapy, Turn 2 Veteran Explorer (2 lands in play already), Flashback Therapy, now you have 3 mana. That leaves you room to drop a fast Goyf to stall for a bit, or another acceleration piece, or hell, turn 2 Deed.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, but since Combo seems to be played less it's the right call to lean towards Rock decks since they have great game against creature decks and decent matchups against control and random rouge decks. Especially when it packs Survival of the Fittest.

I cannot more than agree that one must have an answer against Lackey, Steppe Lynx or whatnot in a format that will more and more be dominated by creature decks (since the banning of Mystical Tutor). That's why Veteran Explorer fills that important T1 drop slot since Rock decks tend to be Mid-range decks and need the mana, Innocent Blood also has nice synergies with the Veteran Explorer and other creatures available to us.
I would only play STE if I filled up the VE slots and need more fetch, but I would probably go to Yavimaya Elder before playing STE since he gets me at least two cards and a possibility of getting three. I would much rather run Wall of Blossoms as a two drop than STE since he's a house against the basic Zoo dorks and also replaces himself with a card (nice fodder to Cabal Therapy and if you have Volrath's or Genesis it could become a mid-game card engine).
One could build a Rock deck and all the builds would vary due to personal taste, but I wouldn't run any spells above four or even five mana that doesn't swing the game to your favour.

Although combo isn't dead, it's nothing that people will take to tournaments unless they're dedicated combo players. The combo decks we could expect to be paired against are probably Belcher variations, TES decks, Aluren (popularity gain), or some other rogue combo decks since people tend to get desperate when cards gets banned, but the most important factor is that the majority of combo decks have lost their "go to spell" when debating resilliance, toolbox answers etc. This would slow them down a notch. One could analyze the meta game swing into infinity, but if someone pilots a Combo deck in a chosen meta that lets their guard down (many clearly believe that many combo decks are dead) against combo, they could easily take them by surprise if they're good pilots.

[C Rayz Walz]

Especially when it packs Survival of the Fittest.

I've tested Survival Rock and I've found that the deck is too dependent on Survival. Just much less consistent. Too each his own, though. Clearly the card is powerful and when you do get it, it's a must-deal-with. But I don't think it fits here.


I cannot more than agree that one must have an answer against Lackey, Steppe Lynx...

As I've said, I agree turn 1 Lackey can be tough to deal with. But I cannot emphasize enough that first turn Lynx, Necatl, Ape, etc. really is not that tough to deal with. You will stabilize with STE, Finks and Baloth and eventually Deed or Cloud. However, I will probably take another look at Veteran Explorer since he seems to be the consensus replacement for STE. One of my problems with him though is having to add in Therapy, but I suppose that can be decent with Elder, Witness, Finks.


I would much rather run Wall of Blossoms as a two drop than STE since he's a house against the basic Zoo dorks and also replaces himself with a card (nice fodder to Cabal Therapy and if you have Volrath's or Genesis it could become a mid-game card engine).

I like Wall of Blossoms but I don't see him in this deck. That slot needs to be for getting lands or some other mana. The draw is nice but simply not enough to justify filling up that spot. Also, I don't really understand how with Stronghold or Genesis the Wall becomes a card drawing engine. Sure, you may have 1 or a Therapy in your grave to draw once or twice, but that's the extent of it. The real engine is Stronghold/Elder, if anything.


One could build a Rock deck and all the builds would vary due to personal taste, but I wouldn't run any spells above four or even five mana that doesn't swing the game to your favour.

I'm assuming you're referring to Grave Titan, so let me say this. While I'm questioning whether he's too slow, I'm certainly not debating whether he swings the game in your favor. The card is an absolute bomb against just about any deck. 10 power for 6 mana, with more on the way, and once he's on the board you can easily Cloud away everything else for the win (not that you have to, because Titan often wins by himself). But I do see him being too slow. The only other cards in this deck that are above 4cc are Death Cloud (potentially) and Haunting Echoes (in the board), and I assure you they both swing the game in your favor.

Regarding combo, I think I've mentioned that the only currently viable combo deck that really worries me is TES, but even then I don't see it often. I'm willing to forego that matchup for a deck that has solid matchups vs just about anything else in the format.

In closing, I encourage everyone to test this deck, particularly against Zoo, so we can get past this crazy notion that the matchup is tough or that their 1-drops are game-enders.

[Hawdes]

Ok, I've tested both the basic Rock approach (Bleen of you would like to call it that) and Rock including Survial of the Fittest.
I played 15-20 matches each against both merfolk and Zoo...
I clearly see a pattern with Bleen that must be adressed, your lifetotal decreases to a point where you cannot cast a Death Cloud without hurting yourself sufficiently that you would be open to a massive blowout.
I won 5 games out of 15 against Merfolk with Bleen (with slight modifications to the list, adding Veteran Explorer, Innocent Blood and Inquisition of Kozilek), maybe my draws were unlucky but this deck can't stabilize fast enough.
Matchup against Zoo was terrible, Deed was too slow, never drew Damnation in time and I really missed having Wall of Blossoms here since he buys the deck precious time (unboltable and pretty much stands in the way of everything in Zoo). I won 6 matches out of 15 only due to chaining Finks, disrupt the hand taking away StP/PtE and resolving Damnation a couple of times leaving me with persisted finks.

The only way I see this deck to be able to win the aggro matchups are if you chain hand-disruption together with Kitchen Finks, but that does not happen as often.
Out of the 5 wins against Merfolk and my 6 against Zoo, I felt that the pase of the deck has to be risen. Might be able to do that with Vial or something. There's not much going on in those attrition wars.

With the Survival version I actually was able to pull of an outstanding 10 wins against the same Merfolk deck since Survival helped me get those key answer cards when needed. I teamed the SotF with Aether Vial to maximize the amount of mana I could use each turn which imo is important for mid-range decks. This version though had hard times against Zoo since SotF rearly stuck the table for more than 1-2 turns. The list I ran used Wall of Blossom, Witness, Finks and Goyf as main pieces and the rest was filled with silver bullets (ran two Shriekmaws for recurring spot-removal) and it was pretty decent.
I do agree that when playing SotF the rest of the deck remains a tad inconsistant and slower than Rock decks not playing SotF. SotF also forces one to play three colors to get the maximum out of your silver bullets.

I have no real conclusion though. Lists need more testing and tweaking. Just took the decks for a spin to see how much work they needed. The only thing I can say is that when Rock decks do great, they're amazing, but when they don't draw their key cards they simply can't compete. I love Rock though.
This little test do NOT mean that OPs deck isn't good or that survival is better. It only says that either list needs some tender love and work. I also had some pretty nice rounds when playing the Survival list and some luck.

[C Rayz Walz]

Ok, I've tested both the basic Rock approach (Bleen of you would like to call it that) and Rock including Survial of the Fittest.
I played 15-20 matches each against both merfolk and Zoo...
I clearly see a pattern with Bleen that must be adressed, your lifetotal decreases to a point where you cannot cast a Death Cloud without hurting yourself sufficiently that you would be open to a massive blowout.
I won 5 games out of 15 against Merfolk with Bleen (with slight modifications to the list, adding Veteran Explorer, Innocent Blood and Inquisition of Kozilek), maybe my draws were unlucky but this deck can't stabilize fast enough.
Matchup against Zoo was terrible, Deed was too slow, never drew Damnation in time and I really missed having Wall of Blossoms here since he buys the deck precious time (unboltable and pretty much stands in the way of everything in Zoo). I won 6 matches out of 15 only due to chaining Finks, disrupt the hand taking away StP/PtE and resolving Damnation a couple of times leaving me with persisted finks.

The only way I see this deck to be able to win the aggro matchups are if you chain hand-disruption together with Kitchen Finks, but that does not happen as often.
Out of the 5 wins against Merfolk and my 6 against Zoo, I felt that the pase of the deck has to be risen. Might be able to do that with Vial or something. There's not much going on in those attrition wars.

With the Survival version I actually was able to pull of an outstanding 10 wins against the same Merfolk deck since Survival helped me get those key answer cards when needed. I teamed the SotF with Aether Vial to maximize the amount of mana I could use each turn which imo is important for mid-range decks. This version though had hard times against Zoo since SotF rearly stuck the table for more than 1-2 turns. The list I ran used Wall of Blossom, Witness, Finks and Goyf as main pieces and the rest was filled with silver bullets (ran two Shriekmaws for recurring spot-removal) and it was pretty decent.
I do agree that when playing SotF the rest of the deck remains a tad inconsistant and slower than Rock decks not playing SotF. SotF also forces one to play three colors to get the maximum out of your silver bullets.

I have no real conclusion though. Lists need more testing and tweaking. Just took the decks for a spin to see how much work they needed. The only thing I can say is that when Rock decks do great, they're amazing, but when they don't draw their key cards they simply can't compete. I love Rock though.
This little test do NOT mean that OPs deck isn't good or that survival is better. It only says that either list needs some tender love and work. I also had some pretty nice rounds when playing the Survival list and some luck.

Cool thanks for the update, I'm glad at least 1 person out there is as interested in this deck as I am. Can you share what you took out for the Explorers, Inquisitions, Innocent Bloods, (Therapies?)?

Not sure if you saw my earlier post but after some more testing I'm fairly convinced Titan is too slow and will be going back to 2 Garruks. Also, Maelstrom Pulse hasn't been doing it for me and is too slow vs aggro, so I went back to Unearths x3. The card is nuts with witness, elder, finks. Even a Goyf after a Cloud.

I've also tested Explorer and confirmed my suspicions that I still don't like it. Very bad synergy with Death Cloud (whether it dies before or during Cloud, it works against the whole "out land-drop your opponent" idea). It also seems to make the aggro matchup worse, rather than allowing you to accelerate to an earlier Deed (which was the only benefit I could see).

If you have some time, I'd highly recommend testing with the original version I've posted, -2 Titan; -3 Pulse; +3 Unearth; +2 Garruk. I'm curious to hear someone else's opinion on that build, as I think it's different in some key ways from the version you tested.

Finally, I tested Confidant in the board in place of Duress, and I was pleased with the results and it probably deserves a spot there. Will keep you posted when I get more testing results.

[C Rayz Walz]

As a side note, I call the deck "Bleen" to differentiate it slightly from traditional Rock, which does not run Death Cloud and is often more graveyard-oriented (i.e., Genesis). Also I like saying the word "Bleen."

[Vacrix]

Also, ignore my posts. I hear it makes your deck much better.

[Hawdes]

Cool thanks for the update, I'm glad at least 1 person out there is as interested in this deck as I am. Can you share what you took out for the Explorers, Inquisitions, Innocent Bloods, (Therapies?)?

Not sure if you saw my earlier post but after some more testing I'm fairly convinced Titan is too slow and will be going back to 2 Garruks. Also, Maelstrom Pulse hasn't been doing it for me and is too slow vs aggro, so I went back to Unearths x3. The card is nuts with witness, elder, finks. Even a Goyf after a Cloud.

I've also tested Explorer and confirmed my suspicions that I still don't like it. Very bad synergy with Death Cloud (whether it dies before or during Cloud, it works against the whole "out land-drop your opponent" idea). It also seems to make the aggro matchup worse, rather than allowing you to accelerate to an earlier Deed (which was the only benefit I could see).

If you have some time, I'd highly recommend testing with the original version I've posted, -2 Titan; -3 Pulse; +3 Unearth; +2 Garruk. I'm curious to hear someone else's opinion on that build, as I think it's different in some key ways from the version you tested.

Finally, I tested Confidant in the board in place of Duress, and I was pleased with the results and it probably deserves a spot there. Will keep you posted when I get more testing results.

I tested the list that did run unearth and the other stuff later posted in the thread, playing 10 additional test games with STE and half of those with Veteran Explorer. It did not matter that much whichever drop I ran. They both had pros and cons. STE worked better under Death Cloud as you mentioned, but Veteran Explorer worked overall better with the other cards in the deck (since a lot of cards are mana intensive).
I replaced some other cards for Cabal Therapy and Innocent Blood (check the reply from Vacrix about replacing cards).

The list I ran packing Inquisition of Kozilek, Cabal Therapies and Explorers (and a different creature base) was the survival deck. So I did not test Inquisition in your deck but I do think that the deck needs more added hand disruption or something that lets you interact with your opponent besides whiping all creatues. Deed alone does not really answer all the cards that need to be answered, besides it's a tad slow.

Instead of running Damnation, I had recurring creature denial loops with Genesis/Volrath's Stronghold with creatures like Shriekmaw and Fleshbag Marauder aswell as other Evoke/sacrificeable answers in the side (played BGw Survival Rock). I also removed Death Cloud since I ended up going with Veteran Explorer to ensure that I could drop my more effective creatures, which resulted in 3 additional slots for targeted hand disruption. I even managed to include 2 Enlightened tutors (in place of Sensei) to raise the probability of me finding SotF, Deed and sideboard options due to the addition of white in the deck.

The only reasons I have for liking Survival of the Fittest more in a deck that revolves around stable and efficient creatures, are that at any given time during the game I could get the answers I want and that Survival is a threat by itself if let alone in a deck with much mana. Rock decks tend to have better creature quality than other decks since we opt for the mid-game rather than going for a fast win. This is why cards as Wall of Blossoms are great for this deck since it has a fat body that withstands the most bolts and also replaces itself (great Therapy fodder aswell as Recurring Nightmare fodder).

[C Rayz Walz]

Also, ignore my posts. I hear it makes your deck much better.

¿Que?

[Phoenix Ignition]

As I've actually been playing and testing lists similar to the OP ever since I saw the first place finish and thought "How the hell did deathcloud win a Legacy tournament?" I'd like to add in my opinions here.

C Rayz: Don't take many suggestions here seriously. Most people who look at the deck will never play it and just say "huh, 6 casting cost seems too high, dont run it. Sakura Tribe Elder is bad, don't run it" but are mostly wrong. The Grave Titan is quite expensive, but I'm beginning to like it more and more. Veteran Explorer is complete trash in this deck. I'll explain all of this in a second.

The OP list is almost what I would run. The exceptions are I still don't like 3 witness, I still don't like 3 Maelstrom pulse, I still don't like 3 top, and I don't like 3 Obstinate Baloth.

Witness: Now if you choose to run Unearth he would be a fine 3-of, but in this list you don't have unearth. You very rarely will want to play him even within the first 5 turns of the game, much less by third turn. You rarely even have a fetch in the graveyard to grab by turn 3, and witnessing for a Sakura is just plain bad.

Unearth: I like this card with witness as it makes a cute wall of 2/1s for 1 black mana, so it may be worth it, I just have always been opposed to this card because it is useless in the first couple turns and after that it might not even be useful.

Maelstrom Pulse: Still a great card but you have better options than having 3 of these. I really like 2 as a solve-all answer to Planeswalkers or problem enchantments, but against things like zoo or tribal it will largely just be a slow removal spell.

Top: The 3 of top... I've never put 3 tops in any deck that doesn't use either counterbalance or Scrying Sheets. My reason is that first of all you aren't even going to use it to set up draws until at least turn 4 and drawing 2 in any starting hand is quite bad. The deck has built in card advantage so you don't need to use extensive filters to find powerful cards. Deeds, Pulse, Damnation, Finks, Garruk, Witness, and the few other cards you choose to run have card advantage built in, making the top effect less potent until mid-late game. It may help out a few games when you use it early but drawing multiples is not good at all. I would run 2.

Obstinate Baloth: Great card against Zoo. At one point in time I was trying to splash white for Loxodon Hierarch in this deck against zoo, no joke. Then they go ahead and print exactly the card I was looking for. With 4 finks main you might want to drop the baloths to 2. They are great against the fast aggro decks of the format, but against any control deck or bant/new horizons deck that just runs fatties and goyfs he isn't that impressive. Also clogging your 4 slot is bad.

Damnation: I'm still running it as a 2-of. It just blows out so many decks that don't see it coming, and most of your creatures live through it or give up the cause to give you more card advantage. I wouldn't take it out of the main, as it is a huge powerhouse against so many decks right now.

Veteran Explorer: This card is terrible. Absolute garbage. Your deck is designed to get out more lands than the opponent and utilize larger casting cost creatures at the same point in the game where the opponent is playing their low curve creatures. If you give goblins 2 extra mountains or zoo 2 extra lands they get to drop their entire hand and crush you before your single baloth or kitchen finks can come out and wall them. Sure, you both get out lands and you play bigger casting cost spells, but they get around that by being able to play many spells per turn whereas you still just drop 1 per turn. Not to even start mentioning how anti-synergetic it is with Deathcloud.

Sakura Tribe Elder: One of the single greatest cards in the deck. Accelerates your actual land-drops without having to stay in play, and while chump blocking fatties. Accelerates you into Baloths and Damnations turn 3, or sets up a huge death cloud or shuffle effect for you later game. I would never drop this under 4. (also he has helped me out of plenty mana or color screw issues). The one reason this deck crushes bant is because they accelerate with an easily death clouded noble hierarch while you accelerate with actual lands.

Deathcloud: MVP of the deck. I can't tell you how many times I've restarted the opponent's board and hand while still having a creature in play. Against zoo I think I've gotten the most critical mass death clouds bringing their hand and board to 0 cards.

Lastly I'd like to mention Grave Titan. He is not as bad as I originally thought because of the matchups where he excels. My favorite reason is that a turn 3 show and tell of the opponent putting in an Emrakul loses them the game if you put in Grave titan and have at least 3 lands and 2 other permanents on the board when he does it. Deathtouch means he can't block the titan with emrakul and the tokens get in the extra 8 damage as long as you turn 1 attack with only titan, turn 2 attack with titan and 4 tokens (so you need to sac 6 other permanents, unless they have fetched this game).

Second reason I like him is that he is the only decent creature that can kill planeswalkers like jace or elspeth in this deck. Token generation on both attack and comes into play means that jace cant bounce him and elspeth cant just token a turn block him. I had Abyssal Persecutor before but Jace consistently bounces him until they draw a counter.

And the last reason I like him is that if you do drop him he will win you the game against almost every deck in legacy. 6 casting cost is a ton, but you pump out lands incredibly efficiently. I'm running 2 Garruk main to help with the Titan cost too.

[Hawdes]

As I've actually been playing and testing lists similar to the OP ever since I saw the first place finish and thought "How the hell did deathcloud win a Legacy tournament?" I'd like to add in my opinions here.

C Rayz: Don't take many suggestions here seriously. Most people who look at the deck will never play it and just say "huh, 6 casting cost seems too high, dont run it. Sakura Tribe Elder is bad, don't run it" but are mostly wrong. The Grave Titan is quite expensive, but I'm beginning to like it more and more. Veteran Explorer is complete trash in this deck. I'll explain all of this in a second.

The OP list is almost what I would run. The exceptions are I still don't like 3 witness, I still don't like 3 Maelstrom pulse, I still don't like 3 top, and I don't like 3 Obstinate Baloth.

Witness: Now if you choose to run Unearth he would be a fine 3-of, but in this list you don't have unearth. You very rarely will want to play him even within the first 5 turns of the game, much less by third turn. You rarely even have a fetch in the graveyard to grab by turn 3, and witnessing for a Sakura is just plain bad.

Unearth: I like this card with witness as it makes a cute wall of 2/1s for 1 black mana, so it may be worth it, I just have always been opposed to this card because it is useless in the first couple turns and after that it might not even be useful.

Maelstrom Pulse: Still a great card but you have better options than having 3 of these. I really like 2 as a solve-all answer to Planeswalkers or problem enchantments, but against things like zoo or tribal it will largely just be a slow removal spell.

Top: The 3 of top... I've never put 3 tops in any deck that doesn't use either counterbalance or Scrying Sheets. My reason is that first of all you aren't even going to use it to set up draws until at least turn 4 and drawing 2 in any starting hand is quite bad. The deck has built in card advantage so you don't need to use extensive filters to find powerful cards. Deeds, Pulse, Damnation, Finks, Garruk, Witness, and the few other cards you choose to run have card advantage built in, making the top effect less potent until mid-late game. It may help out a few games when you use it early but drawing multiples is not good at all. I would run 2.

Obstinate Baloth: Great card against Zoo. At one point in time I was trying to splash white for Loxodon Hierarch in this deck against zoo, no joke. Then they go ahead and print exactly the card I was looking for. With 4 finks main you might want to drop the baloths to 2. They are great against the fast aggro decks of the format, but against any control deck or bant/new horizons deck that just runs fatties and goyfs he isn't that impressive. Also clogging your 4 slot is bad.

Damnation: I'm still running it as a 2-of. It just blows out so many decks that don't see it coming, and most of your creatures live through it or give up the cause to give you more card advantage. I wouldn't take it out of the main, as it is a huge powerhouse against so many decks right now.

Veteran Explorer: This card is terrible. Absolute garbage. Your deck is designed to get out more lands than the opponent and utilize larger casting cost creatures at the same point in the game where the opponent is playing their low curve creatures. If you give goblins 2 extra mountains or zoo 2 extra lands they get to drop their entire hand and crush you before your single baloth or kitchen finks can come out and wall them. Sure, you both get out lands and you play bigger casting cost spells, but they get around that by being able to play many spells per turn whereas you still just drop 1 per turn. Not to even start mentioning how anti-synergetic it is with Deathcloud.

Sakura Tribe Elder: One of the single greatest cards in the deck. Accelerates your actual land-drops without having to stay in play, and while chump blocking fatties. Accelerates you into Baloths and Damnations turn 3, or sets up a huge death cloud or shuffle effect for you later game. I would never drop this under 4. (also he has helped me out of plenty mana or color screw issues). The one reason this deck crushes bant is because they accelerate with an easily death clouded noble hierarch while you accelerate with actual lands.

Deathcloud: MVP of the deck. I can't tell you how many times I've restarted the opponent's board and hand while still having a creature in play. Against zoo I think I've gotten the most critical mass death clouds bringing their hand and board to 0 cards.

Lastly I'd like to mention Grave Titan. He is not as bad as I originally thought because of the matchups where he excels. My favorite reason is that a turn 3 show and tell of the opponent putting in an Emrakul loses them the game if you put in Grave titan and have at least 3 lands and 2 other permanents on the board when he does it. Deathtouch means he can't block the titan with emrakul and the tokens get in the extra 8 damage as long as you turn 1 attack with only titan, turn 2 attack with titan and 4 tokens (so you need to sac 6 other permanents, unless they have fetched this game).

Second reason I like him is that he is the only decent creature that can kill planeswalkers like jace or elspeth in this deck. Token generation on both attack and comes into play means that jace cant bounce him and elspeth cant just token a turn block him. I had Abyssal Persecutor before but Jace consistently bounces him until they draw a counter.

And the last reason I like him is that if you do drop him he will win you the game against almost every deck in legacy. 6 casting cost is a ton, but you pump out lands incredibly efficiently. I'm running 2 Garruk main to help with the Titan cost too.

I did in fact say that it's a matter of personal taste wether you go with VE or STE. I did take the ops deck for a spin (47 rounds exactly against different matchups) but it lost too many damn games due to not being able to stabilize in time. But I agree that Veteran Explorer does NOT fit a deck with a gameplan consisting of backstabbing opponents lands. But there has to be a way to deal with a early threats.

Decks in legacy today can easiliy deal 10 damage by turn 2 and that's nothing this deck can withstand. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept (I own a playset of Death Cloud and I've always wanted to play them) but it's too demanding in resources. It's a fine line between running sweepers and applying pressure with Rock decks.

Compare the spells above cmc 4 in Rock with other decks and clearly see the power differance between this and them. The rock player plays a Baloth for 4, Bant decks play NO for Prog, or why not Bant Survival which searches for Loyal Retainers, returning Ioona naming black.
These are all devastating plays compared to a "I gain 4 life and have a 4/4 guy", decks in the Rock department often suffer from gas-depletion or from lesser card quality due to poor choices in deckbuilding (decks tend to become too cute). That's what Death Cloud is, it's a Smallpox for 4 at the worst and it requires so many things to connect. That's why I cut it due to it being too mana craving opposed to other spells.

Of course, Death Cloud is a blow out when X = above 3... But in all seriousness, by the time we obtain 6 mana and more, we'll probably be dead in this fastpaced meta.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I did in fact say that it's a matter of personal taste wether you go with VE or STE. I did take the ops deck for a spin (47 rounds exactly against different matchups) but it lost too many damn games due to not being able to stabilize in time. But I agree that Veteran Explorer does NOT fit a deck with a gameplan consisting of backstabbing opponents lands. But there has to be a way to deal with a early threats.
Veteran Explorer doesn't belong in any deck even remotely close to this style. Veteran Explorer chump blocks one threat and dies, giving the opponent a huge tempo boost. Sakura Tribe Elder does the same thing, a turn later, but gives you land advantage instead of them. Veteran explorer is absolutely terrible specifically because everyone runs 1, 2, and a few 3 drops. You accelerate them into their biggest spell by turn 2. STE accelerates you into turn 3 where you can drop: Damnation, Deeds for 1 (quite potent against zoo), Baloth, or Garruk + 2 drop. All of these save you from their turn 3-4 kill quite well. Add in Kitchen Finks and you stabilize very quickly.


Decks in legacy today can easiliy deal 10 damage by turn 2 and that's nothing this deck can withstand. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept (I own a playset of Death Cloud and I've always wanted to play them) but it's too demanding in resources. It's a fine line between running sweepers and applying pressure with Rock decks.

Compare the spells above cmc 4 in Rock with other decks and clearly see the power differance between this and them. The rock player plays a Baloth for 4, Bant decks play NO for Prog, or why not Bant Survival which searches for Loyal Retainers, returning Ioona naming black.
These are all devastating plays compared to a "I gain 4 life and have a 4/4 guy", decks in the Rock department often suffer from gas-depletion or from lesser card quality due to poor choices in deckbuilding (decks tend to become too cute). That's what Death Cloud is, it's a Smallpox for 4 at the worst and it requires so many things to connect. That's why I cut it due to it being too mana craving opposed to other spells.

Of course, Death Cloud is a blow out when X = above 3... But in all seriousness, by the time we obtain 6 mana and more, we'll probably be dead in this fastpaced meta.

Other decks can get a Progenitus for 4 mana, at the cost of a creature, sure. We all know that doesn't stop Zoo from simply killing you. Often gaining 4 life does. Especially when you gain more life in the subsequent turns by your next creature drops. There are plenty of ways to kill a Progenitus in this deck so I assume you aren't making the point that other peoples' 4 drops are better than ours.

I'm glad you've done so much testing proving that the deck doesn't work when the OP and I have both piloted it to tournament wins. You act like 10 damage by turn 2 is normal in legacy and therefore any deck that can't race that loses. Zoo is a good deck, but it is not Flash and is no where near as good. Death Cloud is absolutely game ending, even with only 5 mana. If you cut death cloud you might as well cut the STE and yavimaya elder, along with Garruk and just add white and turn it into a normal rock deck. There's a thread for that though, and it isn't this one.

[Vacrix]

Veteran Explorer doesn't belong in any deck even remotely close to this style. Veteran Explorer chump blocks one threat and dies, giving the opponent a huge tempo boost. Sakura Tribe Elder does the same thing, a turn later, but gives you land advantage instead of them. Veteran explorer is absolutely terrible specifically because everyone runs 1, 2, and a few 3 drops. You accelerate them into their biggest spell by turn 2. STE accelerates you into turn 3 where you can drop: Damnation, Deeds for 1 (quite potent against zoo), Baloth, or Garruk + 2 drop. All of these save you from their turn 3-4 kill quite well. Add in Kitchen Finks and you stabilize very quickly.
You are forgetting just how good Cloud is... One might make the argument that giving the opponent fast lands will just provide the aggro player with incentive to hold some lands in hand. Then again, Cloud hits whatever is left in the hand, which often isn't much. If the aggro player is over extending with his lands to play more creatures, better for you who is about to play mass removal for mad mad CA. Essentially, you have better resources to take advantage of both players getting 2 lands. The WORST case scenario is the one you described. You neglected to mention the best one, which would be mad CA via Cabal Therapy tricks, like I described in my example. Whats a fast pair of Knight of the Reliquaries going to do if they are already in the yard? SDT tricks with fetches will make this play more easily possible, especially if you also add in Innocent Blood.

Sure everyone plays 1, 2, and 3 drops. Then again, you can usually play Deed for 3 if you get a fast Explorer. Whats the problem here?

[Phoenix Ignition]

You are forgetting just how good Cloud is... One might make the argument that giving the opponent fast lands will just provide the aggro player with incentive to hold some lands in hand. Then again, Cloud hits whatever is left in the hand, which often isn't much. If the aggro player is over extending with his lands to play more creatures, better for you who is about to play mass removal for mad mad CA. Essentially, you have better resources to take advantage of both players getting 2 lands. The WORST case scenario is the one you described. You neglected to mention the best one, which would be mad CA via Cabal Therapy tricks, like I described in my example. Whats a fast pair of Knight of the Reliquaries going to do if they are already in the yard? SDT tricks with fetches will make this play more easily possible, especially if you also add in Innocent Blood.

Sure everyone plays 1, 2, and 3 drops. Then again, you can usually play Deed for 3 if you get a fast Explorer. Whats the problem here?

The main problem is that Zoo doesn't really care about their creatures after a certain point. They play mostly 2/3 and 3/3's early, and by the time the opponent can start dropping large creatures (at least 3 power 4 toughness) then all they have left is path or their 2-of Knights. Zoo doesn't care though, if the opponent starts getting more big creatures than you have paths they are generally near death and burns can finish them.

There is an argument to be made though that this encourages the opponent to overextend into a Deathcloud or Damnation, but against black/green decks people generally know Deeds can come in play at any time. I have a feeling that if you accelerate their early game with extra lands they will just play what they need to to get you in burn range and finish you off with burn. People almost always save 1 creature back unless necessary when they see the threat of Deeds, so even if you win game one by a giant cloud/damnation, they won't play into it in the next games.

I guess it could deserve more testing, but Deathcloud's real strength is depriving the entire board for the opponent and leaving you with a few lands up. If you leave a faster deck with lands in play they can pretty easily finish the job with burn or all their 1 drops.

[Vacrix]

I thought about that actually. If they fetch out 2 basics, thats 2 fewer lands they have to work with. The Unearth version enables the deck to recover VERY quickly. Especially against a deck like Zoo that runs very few basics (often 2 or 3 in the versions I've played against). Your opponent can't fetch out basics if he doesn't have any. Zoo often gets screwed if it loses all its lands. Of course, if you are playing Deed, then you have bigger issues as you don't get rid of the lands and then there Burn spells can actually connect.

The problem with the Cloud is that it burns you for some damage, putting you within lethal burn range from Zoo. I honestly can't see this as being a strong matchup unless you are playing against some version that runs fewer burn spells, which would probably be bad anyway so the chances of seeing it later in a tournament would be low. This is why I opt for MD Innocent Blood. Shutting down fast Nacatl really slows them down, especially if they have to waste burn on your blockers like VE. Cabal Therapy can take multiple burn spells and you can do some disgusting things with it and Eternal Witness against control.

If your opponent overextends hoping to burn you out, that isn't always the best plan. The deck has multiple ways in the MD to gain life to offset the burn a little. If the opponent doesn't overextend.. awesome, you just nuked his hand instead of his board, provided you get a big enough Cloud. Conveniently, VE allows you to accelerate into a larger Cloud. The lands will just offset because you found 2 (which adds to X) and the opponent finds 2 so he loses 2 fewer lands than he might have, but he loses 2 extra creatures and 2 extra cards from his hand. In this case, an opponent relies completely upon his burn and whatever lands he has left. Turning Zoo into Burn isn't a bad plan if you can recover more quickly and stablize your lifetotal with something. Maybe thats what the deck needs, a post-Cloud way to stablize its lifetotal.

[thefreakaccident]

lands//21
6 Forest
5 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
1 overgrown tomb
1 Volrath's Stronghold

creatures//16
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
4 veteran explorer
2 abyssal persecutor

spells//23
4 cabal therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Death Cloud
4 small pox
2or3 Garruk Wildspeaker
2or3 Unearth

At least, that's how i would run the deck... later in the game the therapys and the poxes enable the veterans... later, they get rid of persecutor... Small pox becomes really good post death cloud, and unearth/garruk both make cloud relatively onesided... However, you could run reanimate in the unearth spot (same mana, gets prosecutor, possibly something juicy from the opponent).

[Phoenix Ignition]

4-1 tonight. Beat Merfolk, Zoo, Ichorid, and Alluren while losing to New Horizons (to self mana screw, he didn't have to do any work at all both games I had to mulligan). Split in the top 4.

Gotta get ready for the long drive to OH, but quick some notes: Garruk is bad. Yavimaya Elder was less impressive and is probably getting cut. Maindeck Shriekmaw won me many games (in the slots that I already said to take out a few posts above). Hymn to Tourach as a sideboard was absolutely brutal against Merfolk and Alluren. Probably putting a couple hymns main. Lastly, Grave Titan won me 3 games, one of which no other creature in that slot would have (against zoo, he had the double burn for my dude as we were in top deck mode, but I still got 2 zombies).

Merfolk: Lost game 1 to 5 lord draw with no removal to flying. Game 2 won on the back of Inquisition (much better than thoughtseize in every game other than alluren) and hymn. After destroying his hand, shriekmaw took out his lord and baloth + finks stabilize into them + goyf beats. Mind Harness is little more than an annoyance.

New horizons: Mull a 0 lander to 6, keep with forest, swamp. I draw no other lands and have a hand full of high cost answers. Game 2 Mull 2 zero landers down to 5, and kill some of his creatures with shriekmaws (one of which gets forced). Eventually he lands his super secret tech of CB/top sideboard and my 4 innocent blood + 2 relic sideboard strangely isn't good anymore. I didn't board in k grips but honestly going down 2 cards opening hand against this deck is devastating.

Zoo: I lose one game but the other 2 inquisition + life gain creatures win for me. Topdeck mode game 3 Grave Titan seals the deal.

Other matches were less interesting and I gotta go. Like I said -2 garruk -2 yavimaya elder +2 hymn +2 dunno yet main (maybe 1 shriekmaw and 1 more of a 2-of)

[Vacrix]

Interesting results. Was Cloud a non-factor then? It will be much harder to accelerate into it without Elder or Garruk no? In that sense, it would be a less Cloud focused build.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Interesting results. Was Cloud a non-factor then? It will be much harder to accelerate into it without Elder or Garruk no? In that sense, it would be a less Cloud focused build.

The point of the deck isn't to cloud as fast as possible. In fact I usually wait until the late game to drop a cloud when it turns their board and hand into zero cards. Yavimaya doesn't accelerate he just allows you to drop lands consistently. Garruk is a 4 drop who is only actually good when you have a higher cost in hand, which is rare. Neither of them are necessary or even really that helpful when I wanted them to be.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I tried so hard to get Deathcloud to work a long time ago but I took the Life From the Loam approach. This is interesting but I can tell you in the long run Aggro Loam is just better. Running Devastating Dreams is very close to what Deathcloud does except I find that Loam recovers better. If you want to play a deck that blows up the board you really need Mox Diamonds. That was one of the key cards to making the LD plan so effective. I guess you could play Crucible of Worlds as well but ... no point in not playing Lands! then. I would not play a deck like this without Loam and Moxen, its makes it so much more effective.

Also, Shriekmaw + Volrath's Stronghold is just absolutely ridiculous. I really liked Garruk in my builds since I played 3 colors and BBB was sometimes annoying, plus its nice to start making elephants after the opponent has nothing. I would strongly consider adding white for Swords and Vindicate since Vindicate is just better than Pulse. Doran is also good but he makes the Finks suck :(

I would not run Veteran Explorer ... ever. It helps the opponent as well, maybe if you were playing more board control as opposed to land destruction it would be good but, as it is he isn't even worth including.

If you need annother cheap removal spell strongly consider playing Snuff Out. Its free and awesome! Putrefy is also good since it isn't clunky like Pulse and can be played at instant speed.

Whatever you do play Loam and Mox Diamond, thats what makes this shit so consistent. And if the opponent brings in grave hate .... so what. Turns off 3 cards, suck creatures and Deathclouds.

[Phoenix Ignition]

That is quite possibly the most off topic post I have ever seen.

[C Rayz Walz]

I just want to say that I'm with Vacrix in this discussion, although I don't frown upon you guys for taking a different route, not at all.
Veteran Explorers are good in a deck that is tailored to maximize his ability. I think that many people stares at the fact that both players may search for lands, but if we actually see past this and get a grip of things, we're running targeted discard and a lot of board control elements. We can pretty much tailor our opponents board and hand in whatever way we want.

I won't argue with either one in this thread because I do actually believe that everyone is right. Each different path has it's pros and cons and both routes are good, but if they're competitive good... that's another question.

If I would've run something like this deck:


1 Anger
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Eternal Witness
2 False Prophet
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Genesis
3 Greater Gargadon
1 Karmic Guide
1 Lone Missionary
1 Mirror Entity
4 Mul Daya Channelers
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reveillark
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Stingscourger
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Wall of Blossoms
3 Primal Command
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Aether Vial

6 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Plateau
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ruination
3 Null Rod

With some modifications, maybe black instead of red...
Not really sure yet. But to be able to combo with the deck aswell as having board control is nice. Wonder if people finds the combo here...

Peace out.

I hope you don't take this personally, and I've appreciated your contributions to the discussion thus far, but this thread is about B/G Death Cloud (comments about splashing colors are welcome, although with a BBB cost it seems ill-advised). Please limit the posting of deck lists to those that try to make use of Death Cloud. This also goes out to the earlier poster who said "aggro loam is better." The whole point of this thread is that I think Death Cloud is a powerful card in the format and worth building a deck around. If you think Aggro Loam does the same thing better, that's fine but irrelevant to the discussion. Death Cloud also hits the hand which is huge. Against many decks, Death Cloud reduces opponent's hand, lands, and board to zero.

Thanks for your understanding.

I'll do some more testing and try out the Inquisitions and maybe some other stuff that Phoenix mentioned. Keep the comments coming.

[Gurzigost]

I think Mox is bad idea for this deck, as the board will be wiped by deed.

I've lost track of what the discussion was currently on, or even what your list looks like right now, but I agree that this deck could be very great, and have lots of MU's...I have some cards that we could look at:

Troll Ascetic- Untargetable beater. Eats up a few decks when resolved, Unearth target (not sure if you decided on using it or not). I didn't know if you needed any more beaters, but just trying to add to the conversation here.

Gigapede- Recurs, Untargetable, good synergy with deeds.

Vindicate- Better than pulse (questionable, depends on matchup), but not worth adding another color for it.

Hymn- I think maindecking these would help in G1 against control/combo...you mentioned something about it, but wasn't sure how serious you were about it.

Something is still needed against T1 Goblin Lackey, and my strongest thoughts that I could think of thus far were Darkblast (not that great) and Tinderwall (because of the fact that you could sack it to speed into a 6cc creature if it wasn't needed.) But tinderwall only has 3 toughness, and doesn't kill the lackey so....

Let me know what problems the deck was seeing in this most recent tourney, I haven't had a chance to play it yet but I think I will be building this deck. Goblins is pretty common in most metas, so I think that is going to be the difference between 5-1 and 5-0, so I would like to come up with something.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Took my version of the deck to Columbus. Went 6-2-1 only getting knocked out of contention in the final round. The tie would have been a win if not for the opponents slow play with senseis top decisions. Will write a full report when I get home probably Tuesday. There was another deathcloud green/black there who went 6-2-1 who I sat by pretty much all day. Different build though, but not by a lot.

[Vacrix]

Could you post your list and maybe right a brief report? I'd love to read it.

[mercc]

Could you post your list and maybe right a brief report? I'd love to read it.

+1

[Phoenix Ignition]

+1

Be happy to but I didn't bring my computer and writing a tourny report on my phone sounds awful. Only 5 hours of driving until I'm back though! Should get it up tonight or tomorrow.

Spoiler: I meta called so well since this deck just tears zoo apart, but didn't play against a single one all day.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I might as well put the tourney report here as most of the ones in the actual section are day 2ers and I sadly lost in the 9th round to miss day 2.

Quick start off: We leave at 8:00am on Friday and hit the worst traffic believable in Chicago. Like, unreal 45 minutes per 10 miles for 50 miles type of unreal. 15.5 hours after we start out we arrive in Columbus and are tired as hell. A bit of testing and last minute deck building before heading to sleep and 4 hours of sleep later I wake up good to go grind out a full 9 rounds since I haven't played enough recently to get into bye range. That's okay though, I really don't mind the practice before getting up to the higher tables.

The deck I'm piloting is based off of the Death Cloud deck in this thread (I can't stand the word "bleen") with at least a few changes to try to increase my meta odds.

1297 or so people come, which is a bit disappointing to everyone there, but I miss listening to the rest of the players meeting trying to sleeve my deck up with fresh bought tight as hell black kmc matt sleeves (I don't recommend them).

Rounds go up and this is my list + sideboard:

4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Forest
5 Swamp
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
2 Obstinate Baloth
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Shriekmaw

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Death Cloud
2 Damnation
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach

SB:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Innocent Blood
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pernicious Deed

Match 1: Merfolk

Game 1: He starts out the game with island + vial so it's a bit obvious what he's playing. I think everything he had was foil, so I made sure to not let myself go into auto pilot, assuming that he probably was good. He got one of those quick curving out lord draws with no protection, and is playing maindeck jitte, so I drop a deeds and watch my life go down before I wipe his board and stabilize at around 6 life. I play directly into the stifle if he has it, but I suspect he is going hyper aggressive build and I'm right. Shriekmaw and Kitchen Finks hold down the fort and take out his life.

Game 2: This goes a little more in my favor as I get out finks + obstinate baloth to keep my life in the high teens. A deeds 4 for 1's him and I later find out he boarded in Stifles when he gets Shriekmaw's CitP. I stabilize at 2 with my life gain creatures. Luckily he didn't draw it for the deed or I would have lost to an accumulating power of fish.

2-0 games
1-0 match.

Match 2: NO countertop bant
Game 1: I win the roll and play land top. He gets trop + hierarch which meets my shriekmaw. He then plays a Dryad Arbor for his second land drop while I play a volrath's stronghold. Recurring Shriekmaw keep him off of any sort of mana.

Game 2: Again he keeps a low land hand but gets turn 1 top turn 2 counterbalance. It's okay though because Shriekmaw costs 5 and kills his mana hierarch. Then deeds wipe his board and he doesn't draw into enough lands to do anything to stop my other Shriekmaw which takes out a goyf.

4-0 games
2-0 match.

Match 3: Tempo Thresh (oh hi, I play 11 basics)
Quick aside I cannot stand when someone loses and proceeds to say how much bad luck they get (okay this is fine but not this:) and then goes on to say how they suck at life and should quit magic and are no good at anything. I'll go along with you saying you have mana screw or whatever, it happens, but I'm not going to babysit you at the end of a match when you're QQing about getting a loss. That's what this opponent did.

Game 1: He plays with my manabase a bit and Stifles things like Sakura-Tribe elder while watching his goyfs get Shriekmawed. Eventually I hit 6 lands and drop a Grave Titan on him. Yeah, against the deck that tries to destroy my manabase. The zombies falling out of his body get the win after he gets double bolted (I like his picture).

Game 2: He draws like Tempo Thresh should and is on the play. I draw my non basics and fetches. He actually interrupts my mana and has the Submerge for my attempts to stop his tiny creatures.

Game 3: Relic + finks + baloth beats are my notes. I think he mulliganned twice here. Then he goes on to complain like I explained above. Annoying opponent.

6-1 games
3-0 match.

Match 4: Weird Jace + countertop + goyf + trinket mage toolbox
Game 1: Turn 1 top, turn 2 counterbalance. I was on the play and drop turn 3 Deeds which he blinds a clique for. I don't see much removal and can only stall a bit with shriekmaws before he kills me.

Game 2: A lot of back and forth with threat and answer lead to top deck wars. Deeds makes sure CB/Top doesn't ruin me and my top digs for the Shriekmaw to answer his goyf and terror in for the last 6 points of damage. Long game.

Game 3: His deck seems to have 8 sword/paths after sideboard (possibly before too) so threats don't end up sticking for very long. I slowly eat away his life but he keeps getting answers. I bait a few times to remove his FoWs and drop an angry Grave Titan. He has the path but the zombies remain. Time is called and I can only get him to 3 but the shriekmaw I draw at the end definitely would have beaten him even if he could have found the answer. Stupid draws, pretty much always = loss at GPs.

7-2-1 games
3-0-1 match.

Match 5: UWT Jacob Shnieders

Game 1: He plays plains -> Aether vial so I know exactly what he is playing. I play inquisition and then lay down two deeds on the field when he doesn't have any counters. Good thing about being familiar with a deck, you know they don't play 3 drops that you care about. I do however draw into a large amount of non basics and he can keep his tempo up even through the deeds on the field. I draw into double grave titan, double Damnation with only 3 basics I have seen the whole game. Strange how this deck decides to not get basics at the wrong time. Anyway he eventually builds card advantage and ends the game after about 3 solid turns of swinging with like 10 tiny dudes and eventually a jitte. I was hoping to top deck my last deed and blow out his board.

He pulls out sideboard notes and I know he's got them straight from pi4. This is extremely helpful because I know how little respect for rock pi4 has. I know he won't have much to board in (presumably spell pierce but you can go read that thread if you really care -- I don't). We chat about the state of that thread and matchups of the day.

Game 2: 4th deed from the board helps me hit them early. I keep his field in check and we go back and forth a bit until he runs out of card advantage and double kitchen finks beat him to death.

Game 3: Deeds along with a giant goyf and a shriekmaw seal the game after my k grip ruins his Jitte plan. I love running bigger creatures who don't depend on each other or equipment to be able to turn sideways. I also sided in Innocent Bloods, which helped me at some point my notes say. Fun opponent though.

This is still my most fun matchup to play against with any deck I'm piloting. I just love beating it.

9-3-1 games
4-0-1 match.

Match 6: NO countertop bant
Game 1: Turn 4 Natural Order with a FoW for my Death Cloud on 1. I see a weakness maindeck with my Inquisitions now, but I really expected more zoo + merfolk + goblins. They were freaking everywhere, I just didn't run into them at all.

Game 2: Back and forth game but I k grip a top and Damnation 2 hierarchs and a goyf. He has low lands and shriekmaw beats him to death after he lays a goyf down.

Game 3: Innocent blood his early dudes and he gets a Progenitus out. I K grip his top and then Damnation, which he can't blind reveal for CB. Goyf and Shriekmaw come down for the win.

11-4-1 games
5-0-1 match.

Match 7: Burn

Game 1: He plays burn, I play try-to-kill-you-faster and maelstrom pulse my finks at some point to try to not die. I get him to 2 and he gets me to 1 with no cards left in hand. He pulls the burn and I lose.

Game 2: He pithing needles my top, I drop goyf and deeds the needle to make him huge. Finks joins the party while my life goes down. I'm at 7 and he has 1 card in hand. I have lethal on the board. He rips the Fireblast to accompany his bolt. Sick life sir. I'm not really upset, more amused at how hard I should beat that deck with 4x finks 2x obstinate baloth main. Oh well, burn still is a bad deck that can get God hands and win.

11-6-1 games
5-1-1 match.

Match 8: NO countertop bant (Grimes or something similar on here, I wish I wrote down his last name but everyone from the New York area apparently should know him as Grimey. Very fun opponent)

We talk about Minnesota's 10,000 Lakes festival. I'm happy our State isn't exclusively known for Fargo and woodchipping people. Awesome festival by the way. If you're reading this report then what I mentioned was this radio station. Stream it, it's quite incredible (I'm a sustaining member) http://minnesota.publicradio.org/radio/services/the_current/

Game 1: He only gets a counterbalance online and I hymn his natural order before he can use it. I think Shriekmaws (possibly with Stronghold) take out his threats and eventually a Grave titan lands on the table with an army of zombies assembling.

Game 2: He gets a mana flood and not much in terms of things to do with it. I think we both K grip each others tops, but my witness grabs it back. Kitchen Finks joins in the slow attack and his life eventually drops to the red zone. I drop a witness for I think a Shriekmaw so that he'll die next turn without multiple answers. He finally hits a green creature and Natural Orders, but I only need 1 creature to connect to win.

13-6-1 games
6-1-1 matches.

Round 9: My opponent is my neighbor from the last round, but I'm quite burned out from the matches and don't remember what he was playing. We talk about our various experiences living in China though, which was fun.

He was playing some weird Counter-top (Grand total of 5 Counterbalance decks today, and EVERY deck played Force of Will) that used Elspeth, Jace, Knight of the Reliquary, maindeck Jittes, other random stuff.

Game 1: I don't have notes for this match but it ends when he gets two planeswalkers and my Pernicious Deeds were printed before there was a need to blow up planeswalkers. I am still pretty upset at Wizards for not printing decent answers to these high powered Planeswalkers, when relatively every old card can't deal with them. I could have deathclouded the board but Elspeth was too much.

Game 2: He assembles countertop and I k grip the counterbalance after he fetches. Oh look, a Rhox War Monk. Thats 2 times a blind flip for 3 has ruined my game. He ends up Jacing me to death. Not much to note here except I'm pretty sure he was trying to put me on tilt by asking me literally over 5 times on his turn how many cards I have in hand, as well as a few times during each turn after that. I didn't really mind but damn was it getting annoying.

13-8-1 games
6-2-1 matches.

I miss day 2, but I realize my enjoyment in this game is winning with weird decks no one would think are good. I could have just taken merfolk like I've been playing off and on since whenever I first posted in that thread (and an awesome day of matchups I would have had for it!) but that is too boring for me.

Changes:
I'm not sure right now what specifically to do to fix the deck. Shriekmaw was MVP. From my original list I am now doing -2 Grave titan -2 Obstinate Baloth +3 Living Wish (one of each of those creatures is definitely in the board), +1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Finks, +1 Witness. Obby was taken out against every CB/top list I played, as a 4/4 is pretty terrible against control. Grave Titan was taken out against UWT, Tempo Thresh, and Burn. I like having him a lot because he's a trump card, but with 3 living wish I think it will work well. The only thing this actually hurts is it makes the deck a bit softer to CB/Top, but that's not a big deal because we still have a ton of other casting costs they can't hit.

Props:
Minneapolis players in general. I think 90% of the people at my local shop trekked out to Columbus.
Red Roof Inn. That place was freaking nice for how cheap it was.
Tip Top bar. Only place in Ohio that wasn't closed at night, with a bartender who had to work his ass off for all the magic players there, and got everything right.

Slops:
Bullshit judge DQs
Columbus (gravel roads in the downtown area?? Really???)
Ohio in general (shuts down at like 10:00)
Chicago traffic
Sooooo many draws. Heavy control with countertop may be an okay deck, but I heard more than one report of people dropping because they would go something like 1-0-3.


Anyone wanting sideboard notes on the matches can ask, I didn't bring any sheet with me and didn't write down what I did, but I'll be able to come up with the same plan again if you ask.

[C Rayz Walz]

Thanks for the report, Phoenix. It looked like Shriekmaw was huge for you, so I tried it out, and I'm really liking them in the deck. Also, I agree with you the Baloth is really only strong vs Zoo, above average vs Gobs and Folk, and very average or below average vs most other decks. So I cut him. However, I don't really like Living Wish and never have--I think it's too slow and most of the time you're giving up a turn to get 1 card (although having more access to Stronghold is a plus). The deck gets its strength from using green and black card advantage, and Living Wish does not fit that mold. On that point, I tried out Hymns and they've been working well for me. Vs Gobs it's enough to slow them down a bit, and against control it helps you keep up in the card advantage race.

I'm surprised to see that you cut Grave Titan after it seemed you had some success with it. I've done some more testing, and I decided I like it more than Garruk. Garruk is simply too weak in too many situations, and his full power is only realized with Death Cloud. On the other hand, Titan wins games alone. Cases in point, in some recent testing, after I had survived the initial onslaught against Goblins with a Deed, Titan sealed the deal. Against Landstill, through Hymns and Thoughtseizes and other must-counters, I was able to resolve a Titan after Deeding away a Humility. Even with Elspeth on the board and ultimate ability activated, Landstill had no way to keep up with Titan. A Decree would likely not have even saved Landstill.

I'm still tinkering around with the sideboard. Therapies went in to help vs combo and control. I wasn't satisfied with Bob. He was good, but didn't do enough vs combo. Plagues help a lot vs Goblins and less so vs Folk. However they could also be used against combo (Warrens) and control (Elspeth, Decree).

Here is the current decklist I'm working with:


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
6 [B] Forest (1)
5 [TE] Swamp (4)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 [UD] Yavimaya Elder
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
2 [M11] Grave Titan

// Spells
3 [DS] Death Cloud
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague


Let me know what you think.

[imanujakku]

why no tombstalker? grave titan is cool but he is always six mana and there are scenarios where you have deathclouded several times and will never have 6 mana.

you could also go the loam/pox route and run a couple of retrace spells like raven's crime and siphon life.

i do like finks is obviously but nighthawk seems like it might have a place here too.

some other minor stuff to try - crime and punishment and reanimate.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Let me know what you think.

I'm glad we're coming to the same conclusions, means that we might be right (or both wrong but I like the both right better). Okay so I understand the concern with the Living Wish, and I really do like Grave Titan. My only problem with him is against the really quick matches where you're dead before you land him. A few times across the day I drew him early and wished he could be anything else at all (like against burn). He was undoubtedly the best creature in that slot, but the problem is you really don't want him that early. I'm not taking him out persay, I'm replacing him with Living Wish (just for testing, but I really like the idea). LW is definitely mana disadvantage with the chance of being counterbalanced, but it provides incredible card advantage. I've been testing with just 3 Living Wish and 6 targets for it (Grave Titan, Eternal Witness, Karakas, Obstinate Baloth, Wickerbough Elder, and Plague Spitter) and it has been everything I was hoping for. Against zoo you don't mind giving up the two mana for a definite O-baloth. Plague Spitter takes that E-plague slot and with the Cabal Therapies I'm running goes nuts. Against the new Shelldrazi combo deck you just Living Wish for Karakas (also against reanimator or ichorid you can easily answer Iona instead of having 0 outs).

Living Wish is worse against Counterbalance decks, I will definitely concede that, but as my record shows, the deck does very well against them already. We play so many 3 drops that kill it, as well as the shriekmaw to buy us time to find the 3 drops and Volrath's Stronghold to recur the costs they don't stop. Living Wish is infinitely better against the combo type decks, and it provides a lot of toolbox answers for the problematic matches. Late game against any deck Living wish is better because you will definitely get more lands than you have use for.

As for Thoughtseize it is probably going in over Inquisition in my list now, but for the amount of zoo I was supposed to run into at the GP, I still think it was the right choice there.

Lastly I still don't like Yavimaya Elder, as he is too slow against most decks and the card advantage he provides is only really relevant against control decks, but drawing him against a control deck doesn't provide a threat they care about, which is what I'm trying to increase. Once Jace starts fate sealing you need 2 bombs against them in a row, so the higher the number of threats the better you will do.

About your Sideboard I would say 4 E plague isn't fast enough to matter against Goblins. Unless you're scared of Bitterblossom I wouldn't use them, because the scariest thing from goblins is a turn 1 lackey. Generally Death Cloud and Deeds is enough to try to keep up against them late game. Innocent blood was MVP against them, and it's also ridiculously good against New Horizons. I would run that instead. What are the 4 Therapys for? If it's combo there are better things (thorn of amethyst), and against control I don't know how many extra discard you would add since you need to keep up your threat count. Obstinate Baloth is sick against zoo and tribal so I would probably add in 2 sideboard in your build.

[C Rayz Walz]

I've been testing with just 3 Living Wish and 6 targets for it (Grave Titan, Eternal Witness, Karakas, Obstinate Baloth, Wickerbough Elder, and Plague Spitter) and it has been everything I was hoping for.

Have you considered Acidic Slime instead of Wickerbough? I guess you give up some power but being able to hit lands (Academy Ruins?) and the death touch are positives. Just something to consider. I haven't really tried Wickerbough.


As for Thoughtseize it is probably going in over Inquisition in my list now, but for the amount of zoo I was supposed to run into at the GP, I still think it was the right choice there.

I see your point. The way I see it, I just run Thoughtseize and concede the 2 life (which usually isn't too much of a problem) to avoid the guesswork and gain the ability to hit Humility, Planeswalkers, Natural Order, etc.


Lastly I still don't like Yavimaya Elder, as he is too slow against most decks and the card advantage he provides is only really relevant against control decks, but drawing him against a control deck doesn't provide a threat they care about, which is what I'm trying to increase.

Again I see what you're saying, but personally I've been happy with him. He really makes the land drops more consistent and helps get toward the requisite amount for Cloud or Titan. Maybe it's personal preference, maybe it's a bit of a pet thing, but I'm currently happy with him. Nonetheless, if I decide something fits better than him, I'll certainly drop the pet card in favor of making the deck more competitive.


About your Sideboard I would say 4 E plague isn't fast enough to matter against Goblins. Unless you're scared of Bitterblossom I wouldn't use them, because the scariest thing from goblins is a turn 1 lackey. Generally Death Cloud and Deeds is enough to try to keep up against them late game. Innocent blood was MVP against them, and it's also ridiculously good against New Horizons. I would run that instead. What are the 4 Therapys for? If it's combo there are better things (thorn of amethyst), and against control I don't know how many extra discard you would add since you need to keep up your threat count. Obstinate Baloth is sick against zoo and tribal so I would probably add in 2 sideboard in your build.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I should note that I rushed a bit to post the maindeck without really considering what to do with the sideboard after the changes (adding Shriekmaw, Titans, Hymns, dropping Baloths, Unearths). My board will likely change in the near future. Do you really find Plague Spitter to be an answer vs Gobs? He's just as quick as a E. Plague but hits your guys too. With Therapies I can see how he's a decent threat to Goblins, but I'm not sold on Therapies yet (I like the immediate card advantage of Hymn). Without them, i.e., without an effective way to kill him on your turn and deal 2 damage to everything, he seems kind of weak. The thing I like about E. Plague is that 1 slows them down and 2 ends the game (although this is admittedly slow). Plague Spitter doesn't appear much better against Goblins than something like Infest. Sometimes I feel that by going to a Wish sideboard, we settle for cards that are less effective than their regular sideboard counterparts. If I ran Living Wish, I feel like I'd search for Stronghold 90% of the time (b/c I need a land or b/c it's just too powerful in this deck to pass up). Not a bad thing, but it goes against the idea of using Wish as a universal answer. Side note: have you thought about adding a GY-hate to the Wish board? Faerie Macabre and Withered Wretch come to mind.

Concluding, I'm going to do some work with the board, but at the moment I'm fairly satisfied with the main deck I've posted. I'll let you know if my mind changes. Let me know how your testing goes as well.

I'd also like to echo a point you made earlier:

I miss day 2, but I realize my enjoyment in this game is winning with weird decks no one would think are good. I could have just taken merfolk like I've been playing off and on since whenever I first posted in that thread (and an awesome day of matchups I would have had for it!) but that is too boring for me.
I feel the same way and all of my Legacy decks reflect that. The thing I like about the format is that it's open to a lot of exploration, and I think this deck in particular can be made into a strong contender. If people don't respect it and don't account for it, all the better for us.

[Gurzigost]

I would first like to ask why you have overgrown tomb in there. As good as this deck is when I look at it, that card sitting in there just confuses the crap out of me. It would be better off a basic land, for many reasons. You don't need that guy in there.

How do you feel about Krosan Tusker? Its a bit slow, but shuffles, draws, and gets a land. Its also not a dead card if you see it later in the game, kind of like shriekmaw.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I would first like to ask why you have overgrown tomb in there. As good as this deck is when I look at it, that card sitting in there just confuses the crap out of me. It would be better off a basic land, for many reasons. You don't need that guy in there.

How do you feel about Krosan Tusker? Its a bit slow, but shuffles, draws, and gets a land. Its also not a dead card if you see it later in the game, kind of like shriekmaw.

There are too many double costs of both green and black (triple black for DC) to only use 4 dual lands. Overgrown Tomb is the next best thing that can be used, except maybe if they make a green/black filter land. You can fetch this though when you don't need that extra mana to be sure to not draw it.

Krosan Tusker isn't good almost ever. Paying 3 for his effect is not worth it (i'd rather run Yavimaya Elder).

[Hawdes]

I would first like to ask why you have overgrown tomb in there. As good as this deck is when I look at it, that card sitting in there just confuses the crap out of me. It would be better off a basic land, for many reasons. You don't need that guy in there.

How do you feel about Krosan Tusker? Its a bit slow, but shuffles, draws, and gets a land. Its also not a dead card if you see it later in the game, kind of like shriekmaw.

Overgrown tomb acts like Bayou 5-8, that's kind of clear imo, and it wouldn't be better off as a basic because sometimes you just need the added possability of getting both black and green. That is something a basic land doesn't give you. But that's just my five cents.

I have to admit that Death Cloud is great... Sorry for my scepticism before, Pheonix Ignition seem to run a pretty good list. At first glance it seemed slow but since it evidently wreaks havoc (which I like), I will take a DC list for a spin and give it a try.

[C Rayz Walz]

I would first like to ask why you have overgrown tomb in there. As good as this deck is when I look at it, that card sitting in there just confuses the crap out of me. It would be better off a basic land, for many reasons. You don't need that guy in there.

How do you feel about Krosan Tusker? Its a bit slow, but shuffles, draws, and gets a land. Its also not a dead card if you see it later in the game, kind of like shriekmaw.

Overgrown Tomb is really just like a 5th Bayou. When I'm not playing a deck running Wasteland, I can fetch for it as needed. I've never had a problem with the 2 damage. I suppose from a pure numbers standpoint though it could be a basic. But until it gives me problems I'll leave it in there.

I like the idea of Krosan Tusker. He would most likely be a 2-of in the Yavimaya Elder slot. No doubt he fits the green/black card advantage mold. The question is basically whether he's better than Elder. My hunch is that against decks like Gobs, Zoo, Folk, and even Goyf decks, where an early blocker can keep you in the game, Elder will be superior. Against slower decks and control decks, Tusker could be better. With a Stronghold, Tusker is a cheaper "every turn" land and draw, although Elder gets you 2 lands every time, which is helpful earlier. But Tusker is also a big nasty threat late game, especially with the addition of Shriekmaws to keep the board clear. Tusker certainly deserves some testing and I will let you know what I find.

On an unrelated note, I am liking Hymns in the deck. Seems to really improve the early game. This deck really shines when it can drag other decks into top deck mode. With all the 2 for 1s and board sweepers, few decks can keep up. Hymn helps with that.

[C Rayz Walz]

why no tombstalker? grave titan is cool but he is always six mana and there are scenarios where you have deathclouded several times and will never have 6 mana.

Never really been a fan of Tombstalker with Goyf and he works against Stronghold stuff with Elder, Maw, etc. The deck gets 6 mana relatively easily, and I would play Titan before Clouding. Also, if you have the mana, you only need to Cloud once. Basically, you try not to miss land drops, and then when they've missed 3, you Cloud away their board and hand.


you could also go the loam/pox route and run a couple of retrace spells like raven's crime and siphon life.

I don't think those cards are very powerful and I don't see what I'd take out to make room for them.


i do like finks is obviously but nighthawk seems like it might have a place here too.

I've mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I'm not a big fan of Nighthawk without Jitte. On his own, he's fairly easy to deal with and doesn't survive or work well with Deed or Cloud, and his power level just isn't high enough to otherwise justify his inclusion (unlike Tarmogoyf, for example).


some other minor stuff to try - crime and punishment and reanimate.

I'd probably run Unearth over Reanimate, especially considering every creature in the deck now besides Titan could be Unearth'd. But I recently cut Unearths and I don't see them returning to the deck soon, although I love the card.

Crime and Punishment is a good card, but it's hard for me to justify without having access to the Crime, and I don't want to add a 3rd color. Punishment alone is pretty good, but I don't see room for it in the main deck with Deeds and Clouds. Plus, if I'm worried about creatures I'd probably add Damnation over it, and if I wanted more ways to kill artifacts and enchants, I'd run Maelstrom Pulse.

[C Rayz Walz]

Overgrown tomb acts like Bayou 5-8, that's kind of clear imo, and it wouldn't be better off as a basic because sometimes you just need the added possability of getting both black and green. That is something a basic land doesn't give you. But that's just my five cents.

I have to admit that Death Cloud is great... Sorry for my scepticism before, Pheonix Ignition seem to run a pretty good list. At first glance it seemed slow but since it evidently wreaks havoc (which I like), I will take a DC list for a spin and give it a try.

Awesome. Post your results/findings when you get the chance.

[C Rayz Walz]

An update on the testing and most current version:


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
6 [B] Forest (1)
5 [TE] Swamp (4)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 [UD] Yavimaya Elder
2 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
3 [DS] Death Cloud
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle


Shriekmaw has been doing very well for me as have Hymns. Pithing Needle goes onto the board to deal with planeswalkers and possible Vial, although Needle isn't a definite yet. Choke is a house vs Landstill and most other control decks.

Really the only thing I can't decide on is Grave Titan vs. Garruk. Garruk obviously has amazing synergy with Cloud but he is relatively weak on his own--practically useless vs Zoo and Tribal, but respectable against Aggro Control and Decent vs Control. Grave Titan destroys aggro (it can even swing a losing game into a win), but against control he's easy to deal with if he ever resolves. Titan has decent synergy with Cloud if played before, but often that seems like overkill. After Cloud, it will be nearly impossible to get the mana to play him. On paper, Garruk seems more consistent, but in testing, at least against aggro, Titan wins games on his own. One final note: if we run Garruk, I feel that we need to run 3 to have him consistently enough with Cloud. Otherwise you rarely draw them together, which goes against the biggest advantage of running Garruk in the first place. If we run Titan, I would only run 2 and bump Shriekmaws to 3.

As the above version stands, it is slightly weaker than previous versions against Zoo and Tribal but noticeably stronger against Landstill and the like game 1. The matchups against New Horizons and Counterbalance based decks are fairly strong and don't vary much between versions, although Shriekmaw is great vs both decks so 3 is better. Combo is the same story for both. The deck can hold its own against storm decks with the discard. With STE and YavElder, Bridges aren't a huge problem in Dredge and Deeds can handle the board (of course Crypts coming in helps the match a lot). I can elaborate on any of these matchups or others upon request.

Anyone have any thoughts on Garruk vs Titan or other card choices (especially from those who've tested the deck)?