Legacy, Summer 2010: Most Bannable Card?

[ktkenshinx]

Legacy, Summer 2010: Most Bannable Card in Legacy?
(not that they will touch it)
Part 2

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THE QUESTION
What is the MOST bannable card in Legacy?

THE DISCLAIMER
NOT that anything is going to be banned or needs immediate banning

Where is the "Nothing" option?
We are trying to determine what the most likely candidate for banning is. That does not mean the card is getting banned, or that it should ever be banned.

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While reading through the "Is Legacy Too Broken" thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18571-
Is-Legacy-too-broken), I stumbled across a request to recreate the August 25, 2009 poll about the most bannable card in Legacy. Started by Dr. Jones, this thread went on for a whopping 25 pages, and had approximately 200 voters. The original thread can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation.

This initial poll, however, is quite outdated. Including such absurd options as Standstill, Phyrexian Dreadnought, and Natural Order, the data here might be considered a bit oudated. Moreover, the metagame has made drastic changes since this early poll. Mystical Tutor was legal. Tarmogoyf-based aggro decks were everywhere. CounterTop midrange decks were consistently taking tournaments. In light of this old 2009 metagame, it is perhaps unsurprising that SDT won out in "most bannable card" with 103 votes. Counterbalance, Goyf, and LED were the next closest contenders, each with 34, 46, and 35 votes respectively.

Things have changed. New fears are on the horizon. New articles have called for card bannings, and various players from the community have spoken out in favor or in opposition of these suggestions. How does that same poll look now, a full year later? Let us find out. This topic deserves a new thread all its own due to recent conversation about the issue. It is a fundamentally different question than the one posted in 2009 (Dr.Jones original thread), and thus it needs its own new home.

I have included these cards on the poll due to their presence in a variety of articles, their recurrence in banning/metagame health threads, and their general tournament prevalence. The candidates are:

Brainstorm: Heavily played card in both combo and many blue decks
Counterbalance: The enabling card of the CounterTop engine.
Force of Will: The glue that holds the format together? Or the wedge that drives it apart?
Lion's Eye Diamond: A flatly unfair piece of combo decks.
Sensei's Divining Top: The other enabler of CounterTop. Also causes time problems in rounds.
Show and Tell: At 3 mana and a blue card, is SnT too much of a danger?
Survival of the Fittest: Making a meteoric rise in recent tournaments. Safe or unsafe?
Tarmogoyf: Magic's most efficient beater. The old question stands: is he TOO efficient?
Tendrils of Agony: The core of all good, modern combo decks.
Wasteland: An overperforming, hyper-versatile bullet.

Some cards did not make the cut.

Imperial Recruiter: Prohibitively expensive. Does not always post consistently broken results, even though its home deck is quite solid.
Entomb: Reanimator has been weakened, but not crippled, by Mystical Tutor. GY hate is easily sideboarded, and the deck itself has not been performing too well recently.
Life from the Loam: Lands and Aggro Loam are solid decks, but not broken ones. This engine is never too unfair, and enables 2 interesting strategies for the format.
Dark Ritual: It's too easy to list all the combo cards on the above poll. I chose the biggest culprits, not the small (albeit critical) engine components.
Wild Nacatl: Ari Lax suggested it. It was a dumb suggestion, and it has not been backed up by recent tournament performances.
Ad Nauseam: A powerful engine, but really not the big problem with Storm. Tendrils is obviously a bigger problem, and LED is obviously more consistently broken.

So those are the cards in questions. Feel free to post your rankings, your justifications, and your discussions alongside your poll.

-ktkenshinx-

[ramanujan]

I voted for Brainstorm. I do not believe that it a card that will be banned. I would much rather see fetchlands get banned than anything on this list. I own them, they benefit every deck I play, but I would love to see the design space that would open up if fetchlands were banned (and which decks would suffer). Without a doubt, fetchlands slow down play pretty dramatically. Anyway, I feel like brainstorm is the most likely candidate to get the axe, and that it is unlikely to get it anytime soon.

[Dark Ritual]

Most likely card to get banned is LED because wotc hates combo. Second most bannable card is brainstorm, because all blue decks play brainstorm as a 4 of automatically sans the new UG madness survival deck which is arguably more green than blue because it runs survival which you absolutely need green mana for to consistently abuse the card. Brainstorm also helps combo for obvious reasons.

Counterbalance is not broken enough to get the axe and neither is sensei's top. The "slow down rounds" argument is bullshit in legacy because the format is blazingly fast with cards like goyf, steppe lynx, wild nacatl, and terravore being able to kill an opponent in under 5 turns when backed up with burn, their own countertop lock, or other creatures that can also beat down. And when combo decks are played the round is typically short due to combo decks usually winning by turn 5 or simply losing to the opposing deck.

Show and tell is not broken enough to warrant banning. 2 card combos such as SnT + emrakul win you the game sure but so does painter's servant + grindstone and that isn't dominating in any way. And they are also answerable with oblivion ring, karakas, or just killing the opponent afterwards with burn or creature beatdown.

Survival of the fittest is a really good card but I doubt it will get banned. People should realize that it is easily answerable by many cards in the format such as meddling mage, pithing needle, k grip, EXTIRPATE, faerie macabre, or crypt/relic. Any GY hate actually. Also qasali pridemage really hurts survival. The card is safe.

Tarmogoyf will never get the banhammer despite me wishing for it endlessly in the middle of the night. He partially holds combo in check with his power getting in two swings makes ad nauseam a lot worse typically. He is a vanilla creature that is efficient true but he isn't TOO efficient.

Tendrils of Agony the card isn't the problem the enablers are such as LED, dark ritual, and other cards. Banning tendrils would be quite stupid and wotc knows this so they won't ban it.

Wasteland is safe. Sure the game would be "more fun" without it since people hate getting land hosed but it wouldn't be healthy for the format to lose something so format defining. It also hates on combo so that is a valid reason to keep it in.

[AngryTroll]

Where is the 'None' option? None of those cards need banning.

[Aggro_zombies]

Where is the 'None' option? None of those cards need banning.
Incorrect, sir! Vengevine Survival made up 25% of the top 16 of the latest 5k! It is too dominant!

[tsabo_tavoc]

Mystical Tutor banned and the format is still heavily blue?

Ponder and Preordain are pretty good cantrips?

Discard is underperforming since 199x?

Get my vote, BRAINSTORM!

[Shawon]

I voted for Top. With Counterbalance in play, it forms a soft-lock that is very unfun. Unfun as it is, though, it is not unstoppable. On the other hand, Sensei's Divining Top is very inconvenient to play against in tournaments where rounds are timed. But my primary reason for voting Top is that fact that it's so ubiquitous as a card. I feel it is too efficient at what it does for its cost. Furthermore, its invulnerability to generic artifact removal doesn't help either. I like library-manipulation cards though, but only if they are niche cards that find their home in specific decks. One example is Mirri's Guile which finds a comfortable home in Enchantress.

[ktkenshinx]

Where is the 'None' option? None of those cards need banning.
I too do not think that any of the cards need banning. The question is, however, which is MOST bannable, with the added qualification of "NOT that they will touch it".


Most likely card to get banned is LED because wotc hates combo. Second most bannable card is brainstorm, because all blue decks play brainstorm as a 4 of automatically sans the new UG madness survival deck which is arguably more green than blue because it runs survival which you absolutely need green mana for to consistently abuse the card. Brainstorm also helps combo for obvious reasons.
I also voted for LED, although the card is really quite safe. Recent T8s are tending heavily away from Storm combo, and even non T8 players seem to be avoiding the archetype. That said, Wizards really hates combo, especially any combo that can be deemed "non-interactive". I can already see the idiotic justification posted on some Friday in the future:

"LED looks just like Black Lotus! It turns out that the "drawback" isn't even a drawback in the right decks! Combo is b0nkerz!"

Whatever. Hopefully Wizards can actually do some data analysis and Legacy player consultation about bannings in the next year instead of wildly speculating about card prevalence and power. Indeed, I was hesitant to make a thread like this, lest Wizards decide that this is the go-to place for information and not read the multiple disclaimers about what we are actually voting on.

-ktkenshinx-

[Kage]

Most likely card to get banned is LED because wotc hates combo.

This, though I think banning anything from the list is unnecessary.



Incorrect, sir! Vengevine Survival made up 25% of the top 16 of the latest 5k! It is too dominant!

True dat!!! BAN BASKING ROOTWALLAS!

[Killing Joke]

I voted for Sea Troll because its obviously the worst troll ever, so definitely the most bannable.

[xTrainx]

The whole 'round time' argument, is, in my opinion, a ton of bullshit. The format is a fast one; what with combo decks, Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk...the control decks will be just as slow without Sensei's Divining Top. Top enables an archetype, helps to keep combo going, and can be used as a streamliner in virtually any deck. Leave SDT alone.

Tarmogoyf, although he is powerful, IS just a vanilla creature. Perhaps some sort of reprint might be nice in order to drop his value(not sure how they could do this without angering people though; maybe in an FTV set), but he doesn't need a ban.


Tendrils of Agony - although Storm decks ultimately rely on this card, it really isn't the issue. Sure, Storm was a retarded mechanic, but since it's here, lets not half the power of combo. Again. Banning an enabler might be a better choice.

Wasteland is completely safe. It helps slow down combo decks(which Wizards seems to love doing), it punishes greedy decks for being greedy(no 5CC in this format, thank you very much), and can easily be played around by fetching basics, or just playing basics. If Wasteland is too big of an issue, the issue isn't the card - its the people who have to have their dual lands.

Counterbalance is a tricky one. The ability is fine by itself, but with Sensei's Divining Top it becomes a pain; virtually the only good way to deal with it is through Krosan Grip in response to them finishing up with Sensei's Divining Top at the end of their turn(they will have put what they want to draw on the top of their deck, instead of leaving the three there for the blind flip @ Grip).

Survival is easily hated out, and if the Vengevine strategy is too much, just play gravehate. Don't worry about Survival.

Show and Tell isn't busted; or anywhere near it. Like the guy above - Painter/Stone is a two card combo as well, and also happens to be one that doesn't need a turn to finish you off with. Painter/Stone can play Painter, Grindstone, and Activate in the same turn. Show and Tell into Emrakul needs a turn before Emrakul can attack. Also answerable with Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict, Karakas, Oblivion Ring, Maranga, etc. It's fine.

Now to the bannables - Brainstorm streamlines and cantrips for combo decks, and is played in virtually every deck that plays blue. I don't really have an issue with the card, but it is bannable because of its extreme utility value.

Lion's Eye Diamond - Huge enabler for storm decks. LED + Infernal Tutor is one of the cornerstones of Storm decks, and the deck needs the additional mana from LED more often than not. The deck could function with Lion's Eye Diamond, but it would be incredibly difficult, and would become slower(which, in my opinion, is healthier - Turn 1-2 kills aren't fun at all). However, the deck can goldfish to that same turn number just as easily, and can still do Doomsday stuff, and can still win through Ad Nauseam. This would have been a better choice for banning than Mystical Tutor(although Tutor had other problems, and probably needed to go as well).

[Eddy Wally]

If any of these cards will end up banned, it will be Lion's Eye Diamond. They'll probably offer us a five paragraph long explanation about how broken Black Lotus is and how similar LED is to that card.

[johanessen]

Can you explain why Natural Order was an absurd option? The 'tinker' version of legacy is allways dangerous. Brings one of the greatests creatures (Maybe now is better Emrakul) but still.

Anyways my vote goes for sensei's divining top, as allways.

[Cabal_chan]

Whatever. Hopefully Wizards can actually do some data analysis and Legacy player consultation about bannings in the next year instead of wildly speculating about card prevalence and power. Indeed, I was hesitant to make a thread like this, lest Wizards decide that this is the go-to place for information and not read the multiple disclaimers about what we are actually voting on.

-ktkenshinx-

Unfortunately, WotC seems quite content make up facts about players and use the worst possible methods in order to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion. Player consultation would be nothing more than PR lip service(remember the 'consultation' about the Reserved List? Went reaaaaaaaaaal well didn't it?)

That said, I voted for CBalance for the same reason, I presume, peopled voted for LED(don't like seeing it hit play).

[FoolofaTook]

Can't be LED or SDT on power levels because neither of those cards is a dominant card in the current meta. If CounterTop was doing better lately you could argue SDT, but it's not. If SDT was penetrating more winning lists than just CounterTop you could also make an argument, but really it's not other than the odd Doomsday list. LED shows up in what, 10% of winning decks? Less?

If you buy the argument that Force of Will holds the format together then it can't be Force of Will, despite the fact that Force of Will shows up in a large minority, if not actual majority, of winning decks. If you also buy the argument that Force of Will is the best card in the format and makes blue dominant that leaves you in a quandary as to what to ban to bring it and blue down some. I think Brainstorm, which is clearly one of the 5 best cards in the format and almost always present beside Force of Will, is the logical choice. There are plenty of less abusive methods for blue to filter cards at this point, many of which would be snapped up by other colors if they were available. Banning Brainstorm would re-level the format without exposing it to combo winter or aggro summer or any of the other possibilities that people like to bring up when cards like Force of Will and LED are in the ban discussion.

[Gheizen64]

Imho, it has no sense to ban something now. If had to ban only limited on columbus, i'd ban something to stop the blue dominance, namely Brainstorm or Tendril. Countertop is stupid and boring, but has a tendency on pushing mid-range strat, a thing that i consider positive, even if said mid-range strat are totally hosed by any kind of combo. So... meh, i dunno. If i have to guess, the most likely card to be banned now is Tendril, for many reasons. It pushes blue and punish mid-range decks and non-blue strat. Also, people would probably take better a ban on it than a ban on good old favorite Brainstorm.
Also, it is the main culprit in storm, and if this isn't banned now, it's pretty likely that in due time something else will be banned to "slow" combo like LED since any big presence of combo in a meta isn't considered good by WotC (and by me, if said combo is tendril-storm zzz). And i'd prefer to keep LED or ritual (and brainstorm for that part) in the format more than Tendril for sure.

[Fuzzy]

I voted for Show and Tell. When the next collection be printed, we will always look for that 25 mana 40/40 Flying Protection from Kors and Fungus guy made for 8 years old boys and think "How we can cheat with this?".

But I fear Natural Order even more than SnT. Not only because with this you don't need to have the evil monster in your hand or because you just need run one copy of the creature. I fear it because all you need is a fetchland or a Tarmogoyf, aka "Playing Magic the Gathering".

[sigfig8]

Looking at some recent tournament results, I would rather have banned Aether Vial. Goblins and Merfolk run rampant these days. And cheating into play the majority of nonland cards in one's deck seems pretty overpowered.

That being said, I picked Top simply because of the impact it has on round time limits. Besides, combo already took a beating from Mystical Tutor, let's hurt a different deck for a change. Oh, and banning Brainstorm just ruins the format.

[Vacrix]

Honestly if I had to choose something... SnT. Nothing should really be banned, but SnT-->Emrakul/Prog is just stupid. Everybody and his mom can do it and it wins the game on its own. Its idiot proof.. and nobody but idiots like idiot proof combos.

EDIT:
Storm combo would still be good without LED, especially since everyone would expect it to die. QSI is competitive LED-less storm combo, though most people just opt to play TES because its easier and you don't have to deal with blind draw4's.

[Rune]

Top and LED are the most bannable cards for sure, but I personally wouldn't be sad to see Survival go since I find the combo with Vengevine too obnoxious and idiot-proof.

[anonymos]

I don't think any of them are actually ban worthy.

I voted for SDT simply because it helps dumb people stall out games to time. I guess that could make them smart depending on how you look at it I guess, but you know what I mean.

[Fuzzy]

I personally wouldn't be sad to see Survival go since I find the combo with Vengevine too obnoxious and idiot-proof.

Yeah, but still fair. Show and Tell is like Flash with Sumonning Sickness.

[GtF]

Show and Tell gets my vote. It's the closest thing to Flash in the current metagame. Still 2 turns slower and not worth of a ban, but any combo component that gets along with force of will to win the game is the de facto number 1 in my book.

[Leftconsin]

I voted Survival for a couple reasons. First off I know it shouldn't be banned, because it is easily hated with common board cards, and it is the flavor of the month this August. Unfortunately it is the flavor of the month this August and the people making decisions may have been overlooking a lot into the Minneapolis 5K to see the health of the format.However I think the worst thing it has going against it is it is a recurring tutor. And we all know how much the decision makers frown on efficient tutors.

[Amon Amarth]

Can we maybe add a "Nothing" option because, you know, perhaps nothing needs to be banned?

[ktkenshinx]

Can we maybe add "Nothing" option because, you know, perhaps nothing needs to be banned?
The question is not "what needs banning." The question, quite clearly, is "What is the most bannable card in Legacy" with the added disclaimer "NOT that Wizards is going to ban anything." Because that is the question, "nothing" is not a valid candidate. If the option were between Monk Realist and War Priest of Thune, the latter would be more bannable, even though neither deserves banning. I have edited the first post to clearly show the question and that "nothing" is really not an option.

I am surprised that SDT is the number one contender for most bannable card in Legacy. CounterTop has been underperforming recently, which might admittedly have something to do with combo's fall after Tutor's banning; this was a solid matchup in the past. This just serves as a testament to one criteria that players are probably using in their votes: annoyance factor. SDT is just an obnoxious card to play against. It takes a lot of time, enables stupid plays, and has a game-stopping synergy. It is also interesting that people find this control card less interactive than LED/Tendrils, a more proactive non-interactive Magic situation (combo).

-ktkenshinx-

[majikal]

Show and Tell gets my vote. As long as WotC keeps printing bigger and better fatties, this card is dangerous.

edit: Not that I think anything needs to be done at the moment, but this one has the most potential to become broken.

Survival of the Fittest does not need to be banned. While it is a very strong engine, it is by no means dominant. The thing with UG Madness is that it's the flavor of the month. Certainly it made up 25% of the top 16 at Minneapolis, but I'm certain that the deck was extremely overrepresented due to the level of coverage it got during GP: Columbus and the fact that most of the cards in it are pretty cheap. I would even be willing to bet that it was the most-played deck. Give it a couple of months and it will die down.

[Humphrey]

Mystical Tutor banned and the format is still heavily blue?

Ponder and Preordain are pretty good cantrips?

Discard is underperforming since 199x?

Get my vote, BRAINSTORM!

+1

[Amon Amarth]

The question is not "what needs banning." The question, quite clearly, is "What is the most bannable card in Legacy" with the added disclaimer "NOT that Wizards is going to ban anything." Because that is the question, "nothing" is not a valid candidate. If the option were between Monk Realist and War Priest of Thune, the latter would be more bannable, even though neither deserves banning. I have edited the first post to clearly show the question and that "nothing" is really not an option.

I am surprised that SDT is the number one contender for most bannable card in Legacy. CounterTop has been underperforming recently, which might admittedly have something to do with combo's fall after Tutor's banning; this was a solid matchup in the past. This just serves as a testament to one criteria that players are probably using in their votes: annoyance factor. SDT is just an obnoxious card to play against. It takes a lot of time, enables stupid plays, and has a game-stopping synergy. It is also interesting that people find this control card less interactive than LED/Tendrils, a more proactive non-interactive Magic situation (combo).

-ktkenshinx-

Fair enough. I voted for Tarmogoyf because I want to play Grizzly Bears, and Striped Bears!

[Rune]

Yeah, but still fair. Show and Tell is like Flash with Sumonning Sickness.

I don't really think it's that fair. Before Vengevine was printed you would be in a pretty bad spot if you were facing down a resolved Survival, but you would still have a fighting chance. If Survival resolves nowadays, all counterspells you might draw afterwards automatically become blanks and most decks basically just lose the game in 0-2 turns to the uncounterable flying haste attack. Graveyard hate is just a minor speed bump for the deck and is easy to play around. Extirpate works, but that's not a card you're terribly excited to play and it doesn't stop them from just tutoring for their best creatures. Sure, Krosan Grip takes care of the enchantment, but that's a 3cc answer to a 2cc card that does nothing when you're on the draw and your opponent goes turn 1 Hierarch + turn 2 Survival.

Now it's not just an insane card advantage engine/infinite Eladamri's Call, it's basically "1G: You win", which is just stupid.

I'd like to see how many UG Madness decks there were at the 5k, but 5 copies of the deck in top 16 seems like a lot in any case.


Show and Tell isn't broken in my opinion. There are just way too many answers (even maindeck) to Emrakul and he's really the only exciting thing to dump into play. The answers include all of the Diabolic Edict-ish spells, Knight of the Reliquary (Karakas), Humility, Oblivion Ring, Stingscourger, Sower of Temptation and so on... And let's not forget that Show and Tell allows you to put any of these cards into play for free. Also, the Survival decks have a powerful backup plan if their "combo piece" is dealt with, the Show and Tell decks do not.

The sky isn't falling (yet!), but it seems like Survival pilots are having a disturbingly easy time x-0'ing whatever tournament they play in (atleast that's is my general impression from reading the various SotF threads), but then again, if more people played 4c Allies there wouldn't be a problem!

/rant

[Bardo]

If I could vote by not voting (N/A), I would do that.

As I see it, all of those cards help make Legacy what it is -- which I find to be a very fun and balanced format.

Zapping any of those cards would harm an otherwise perfectly fine format.

[majikal]

I love how every time a deck does marginally well at a single tournament, everyone flips the fuck out and starts waving the banhammer around.

[ummon]

I love how every time a deck does marginally well at a single tournament, everyone flips the fuck out and starts waving the banhammer around.

Exactly. I honestly don't give a damn what today's latest and greatest card is. The important thing is to ensure that a card does not become too entrenched in legacy to the point of becoming unplayable.

[Leftconsin]

This is for most bannable card after all. I'm still expecting a big
Standard Extended Legacy Vintage
No Changes

[raudo]

I think none of these cards are bannable. Counterbalance and Top are just boring, so if I had to say something it is Top.
Rather ban Vengevine than Survival which is core of many reliable not too powerful decks.

I personally would ban too hard to get and expensive Portal cards like Loyal Retainers.

[kinda]

I wouldn't ban anything...but if I had too it would be brainstorm. It's the strongest card in legacy and an enabler for top, led, and snt which are the top 3 on the poll...it's also been played in tier 1 decks alongside all of the other cards on the poll.

[HokusSchmokus]

Incorrect, sir! Vengevine Survival made up 25% of the top 16 of the latest 5k! It is too dominant!

Well I think it's really just because the deck i so "new" and "innovative" and not because it's power.also, it's a blast to play.
But in a few weeks, players will get used to VV- Survival and start to caope with it. Less T16's then, i guess.

[Tacosnape]

Just for this list, they could print a 1CC Instant that searched for three cards, put them into your hand, left off the "shuffle your library afterwards" clause so you could set the deck any way you wanted to, had the relentless rats ability of having more than four copies in a deck, and also made the opposing player give you his car/hot girlfriend, and I'd -still- pick Lion's Eye Diamond here. I've been in favor of banning this and only this for the last several years.

That said, Sensei's Divining Top is also very close in my book and would also make a solid ban.

Everything else on that list should absolutely stay under all circumstances.

[CorpT]

I am surprised that SDT is the number one contender for most bannable card in Legacy. CounterTop has been underperforming recently, which might admittedly have something to do with combo's fall after Tutor's banning; this was a solid matchup in the past. This just serves as a testament to one criteria that players are probably using in their votes: annoyance factor. SDT is just an obnoxious card to play against. It takes a lot of time, enables stupid plays, and has a game-stopping synergy. It is also interesting that people find this control card less interactive than LED/Tendrils, a more proactive non-interactive Magic situation (combo).

-ktkenshinx-

Clearly this. Nothing on the list is ban worthy. But SDT is by far the most irritating and un-fun to play against. The time factor of SDT is also another pretty big issue.

[Tacosnape]

Clearly this. Nothing on the list is ban worthy. But SDT is by far the most irritating and un-fun to play against. The time factor of SDT is also another pretty big issue.

It's also present in quite a few combo decks. Just saying.

[Amon Amarth]

It's also present in quite a few combo decks. Just saying.

Eh, its not something that would harm them much; you can easily replace it with Ponder or Preordain or whatever. It would, however, hurt control decks like Landstill and co.

[ryO!]

Sea Troll
Wall of Tears
Island
Blue
damn those topics are so annoying and pointless . . .
give it a rest legacy is just fine, u should spend more time developping and testing archetypes rather than whining every now and then.

[pippo84]

None. The format is just fine as it is atm.

I know this wasn't the answer you wanted, but this thread is nonsense.

Why try and fix something that isn't broken?

[kiblast]

None. The format is just fine as it is atm.

I know this wasn't the answer you wanted, but this thread is nonsense.

Why try and fix something that isn't broken?

Up.

and , for god's sake, i want the names of the 3 people who voted FOW and the 2 that voted Wasteland. :-(

[Piceli89]

Show and Tell, because it just takes the lowest level of motory skill to flip Emrakul for 90 degrees to win the game. It's just simply idiotic, and don't fuck up with shitty Tendrils-ban discussion because this is way more dangerous, considered it's played in a deck full of countermagic.

And no one wants to run shitty cards like Karakas and Diabolic Edict just as countermeasures for it.

[Odd Mutation]

No bannings are needed, the format is fine. I wish these screams and polls for bannings would just go away...

Robrecht

[Sims]

No bannings are needed, the format is fine. I wish these screams and polls for bannings would just go away...

Robrecht

And this is the scary part about this thread. There are disclaimers all over the poll and thread saying "They aren't banning anything, we don't necessarily think anything needs banning, but if they had to ban 1 card what card do you think is the most bannable"..

We're not crying for bannings...well, most of us aren't. We're not thinking the format as broken or needs fixing. It's a thought exercise. But the fact that our own members aren't reading the poll enough to understand that worries me, as that means people at WotC that make these desicions probably don't read anything on any legacy forum except "this is unfun" or "i lost to this, i hate it" and they get their panties in a twist thinking that the format is terrible and people hate it so they have to ban something to fix it. That is what we don't want.

[MMogg]

Up.

and , for god's sake, i want the names of the 3 people who voted FOW and the 2 that voted Wasteland. :-(

I voted Force of Will. Now what?

[jrsthethird]

Up.

and , for god's sake, i want the names of the 3 people who voted FOW

Dr Jones is one of them.


Show and Tell, because it just takes the lowest level of motory skill to flip Emrakul for 90 degrees to win the game. It's just simply idiotic, and don't fuck up with shitty Tendrils-ban discussion because this is way more dangerous, considered it's played in a deck full of countermagic.

And no one wants to run shitty cards like Karakas and Diabolic Edict just as countermeasures for it.

But not Natural Order? Because Natural order is a 10/10 Pro-everything for 4 mana. Show and Tell does absolutely nothing for you unless Emrakul is in your hand already, and your opponent can just drop Oblivion Ring, Sower of Temptation, Humility, or any other permanent answer and ruin your day; or they can just play Jace.

Also, Diabolic Edict and Karakas are not shitty cards. Edict is awesome creature removal that just doesn't see enough play, and Karakas combos with Vendilion Clique or Mangara for game-breaking shenanigans.

[morgan_coke]

The problem with SnT/NO isn't the cards themselves. It's the increasingly powerful and stupid uncastable high cc monsters wotc prints. Wizards pretty much auto includes anti-reanimation clauses on most of these things. They need to stop doing that and start including phage clauses on them instead. If they don't, then eventually SnT/NO will become bannable problems. But they aren't right now.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Voted for Force of Will. Not because I think its broken or what not. But if I had to pick one card, I might as well make my job as a storm player easier.

[Odd Mutation]

And this is the scary part about this thread. There are disclaimers all over the poll and thread saying "They aren't banning anything, we don't necessarily think anything needs banning, but if they had to ban 1 card what card do you think is the most bannable"..

We're not crying for bannings...well, most of us aren't. We're not thinking the format as broken or needs fixing. It's a thought exercise.

Then what's the point? What thought exercise? You want to figure out what the most important/dangerous card is? Or what people think is the best card? What card they hate most? Then change the title of the poll.

I did read your poll and thought you meant: "Not that they will touch it... even though I wish they should"

Robrecht

[Sims]

2010: What is the most bannable card in Legacy? (NOT that they will touch it)

Seems fairly self explanatory. What do YOU think the most bannable card is in legacy and why. Not that Wizards, or anyone, is going to ban it.

Do you hate Top because it chews time on the clock? Do you think SnT decks are too strong because they're backed by FoW and it's too easy to assemble SnT + Emrakul?

It's a poll to see what the general opinion of the site is on the issue of what is most bannable and to examine why. Seems like a thought exercise to me, and the name of the poll doesn't scream "The format is borken, playze halp!"

[ktkenshinx]

No bannings are needed, the format is fine. I wish these screams and polls for bannings would just go away...

Robrecht

A lot of people are saying this here, and while I agree with their overall sentiment, you have to understand that it does NOT go without saying. Just the other week, there was a 10 page thread on whether Legacy was "too broken", along with another couple page thread of supplementary data. Threads like that exist because not everyone agrees. Moreover, I am consistently confused as to how people think that this poll and the votes within it constitute a "scream" for banning. It would be difficult for me to be more clear in my opening post about the question's intent. This is not a scream for a ban. This is not even a hushed whisper for a ban. It is an exercise in determining Legacy's most bannable cards. In investigating this, we can gain insight into the format, what makes it tick, and what makes it fall apart.

For instance, I find it interesting that the anti combo people, specifically those against LED and Tendrils, are not the majority. In fact, the high prevalence of SnT hatred indicates that this combo feels far more unfair than LED. Why? LED is a fairly well-represented player in tournaments. More people consistently encounter LED-based combo decks than they do SnT ones (deckcheck.net as source). But SnT is getting a disproportionate number of detractors, given this information. That leads me to believe that the non-interactivity and idiot-proof nature of SnT (and more generally, combo pieces) is what gives cards undue hatred. Sure, LED has more votes, but relative to its history throughout the last 4+ years of Legacy, that is expected. SnT is only now beginning to shine with Progenitus, Iona, Emrakul, and Dream Halls/Hive Mind to a lesser extent.

-ktkenshinx-

[Iranon]

Of these, probably Show and Tell... that card is most obviously trying to do something unfair, and under weird situations I could image that it has the potential to warp a metagame where the dominant deck and anti-decks are similar ('To beat Show&Tell, play half-assed Show&Tell - you can win off theirs but don't rely on it yourself').
Highly theoretical though; currently all are fine.

Many of the others are simply 'first among equals' or require considerable design concessions. Force is less bannable than ever with the influx of manaless silver bullets for the sideboard.

[SpikeyMikey]

Show and Tell, because it just takes the lowest level of motory skill to flip Emrakul for 90 degrees to win the game. It's just simply idiotic, and don't fuck up with shitty Tendrils-ban discussion because this is way more dangerous, considered it's played in a deck full of countermagic.

And no one wants to run shitty cards like Karakas and Diabolic Edict just as countermeasures for it.

SnT isn't really scary. I've raced SnT --> Emi before. Emi himself is really more of a problem. He's too good of a threat when combined with hideaways. Because of the vast number of strategies out there, it's too hard to construct a deck that can deal with a 0 turn clock that shares no weaknesses with other 0 turn clocks like Tendrils or Belcher. That having been said, I think goyf would open up more design space than any other card. Brainstorm is heavily overrated and LED and Tendrils have been fine for years.

[Gheizen64]

Don't understand the hate on SnT seriously... Emrakul on Turn3 is not THAT hard to race especially considering you get to attack first with the free creature you get from SnT. Also with SnT you have to play 8-10 creatures in your deck that you can't cast otherwise, and playing some big creatures on your part negate most of the benefits of SnT, not to say it's shithorrible if your opponent play SnT himself, a combo deck like aluren/dream hall/hive mind , bounce/destroy creatures, survival or even crappy cards like Duplicant/Whipcorder. Natural order is way more scary imho since you don't have to play ~8 useless cards in your deck, but just 1 or 2 and you don't have as many cons, except it isn't blue.


SnT isn't really scary. I've raced SnT --> Emi before. Emi himself is really more of a problem. He's too good of a threat when combined with hideaways. Because of the vast number of strategies out there, it's too hard to construct a deck that can deal with a 0 turn clock that shares no weaknesses with other 0 turn clocks like Tendrils or Belcher. That having been said, I think goyf would open up more design space than any other card. Brainstorm is heavily overrated and LED and Tendrils have been fine for years.

Hideways are slow and hateable by any color, wasteland, sinkhole, Pithing needle, Tsabo's web, etc... if anything it's storm that close much more strategies by forcing you to play blue and heavy permission or just have a 10% matchup.

EDIT: probably misunderstood your post.

[naurthal]

@gheizen, I think SpikeyMikey mean that there are so many strategies trying to cheat emrakul into play(doomsday, hideaway, sneak attack, SnT, retainers, using elves to produce loads of mana) that it becames too hard to fight every possible strategy, while at the same time defending yourself against other archetypes.


Emrakul on Turn3 is not THAT hard to race especially considering you get to attack first with the free creature you get from SnT.

Wow, this sounds so much like "Wrath of god is not THAT good especially considering they kill their own creatures too." O.o Most decks don't have anything good to put into play with opponent's show and tell, mostly it's just goyf.

[ktkenshinx]

There are a few problems associated with Show and Tell (and to a lesser extent, Natural Order), that most of the other cards on this list do not have.

1) Idiotproof
It really does not take too much skill to run an SnT "combo" deck. There are no decision trees, no piles, no draw 4 probability calculation, etc. It's often just a matter of turn 2-3 SnT with FoW backup, and that's the end of that. Idiotproof combos tend to be far more obnoxious than those that involve skill, even if those latter ones are more broken. A historical example of this might be the dumbly broken Skullclamp, an idiotproof engine, versus the similarly broken but at least more skillful Mind’s Desire. Desire was legal in format where Skullclamp was anathema.
Relative to the other combo pieces on the list, LED and Tendrils, SnT takes a far lower level of skill to play properly. Even in the most basic “what-if” combo scenario, “what if the opponent has FoW?”, it is much easier to resolve your SnTEmrakul than it is to crack LED in response to Tutor, or resolve your Tendrils spell chain.

2) Pitches to FoW
Extra combo pieces can help feed the FoW. That’s a big consideration in decks splashing other colors, where 20+ blue cards are the minimum FoW prerequisite (a debatable number admittedly).

3) Constantly Growing Danger
SnT has the potential to get more powerful whenever a new set is released that contains big creatures. While RoE was admittedly a peculiar “big creature” set, Wizards always puts some kind of nasty fattie into every expansion. While it is easy to stick an anti reanimation clause onto a creature, it’s much harder to put the Phage/Myojin clauses (“if not cast from hand”) into the rules text. This is for reasons of a) space and b) flavor. From a space perspective, you don’t want to clog up every awesome card with annoying rules text. From a flavor perspective, it’s incredibly artificial to give every creature such a drawback.
More importantly, casual players love to cheat in their big creatures. Whether through Elvish Piper or Pattern of Rebirth, sneaking big guys into play is a staple of the casual and even EDH scene. Wizards would be alienating many players, not just tournament ones, by SnT proofing their future fatties.

I do not believe that SnT deserves a ban, or even that it is the most “bannable” card in the format. But these are three compelling reasons to explain why SnT is ranked so high in the current poll despite its relative lack of performance.

-ktkenshinx-

[Meekrab]

Mystical Tutor banned and the format is still heavily blue?

Ponder and Preordain are pretty good cantrips?

Discard is underperforming since 199x?

Get my vote, BRAINSTORM!
'Discard' is 'underperforming' because it's a scrub noobie strategy that hands bucketloads of tempo to your opponent most games in exchange for a couple where you completely cripple them.

I voted LED because cards with the text "add three mana of any color to your mana pool" are pretty broken. I don't expect anything to get banned, though.

[Eddy Wally]

Show and Tell can be beaten, easily. Last time I played against it I had a Knight of the Reliquary in hand and a Karakas in the library. If you play Bant and the other guy isn't using hideaway shenanigans, just mulligan until you have KotR in hand and you should be fine.

That being said, how exactly does one race a turn three Emrakul without such tricks? The only creatures that will allow you to do that are either a massive amount of Empty the Warrens tokens, or the Marit Lage token. Progenitus or Iona don't deal enough damage to end the game in one attack, and even if you are above fifteen life that annihalator 6 means you'll never attack twice against Emrakul. It will block everything else.

[ScatmanX]

That being said, how exactly does one race a turn three Emrakul without such tricks?
Mountain, Lackey, go.
That usually do it.

[ummon]

Personally, I don't think Show and Tell should be banned. I think Emrakul should be banned instead. I'm tired of WoTC printing ever more powerful high cc cards that practically say "sneak me into play." It has gone way too far.

[Eddy Wally]

Mountain, Lackey, go.
That usually do it.

Even then your success is anything but guaranteed. Unless you have Stingscourger in hand though, I guess.

[(nameless one)]

That being said, how exactly does one race a turn three Emrakul without such tricks?

You know that you can cheat something too onto the field via SnT. I truly believe that Humility should see more play. I might pick up my Quinn deck again.

Although for the most part, SnT strategy has become idiot-proof. Its more idiot-proof than Dredge. SnT is actually more broken than Mystical Tutor.

[jrsthethird]

I voted LED because cards with the text "add three mana of any color to your mana pool" are pretty broken. I don't expect anything to get banned, though.

Ban Gilded Lotus!!!

[Phoenix Ignition]

Although for the most part, SnT strategy has become idiot-proof. Its more idiot-proof than Dredge. SnT is actually more broken than Mystical Tutor.

Mystical Tutor allowed for silver bullet cards to fetch for against dedicated hate for your deck. If I drop counterbalance you could respond by Tutoring up a K grip. I run 4 Counterbalance, you run 1 K grip but have access to it through 4 spells. This is unfair in almost every single way. Reanimator could run 1 show and tell to get around all the graveyard hate in the world. The card was too good, it let you run 5 maindeck answers to your biggest fear while the opponent could only run 4 of your most feared card.

Show and Tell isn't nearly that broken, although I agree it is stupid. There are plenty of ways to beat it, and there are other cards that are similar we'd have to look out for (Sneak Attack, Into the Breach, etc.).

[lordofthepit]

I'd rather they unban Mystical Tutor than touch anything on that list.

[Rico Suave]

I was judging on power level and voted LED. Top and LED are the leading candidates by a mile.

[rleader]

I voted for Brainstorm. I do not believe that it a card that will be banned. I would much rather see fetchlands get banned than anything on this list. .

I have to agree with this. Fetches change the nature of duals and make something relavent (land type) that is not normally relevant in most situations, meaning there's seldom any other interactions of that kind going on (and Wizards doesn't want things like Boil to be printed in future sets).

And I'll also vote for Brainstorm by process of elimination: nothing on the list really jumps out at me and I dislike blue trumping black (discard) by default in the format.

[caiomarcos]

I have to agree with this. Fetches change the nature of duals and make something relavent (land type) that is not normally relevant in most situations, meaning there's seldom any other interactions of that kind going on (and Wizards doesn't want things like Boil to be printed in future sets).

I don't get it. What is the true nature of the Duals? Land type is fairly relevant and has always been, from Gaea's Liege to Wild Nacatl, through whole mechanics around it like Domain and landwalk. For me, having all those kind of interactions related to basic land types while producing more than one color is the nature of the Duals. It's the first thing wirtten on them - "Counts as both type and type and is affected by spells that affect either." Beautiful.

I voted for Top not because of power level, since every other card in the list is as powerful or more poweful than it. I voter for Top on annoyingness factor alone. Tarmogoyf comes a very close second for its omnipresence and for how much more variety we would have if it was gone. Also because it is extremely overpowered. Thinking again, l'm sure I should've voted Tarmogoyf.

[ktkenshinx]

Show and Tell isn't nearly that broken, although I agree it is stupid. There are plenty of ways to beat it, and there are other cards that are similar we'd have to look out for (Sneak Attack, Into the Breach, etc.).
I disagree with the statement that we have to watch out for these other cards like Sneak Attack and Through the Breach. The difference is in the casting cost. At 3 mana, SnT is a guaranteed turn 3 play, and a probably turn 2 play in the right deck. At 5 mana, SA and TtB are significantly slower.

If you (the general "you", not you personally) doubt this, take a look at a few other Legacy legal cards and compare them to Legacy illegal cards. Diabolic Tutor is Demonic Tutor plus 2 mana. The latter is broken. The former hasn't seen play since 2004, and that was in Standard. Demonic may be gone, but no one is scrambling to play Diabolic in its stead. Similarly, look at Cruel Tutor and compare it to Imperial Seal (or Vampiric Tutor, albeit not as an instant). The 1 cmc Tutors are just so much better than the 3 cmc one. Cruel Tutor is highly legal in Legacy, but next to no one plays it. If Imperial Seal were legal, every combo deck would be using 4.

SnT, and Natural Order to a lesser extent, represent unique cases in their comboing with big and powerful creatures. One has a low cmc. The other doesn't require the beast to be in your hand.

Oh, and as to SnT's "reciprocal" effect, that's a load of bunk. The vast, vast majority of matchups will see an Emrakul dropped across from a Goyf, Reejery, Knight, or something else an order of creature-magnitude smaller.

-ktkenshinx-

[(nameless one)]

I saw screw this....

Summer is going to be done in 2 weeks and I would rather see Land Tax getting the Legacy Visa

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yeah, ban nothing obviously. Why do people have such a hard-on to ban something in such a wide open format, it's like the only thing some people talk about on here. A different deck wins like every week, format is so not broken. Unban Land Tax, because it sucks and I want people to play it against me.

[rleader]

through whole mechanics around it like Domain and landwalk. For me, having all those kind of interactions related to basic land types while producing more than one color is the nature of the Duals.

Yeah, but none of those interactions, beyond nacatl, actually make a difference in legacy. The only thing land types on duals do in legacy, outside of a few minor exceptions, is make the original duals better than anything else Wizards can print in the future. Without fetches, stuff like filter lands might be better in some ways than duals.I don't find that beautiful, just boring, until they can find a way to have separate interactions between basics with types and non basics with types (imperiosaur, etc.).

I think it's similar to the goyf effect: more interesting options are pushed to the wayside. The only thing I really don't like about goyf is the graveyard counting though. It doesn't exactly make things more fun. Imagine if two or three different popular cards in the format cared about so many conditions being met or not.

[frolll]

TOP, as in Extended, for it makes far too many games go to time.

[cjva]

Voted SDT for no other reason than the time issue. I'v seen to many players taking to much time when they use their top. Power level wise I would probably say Brainstorm for many of the same reasons it was restricted in vintage.

[jrsthethird]

I thought it would be nice to see the data in graph form, so people can look at it from a different angle.

Pie chart for 2009 poll:

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/2125/2009bnr.jpg

Pie chart for 2010 poll:

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1687/2010bnr.jpg

Anything that had less than 5% of the total vote was grouped into Other, and can be safely disregarded as a threat. This includes safe options such as:

Wasteland
Survival of the Fittest
Natural Order
Standstill
Goblin Lackey
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Tendrils of Agony

and of course, Force of Will, both years, underperformed as a real threat to the format. This is a sign that, despite a few zealous individuals, Force of Will is commonly thought as non-threatening.

On the other hand, the same 5 offenders accrued more than 5% of the total vote this year as last year, with the notable inclusion of Show and Tell.

Just some observations from the graphs, I'm not going to infer what they mean about the format:
Sensei's Divining Top has the biggest slice of the pie both years, but it dropped 9% in 2010.
Tarmogoyf went from the second most popular hated card in 2009 to just avoiding the cutoff for Other in 2010.
Lion's Eye Diamond jumped by 5%, and with the Tarmogoyf hit, becomes the 2nd-most-'hated' card.
Brainstorm doubled from 6% to 12%.
Counterbalance dropped by 4%.
Show and Tell burst into 3rd place with 14% this year. Obviously this wasn't a factor last year since Reanimator was still a viable deck, there were no Eldrazi to cheat into play, and Hive Mind/Dream Halls strategies were too slow.

[Vacrix]

Instead of discussing power levels... maybe we should discuss the effects of one card's banning on the frequency of the others.

If LED was banned I believe we would see a reduction in the amount of Top in the format. Would this actually happen though?
Well, when we lost Mystical Tutor, we saw a huge reduction in LED/Dark Ritual based combo. Counterbalance's best matchup went down the shitter. Sure plenty of players switched to TES, but the number of ANT players has dropped from a 1/3 of the metagame back to a more reasonable level.

By the same logic, banning LED would reduce the population of combo players even further. A format with fewer combo players provides an incentive for aggro players to beat up on Counterbalance.. which would mean we see fewer SDT's floating around.

Then again, I'm against banning LED simply because I enjoy playing in the format's current dynamic state.

Discuss.

[Rico Suave]

Voted SDT for no other reason than the time issue. I'v seen to many players taking to much time when they use their top. Power level wise I would probably say Brainstorm for many of the same reasons it was restricted in vintage.

Brainstorm was not restricted in Vintage for power level reasons.

[majikal]

Brainstorm was not restricted in Vintage for power level reasons.
I had to quote this because I feel like this point cannot be driven home hard enough.

Brainstorm was restricted in Vintage to encourage variation in archetypes, NOT because of power level.

[kinda]

I had to quote this because I feel like this point cannot be driven home hard enough.

Brainstorm was restricted in Vintage to encourage variation in archetypes, NOT because of power level.

Congratulations, you quoted someone who did nothing but echo the sentiments of someone else...allow me to walk you through some analysis.

Statement: Brainstorm is banned.

Q1: Why is brainstorm banned?
A1: It was restricting the number of archetypes in vintage. http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/96

Q2: Why was it restricting the number of archetypes in vintage?
A2: After lands, ponder, brainstorm, force of will, and the restricted cards there were few spots left in the decklists. (in same paragraph)

Q3: Ah I see...but there are so many strong cards in vintage, and decks can win or lock so quickly...are the cantrips that are clogging up those decklists really better than just running other powerful vintage spells?
A3: There is strong correlation between the power of cantrips and the difference in power of the cards in your deck. Case in point; ancestral recall. When you have game breaking spells in your deck it's important to find them as often as possible. There are are other factors such as: brainstorm is much more than a cantrip, cantrips enable the conerstone of vintage (force of will), and they provide consistencency which is a form of power in magic.

Q4: Ok, I can see how playing cards that maximize your chances of pulling off your strongest plays is important in vintage, but how strong is card selection in legacy?
A4: Very strong, over half (I think this was IBA's stat...don't remember exactly) of legacy decks run force of will and there are decks like TES that splash blue just for brainstorm/ponder. Tarmogoyf is clearly the best creature in the format, lion's eye diamond the best accelerant, jac...err survival of the fittest the best engine, and force of will the best answer...I want to play these cards not impostors. Counterbalance+top and show and tell+threat are very powerful two card combo's that only cost 3 mana...but these combos require consistency support by brainstorm to remain egregious offenders.

[caiomarcos]

Yeah, but none of those interactions, beyond nacatl, actually make a difference in legacy...

I'll disagree with you, there are tons of really important interactions in Legacy that are based on the fact that duals have two basic land types:

Choke tapping duals;
fish swimming through duals;
Nacatl, Ape and Lion getting bonus from duals;
Reliquary saccing duals;
Flagstones fetching Duals;
Fireblast, Submerge, Reverent Silence and Snuff Out being played through duals;
Utopia Sprawl being played on duals;
REB and BEB destroying duals;
Land Grant searching for duals;
Shackles getting bonus from duals;
Daze bouncing duals...

...are all interactions that make a huge difference in Legacy. They are so part of the format that we barely think about it when we read a basic land type requirement on a card. That's why duals are so powerful, not only because they can be fetched by fetches.

I'll have also to agree with you, because being fetched is a HUGE part of it.

[(nameless one)]

The question now is: How would the format look like if Original Duals did not exist.

Would decks get the same consistency with Ravnica Duals? Would there be less 3+ color decks?

Obviously, Brainstorm, SDT, and the rest of the cantrip/filter gang will be a big help in color fixing if that scenario ever happens.

[lordofthepit]

REB and BEB destroying duals;

Am I missing something?

[mchainmail]

Am I missing something?

nah....

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=146022&type=card

[Eddy Wally]

That REB destroying duals argument makes no sense. With Painter's servant in play those cards can destroy anything. The fact that duals have a basic type doesn't change one iota about this.

[jrsthethird]

That REB destroying duals argument makes no sense. With Painter's servant in play those cards can destroy anything. The fact that duals have a basic type doesn't change one iota about this.

Active Volcano bouncing duals is a better example, but totally irrelevant.

[swoop]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110137&d=1283560761

Guess we're getting to keep wasteland abit more around :p

[Gheizen64]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110137&d=1283560761

Guess we're getting to keep wasteland abit more around :p

Simply love this card <3

[naurthal]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110137&d=1283560761

Guess we're getting to keep wasteland abit more around :p

what is that? new judge promo?

[Nessaja]

Yes it is.

It doesn't look that hot, but more wastelands on the market is a good thing.

[majikal]

Congratulations, you quoted someone who did nothing but echo the sentiments of someone else...allow me to walk you through some analysis.

Statement: Brainstorm is banned.

Q1: Why is brainstorm banned?
A1: It was restricting the number of archetypes in vintage. http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/96

Q2: Why was it restricting the number of archetypes in vintage?
A2: After lands, ponder, brainstorm, force of will, and the restricted cards there were few spots left in the decklists. (in same paragraph)

Q3: Ah I see...but there are so many strong cards in vintage, and decks can win or lock so quickly...are the cantrips that are clogging up those decklists really better than just running other powerful vintage spells?
A3: There is strong correlation between the power of cantrips and the difference in power of the cards in your deck. Case in point; ancestral recall. When you have game breaking spells in your deck it's important to find them as often as possible. There are are other factors such as: brainstorm is much more than a cantrip, cantrips enable the conerstone of vintage (force of will), and they provide consistencency which is a form of power in magic.

Q4: Ok, I can see how playing cards that maximize your chances of pulling off your strongest plays is important in vintage, but how strong is card selection in legacy?
A4: Very strong, over half (I think this was IBA's stat...don't remember exactly) of legacy decks run force of will and there are decks like TES that splash blue just for brainstorm/ponder. Tarmogoyf is clearly the best creature in the format, lion's eye diamond the best accelerant, jac...err survival of the fittest the best engine, and force of will the best answer...I want to play these cards not impostors. Counterbalance+top and show and tell+threat are very powerful two card combo's that only cost 3 mana...but these combos require consistency support by brainstorm to remain egregious offenders.
I'm sorry, were you trying to make some kind of point?

[caiomarcos]

Am I missing something?


nah....]


That REB destroying duals argument makes no sense. With Painter's servant in play those cards can destroy anything. The fact that duals have a basic type doesn't change one iota about this.


Active Volcano bouncing duals is a better example, but totally irrelevant.

Obvious mistake from my part. Everything else still stands.


The question now is: How would the format look like if Original Duals did not exist.

Would decks get the same consistency with Ravnica Duals? Would there be less 3+ color decks?

Obviously, Brainstorm, SDT, and the rest of the cantrip/filter gang will be a big help in color fixing if that scenario ever happens.

Everytime I fetch a dual and follow to play Thoughseize, I thank the gods at WotC my Bayou is not an Overgrown Tomb. By this example I believe we can say that many decks would not have the same consistency they have now.

Brainstorm, SDT and company already play a big role on color fixing, even with old duals.

[perm]

the optimistic guy in me says tarmogoyf, the practical one says top. Wild nacatl being banned would make the format far healthier, too.

[Deady]

CB-Top is around for ages and hasn't ever been too powerful for legacy. It's just a well known archetype, but neither Counterbalance or SDT is ban worthy.

SDT sucks in lots of decks, but shines in CB decks. Brainstorm is just blue's best cantrip; I cannot imagine the format without it. I'd stop playing Legacy without Brainstorm or SDT. There's too much skill coming into play with those cards to be worth a ban.

[perm]

SDT sucks up game time monotonously and gives too much draw control for an exceptionally cheap card. You can't even get rid of it unless you blow a K-grip on it, lolz

[markbris]

When is the next announcement? September 20th ish?

[Cenarius]

Voted Show and Tell.

That card became way to absurd with Emrakul. It's just not a fun card, at all.
CB/top won't be banned. Merfolk, Goblins keep those decks pretty far away from the high tables.
Nacatl and Tarmogoyf wont be banned, because they keep merfolk and Goblins from the high tables.
Lion's Eye diamond won't be banned because they keep Non-blue based decks away from the high tables.
Yet, CB/top + Merfolk try to keep, and will succed 50% of the times or even more depending on the players, combo away from the high tables.

This format is healthy.

"Brainstorm on the banlist". Don't make me laugh. Although that card is really really broken, if you ban that card noone will play blue anymore. Atleast I won't for sure.

[(nameless one)]

I have voted Show and Tell but if they're still letting Natural Order see play, I doubt that theyre going to ban Show and Tell.

And Wild Nacatl on the ban list? Come on... Kird Ape used to be and the Extended ban list and it got reintroduced. Zoo isn't that powerful. Yes, it sucks to get beaten really fast by aggro but if that is the case, shouldn't we all ban Storm enabling cards since the decks that use those cards can kill you way faster than a zoo then can kill you?

[perm]

if one piece of storm fails, it all fails. Zoo is just "lol keep slapping down too-powerful creaturez lol"

[Skargath]

Voted Show and Tell, lately its been showing up WAY WAY too often in MTGO, so much so that I have main deck'ed Edict. Shoot me.

[Atwa]

Voted Show and Tell, lately its been showing up WAY WAY too often in MTGO, so much so that I have main deck'ed Edict. Shoot me.

Welcome to this thing called metagaming. We've been here since 1993....

[Skargath]

Welcome to this thing called metagaming. We've been here since 1993....

Welcome to this thing called, being a smartass. Im running the freaking edict. Therefore anticipating metagame.

:rolleyes:

[Atwa]

Welcome to this thing called, being a smartass. Im running the freaking edict. Therefore anticipating metagame.

:rolleyes:

I totally understood you well. I just don't understand why you complain you have to run Edict (or any other cards for your meta).

People have been doing things like this since forever. I remember every Legacy deck I build a couple of years ago started out with the question: "How am I going to beat a T1 Lackey?". How is this any different then you running Edict? Or do you claim we should also banned Lackey (in retrospect)?

[Skargath]

I totally understood you well. I just don't understand why you complain you have to run Edict (or any other cards for your meta).

People have been doing things like this since forever. I remember every Legacy deck I build a couple of years ago started out with the question: "How am I going to beat a T1 Lackey?". How is this any different then you running Edict? Or do you claim we should also banned Lackey (in retrospect)?

Woah killer, its not diffrent. Drop it.

[yawg07]

I vote TOP!!!

[Pulp_Fiction]

I voted for Top even though I use it in a lot of decks. And banning LED ... that or Tendrils goes, I quit all magic that isn't EDH forever. I refuse to play in any format where I can't cast consistently lethal Tendrils of Agony.

[majikal]

No changes, although it looks like Gush got unrestricted in Vintage again. Will it be safe without Gush into Brainstorm into Gush shenanigans?

[Leftconsin]

No changes, although it looks like Gush got unrestricted in Vintage again. Will it be safe without Gush into Brainstorm into Gush shenanigans?

They probably got convinced (finally) that Gush isn't insane without 4-of Merchant Scroll around.

[baghdadbob]

In all honesty I think the format is pretty balanced. I voted for top even though I don't think it really needs to be banned. Card is friggin' annoying to play against because it makes a game take forever.

[Nicol Bolas]

x
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahoidh-VmSwx

I guess there's this one card that slipped through XD

[sauce]

In all honesty I think the format is pretty balanced. I voted for top even though I don't think it really needs to be banned. Card is friggin' annoying to play against because it makes a game take forever.

top is one of the two main cards keeping storm combo in check.

banning it is like saying let's ban force of will. format needs checks and balances.

[Octopusman]

I voted for top.
I believe the format is fine... if there were no time limits. However, there are time limits in games that matter. Anyone who has had their tournament performance affected because of going to time because of top will also think this way imo.


I don't intend to comment on anything anyone else has said although I'd like to.

[sauce]

the flip side to going to time is finishing the match under 2 minutes when you get your face stomped in by storm every game since top is banned.

[dahcmai]

It's not like Storm doesn't have ten million other counters to worry about. Counterbalance is just the worst one since it can't be Duressed out or Chanted. It's rare I get a Counterbalance played on me, but I rarely get to win the weekly tournaments due to Force of Will alone coming out of Merfolk decks with that hideously quick clock. Beat it I do, but it's always rough.

I admit, Landstill and such without CB isn't too bad, but If they have Spell Snare or counters past the normal counterspell it gets rough. At least we weed out Zoo decks and such for you guys, give us a break and board badly. :P


and to pertain to the topic, I would vote for unbannings and not Hermit Druid.

[Brad Herbig]

Counterbalance is just the worst one since it can't be Duressed out or Chanted.

I've Duressed many a Counterbalance in my day. I'd check the card text again.

I don't think any of the cards listed need to be banned, though.

[Parax]

I think that what he means by that is before you go for the win, you can't just Duress to look at their hand and grab the CB much like you can't Chant to keep him from using it. This assuming that the CB has already been played.