[Deck] Army of Ancients, aka ElfDrazi

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

"An army of ancients could rise from the ground,
And tear every nation apart;
And I'd still be sitting there,
Counting my cards, wondering:
When
Will
It
Stop?"

- Dr. Dog, Army of Ancients (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_VGVpi6f0E)

Food Chain- Elves is something I've been sawing at since before Thunder Bluff was cool, but I've redusted the concept off recently. And shockingly, I've actually found it to be at least potentially viable. First the list, then the details;

17x Snow-Covered Forest

4x Food Chain

4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Priest of Titania
4x Elvish Archdruid

4x Elvish Visionary
4x Multani's Acolyte
4x Fierce Empath
4x Sylvan Messenger
3x Llanowar Empath

1x Brass Herald
1x Myojin of Night's Reach
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

SB:
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4x Wirewood Symbiote
4x Wren's Run Vanquisher
3x Joraga Warcaller
3x Chameleon Colossus

The basic concept is the same; mana elves, food chain, card-draw creatures and big dorks. Main changes over the previous lists;

- The deck can now run 8 Multani's Acolyte and 8 Priest of Titania, greatly increasing consistency. And the new Priest is even a Lord (does that make him an elf Pope?)

- Although it's the third worst creature draw, Llanowar Empath still pretty much functions as a pointy eared Raven Familiar in this deck, helping you dig for a Food Chain or a combo creature.

- The biggest change, of course, is the printing of the Eldrazi, who basically allot you to compact the Empath-target list by being an answer to pretty much everything, and being castable off of Priest + Archdruid. Myojin is now the only creature that can't be cast without Food Chain, and she could be switched out in a combo-light metagame.

- The conversional board got a lot better with Lorwyn block.

- More of a metagame change, but decks running both Counterspell and Wrath of God have been drastically reduced. The closest heavily played lists are the Counterbalance-Firespout decks, and Counterbalance is fairly terrible against you. Firespout is still pretty good however (although it doesn't hit your fatties).

Some things still under consideration:

- Abandon the conversional board? The problem is that bringing in a lot of hate like Choke, Krosan Grip, etc., radically reduces your ability to combo off.

- Elvish Spirit Guide is now an elf, thanks to MODO. The question is where, if anywhere, to fit her in? She's great for the fast kill, but a lot worse trying to set up the slow roll.

- Myojin of Seeing winds probably is just worse than Kozilek. Myojin can give you more cards comboing off, but can't be "hardcast" off your elves. Kozilek also gives you a real threat besides Emrakul that has to be dealt with, whereas Seeing Winds is a 3/3.

Get back to this in a bit, have to run.

[Nihil Credo]

What was the problem with Quirion Ranger? The same as ESG's?

Regal Force looks much better than Brass Herald. Terastodon over Ulamog is also possible, although you probably want your answer to Moat/Plague to be uncounterable (Ulamog also hits Humility, I realise, but you can't tutor under Humility anyway).

[martyr]

Regal Force looks much better than Brass Herald. Terastodon over Ulamog is also possible, although you probably want your answer to Moat/Plague to be uncounterable (Ulamog also hits Humility, I realise, but you can't tutor under Humility anyway).

Regal Force doesn't draw you that many cards when you usually only have 1-2 creatures in play while going off.

Ulamog isn't uncounterable, and Moat effects are a pretty serious problem for this deck if they go down early enough.

Wirewood Hivemaster might be pretty neat, since it adds an extra green (or black, or whatever) mana for every elf you play, essentially. It also lets you develop your board quite a bit on the off chance the Chain fizzles; you didn't get your massive duder with Annihilate or whatever, but you get to attack for a bunch next turn.

I'm kind of curious about the Elvish Archdruids...They seem fairly slow, but I know very little about how this deck curves out and turn 3+ is probably the norm, or you end up playing a weird aggro strategy sometimes.

Final concern is fairly simple, you only have 4x Food Chains, no way to tutor them up, a clunky draw engine, and your creature quality is fairly low when you're not combo'ing out. Arguably you can hold out against creature based decks for quite a while, but what do you do against combo? Goblins had an absurdly aggressive deck even without Food Chain, and while you can essentially match them with the combo, without the combo this deck seems a bit dead in the water.

EDIT: Oh hey, Skyshroud Sentinel might be worth thinking about. They don't chain but they do ramp you up from 3 to 7 mana which may be a concern if you decide to run more Brass Heralds or whatever.

Glimpse of Nature seems pretty obviously a powerful inclusion, n'est-ce pas?

Lys Alana Huntmaster is a more synergistic but expensive version of Hivemaster.

I'll keep thinking of stuff but that's all I've got for now.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Anything that presumes you have lots of mana to spare or creatures sitting around while comboing off is probably sub-par, which applies to Regal Force as well as Lys Alana Huntmaster. Wirewood Hivemaster is a bit better because you can usually spare two mana, but worse than Deranged Hermit for all intents and purposes, and he also got the cut. Hermit is going to be the elf of choice if you want mana spikers under Food Chain, especially since he's a beating on his own, but the question of what to cut comes up. I don't think any of the card drawers or fatties are up for cuts, so it'd pretty much have to be another mana elf. And they all work better without the Food Chain. But I'll probably test out Regal Force at some point anyway.

@Nihil


Terastodon over Ulamog is also possible, although you probably want your answer to Moat/Plague to be uncounterable (Ulamog also hits Humility, I realise, but you can't tutor under Humility anyway).

You get three games. I'd rather have the option to try and blind draw or tutor Ulamog up before the enchantment lands with Fierce Empath.

@martyr


Final concern is fairly simple, you only have 4x Food Chains, no way to tutor them up, a clunky draw engine, and your creature quality is fairly low when you're not combo'ing out. Arguably you can hold out against creature based decks for quite a while, but what do you do against combo? Goblins had an absurdly aggressive deck even without Food Chain, and while you can essentially match them with the combo, without the combo this deck seems a bit dead in the water.

The card draw engine hasn't been all that clunky in practice, just vulnerable to Firespout/Wrath if you don't resolve a Food Chain. But those decks are also usually slow and can be rolled appropriately. And that's part of the reason for the SB. Combo wise it far outclasses anything Goblins could put out today. Elvish Archdruid is a big part of closing the aggro gap when you need to go green horde.



Glimpse of Nature seems pretty obviously a powerful inclusion, n'est-ce pas?

Does it? Where would you put it?

[Aggro_zombies]

Having no answers to active Counterbalance seems pretty poor when your deck's draw engine is mostly centered around 2cmc guys.

Actually, not having answers to active Counterbalance seems bad for this deck in general. You're also not fast enough to reliably go off before one comes down.

[JeroenC]

I like the deck, but don't you totally scoop it up to any resolved Ad Nauseam, Doomsday or Engineered Plague?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Having no answers to active Counterbalance seems pretty poor when your deck's draw engine is mostly centered around 2cmc guys.

Actually, not having answers to active Counterbalance seems bad for this deck in general. You're also not fast enough to reliably go off before one comes down.

Counterbalance alone isn't that scary, since the deck has a pretty high mana curve and and lots of ways to pump out mana/card advantage. A Tarmogoyf can be chumped and slow rolled to eternity. The combination of Countertop + Firespout is scary, which is what the sideboard is primarily aimed to beat. I would say if you see Countertop and no Volcanics, then try to slow roll and hope they're playing Bant. If that doesn't work out move to the board.


I like the deck, but don't you totally scoop it up to any resolved Ad Nauseam, Doomsday or Engineered Plague?

Combo is an unfavorable matchup, generally a race to see who combos off first. E. Plague cripples the secondary plan but only slows the combo, since you still get CiP triggers and can still rfg Empaths and Messengers for mana. But it does slow the combo a fair bit, unquestionably. Maindeck you want to try and stick Archdruid or Brass Herald to turn your other elves back on. The board is designed to be resilient to E. Plague in particular.

[JeroenC]

Also, why the lack of any Wasteland? It will randomly win you games against decks with weak manabases, or may just buy you the time you need against Combo every now and then.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Since you're already considering Myojins, how about the blue one?
Myojin of Seeing Winds There ya go
Also, Primordial Sage ensures that everything is an acolyte.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Since you're already considering Myojins, how about the blue one?
Myojin of Seeing Winds There ya go
Also, Primordial Sage ensures that everything is an acolyte.

I addressed blue Myojin in the opening post. Basically it weakens your not-Food Chaing game plan by being uncastable off of Priests/Archdruid, and it means that you have 1 honest-to-God threat in your deck when you do combo off with Food Chain. It's also not reliably better than Kozilek at the point where you're comboing off turn 2-4, which is where it matters in the matchups you need to combo off in.

Primordial Sage is something I've tinkered with off and on, and I'm not insanely adverse to it, but it's one of those things that assumes you have a lot of spare mana comboing off. If I have that much spare mana I'd generally rather draw a bunch of cards at once with Herald/Kozilek, or just drop the Emrakul that's going to win me the game right there. I haven't tested it out but it seems inefficient.


Also, why the lack of any Wasteland? It will randomly win you games against decks with weak manabases, or may just buy you the time you need against Combo every now and then.

Because the deck's already running the minimum number of lands it can to support the spells you want to cast. 17 lands with no 1cc cantrips isn't a lot. Mana elves go a long way but you need to be able to cast them and to be able to cast Acolytes if they die. When it comes to utility lands I think that Horizon Canopy is worth thinking about, although it does open you up to Wasteland, but that's about as far as I'd go.

I'm definitely not adverse to tweaks, but I think this list is about 95% optimal. There might be some number of Llanowar/Fyndhorns/Forests to be cut for ESGs, and something else might fit better in the Llanowar Empath and Kozilek/Herald/Myojin slots, but I don't think that there's too much beyond that. Maybe Sundering Titan still deserves a slot, or Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, but I'm not sure where. But if you give the deck a spin, it's actually quite decent as is, even despite its appearance.

[Nonex]

Elvish Spirit Guide is nice, but I'd prefer Birchlore Rangers or Arbor Elf instead, especially the former. You get mana despite summoning sickness.

For extra card draw, assuming Llanowar Empath and/or Herald don't make the cut, I'd go for either Harmonize or Sylvan Library, although they can't be cast with Food Chain mana. Another option could be Fierce Empath rather than Llanowar Empath and 1-2 more Heralds.

[Infinitium]

Why aren't the Symbiotes maindecked? They are essentially a mana and card advantage engine in themselves as well as protecting your important dudes from removal. If you insist on a transformational sideboard I'd also go ahead and max out the Warcallers since they are nut busted in 8xPriest builds, and make room for 4 Krosan Grip somehow (since it's the go-to sideboard card for any permanent that actually threatens your gameplan to any meaningful degree).

Also, what would you say are the tangible benefits of Food Chain over Glimpse of Nature?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Elvish Spirit Guide is nice, but I'd prefer Birchlore Rangers or Arbor Elf instead, especially the former. You get mana despite summoning sickness.

For extra card draw, assuming Llanowar Empath and/or Herald don't make the cut, I'd go for either Harmonize or Sylvan Library, although they can't be cast with Food Chain mana. Another option could be Fierce Empath rather than Llanowar Empath and 1-2 more Heralds.

God's sake, would it have been so hard to read the opening post?

There's not really a use for a second Herald. If you've played the first, you should have the mana to cast Kozilek for more card draw.


Why aren't the Symbiotes maindecked? They are essentially a mana and card advantage engine in themselves as well as protecting your important dudes from removal. If you insist on a transformational sideboard I'd also go ahead and max out the Warcallers since they are nut busted in 8xPriest builds, and make room for 4 Krosan Grip somehow (since it's the go-to sideboard card for any permanent that actually threatens your gameplan to any meaningful degree).

They were maindecked, but the number of times they interfered with the combo was greater than the number of times they won on their own. They're usually a blank going off, so they're mainly to win attrition wars.

Warcallers were maxed out, but you have a lot of card draw so it's not hard to get one when you actually have all that mana to play with.

Grip really doesn't have a use. The plan against Humility decks is to bring in Ulamog and fetch him early if you can't combo off in time, the plan against other decks is to transition.


Also, what would you say are the tangible benefits of Food Chain over Glimpse of Nature?

It really is an entirely different deck. I don't even know how I'd figure the deck out to fit in both, but Food Chain lets you actually cast Myojin/Eldrazi pretty reliably. Glimpse seems like a crapshoot to me.

[Infinitium]

I meant in the sense that decks revolving around Glimpse and Food Chain decks tend to have rather simular gameplans (get creatures on board, play engine spell, play out better part of library starting with the creatures in hand, win), not that you should try to bake in Glimpse into this shell. From a glance it justs seems to be a higher average cc version of that deck for better of worse, along with a big mana engine that is more difficult to remove preside?

[Grumpollion]

-3 Llanowar Empath
-4 Fierce Empath

+3 Chord of Calling
+4 Fauna Shaman

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

-3 Llanowar Empath
-4 Fierce Empath

+3 Chord of Calling
+4 Fauna Shaman

Chord of Calling can't be cast with Food Chain mana. Fauna Shaman is card disadvantage that doesn't do anything while cast if going off, and can't be activated with Food Chain mana. Fierce Empath is the entire reason the deck works; being able to tutor for the specific fattie you need is crucial. Llanowar Empath gives you redundancy to find your pieces.


I meant in the sense that decks revolving around Glimpse and Food Chain decks tend to have rather simular gameplans (get creatures on board, play engine spell, play out better part of library starting with the creatures in hand, win), not that you should try to bake in Glimpse into this shell. From a glance it justs seems to be a higher average cc version of that deck for better of worse, along with a big mana engine that is more difficult to remove preside?

I've had very little experience with Extended Glimpse-Elves, but it seems like they have to run a lot of creatures that are just bad on their own, or in the face of disruption. It also seems like it would be a lot harder to get to 15 mana while comboing off.

Late reply:


What was the problem with Quirion Ranger? The same as ESG's?

You could fit in a lot of mana elves, but ultimately you need something to do with that mana. It's just a balance that has to be reached.

Also, on Regal Force: The only way I can really see it working is if you also add the Deranged Hermits. Such a build is possible, I'm just not sure how I'd configure it.

[Grumpollion]

Fierce Empath is the entire reason the deck works; being able to tutor for the specific fattie you need is crucial. Llanowar Empath gives you redundancy to find your pieces.


Elvish Harbinger is probably better than Llanowar Empath at doing what the latter does, except that the former only puts the target on top of your library instead of into your hand. I suppose that this is why you chose the latter instead of the former.

When you play Llanowar Empath, and neither of the 2 cards that you scry is one that you want (but one of them is, at least, a creature), how often do you put both on the bottom of your library and take your chances with the next, unknown card?

[edgewalker]

You must not be very smart. Empath tutors for wincons.

Wrong Empath, though I agree that Llanowar Empath is better because it fixes draws as well as drawing any creature card, not just drawing an elf.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

When you play Llanowar Empath, and neither of the 2 cards that you scry is one that you want (but one of them is, at least, a creature), how often do you put both on the bottom of your library and take your chances with the next, unknown card?

If neither of the two is the one I want? Almost always, unless it's a card draw elf. This applies to when I'm digging for Food Chain as well (assuming that I need the combo and it doesn't make more sense to try and pick up Archdruids or whatever).

[Pastorofmuppets]

What the fuck is your problem? Are you just really anxious to find opportunities to be a jackass to others?

Welcome to mtgthesource.
^This right here? Absolutely fucking NOT. We expect experienced members to treat newcomers with respect, whether they agree with them or not. The mod staff absolutely doesn't condone this bullshit attitude, so cut it out. -zilla

Fierce Empath tutors for Eldrazi, Harbinger doesn't. I've been diddling with this, and it is quite common that Elvish Ringleader puts Emrakul on the bottom. Fierce Empath grabs him right back for ya.

[martyr]

[i]
17x Snow-Covered Forest

4x Food Chain

4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Priest of Titania
4x Elvish Archdruid

4x Elvish Visionary
4x Multani's Acolyte
4x Fierce Empath
4x Sylvan Messenger
3x Llanowar Empath

1x Brass Herald
1x Myojin of Night's Reach
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

SB:
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4x Wirewood Symbiote
4x Wren's Run Vanquisher
3x Joraga Warcaller
3x Chameleon Colossus



You are correct about Fierce Empath and why it's good, but that's not what anyone else is talking about.

[Grumpollion]

Welcome to mtgthesource.
Fierce Empath tutors for Eldrazi, Harbinger doesn't. I've been diddling with this, and it is quite common that Elvish Ringleader puts Emrakul on the bottom. Fierce Empath grabs him right back for ya.

As someone else already pointed out, I was talking about Llanowar Empath, not Fierce Empath.

Edited for content. Again, please report flames to the mod staff. Responding to them only perpetuates it. Thanks. -zilla

[Pastorofmuppets]

As someone else already pointed out, I was talking about Llanowar Empath, not Fierce Empath.

Edited for content. Again, please report flames to the mod staff. Responding to them only perpetuates it. Thanks. -zilla

In that case, Llanowar Empath grabs Eldrazi off the top, which is also important. If the deck was running all-Elf wincons, then the Harbinger would probably be much more functional. You'd need to wait a turn to get a elf anyway, which might be the difference between a win and a loss.

[martyr]

In that case, Llanowar Empath grabs Eldrazi off the top, which is also important. If the deck was running all-Elf wincons, then the Harbinger would probably be much more functional. You'd need to wait a turn to get a elf anyway, which might be the difference between a win and a loss.

Harbinger isn't not a good card for the deck because it is restricted to Elves (although that is a concern), it's bad because it doesn't continue the chain without doing some weird tricks with Acolytes or something. Llanowar Empaths pick up Heralds, Eldrazi, or random elves, and can dig for important non-creature things.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Made the following changes to the SB to combat E Plague/Firespout:

Out:
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher

In:

1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Caller of the Claw

Also experimenting with 4x ESG in place of 2 Llanowar, 1 Multani's Acolyte, and 1 Forest.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Made the following changes to the SB to combat E Plague/Firespout:

Out:
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher

In:

1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Caller of the Claw

Also experimenting with 4x ESG in place of 2 Llanowar, 1 Multani's Acolyte, and 1 Forest.

Llanowar what?
Also, Warcaller seems like it'd be really good in here, amirite? He's a wincon that you can pick up with Ringleader.

[Brushwagg]

I've been looking for a use for my Food Chains for a while now and this is pretty close to what I was looking for. I just got it put together and goldfished it a bit and hope to get some good testing in this weekend on it.

A few thoughts though.

1. I changed the Myojin of Night's Reach to Myojin of Seeing Winds since if your going off drawing more cards seems better there.
2. Wirewood Symbiote should fit in as at least a 2 of some where.
3. There have been times when the deck drew nothing to keep itself going. I'm thinking Glimpse might find a way in as a 2 of also.
4. Drawing Land sucks. I might try 8-10 Fetches and 7-9 Forest and maybe a couple of Pendelhavens

My SB plan will probably include Xantid Swarms and Krosan Grips, and Chokes since blue is heavy in my meta.

[Pastorofmuppets]

1. I changed the Myojin of Night's Reach to Myojin of Seeing Winds since if your going off drawing more cards seems better there.


This was my thought. I really don't think you need disruption AFTER you're already comboing out.

[1maarten1]

Made the following changes to the SB to combat E Plague/Firespout:

Out:
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher

In:

1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Caller of the Claw

Also experimenting with 4x ESG in place of 2 Llanowar, 1 Multani's Acolyte, and 1 Forest.

I took some time to test the list yesterday. I usually play elf combo, not the standard elf-glimpse list, but a lot more aggro. I really liked how the maindeck played, but I aint sure about the sideboard. In one of the games I played, I faced a turn 2 Canonist, and realised that I couldnt do shit about that.. I think there should be some room for 4 krosan grips, I know that it doesnt work well with the combo, but I feel we need some kind of answer against troublefull arti's/enchantments.

And in what matchups do you want to use your transformal-sideboard? Also I dont really like Caller of the claw in regular elf combo, but I can see it working different here, since you wont have to leave your land open. You could just food chain an elf, and then go caller. I'll give it a try!

I think the MD is pretty solid, but that the sideboard is alot harder to figure out. I'll keep testing and see what works best for me :)!

~Maarten

[Hawdes]

I took some time to test the list yesterday. I usually play elf combo, not the standard elf-glimpse list, but a lot more aggro. I really liked how the maindeck played, but I aint sure about the sideboard. In one of the games I played, I faced a turn 2 Canonist, and realised that I couldnt do shit about that.. I think there should be some room for 4 krosan grips, I know that it doesnt work well with the combo, but I feel we need some kind of answer against troublefull arti's/enchantments.

And in what matchups do you want to use your transformal-sideboard? Also I dont really like Caller of the claw in regular elf combo, but I can see it working different here, since you wont have to leave your land open. You could just food chain an elf, and then go caller. I'll give it a try!

I think the MD is pretty solid, but that the sideboard is alot harder to figure out. I'll keep testing and see what works best for me :)!

~Maarten

Since the deck seems to be based around creatures (elves in perticular) the only go to cards against enchantments and/or artifacts are Viridian Zealot, Viridian Shaman or even worse Elvish Scrapper and Elvish Hexhunter/Elvish Lyrist... That seems ok to decent.
These are not optimal but you have to sacrifice some utility for the sake of the tribe. The most effective card to deal with these permanents are undoubtably Krosan Grip.

[1maarten1]

Since the deck seems to be based around creatures (elves in perticular) the only go to cards against enchantments and/or artifacts are Viridian Zealot, Viridian Shaman or even worse Elvish Scrapper and Elvish Hexhunter/Elvish Lyrist... That seems ok to decent.
These are not optimal but you have to sacrifice some utility for the sake of the tribe. The most effective card to deal with these permanents are undoubtably Krosan Grip.

Yea so I wanted to test if it would hurt the combo too much if you ran 4 Grips. Otherwise maybe some combination of Horizon Canopy + Harmonic sliver?

InfamousBearAssasin Could you please point out to me when you want to board in your sb cards, and what you take out the maindeck? :)! Would help me alot!

[Brushwagg]

So I got a good amount of testing in yesterday. All was pre-board, since ai don't have a SB put together as of yet. I really didn't keep track of records since we pretty much when game after game after game.

Merfolk (3-2): Only counterspell that is relevant is FOW. The games I lost I couldn't get Food Chain in time and got out "Lorded".

Non-LED Ichorid (evenish, can't remeber how many games were played between 2-3 people on this). This match comes down to a turn 2 Food Chain for the win. Anything past that and this match becomes a hope they crap out on their Dredges until you find Food Chain and don't crap out yourself or have so many Zombies that the Annihilator sucks. Mull till you see a Food Chain.

Goblins: (didn't keep track of record) But again this match comes down to seeing Food Chain before you die. I'm sure a SB in this match would help more then another, since you could pump your guys with the Warcallers etc.

CounterTop w/Firespout: They see Firespout and can back it up with Dudes, you lose. They don't you win.

U/B/W: Non-Counterbalance Thopter: STP was a Bitch sometimes when I kept a land light hand and my LLanowars got sent to the farm and Humility hurt. But over all it was a positve match up since the deck couldn't counter everything and a resolved Food Chain usually ment GG.

Over all I think this deck is really strong and gives me a way to use one of my favorite cards. The 2nd Fierce Empath caused the most scoops since it goes gets Emrakul. The 1st one 99% of the time went to find Brass Hearld. I want to be able to play like 2 more Feirce Empath.

I was kind of surprised at the amount of games the deck didn't fizzel. I consider a fizzel not getting Emrakul. But in those games most of the time I was able to put 4-5 dudes into play. A fair amount of those games though ended in a loss. I'm going to test Wirewood Symbiotein the main as a 2 of to see if it can get me past the fizzels. The thing that caused the most fizzels was not being able to find Emarkul or Feirce Empath.

Myojin of Seeing Winds was awesome. It never drew me less then 4-5 cards and sometimes 6-7 cards were drawn. I'm keeping it in my list.

I'm also considering testing out 8 Fetchlands and 9 Forest. I figure if I can get 2 lands out of the deck that this will help the flips on Messenger and Hearld. I've noticed on average that there are 2 lands in the flips.

The only thing I wish this deck could do was get Haste.

[Hawdes]

...
I was kind of surprised at the amount of games the deck didn't fizzel. I consider a fizzel not getting Emrakul. But in those games most of the time I was able to put 4-5 dudes into play. A fair amount of those games though ended in a loss. I'm going to test Wirewood Symbiotein the main as a 2 of to see if it can get me past the fizzels. The thing that caused the most fizzels was not being able to find Emarkul or Feirce Empath.
...

You might want to try out Wirewood Herald if you're having trouble finding these pieces... The Herald would find Fierce Empath that will find Emrakul, if I'm not misstaken.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Myojin of Night's Reach is fantastic against combo decks and things like Enchantress. Basically there are two scenarios where she's good;

1) You can't reliably kill with Emrakul in one swing, for whatever reason, or

2) You can't get to 15 mana. In this case the best thing is to cast Myojin to dump their hand and then land Kozilek or a bunch of elves and hope they don't topdeck anything.

I'm not wed to the card, but I think in most metagames it will make sense to play her.

For the sideboard:

If I'm playing against a deck running counters/discard + board sweepers I'll bring in the 14 transition cards, swapping out 4 Food Chain, the 4 Fatties, 4 Fierce Empaths and usually 0-2 each Llanowar Empath or Multani's Acolyte.

If you're just worried about a lot of counters you can leave out the Callers and keep 2 Fierce Empath and Emrakul as an oops I win factor.

Ulamog will often come in if there's a sniff of a combo-wrecking piece, mostly Humility or Ensnaring Bridge.


You might want to try out Wirewood Herald if you're having trouble finding these pieces... The Herald would find Fierce Empath that will find Emrakul, if I'm not misstaken.

Food Chain exiles a creature, it doesn't sacrifice it. So Herald won't trigger. I know, otherwise Caller of the Claw would be amazing.

[Brushwagg]

Myojin of Night's Reach is fantastic against combo decks and things like Enchantress. Basically there are two scenarios where she's good;

1) You can't reliably kill with Emrakul in one swing, for whatever reason, or

2) You can't get to 15 mana. In this case the best thing is to cast Myojin to dump their hand and then land Kozilek or a bunch of elves and hope they don't topdeck anything.


I see you point and it's a good one. I'm proabably going to include it in the SB.

I'm probably looking at something like this for my meta.

4x Joraga Warcaller
1x Caller of the Claw
3x Krosan Grip
3x Xantid Swarm
1x Myojin of Night's Reach
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2x Wirewood Symbiote

I probably wouldn't change too much for a bigger meta. Maybe a few Steely Resolve for the Zoo match-up.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Gaea's Herald seems better than Xantid Swarm. If you're playing against counters forcing through Food Chain probably isn't the most important thing.

[Brushwagg]

The reason I was thinking Xantid Swarm was it can cut your oppoenent off from playing anything then sac for 2 mana. Gaea's Herald is fine as well but if your going that route then it will pretty much make it so you have to go aggro.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Xantid Swarm seems better for forcing through the combo, I suppose. But the only matchup I can think of where you're facing heavy counters and it makes more sense to try and force the combo through instead of transitioning is something like Aluren.

[Brushwagg]

Well I'm not sure how many people are actually tring this deck out, but what are people's thoughts on main decking 1-2 Joraga Warcaller? I've been picking through the Combo Elves thread and some people are main decking them to give another way out. I'm going to test out a couple in place of 1 Multani's Acolyte and 1 Fyndorn Elves.

[1maarten1]

Well I'm not sure how many people are actually tring this deck out, but what are people's thoughts on main decking 1-2 Joraga Warcaller? I've been picking through the Combo Elves thread and some people are main decking them to give another way out. I'm going to test out a couple in place of 1 Multani's Acolyte and 1 Fyndorn Elves.

I am testing/building the deck :)

I played elf combo, before i started playing/testing this. And after a while, I dropped from every other wincon. I played 4 warcaller, 4 titania, 4 archdruids and 2 crossroads next to the standard package, dropping birchlore rangers. It also played 4 ESG, 4 sylvan messenger. It was very powerfull, I was able to beat people from 20 to 0 in turn 2.. And did it pretty consistent on turn 3.

But im not sure about maindecking Warcaller here, sure you can kick it with the mana from chain, but usually when I go off, at the end I have Emrakul, but I dont have too many creatures laying next to it, I dont know how your experience is here, but in that way I dont find it worth it to play a warcaller for 2-3 elves that are in the battlefield.

Or is it for cases where you dont ramp up to 15 mana? Because then I think I rather grab a fattie like Myojin, and let him disc his hand. Im not sure. Test it out and tell us what you think :D!

[Brushwagg]

I'm proposing the Warcaller main for those games where:

1. Can't dig up a Food Chain. Archdruids don't provide enough of a bonus to get the job done.

2. While comboing can't seem to find a Fierce Empath (it happens sometimes). So a Warcaller or 2 could almost, be like running another 2.

I'm going to try them out this weekend and see how it goes. I not going to able to make it to a local tournament for a couple of weeks due to work, which sucks.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you feel a need for a maindeck elf-threat, I would recommend Deranged Hermit, since it has more synergy with Food Chain in addition to being a powerful lone threat.

[Brushwagg]

Totally forgot about that guy. I hope to get some more testing in to see how things shake out. One reason I thought of Warcaller is that he is still good under Humility. Counters > Humility
I want to play this deck in a tournament so bad.

[Brushwagg]

So I played some games aganist CounterTop w/ Firespout again. What a mess. This time we usedour SB, but I'm not sure I boarded right. I brought in the 3x Gaea's Herald, 2x Warcaller, Ulamog, and Caller of the Claw. I left in Food Chain because it felt like I needed to combo to win. Should had I gone with 13 cards and taken every combo peice out except Emrakul?

[thorin_the_king]

tried with ESG and i dislike it. it's faster sometimes but i prefer the stability of 8 llanowar 8 visionaries 17 forest. i think md is very tight and i wont change anything except for myojin if we know we have a combo less meta.

sideboard im still unsure about it. another card i'd want is terastodon next to ulamog. but i dont know if the transformational sb is worth it. are you still using it IBA and the others?

cheers- thorin

[1maarten1]

tried with ESG and i dislike it. it's faster sometimes but i prefer the stability of 8 llanowar 8 visionaries 17 forest. i think md is very tight and i wont change anything except for myojin if we know we have a combo less meta.

sideboard im still unsure about it. another card i'd want is terastodon next to ulamog. but i dont know if the transformational sb is worth it. are you still using it IBA and the others?

cheers- thorin

Hmm I dont know about Terastodon. I always found Ulamog too be enough for the hate cards. Terastodon wont help against Humility, and for the rest I can think of too much stuff that I would need an Terastodon for tbh.

I am using the transformational sb atm, has worked nice some times, didnt test it enough to tell you my final verdict tho. Caller of the claw is really a bomb in my sb, has done very good thinks for me so far.

@InfamousBearAssasin
Sorry if its a stupid question, but: What's so strong about Deranged hermit? Just that it drops 4 bodies? :)

Maarten

[Brushwagg]

Sorry if its a stupid question, but: What's so strong about Deranged hermit? Just that it drops 4 bodies? :)

That and for 5 mana you get 10 with Food Chain.

@Humility: I not really worried about Humility as much as Firespout. I played some games against Nightmare and he was playing Counterbalance and Firespout. His mana curve is right around this deck's so it was very unfavorable.

[1maarten1]

That and for 5 mana you get 10 with Food Chain.

@Humility: I not really worried about Humility as much as Firespout. I played some games against Nightmare and he was playing Counterbalance and Firespout. His mana curve is right around this deck's so it was very unfavorable.

Oh lol I forgot you can Chain your tokens also :) Nice, but in what cases would you prefer it over any other fatty in the maindeck?

And yes, I found Firespout very, very powerfull too. Hope to do some more testing in the following days.

[Brushwagg]

IBA was suggesting it instead of the Warcallers I proposed to move into the main deck. I really love this deck I just want it to have a stronger plan B in the main and not screw the combo up. I've found that you if you need to go beat down you can, but not very well. I've lost more games then won going that route.

I'm considering a complete 180 for the SB but I really haven't gotten on paper, more of just a thought I'll write down see how it looks and maybe see what you guys think.

[kicks_422]

This deck is awesome. The maindeck in the OP is already great as it is, I just tweaked it a bit by adding the 4th Empath over a Forest, and I'm contemplating on switching the black Moyjin with Ulamog in the SB.

How about a transformational board into Survival Elves? Is that possible? I don't know what MU's that would greatly help though.

[1maarten1]

This deck is awesome. The maindeck in the OP is already great as it is, I just tweaked it a bit by adding the 4th Empath over a Forest, and I'm contemplating on switching the black Moyjin with Ulamog in the SB.

How about a transformational board into Survival Elves? Is that possible? I don't know what MU's that would greatly help though.

In my testing I found the CB-top matchup the hardest, especially with Firespout in the board. So I guess we need to focus on a sideboard to make that MU more viable? :)

Combo will be hard I think, even though a turn 2 kill worked for me quite often. I have not had much experience with the sideboarding yet, I have been testing the maindeck most of the time.

[kicks_422]

I guess you can board in Krosan Grip and Caller of the Claw. I think taking out pieces of the maindeck would severely cripple the combo plan, so if I would board in some cards, I think a total transformation is required.

[Quark.Nova]

I have a (maybe) very noobish question. Why do use Snowcovered Lands instead of normal ones? I have seen this a few times, but always thought Snowcovered Lands only make sense in cooperation with Scrying Sheets. Is there any other benefit of using them?

[1maarten1]

I have a (maybe) very noobish question. Why do use Snowcovered Lands instead of normal ones? I have seen this a few times, but always thought Snowcovered Lands only make sense in cooperation with Scrying Sheets. Is there any other benefit of using them?

Nah ;) Is just because someone likes the look of them or smthn. They have the exact same function as basics here.

@Kicks

Agreed, Caller of the Claw has came in really handy for me already. Not sure about Krosan grips yet, might be worth a try!

[K_Rot_T]

Quick question: Why don't you put the Natural Order-> Progenitus combo in the side? I know you can't use the food chain mana for NO, but with CC4 you got a chance to bypass counterbalance and don't need to be afraid of Firespout. Also, there is a minmal chance of castig Progenitus with foodchain Mana, which would be pretty cool :cool:

[kicks_422]

Playing against Counterbalance, I've realized that it's not really a huge problem since most of the deck's bombs are of the 3cc and up range, which CB-control decks run just a few cards of. It's really the sweepers that kill the deck, but you can play around those with getting 1-2 elves out a time beofre casting Food Chain.

A transformational board into Survival Elves with the NO-package would require: 4 Survival, 4 Natural Order, 1 Progenitus, and 6 more Elves. Viable?

[Sain]

How about splashing blue or red?

Coiling Oracle (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=41077) seems better than either Elvish Visionary or Multani's Acolyte, and Sages of the Anima (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=56110), while not immediately helpful could be very good when paired with Visionary or Acolyte (I realize this isn't exactly synergistic with coiling oracle).

Along the same lines, Bloodbraid Elf (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=56148) costs 4 mana, and produces between 7 and 9 mana with Food Chain, and could even randomly hit a food chain if you're in need.

You already want to play some large number of fetch lands, so the splash is easy, and it would open up some sideboard options. I'm not sure if the benefits outweigh the potential to be disrupted by wasteland, however.

I haven't tested any of this, just some things to think about.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

One of the reasons I recommend a transitional plan is that the combo is actually fairly tight. There's also very little overlap between the matchups where the combo is your main path to victory and where you need sideboard cards in particular. Hence the aggro-elves strategy for the post-board. I have no idea how the Survival-Elves package would fare here instead.

Sages of the Anima seems really hard to exploit, while Coiling Oracle isn't strong enough to open yourself up to Wasteland/Stifle over. Bloodbraid Elf seems interesting, but the only slot I can see it in is replacing Llanowar Empath. But then it can't dig as well and may just hit a mana elf while comboing. Again, not sure if it's worth the splash. If there are some other cards I'm missing the splash might become reasonable though. I'd want to up the mana base though.

Also, agreed that I've dropped Elvish Spirit Guide in testing. Although it was great against random Stax decks.

[kicks_422]

One of the reasons I recommend a transitional plan is that the combo is actually fairly tight. There's also very little overlap between the matchups where the combo is your main path to victory and where you need sideboard cards in particular. Hence the aggro-elves strategy for the post-board. I have no idea how the Survival-Elves package would fare here instead..

I agree 100% with this. It's very difficult to board out 4 cards for 4 SB cards without disrupting the combo. It's either you go for the combo with Food Chain or you go aggro.

[Brushwagg]

Well if we did go with white as a splash color we could get Absolute Law. That should make Firespout almost a non-issue. Not to mention Orim's Chant or Silence, which could inprove the storm combo (haven't tested this but it seems bad) and control match-up.

I also was thinking of the Natural Order plan for the Side Board. The problem I see with this is Perish is still bad for us. But if we had a full set of Elvish Spirit Guide to power it out turn 2 could help.

@Grip: I think it needed for the likes of Engineered Plague and Humility when you can't get to 11 mana for Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

[Pastorofmuppets]

You forgot to mention Enlightened Tutor, Brushwagg.

[raudo]

Interesting deck.

Have you considered summoner's pact to keep combo going?

[lorthos]

Have you considered summoner's pact to keep combo going?

Summoner's Pact doesn't work very well in this deck, imo. Pre-Food Chain it's useless, and it's not really needed during Food Chain. However, it's upkeep cost will certainly cost you the game. When I play this deck, I typically cast Emrakul (on a good day) and indulge in the free time warp clause proceeding to annihilate face. If you had used any Summoner's Pacts you could be in debt :2::g::g: or possibly more, depending on how many free pacts you used. I rarely have 4 mana on turn 3-4 post Food Chain, I'm sure you could possibly play around this but as far as my testing goes, I'm not fond on the pact.

[Brushwagg]

You forgot to mention Enlightened Tutor, Brushwagg.

No, no I didn't.

@Summoner's Pact: Plus it doesn't get an Eldrazi or Myojin. Combo Elves uses it because they don't run as many cantrips or digging as this deck does. Plus you really only need to find 1 or 2 Fierce Empath.

[lorthos]

@Brushwagg: I second the motion for Joraga Warcaller in the main. I'm currently running it as a one of, it happens to be quite useful. At worst its mid-Food Chain +1 mana elf dork, however, you can get Liu Kang on it and give your elves +4/+4 or more and really bring on the pain.

[Pastorofmuppets]

@Brushwagg: I second the motion for Joraga Warcaller in the main.
Basically, this. Warcaller is really, really good.
Also, the big reasons for Pact in Elves are:
1) Needs moar Nettle Sentinel/Heritage Druid engine
2) Emergency artifact hate (Viridian Shaman)
3) Out of Mana (Spirit Guide)

And, it gives free Storm, and untaps your Sentinels if nothing else. It's good because of its synergy with the rest of the deck. Here, it's just something that you'd wish was another 1-mana elf. Also, you need to make it to your next combat phase. Paying 4-16 mana on your upkeep may prevent that.

[Brushwagg]

Basically, this. Warcaller is really, really good.
Also, the big reasons for Pact in Elves are:
1) Needs moar Nettle Sentinel/Heritage Druid engine
2) Emergency artifact hate (Viridian Shaman)
3) Out of Mana (Spirit Guide)

And, it gives free Storm, and untaps your Sentinels if nothing else. It's good because of its synergy with the rest of the deck. Here, it's just something that you'd wish was another 1-mana elf. Also, you need to make it to your next combat phase. Paying 4-16 mana on your upkeep may prevent that.

Are you sure you posted in the right thread??

1. This deck uses Food Chain instead of the Heritage/Sentinel for combo mana. So we really don't need to search for either one.

2. I really can't think on any Artifacts that this deck needs to kill while comboing.

3. Mana is almost never an issue.

@ESG: I 've been thinking of it and I've decided that it is not needed at all. It doesn't speed the deck up anymore then it already is. The only thing that ESG really gives is a more protection for Daze or Spell Pierce. Both of which are non-issues.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Are you sure you posted in the right thread??

1. This deck uses Food Chain instead of the Heritage/Sentinel for combo mana. So we really don't need to search for either one.

2. I really can't think on any Artifacts that this deck needs to kill while comboing.

3. Mana is almost never an issue.

@ESG: I 've been thinking of it and I've decided that it is not needed at all. It doesn't speed the deck up anymore then it already is. The only thing that ESG really gives is a more protection for Daze or Spell Pierce. Both of which are non-issues.

I was making points to why Pact is good elsewhere, and how none of those are relevant here. Hence, the last 2 sentences or so of the post.
Also, how often do people pay the echo for Acolyte? I kind of figured that if I already have Food Chain up, I'll pay 2 mana and get 3, so there's no reason to not pay it.

[lorthos]

@ESG: I 've been thinking of it and I've decided that it is not needed at all. It doesn't speed the deck up anymore then it already is. The only thing that ESG really gives is a more protection for Daze or Spell Pierce. Both of which are non-issues.

ESG isn't needed, I have been trying 3 for awhile and have been quite displeased.



Also, how often do people pay the echo for Acolyte? I kind of figured that if I already have Food Chain up, I'll pay 2 mana and get 3, so there's no reason to not pay it.

I only play 3 Multani's Acolyte right now, however, as of right now I'm going back to 4. The echo was frustrating me, I've been considering it Elvish Visionary 5-8. However, your scenario of an idle Acolyte post-Food Chain is strange to me, the only time I keep elves out usually post-Food Chain is if I have Joraga Warcaller.

[Bigface]

What about Khalni Hydra as a beater? You can cheat it into play for a few G mana and Chain him for 9.

[Brushwagg]

@Multani's Acolyte:It really depends on what is going onif I pay the echo. 99% of the time I don't pay. However if I stall out mid combo and drop a ton of dudes I will pay the echo for another beater. The reason I don't pay it most of the time the mana is better used for something else. If you have nothing else to play then you probably should have sent that hand back.

@Hydra: The Eldrazi are better then it. Also the Fierce Empaths are the the only to tutor it up so I'd rather get an Eldrazi/Myojin or Brass Herald to keep the combo going or start it.

[Brushwagg]

I think I've settled on a SB.

3x Krosan Grip
3x Joraga Warcaller
2x Caller of the Claw
2x Steely Resolve
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3x Gaea's Herald
1x Myojin of Night's Reach This might become Wirewood Symbiote

Warcaller and Clawer are there for the games when you just go beat down or Firespout seems to be popping up alot. I tesed out Hearlds and they worked great aganist CB decks and the like. Steely Resolve is also there for the games when your going beat down. As for Grip I really feel it is needed for Humility and Plagues etc.. Ulamog might be finding it's way out of the deck altogether.

Other SBs I was looking at:

3x Krosan Grip
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
4x Joraga Warcaller
2x Caller of the Claw
1x Open Slot

4x Survival of the Fittest
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Anger
3x Krosan Grip
2x Joraga Warcaller
1x Caller of the Claw
1x Quirion Ranger
1x Wren's Run Packmaster
1x Imperious Perfect

This one involes Adding Fetches and Taigas to the deck. Next on would need Savannah.

3x Krosan Grip
3x Absolute Law
2x Steely Resolve
3x Joraga Warcaller
2x Caller of the Claw
2x Gaddock Teeg

[kicks_422]

You don't have grave hate out of the SB? Iona on Green and Ichorid's Therapies steamrolled me two straight games. I was winning most of my games until I went up against those two.

Also, is Gaea's Herald really necessary? You'd want her in to protect your combo... But I thought the point of the SB was to be unreliant on the combo?

[Brushwagg]

Also, is Gaea's Herald really necessary? You'd want her in to protect your combo... But I thought the point of the SB was to be unreliant on the combo?

I wish it was that simple. I've been doing a good amount of testing and aganist decks packing Counterbalance they can still just shut you out of the game. So I feel Herald is needed to get guys into play and to "protect" the combo in that match.

@Ichorid: I played against the NON-LED verision and was able to race it fine. Yes I did lose some games to Iona but if you get Food Chain down turn 2 you should be just fine. The LED verision could be a little more tricky. There just isn't enough room in the SB to do everything. So I feel racing Ichorid is the better bet then watering down the combo and hoping to draw some grave hate.

@Reanimator:Un-tested. But as long as they don't open Entomb, it should be a racable match. I'm probabaly wrong here, but that's how I feel.

[kicks_422]

Oh, so you don't board out your Food Chains against CB decks? So how do you board against those?

I'm going to try running without grave hate out of the side. I'll get back to this once I face Ichorid/Reanimator again.

[Brushwagg]

Oh, so you don't board out your Food Chains against CB decks? So how do you board against those?

I've been working on it. I'm tring this out right now:

W/O Firespout

-1 Myojin of Seeing Wind
-3 Priest of Titania
-1 Fyndhorn
-2 Multani's Acolyte

+3 Gaea's Herald
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Steely Resolve

I hear why take out Priests? Well I've found that Priest normally gets countered or STP is played before I get to use it once. Also Preist kind of makes Firespout better since it needs a good amount of Elves to really give you some mana.

W/Firespout

-1 Myojin of Seeing Wind
-4 Priest of Titania
-2 Fyndhorn
-2 Multani's Acolyte
-1 Food Chain
-1 LLanowar Empath
-1 Fierce Empath

+3 Gaea's Herald
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Steely Resolve
+3 Joraga Warcaller
+2 Caller of the Claw

I also try to make it so Firespout doesn't hit the board for for more then 3-4 Elves. This is probably the hardest match-up I've tested to date.


I'm going to try running without grave hate out of the side. I'll get back to this once I face Ichorid/Reanimator again.

As I've said before you can race Ichorid. As for Reanimator I think it's a bad match-up, but the price tag on Entombs and the banning of Mystical will kepp the number of people playing the deck low. The matches your going to face alot are Merfolk, CounterTop, and Zoo with CounterTop being the most difficult.

Zoo: (If anything)
-1 Fyndhorn
-1 Multani's Acolyte

+2 Steely Resolve


Merfolk: Nothing. You really only need to worry about Force of Will. Daze and Spell Pierce are pretty much not issues.

[kobe8]

Hi,i am new to the forum but i read a lot before register:) after that i would like to ask how this deck can manage combo,that are faster that us...i play 4 thorn in sb but in my opinion it isn't a good much up,your opinion?

thx

[ummon]

I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but what advantages does this deck have over the traditional elves combo?

[Brushwagg]

Well played this deck today to a 4-3 finish, had to win last round to make top16. I played the deck in the open post except for Myojin of Seeing Wind. With this SB:

3x Krosan Grip
3x Joraga Warcaller
2x Caller of the Claw
2x Steely Resolve
1x Terastodon
3x Gaea's Herald
1x Myojin of Night's Reach

I boarded in everything muliple times except for the Myojin and Terastodon (both came in the same round other then that they stayed in the board).

My wins were: Goblins 2-1, Rock ?? 2-1, CounterTop w/o Firespout 2-0, Shelldrazi 2-0. Losses were, Countertop w/oFirespout 1-2 (mana screw for some reason), Merfolk 1-2 (Coralhelm Commander really shined for him), and Burn 1-2(Needed to see Food Chain and didn't).

Over all I was pleased with how the deck ran and I did cast Emrakul like 5 times without the help of Food Chain. So much fun for me. The one thing that still puzzels me though is the games were I couldn't see more then 1-2 mana sources the entire game.


Hi,i am new to the forum but i read a lot before register:) after that i would like to ask how this deck can manage combo,that are faster that us...i play 4 thorn in sb but in my opinion it isn't a good much up,your opinion?

thx

I pretty much don't worry about Storm Combo. It's a bad match-up I'm not going to waste SB cards on a match where they can win before I can play my hate. I pretty much consider this match an auto loss and will try to combo them ASAP and hope they don't count to 10 before they die. My SB right now has served me well and is geared toward beating Counterbalnce decks and the like since it's probably the most played archtype right now in Legacy.


I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but what advantages does this deck have over the traditional elves combo?

I feel it's because you don't have to look for a ton of pcs to win and not mention it's fun as hell. You need Food Chain to combo out, or a few Elves in play and you can still hard cast Emrakul or go aggro. I did all of the above today.

EDIT: I did bring in the Warcallers in the Merfolk match-up to help the "Lord War". Can't remember what I took out but I pretty sure it was a mana dork, Acolyte, and a Priest.

[kicks_422]

You're running the blue Myojin in the MD? I tried it and wasn't impressed. I'd much rather have the black one.

[Brushwagg]

You're running the blue Myojin in the MD? I tried it and wasn't impressed. I'd much rather have the black one.


Yes, because when comboing out I'd ratherr draw more cards to keep going then have them discard there hand. I bring in the Myojin for Storm/Non-Reanimator SnT decks (Shelldrazi) and maybe Landstill if I saw it.

Another thing I'm working on is getting Quirion Ranger into the deck. As for right now I've cut 2x Priest for 2 of them.

Here's why:

I've noticed the 1x Forest, 1x Llanowar, 1x Priest hands are the weakest the deck can have. While it seems awesome it turns out to slow you down because the Priest is more often then not going to die before you can activate it.

Where as I've had some really explosive starts with Quirion Ranger and not getting "Time Walked" on turn 2.

Also Quirion is able to give a good amount of mana by Untapping a Arch Druid or Priest for the non-Food Chain games. I was thing of Symbiote, but it doesn't help the early game and really isn't needed in the combo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Myojin of Night's Reach is nearly worthless most of the time when you're fully comboing out. If you're dropping Emrakul anyway it usually won't matter.

Where Myojin shines is when you're going off turn 2-3 with just enough gas to get to eight or so mana, either because of discard or counters or just a bad draw. At the very least Myojin is going to wipe out their hand and buy you a lot of time to try and get to Eldrazi mana or get a horde on board.

This is also the gameplan against most combo decks, incidentally.


On a related note, I'm sad to say it but I think Joraga Warcaller has to leave the board. I'm going to up the Colossus/Caller of the Claw count to 4 each. The deck's real problem seems to be the Counterbalance-Top lists with Firespout. And Chameleon Colossus is the fantastic card against both of these that Joraga Warcaller isn't.

[Brushwagg]

On a related note, I'm sad to say it but I think Joraga Warcaller has to leave the board. I'm going to up the Colossus/Caller of the Claw count to 4 each. The deck's real problem seems to be the Counterbalance-Top lists with Firespout. And Chameleon Colossus is the fantastic card against both of these that Joraga Warcaller isn't.

I have to disagree with taking the Warcallers out of the board. The deck needs more"Lords" when facing Merfolk. It's hard for them to stop you from comboing yes, but you can't mull every hand you see aganist them to find a sub par Food Chain hand.

Firespout is a huge problem yes, but I can't see weakening another match-up to help one. If your meta is full of Spouts then I guess I would probably go that route.

[Q 221]

I've fallen in love with this deck, it's a great mix of aggro and lightning-fast combo, and people are often unfamiliar enough with it to make poor decisions. However, I'm currently trying to decide between the transformational sideboard TIBA originally posted, and the more traditional sideboard Brushwagg is using.

I love the idea of being able to completely shift up strategies to cause even more poor decisions g2, but I am somewhat concerned that the transformational SB doesn't address some of the major issues the deck might face, such as the UB Merfolk lists that will have Perish as well as Engineered Plague post-board, giving them a nasty edge against both the combo and aggro strategies.

I'm sure both of you have tested both forms of sideboard at one point or another: why did you pick the way you did?

[Brushwagg]

why did you pick the way you did?

I found in testing and playing tournaments that this deck can already go aggro if needed and then just combo by drawing Food Chain. I hardly won any games when I took Food Chain out. Also I felt the deck really needed a way to answer problem enchantments and artifacts that didn't cost 12. I will admit that Firespout/Perish can still be a problem, but thats what Warcaller and Caller of the Claw are for.

I'm also testing out -2 Preist for +2 Quirion Ranger. I haven't played enough games to see if the change has worked or not. The reason I'm tring out Ranger is for the hands that have 1 mana dork and 1 forest Food Chain hands. I found priest to be to slow in these type of hands since it's going to be turn 3 to cast Food Chain, not to mention Priest is going to die more times then not before you tap her. I might drop a mana dork for the 3rd Ranger depending on how testing turns out.

[Q 221]

Hmm, that's an interesting approach, I'll have to try it out. The only problem I might have with running Ranger is the number of times we get the one-landers you mentioned versus the number of times you don't get a Food Chain and attempt to hardcast an Eldrazi: in those situations, Priest shines, since even if it gets countered or eats removal, that's one less to stop an Archdruid, Warcaller, or a topdecked Food Chain that suddenly ends the game. I've managed to mess with control decks a lot by using Priest to bait out counters/Swords and then dropping nastier threats once their hand thins out. Quirion Ranger just doesn't have the same "kill me now!" imperative.

[Brushwagg]

The only problem I might have with running Ranger is the number of times we get the one-landers

It happens more then you think or I would like to have happen. Alot of the hands are Mana Dork, Forest, Food Chain, Priest, Stuff to go nuts and I don't see another mana source until it it's too late and the Priest is some where other then in play. I'm not saying Ranger is a fix all and I didn't cut all the Priests for it I'm just saying in alot spots I really want to see Ranger more then Priest.

I do see the concerns you have and I really haven't had the time, due to work, to test Ranger out that much. But I've gotten some very explosive starts using Ranger that would not have come if it were a Priest.


attempt to hardcast an Eldrazi:

Ranger untaps Archdruid or a Priest.


Quirion Ranger just doesn't have the same "kill me now!" imperative.

Not as much as Priest or Archdruid I agree with you there.

[Q 221]

It happens more then you think or I would like to have happen. Alot of the hands are Mana Dork, Forest, Food Chain, Priest, Stuff to go nuts and I don't see another mana source until it it's too late and the Priest is some where other then in play. I'm not saying Ranger is a fix all and I didn't cut all the Priests for it I'm just saying in alot spots I really want to see Ranger more then Priest.


*nods* I'll have to see how often those two situations come up. I'm not actually sure that the comparison between the two types of hands doesn't favor running the Ranger, I was just bringing up the comparison situation where Priest is much stronger.



Ranger untaps Archdruid or a Priest.


Right, but you have to have an Archdruid or a Priest stick for that to work. A lot of decks that will have you go this route run spot removal or counters, and if they take out your Priest or Archdruid, the Ranger doesn't give you much of anything, whereas the extra Priest in its slot would force your opponent to have two counters/kill spells in order to shut you down. If they have answers, they can pretty much let Ranger sit, you might get a couple extra mana out of it, but probably not much else. Priest, on the other hand, they basically have to remove, since it significantly speeds you up in the slow games by giving you mana off your card-advantage elves.

[kicks_422]

Does the new Elf Lord fit in here? It's practically THE alternative win condition if you ask me. Protects your guys from sweepers for a turn, then makes them huge for the alpha strike on your turn.

[Q 221]

I'm not sure alternative win condition is really the right word: you can't activate it with Food Chain, so you're not going to be doing anything like triple Overrun instead of Emrakul.

He's kind of nice utility: allows your creatures to survive Firespout, chump-blocks, that sort of thing, and he certainly can come in handy with messing with combat math. That being said, he's essentially a dead card when we're going for the conventional combo plan, aside from the +1 mana every creature gives. He'd only be useful if we were going for aggro beats, which at least in my experience doesn't happen a whole heck of a lot, and in those situations, I'd much rather just drop a Warcaller, since it works continuously and can scale up if you have additional mana available.

[Brushwagg]

@Ezuri: Not sure if it's going to fit this deck. The regeneration is nice. I think Warcaller is the better bet for the SB though since he is castable with Food Chain and provides the bonus. Where the Overrun can't be activated with Food Chain mana. I think it will fit in the other Elf Combo easier then it will fit in here.

[Eseph]

I've missed this deck, I used to play it as somewhat of a gimmick, as it could never really be competitive, but it was always a blast. The new list is looking pretty damn strong though, and I'm looking forward to putting this back together.Just a couple of thoughts from my last time through this deck:

I used to run a white splash (wood elves, savanna, Enlightened Tutor) as an alternate search engine for Food Chain, as well as the some of the beaters (Sundering Titans, Brass Herald, etc). But with the new win-cons I can assume this is going to be outside of the deck's needs.

What happened to Deranged Hermit? He was always a strong alt win card, as well as a nice speed ramp from 5 to 10 mana, I guess he's just not necessary given the amount of mana production we have?

Also, I always found Leyline of Lifeforce to be my MVP board card, Stealing many a game 2. Also Furnace Dragon is just pure shenanigans in the Affinity/Stax Matchup.

[Brushwagg]

I used to run a white splash (wood elves, savanna, Enlightened Tutor) as an alternate search engine for Food Chain, as well as the some of the beaters (Sundering Titans, Brass Herald, etc). But with the new win-cons I can assume this is going to be outside of the deck's needs.


I've looked at White but not for Enlightened Tutor. Tutor really isn't needed since if you don't draw Food Chain your aggro plan isn't all that bad. Plus you have enough draw to dig up Food Chain.


What happened to Deranged Hermit? He was always a strong alt win card, as well as a nice speed ramp from 5 to 10 mana, I guess he's just not necessary given the amount of mana production we have?

Hermit isn't needed at all. It's very rare you run out mana and it's not needed as a win condition any more.


Also, I always found Leyline of Lifeforce to be my MVP board card, Stealing many a game 2. Also Furnace Dragon is just pure shenanigans in the Affinity/Stax Matchup.

@Leyline: I've thought about it but it's uncastable off Food Chain and for it to be really useful you need to mull to you see it. I've been using Gaea's Herald and it's been working out for me so far.

@Furnace Dragon: I think this fits in with Ulamog. It's nice and all but it's a huge amount to cast and it's not usable with out Food Chain.

[Eseph]

Like I said, all thoughts from previous time spent with the deck. I wouldn't discount Leyline out of hand though. More often than not I brought it in, as well as a somewhat transformational board, and simply dropped Food Chain and a couple pieces of fat. Leyline doesn't fall prey to Counterbalance, or Chalice of the Void, and can't be countered on turn 0. While it's true you can't fetch up the leyline after the fact, you can still hard cast it very easily if you didn't stick a hand with it. I tried the herald last time around, and simply found it lacking in comparison. But to each their own I guess.

I've put together a list, though it differs from the OP due to availability of cards, and slight preference in card choices. I'm looking forward to testing the Original list, but for now I'm enjoying what I've put together:

12 Forest
2 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills

4 Food Chain

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fierce Empath
3 Wood Elves
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Bloodbraid Elf

2 Joraga Warcaller
1 Brass Herald
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

The splash is slight, and incredibly easy to keep working, thanks to both Food Chain, and Wood Elves, and the Bloodbraids provide an alternative form of CA, with the possibility of just casting a FC for you.

[Brushwagg]

I'm pretty sure your going to want to move the Warcallers to the SB, cut a Wood Elf and get LLanowar Empath in the list.

I would like to see how your testing turns out. Also do you have a idea of what is going in the SB??

[idraleo]

I think that i'll never cut out Myojin to play Kozilek. Annihilator is cool, but Myojin enables the posdsibility to go off, it is our favorite target when we play Fierce Empaths. I agree that Quirion Ranger is a powerhouse in the deck, i've started playing a couple of this chick and is cool to see how it enables very fast comboing and gives consistence to the deck.

[Brushwagg]

I think that i'll never cut out Myojin to play Kozilek. Annihilator is cool, but Myojin enables the posdsibility to go off, it is our favorite target when we play Fierce Empaths.

Well I play 1x Myojin of Seeing Winds and 1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. But I have to say my number one target for Feirce Empath is Brass Herald. It only costs 6 and provides a nice boost, in mana and fills the hand, in the middle of combo or starting out. More often then not your going to get Elves to keep going or have them in hand to use the 7 mana on.

I wouldn't cut Kozilek because I have won games with him because of the annihilator.

[SpeedOfDark]

I'm not really familiar with the practical issues of the combo... but if you can usually end up with a few creatures in play (opposed to 1 giant fatty), summoner's pact would be very strong while comboing off. If paying the cost on the next upkeep is no issue at all, then a hand with -1 creature +1 pact is strictly better than a usual hand. however, you would probably only want to play one of them during the combo, so maybe a 3 of instead of 4.

If 3 pacts were included, then regal force should probably be one of the fatties, because then you get another nice alternate win condition (without food chain):

titania/archdruid (8) + pact/regal force (4) = draw 5-7 cards, which will usually mean win in 1 turn if you drew food chain, or win in 2 turns with aggro if you didn't.

PS: awesome deck, strong card choices :)

[Brushwagg]

@Pact: The issue is a great deal of the time you only have Emrakul in play after you finish the combo. Also Pact really isn't needed because of the amount of draw and cantrips in the deck, not to mention the combo turn is usually turn 2. Plus Fierce Empath is the better tutor for the deck since your looking for fatties and not green creatures. As for Regal Force again the number of creatures in play when comboing isn't enough to warrant playing it. I play Myojin because it counts permanents and not just creatures.

Pact and Regal fit the other combo elf deck because the creatures stay in play and are not removed for the engine.

[SpeedOfDark]

@Pact: The issue is a great deal of the time you only have Emrakul in play after you finish the combo.

Yeah, well if that happens too often (1 emrakul at the end and nothing else), then indeed there is no way around it, and pact should not be included in the deck, no matter what. I can't really say more, cuz I have never tested.


Plus Fierce Empath is the better tutor for the deck since your looking for fatties and not green creatures.

Wether fierce empath is better or not isn't really important, because you can always pact -> fierce empath -> fatty. Thanks to fierce empath, pact gives you access to all the creatures in the deck. In fact, if fierce empath is significantly more important to the combo than the majority of the other elves, then he is more of a point in pact's favor than against it, since it gives you 7-8 ways of getting him instead of 4.


As for Regal Force again the number of creatures in play when comboing isn't enough to warrant playing it. I play Myojin because it counts permanents and not just creatures.. Pact and Regal fit the other combo elf deck because the creatures stay in play and are not removed for the engine.

Indeed, from the looks of it regal force is only okayish in the combo, and as you guys have concluded, it probably should not be included in the posted lists. However, if pacts were included, then it becomes more attractive for a decent alternate win. And alternate wins are definitely important in this deck since you have only 4 copies of your combo card and your aggro fallback is acceptable at best.

But as I said earlier, it will all come down to whether you can finish the combo with emrakul + a few mana elves. If this cannot be done consistantly, then pact is out of the question.

[kicks_422]

Why don't you actually try testing the deck first before making such suggestions? It's kind of annoying for people to suggest a card and try to defend it when they acknowledge themselves that they ahve never tested the deck.

[idraleo]

Well I play 1x Myojin of Seeing Winds and 1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. But I have to say my number one target for Feirce Empath is Brass Herald. It only costs 6 and provides a nice boost, in mana and fills the hand, in the middle of combo or starting out. More often then not your going to get Elves to keep going or have them in hand to use the 7 mana on.

I wouldn't cut Kozilek because I have won games with him because of the annihilator.

I've initially tried Kozilek because of his colorless converted mana cost, but most of the the times he gaves me few needed cards. When i'm doing my combo, Myojin works better because it always let you draw from 4 to X cards, and then is easyer to rip off Emrakul from an Empath or to overwhelm the board. I agree that the best target is Brass Herald, that guy kicks ass and is necessary to start combo out. But i'm pretty sure that i'll play the lonely Myojin as the combo draw final engine. Anyway, that's not a decision that is better in all circumstances. Sometimes drop a huge colorless fatty that could sweep out some permanent when he attacks is nice too ^____^

I've got to improve my sideboard ability, is not easy to understand the MU where is better to keep the combo in and when not. How do you side against the other MUps? That's the list i'm currently playing:

// Lands
16 Forest

// Creatures
3 Llanowar Empath
4 Multani's Acolyte
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Fierce Empath
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
1 Brass Herald
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Myojin of Seeing Winds
3 Quirion Ranger

// Spells
4 Food Chain


// Sideboard
SB: 1 Myojin of Night's Reach
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Joraga Warcaller
SB: 2 Caller of the Claw
SB: 1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
SB: 2 Gaea's Herald


The sideboard 12 cards only, i'm pretty sure that i won't play Steely Resolve as it stops completely the Quirion ability, that card seems a moreover by my opinion, but i could miss some passage...

[Brushwagg]

My current SB is:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaea's Herald
2 Steely Resolve
3 Joraga Warcaller
2 Caller of the Claw
1 Terastodon
1 Myojin of Night's Reach


CounterTop W/O Firespout

-1 Myojin of Seeing Wind
-3 Priest of Titania
-2 Fyndhorn
-2 Multani's Acolyte

+3 Gaea's Herald
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Steely Resolve

I hear why take out Priests? Well I've found that Priest normally gets countered or STP is played before I get to use it once. Also Preist kind of makes Firespout better since it needs a good amount of Elves to really give you some mana.

W/Firespout

-1 Myojin of Seeing Wind
-4 Priest of Titania
-2 Fyndhorn
-2 Multani's Acolyte
-1 Food Chain
-1 LLanowar Empath
-1 Fierce Empath

+3 Gaea's Herald
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Steely Resolve
+3 Joraga Warcaller
+2 Caller of the Claw

The first SBs are before I added Quirion Ranger for 2 Preist. I might add one Priest back in and take out a Fyndhorn.

Merfolk: +3 Warcaller
-1 Mana Elf
-2 Multani Acolyte

I use to not board in anything but I've run into lists and games where Coralhelm Commander and other lords beat me up pretty good. So Warcaller comes into help the "Lord War".

Zoo: +2 Steeley Resolve
-2 Multani Acolyte

You need to watch for Pridemage but other then that combo them.

Random Matches: See what they're playing. If you see Black be ready for Plague and or Perish (Caller, Grip, maybe Warcaller) etc..

*Ichorid: Nothing. Race them.

*Storm: Race them

*Reanimator: Race them.

*I explained the last few matches a few pages back. Basically what it boils down to is I'm not going to make my deck slower or hurt my chances to win the matches I'm going to see the most of for these ones. Also these decks can win before you see your hate. My suggestion is to mull until you see a combo hand or fast aggro hand. Not the best plan but your not going to see a huge amount of these decks.

While I'm on SBs I might be looking into Vexing Shusher in the Herald spot. I'm not sold on the Leyline of Lifeforce because it costs 4 or has to be in your opening hand and it's not castable off Food Chain, which makes it another blank. However Shusher can also be another Blank on Messengers but LLanowar Empath can flip it and it's Castable off Food Chain. Not to mention it can protect Food Chain. I'm going to test it out for the control matches and see how it works out.

@Kozilek:Again I'm not really going to cut him because he still draws you 4 cards countered or not and I side out Myojin in a few matches because I can't hard cast it like I can and have hard cast Kozilek.

[Brushwagg]

Well another disappointment last weekend 2-3 drop. I'm starting to get frustrated because I know this deck is stronger then it's last 2 big event records.

Round 1: Enchantress: 2-1. Game 1 I have the goods go for it turn 2. My Messengers were kind of bad (common theme for the day) and I miss add my mana. I get to 14 mana with Emrakul in hand no other cards. So I just scoop for being a moron and probably not coming back. Game2: Can't remember if I Food Chained Emrakul or hardcasted him but I got it into play and ended the game. Game3: I went aggro.

Round 2: WGB Rock??: Can't totally rember this round but I remeber Knights and Goyfs. I think one game I tried comboing but the Messengers came up empty. Life totals were G1 I was at 7 he was at 9 and game 2 he was at 11 and I died at 6. I had a hard time digging up Food Chain this round.

Round 3:Carl he is a Syracuse player playing New Horizons: He mulled to 5 game 1 and kept a no lander. I ended up comboing out with him at 18. Game 2: I went the play some elves and cast Emrakul. He shows me 2-3 Krosan Grip and a STP??

Round 4: Goblins w/white for Disenchant and STP: Not sure about game 1 I died at 10 nad I think I tried combing this game and my messengers came up empty. Game 2: I think I started to combo, he disenchants my Food Chain. I get another and I must of comboed out because his life total stops at 13. Game 3: I go for the combo again he disenchants the Food Chain and then goes nuts on me. I remember that his Ringleads were just as bad as my Messengers.

Round5: Vengevine Survival: Game1: He plays a and followed by Survival I play turn 2 Food Chain and Emrakul ends it. Game2: He wins at 19. He has a busted hand and I'm at 11 then dead thanks to 2x Vengevine 2x Rootwalla. Game3: One of the best games I've had in a while. I mull my first hand and keep one with some dudes and a couiple of Grips. He goes turn 2 Aquamoeba into Vengevine Rootwalla. I go to 16 play some dudes we go back and forth. I end up at 1 with a pretty good board Emrakul in hand and only able to produce 14 mana. But I have a huge board including Kozilek that summoning sick vs. 1x Rootwalla. I feel good about this. I swing put him to 12. He fetches for Tropical. Draws for turn it's Survival. He discards Wonder and I grip the Survival. He swings and I die to a fling Lizard.

Had I known that there was going to like 0 to 1 Counterbalance and like 0 Firespout in the room and as much Vengevine as there was I would have totally changed my board to something like this:

3x Grip
2x Steely Resolve
3 x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Terastodon
3x Warcaller
1x ???

[Q 221]

I've been playing around with the deck a bit, took it to a couple small tournaments at PlayTheGame in Syracuse.

Last week's tournament report, a pretty good start to the deck's run: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19620-Finals-with-Elf-Combo-at-PlayTheGame

This week, didn't do quite as well, but I got a little more experience with the deck, and got to see a few more matchups.

First, the list:

17 Forest
4 Priest of Titania
4 Multani's Acolyte
3 Llanowar Empath
1 Brass Herald
1 Myojin of Seeing Winds
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fierce Empath
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Food Chain
SB: 1 Myojin of Night's Reach
SB: 4 Joraga Warcaller
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
SB: 3 Gaea's Herald
SB: 3 Caller of the Claw


Pretty standard list, trying Ulamog in place of Terastodon, and leaving Steely Resolve out just because I don't have them.

Round 1: Brushwagg with UGW Vengevine
I was wondering if I'd run into him at some point while I'm in Syracuse, and turns out I get paired against him first round!

Game 1: Neither of us really do much for a few turns: I play some guys, he drops Swords on a guy. Eventually I drop a Food Chain and combo out at 8 life.

Game 2: He flips four Vengevines into play and drops me to 8, but I combo out the next turn. For some reason, I become convinced he's holding a Mindbreak Trap and try to go off around it by dropping Kozilek before Emrakul. This fails, and I end up with an Emrakul, a Brass Herald, and a Llanowar Elf. I start my extra turn and realize it wasn't the Mindbreak Trap that kept him from scooping, it was the fact that he had 16 power on the field and enough permanents to keep some of it around. I had to kill him this turn or probably die to Vengevine beats on the next. Thankfully, I had just enough to finish him that turn, and Annihilator took out his blockers.

Lessons learned:
1. Don't psych yourself out around hate, especially hate there was no reason for him to be running. He was running blue, he had plenty of other combo answers before resorting to Mindbreak Trap, which only works against very specific forms of combo versus stuff like Force that answers a lot more.
2. Emrakul doesn't always win games singlehandedly. Yes, clearing the way with Annihilator and 15 damage usually at the very least cripples your opponent and you can just swing in for game the next turn, but it's not a guarantee, especially if they've developed their board state a bit. That being said, there usually aren't blockers left around after Annihilator and a few extra elves can seal the deal.

1-0

Round 2: Bant Aggro.
Game 1 I keep a beautiful hand that has everything I need to blow him out with the combo... except the draw elves. I proceed to draw mana elves and lands for multiple turns while he beats me down. I don't think I made a mistake keeping the hand, as it needed very little to go off and there were a lot of cards in the deck that would have made it possible. Unfortunately, sometimes this just happens.

Sideboard: Decided to side out the Food Chain combo, assuming he would bring in a large amount of combo hate and I'd be fighting uphill. Hopefully his dead hate cards would bog his deck down and I'd be able to win with elf beats. I also put him on Bant Countertop, which generally smashes the combo strategy.

Game 2: He got a Jitte online, dropped Swords a couple times, and beat me down while I was sitting there wishing I could topdeck a Food Chain and just win the game. After the game, I saw his board: all he brought in was Jittes and Paths, assuming my combo wasn't the primary purpose of the deck.

Lessons learned:
1. Don't board out Food Chain. Ever. It can get you out of an extremely disadvantageous board state, and the entire deck is built around it. TIBA originally built this with a transformational sideboard, and I'm not really sure how well that worked, but with this board, there's really no point.
2. Know your archetypes. It's pretty easy to tell if someone's playing CounterTop: they'll usually have a Counterbalance or a Top at some point. But it's possible that I could have figured out he wasn't playing CounterTop, if at any point he dropped something you wouldn't find in a CB list.

1-1

Round 3: GBW Rock.
Game 1: He stalls, and I beat him down with Elves.

Game 2: He rips a Food Chain out with an early Thoughtseize. I start dropping elves to try and get some advantage, but a Perish eventually nukes all of them. He beats me down and I really don't have any way to get back in the game.

Game 3: I open with a beautiful one-lander that smells of sweet Food Chain victory, particularly when he doesn't open with a Thoughtseize. Unfortunately, I then proceed to stall on land drops, and he eventually gets a Thoughtseize and pulls the Food Chain out. His bigger creatures then start ripping through my life total while I draw nothing relevant, and it's over pretty fast.

Lessons learned: I doubted I had a great matchup against this guy, but I almost pulled it out anyway. The deck has a nice puncher's chance: if both people are drawing bad, the abundance of card draw and creatures in the deck can pull it ahead of whatever they manage to drop.

1-2


Round 4: Mono-Black Aggro
Game 1: He opens with Ritual, Duress, Hymn, slicing my hand down. I start building elves, topdeck a Food Chain, and combo out.

Sideboard: I bring in Callers, no way I won't see a Perish game 2.

Game 2: I see a solid hand, but no Food Chains. He mulls down to 5. I open with a Llanowar Elves into an Elvish Archdruid. He lays down an Engineered Plague, one turn too late. I drop a second Archdruid, and Sylvan Messenger. Over the next few turns, I start beating down with 3-power elves, and he doesn't have anything to answer it: his stuff is mostly 2/2s. He doesn't get anything relevant and dies in a few turns.

Lessons learned: The beatdown plan, although I've greatly overrated it, is actually possible. Not worth boarding out the main combo in favor of it, but it can occasionally pick me up a game or two.

2-2


Well, not fantastic, but it could be worse. Priests of Titania were underperforming all day, I'm going to swap a couple out for Quirion Rangers like Brushwagg was suggesting a few pages back, there was at least one time where having a Ranger over a Priest would have won me the game, and I never had a moment where I needed a Priest as anything other than an extra mana.
The sideboard still feels weak, but it's possible I'm just overestimating how much the sideboard really aids the deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, I think the sideboard plan probably helps too infrequently to be really worth a full-scale conversion, and some of those slots should be freed up. Warcaller and Symbiote I think still serve an important function, however. A complement of Gaea's Herald is something else that probably needs to go in there, probably replacing the Colossi.

[Grumpollion]

The new Treasure Mage (see http://tinyurl.com/5wjdd59) could play something of the role of Fierce Empath 5-8. Downsides: He's blue, he's not an elf, and he fetches artifacts rather than creatures. But I could imagine using him to fetch Brass Herald and/or a big robot like Darksteel Colossus.

[Skeggi]

I don't think we need any extra Fierce Empaths. Has anyone checked out Sages of the Anima by the way? Not sure if it'll be win-more. Aren't cards like Viridian Zealot and/or Elf Replica important sideboard cards? Could also consider Vexing Shusher to force Food Chain through.

[Q 221]

Treasure Mage is kind of awesome, actually: I always feel like I could use more Fierce Empaths, as they pretty much guarantee the combo goes off. Unfortunately, it's not an elf, it requires another color (which means that using it in a non-Food Chain capacity is going to be difficult), and he requires you to either run different (read: worse) win cons/card draw to get more than one creature out of him. If he was literally a Fierce Empath functional reprint, I'd be all over that, but he requires jumping through too many hoops in my opinion.

Sages is cool, but it's only really going to be useful mid-combo, which means you need to have 5 mana to spare until you're ready to finish the opponent off. Not too hard a task, but he really only combos with Acolyte and Visionary, since they're the only small elves that draw you cards. It'd be ridiculous with Kozilek/Myojin, but if you have Kozilek and Sages out, I have a hard time believing you're not going to win regardless. He's also five mana, just below the Empath fetch range, so you're not going to be able to use him consistently, and he's got the second-color problem going again.

As far as Zealot and Elf Replica go, I'd rather run Krosan Grip. The times you need enchantment/artifact hate aren't mid-combo, they're before you start going off. There's not a heck of a lot that can stop you once you're going off: the things you have to deal with are stopping you from going off in the first place, Humility, E.Plague, etc.

Shusher might be worth more testing, but he's got a giant "SWORDS ME" sign on him, and most decks you'd want to force a Food Chain through are gonna have spot removal. If he was an elf, he'd be a lot better.

[Skeggi]

Shusher might be worth more testing, but he's got a giant "SWORDS ME" sign on him, and most decks you'd want to force a Food Chain through are gonna have spot removal. If he was an elf, he'd be a lot better.
What other possibilities do we have to force a Food Chain through? Splash white for Orim's Chant? Or should we use stuff like City of Solitude, which seems like a longshot to me.

As a sideboard card against CounterTop, Phyrexian Revoker seems like a godsend.

[Maëlig]

So why exactly hasn't symbiote replaced ranger in the main? I realise it's worse for pure accel or when you're comboing out with food chain but at that point you don't have much use for ranger anyways do you? On the other hand, it gives you protection from targeted removal (and saves key pieces from sweepers) and helps to get the combo set up or simply overrun your opponent by recurring messenger / empath / visionary / acolyte.

[jrw1985]

So I put this deck together and went 2-2 with it at tonight's tournament. I definitely could have played it better. E Plague took me out 1 game after I wasted K Grip the turn before on his Counterbalance when he had no Top in play. Dumb.

R1
I beat Staxx 2-0. Trinisphere T1G1 didn't even slow even matter. The Elves were high enough in casting cost anyway that Trinisphere didn't matter, so i ramped into Emrakul. I sided in Gaea's Harolds and K Grips. Same thing the next game, only I played a Gaea's Harold before chaining off, since he had Chalices. He T1 Trinisphere, T2 Chailce for 2. I T3 K gripped the Chalice then played Gaea's Harold then won easily.

R2
1-2 against Counterbalance. I got locked out G1, Comboed out G2, and G3 ended before it began when I KGripped his Counterbalance only to see him play an E Plague the very next turn. D'oh!

R3
2-1 againt a R/B tempo deck with Vials and Mesmeric Fiends and Ball Lightnings. I comboed G1, almost won with beatdown G2 (which was very difficult for me), and comboed out again G3.

R4
Lost against AggroLoam, 0-2. I kept a pretty weak hand G1, and paid for it with a loss. It's just hard to win when you try to out aggro an aggro deck. It wasn't pretty. G2 I was planning to combo off when my opponent preemptively cast Pithing Needle, calling Food Chain. I then proceeded to do nothing until I was a turn from losing and his buddy looks at the board and says, "What's Pithing Needle calling?" "Food Chain." "Can you DO that?" Then I remembered that Pithing Needle doesn't stop mana abilities. My opponent made a huge mistake when he sided in Needle, and I made a huge mistake when I went right along and didn't bother playing my Food Chain despite the fact that I still could have used it. I didn't bother to pause and think about what Needle actually did. It probably didn't help that his card was foreign to boot, so i couldn't get the visual reminder when he played it. I punted so hard, and lost out to a misplay on his part that became a fucking Jedi mind trick on my end.

Anywho, after playing with the deck my thoughts were...

- The aggro plan is absolutely horrendous. Food chaining into a Joraga Warcaller sucks. You play him with a couple of counters and you're left with no elves to get the bonus from him. Just awful in a field with so much spot removal.

- Elves not having haste sucks. I want SO badly to find a way to make this concept work with Glimpse of Nature so there were actually 2 card generating engines, but I don't think they can be mixed.

- I wonder if the Tribal concept is really necessary. Wouldn't the deck be a lot less susceptible to E Plague and Perish if it didn't rely on a creature base of elves? But can the concept of such a creature heavy deck be playable without a tribal theme?

- I want Fetchlands. Hitting lands with Brass herald and Silvan Messenger was infuriating. The deck could easily support 4-8 fetches, i think.

[Q 221]

- The aggro plan is absolutely horrendous. Food chaining into a Joraga Warcaller sucks. You play him with a couple of counters and you're left with no elves to get the bonus from him. Just awful in a field with so much spot removal.


If you have a Food Chain out, you shouldn't be dropping a Warcaller. You should be chaining into an Emrakul. Warcaller is there to provide 8 outs against an E.Plague, and to turn a weak field of a couple elves into a 2-3 turn clock by dropping him with a counter or two when you don't have a Food Chain. If you draw him mid-Food Chain, drop him for one, pop him for two.

The aggro plan isn't great, but it can pick up a game or two here and there. Those are going to be games where you don't have a Food Chain though.




- Elves not having haste sucks. I want SO badly to find a way to make this concept work with Glimpse of Nature so there were actually 2 card generating engines, but I don't think they can be mixed.


I agree, I don't think there's a way to make a creature base that works with both Glimpse and Food Chain. The Glimpse base relies on cheap elves that can net mana, because you've already got the draw engine in Glimpse. The FC base relies on elves of any cost that net card parity or card advantage, because you've already got the mana engine in FC. They don't really overlap well. In addition, Glimpse expects to have a large number of elves out: FC expects to have 1-2 tops, so your silver bullet cards are going to vary.



- I wonder if the Tribal concept is really necessary. Wouldn't the deck be a lot less susceptible to E Plague and Perish if it didn't rely on a creature base of elves? But can the concept of such a creature heavy deck be playable without a tribal theme?


There's a non-tribal Food Chain deck out there somewhere. The problem is is that there isn't really anything comparable to Messenger/Herald if you're not running a single tribe, and you usually have to run a couple of colors, opening you up to Wasteland issues. And without Archdruids and Messengers, you have a much worse gameplan if you can't push a Food Chain through. If you want to try that out, go ahead, but I personally think it's sacrificing too much for E.Plague/Perish resistance (note that Perish at best slows the deck down a turn, and we have a few outs to E.Plague).



- I want Fetchlands. Hitting lands with Brass herald and Silvan Messenger was infuriating. The deck could easily support 4-8 fetches, i think.

This is interesting. Usually I wouldn't advocate running fetches just for deck-thinning, but your average combo chain goes through like half the deck, and my brain can't quite wrap itself around whether or not you'd actually get a statistical advantage from fetches. At some point someone's gonna have to crunch the numbers, but it's at least worth consideration.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It would definitely be worth it if Stifle didn't exist. If Stifle-based mana denial isn't prevalent in your meta it's probably worth running fetches, but the manabase is so tight that losing a land to Stifle can kill your gameplan.

[lorddotm]

IBA, I'm aware that this has nothing to do with anything, but whenever I read your posts, I always imagine that a Robert E. Lee kind of person is reading it.

[Skeggi]

Skyshroud Sentinel
This card seems like an auto-include for this deck. Has anyone tested it? I suspect in the slot of the 3 Llanowar Empath and perhaps a Sylvan Messenger?

[Pastorofmuppets]

This card seems like an auto-include for this deck. Has anyone tested it? I suspect in the slot of the 3 Llanowar Empath and perhaps a Sylvan Messenger?

Uh, no.
It doesn't do enough when not comboing out to include it in the deck. You need cards like Messenger to set you into card draw elves so you can find Chain.

[igri_is_a_bk]

So have there been any changes to this deck from the opening post, IBA? I'm in the process of obtaining the deck, but I also ordered Quirion Rangers to try to fit two in for Llanowar and/or Fyndhorn. Is it a bad idea to change the list at all though?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Honestly, I've never experienced this phenomenon of wishing I had less Priests of Titania, so I've never really given it a spin.

I would change the initial list sofar as taking out a maindeck black Myojin for a blue, and the sideboard needs extensive work, but that should be meta-dependent.

[kicks_422]

FWIW, I whip this out in MWS every once in a while. The deck's insane, with so many angles of attack. The MD's pretty optimal as it stands, and like IBA said, I just switched the black Myojin for a blue.

Cheapest good deck in the format. :tongue:

[igri_is_a_bk]

I've decided to take out the Myojin and a Forest from the standard list for 2 Quirion Ranger. This is only because my meta is very little combo and Myojin has not been necessary yet. Kozilek has been my choice every time with Empath and then that's enough to win.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I took 3rd place in an 18-man tournament yesterday, beating Zoo, High-Tide and Merfolk and losing to PT Junk/Rock or whatever Hymn/Confidant/KotR deck Kenny Mayer was playing.

Ran 7 mana elves, 4 of each of the card drawers including Llanowar Empath, no Quirion Rangers. My fatties were Emrakul, Kozilek, Brass Herald and Terrastadon, the latter because I wanted a potential answer to annoying permanents that could double as mana acceleration when comboing off. Didn't come up but I felt more comfortable having it. Sideboard I threw together, but was never tempted to switch any of the cards out anyway, even when I was having difficulty.

[igri_is_a_bk]

How come you decided to cut a mana elf, IBA? I probably don't need to tell you, but they are the only way to enable the turn two win, and that seems crucial if you're playing TES or Ichorid.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Seven mana elves is more than enough to get one fairly reliably on the first turn, if they're not playing removal. I simply didn't find running more Melves worthwhile.

Got 2nd at a small tournament yesterday, beating a casual player/first time Legacy player, the Hatfields' green-white good creatures.dec, and a Zoo list with Jittes. Lost to Team America. Went 2-3 at the D.C. SCG Open, although I'mma have to dig up my notes to remember what I played against.

Right now I think the optimal sideboard is;

4x Wirewood Symbiote
3x Krosan Grip
3x Elvish Champion
2x Tangle Golem
1x Gaea's Revenge
1x Myojin of Night's Reach
1x Wurmcoil Engine

Elvish Champion seems good since you need a way to deal with Plagues, and since everyone and their mother runs forests in this format.

[(nameless one)]

Isn't this deck called Darwin's Revenge? Did I miss something?

[igri_is_a_bk]

Right now I think the optimal sideboard is;

4x Wirewood Symbiote
3x Krosan Grip
3x Elvish Champion
2x Tangle Golem
1x Gaea's Revenge
1x Myojin of Night's Reach
1x Wurmcoil Engine



You have to explain the Tangle Golem and Wurmcoil Engine. Are those for games you side out Food Chain? They don't feel like they fit with the deck even if you are going beatdown. Don't you want four Elvish Champion before either of those?

I get the impression that anything that can't be drawn with Messenger or tutored with Empath should be a four-of. Like Krosan Grip.

[bakofried]

Can we see the latest list?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Isn't this deck called Darwin's Revenge? Did I miss something?

I like mixing names up sometimes. I usually refer to it as Darwin's Revenge, yeah.

I recently decided that 17 lands is too many. So here's the list I'm testing atm;

14 Snow-Covered Forests

4 Food Chain

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Brass Herald
1 Terastadon

4 Elvish Visionary
3 Multani's Acolyte
4 Fierce Empath
4 Llanowar Empath
4 Sylvan Messenger

4 Quirion Ranger
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid

SB:

4 Elvish Champion
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Trinisphere
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege

Lord effects are for combating Plagues and switching to aggro mode; Champion for the Forestwalk, since everyone and their mother plays green in Legacy, and Liege for the anti-discard tech. Vanquisher is a beefy dude that will take out a Knight or anyone else in combat, while Trinisphere is for High Tide, Ichorid and other combo decks. The sideboard isn't polished though.

Two cards that are trying to work their way into the maindeck are Wirewood Symbiote and Elvish Spirit Guide, but that depends on what you expect to face.

I definitely wouldn't cut Priests or Archdruids, having 8 Priests is part of what makes Ranger really good here. You could run Symbiotes over Rangers and sneak in Rofellos, though, I suppose, although that seems slower.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I did the same thing after goldfishing the deck. Each time I drew Quirion, I was really pleased to see it and it functions as a land drop if you stick one. But we'll only have Quirion 40% of the games, so I don't know if dropping the mana count to 14 is right. I'd feel safer at 15 or 16. I'm trying it at 15 for now, but I can't imagine us running fewer lands than Ichorid. We still want the second land in each game to cast Priests, Acolytes, and Visionary if our board gets swept or Melfs killed.

Have you noticed how many more Elves you can have in play when you go off with Qurion Ranger and chain into more of them? It makes Regal Force a better option as an Empath target. I'd use these four now, thanks to Quirion:

1 Herald
1 Regal Force
1 Kozilek
1 Emrakul

And my sideboard is different than yours still. Mine looks like this:

4 Krosan Grip - obvious
4 Joraga Warcaller - Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo
4 Xantid Swarm - Force of Will
2 Caller of the Claw - Perish, Firespout, EE, Deed, WoG, E. Plague
1 Myojin of Night's Reach - Dark Ritual

Ichorid has had a resurgence so it might be worth it to include some hate for it. Although you could just try to race them, but Therapy hurts us a lot.

[Augustas]

This is propably most amazing deck in the format for it's price. I've goldfished it a lot, played some games on cockatrice and it's really amazing. The main strength of this deck is that it can function pretty well even without Food Chain. One game I ended up with like 15 elves and both eldrazi without using FC, only because I was able to abuse the hell out of priest with quirions. So I'm really happy I found this thread and I will bring it to a tournament next month for sure. I jsut wonder, does anyone still play it? And I'm really looking forward for the NP titans - if the blue one is not fake, than we will have another I auto-win by myself monster to get out with FC :]

[Deck Dont Matter]

I have really taken a shine to this deck in a the past few weeks but I believe you can take it a step further...I have been seeing alternative version of the deck that splash blue actually to help make the deck go off more consistant.

4x Llanowar Elves
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Fauna Shaman
3x Fierce Empath
4x Llanowar Empath
3x Coiling Oracle
2x Mulldrifter
4x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Quiron Ranger
1x Drift of phantasms
1x Kozilek
1x Emrakul
1x Aethersnipe
1x Myoin of Seeing Wind

4x Food Chain

4x Forest
3x tropical Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Virdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
1x Gaea's Cradle

I found this version to be stronger at digging through the deck and doing a consistant cast both kozilek and emrakul in the same turn to win the game...thoughts?

SB Ideas
4x Xantid Swarm
3x Krosan Grip
3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Duplicant
1x Llawan, Cephalid empress
1x Loaming Shaman (great against mass removal to restart the combo if needed)
1x Sower of Temptation
1x ????

[Augustas]

Well, IMO it relies way too much on Food Chain. Even though I really haven't played with it that much, but a really strong part of the deck is interaction of priest effects and quirion ranger allows some really unfair plays and actually allows to hardcast eldrazi even without FC. And also you don't play ringleader effects, so I really wonder how is it any better than straight up elves. And you also opening yourself to stifle effects, mana denial and so on.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I've been playing Glimpse-Elves more recently, but the experience does make me want to revisit Food Chain; particularly since it's less vulnerable to Mental Misstep. It may still be worse overall.

Like with Glimpse, I think it's a bad idea to rely on the combo though. Elves is and should be, and is best as, a tribal deck like Merfolk and Goblins. Only instead of having the added benefit of counters or creature removal, you have the added benefit of randomly being able to wipe the opponent out on turn 3. But that shouldn't be the only thing you do. You run a lot of dorks, why not have a gameplan that works with just using them to bludgeon the opponent to death? Even if you weaken your manabase for blue you're not going to be able to rely on finding and casting Food Chain.

I do think in retro that 17 land was definitely too much. Also that Quirion Ranger is amazing.

[Augustas]

Completely agreed, that's what I was saying in the previous post. Quirion Ranger is huge, he allows us to keep one landers along with manadork and he allows completely redicioulus plays with titania effects, ramping to 10 or 20 mana, I actually kicked Warcaller 16 times one game. Sideboard can easily switch this deck 180, from my testing vanquisher seriously delivers, it draws opponents attention mroe than lords or titanias. But well, there isn't too much to improve, I'm currently testing GSZ instead of LLanowar Empath and for now I have some really mixed feelings about it. It's just seems kinda slow

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The biggest problem with Food Chain over Glimpse is that you can use the latter to set up (assuming you're not running Summoner's Pact because it's terrible). Fizzling with Food Chain only leaves you with a few dudes in play by contrast.

[Augustas]

So i've tested a pair of Genesis Waves and it's completely nuts. Getting it for four is pretty easy and it yet is another game-winning mana sink.

so this is what I'm currently testing, nothing really different, but I really hate Llanowar Empath. He doesn't dig deep enough, is really expensive for such a weak body and he's only good with Food Chain going. So if we want to make this deck really operate even without Food Chain, the way to go is obviously abusing Priest effects with Qurion, then go to town with absurd amount of card advantage. And again, Genesis Wave IS good with and without FC. Wave for 13 or something, get the rest of mana for Emrakul along with an army of elves. It's just that awesome =)
15 Forest

4 Food Chain
2 Genesis Wave

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Brass Herald
1 Terastadon

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Multani's Acolyte
4 Fierce Empath
4 Sylvan Messenger

3 Quirion Ranger
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid

[bakofried]

Could you clarify the statement "good with and without FC." It can't be casted with FC, so that seems redundant.

[Augustas]

Well, it helps when you don't have a food chain and a bunch of mana. It can put the Food chain to the battlefield, it triggers all the CIP effects of other elves and it puts bodies to exile for mana. So the point is that you have more uses for 8 priest effects along with quirion ranger untap.

[Augustas]

I took it to a local tourney, but sadly only nine player showed up. Anyway, I t4'd

First round was against my good friend with SI, so it was kinda a double let down :/

Game one I get turn 1'd, nuff said

I had exactly zero cards against combo in my SB, so I just didn't even bother

Game two he mulls to four and I have the nuts

Game three, again, Tendrils for 20 after mulligan to six.

Second round was against Mighty Quinn

Game one he silenced me six times, but it was a rather huge misplay on his part. But we can't blame him, he didn't know how exactly my deck worked. Anyway, I won that game with an archdruid, mana elf and empath.

Game two I side in three viridians, three k grips so none of his hate was able to stop my 1/1s and 2/2s.. :D

Round three was against merfolk

Game one he mulls to 4 and this buys me enough time to FC, but fizzle to draw gas from kozilek, but he's enough to win the game.

Game two he mulls to six, my food chain gets countered, but I succesfully resolve like twenty elves off priest effects and once again resolve a kozilek.

Round four ID

T4 against Zoo

Seriously, the guy is the best player I've ever played against in my life.

Game one I have absolutely everything I need, resolve like seven cantrips, chump for days and nothing can't find the damn FC. So there's a point in the game where I have to fire sylvan messenger and the first card he reveals is a FC. So I die horribly...

Game two isn't even a game, I mull to six, keep some elfs and lands, everything dies in two turns and I don't stretch it.

Anyway, the deck is really fun and what is the most important it's really really cheap and competitive. As far as I know one deck even made a day two in GP Providence. Maybe that person can share a report or something?

BTW I have already posted my decklist somewhere above if anyone is interested, except I started running fetches.

[1maarten1]

Anyway, the deck is really fun and what is the most important it's really really cheap and competitive. As far as I know one deck even made a day two in GP Providence. Maybe that person can share a report or something?

BTW I have already posted my decklist somewhere above if anyone is interested, except I started running fetches.

Where did you read that it made day 2 at the GP? :O Anyway Ill get testing this again, not sure about Genesis wave yet, tho it seems fine.

[Augustas]

Just check day two breakdown, you'll see a single FCE :]

After playing this deck a lot, I started to see a lot of it's flaws. Unlike Goblins, we can't swarm the field effectivly with beaters, because there's only one lord who usually doesn't stay long enough on the field. So, we don't have a strong aggro plan aka Plan B. The Plan B is hardcasting stuff with Priests which is another huge flaw because they don't live long enough too.

Obviously, if FC resolves, things usually will get out of hand if not disrupted, if a priest sticks, again, it opens lots of possibilities to get things going. But that's the problem - things has to stick on the field for atleast one turn. So the solution might be adding Enlightened Tutors, but I don't think it would do much, because - it would search only for Food Chain, so this opens a lot of unkeepable hands + weakness to mana denial. Another solution is Mental Misstep. But this would require to decrease the amount of creatures - either mana ramping or cantriping ones, which is not good because we need both in our openings. I'm dying to make this work, but it's kinda frustrating without other opinions :/

Anyway, am I the only one in this forum who actually plays this deck? ;<

[Brushwagg]

Nope, I play this deck on occation, not as much as I use too though (I got 95% of the deck foiled out).

To deal with some of the weaknesses of the deck I went 2 ways. Back when Counterbalance was big and and Firespout saw alot of play I used the SB I posted a few pages back. Steely Resolve and Caller of the Claw go along way with spot removal and mass removal. But as the meta went away from these decks I went with something like this.

4X Natural Order
1x Progenitus
1x Terastodon
2x Caller of the Claw
2x Krosan Grip

I can't remeber the rest off the top of my, I'm at work now, but it gives you an idea.

[1maarten1]

Just check day two breakdown, you'll see a single FCE :]

After playing this deck a lot, I started to see a lot of it's flaws. Unlike Goblins, we can't swarm the field effectivly with beaters, because there's only one lord who usually doesn't stay long enough on the field. So, we don't have a strong aggro plan aka Plan B. The Plan B is hardcasting stuff with Priests which is another huge flaw because they don't live long enough too.

Obviously, if FC resolves, things usually will get out of hand if not disrupted, if a priest sticks, again, it opens lots of possibilities to get things going. But that's the problem - things has to stick on the field for atleast one turn. So the solution might be adding Enlightened Tutors, but I don't think it would do much, because - it would search only for Food Chain, so this opens a lot of unkeepable hands + weakness to mana denial. Another solution is Mental Misstep. But this would require to decrease the amount of creatures - either mana ramping or cantriping ones, which is not good because we need both in our openings. I'm dying to make this work, but it's kinda frustrating without other opinions :/

Anyway, am I the only one in this forum who actually plays this deck? ;<

Actually, THERE IS A REPORT :D! It is very alike the build posted a page back with blue.
link: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22049_Climbing_The_Food_Chain_A_Grand_Prix_Providence_Top_64_Report.html

[Augustas]

yeah I've seen it. I was a little bit dissapointed with the list as I would like to stick with straight elf route, but anyway, huge congrats to him for bringing Food Chain to day light.

[1maarten1]

yeah I've seen it. I was a little bit dissapointed with the list as I would like to stick with straight elf route, but anyway, huge congrats to him for bringing Food Chain to day light.

I also put my doubts with splashing for blue strictly for brainstorm&oracle, since muldrifter is something that can be played quit easily with a mono green version aswell. The fauna shaman + Vengevine package does seem like an awesome addition to be honest.

[Augustas]

indeed it does. looks liek the addition was pushing it all day long. But atleast my list is really really tight. I'll share mine, maybe others run some secret tech too?

8x mana elves
8x priests
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Sylvan Messenger
4x Fierce Empath
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Multani's Acolyte
3x Llanowar Empath

1x Brass Herald
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn

4x Food Chain

8x Fetches
7x Forest

[Koby]

Pretty cool read. I've been thinking about resurfacing VV plan again, and this seems like a great fit into the deck. I'll take this out for another spin next time I go to test heavily. I remember why I shelved the deck in the first place - Counterbalance.


8x mana elves
8x priests
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Sylvan Messenger
4x Fierce Empath
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Multani's Acolyte
3x Llanowar Empath

1x Brass Herald
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn

4x Food Chain

8x Fetches
7x Forest

Your list looks very stock, like Page 1 Post 1 stock. I haven't tooled around with other packages in the same shell, but I'm 100% believer in Plan B with green "combo" decks. Usually that involved NO/Pro package, or in this metagame - Vengevines.

I'm kind of curious why Brian didn't maximize the Coiling Oracle option however. It's nearly identical to Elvish Visionary which is hands down amazing for this deck.

[Augustas]

And what's your point with my list being stock? I didn't try to rebuild it, but for some reason Quirion Ranger wasn't included in the original build, and in my playtesting, he was the actual Plan B with an active Priest and he also allows turn two kills with only one land.

Anyway, I really don't see how it is possible to fit Vengevine engine into mono G version, but maybe someone has some ideas?

[1maarten1]

And what's your point with my list being stock? I didn't try to rebuild it, but for some reason Quirion Ranger wasn't included in the original build, and in my playtesting, he was the actual Plan B with an active Priest and he also allows turn two kills with only one land.

Anyway, I really don't see how it is possible to fit Vengevine engine into mono G version, but maybe someone has some ideas?

Cut 4 mana lords and cut 3 llanowar empath? Vengevines are a much stronger aggro plan then lords, and fauna shamans filter way better then empaths? The only thing is we would have to look into something that you could grab with fauna shaman that could grab food chain!

[Koby]

Actually, THERE IS A REPORT :D! It is very alike the build posted a page back with blue.
link: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22049_Climbing_The_Food_Chain_A_Grand_Prix_Providence_Top_64_Report.html

I put together the list and ran a few tests with it against some decks. Here's the results:

Vs UB faeries - can't beat counterspell on Food Chain.
Vs WG Maverick - hard pressed to beat Jitte maindeck with tutoring.

I'm partly sure that the deck is infinitely complex to play correctly, and probably requires the sideboard to make certain matchups winnable. As it stands, the maindeck is really polarized between Vengevine plan, or combo plan. I'm also certain that Brainstorm in this deck makes decisions about 1000% harder. I may also be valuing Coiled Oracle too highly.

[Shax]

Running blue in this deck is a mistake.
Having basic lands as your mana source will win you more games than it will throw away.
Why is this deck not considered a bigger threat than combo elfs with glimpse? Mental Misstep hoses that deck compared to IBA's list on page 7.

This deck beats control decks that neglect mass hosers. Decks that do run mass hosers are usually (Pernicious Deed, Perish,Pyroclasm ). All other decks except Storm and those Mass Hoser type decks we outright win. The hosers decks will still struggle because we can recoup our resources faster than any deck in Legacy. Did I mention winning on turn 2 is busted for a Combo-Aggro deck?

Decks that want to counter our plan A guys (Mana Elfs, Food Chain) cannot handle the plan B( Draw Elfs, Deck Manipulators) If they do, then something is wrong. I have had games *against control decks* where I have mulled to 4 and just pulled out Food Chain with a card drawer and said GG.
This deck wins against Counterbalance. Our guys are usually 2 drops or 3 drops. Our win enchantment is a 3 drop.
Eldrazi literally are the best win condition for this deck, bar none. You drop them even if you do not have Food Chain combo going but a few mana elves and you win. (More so with Emralku, but Kozilek does the dirty work.)

The Sideboard I have made for the deck was to change out IBA's sideboard except for..
SB:
3 Trinisphere
4 Elvish Champion
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Mental Misstep

Jorga Warcaller can replace Elvish Champion if you are hungry for kills against non-green decks that have beats.
The Elvish Champion is something I have never boarded in, not once and I have done over 9 hours of testing against randoms. Mindbreak Trap and Mental Misstep are key. Trinisphere is for Combo, as with Mindbreak and Misstep.

Misstep is the best sideboard card that will slow the Blue player down by not letting them hit StP, Sensei's Top, or Brainstorm. Fighting Mental Misstep wars is fun too over you mana elfs or *key card*. This decks weakness was already said that is loses hard to combo if they can out race yours or you do not draw hate or the disrupt you. The field hosers not so much, but are effective for a minute.
(I always board out 2 Llanowar Empath, and the 2G Empath guy that finds your Eldrazi and big creatures.) Boarding out for combo is a bit tricky and I usually leave in my mana elfs and take out all the empath ones and visionary type ones execept one.

NEVER, EVER, board out Sylvan Messanger. This is the best green four drop in magic.
You could arguably drop the Forest Walk Lord in the board for more hate against Combo, and have Dredge hate/whatever to boot. More combo hate if you wanted. This decks major losses in testing are when I draw a fresh 7, see no land, mull to 6, see no land, mull to 5 and have to usually keep. I still win those games a good bit of the time too.

Merfolk is in our favor. Dont ask me why, but with that sideboard it is in our favor. Misstep is obv target for Vials. Our mana elfs block their stuff, and we can usually out chump them. Standstill sucks, but if they run out of counters you can usually topdeck a elf that gets your draw/manipulation going again to wreck face.

Stoneforge Mystic decks that do not run Sword of Fire and Ice are bad against us. Junk is bad against us. ANY Deck that trys to our card advantage us is bad against us. Wasteland is a blank card.

Our plan B is stronger than what people think. No deck can go 1- for -1 with all of our Elfs and manage to survive. This deck is GOOD and definatley should be higher on peoples radar.

The secret tech is being explosive, but having some consistant ways to do this and be resillient. I know this deck in and out and it feels boring to play sometimes because of its power level unless someone is struggling to go 1 for 1's or board wipe me all game. Against combo I might sweat a bit because of Mulligans/Draws. All in all having dudes that make mana and swing is the best tech. Quarion Ranger is most likely the best tech in the deck. Stops Rishadan Ports plans on keeping your one land tapped down, and is the combo engine for mana. Serious, use 4 Quarion Ranger in WHATEVER build you run. Ranger is indespinsible.

Ruckus shelving this deck because of Counterbalance means he did not run this right. I shit on Counterbalance pretty hard running 24 cards that have CMC 3 and up. Thats almost half the deck folks. Thats more than enough to handle Counterbalance and Top. Not including Mental Missteps out the board, and our Elf lords for green variants. Counterbalance will not always have that two drop on top neither, so your free to out card advantage them for that turn and make some beaters. Do not run Vengevine in this deck. Running basic lands have got me sold.

[sillyandrew]

@shax: can we see the list that you're running? if you know the deck "in and out," i'd be really interested to see what you've settled upon.

--------

i think the above posts have all made it pretty obvious, (without actually coming out and saying it) that the reason you'd want to run food chain of glimpse of nature, is that the deck doesn't get totally rocked by counterbalance and mental misstep. with those two decks out of the way, the only real blue we have to worry about is merfolk, (since most dedicated MUC decks are going to have a hard time with creature swarm based aggro, IMO).

that being said, it begins to sound like this deck is pretty inherently anti-blue, without really trying to be, where as glimpse of nature builds aren't so much. that, right off the bat, should be enough reason to pick up the pile.

that's just my two cents, for what it's worth.

--------

i have a few questions/critiques of the deck, but please know that i've never played this deck before. i'm looking into picking up the cards i'm missing to start messing around with it.

1. fierce empath vs. fauna shaman. are these two interchangeable? fierce empath tutors up a single beater, then gets eaten by food chain for four mana. fauna shaman can tutor up two creatures (albeit at the cost of two others, probably cantrips/mana elves) and then gets eaten for three mana. is that a negligible difference? or is the card advantage/extra mana better than the ability to tutor up two beaters off a single creature? is fauna shaman only better in versions of the deck that run vengevines?

2. how dis-synergistic is food chain to the back-up aggro plan? does it end up being too hard to swarm out while utilizing it for mass-mana? or, does it become fairly obvious early on in the game whether you're opting for an aggro win vs. a combo win? is that ever a problem?

--------

most of the maindeck seems pretty solid/set in stone, minus a 4th singleton beater/utility and the number of llanowar empaths. that being said, focus turns to the sideboard:

1. glissa sunseeker in the board as a singleton tech against brown/grey win conditions?

2. a two/two split of joraga warcaller/evish champion in the board to mix and match vs. decks that carry/don't carry green?

3. krosan grips feel like an auto include in every legacy deck that plays green.

so maybe something like:

1x glissa sunseeker
1x gaea's revenge
2x joraga warcaller
2x elvish champion
3/4x krosan grip
3x combo hate of preference
2/3x graveyard hate of preference

edit: would viridian zealot make more sense than krosan grips, since they're easier to fetch out of the library, don't get buried by messengers, and can help support the aggro plan while they're waiting on the battlefield for targets?

--------

i'm just a few minutes away from ordering all of these card online, so i look forward to future discussion!

[Augustas]

Fierce Empath is the most important card while comboing. He fetches you your card draw and win condition the same turn you land Food Chain and he's the card you are fishing with all the carddraw. I've tried to fit the vengevine plan into the elf list, and it just didn't work for me. It makes comboing with Food Chain succesfully really hard, because the only thing you can afford cutting is carddrawing elves, and that's the cards that actually ramps you to hardcast eldrazis. If the food chain plan fails, there's always eight Priest effects which allows you to generate insane mana amount, but you know, this is legacy, elves are small and untapping with that Priest might be harder than it looks.

Also, Quirion Ranger is a must. He's the turn two kill enabler most of the time :]

[Koby]

Ruckus shelving this deck because of Counterbalance means he did not run this right. I shit on Counterbalance pretty hard running 24 cards that have CMC 3 and up. Thats almost half the deck folks. Thats more than enough to handle Counterbalance and Top. Not including Mental Missteps out the board, and our Elf lords for green variants. Counterbalance will not always have that two drop on top neither, so your free to out card advantage them for that turn and make some beaters. Do not run Vengevine in this deck. Running basic lands have got me sold.

With all respect, the tests I ran were against Supreme Blue (StP, Goyfs, Firespout, Force of Will, etc). This is a monster matchup for any mono-green Elves deck. Unless you can resolve Food Chain early, there is no chance that you will beat them ever. Luckily, this flavor of CBtop has met the way of the Dodo bird, so that's not a big concern today as it was about 6 months ago.

[Shax]

@sillyandrew The list I am running is IBA's list off page 7 of this thread with the sideboard I fixed.

1.Fauna Shaman is just a bad slow card for this deck unless you want to run Concordant Crossroads, otherwise stick with x4 Fierce Empath.
2. There is no dissynergy between Food Chain combo plan and aggro combo plan unless you fizzle mid combo. Heres how I play the deck.
Drop mana guys/mana/Quarion Ranger. Drop Food Chain asap. Food Chain gets countered, drop draw guys/deck maniuplators. If you never had Food Chain, drop those guys after you drop mana plan. Drop Preist of Titania early as possible , or only if you have less than the three mana for Food Chain and you have it in hand. Drop Preist of Titania if you think they have Daze/Spell Peirce, so you can pay for it and win with Food Chain.
Elvish Archdruid is there for when you do not have draw guys or mana guys and have two or three dudes out there or whenever. He usually draws hate or counters by himself so he is very good. He wins you games by being your lord.
If you food chain and fizzle, you still will usually have recouped your investment somewhat and have a guy or two on the field still. Relax you usually will draw another draw/manipulator to start the combo again.

SB Answers:
1. Glissa is slow, let them do what they wanna do usually. Viridian Shaman does the same thing but faster.
2. Jorga Warcaller is good for when you know they do not carry Mental Misstep and you leave mana guys in the maindeck to pump him in multiples. The lord is just the equal of Lord of Atlantis versus other green decks.

3. Krosan Grip is good versus Counterbalance, which this deck does not have that much of a problem against. If people are using Sneak Attack or whatever then sure use it, but I would rather have slots for Mental Misstep since it is the best card in Legacy right now.

Honestly sillyandrew my biggest problem was combo, but if you think you can handle it with just x3 hate go ahead. I have had this x11 hate I bring in (Misstep, Mindbreak, Trini) and still not see them in my opening hand and lose. I do not think graveyard hate should really be that much of a concern, but if you want it I would suggest cutting a Trinisphere from my board and a Elvish Lord or two to make room for x2-3 Graveyard hate.

@rukcus,'' the tests I ran were against Supreme Blue (StP, Goyfs, Firespout, Force of Will, etc). ''

The Goyfs are big dumb beats that you can chump with your card draw guys and still not be in the hole Card Advantage wise. Swords to Plowshares is mitigated by Mental Misstep, and them going 1 for 1 with your elfs is a bad idea. Only time they caused my trouble is hitting specific Preist of Titania or Elvish Archdruid to stop my mana. I still won those games.
Firespout is one of the board wipe cards I mentioned earlier. You will want to try and stick lords or Food Chain asap. If they are running it as a x3-4 of it will be a little bit of a rocky match since that card is WoG at 3 mana here most of the time or it will miss your elfs because of Lords. I actually want my opponent to use Force of Will to -1 CA themselves most of the time here since it really is just stalling for another 1 for 1 answer or dumb beater that I can combo around anyways. Them being down a card is satisfying since they are poking a stick at a hoard of elfs.

The good thing about Firespout is that it is harder for them to get R than it is G for it.

Honestly the less combo there is and massive field wipers there are the stronger this deck is. Yesterday I had to play someone using Enlightened Tutor /thopter foundry with engineered plague in the board. Safe to say I took both games because g1 I combo hard on him and g2 Elvish Archdruid pump negates plague.

[Prkchpsndwiches]

What are we siding out when Elvish Champion goes in? Definitely building this deck tonight, cards all came in the mail today! :)

[Shax]

Depends what deck. If your boarding in the Elvish Lord you will usually board out something like Llanowar Empath, or Fierce Empath. 95% of the time I take out 2 Fierce and 2 Llanowar Empaths. They provide card advantage, but not the draw power of Visionary or Multani for Food Chain wins. They are not Sylvan Messanger or Brass Herald. They do not make mana.

They both are fine being at 2 each in the deck since Llanowar is better when your going off and so is the latter. I almost always board out the Llanowar Empaths if I need more stuff to come in. Leave atleast one Fierce Empath to win with.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I never settled on a sideboard I really liked. I really wished the deck could make Living Wish work, actually. What's your sideboard look like, Shax?

[Shax]

I never settled on a sideboard I really liked. I really wished the deck could make Living Wish work, actually. What's your sideboard look like, Shax?

The Sideboard I have made for the deck was to change out IBA's sideboard except for..
SB:
3 Trinisphere
4 Elvish Champion
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Mental Misstep

From my post near the top of this page.

Trinisphere in 3's is the near optimal number to hose the combo decks on turn two while we are on the play. (Turn one Mana Elf, next turn land this.) Then we win, or atleast I have every time I have casted Trinisphere in a combo game.

4 Elvish Champion is your tech along with the Trinisphere and the Elvish Champions really are swingy. If they work and pump your guys to swing through forest you usually win. I have only lost one game with the lord having an effect on it.

4 Mindbreak Trap is the hose combo decks.

4 Mental Misstep. (This is a secret, but its the best card in Legacy and maybe my sideboard.) This usually comes in every blue match, and about 70% of my matches anyways. Maybe even more than that. Basically if they wanna thoughtseize Food Chain, you kick them in the nuts and win the next turn. If they want to Vial shit, you bring the hammer down. They play Dark Rituals? Not today Ad Nauseam. Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares? HA! This is our catch all and it does this fairly well.

Against the top tiered decks we have something to bring in, and against our worst matchup combo we basically play a dredgeish type game of let me find my sideboard cards. (Unless we get lucky and turn two combo them)

I think Living Wish is not really needed. The creatures you have are redundant and you just want three mana for food chain. Using stuff like Gaea's Cradle is good for non-wasteland decks in this format and if you like drawing 7 cards with that being your only land.

Blue has a uphill battle with this deck and sideboard. All of their 'fair' counters are less useful unless stopping Food Chain. I think its harder on the blue player though considering they waste their Force of Will on my Llanowar Elf game two for my turn one play. Because we have such a good Blue matchup I think focusing on our Combo game should be a goal, and this is why I have 11 cards to bring in on TES decks. Against Show and Tell, if they let us put Food Chain into play turn one and pass to us I hope they expect mercy.

One thing we have going for us is humiliation. When players see a Fyndhorn Elf dropped they think they get a easy round compared to seeing a Sensei's Top being spun. The only hole in our plan I have found is KROSAN GRIP. But no one runs that shit anymore and we can still use Food Chain in response. That is one thing I have been proud of Food Chain. Its effect will not be dodged.

Honestly Food Chain Elfs are better than Glimpse Elf in a post Mental Misstep metagame. I would sleeve your list up with my Sideboard and take it to a tourney expecting postive results unless I have some dastardly bad poop hands.

This decks price tag puts all others to shame for what it is capable of. (Taking 1st)

[Prkchpsndwiches]

I goldfished this deck. I playing the same deck as shax/IBA except +1 forest, -1 Llanowar Empath. Haven't gotten to play it in practice unfortunately. It really can win out of nowhere. Food Chain is the nuts! As I was goldfishing I answered my own question and agree that Empaths are first to come out. Vs Combo you say you bring in 11 cards. You take out 7 empaths then what else? J/C

[Shax]

Ok my usual sideboarding options are. (For my deck)

-4 Llanowar Empath
-4 Fierce Empath
-3 Multani Acolyte

for the x3 Trinisphere, x4 Mental Misstep, x4 Mindbreak Trap

Fierce Empath is good when you have food chain out or are grinding games, Llanowar Empath is just a 4cc Slyvan Messanger searcher and Multani's secondary effect is very bad for a game against a combo deck. This smears your consistancy a good bit but you still have your core and mana producers. For your case sandwhich just board out a extra Elvish Visionary. Since combo games are usually done quickly you want at least one of those cards in your opening grip. Mindbreak Trap especially.

I have noticed that Quinn, the Eskimo decks hose us if they run very bad cards like Linvala, the Silencer, and Aura of Silence, or Ethersworn Cannoist against us. All of those hose us pretty hard and those combined with Wrath of God effects means they steal matches.

Besides that, the deck preforms very well and the only changes I would consider would be making Llanowar Empath at 3 and making Multanis Acolyte at 4. The difference is minor and I am not sure it matters much since Empath digs deeper and does more. This deck is unkind with mulligans. You want to keep your 7 at all cost.

[Augustas]

So how do you expect to win with Food Chain or dig for your sideboard cards when you basicly side out more than half card drawing elves? Ofcourse I was in only one tournament with this, but my SB plan against combo would be to cut the slow stuff - either Priest or Archdruids. Maybe it's just me, but IMO sideboarding out draw engine and leaving food chain sounds like a bad plan.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Agreed. If anything I'd think you'd side out the combo entirely (-4 Food Chain, -4 Fatties, -4 Fierce Empath, -3 Acolytes and just go ahead and bring in the Elvish Champions too) and play aggro-stax. It's not like they're bringing in removal for Priests, and with those guys untapping on the reg you should be able to swarm them pretty quickly.

[Prkchpsndwiches]

Agreed. If anything I'd think you'd side out the combo entirely (-4 Food Chain, -4 Fatties, -4 Fierce Empath, -3 Acolytes and just go ahead and bring in the Elvish Champions too) and play aggro-stax. It's not like they're bringing in removal for Priests, and with those guys untapping on the reg you should be able to swarm them pretty quickly.

I like this plan.

IBA:

You mentioned Wirewood Symbiote in your first post. Have you tried this at all anymore? Seems really good, untap a priest or archdruid and bounce back a card draw/search dude. I know the deck is tight for spots as its is.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm actually amused that I've become a comparative Symbiote skeptic, since literally the first deck I ran 1.5 tournaments with was Elves running Symbiote + Sylvan Messenger (and Ritual of Subdual!)

I think the card is really good but I don't think it's necessarily insane, and I'm cautious about what to cut for it. After going down to 14 lands it's probably correct to make room somewhere for the 4x Symbiote main, since it gives you such a strong game, especially in this deck versus say, Glimpse-Elves. My first inclination is something like -1 Fyndhorn, -1 L. Empath, -1 Acolyte, -1 Something else. I'd be careful of trimming the card drawers much further than that though.

[neosatus]

I ended up sticking the Symbiotes in the sideboard, thinking that when transitioning to aggro elves, having 8 untap effects on top of 8 priests is what will allow you to chain through your deck without Food Chain. I also replaced Elvish Champion with Joraga Warcaller for the transition, since I expect to have a lot more mana and kicked once it functions exactly like a Elvish Champion without Forestwalk, but I think the option of alpha striking for the win out weighs the lack of Forestwalk.

SB:

4x Joraga Warcaller
4x Wirewood Symbiote
3x Trinisphere
3x Mindbreak Trap

[Augustas]

I'm brainstorming with this propably stupid idea. I'm goldfishing it a lot and so far it goldfishes turn three.

8x mana dorks
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
3x Fierce Empath
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Sylvan Messenger

1x Emrakul
1x Kozilek

4x Food Chain
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Summoner's Pact

15x Forest

Obviously it's just a sketch and it already faces some obvious problems like all - mana elf hands without business or all - mana elf hand with Food Chain which then also does nothing or Sylvan messenger also hitting either nothing or mana elves invalidating the whole chain. But it's kinda easy to abuse Glimpse during mid combo with Heritage mana and then you can basicly summon your whole deck in the same turn. Anyway, what do you guys think?

[sillyandrew]

i've been goldfishing and playtesting an awful lot lately, and the more i do, the more i think that elvish archdruid is a wasted slot. priest of titania does a lot more work for me, simply because she hits the table a turn earlier, and i typically only need to tap her once in order to combo out.

elvish archdruid really becomes useful in terms of the aggro backup plan, as i've very rarely used his mana ability (unless i'm in a situation where the combo is either totally buried in the deck, or it's been countered/dealt with) to much success. combo (emrakul) wins are much more common for me than swarm wins, so i'm really wondering if it'd be better to test another elf in his spot.

additionally, quirion ranger has become less and less useful the more experienced i become with the deck. the most work she ever seems to do is untap a mana elf a single time before it gets eaten by food chain (on turn two or three) for a grand total of two or three extra mana. i've dropped her count from four to two, and have toyed with those two spots being arbor elves because i find that turn-two emrakuls are only really possible with opening hands that contain forest, forest, mana elf, food chain, and three other elves.

i've also been really impressed with how useful brass herald is, and i've been thinking about putting a second one in the deck. consider this: you're starting to combo, and you're holding two fierce empaths in hand. my first empath with almost always fetch the herald, who refills my hand, so i can combo that much harder into emrakul and secure the win. the herald does an excellent job of pushing more mana into your mana pools so you can drop an eldrazi earlier than you should be able to, and often reveals a sylvan messenger or a llanowar empath so you can keep digging for more fuel. six mana is pretty easy to hit fairly early in a combo chain, and he's a relevant card whether you combo through him, or leave him in play after he hits. i like him more and more every time i play.

--------

for reference, here's my current list:

4 llanowar elves
4 fyndhorn elves
4 priest of titania
4 elvish archdruid

2 quirion ranger

4 elvish visionary
4 multani's acolyte
4 sylvan messenger
4 fierce empath
4 llanowar empath

1 brass herald
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 terastodon

4 food chain

4 misty rainforest
11 forest

[neosatus]

i've dropped her count from four to two, and have toyed with those two spots being arbor elves because i find that turn-two emrakuls are only really possible with opening hands that contain forest, forest, mana elf, food chain, and three other elves.

You do realize this I hope:

Turn 1: Forest > Mana Dork
Turn 2: Tap Forest > Ranger > Tap Mana Dork > G > Bounce Forest w/ Ranger, untap Mana Dork > Play Forest again and tap > GG > Tap Mana Dork again > GGG > Play Food Chain > gg

Thanks to Ranger you only need 1 Forest, so she acts like 4 extra forests that you happen to be able to get 2 mana out of with Food Chain. She deserves a spot for this reason.

[Prkchpsndwiches]

You do realize this I hope:

Turn 1: Forest > Mana Dork
Turn 2: Tap Forest > Ranger > Tap Mana Dork > G > Bounce Forest w/ Ranger, untap Mana Dork > Play Forest again and tap > GG > Tap Mana Dork again > GGG > Play Food Chain > gg

Thanks to Ranger you only need 1 Forest, so she acts like 4 extra forests that you happen to be able to get 2 mana out of with Food Chain. She deserves a spot for this reason.

Totally agree. Taking out Quirion Ranger is the second worst thing you could do other than cutting down on Food Chains. Play 4 and never cut it. :)

[Augustas]

An updated list - so far beats most of the stuff in it's path.

1x Wirewood Symbiote
3x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Heritage Druid
4x Priest of Titania
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Fierce Empath
4x Sylvan Messenger

1x Regal Force
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Food Chain

13x Forests/whatever combination of lands/fetches/cradles you like

So, the reasoning - Heritage Druid taps for additional mana, saves up mana to cast FC leaving six mana to keep going and it is overall a really helpful card to ramp up to stuff.

Green Sun's Zenith - it's usually a turn two play to get a Priest or something, but it's never a dead card, even when comboing with FC, because we have either priests or heritage :) And it cuts off a lot of randomness this deck often suffers, as we can't tutor anything at all.

Regal Force - what I really don't like about ringleader effects is when you are forced to cast them without having a FC. And they usually hit the damn thing all the time. Regal Force sometimes might not net you more card than a Brass Herald would, but he often does with the help of Heritage Druid.

After some playtesting this deck still completely dodges Mental Misstep - atleast it isn't that backbreaking. It also can completely ignore CotV.

My sideboard currently is looking like this :

Viridian Shaman 3x
Krosan Grip 4x
Mental Misstep 4x
Summoning Trap 4x

The latter is just amazing in FC Elves. One game went like.. Forest - Llanowar Elves < mental misstep < k summoning trap into Emrakul. Turn one. It almost always will replace the countered elf with something good, so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be played in a completely blue dominant metagame. So that's my updated take on this deck and I'll be bringing it to a tourney next week :)

[Shax]

Summoning Trap is a card I can agree with use especially in a Big Bomb Creature heavy list. I think it is a serious contender for slots in any sideboard mine included.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I have been reading this thread and noticing people are reducing the number of Empath targets under actual Fierce Empaths. This is a fundamental mistake in deck building as 4 Empaths should have a minimum of 4 targets. You'll topdeck Empath targets and cantrip into them and you don't want to fizzle the CA from a single one. It may only happen once in twenty games, but consistency is a key strength for our deck. As for those targets, I'm pretty sure I'll stick it out with these for the time being.

2 Brass Herald
1 Kozilek
1 Emrakul

Multiple BH is not a bad idea at all. He's a perfect fit, and in multiples with Archdruid, makes the beat down plan stronger. He'll add more threat density, while still being the pseudo-Messenger we love him to be.

I'm a firm believer that this deck should have 14-15 Forest, 4 Food Chain, 4 fatties, and everything else should be Elves. I wouldn't even play Genesis Wave in the main. That's a perfect sideboard card against blue though, in my opinion.

[Brushwagg]

Well Zach Tartell borrowed my deck last night and made top 4 in a 21 person local. He could probably go more into matches but I thought I just trow the result in here.

[igri_is_a_bk]

After reading this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22049_Climbing_The_Food_Chain_A_Grand_Prix_Providence_Top_64_Report.html), I'm very interested in adding Fauna Shaman and Vengevine. The deck is already positioned to support both easily and it will really diversify our ways to win the game. As always, space is really the biggest problem, but I think we could really cut back on some of the redundancy with the Shaman in the deck. We probably wouldn't need 8 Priests anymore, for example.

What are your guys' thoughts? I'm going to try it online since I don't own Vv any longer (but they have got WAY down in price :cool:)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't think I could find room in my build, but I also added 4 Symbiotes because they're really good in this meta. So if you cut those I guess, and a Lord here, ranger there... I dunno, feels more like a sideboard plan if you run into the asshole playing Firespouts.

[igri_is_a_bk]

After playing the deck on and off for six months, I'm really sick of being the least interactive deck on the planet. We're not the fastest combo deck in the format, so interactive cards don't seem too slow, namely Fauna Shaman. She doesn't directly interact with the opposition, but gives us the tools to do so. Vengevine is actually really sick in this deck, even with the combo. Going turn two Shaman means you can have one Vv in play turn three and still combo into Emrakul if you draw the Food Chain. The vines are just as good at attacking for 12-16 a turn as they are making 5, 10, or 15 mana.

13 Snow-Covered Forest

4 Food Chain

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania

4 Fauna Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fierce Empath
3 Llanowar Empath
4 Sylvan Messenger

3 Vengevine
3 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Brass Herald
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Side
4 Joraga Warcaller
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Vengevine
1 Duplicant
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Having Warcaller and Shaman + Vv package to bring in for the combo was successful against Merfolk, which is my only test of its strength so far. Viridian Shaman can be abused with Symbiote for recurring artifact destruction. In my meta she kills Batterskull, Jitte, and Ensnaring Bridge, importantly.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Semi-necro.

Has anyone tried this deck in the post-MM meta? I want to play this again because I need a break from Dredge, but I'm worried about the amount of combo I'll run into. We still beat fair decks as we always have, but this faster meta is putting a damper on my confidence. I'm thinking the list needs a speed boost, and the only card I can think to add for that purpose is ESG that stays in tribe. Does that even help, though?

The other possibility is to add a tutor to find Food Chain, but unless there is a green tutor I don't know about, that would require a splash. Black, white, or blue would each offer different ways of finding Food Chain, but is it worth it?

[Brushwagg]

Turn 2 is too slow? This deck isn't going to go turn 1. I've always thought that this deck just races combo. I'm not sure what your plan is with ESG. As for a tutor if it's not a creature then you really don't wanto to run it.

[igri_is_a_bk]

No, turn two is not too slow. Turn two is great and I'd like to increase the probability of it happening. You have to be realistic about the chances of that happening though.

Forest
Forest
Food Chain
Llanowar / Fyndhorn
Visionary / Acolyte
F. Empath
Sylvan / L. Empath

That's essentially what our opening hand has to be and our opponent can't have a counterspell, and, depending on the combination of those cards above in our hand, we may have to get lucky off the top. Those odds aren't great, essentially boiling down to the fact we can't have more than 4 FC and we have no way to find them. That's why I'm wondering if there is any way to consistently clock our opponent second turn, but maybe it's not in the cards. In well over 100 goldfishes, I've turn two'd less than 10% of the time, and if you say otherwise (as I really have played this deck a lot), then teach me how to cheat too. It may not be possible, and this deck simply may not be viable, but since I have the cards to play it, I'm interested in exploring other avenues.

All the other combo decks have a positive match up against us. Every single fucking one. That's because all the other combo decks run protection, or are faster, or simply play trump cards against us. Take the most popular combo decks, as an example.

TES or ANT can always play Duress before FC can come down and they can turn one us. Reanimator plays 8 counters, plus Jin, Elesh Norn, and Blazing Archon - all of which shut us down entirely and we can't do anything to stop it. All of these decks can either win outright or secure the win by turn two, same as us, only they do it more consistently and with protection.

ESG may not help at all. I remember reading IBA's original post and thinking that ESG doesn't do anything unless drawn in multiples, so maybe it's not the answer I'm looking for.

[1maarten1]

Here you go Igri:


There was a FCE thread by TheInfamousBearAssassin in N&D, but it seems to be gone now. I think that this is most people's alternate deck choice, because it can win, while being a relatively cheap option. I think it's safe to say FCE is not a tier 1 deck. Although, knowing that we are tier 1.5 or tier 2 doesn't mean we can't optimize the deck.

For those unfamiliar, the way the deck win is by using Food Chain multiple times to ramp up to fifteen mana and Emrakul. Alternatively, the deck can GSZ into Fauna Shaman and use Ranger and Symbiote to help fetch out Vengevines and go beatdown.

Lands (13)
12 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

Enchantments (4)
4 Food Chain

Sorcery (4)
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Creatures (39)
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Vengevine
2 Fauna Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fierce Empath
1 Brass Herald
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Llanowar Empath
4 Sylvan Messenger

Sideboard
3 Joraga Warcaller
3 Pithing Needle
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Krosan Grip
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Umezawa's Jitte

The weakness of this deck is obviously that the individual cards are pretty bad. Little green horde beatdown is pretty tough to do with only four lords (well five including Herald). Usually, if you're in a bad situation, you try to stall the ground, rather than attack. You want to buy time to draw another Food Chain or GSZ. There are always going to be exceptions, but this has been my experience most of the time.

Against any tempo deck without white (oh hey, all of them), Vengevine is a game-winner. Their removal can't keep him down and their small creature set can be blocked forever, except Delver. But he's a seven turn clock, unless they draw multiples, and we can win faster than that. They'll probably have some burn tossed in there, but that hits my creatures more often than my face.

The other benefit of Vengevine is that it is a mana spiker. A naturally drawn Fauna Shaman can make the combo turn a lot easier by dumping even a single Vine in the yard. Remember, each Vv is five mana and it's sometimes the correct call to eat them.

Opposing combo is rough. Most legacy combo has protection, we don't. Being based on creatures has its advantages and disadvantages. Against the combo archetype, more of our disadvantages show. We have to just dump our hand as quickly as possible, but it's usually a turn slower than necessary. I've tried Gaddock Teeg in the board to help here, and he was trumped most of the time.

There are 30 elves in the list, as of now. That's on the lower end of the spectrum. I'd be more comfortable with a few more, but I don't want to cut Vengevine. I'm very fond of that card's ability to nuisance the opponent.

Fierce Empath is probably the most important elf while comboing, because he's both a card drawer and a finisher. I wish I could fit a piece of utility for him to find, like Aethersnipe, but space is tight. I can't cut any more elves, and the non-elf cards are pretty good.

Aethersnipe just reminded me, Evoke is incredible with Food Chain. Since we can use FC mana to Evoke creatures into play and then sac them for their converted mana cost plus one means we net a lot of mana. Snipe is an upgrade from Deranged Hermit because we get both a mana spiker and utility. If Mulldrifter cost 6, it'd be an auto-include in the deck. Just saying.

The sideboard is all over the place. I've found application for each card, but are they optimal? I kinda doubt it. Mono green has some shitty sideboard options, that's for sure.

I know it's not brand-new, but people enjoy this deck. It's very fun and can be competitive. My thoughts were a little random in this OP, but I just wrote them down as they came.

The trick is to set the 'show threads' to 1 year and not to 100 days, then you will get the extra pages. This thread was on page 8.

[1maarten1]

Does anyone know what number of 'fatty's' should be ran, in order for Summoning Trap to be effective? It seems like a viable sideboard option now that we lost Mental Misstep. Eventhough counterbalance is not a prevalent now so it might be slightly underwhelming.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Wouldn't you want like 8 big guys? But, Summoning Trap doesn't look worth it to me. It fills up your deck with non-creatures and doesn't guarantee you'll hit any fattie at all. Even if you do hit one, unless it's Emrakul, you're still open to spot removal. I'd rather just side in Vengevine and take them down with unrelenting hasted beats.

One change I've made recently is the removal of Llanowar Empath for Multani's Acolytes. Symbiote + Visionary/Acolyte is just the best damn draw engine elves can possibly hope for. It finds Food Chain faster than Empath and for a more reasonable cost. While providing protection that extends to half of the deck. I'm pretty convinced that four Symbiote is correct at this point.

13 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Food Chain
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Multani's Acolyte
4 Fierce Empath
1 Brass Herald
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Sylvan Messenger

Sideboard
4 Vengevine
3 Joraga Warcaller
3 Pithing Needle
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte

This version operates much better without Food Chain than even the Fauna Shaman build did, because I increase my Elves count. That makes my Priests and Messengers significantly better and pushes the swarm strategy forward a bit. It's also faster than the Shaman version, since I'm not spending two turns trying to dump a few Vv in the yard.

I'm not sure this deck can be tier 1 ever, but that's okay. It can steal matches from anyone with a good draw and puts pressure on everybody it faces to perform or get run over in card advantage and in mana.

[1maarten1]

funny I actually have made the exact same decision to cut Llanowar empath for Wirewood symbiote's (i already had acolyte's).

On the tier 1: no it won't be tier 1, it is very like glimpse elves in a way. Tho the Mental Misstep ban was actually bad for us, and good for the glimpse deck so yea the deck isn't in its ideal spot right now.

However I keep playing it since it is incredibly cheap and super fun to play. (And it will win a bunch of games too, while doing that)

[Brushwagg]

Well here's something I'm giving a try. I haven't picked this deck up in a bit, but this list is goldfishing even more fun.

4x Llanowar Elves
3x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Wirewood Symbiote
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Priest of Titania
3x Multani's Acolyte
4x Elvish Visionary
2x Fierce Empath
4x Sylvan Messenger
1x Brass Herald
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4x Food Chain
4x Glimpse of Nature
13x Forest

I hope to get some testing in with the list. It seems like it's going to be more fun. Having most of the deck being able to draw cards is just awesome.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I think Symbiote + Visionary is a better draw engine than Glimpse because of our higher average creature cost. You're just using Glimpse to refill your hand and find Food Chain, right? It'd be different if you had Heritage Druid + Nettle Sentinel to really go crazy with it, but you can't use those and Food Chain in the same deck because you'll draw a combination of both engines, which doesn't work right. I'd include GSZ instead of Glimpse since it would add 4 additional copies of over 50% of your deck. Most importantly, it is Symbiote and Visionary 5-8, which means you don't have to use as many Acolytes. It's too good not to use, if you ask me.

[Brushwagg]

I think Symbiote + Visionary is a better draw engine than Glimpse because of our higher average creature cost. You're just using Glimpse to refill your hand and find Food Chain, right? It'd be different if you had Heritage Druid + Nettle Sentinel to really go crazy with it, but you can't use those and Food Chain in the same deck because you'll draw a combination of both engines, which doesn't work right. I'd include GSZ instead of Glimpse since it would add 4 additional copies of over 50% of your deck. Most importantly, it is Symbiote and Visionary 5-8, which means you don't have to use as many Acolytes. It's too good not to use, if you ask me.

I have to disagree. The only thing differnt here is Food Chain. Glimpse cuts way down on fizzling (I consider a fizzle not casting Emrakul) since everything is a cantrip. The other thing is Glimpse helps fix the hands that don't contain Food Chain and you either draw into it or keep going and end up with a bunch of elves in play. Test it out at least.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I have to disagree. The only thing differnt here is Food Chain. Glimpse cuts way down on fizzling (I consider a fizzle not casting Emrakul) since everything is a cantrip. The other thing is Glimpse helps fix the hands that don't contain Food Chain and you either draw into it or keep going and end up with a bunch of elves in play. Test it out at least.

We have enough draw-elves, as is. We're actually cutting down on those, because we have an overabundance. You are as well. I mean, you're down to two Fierce Empath :confused:. No wonder you feel like you need Glimpse to win.

Symbiote + Visionary is a better draw engine over multiples turns. Each turn, provided you have four mana, you can draw two cards with these creatures. No doubt you can draw more than two cards a turn with Glimpse, that's granted. This is probably Glimpse's best utility: digging when you don't have Food Chain. Still, it's a one-shot effect and is more of a gamble. I still like having GSZ to fill the gap in my hand, since it does more than fetch my draw engine.

I'll try it, I guess. I know Glimpse has been suggested before, and I thought it was already tested, but I'll do it for myself just to be sure. I'm not certain you've tried the GSZ version though. Nobody has discussed this deck since that card was printed (wow, that's way too long).

[1maarten1]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130088&stc=1&d=1334549290

Seems decent, maybe in a build with GSZ in it?

[igri_is_a_bk]

He's not an Elf, so that puts him as a no from me. He competes with Ezuri, who I think is better with 7-8 Priests and 4 GSZ.

I've been playing a list with Cradles, and I can say that it's wrong to exclude them from Food Chain lists. They make your draws so much more explosive, and as mana hungry as this deck is, they make a lot of sense.

13 Forest
3 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Food Chain
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fierce Empath
1 Brass Herald
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Eternal Witness

//

4 Joraga Warcaller
1 Loaming Shaman
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
1 Viridian Shaman

Eternal Witness has been good so far. It gets back Food Chain, usually, but has also retrieved Quirion or Symbiote with an active Priest.

The Ezuri has also been good when you awkwardly can't dig up Food Chain. It takes 9 mana to GSZ and activate, but that's a cinch with Cradle to help.

What do you think of this list?

[Brushwagg]

I always felt Ezuri was a SB option at best for this deck. Warcaller fits in better since you can use the Food Chain mana to pay Kicker. You do lose the Trample, but if your playing Warcaller or the like your probably on the beat down plan already so you more then likely have more creatures then your opponent does.

A suggetion for your list is to cut down on the lands and up the mana dorks to the full 8 and get the 4th Quirion Ranger in the deck as well.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Cavern of Souls
Land
As ~ enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
: Add :1: to your mana pool.
: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast creature spells of the chosen creature type. If this mana is spent on a spell, that spell can't be countered by spells or abilities.

Well this doesn't suck :laugh:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

No, it surely doesn't.

[Vacrix]

Cavern of Souls looks like it will be a beast in MUD. You can name Golem and drop Lodestone Golem, Sundering Titan, or Blightsteel Colossus without having to worry about running into Force. If you are going to go for the Forgemaster line of play, you can just name Construct.

[1maarten1]

Im not sure about Cavern in here, the spell we really want to resolve is Food Chain. Might be strong tho, I'm just not sure.

How about Griselbrand? Draws a lot more than Kozilek and costs less. Can get countered tho. (whereas kozilek draws you 4 even if it gets countered)

I don't think the Griffin is good in this deck. The deck never had problems with ramping up mana so I don't think we need infinite-mana shenanigans.

I am quite happy with this set :) It has been bringing up a lot of interesting cards which are worth considering.

I am still not set on playing GSZ in here, but it might be the best choice. I am however skeptical on upping the count of non-creature-non-elf cards in the deck.

Thoughts on these points?

[Brushwagg]

So I'm glad I got my Foil Food Chains like 2 years ago.


I don't think the Griffin is good in this deck. The deck never had problems with ramping up mana so I don't think we need infinite-mana shenanigans.

I did some messing around with my Glimpse list. When you find it you draw to Emrakul and win. Not sure if it improves the deck at all though.

[madcatsowega]

Hey there! This is my first time posting on the Source but I've been a lurker for quite awhile. :tongue:

I've been working on a Food Chain Elves list in the past few months and have adopted a lot of my deck's structure from the suggestions and lists posted here. I've got a primer for it over on MTG Salvation but since it seemed like there was a lot more interest (or at least more players who have tried this deck out) here, I thought it was a bit of a shame to not see any further discussion taking place here... especially since Griselbrand came out.

Anyways, I must say this deck is sure a heck of a lot of fun to pilot and, it's been said before, but for how cheap the deck is to build, pretty decent too. My focus has been on streamlining and making the combo more consistent which I have been able to do by running:

1x Griselbrand
3x Elvish Harbinger
4x Enlightened Tutor

IMHO, combined with some draw elves, these cards dramatically increase the deck's consistency in comboing out by turn three. True, some of the deck's ability to aggro/stall/grind is sacrificed, but not horribly so. Here's the list I've been running (the lands are budget):

Creature (35)
1x Brass Herald
4x Elvish Archdruid
3x Elvish Harbinger
4x Elvish Visionary
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Fierce Empath
4x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Griselbrand
4x Llanowar Elves
2x Llanowar Empath
3x Multani's Acolyte
4x Sylvan Messenger

Land (17)
4x Brushland
3x City of Brass
5x Forest
4x Razorverge Thicket
1x Tree of Tales

Instant (4)
4x Enlightened Tutor

Enchantment (4)
4x Food Chain

Sideboard:
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Pithing Needle
3x Trinisphere
3x Choke
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
4x Silence
1x Grafdigger's Cage


Considering the consistency of the deck to combo off, thanks to the extra juice Griselstick provides, the Brass Herald and Llanowar Empath could probably easily be cut for better main deck cards.

Anyways, I'd be curious to get others' input!

[igri_is_a_bk]

Priest of Titania > Elvish Archdruid
Wirewood Symbiote improves every match up.
Elvish Harbinger gets better if you can reuse your Visionary/Acolyte via Symbiote.
You're right, Brass Herald is out. I have Aethersnipe in its place.
Green Sun's Zenith is great, and means you don't have to use eight mana dorks.
I can tell you from experience, Llanowar Empath is really bad. Fauna Shaman would be better.

// Lands
11 [UNH] Forest
3 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
3 [B] Llanowar Elves
3 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
4 [US] Priest of Titania
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
1 [M11] Fauna Shaman
4 [M10] Elvish Visionary
3 [UL] Multani's Acolyte
4 [SC] Fierce Empath
1 [LRW] AEthersnipe
1 [AVR] Griselbrand
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [AP] Sylvan Messenger

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [MM] Food Chain

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 [MR] Viridian Shaman
SB: 2 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [EVG] Wren's Run Vanquisher
SB: 2 [AVR] Ulvenwald Tracker


Peacekeeper, Meddling Mage, and Ethersworn Canonist have stopped me enough games that I want Tracker + Vanquisher in my board. It's decent. Masticore could also be an option for fewer slots, but is more stressful on your hand and mana, obviously. It's also good against decks like Mav, Merfolk, creature.dec

[madcatsowega]

Igri, I really appreciate that you took the time to share your thoughts and a recent deck list of yours. I know you have been a long-time pilot of this deck so I value your input. I apologize in advance that this post is such a novel in length. I'm just really passionate about this deck right now and have been trying to process every avenue in building this deck.

In analyzing your list and my list I think I can subtly see two different trains of thought or theories in building a successful Food Chain Elves deck. Mine has a stronger focus in comboing out through Food Chain and yours has a little more focus on comboing through mana ramp elves/Cradle (as another way of dropping fatties) and also Food Chain.

In this deck's past, I think players recognized the power of Food Chain and so FCE was built out of an attempt to break the card. What first resulted was a deck that was purely focused around the combo. However, with the card pool available at the time, FCE could be very explosive but overall wasn't that consistent or that protected of a combo deck. Instead of scrapping the whole idea (because there is a lot of power to it), everyone started bringing in a lot more aggro and other elements to balance out the combo aspect of the deck. What this did was weaken the combo aspect of the deck but fill the gaps in this deck's performance and so for quite a long time, I believe the more aggro focused elves (with a back up Food Chain) plan was the best.

I started out with a mono-green list that was not identical but pretty similar to the list you just shared (I didn't have Gaea's Cradle in it though and no Griselbrand or Elvish Harbinger yet) and what I found is that I generally won more of my games just by swarming on the field and potentially using tutor elves and Food Chain as massive ramp into an Emrakul in the later game as an 'Oops! I win' factor. Or I just mana ramped like a boss into Emrakul. What I found though is that you really couldn't rely on consistently comboing off within the first few turns through a Food Chain because:

1. This relied on a specific card that you only run four of, Food Chain

2. There wasn't enough consistent draw/tutoring to cantrip your way through the deck in many situations. It's not that comboing was impossible, just that fizzling was a reality that I had to plan for in games where the deck wasn't stacked the way it needed to be to finish the deal. Generally, I'd try to play where I could at least use the mana I got in attempting to combo off by dropping some elves on the field and I'd be okay.

So it wasn't necessarily disastrous to fizzle but in those situations I honestly would have preferred to just combo off, ensuring a win.

When Griselbrand came out, I realized he would be nuts in this deck and could greatly reduce fizzling. With him came the idea of building a more combo oriented FCE list. I wanted to see what could be done so I brought in Enlightened Tutors which I'd seen in old lists in the past to double up on the Food Chains and I brought in Griselbrand and finally, in my search came across Elvish Harbinger which is the nuts in this deck for reducing fizzling. In the end, I've come up with a very consistent turn three list.

Since fizzling is pretty much next to nil at this point, I believe there is some strength in running a very combo oriented list (not to invalidate more aggro oriented lists). It lets you really set a clock against your opponent. Plus if they can stop you for a turn, it's pretty easy to try and combo off a turn or two later anyways. Part of this has to do with being able to grab Food Chain more consistently and also the fact that there is enough draw in the deck that we can often start a combo string off of just one or two good cantrip elves. In essence, "comboing" off never ceases to be a threat for the opponent.

I also really like that E-Tutor can serve to grab up answers post-SB. The trick is now trimming away the fat without hurting the speed and consistency of the deck by replacing said fat with cards that can pad the deck's weaknesses.

That said I feel I can drop Brass Herald and Llanowar Empath without hurting the consistency. I agree that Empath is a bad card. It was simply in my list as a two-of for the combo chain process. Herald is so unneeded at this point but was useful in the past when I had Kozilek instead of Griselbrand. With those three free slots I have considered everything from:


* Green Sun's Zenith -- which I feel would be a very solid addition here. I could then run a Dryad Arbor and potentially dip on the number of Llanowar Elves I run freeing up even more space.

* Silence/Orim's Chant -- for protection or to "half" time walk the opponent.

* Aethersnipe -- in place of just the Herald slot. It ramps mana which I almost never have a problem with but it can answer problematic permanents.


I agree that Wirewood Symbiote is the nuts and I've wanted to fit him somewhere in my 75 for some time. He could also take those three free slots.


Okay, what I have noticed in comparing our lists in light of comboing the turn we drop Food Chain:

* I run 20 draw guys (including Elvish Harbinger but not Brass Herald or Griselbrand). You run 15 (not including Griselbrand or the interaction with Symbiote or Fauna Shaman because she is effected by summoning sickness).

* I run 32 Elves. You run 30. Before I directly compared this number, I assumed the number of elves you run was significantly less than I did but that is not the case. This means Sylvan Messenger is potent in both lists. That's cool.

* You run Green Sun's Zenith, not Enlightened Tutor


I strongly believe in running Enlightened Tutors and Harbinger's and while I want to ensure I keep enough draw guys to still be able to consistently combo by turn three (and sometimes turn two!), I definitely want to see what strong cards in your list I can incorporate in mine before losing that consistency. It seems to me that it's just a matter of a fine balance.

I think the only suggestion you made that I am somewhat less hesitant to adopt is running Priests over Archdruids. I had the priests in my list before and agree that they are good. I've also had several others suggest the exact same thing. I guess I am just a stickler for a couple small reasons.

Elvish Archdruid is part of my win condition because I never combo off just dropping Emmy. I typically drop Emmy and two Archdruids (with all the draw and what not when you are chaining, have these cards in your hand at the end is very common) so that I can swing in for 21 on my extra turn and win before my opponent ever gets to take another turn. Also, the Archdruids are my protection against Karakas which has been relevant for me in past games. They have Karakas and you combo on turn three. You ramp to 21 mana and cast Emmy and two Archdruids. Take an extra turn and they bounce Emmy to hand. At this point you have chained through most of your elves so doing that all over again is unlikely. However, in the second main phase, you simply tap your Archdruids for a combined four mana, tap three lands which you are guaranteed to have and exile each druid for four each with Food Chain. This nets you exactly 15 mana so you can recast Emmy, take an extra turn and still win. The other small perks with Archdruid is that he boosts your guys and plays nicer with Trinisphere (which I run in my sideboard) when you are comboing out with Food Chain.

That said, enough peeps have suggested I swap them that I will probably still end up giving Priests a second chance in my deck to see how they do. So that said, I will actually probably end up taking/trying all of your suggestions as I continue to playtest and tweak my list. Thanks man!

[igri_is_a_bk]

Lots and lots.

You have quite a lot to say about the deck, and that's great. Although, I feel like we have two entirely different approaches to the way we play. My most common GSZ (a card you don't play) target is Symbiote (a card you don't play). I feel like he and Visionary are a stronger combination than Tutor, because GSZ can target a lot more than just the draw engine. I beat most of the non-FoW decks by swarming and smart moves with Symbiote; that is if I don't draw FC. I don't think Tutor is necessary against these decks at all. And against decks with Force, getting your Tutor, or worse, your FC countered is devastating. When you realize how great Symbiote is not as only protection, but as a draw engine, you may find you want to drop Tutor.

I just see no reason to play Archdruid when you have Cradle in the card pool. No summoning sickness, and free. The bonus is going to be irrelevant most of the time. There aren't too many decks that live through an Emrakul hit. Even then, just drop guys to chump and win next turn. It doesn't matter when they die, just that they do.

If you're going to run white, there are a few cards I think are staples. You should use a couple Mirror Entity because it creates an infinite mana loop with Wirewood Symbiote and Priest of Titania. You can toss in Elvish Visionary or Multani's Acolyte for infinite draw. If you haven't read Chris Andersen's article on Elves!, I recommend you do. It can be found here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23712_Legacy_Week_Always_Be_Cobbling_An_ElvesPrimer.html). It really highlights the strengths of Elves as a grinding deck, rather than a combo deck. Anyways, white also offers Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Ethersworn Canonist as sideboard hate.

Since Griselbrand was printed, I have found Messenger has become less relevant. All I need is to get the fattie in play and I don't need any more card draw, or very little. That's why I favor Fauna Shaman more right now, because I really just need Empaths. I'm going to try -2 Messenger, +2 Shaman for a while, and see how it goes.

Edit: And I am not convinced about Harbinger. Big picture, it is a turn slower than Fauna Shaman, and it can't find Symbiote or fatties. It's only advantage is that it has an EtB ability, but it's not one that works well with FC.