[DECK] Tempo Good Stuff UGWb

[ivanpei]

Having played tempo threshold in all its iterations for a long time (Can threshold and Black splash especially), I've really loved and respected the power of the 1 mana always open strategy for spell snare/stifle. Along with mana denial in the form of wasteland, daze is almost always a hard counter and relevant all the way to the mid/late game. However with recent shifts in the meta game, nimble mongoose, a tempo threshold staple, has been outsized by the power creep of creatures. After being stomped by bigger dudes like warmonk, knight of the reliquary and zoo's various cats, nimble got the boot.

I then moved to new horizons. It was promising, until I played with it more. The deck had serious issues with the curve. It was powerful yes, with huge creatures that outsized everything. I thought it was the natural next step for threshold. But big is not always better. Sometimes a timely waste of an opponent or a super quick zoo draw can out tempo new horizons. Having 6-7 three drops was a nightmare at times. I do little the first few turns other than cantrip/ occasional stifle, and always have 3 drops just sitting in my hand while I get swamped by weenies. Against control, 3 drops are not exactly ridiculously fast. I dislike dropping a monster and have it picked of by my opponent's 1 mana removal. However, in my testing, Knight of the reliquary was always the MVP. It was big, very big and in addition to that, it fit the mana denial strategy perfectly by fetching wastelands every turn. Usually an early wasteland/stifle, unanswered knight + 1/2 activations was GG for control, usually shutting off a color and then swinging for huge amounts before they can recover.

Another concern when playing any tempo threshold variant was card advantage. Usually against a mono colour deck or something with plenty of basics, the mana denial strategy doesnt always work. When it comes to a slug fest, tempo threshold is seriously lacking in the long game department. In the past, I played the black splash for bob and removal. Bob was excellent because usually tarmogoyf ate swords most of the time and bob would stick, drawing a ton of cards, turning the tide. With so many cheap cards, the pain wasn't usually a problem. Having plenty of dudes to block is fine as well. With the above reasonings in mind, I proceeded to craft a Tempo Goodstuff list with a UGW core and splash for Bob. Here is the list:

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Misty rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland

As you can see the deck, is pretty straightforward. It is pretty much UGWb goodstuff. For those who are looking for a new tempo list to try out, give this a shot. You might think, shoddy manabase? Well yes and no. I don't doubt that playing 4 colors in a tempo oriented deck is pretty terrible. But bob's shear drawing power is very worth it. Having 9 fetches and 22 lands makes the 4 colours quite achievable. I've tested against wastelands and ports. Being colour screwed happens occasionally, but you have the stifles for their wastelands too, so thank you very much for helping me tempo you. Its just splash bob anyway, so if you don't have the bob, you don't need to fetch black. This list plays 22 land, which is a lot for a tempo oriented deck. However the deck has a significantly higher curve thanks to knight, and it needs to eat lands to turn them into wastelands.

I haven't tested enough to do a comprehensive matchup analysis. I would like to enlist my fellow sourcers to help test it! From the testing I have done, it is a beating against zoo (as is anything with stifles and wastelands) by being able to colour screw them and outsize them. The deck is very similar to new horizons in this case. This is also significantly better against slower blue control strategies that are getting very popular in the meta. I play snares, which answer standstills and counterbalance very well, along with aggro's bombs like goyf, sylvan library, lord of atlantis. New horizons plays engineered explosives which is all well and good, but man does that card require you to stretch your play to make it work (like not dropping a turn 2 goyf, casting it and having a spare mana doing nothing, not having enough mana to pop etc). EE is good, but it is NOT a tempo play. I prefer to just counter a threat efficiently and draw more counters/answers/threats with bob to overpower the opposing player. Having snare also makes stifle better. Ever had the experience of keeping 1 mana open and having your opponent drop a non-fetch followed by a bomb? Snare helps you utilize the 1 mana open strategy better by giving you the option of countering something if your opponent plays around stifle.

In summary, I'm just offering an alternative evolution of tempo based blue aggro control in the big creature infested meta that is legacy. This is my humble attempt to shore up new horizon's weaknesses which is primarily it's curve and the lack of card advantage. Jace TMS is not a fix all in the card advantage department, and I truely think it wrecks what is already a terrible curve in New Horizons. I may have weakened the manabase slightly, but I believe having bob and snares increases the deck's raw power considerably and smooths out the curve better. Try it! Thoughts are most welcome!

[Mister Agent]

I can help you test this deck. It seems like it has potential to be pretty good. I've always wanted to try out bobs with knight of the reliquary just to see how good it really is. It seems like a combination of sheer card advantage since your making wasteland more absurd with knight and bobs provides you additional card draw. Although, the only bad thing about knight is it costs three which means it's more of a mid range card then an early game card.

For the manabase, I'd still would consider at least a basic island.

I'll definitely will try this deck out later this week whenever I have the time.

[schniggaz]

I have played the same list a few weeks ago. In my opinion you should change Spell Snare with Spell Pierce, because the creatures with cc2 aren't scary for your deck. Knight is always bigger xD
Spell Pierce hits a lot of dangerous things, too (Survival; Counterbalance) and it deals with Planeswalkers, Vials and so on. Nevertheless they are great against Combo.

My main Problem was the really weak Merfolk Match-Up and Control Decks.

[ivanpei]

Hmm, I think the horizon canopy could be an Island. After some testing, having a 1 off horizon canopy in the opening hand was annoying. Combined with pain from bob, I don't think it's necessary. Canopies are played in New horizon as a way to draw with Knight and I found at least 2 useful. With this list and bobs, I think cutting canopies totally is ok. I was missing the basic when playing vs wastelands. A turn one basic is a pretty useful as most of us know.

@ Spell pierce. Interesting suggestion. I like it in most decks, but I don't like having daze and pierce in the same deck. They do different things, yes and the deck doesn't worry about dudes that much but with bob in the deck, you do want to keep your life high and counter early threats. Having said that I think the fact that spell pierce keeps STP and other removal spells off bob and knight is a big plus too. Have to test pierce. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm really liking the feel of this deck. I think the spell pierce/spell snare call will be up to your meta. More walkers/control, go for pierce, more folk, zoo, go for snare. :)

[Hitman82]

If you play four-color, don't play Wasteland. Your manabase will already be stretched thin but Wasteland will put a much larger strain on you in conjunction with your heavy color requirements than your opponent. Four-color is hard to pull off in Legacy because of the prevalence of Wasteland, Stifle and Blood Moon effects, among other things. With that in mind, do you think Dark Confidant is actually worth playing? Your deck is very vulnerable to mana disruption and Dark Confidant is an easy target in Legacy. Every deck can kill him or ignore him. You may think Stifle will protect you from opponent's Wastelands but it will only do so occasionally and at the cost of you failing to Stifle them. At that point, is Stifle even worth running? I think you can make your deck work without Confidant and Stifle. I think those cards are actually hurting what you want your deck to do. Just some suggestions; I hope they were helpful.

[Mister Agent]

Hmm, I think the horizon canopy could be an Island. After some testing, having a 1 off horizon canopy in the opening hand was annoying. Combined with pain from bob, I don't think it's necessary. Canopies are played in New horizon as a way to draw with Knight and I found at least 2 useful. With this list and bobs, I think cutting canopies totally is ok. I was missing the basic when playing vs wastelands. A turn one basic is a pretty useful as most of us know.


Well, considering, ponder and brainstorm are the strongest cards in the deck, I think it's worth adding an island. You would rather stifle your opponent's fetchlands then saving your nonbasics anyway.

I also think you should cram in some engineered explosives. Possibly cut some spell snares for them as EE is alot stronger then spell snare at large. I mean, hitting cats at 1 in the zoo matchup can swing the matchup in your favor. You have stp, goyf, daze, and knights for their 2 drops anyway. So in my opinion explosives would be more utilizing for you then spell snare, as I don't think spell snare is that strong.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm also going to agree with cutting Canopy for an Island. Furthermore, you may wish to cut down on your Wasteland count; while I don't think you need to drop them totally (as per Hitman's suggestion), going above two is risky and three is really pushing it. I would cut them in favor of either additional fetches or additional basics, your call.

I'm not really a big fan of Stifle. I realize most people automatically associate "tempo blue" with "4 Stifle", but the card is really pretty terrible, especially if you're on the draw or you keep blue up and the opponent goes turn one dual/basic - now the joke's on you since you're the one losing tempo here by not actually doing anything. I would recommend cutting the Stifles altogether and running some number of EE main and possibly filling out the rest of the Ponders.

One other option is going more traditional Bant with your mana base and splashing black just for Bob. That would require you to run 4 Noble Hierarch instead of Stifle, but this is actually a pretty fair trade in my mind; you're trading off the potential for Negative Tempo (denying the opponent resources) for Positive Tempo (boosting your own resources past the opponent's). It would also allow you to consider the full four Wastelands again, but you would need to really make sure you could hit both green and blue on turn one so as to maximize your chances of having a relevant play.

But that's just my take on things. If you want to play Stifle, then that's probably fine.

[kinda]

Why spell snare over thoughtseize?

[ivanpei]

Most of the suggestions and arguments are valid and I will try to address then. @ Ee, as I argued previously, it is a pretty good Swiss army knife answer to plenty of things. I don't run it because it is not tempo by playing Ee, you have a very good option of sweeping cats in zoo, however if you don't play against zoo, most of the time your Ee will be set at 2, which can be pretty heavy collateral since you have goyfs and bob. I think Ee is excellent in new horizons with very little 2 drops but not in this deck.

@ bob, yes he is very worth playing,if not I wouldn't even consider going out of my way to play him. Saying he eats removal is not a strong argument. He is a potent treat along with goyf and knight. Goyf and knight both eat swords, does that make them bad includes? He wins games by himself by drawing you an additional card a turn. He is the reason for playing this deck over new horizons. Being on the board early and even just sticking for a few turns is enough to win you the game. He is a 2cc which is what a tempo deck sorely needs and he is card advantage. I prefer having bobs rather then Ee plus 3 cc dudes.

@ no thoughtseize, thoughtseize does not require your opponent to invest mana. So it is tempo loss, Spell snare is reactive rather then proactive. Opponent spends 2 mana you pay 1 mana to answer.

@ aggro zombies. I haven't had problems with 4 wastes yet. I can see swapping out the stifle snare package for hierarch and another threat/ answer. I don't like Ee as I have argued above, this deck has too many 2 cc cards. By swapping however, you lose a heavy part of your mana denial plan. Mana denial is my main reason to play this deck. Heirarch boosts your tempo, stifle slows your opponent AND potentially screws them over royally if they keep a land light hand. Stifle is also a much better topdeck late as its blue and can hit stuff like deed, opposing ee's, ringleaders, stoneforge triggers. I'll just play new horizons with heirarchs if I were to swap my plan totally (which I did previously and was unhappy with)

[SpikeyMikey]

I think if I wanted additional draw, I'd run Selkie over Bob since it's only slightly weaker, pitches to Force and doesn't require going into a 4th color for a 4-of. Especially since I don't like Bob in decks without SDT. But that'd probably require completely changing the direction of the deck.

[Mister Agent]

Most of the suggestions and arguments are valid and I will try to address then. @ Ee, as I argued previously, it is a pretty good Swiss army knife answer to plenty of things. I don't run it because it is not tempo by playing Ee, you have a very good option of sweeping cats in zoo, however if you don't play against zoo, most of the time your Ee will be set at 2, which can be pretty heavy collateral since you have goyfs and bob. I think Ee is excellent in new horizons with very little 2 drops but not in this deck.


Zoo is a very popular deck and so I think it would be an good idea to metagame against it. I also think EE is pretty handy in the merfolk matchup as well since you don't always have the relevant countermagic to put Vial out of commission. So in other words, if your playing against a merfolk build that's splashing colors to play goyf and what not your stifles/wastelands will be less relevant until you can answer vial. Although, I think you should be answering vial as soon as possible anyway if you expect to win against merfolks consistently.

Although, I respect your argument in not running EE. I still think maybe you could run them in the sideboard at the very least.

[Hitman82]

@ bob, yes he is very worth playing,if not I wouldn't even consider going out of my way to play him. Saying he eats removal is not a strong argument. He is a potent treat along with goyf and knight. Goyf and knight both eat swords, does that make them bad includes? He wins games by himself by drawing you an additional card a turn. He is the reason for playing this deck over new horizons. Being on the board early and even just sticking for a few turns is enough to win you the game. He is a 2cc which is what a tempo deck sorely needs and he is card advantage. I prefer having bobs rather then Ee plus 3 cc dudes.

I should have gone more in-depth with my question. The reason "tempo" decks don't play long term card advantage spells is because you don't have the cards capable of carrying you through a long game. Drawing extra cards that are bad going into the endgame doesn't actually gain you any value. If your deck isn't equipped to carry you into a long game, why play cards that don't capitalize on the early tempo gains you're trying to generate? Daze, Stifle and Confidant are actually terrible in a long game because they don't really do anything in the context of your deck. Creatures don't win endgames. Tempo decks win with creatures because they're trying to win fast through the tempo already generated early on. Look at "control" decks. They're win conditions are kind of laughable on a mana-to-object gained ratio. Decree of Justice, Elspeth, Gigapede and whatever else real control decks play are all terrible comparatively speaking but none of that matters because by the time they've reached the endgame, they're able to cast those ridiculously slow win conditions and they're relatively slow win conditions are going to pown your Tarmogoyf because a Tarmogoyf's got nothing on large flying angels or swarms of 1/1s and so on.

The reason I mentioned removal is because now you're a straight up tempo sink. When you tap two mana early on to play a Confidant and all they did was kill it, you lost tremendous tempo, especially if you defended with Daze or the like, because you're no closer to actually winning the game but they'll be a mana closer to playing something you can't compete with and you just wasted disruption trying to protect a spell that didn't matter in the first place. Tempo decks are a maze of counter-strategy where you have to correctly evaluate plays to determine whether you're actually generating tempo with a certain play or not. There is no such thing as a tempo card, only cards that generate tempo given the right circumstances. Dark Confidant does not fit that role no matter what way you look at it. He's actually better in a control deck where he can generate card advantage to ensure land drops and interactive spells in hand. However, because of the tendencies of the format, he doesn't even fit in well there because he's too vulnerable to removal so they simply play spells that draw cards immediately like Fact or Fiction or Jace, the Mindsculptor.

The risk of removal Tarmogoyf and Knight draw is worth it because they actually do something you're trying to do, end the game quickly. A tempo deck probably shouldn't play either Confidant or Engineered Explosives because they're not actively doing anything you're trying to do. Out of the board is another thing because certain decks are weak to certain cards so certain concessions can always be made.

I'm not trying to rank on you or something but trying to more thoroughly explain where I'm coming from and why I'm asking the questions I ask. Hopefully my comments were helpful.

[ivanpei]

No worries, all of us here are trying to improve our game or in my case, trying to find a winning strategy. EE's in the board is a good suggestion. I was in the middle of constructing a sideboard and realised that I would definitely be taking out bobs vs zoo and I do not want to be boarding in paths because that would be counterproductive since my main plan is mana denial VS zoo. Selkie is also a good idea. However I think selkie is more of a board card because he is pretty terrible vs anything that is not blue. Also, selkie is a 3cc and as I mentioned previously I don't want to load up on more 3ccs. I think he has a place in the board if I totally cut confidants.

Lastly on card advantage, I agree with your point that you are trying to kill opponents by keeping them off balance. I played canadian threshold and almost every card in that deck was for speeding up the clock or for disruption. Can threshold didn't bother playing CA cards because it was effective enough at what it does. Why does a tempo deck need CA? IMHO, the meta has shifted and many new cards have been printed that generate pseudo card advantage or are so versatile that they can give a deck an edge for cheap. Take folk for example, silvergill adept is a 2/1 for 2 that draws a card. Pridemage is a 2/2 or 3/3 that can be saced later to kill a balance. War monk doubles as offense and defense at the same time by swinging and gaining you life. KOTR is a big beater and can fetch wastelands or canopies.

The raw power for cheap has increased significantly from the days when some 2/3cc cards could be ignored or did not have a big enough impact on the game. I feel that whenever I am playing some tempo varient, there are just simply too many problem cards that come up for me to deal with. Bob is not here to establish control. He is a raw card engine that keeps the disruption/threats flowing. Drawing just one card a turn was insufficient for me to keep the opponent off balance long enough for me to kill him. Unless I can find another super efficient 2 drop that can kill lightning quick or disrupt efficiently, bob currently is the best at the 2cc slot. He is also one of the above mentioned edge givers for cheap although forcing me to splash a different colour.

I am very open to suggestions for creatures/bombs at the 2cc slot. I've played with things ranging from bitterblossom to stoneforge mystic. If you read my post on the tempo bant thread, I played something very similar to the above list except I had pridemage instead of bob. Pridemage was okay, but just didn't seem to be doing enough. Occasionally saving my ass vs balance/jitte but very little of anything else. I've never been truely happy with any other 2 drop except bob. He is generally always good to draw and I love playing him turn 2/3. I look forward to this discussion and I will once again say that I dislike the noble heirarch + more 3cc cards strategy. Playing nobles+ 3cc imo is weak because:

1) Noble on the play denies you the option of stifle on the play.
2) Noble on the draw denies you stifle and snare.
3) If you don't draw noble in your opening hand, your 3ccs are stuck in your hand hence not a tempo play.
4) Nobles are bad to draw past the first turn. The stifle/snare package are fine topdecks and do many things other than generate tempo. Sure nobles give+1/+1 but I don't think you want to draw a card on turns 4/5 that says "G: target attacking creature you control that is attacking alone gets +1, +1".

[Hitman82]

I do not want to be boarding in paths because that would be counterproductive since my main plan is mana denial VS zoo.

I don't think this is a valid strategy against a deck that's almost entirely one and two drops.


IMHO, the meta has shifted and many new cards have been printed that generate pseudo card advantage or are so versatile that they can give a deck an edge for cheap. Take folk for example, silvergill adept is a 2/1 for 2 that draws a card. Pridemage is a 2/2 or 3/3 that can be saced later to kill a balance. War monk doubles as offense and defense at the same time by swinging and gaining you life. KOTR is a big beater and can fetch wastelands or canopies.

If this is your position, why do you think you need extra card advantage when your threats can double duty tasks? Isn't there enough value built into these creatures that you don't actually need a dedicated engine? With my UGW deck, I haven't wished for more card advantage but I have wished for a faster clock.


I feel that whenever I am playing some tempo varient, there are just simply too many problem cards that come up for me to deal with.

I think that's because you're playing narrow disruption in the form of Spell Snare and Stifle instead of a broad card like Spell Pierce.


Unless I can find another super efficient 2 drop that can kill lightning quick or disrupt efficiently, bob currently is the best at the 2cc slot.

...but my contention is Confidant does neither of those things. He's a Time Walk for your opponent except you're the one paying the mana for it. He costs you valuable early game plays and mana and does little to nothing for your endgame. Add to that the additional strain you put on your manabase to support him and you have a recipe for disaster, especially in conjunction with the Wastelands you're playing. This deck folds to Canadian Threshold, Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk and Landstill. You can't afford to lose to those matchups.

As an aside, I think you need to diversify your creature base because it folds to Relic of Progenitus. Relic of Progenitus is the reason I don't always play a UGB deck.


I am very open to suggestions for creatures/bombs at the 2cc slot. I've played with things ranging from bitterblossom to stoneforge mystic. If you read my post on the tempo bant thread, I played something very similar to the above list except I had pridemage instead of bob.

Qasali Pridemage is absolutely better than Dark Confidant. Not only does he make your attack step ridiculous but he stops an opponent's Aether Vial, Jitte, Moat, Ghostly Prison, Isochron Scepter, Counterbalance, Moxes, Enchantress (the deck), etc. The turn he comes into play, you're actually doing something, whether that's interacting, an exalted trigger or just blocking. He doesn't increase the stress on your manabase and synergizes with most everything you're trying to do. For a long time, I was saying Qasali was better than Tarmogoyf in this deck. Whether that was just hyperbole I'm not sure but he's definitely an all-star.

Do not play Stoneforge Mystic. It's the nut low. For one, it makes you vulnerable to Stifle. Secondly, it's an opportunity to get Time Walked. When you tap to equip and they kill your creature in response, you lose the game because all you play are tempo cards and they play Tombstalkers, Progenitus, Countryside Crusher and so on. You lose so much tempo, you lose unless they don't have anything.

[ivanpei]

I wonder what the trolling was above. I'm kinda curious now. Didn't catch it in time. @ Hitman32, I respect your arguments and I enjoy a healthy discussion. Here are my points in return:


I don't think this is a valid strategy against a deck that's almost entirely one and two drops.

Wrecking zoo's mana base and keeping them off colour, especially off green is absolutely essential vs zoo. Giving them a free forest really affects your mana denial plan. I will back this 100% I've played enough wastelands + stifles vs zoo, its absolutely critical.


If this is your position, why do you think you need extra card advantage when your threats can double duty tasks? Isn't there enough value built into these creatures that you don't actually need a dedicated engine? With my UGW deck, I haven't wished for more card advantage but I have wished for a faster clock.

I think that's because you're playing narrow disruption in the form of Spell Snare and Stifle instead of a broad card like Spell Pierce.

When I mentioned the utility creatures I was referring to them on the opposite side of the board. And spell pierce doesn't stop the problematic creatures I mentioned. Also I dislike having both pierce and daze in the same deck. Fighting walkers and expensive bombs is done through stifle/daze/wasteland. Spell snare is to stop early drops that slip through before you can get your manabase wrecking ball started.


...but my contention is Confidant does neither of those things. He's a Time Walk for your opponent except you're the one paying the mana for it. He costs you valuable early game plays and mana and does little to nothing for your endgame. Add to that the additional strain you put on your manabase to support him and you have a recipe for disaster, especially in conjunction with the Wastelands you're playing. This deck folds to Canadian Threshold, Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk and Landstill. You can't afford to lose to those matchups.

I've tested against gobs, zoo and landstill with this list. I won't say that I fold to them. On the contrary, the deck does quite well. I assure you that the manabase is not as bad you think it is. I've played 4c landstill with 7 colourless lands and it was still ok. This deck is similar in that sense. It is more susceptible to mana disruption, yes. I've admitted this and am willing to stretch my manabase for bob. He is good IMO, and I like a no frills engine in my deck. He is ideal until I've found an on colour 2 mana bomb for the deck in the same vein. When I played new horizons, goyf + knight+ stp have been pretty good at stopping creatures and I wished threat 9-11/12 (terravore mainly) was something that was end game based, hence why I decided to splash for bob. I don't think this "folds" to relic. It's a beating, definitely and a timely relic from zoo is devastating, however everything has it's cryptonite and relic is only really bad when you are under alot of pressure from aggro, which is a good MU in my book. Against control that plays relic, relic just stalls. Knights can fetch more fetches/wastelands so relic is only very threatening when you are facing down a hoard of critters. I'm honestly more afraid of perish, which is a one sided wrath effect. If this list folds to relic, so does new horizons, and most UGW decks that don't run warmonk/clique. New horizons seems to be successful enough though it "folds" to relic.


Qasali Pridemage is absolutely better than Dark Confidant. Not only does he make your attack step ridiculous but he stops an opponent's Aether Vial, Jitte, Moat, Ghostly Prison, Isochron Scepter, Counterbalance, Moxes, Enchantress (the deck), etc. The turn he comes into play, you're actually doing something, whether that's interacting, an exalted trigger or just blocking. He doesn't increase the stress on your manabase and synergizes with most everything you're trying to do. For a long time, I was saying Qasali was better than Tarmogoyf in this deck. Whether that was just hyperbole I'm not sure but he's definitely an all-star.

Do not play Stoneforge Mystic. It's the nut low. For one, it makes you vulnerable to Stifle. Secondly, it's an opportunity to get Time Walked. When you tap to equip and they kill your creature in response, you lose the game because all you play are tempo cards and they play Tombstalkers, Progenitus, Countryside Crusher and so on. You lose so much tempo, you lose unless they don't have anything.

I find it odd that you mentioned that stoneforge is bad because it makes you vulnerable to stifle. Playing pridemage also makes you vulnerable to stifle? Anyway,I've tried stoneforge and I've cut it. So at least we agree on that point.

I will now argue as to why I've swapped pridemage for bob. In testing, pridemage was very useful. Don't get me wrong I love the card, however it was also very lackluster at times. If you play enough dudes, its nice to have pridemage to swing with and to blow up stuff occasionally. I always play a couple in my bant decks. In my "vision" of tempo, I play it the way I used to play it in the old days, with 10-12 critters. Since I sacrifice the number of bodies for counterspells, the chance of bomb enchantments and artifacts slipping through my web of mana denial and counters is slim. If they do slip through, its part of the risk the deck is taking.

Having said that, the remaining 10-12 dudes have to be absolute bombs. Pridemage is not an absolute bomb in my book. Its a so-so bear that doubles as removal at choice times. It does not win the game in this build. In the UGW tempo list with lots of dudes (16 and up), and less counterspells, qasali pridemage is absolutely critical. I will agree with you 100% on that. This is because you have less counters, so things are more likely to slip past, and pridemage is there to clean up the offending permanents and you swing in for lots. I am not saying my strategy of more counters/denial is better than the UGW tempo strategy of many utility dudes that beat. They are both fundamentally different in strategy. I'd like to hear some card suggestions that further the more counters/denial and less dudes strategy. If I feel that I'm in a meta that requires me to field lots of dudes that block, I would definitely play UGW tempo. In a more diversified field, I prefer this deck.

I've already illustrated the difference in both strategies in my posts above. I can go into greater detail if needed. However I think this post is pretty long as it is. Cheers, Ivan.