[SCD] Suffer the Past

[EssKay]

Suffer the Past
XB
Instant
Exile X target cards from target player's graveyard. For each card exiled this way, that player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.

Does anyone think this card is playable in Legacy? I like the fact that it's instant and doubles as burn/life swing, but I feel like it's lost in the sea of excellent yard hate that black already has.

[Valtrix]

The X in the cost is too prohibitive. The problem is that even if you want to get rid of one card in a graveyard you need to pay :1::b: which is just too inefficient. The life loss and gain should hardly matter in a game since X will likely never be high enough to matter. Additionally, most of the best decks just aren't playing black, and if they are they're combo and wouldn't want graveyard hate like this. Really, the main issue is that this card is terrible against dredge, and if you don't want it against that deck, then why do you even want graveyard hate to begin with? Also, planar void is the best yard hate in black, in my opinion.

Something strange I do find on this card though is that it targets both the player and the cards in their yard. So apparently leyline of sanctity even stops this card?

[jazzykat]

I want to like this card, but in a vacuum it seems too slow. I mean, Undermine is a counterspell with a bolt tacked on for just one more black mana but it is never played. Do you have a suggested application for the card for us to discuss it in?

I will say this though, the format has definitely slowed down a bit evidenced by deed being highly playable again, and the advent of pure control decks performing again. I would say that we have to start looking at either: 1.Slower (outdated?) solutions that are more powerful, or 2. Consistently speeding up a deck to blow past the rest of the format.

[EssKay]

Well I see a lot of people touting the utility of Faerie Macabre, and was wondering if this might be another card that initially seems useless, but turns out to be quite the opposite. Of course, Macabre has uncounterability going for it, and the ability to be another body if yard hate isn't needed. Really when I first saw Suffer the Past, I thought "oh cool, a black burn spell with yard hate attached." I thought it might be useful in something like Sui Black, which lacks the extra reach that Sligh gets from burn. I just realized though that it can never become popular because it shares the same abbreviation as Swords to Plowshares, and having to always type out either one is just unacceptable.

[CorpT]

Also, planar void is the best yard hate in black, in my opinion.

Extirpate, Leyline of the Void, Faerie Macabre and Ravenous Trap would like a word with you.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

downside of Planar Void is it hits you too. Leyline of the Void is better.

I play Suffer in Standard, and it's good at knocking down Knight of the Reliquary at instant speed, and for getting rid of Vengevine and various Unearthers.

as far as Legacy is concerned, I might consider it in a side board for {Enter suicide Black deck here}, but it is kinda slow. Even though paying :1::b: nets the life difference of 2, in most games, two life doesn't matter. (common sense after the cut) // Life totals don't matter unless one of them is Zero. So maybe....maybe...in Suicide Black somewhere.

Also, I've never cared for Faerie Macabre.

[Vacrix]

Also, planar void is the best yard hate in black, in my opinion.
+1

Seriously, I don't know why more people don't play this card. If it comes down on the first turn, it gives a lot of decks trouble, namely those that run Goyf.

[dahcmai]

I've had to walk past more tables and tell some poor sap that his deck does not work like he thinks it does when this card comes up. I keep seeing people trying to mill themselves then pay B to kill the opponent because they missed the fact they would have to pay that much mana also. Annoying card is annoying.

As for the card in my opinion, it's too slow by far. Mana intensive as hell and there's just plain better options especially in black.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I think what people are missing is that Suffer targets specific cards. "Your Knight is how big? Not anymore." Oh, is that your second creature this turn? Response." If you're not playing Goyf yourself, then maybe mass hate works, but Suffer has it's uses.

[Valtrix]

And I think what you're missing is that other graveyard hate hits those specific cards better, since it just hits everything and all for a the reduced price of less than a single suffer the past. Clearly all graveyard hate has its use; I could use beckon apparition to hit a card and double block to kill a creature. That doesn't mean it's a very good option for graveyard hate though.

[cjva]

I can see it as a alt wincon in either spring tide splashing black or solidarity splashing black. Dunno what reason you would have with splashing black in solidarity, but tendrils is better then freeze in a spring tide shell. These are the decks that generate semi infinite mana, and actually can pay the cost of the card.

In all cases where you don't want it to alt as a wincon, all the other options mentioned for gy-hate is better, and lots gy-hate that haven't been mentioned in the thread.

[LOurs]

+1

Seriously, I don't know why more people don't play this card. If it comes down on the first turn, it gives a lot of decks trouble, namely those that run Goyf.

I like Planar void, but there are several reason why this card doesnt see more play :

> It is bilateral : it prevents you from having a GY and many good black cards are needing gy (tombstalker on the top)
> It is counterable : although leyline or faerie arent. Decisive vs blue shell.

But the most important of all : planar void doesnt prevent any card from going into the GY. yes it removes a card once it is in the Graveyard but the card is still going in the GY. This is a huge difference compared to leyline for many uses : you cant play helm/void, you cant prevent instant playing with the GY, you cant avoid emrakul / Gaea blessing effect ...It makes this card strictly worse than its competitor most of the time.

About suffer, I enjoyed it a lot in limited, a bit less in std and even if I thought about it for legacy, I definitly came to the conclusion that it is extremly slow for the format, whatever its advantages ...

[Vacrix]

I like Planar void, but there are several reason why this card doesnt see more play :

> It is bilateral : it prevents you from having a GY and many good black cards are needing gy (tombstalker on the top)
> It is counterable : although leyline or faerie arent. Decisive vs blue shell.

But the most important of all : planar void doesnt prevent any card from going into the GY. yes it removes a card once it is in the Graveyard but the card is still going in the GY. This is a huge difference compared to leyline for many uses : you cant play helm/void, you cant prevent instant playing with the GY, you cant avoid emrakul / Gaea blessing effect ...It makes this card strictly worse than its competitor most of the time.

About suffer, I enjoyed it a lot in limited, a bit less in std and even if I thought about it for legacy, I definitly came to the conclusion that it is extremly slow for the format, whatever its advantages ...
Sure.... but Swamp, Planar Void is strong as hell against a plethora of decks. It completely shuts down Knights and Goyfs, which has become the standard team in UGw aggro/control and even Zoo. Also, if your opponent counters this, they aren't countering something else. Worst comes to worst? Its a Hymn for B. Not bad I'd say.

[CorpT]

Sure.... but Swamp, Planar Void is strong as hell against a plethora of decks. It completely shuts down Knights and Goyfs, which has become the standard team in UGw aggro/control and even Zoo. Also, if your opponent counters this, they aren't countering something else. Worst comes to worst? Its a Hymn for B. Not bad I'd say.

Why would you play GY hate against UGw Aggro/Control or Zoo? That sounds terrible. Not only is it easily answerable (QPM, Grip, Daze, etc...), but it does nothing to everything already in their yard.

[Vacrix]

Its not particularly great against Zoo, but imagine playing it against New Horizons or Thresh. It literally shuts down their offense completely. I ran it in storm combo for a while with moderate success.

[ScatmanX]

Why does nobody sees this card as an Instant and better Drain Life, that has a plus of removing graveyards?
Or is that effect to bad to be run even as a 2off in decks like say, The Gate or Demon Stompy?

[Jak]

Why does nobody sees this card as an Instant and better Drain Life, that has a plus of removing graveyards?
Or is that effect to bad to be run even as a 2off in decks like say, The Gate or Demon Stompy?

I think we do... but who plays Drain Life.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Why does nobody sees this card as an Instant and better Drain Life, that has a plus of removing graveyards?
Or is that effect to bad to be run even as a 2off in decks like say, The Gate or Demon Stompy?

Above all else... I just don't think anyone's really playtested the card much, it's not like most people have done extensive testing and come to the conclusion, most is just speculation but for all the reasons everyone listed that's why no one's tempted it much. Give it a try and if you get results, otherwise...

I've got a playset sitting in my binder. Let me know if I can make use lol

[jrsthethird]

Why does nobody sees this card as an Instant and better Drain Life, that has a plus of removing graveyards?
Or is that effect to bad to be run even as a 2off in decks like say, The Gate or Demon Stompy?

Not better, X can only be as high as the number of cards in their graveyard. If you have 10 mana and they only have 4 in their bin, you can only drain them for 4.

[LOurs]

I think that the 2 effects of suffer have to be considered seperatly :
> GY hate
> damage/life gain

Regarding GY, as many other, I believe that other GY hate are just better. Tormod/relic/faerie are much faster, leyline/planar are much better and even jailer, extirpate, grounds or trap do the job better in the right deck.

Regarding damage/life gain, to be consistent, suffer has to provide a consistent amount of damage (read 3/4 minimum). It implies that it should be considered as a 4/5 CMC spell which is HUGE in legacy (usualy a 4/5 cmc card is a winning game card a la Jace...). Plus it implies also that opponent's GY is full enough to allow a high X cost, which is often the case, but not always true.

All in all, suffer could be effective but the entire deck should play around it and I'm not sure it is that competitive. Maybe I'm wrong anyway, but the only legacy deck where I could see suffer eventualy good is Train Wreck as this deck is able to provide easly enough mana to make suffer really efficient : it is a good weapon at instant speed, supporting by hard discard to fill opponent GY and Coffer to provide mana gas. But in that deck, isnt Drain life better anyway ?

[Mystical_Jackass]

I actually think it'd be pretty desc in a U/B deck running Confidant packed with lots of disruption and hand discard/removal. It isn't much of a hit with Bob, you'd be more guaranteed to keep their gy fuller and it would offset a lot of the life loss from Bob.

It might also give a good reason to run Dark Ritual & Shade/Nyxathid as your beaters, since then your generally bad topdeck rituals could benefit nantuko shade and/or suffer the past. Just brainstorming some uses... I think even Tombstalker + suffer the past has its merits, completely shrinking goyf to squirrel size proportions :smile: The problem is always get the maximum use out of the card in a deck without making it a dead card, and I think blue splash might be the best I can come up with now... 'cause worst case scenario you just brainstorm and hide it away early on.

[ScatmanX]

Not better, X can only be as high as the number of cards in their graveyard. If you have 10 mana and they only have 4 in their bin, you can only drain them for 4.

I really don't see one of the decks I suggested reaching 10 mana while the opponent have only 4 cards in the yard. If it happens, you should win anyway...

I do like Mystical's suggestion of using along with Stalker to shrink Goyfs.
Also, it's good with extra rituals, and just 1 dmg with Bob.
Good points there.

[jrsthethird]

Just noting that it was inferior to Drain Life in that respect.

[EssKay]

But better in all other ways.

[Captain Hammer]

No one plays Drain Life.

What people play is Consume Spirit

And the only decks that really play it are Train Wreck and Mono Black Control (Cabal Coffers control).

But yes, I do think Suffer the Past is better than Consume Spirit in that deck in lots of matchups.

Filling your opponents yard isn't a problem for Coffers control, all the deck plays is removal and discard, both of which fill your opponents yard very quickly.

And Coffers control usually doesn't Consume Spirit for 20 anyways. It picks off the opponents life with it's creatures and finishes them off with Suffer the Past.

[Captain Hammer]

I actually think it'd be pretty desc in a U/B deck running Confidant packed with lots of disruption and hand discard/removal. It isn't much of a hit with Bob, you'd be more guaranteed to keep their gy fuller and it would offset a lot of the life loss from Bob.

It might also give a good reason to run Dark Ritual & Shade/Nyxathid as your beaters, since then your generally bad topdeck rituals could benefit nantuko shade and/or suffer the past. Just brainstorming some uses... I think even Tombstalker + suffer the past has its merits, completely shrinking goyf to squirrel size proportions :smile: The problem is always get the maximum use out of the card in a deck without making it a dead card, and I think blue splash might be the best I can come up with now... 'cause worst case scenario you just brainstorm and hide it away early on.

All great ideas. I would love to play with a deck like that.