Cephalid Breakfast non-combo

[Serbitar]

How is this even a more compact kill than Sky Hussar / Kiki-Jiki or Ghoul / Breath?

It takes 7 slots:
1 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Bridge from Below
1 Sun Titan
1 Blasting Station
2 Emrakul

Compare:
1 Sky Hussar
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Karmic Guide
1 Dread Return
2-3 Narcomoeba

or:
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
2 Dreadnoughts
1 Dread Return
2-3 Narcomoeba

[The_Red_Panda]

Actually, I'm the one who came up with the kill after a pretty looooong research. :frown:
The thing is, I didn't go for such a complicated one without a reason : it's the one that takes the fewest combo slots in the deck, a.k.a. possible dead cards in your hand. And even more important, it's naturally Tormod's/Relic/Ravenous Trap/Faerie Macabre/other grave-hate -resistant no matter how well your opponent plays, you just need 1 more Dread return in the sideboard. Cephalid Breakfast that passes through 75% of the grave-hate is kind of a dream, and it actually works.

Too bad it conflicts with loop and slow play rulings... :cry:


PS : Actually, you just need 2 Cabals to play your Dread return, the other 2 are bonuses or safety against grave-hate.

I'm confused as to how this gets around say, Tormod's Crypt. You start the loop, milling, and therapy-ing me. When we get to the part where you want to dread return, I let you sacrifice 2 zombies and a narco to target Sun titan with D-return. Now, if I'm not mistaken, when I crypt you, you're going to mill until you hit emrakul, shuffling your grave away, let the crypt resolve, and then start milling again still in response to your original Dread return. Can you then select a new target (the technically 'New' Sun titan) once it resolves? I would be under the impression that given that the sun titan is a 'new' sun titan (it has changed zones), your Dread Return would be countered on resolution due to a missing target.

Is that not the case?

Also, sorry your combo doesn't work around the slow play rules. For what it's worth, it seems like it's quite well designed.

[Mr.C]

Seems fun, post the deck so I can take it to a local tournament and see if I can get DQed for slow play. Then I'll post a rant online about how the rules need to be changed, because I was just setting up my combo.

[Eudes]

@ Serbitar : Ghoul is just so bad it's impossible to compare (it looses to a hundred cards/situations).
Kiki&co combo is generally 7 slots too, except it is very limited in the number of Cabals it can cast, and suffers from every single grave-hate, with no way of getting around. Here, with just 1 more Dread Return in the sideboard, you deal with most of the grave-hate as I said. And playing Emrakul as combo slots lets you play SnT as a no-brain plan B, which makes the deck completely insane.
Moreover, Kiki-combo kind of suffers from Emrakul hate post sideboard (Ensnaring Bridge, Karakas, etc...), which doesn't do anything against this version since you kill with infinite direct damage, without ever attacking.

I could go on forever, but I seriously think this version had 100 advantages over Kiki, except for the Slow Play part.


@ The_Red_Panda : The additional Dread Return in the sideboard allows you to do as you say and then cast your second Dread Return (since you play 4 Cabals, you have enough tokens) after the first one fizzled due to a missing target. If you play correctly, there is absolutely no way of making you lose on a Relic/Tormod's, not a single moment were you cannot respond an re-try after.


For those interested, the list was really fun to play, and honestly close to broken :

// Lands
1 [UNH] Island
4 [U] Underground Sea
3 [U] Tundra
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
4 [TO] Cephalid Illusionist
4 [SH] Nomads en-Kor
1 [SH] Shaman en-Kor
1 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [M11] Sun Titan
3 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [FUT] Bridge from Below
1 [FD] Blasting Station
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [DS] Echoing Truth

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 1 [TO] Crippling Fatigue
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away


The sideboard was still very rough, but the point was not having to deal with hate-grave, which is insane. :wink:

[Gheizen64]

Why exactly is this on the format discussion board? O_o

Nice interaction you got there anyway. Basically you avoid Crypt by shuffling your library with Emrakul in response to activation? Why running 3 of them then? To avoid getting it in hand and being sad for that?

[swoop]

Seems fun, post the deck so I can take it to a local tournament and see if I can get DQed for slow play. Then I'll post a rant online about how the rules need to be changed, because I was just setting up my combo.

As a Judge I need to respond to this. (just a lvl1 tho).

A few years back I've entered a lengthy discussion with a lvl 3 judge over "slowplay". What he said, and I do think its right, is that, by chosing
a certain deck, you already know how to play it, you do know plays, and how to win and even combo out if you are playing combo that is.

When you draw a hand, you have usually some ideas how will the matchup run out, how will you win regardless of the other player's actions.

so if you are having a 45min kill, that is slowplay, by all means.

[Eudes]

Why exactly is this on the format discussion board? O_o

Nice interaction you got there anyway. Basically you avoid Crypt by shuffling your library with Emrakul in response to activation? Why running 3 of them then? To avoid getting it in hand and being sad for that?

Apparently some moderator split the thread in the Rulings section.

To avoid grave-hate, you need 2 Ems, or your opponent will crack his hate in response to the trigger. The 3rd one was in test (Maverick wanted to test without it), to avoid problems if you have one in hand as you said, and to fine one more easily when you wanna go SnT.


Swoop, I honestly didn't get your point. I know my deck, I know how to play it, combo off and kill, but I have no choice but spend 45 minutes milling if my opponent doesn't scoop. It's not voluntarily taking my time, it's the very nature of the kill.

[swoop]

You can use shortcuts, if the opponent doesn't see how you can kill him and calls the judge, you can proceed and the judge will probably understand and use shortcuts to end the game.

Having a 45min turn/kill can be used even by OPPONENTS if they have a good board position (lets say 1-0 or 1-1) and want to go to the time limit by pushing you to play out the deck to the full.

Its a tricky situation, but what I meant to say, is that you can mill your opponent/do it faster/by using shortcuts.

I play aluren, its pretty straightforward but mostly when people tell me to show them how I kill them I just explain what I do and unless they explicitly want me to kill them and then I just go FF and kill em :)

[Zlatzman]

@swoop: the problem is that the order of the cards in the library is randomized, but certain requirements (i.e. the combo pieces are above the Emrakuls in the library) needs to be true in order to carry out the kill. As far as I know one cannot simply take the shortcut of assuming the requirements to be true, as this would require stacking the library where no proper stacking occurs, but I am certainly no judge and could be wrong.

[Cire]

Forgive me but how does the

1 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Bridge from Below
1 Sun Titan
1 Blasting Station
2 Emrakul

Kill work?

[freakish777]

Forgive me but how does the

1 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Bridge from Below
1 Sun Titan
1 Blasting Station
2 Emrakul

Kill work?

With Cephalid Illusion and Nomad En-Kor in play, you start milling your deck. You mill Narcomoeba at some point. Then you mill Bridge + Cabal Therapy (you're probably missing the Therapies).

You flash back Therapy, sacrificing Narco. You get a Zombie Token. Then you start milling again. Hit Emrakul.

Repeat until you have 3 Zombie Tokens (you have no more Therapies at this point, or 1, they're RFG).

Mill until you hit Sun Titan, Blasting Station and Dread Return. Flashback DR target Sun Titan. Sun Titan bring back Blasting station. Start milling again. Now whenever you hit Narcomoeba you can activate Blasting Station (infinite damage).

[wolfstorm]

You could put in protean hulk to make the last part of the combo not take as long, since you can d return p hulk than sac it w/ therapy and while his trigger is on the stack you can mill your library in a way that sharuum/sun titan is in the library and the blasting station is in the gy.

[pippo84]

With Cephalid Illusion and Nomad En-Kor in play, you start milling your deck. You mill Narcomoeba at some point. Then you mill Bridge + Cabal Therapy (you're probably missing the Therapies).

You flash back Therapy, sacrificing Narco. You get a Zombie Token. Then you start milling again. Hit Emrakul.

Repeat until you have 3 Zombie Tokens (you have no more Therapies at this point, or 1, they're RFG).

Mill until you hit Sun Titan, Blasting Station and Dread Return. Flashback DR target Sun Titan. Sun Titan bring back Blasting station. Start milling again. Now whenever you hit Narcomoeba you can activate Blasting Station (infinite damage).

The killing part is really too slow! You could cut Sun Titan and Blasting Station. Add 2 Sharuum and 1 Altar of Dementia. You will then mill the opponent's library with 1 Dread Return and 1 Bridge from Below. Or else you will create infinite tokens and just attack next turn (if you don't want to add Anger)...

My thoughts! :cool:

[troopatroop]

A few years back I've entered a lengthy discussion with a lvl 3 judge over "slowplay". What he said, and I do think its right, is that, by chosing a certain deck, you already know how to play it, you do know plays, and how to win and even combo out if you are playing combo that is.

I think that this is shortsighted. Say I borrow a deck from my friend before the tournament, and don't even look at what it is. I am allowed to do this, going into the tournament with zero understanding of the deck I'm playing. Looking at my opening hand, I can piece alot more together, but assuming that all tournament players have an understanding of their deck is something that the RULES shouldn't reference.

This particular combo will work every single time, and that's a fact. Eventually, you will mill the pieces you need before Emrakul. It's also immune to graveyard hate, making it functionally superior to the other packages. I really dislike that a Judge can accuse you of "Slow Play", when you are doing a very specific and deliberate action, toward a 100% chance of victory.

[wolfstorm]

The killing part is really too slow! You could cut Sun Titan and Blasting Station. Add 2 Sharuum and 1 Altar of Dementia. You will then mill the opponent's library with 1 Dread Return and 1 Bridge from Below. Or else you will create infinite tokens and just attack next turn (if you don't want to add Anger)...

My thoughts! :cool:



I don't see how this is any faster than blasting station w/ +1 extra Sharuum? and if anything infinite mill is weaker than infinite damage, specially considering the damage can pick off true believer (not that its played much) and other creatures of that sort that might be inhibiting targeting the opponent.

If anything though Protein hulk does make the combo faster/easier to pull off within time constraints since you will only need 2 different things max in the graveyard at any time while comboing.

[swoop]

I think that this is shortsighted. Say I borrow a deck from my friend before the tournament, and don't even look at what it is. I am allowed to do this, going into the tournament with zero understanding of the deck I'm playing. Looking at my opening hand, I can piece alot more together, but assuming that all tournament players have an understanding of their deck is something that the RULES shouldn't reference.

This particular combo will work every single time, and that's a fact. Eventually, you will mill the pieces you need before Emrakul. It's also immune to graveyard hate, making it functionally superior to the other packages. I really dislike that a Judge can accuse you of "Slow Play", when you are doing a very specific and deliberate action, toward a 100% chance of victory.

I personally agree with you, but what I said are words of a Level3 judge.

Also you wouldn't pick up a random deck at a higher REL (Competitive lets say, ptq or GP) but at lower levels its okay I guess.. at higher levels you do need to proceed alot faster in a combo.