GP Columbus: What does it reflect about the current state of Legacy?

[MMogg]

So . . . GP Columbus was probably more hotly anticipated than Madrid namely because of the fact that this is the first major tournament since Mystical Tutor had been banned and Grim Monolith unbanned.

What do you think of the results? What do the results tell us about the current state of Legacy and what adjustments, if any, do you think the meta will take as a result of this GP?

After GP Madrid, Reanimator and Saito ANT took off in popularity at the grassroots level. Will we see the same with black Merfolk, or was that just a deck designed specifically to prey upon GP Columbus' meta?

For me, the amount of Force of Wills in the top 8 is disturbing.

Event Coverage (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpcol10/welcome)
Top 8 decks (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpcol10/welcome#1)

[kicks_422]

It says that Legacy is a diverse format that's actually fun to play, tournament prizes and fame set aside.

[dschalter]

That the format has a diverse variety of blue decks. That being said, I don't want to overestimate the significance of the t8- the D2 data shows that non-island decks did pretty decently.

[4eak]

Speaking only with the knowledge of the top 8:


Outside of the unbannable (because players would shit-a-brick) and omnipresent cards like Brainstorm/Force, I thought the archetypes were fairly diverse.
Spell Pierce seemed popular and very useful in that Top 8.
I was pleased to see that (besides TES) not a single decklist was a standard build or (in the case of some) not even considered a real entity.
I'm glad to see a Storm in the top 8, despite what players have said about Mystical Tutor killing the deck (now it is bottlenecked by player skill).
I'm shocked to see no Zoo decks in the top 8.
Dedicated control appears stronger, which is clearly a result of a dramatic decrease in "easy-to-play, insanely good combo".
Combo decks are diversifying (again, as a result of Mystical tutor bannings and a lack of average player skill with Storm), but still quite strong.
Shared Fate got into the top 8, lulz.
There were almost as many Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as Tarmogoyfs in the top 8; I'm surprised how few Tarmogoyfs were in the Top 8.
Wild Mongrel and Aquamoeba were put into a green deck without Tarmogoyf.
Vengevine is sexy.
Survival has proven its ability to evolve yet again, and we may be seeing it played in Tempo-based decks (as opposed to its traditional pseudo-control role).





peace,
4eak

[Aggro_zombies]

I think this is yet another example of how terrible Legacy players are. The tournament was won by the worst deck in the format, the Survival list ran no Tarmogoyfs and had no way to refill its hand, and there weren't nearly enough lands in any of the decks.

Absolutely miserable tournament.

[Sleepless]

And Saito goes all the way this time around. No Zoo in top 8 is surprising as GP Madrid had 3 players with that deck, even with ANT and Reanimator around. Shocker to me at least.

[iostream]

I think this is yet another example of how terrible Legacy players are. The tournament was won by the worst deck in the format, the Survival list ran no Tarmogoyfs and had no way to refill its hand, and there weren't nearly enough lands in any of the decks.

Absolutely miserable tournament.

excuse me?

[dschalter]

And Saito goes all the way this time around. No Zoo in top 8 is surprising as GP Madrid had 3 players with that deck, even with ANT and Reanimator around. Shocker to me at least.

When control decks start running Firespout MD, Zoo has problems. That's what happened here (also, when control decks get played at all instead of certain other decks). ANT getting killed was nice, but Reanimator didn't really dominate it, even pre-ban (matchup was ~60-40)

[Hanni]

And Saito goes all the way this time around. No Zoo in top 8 is surprising as GP Madrid had 3 players with that deck, even with ANT and Reanimator around. Shocker to me at least.

Zoo was considered public enemy number 1, and everyone was playtesting/building around beating it. I'm not suprised in the slightest that it didn't Top 8.

What I am shocked about is Sneak Attack in the Top 8. For real?

However, I disagreed with many people about Merfolk being a bad deck before, and there's been alot of arguments about it for both sides. Merfolk PREYS on other blue decks, and when you look at that Top 8, it is obvious why Merfolk won it. I haven't seen any sort of metagame breakdown for the GP, and I wasn't there, but based on the feature matches I watched, I'd argue that blue based decks were the large majority of the field. Clearly, Merfolk WAS the deck to play. Put Merfolk in the hands of a player like Saito, and there's your Grand Prix Champion.

Also, expect to see alot of people picking up the U/G Madness deck. I remember when Roland Chang won Gencon with it several years ago, and it took months of people playing it before they finally realized the deck was bad. In this case, I actually think Survival + Vengine is pretty good, although I'd make alot of changes to the list Caleb was running.

[TheMightyQuinn]

excuse me?

Twas a jest, my friend.

[iostream]

pfffff that's what i figured /smooth-exit

[Aggro_zombies]

I was serious about that Survival list, though. Without some way to refill his hand, it seems pretty bad if he gets dragged into the mid-game. Vengevine is pretty hard to blow people out with when you've got no creatures to play.

[death]

Since WotC L<3VES Aggro decks, I believe banning of Firespout and Pernicious Deed is in order..

[dschalter]

Since WotC L<3VES Aggro decks, I believe banning of Firespout and Pernicious Deed is in order..

I mean, they dislike non-interactive decks, but the whole "WotC" is promoting aggro decks seems like an overly broad statement that confuses creatures in general with aggro decks. A good example of how the two are different is BSA- it's an incredibly power creature, but it also can hose aggro decks majorly. If you look at standard for the last few years (this is a legacy forum obviously, but it's still worth noting what happens in the constructed format WotC has the most control over), you'll see that control and midrange have both done very well, while aggro hasn't been that good.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

What do you think of the results? What do the results tell us about the current state of Legacy and what adjustments, if any, do you think the meta will take as a result of this GP?

After GP Madrid, Reanimator and Saito ANT took off in popularity at the grassroots level. Will we see the same with black Merfolk, or was that just a deck designed specifically to prey upon GP Columbus' meta?
That there will always be room in the Legacy metagame for a blue deck that beats other blue decks. Merfolk puts up a good clock with sufficient disruption. Even in a supposedly "hostile" meta, it can easily thrive if players underestimate its potential. Hence, from the predictions thread:

I think Merfolk will have a breakout performance. The last time everyone underwrote such a widely played tier 1 deck, it made back to back finals (one win) in SCG 5ks plus another 2 apiece in the top 8. Not that folk will sweep the top 8, but I really wouldn't be unsurprised if one made the 8 with a couple of top 16/32 finishes.
In a tournament environment, it's especially to Merfolk's credit that it can win quickly. Day 1, the lower tables were dominated by Zoo, the middle tables by Thopterbalance, Landstill and Lands! decks that continued to draw with one another and the top tables mostly by decks with quicker clocks by a handful of Goblins, one or two Zoo and lots of blue. I don't quite understand how anyone really thought Lands! would make the 8 and to be honest, Landstill was fortunate to get one spot even with the huge number of people playing it. I think when good players play fast decks, they place high. The slow stuff is doomed to mediocrity, no matter how good it is on turn 50.

[Plague Sliver]

I'm shocked to see no Zoo decks in the top 8.


Me too. The Emrakul/combo/quasi-combo decks must have preyed on them.

Madness list seems pretty sick.

[jazzykat]

Puzzled and amused. From just a brief glance at the Top 8, I find it hard to believe some of those decks will comprise a new Tier 1. Some of them look like absolute piles BUT that is based on my perceptions which are largely colored by what we do here on MTGSource. It is quite probable that others have identified methods to win that we are not discussing.

Honestly, I often am not to interested in metagame breakdowns but I am dying to see this one.

My gut reaction is that the survival deck and the sneak attack deck were so surprising to opponents that they got far on that. There is also the issue that many good players beat up on the more casual crowd that makes up even some of the higher tables at a Legacy event.

All that I know is that I am dying to see if the new decks actually have staying power or if they aren't a bunch of metagamed purpose built animals that won't last a month now that people know what they are before they sink back to whatever obscurity they came from.

PS: Can you realistically play survival without Squee? It's not like he doesn't pump mongrel, or Aquamoeba every turn if you don't have survival out.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In a tournament environment, it's especially to Merfolk's credit that it can win quickly. Day 1, the lower tables were dominated by Zoo, the middle tables by Thopterbalance, Landstill and Lands! decks that continued to draw with one another and the top tables mostly by decks with quicker clocks by a handful of Goblins, one or two Zoo and lots of blue. I don't quite understand how anyone really thought Lands! would make the 8 and to be honest, Landstill was fortunate to get one spot even with the huge number of people playing it. I think when good players play fast decks, they place high. The slow stuff is doomed to mediocrity, no matter how good it is on turn 50.

This is a meaningless statement. The top deck will be the deck that most reliably beats other decks. Fast or slow may contribute to that, but it's not an independent factor that can be extracted to determine viability. Slow decks can and do dominate formats when conditions are right.

[claudio.r]

I think some writers are felling pretty stupid now that merfolk took the prize !

[MMogg]

I think some writers are felling pretty stupid now that merfolk took the prize !

Merfolk packing 4 Standstill no less; you know, that horrible enchantment that has always been shit but only recently the Magic talking heads of the blogosphere decided to speak out against. I love the GP results and the irony dripping from them.

[claudio.r]

merfolk packing 4 standstill no less; you know, that horrible enchantment that has always been shit but only recently the magic talking heads of the blogosphere decided to speak out against. I love the gp results and the irony dripping from them.

qfw !

[piZZero]

What I read from this GP: You ban something, 1K people less show up. GG.

[MMogg]

What I read from this GP: You ban something, 1K people less show up. GG.

Considering the population density differences between Europe and America do you think that's fair? Are you saying that if they announce another European Legacy GP for next year they will have 1000 less people than this year's?

[Piceli89]

Also, it's August.

[Vacrix]

I think some writers are felling pretty stupid now that merfolk took the prize !
Doubtful. Merfolk is still bad. Surely, this proves that certain variants can be good though. If a U/b Merfolk variant can take first at such a huge tournament than thats evidence enough for me to suggest that its pretty good. I'm sure that anyone who was of the opinion that the conventional builds were bad will maintain that view. I know I will.

Also, Congrats to Bryant @ top 8!

[SilverGreen]

I think some writers are felling pretty stupid now that merfolk took the prize !

They'll never. And we may expect a huge influx of articles in the next few days explaing how Merfolk was the obvious best deck and how they always thought this way.

Bah. Magic theory sux. Metagaming, theorizing online and giving credit to internet smart alecks sux very hard. Play what you want to play, what you know to play, what you feel secure and confortable to play. Always. The rest is just internet authors', weekend players' and forum posters' (a.k.a., all of us) canting crap.

[bleuisforwhimps]

To me the biggest surprise was to see survival and sneak attack show up in the top 8. I think its a good thing to see 2 new decks emerge who seem fun to play and are DTB as far as I'm concerned because if you top 8 in a tournament with 1300 people then you're just that. Can't wait to put one of those together and play.

@Briant Cook: congratulations

[Deviruchi]

I think some writers are felling pretty stupid now that merfolk took the prize !

I think they will assume that this is just Saito's phenomen and different merfolk deck: B splash made the difference and so on... And they can also use the argument that Nelson threw away g2&3 vs Saito so Merfolks should be placed 5th-8th ;)

I predicted 75% of top8 so I'm not shocked how it looks like, maybe a little that SnT.dec has Sneak Attack in it. I would like to know the finish place of best Zoo/Goblins/Ichorid.dec and few other obviously. Hope someone will post day2 or top64 decklists. It would be sweet.

[piZZero]

Considering the population density differences between Europe and America do you think that's fair? Are you saying that if they announce another European Legacy GP for next year they will have 1000 less people than this year's?

At some point in between GP Madrid and the banning of Mystical Tutor I had the idea of flying overseas to play GP Columbus. That idea died at the moment I couldn't play my Mystical Tutors.

Obviously the banning doesn't justify 1000 less players, but I can asure you it has something to do with it. Magic is also about feelings and many people were hurt. People tend not to attend to events when they don't like the format or they are hurt due to some oficial policy. This is the exact same situation (in a lower scale) that is happening with Vintage. The format sucks and lot of people hates the current B/R list and Wizards policies, therefore, attendance at tournaments are falling a lot.

I expressed just an opinion, don't get me wrong!

Cheers,

piZZero - Jordi Amat

[Deady]

GP Columbus: What does it reflect about the current state of Legacy?:

That blue Countertop is far from dead. It proves that CB/Top isn't too slow for legacy, because it still plays the control role better than any other deck with CB and its strong counter suite. Maindeck Firespouts were there because of Zoo and Goblins. I'm sold. I'm definately going to pick up Countertop again.

[Anusien]

Let's be honest; more than Merfolk, Saito won this tournament.

He's, not close, the best Legacy player out there.

I wonder how much of the low attendance was because it was sandwiched around Gencon and Nationals and Amsterdam, where folks are preparing for a lot of other tournaments.

[kinda]

Let's be honest; more than Merfolk, Saito won this tournament.

He's, not close, the best Legacy player out there.

I wonder how much of the low attendance was because it was sandwiched around Gencon and Nationals and Amsterdam, where folks are preparing for a lot of other tournaments.

Yes but the best legacy player in the world deciding that merfolk was the best deck to play combined with him winning the tournament does help Merfolk's case a bit.

[Piceli89]

To be honest, I expected massive amounts of Zoo at the GP, so I'm not really sure that Folks was really the better choice in absolute..
The black splash for Perish and EPlague (read: Goblins) is a nice tech, but it's nothing new, Tacosnape had already pointed out the possibility to splash Merfolks for black to cover its weaknesses, and also Dreadstill lately tends to use an USea to pack Perish sb.

[sdematt]

I'm glad to see the Rock got in the Top 8, well done! :D

Also, if it's the same Bryant Cook as on here, congrats to him!

-Matt

[lep]

Merfolk in Legacy and Fish in Vintage have always been good metagame decisions. The decks are very mallable and can adapt quickly to a changing environment.

[kinda]

To be honest, I expected massive amounts of Zoo at the GP, so I'm not really sure that Folks was really the better choice in absolute..
The black splash for Perish and EPlague (read: Goblins) is a nice tech, but it's nothing new, Tacosnape had already pointed out the possibility to splash Merfolks for black to cover its weaknesses, and also Dreadstill lately tends to use an USea to pack Perish sb.

I'd be curious to know how much zoo there was...it's been public enemy #1 since the ban and everyone not playing zoo (ok and playing zoo) was trying to beat it, so I would assume people with other options would be wary of playing it (it's not flash...anti-zoo does beat zoo). Merfolk has a good matchup against the vast majority of the decks designed to beat zoo, which were undoubtedly represented in much higher numbers then zoo itself. He also had 8 sb slots dedicated to zoo and 6 to goblins so it wasn't as if he was dead in these matchups...just not highly favored like he was vs. the rest of the field. His record speaks for itself...but I don't think the merfolk hate is warranted.

[Smmenen]

I'm pretty sure Zoo was the most populous archetype at the tournament, partly because it had the greatest day 2 representation.

[obituary 95]

I think that the build up for the tournament is really important , basically two decks seemed to get hated out really bad. the two decks where zoo and counterbalance thopter. I mean everyone assumed zoo was the best deck in the format so people naturally played against it and tested against it. but i also heard reports of extirpate was really sought after at the tournament .

know the top 8 . I find the madness deck to be really odd and i am really skeptical about it . I don't really see this deck beating zoo . the guy has zero removal or draw effects and all of zoos creatures are bigger and are well much better than anything the madness deck plays. not to mention the guy who played the deck said that the deck plays differently if it has survival or not . so this is a interesting deck and all but I see it as a flash in the pan type deck

[Smmenen]

So . . . GP Columbus was probably more hotly anticipated than Madrid namely because of the fact that this is the first major tournament since Mystical Tutor had been banned and Grim Monolith unbanned.

What do you think of the results? What do the results tell us about the current state of Legacy and what adjustments, if any, do you think the meta will take as a result of this GP?


Frankly, I think they are fantastic, and intriguing. They are fantastic because they reaffirm basic principles of metagaming. The genius of Saito's Merfolk selection is the simplicity of it. He took an archetype that beats pretty much everything except for Zoo, Goblins and Lands, and then made an unusual color change to beat Zoo and Goblins, shoring up the worst matchups. E. Plague is great against Cat Zoo and Goblins, and Nature's Ruin/Perish clean up the rest. His Spell Piece and keeping Standstill was brilliant, as well. Merfolk preys on blue decks, and if you can just survive those bad matchups, you are going to beat the best players all day. That's exactly what Saito did. I watched probably 3 of Saito's matches on day 2, and I predicted he'd win the whole thing because Merfolk just beats up everything everyone else was playing at the top tables. His black tech allowed him to get there, where all of the other Merfolk players died. Everyone who hated on Merfolk was dead wrong. But anyone who actually paid attention to real Legacy results, like Jared Sylva's articles, knew that Merfolk was a good deck.

What's interesting is that there were two Dark Ritual decks and two Show and Tell decks in the top 8, but both were hybrids. I believe that the success of the Dark Ritual decks is directly attributable to the banning of Mystical Tutor. People would have run alot more hate against ANT if Mystical Tutor had been legal. I know I would have. This is a great, great, great example of the ways in which attempts to intervene in systems back-fire -- unintended consequences. I think we will see slightly more Dark Ritual decks doing well going forward. Certainly, alot more Show and Tell. These facts should only make Saito's Merfolk deck stronger.

[Tacosnape]

God, what a weird top 8. Merfolk, Landstill, Madness, Countertop, TES (Congrats, Bryant), Sneak and Tell, BGW Confidant, and Doomsday.

Here's my thoughts:

1. The Merfolk list. Skill of the player aside, this is a very well thought out splash sideboard. It fights Goblins and it fights Zoo. It doesn't need to do much more. It's a very intriguing option. Also, I've been playing MD Spell Pierce for about two months now, and it's max sexy.

2. Jace the Mind Sculptor -is- Legacy control. Period. Just watch. People are going to start running four of this guy for the control mirrors. I'm a bit hesitant on the Landstill list's chances against Goblins, though. And the manabase for the Countertop deck is a bit strange.

3. BGW Confidant. It's a solid list with solid cards. Discard is becoming better with the current evolution of the format into combo decks that explode from the hand. This could be a contender.

4. Sneak and Tell, Doomsday. I'll be honest. These are odd lists. While I like the Sneak Attack/Woodfall Primus silly synergy, I don't like the list, and I've never been a fan of Doomsday/Shelldock Isle combo (Though I like the Cloud of Faeries inclusion. Cute.) While I think these decks are contenders, I'm surprised to see them up that high in such a major tournament.

5. TES. Nobody will ever actually know for sure how good this deck is. Bryant wins with it. Other people, less so. The only thing this says about Legacy is that there's a lot to be gained from spending years mastering and crafting and understanding every angle of a single deck.

6. Vengevine Madness. Turn two Mongrel, pitch Vengevine, pitch/play Rootwalla, return Vengevine with force backup almost feels like you're playing a combo deck. Seriously silly shit. Doing Moose Stuff with Survival/Rootwalla/Vengevine is equally silly. I like it.

[Finn]

@Smennen, Jared was one of the guys telling us that Merfolk was garbage. He did change his story to suit the evidence. But he was confounded just like most people.

@Taco, Bryant-is-Legacy storm combo. Bill Stark might owe him an bow.

What a freaking amazing top 8. Do any of us actually understand anything about this format? Is it possible to wrap your mind around so many cards and possibilities? I can't even categorize half the decks as combo, control, aggro, or even which of those is its focus. Wizards had better protect this format. It reminds me of the days before internet-propelled net decks. The secret tech from the best players leaves everyone else scratching their heads. That is as good as this game gets.

[dahcmai]

That Landstill deck is almost exactly what I played. It does extremely well against Goblins surprisingly enough. It's a match you don't mind seeing come up. I had a different board, but the main is quite strong for it. It's the deeds that really do it for you and the Cunning wish for Tsabo's Decree is a game ender if you get to cast it. It's rough to pull that card off, but it's good game afterwards. No ringleader coming back after that.

Merfolk is actually one of the few matches you really don't want to see. It's 50/50 on how good they draw for that one. It might even be favorable since I didn't have a person who has played the crap out of it to test against. I can see how Saito's went so far though. He plays the full onslaught of lords you can jam into it. That's rough Lightning Bolting even one of the guys if you let it get any ground at all and it gets worse the further you go. It was a thought that was gaining ground before all this.


It's the whole reason I went with that deck. It has great game against Zoo, Goblins, countertop, Dredge, and a decent game against Merfolk. It's actually fairly weak against Storm sadly. It doesn't look like it is, but it's rough.

[Smmenen]

@Smennen, Jared was one of the guys telling us that Merfolk was garbage. He did change his story to suit the evidence. But he was confounded just like most people.


Actually, he wasn't. What he said was that mono blue Merfolk was garbage, to use your phrase, since it consistently performed worse than Ug or Uw Merfolk. He revised that assessment following Bertocini's performance with mono blue. He did point out that Merfolk was weaker to Zoo and Goblins, but if you look at the tournament stats, including the compiled results, Merfolk had 54% win percentage against the field, and that was much higher with either green or white splashes, which put it as one of the top performers in the field. There were two Merfolk decks in the last SCG $5K top 8.

[Finn]

Apparently, I don’t have the ear of the Legacy community on this issue because pretty much everyone played Mono Blue Merfolk in St. Louis… and they dominated. So, this is me saying my mea culpa. Three Top 16 decks, including 2nd and 3rd place, is a pretty good answer to my call to abandon Mono Blue builds. The one concern that I have is that this deck really beats up on Reanimator, a deck that will probably be dropping in popularity in this brave new, post-Mystical Tutor world.Yes, you are right. I misremembered that.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Here's my take on the situation.
#1 Jace is the blue Tarmogoyf.
#2 Counterspell and Pernicious Deed are back.
#3 Emerkul is a card you have to prepare for. He was everywhere day 1 and apparently made it big day 2 as well.
#4 Firespout is the new Wrath of God.
#5 Standstill is better than you've heard.

I guess Karakas is about to go up in value again.

[MMogg]

Dudes, to those people who keep calling Nelson's deck "BGW Confidant" or "Rock", it's neither. It's called Junk. Originally it was called PT Junk. It's not a new concept or archetype, it just got presented with a face lift. Even on the event coverage homepage they say it:


. . . including victories over Brad Nelson's Junk deck . . .

Sorry to be so pedantic, but it's just that it's like calling TES ANT. :tongue: Makes me wince.

[keys]

The amount of Emrakul is disgusting. Yay fatties.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think the GP reflects very little about the state of Legacy. The metagame has a lot of settling still to do and the decks that performed well were largely metagamed for the expected field, which is not perhaps the best possible field but merely the de facto field.

I mean no disparagement to those who did well or their deck composition but I don't see this as in any way definitive. For those of you with long memories, the 2001 Worlds presented a similar metagame, although it had not shifted as recently as Legacy leading up to the GP. The best deck in the format was Fires, but it was preyed upon by a metagame deck called Saporling Opposition. Saporling Opp tore Fires to pieces and had a decent game against most of the rest of the stuff out there. A lot of players, knowing Fires was the deck to beat, played Saporling Opposition to give themselves an edge against the field. Other players ran a deck called Machinehead, which had a rather poor Fires M/U but absolutely dominated Saporling Opposition, primarily through Plague Spitter. I think that this tournament showed a similar breakout of meta metadecks, with Zoo being the best deck in the format. Zoo was largely hated out because it was the expected DtB and the decks that prospered were decks that took advantage of the decks that foiled Zoo while still retaining a good or at least reasonable game against Zoo.

I would expect that in the wake of Columbus, people will reinstate their combo hate, now that they've seen that Mystical's absence has not killed it. This will weaken the control decks that prey on the combo that preys on Zoo and rebalance the format again.

I think that Nelson's deck (Kowal's deck, however you want to look at it) shows that the format has slowed significantly with the loss of MT, and that is still an unknown variable. Traditionally, fast aggro has been foiled effectively by slightly slower aggro with bigger creatures or better utility. Of course, traditionally, Nacatl and Tarmogoyf didn't exist; because of the high power level of the 1 and 2 cc cards, it may be that fatter aggro is impossible, although I would propose that a basic New Horizons shell can accomplish it (and possibly run Red or White instead of Blue). I think it will be several months before we see things truly settle out, if they ever do. The format is so broad, and the paths to victory so many, that it may be impossible to accurately predict the field of any tournament in the near future. There is a great balance to 1.5 right now. I guess that maybe that's all I can take away from Columbus, the field is still exquisitely balanced and innovation and clever deck construction are still clipping along at a satisfactory pace.

[Oiolosse]

I think the GP reflects very little about the state of Legacy. The metagame has a lot of settling still to do and the decks that performed well were largely metagamed for the expected field, which is not perhaps the best possible field but merely the de facto field.

I mean no disparagement to those who did well or their deck composition but I don't see this as in any way definitive. For those of you with long memories, the 2001 Worlds presented a similar metagame, although it had not shifted as recently as Legacy leading up to the GP. The best deck in the format was Fires, but it was preyed upon by a metagame deck called Saporling Opposition. Saporling Opp tore Fires to pieces and had a decent game against most of the rest of the stuff out there. A lot of players, knowing Fires was the deck to beat, played Saporling Opposition to give themselves an edge against the field. Other players ran a deck called Machinehead, which had a rather poor Fires M/U but absolutely dominated Saporling Opposition, primarily through Plague Spitter. I think that this tournament showed a similar breakout of meta metadecks, with Zoo being the best deck in the format. Zoo was largely hated out because it was the expected DtB and the decks that prospered were decks that took advantage of the decks that foiled Zoo while still retaining a good or at least reasonable game against Zoo.

I would expect that in the wake of Columbus, people will reinstate their combo hate, now that they've seen that Mystical's absence has not killed it. This will weaken the control decks that prey on the combo that preys on Zoo and rebalance the format again.

I think that Nelson's deck (Kowal's deck, however you want to look at it) shows that the format has slowed significantly with the loss of MT, and that is still an unknown variable. Traditionally, fast aggro has been foiled effectively by slightly slower aggro with bigger creatures or better utility. Of course, traditionally, Nacatl and Tarmogoyf didn't exist; because of the high power level of the 1 and 2 cc cards, it may be that fatter aggro is impossible, although I would propose that a basic New Horizons shell can accomplish it (and possibly run Red or White instead of Blue). I think it will be several months before we see things truly settle out, if they ever do. The format is so broad, and the paths to victory so many, that it may be impossible to accurately predict the field of any tournament in the near future. There is a great balance to 1.5 right now. I guess that maybe that's all I can take away from Columbus, the field is still exquisitely balanced and innovation and clever deck construction are still clipping along at a satisfactory pace.

You sir, fucking nailed it.

[Forbiddian]

This is a meaningless statement. The top deck will be the deck that most reliably beats other decks. Fast or slow may contribute to that, but it's not an independent factor that can be extracted to determine viability. Slow decks can and do dominate formats when conditions are right.

A draw = a loss after the first draw. In a short tournament, like 6 rounds, a 4-1-1 record is perfect, but a 12-1-3 record even doesn't get you there in this tournament.


It's better to get, say, 80% win, 10% loss, 10% draw in a very long tournament than 70% win, 5% loss, 25% draw. But I'd take the draw-more, lose-less deck in a shorter event.

Not to mention the mental fatigue factor if you play dozens of very long games over two days AND have to deal with time pressure. And then the other factor that control is generally harder to pilot and requires more knowledge of your opponent's decks than aggro. If you have Zoo or combo, you can just take the offensive and not worry about what your opponent is playing so much.

[GtF]

The results show that legacy is still the most diverse and awesome formats ever. 8 fairly distinct archetypes, tons of player interaction, what else can you really ask for? It looks like people may have underestimated combo after the banning and it did well because of it, but still not format-dominating. The variety of decks almost makes the banning of mystical look justified.
On the attendance issue, you can't expect it to have the same attendance as GP Madrid, american GPs just don't get to the same level as the european ones. If you compare it to GP Chicago from last year, the attendance is almost exactly the same, maybe a little bigger. I did think there would be a couple hundred more people there, but I can reasonably say very few people decided not to attend because mystical was banned.
Saito metagamed like the master he is, and he took it home. Really, the idea of adding perish and E. plague to fight merfolk's bad matchups seems so obvious in hindsight that I can't believe no one did it in any of the previous 5Ks this year. Survival is playable again (awesome) and this only makes me more sad about the cap on legacy imposed by the reprint policy.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think it might really be correct for the UG madness deck not to run tarmogoyf. Yes, it would be good, but would it be better than anything that's already there? The deck relies on the synergy of madness and discard outlets, and it also needs enough cards for FOW so things like Trygon predator can't just be straight up cut for goyf. I discussed the deck with Caleb at length throughout the tourney and I think he has good reasons for leaving Goyf out, even if it is the best creature ever.

[Jander78]

Force of Will discussion moved. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18424-[SCD]-Force-Of-Will

Please keep this thread on topic.

[Shawon]

One thing I learned from reading all the pre-top 8 coverage is that, in Legacy, there is no catch-all answer.

[Aggro_zombies]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think it might really be correct for the UG madness deck not to run tarmogoyf. Yes, it would be good, but would it be better than anything that's already there? The deck relies on the synergy of madness and discard outlets, and it also needs enough cards for FOW so things like Trygon predator can't just be straight up cut for goyf. I discussed the deck with Caleb at length throughout the tourney and I think he has good reasons for leaving Goyf out, even if it is the best creature ever.
If by "synergy" you mean the synergy between the four Madness cards and twelve discard outlets, then sure. There's lots of synergy.

I'm pretty sure he won most of his matches on the back of multiple Vengevine blowouts. Swording or otherwise RFG'ing the 'vines makes his deck so much worse it's actually painful. I mean, Aquamoeba? Really? Really? That card is terrible even if it lets you play Rootwallas for free (Rootwalla itself is terrible, and only playable because he has no way to refill his hand but needs to play two creatures per turn to get Vengevine back). Tarmogoyf at least lets you pretend to be a good deck when you can't just attack for 16 flying out of nowhere.

What he really needs is card draw of some sort. Once his hand is out of creatures and/or empty, his deck gets infinitely worse.

[Nidd]

One thing I learned from reading all the pre-top 8 coverage is that, in Legacy, there is no catch-all answer.
A disruptive deck that eats U decks alive and has a SB specifially designed to beat the few bad MUs it has seems to be quite catch-all.

That Top8 is impressive, there's a lot of stuff going on in these decklists.

[aceracerff]

PS: Can you realistically play survival without Squee? It's not like he doesn't pump mongrel, or Aquamoeba every turn if you don't have survival out.

no, the first thing i asked when lookin at this list was where the heck is the little red man

[GtF]

If by "synergy" you mean the synergy between the four Madness cards and twelve discard outlets, then sure. There's lots of synergy.

I'm pretty sure he won most of his matches on the back of multiple Vengevine blowouts. Swording or otherwise RFG'ing the 'vines makes his deck so much worse it's actually painful. I mean, Aquamoeba? Really? Really? That card is terrible even if it lets you play Rootwallas for free (Rootwalla itself is terrible, and only playable because he has no way to refill his hand but needs to play two creatures per turn to get Vengevine back). Tarmogoyf at least lets you pretend to be a good deck when you can't just attack for 16 flying out of nowhere.

What he really needs is card draw of some sort. Once his hand is out of creatures and/or empty, his deck gets infinitely worse.


Yes, really, aquamoeba.
He won on the back of multiple vengevine blowouts. How do you ensure those vengevine blowouts? Not by removing a third of your discard outlets. How do you ensure being able to cast force of will? Not by removing 4 of your 18 blue cards.
The deck got 4th in a 1300 person GP and everyone who played against it said it was sick. If you think it needs tarmogoyf, fine, but understand that you change the whole structure of the deck when you remove one component. Even one that looks as bad as aquamoeba.

[Meekrab]

Considering the population density differences between Europe and America do you think that's fair? Are you saying that if they announce another European Legacy GP for next year they will have 1000 less people than this year's?
Not just that, but this GP took place in Columbus. Ohio. No offense to anyone from Columbus or Ohio, but its a far cry from Madrid in the running for "places I want to spend a week(end)."

If this tournament was held in NYC or LA or Las Vegas or someplace like that, I imagine turnout would've been better, Mystical Tutor or not.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

I'm not so sure about that. No one cares what the city it's held in is like, they're probably coming in Friday night and leaving Sunday night or Monday morning. Ohio is centrally located, which keeps the price of flights about equal (and equally low, since as you said, no one wants to go to Ohio) for all parts of the country. I think if it were held in LA or NY, the GP may well have only been 700-800. Europe is small enough that people from mostly any country in it could fly or train there for cheap, since they have an awesome rail system. There are more than 2x as many people in Europe as in the US. 1300 is pretty impressive considering that fact.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm not so sure about that. No one cares what the city it's held in is like, they're probably coming in Friday night and leaving Sunday night or Monday morning. Ohio is centrally located, which keeps the price of flights about equal (and equally low, since as you said, no one wants to go to Ohio) for all parts of the country. I think if it were held in LA or NY, the GP may well have only been 700-800. Europe is small enough that people from mostly any country in it could fly or train there for cheap, since they have an awesome rail system. There are more than 2x as many people in Europe as in the US. 1300 is pretty impressive considering that fact.
It was going to cost me about $400 one-way to get to Ohio from Tucson. I'm not so sure about that being "cheap"...at least, not for self-funded graduate students.

[dahcmai]

I'd kill to see the top 9th - 16th decklists. There was some interesting stuff in there. Chapin's alone was pretty interesting. I saw it while I was there and it's fairly slick. Nice to see someone put some use to Fauna Shaman.

[SpikeyMikey]

It was going to cost me about $400 one-way to get to Ohio from Tucson. I'm not so sure about that being "cheap"...at least, not for self-funded graduate students.

Which would be a little more than 1 night in a hotel in NYC and you probably wouldn't be able to walk to the tourney.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'd kill to see the top 9th - 16th decklists. There was some interesting stuff in there. Chapin's alone was pretty interesting. I saw it while I was there and it's fairly slick. Nice to see someone put some use to Fauna Shaman.

I really think those are just complete trash in survival. I think a great example of that would be against Saito. He wastes his 2 drop on a Fauna Shaman, next turn plays Fauna Shaman #2 and fetches up a squee. In the meantime he gets just completely blown out by lords because he's playing a 2/2 that can only survival once a turn.

[Shabbaman]

I really think those are just complete trash in survival. I think a great example of that would be against Saito. He wastes his 2 drop on a Fauna Shaman, next turn plays Fauna Shaman #2 and fetches up a squee. In the meantime he gets just completely blown out by lords because he's playing a 2/2 that can only survival once a turn.

His deck was build around the Loyal Retainers/Iona or Emrakul combo. He wanted to play that combo consistently, hence the Fauna Shaman.

[dahcmai]

Well considering he would have been very close to top 8 had he not ran into a dredge deck that just happened to break into the higher ranks, it says something about the deck. Turn 3-4 Emrakul or Iona is nothing to laugh at especially if you're playing Merfolk. Patrick mentioned in the video that Fauna Shaman was basically Half a Survival as it's much slower, but it does keep the engine going to an extent. I can see that much. It's much better than typical survival where you just sit and pray to draw another survival or tutor. It's worth trying out to see how much slower it is. If it's only a turn or so, I'd wait one turn to get Emrakul.

[majikal]

Well considering he would have been very close to top 8 had he not ran into a dredge deck that just happened to break into the higher ranks, it says something about the deck. Turn 3-4 Emrakul or Iona is nothing to laugh at especially if you're playing Merfolk. Patrick mentioned in the video that Fauna Shaman was basically Half a Survival as it's much slower, but it does keep the engine going to an extent. I can see that much. It's much better than typical survival where you just sit and pray to draw another survival or tutor. It's worth trying out to see how much slower it is. If it's only a turn or so, I'd wait one turn to get Emrakul.
When I tested it, it seemed very, very slow. Sure, against some decks it will get there. But against anything with an actual clock you're just dead in the water. I'd rather build my deck to be more consistent without Survival, and then have the Survival package as an option, rather than be so reliant on the interaction between Retainers and Iona/Emrakul.

[Gheizen64]

I'm not so sure about that. No one cares what the city it's held in is like, they're probably coming in Friday night and leaving Sunday night or Monday morning. Ohio is centrally located, which keeps the price of flights about equal (and equally low, since as you said, no one wants to go to Ohio) for all parts of the country. I think if it were held in LA or NY, the GP may well have only been 700-800. Europe is small enough that people from mostly any country in it could fly or train there for cheap, since they have an awesome rail system. There are more than 2x as many people in Europe as in the US. 1300 is pretty impressive considering that fact.

More than train, it's the air. Flights in europe to and back from basically any place cost below 100 euros. You can also easily find flights for a weekend in a capital of europe for 30 euros depending on the period. And you need no kind of special ID, just your normal ID.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

The lesson I'm taking out of it is that simple, focused strategies make T8, doubtless because they don't misfire nearly as often. Consistency, then, is the key to a good performance.

[DrJones]

The lesson I'm taking out of it is that simple, focused strategies make T8, doubtless because they don't misfire nearly as often. Consistency, then, is the key to a good performance.Consistency is key when the tournament is so big you have to play seventeen rounds, but don't fall in the trap of thinking that it also works for small tournaments.