[SCD] Elspeth Tiriel

[perm]

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Elpseth-Tirel.jpg

Pretty ridiculous, since you can destroy the board a turn after it comes into play. Arguably better than even our current elspeth

[Aggro_zombies]

Pretty ridiculous, since you can destroy the board a turn after it comes into play. Arguably better than even our current elspeth
Um...what?

So you play it and use the +2. If you're a creature deck, you gain a bunch of life. If you're a control deck, you get THE GOGGLES.

Then you use the -5. If you're a creature deck, you lose all of your creatures. If you're a control deck, you can't use the -5, because you tapped out last turn and your opponent attacked Elspeth to less than five loyalty, so you die because you're playing a card that's worse than the old Elspeth in every conceivable way.

You need to work on your card evaluation skills.

[perm]

Resetting the board in such a way is something that almost no card can do, especially if you can make it so one-sided.

[Aggro_zombies]

Resetting the board in such a way is something that almost no card can do, especially if you can make it so one-sided.
Wrath of God is only playable in this format when it costs three mana.

There's almost no way to make this one-sided without building a terrible deck or having to use abilities that don't actually do anything for several turns while your opponent runs you over.

Seriously, Venser is better than this.

[perm]

I'm not necessarily talking about legacy

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm not necessarily talking about legacy
This is a Legacy board. You may wish to say that before people think you're an idiot.

But this still isn't good, even in Standard. She kills your Jace TMS then and doesn't work well with Vengevine.

EDIT: She also doesn't answer the opponent's Vengevines, which will jump right out and kill her post-ultimate.

[Killing Joke]

Then you use the -5. If you're a creature deck, you lose all of your creatures. If you're a control deck, you can't use the -5, because you tapped out last turn and your opponent attacked Elspeth to less than five loyalty, so you die because you're playing a card that's worse than the old Elspeth in every conceivable way.

You need to work on your card evaluation skills.

Vacuums are great for cleaning floors and all, but not always the best to put examples in. Pretty sure most people on this site said Elspeth 1.0 was crap when she first came out too. Maybe this block or the next will have more token generating cards, nobody knows. So you might not lose all your creatures. Or if you're a control deck maybe you've fallen behind and need to wipe the board or you have a specific reason to wipe it. The meta and decks change with each new set. People shouldnt go around acting like everything is set in stone all the time.

[Grollub]

Mmm, she can fill up the board fast with tokens to protect her and youself. So taking her out with creatures wont be that easy. Looks too pricey for Legacy tho.

[Antonius]

Pretty ridiculous, since you can destroy the board a turn after it comes into play. Arguably better than even our current elspeth

yeah, Disk does the same thing, costs 1 less and can be recurred with this amazing land Called Academy Ruins. No one plays that, either.

Tiriel is rarely, rarely going to wipe the board. She's going to make chumps and in the process fall down into burn range (even of lavamancer) or terravore is going to trample the chumps or islandwalk is going to happen. For five mana, I'd much rather cast Gideon. At least he can assassinate one of the creatures breathing down your neck the turn he comes into play. Or better yet, I'll take Knight-Errant AND the timewalk, since I can cast her one turn earlier.

[lorddotm]

shes gonna be awesome in stax since she costs over 4 mana right?

[Nihil Credo]

In the abstract, I'd be rather happy to play one or two copies of this against anything but Lightning Bolt decks. Start with -2 and the chump blockers buy you a ton of options. Have a Force of Will in hand and it's likely to single-handedly provide board control for the rest of the game. That's quite acceptable for a five-mana spell.

The biggest problem is that, off the top of my head, I can't come up with a deck that would play Elspeth Tirel but would not want Elspeth KE just as much. But Elspeth KE lands one turn earlier and is damn hard to kill - indeed, it's her main selling point. Unlike the Jaces, you don't really want to play both together.

[Nessaja]

This version of Elspeth might be much more popular in casual, consider that it would be ungodly in doubling season token decks.

[Amon Amarth]

I like how all of her abilities are synergistic. If you could get her to work she's a beating. What deck would want to play her? None in Legacy afaik.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't see any deck that would want her over Elspeth, KE at this time.

[Kagehisa]

Hello People !

She's very powerful. Elspeth 2.0 is here to die anyway. Her ultimate kills her and clear the board to let the your tokens kills your opponent

I think her partner is AJANI GOLDMANE. Seriously. It is obvious.

[Nidd]

Hello People !

She's very powerful. Elspeth 2.0 is here to die anyway. Her ultimate kills her and clear the board to let the your tokens kills your opponent

I think her partner is AJANI GOLDMANE. Seriously. It is obvious.
She doesn't die to her own ultimate.

[Kagehisa]

Yeah it is obvious XD thx Nidd ;)

[menace13]

She is really good. Better than Elspeth 1.0. The board sweeper ability is sik, If she lands on even board, they cant even set up anything with out the fear of everything they play goes boom, They cant get thru 3 1/1s without some evasion. She is very good.

[ivanpei]

I can see this making a huge splash in Standard. In legacy, I highly doubt it. Even if she had the same abilities at 4 mana, she would be barely playable. At 5, I think its a stretch.Elspeth KE, IMO is simply better in both control and aggro. In aggro as equipment + threat combined and in control, an almost unkillable win condition. This elspeth does nothing much in aggro decks, and is simply too slow in control decks. My 2 cents.

[Eldariel]

Hello People !

She's very powerful. Elspeth 2.0 is here to die anyway. Her ultimate kills her and clear the board to let the your tokens kills your opponent

I think her partner is AJANI GOLDMANE. Seriously. It is obvious.

So...you're willing to pay 5 mana for possibly 6 1/1 tokens? Why aren't you just playing Conqueror's Pledge? And what possible relevance does this have to Legacy? Ajani Goldmane...hasn't been playable in like forever. Anywhere.

[Deadweight]

The ultimate ability seems sick only against aggro and will usually take about 9 turns to activate, by that time you have already been beaten to a pulp by most aggro decks.

[morgan_coke]

It's a five mana Disk that kills walkers, gains life, and makes token swarms to defend or serve as a win con. If you think Elspeth2 isn't absolutely insane on a nearly jace2 level, you're an idiot.

[MattH]

Elspeth, make 3 tokens. Next turn, make 3 more tokens, play second Elspeth, +6 life. chump if needed, then nuke. I expect to see this line of play in standard for the next year at least.

[justjake54]

Maybe in type 2 she's okay at best. In a perfect world maybe you could make three tokens, have nothing to block with them and then gain 3 or 4 life next turn, then have nothing to block again, gain 3 or 4 more life, then have nothing to block with your tokens. blow up their board (which at this point if you still have tokens means they didn't really have anything worth blowing up) and maybe gain a little more life and have gotten in 9 damage assuming they didn't play anything over the 4 turns it took to do this. otherwise you will make 3 tokens, have to block with them, maybe try to gain 1 life with her to put her back up to 4 loyalty and they will attack again and you won't have any dudes and then you can ultimate but they probably will have saved the 2 cards they drew since you played her so they won't get blown out by the disk they saw coming 2 turns away. I guess she works okay in a mediocre token deck, but you probably aren't winning anyway if you're playing a type 2 token deck.

[morgan_coke]

Maybe in type 2 she's okay at best. In a perfect world maybe you could make three tokens, have nothing to block with them and then gain 3 or 4 life next turn, then have nothing to block again, gain 3 or 4 more life, then have nothing to block with your tokens. blow up their board (which at this point if you still have tokens means they didn't really have anything worth blowing up) and maybe gain a little more life and have gotten in 9 damage assuming they didn't play anything over the 4 turns it took to do this. otherwise you will make 3 tokens, have to block with them, maybe try to gain 1 life with her to put her back up to 4 loyalty and they will attack again and you won't have any dudes and then you can ultimate but they probably will have saved the 2 cards they drew since you played her so they won't get blown out by the disk they saw coming 2 turns away. I guess she works okay in a mediocre token deck, but you probably aren't winning anyway if you're playing a type 2 token deck.

Yes, this is why I think Elspeth1 is so terrible. Whenever my opponent plays it I just plow the token then kill it with my 5/6 goyf. Oh wait, that's only how things work in magical christmas land. good card is good. stop trying to run imaginary scenarios where its bad.

[justjake54]

at least elspeth1 has other relevant abilities, if you make 3 tokens with new elspeth, (which is her most relevant ability) otherwise she's just strictly worse than disk. and if you do make tokens, I guess she's just mildly annoying instead of winning the game by attacking with a 4/4 flier all while moving towards her ultimate. Not to mention she costs 5! 5 mana for three tokens, and if everything goes perfectly for you a little bit of damage, a little bit of life and blowing up 2 or 3 of your opponents permanents in 3 turns. l-a-m-e

[lordofthepit]

I don't think this will be busted, but I'm going to predict that this will definitely see play in control decks like Landstill and Stax.

[Humphrey]

maybe decree of justice gets a revival, but where to get all those mana?

else2 looks to slow for me, but you never know. sweeping the whole board is sick

[justjake54]

I don't think this will be busted, but I'm going to predict that this will definitely see play in control decks like Landstill and Stax.

This would be terrible in stax, elspeth KE would be way better, because you would never want to cast new elspeths ultimate because you would kill everything that you want on the board like trinisphere or chalice of the void or smokestax or...well pretty much everything in the deck. and i'm pretty sure elspeth KE is better in landstill.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Seems to me that what this card fundamentally wants is to be in a deck with Spectral Procession, Raise the Alarm, Ajani Goldmane, maybe Bitterblossom, etc.

Would it be good? In Legacy? Um... probably not. I might test it on MWS for a few laughs. Seriously though, I can see her bringing about some sort of Black/White Tokens revival in the New Extended though...

[menace13]

Playing Elspeth2 on a board with one creature out gives 2 turns of fogs-like a Decree of Justice and if they over extend you blow the board and resets it. It could go play turn 5+--> -2 loyalty for 3 1/1's, Chump block/eat removal, +2 Loyalty gain 1-2 life Chump Block/Removal, +2 to ramp to 6 Loyalty if you have 1 blocker(mishra will do) or Removal-EE,StP- or No threats, or -2 Loyalty back to 4 if the worst case is no Removal and they play out more dudes and some removal. Obv some decks will ignore her Like LoA,Zoo can burn it out,Combo Laughs, Although she can gum up the board and buy enough time to either resetit herself or draw into answers via blockers.

In contrast Elspeth KE would buy half as less time or in some cases none.

[Eddy Wally]

This card has very good abilities, even better than the first Elspeth. However, it costs 5. For that reason, and that reason alone, it won't see much play.

Also: this is a completely unrealistic scenarion, but think about how hilarious it would be to get Elspeth 1 all the way to 8 with a token every turn, use its ultimate and kill it (making the rest of your permanents indestructible), and then play new Elspeth. Using Elspeth 2's ultimate then would be so damn funny. Something you'd only see in kitchen table games though, but it would be an epic win.

[Infinitium]

Well, it does give a buffert against aggressive decks packing burn which is a pretty important consideration all in all. Still probably won't see play at 5 mana except in lists already packing 4 Jace TM in the 4cc spot.

[Skeggi]

Planeswalkers costing 5 or more mana have never been 'good enough' for Legacy. I don't think the new Elspeth will be the exception to the rule.

[pippo84]

Anyone think about Thopter Combo? It makes the tokens live and it should be GG..
Probably it's just a win more, anyways having 6 tokens to protect her and then gain life doesn't seem bad to me.

[Noman Peopled]

I don't think we should put too much emphasis on the Disk. If we wanted a Disk, we would have tried to play Disk a long time ago. Disk is vulernable to disenchants and this gal is vulnerable to her most relevant victims.

I think of Tirel as more of a token engine. She can spit out three tokens, then gain life, and so forth. Three tokens every other turn is half a token more per turn than her former incarnation was capable off. Plus, we gain a buttload of life along the way. (Depending on whether we're in a position to go to two loyalty immediately, we attack for more damage - or less.)
We're not building any loyalty that way though ... but if we make three tokens, then gain life, and gain life again, we still have as many soldiers as Elspeth #1 would have provided, and gaining two counters per three turns. And life. Granted, quite possibly we get the tokens later since we may be forced to build loyalty first, while El #1 can do both simultanously.

Plus, obviously, the whole thing costs us a mana more, which is pretty significant.

The ultimate, while not the real attraction, is still welcome.



I wouldn't bet on it seeing Legacy play, but it's much better than a bad Disk.

[whiteshepherdman]

As a landstill player, jace 2.0 didn't seem super amazing at first before testing but hes more than proven himself. Elspeth 2.0 is landstill's dream come true. Remember, we use these as win conditions after we've controlled the board. If you thought trying to deal with jace was annoying then you're in for a real treat

[wolfstorm]

Elspeth 2.0 is actually harder to kill via swinging since you make tokens faster than original elspeth, and god forbid you can have 6 blockers for 5 mana if worse comes to worse.

[Sims]

I think someone earlier in the thread got it right. I'll trade for her for casual, because my mono-white tokens deck neds some loving and she seems like she could provide it.

Also, I might change my tokens general in EDH from Ulasht to Rith to add her in there... play her, gain a bunch of life even with non-lethal tokens on the board, proceed to blow up the world.. etc.

Doubt she'll make a dent in legacy though.

[Kagehisa]

So...you're willing to pay 5 mana for possibly 6 1/1 tokens? Why aren't you just playing Conqueror's Pledge? And what possible relevance does this have to Legacy? Ajani Goldmane...hasn't been playable in like forever. Anywhere.

No. I think it is the same mistake people did when they saw Jace 2.0. Jace 2.0 is not a brainstorm for 4 manas at sorcery speed. Some others compared him to Concentrate. Even some people told that Jace 1.0 was better than the 2.0 version. lol :laugh:

So... I should tell people that maindeck Jace 2.0 :"So...you're willing to pay 4 mana for possibly a Draw 3 effect ? Why aren't you just playing Concentrate?" I won't but I would like someone post that in the UBG Landstill thread... Just to hear reactions...

Nah... Jace 2.0 is like Phyrexian Arena (without lifeloss) OR Zur's Weirding (one sided without costing life) AND Sunken Hope AND Wincon.

New Elspeth is cute, beautiful, sexy, goodlooking and like some women she hides under her clothes her true power. XD :eek:

Elspeth 2.0 is a really really better version of Mageta the Lion. 3/3 Wrath of God on a stick She has the same functionnalities plus immunity to removal (not burn)

Anyway, I think Leyline of Sanctity or Humility with Elspeth Tirel is bunker. Yeah... it looks weak...

[Eldariel]

No. I think it is the same mistake people did when they saw Jace 2.0. Jace 2.0 is not a brainstorm for 4 manas at sorcery speed. Some others compared him to Concentrate. Even some people told that Jace 1.0 was better than the 2.0 version. lol :laugh:

The issue here is that the +2 ability is pretty worthless (while Jace's pretty much guarantees you win the game once you get ahead) and the ability you want to be spamming is -2 (Jace's is -0). And much of Jace's appeal is the versatility at having multiple functionalities since it also comes with the Bounce-option. Oh, and Elspeth is a 5-mana spell. Wrath of God is seeing virtually no play and Rout is seeing absolutely no play (same with Mageta the Lion, btw). It takes a lot for a 5-mana spell to be Legacy playable, and I don't see Elspeth being nearly good enough.

[the Thin White Duke]

All I know is that the new art makes her look like Lou Ferrigno. :frown:

[HAVE HEART]

The issue here is that the +2 ability is pretty worthless (while Jace's pretty much guarantees you win the game once you get ahead) and the ability you want to be spamming is -2 (Jace's is -0). And much of Jace's appeal is the versatility at having multiple functionalities since it also comes with the Bounce-option. Oh, and Elspeth is a 5-mana spell. Wrath of God is seeing virtually no play and Rout is seeing absolutely no play (same with Mageta the Lion, btw). It takes a lot for a 5-mana spell to be Legacy playable, and I don't see Elspeth being nearly good enough.

Also one is Blue, while the other is White (very important). If Jace, the Mind Sculptor was Red, it would be interesting to see what type of play he would get.

[GGoober]

My take on E2.0 on the Landstill thread.


I gave her the hands down immediately, but I am rethinking her spot again in UWx landstill.

Trends that I observed with Elspeth 1.0 when playing landstill:
1) Great staller against aggro/goyfs. If you're faced against 1 creature, you can keep chumping and digging for answers. However, when faced against 2 or more creatures, she becomes a couple of Fogs as your opponents whittle her down.
2) Wins games (FAST, +3/+3 flying is one of the best)
3) Ultimate is relevant but only used about 10% in most games. I usually just race with +3/+3. Landstill doesn't have a ton of time in most matchups anyway.

Comparing with Elspeth 2.0 on the numbered points:
1) E2.0 is perhaps an even better staller, generating 3 creatures to chump. Her +2 ability can net you some life to stabilize, but it's not too synergistic with factories (involves tapping mana to activate, and sometimes you may need to leave mana untapped. However, noting that E2.0 is 5cmc, by then you should be able to free some mana to use her +2 ability). The only issue with E2.0 is that if you want to ramp her loyalty, you're not getting much by playing landstill even with Factories. You really want to use her -2 first to stabilize a board position, and start stabilizing your life total with her +2 to make it beneficial. Unless you're planning on blowing the board or really need 2-4 life, her first ability is not strong in Landstill until after her -2 has been used. This is the only design flaw I see her if she's played in Landstill.
2) Wins games SLOW. 1/1 soldiers aint too good compared to 4/4 flying ones or 5/5 flying factories. Also NOTE that since it's a -2 ability to generate tokens, you can't spam it unlike E1.0 where you just keep spamming 1/1s or flying attackers. E2.0 will be a more dominant board generator while E1.0 is a more aggresive card. However, three 1/1 soldiers is perhaps much more relevant in most situations in Landstill when faced against aggro, just 1 activation of this will buy about 2-3 turns, and this is huge for a control deck to stabilize.
3) Ultimate is much more relevant in Landstill than E1.0's. Re-usable disk is huge. Not to mention that unlike Disk, she cannot be gripped so she presents a big threat. Either your opponents overextends into counterspell-removal to kill her or they stall with their board, in both situations you win more.

From a brief analysis, we can see how much more defensive a card E2.0 is compared to E1.0, and personally I think this is the selling point of the card in Landstill. Landstill usually requires a defensive strategy before gaining a position to win. For 1 mana more, E2.0 covers much more defense than E1.0. I personally think this is a worthy consideration in Landstill. I personally think the split 3 Jace2.0 and 2 Elspeth 2.0 is great on the curve. Perhaps the 4cc,5cc bombs will be something like:

3 Jace 2.0
2 4cc bombs (FoF/Humility/WoG)
2 Elsepth 2.0

The nice thing about 2.0 is that she fits as a flex slot for traditional slots of Decree and WoG/Disk. I feel that she's a hybrid utility card of Decree + WoG mixed together. The power of Planeswalkers in Landstill is their plethora of abilities that gives the deck additional 'interaction' advantage. Many times a Landstill player can win on the back of a Planeswalker even at a board/card disadvantage because the planeswalker creates more interaction for the landstill players. Instead of just the opponents interacting with the landstill player's hands/life/board, they are now forced to dedicate their resources to answering the planeswalker, and since these planeswalkers dont die easy, it buys time for the Landstill player to set up strategies against those decks. E2.0 to me is potential move towards diversifying strategy interaction and minimizing redundant card slots (she combines effects of E1.0/Decree/Disk all in 1 card).

The important trend to note for which Planeswalkers make it into Landstill are:
1) relevant abilities that defend the player (Elspeth has 1/1 soldiers, Jace 2.0 has bounce or BS into removal/answers, Ajani has Helix and Icy ability)
2) Ultimates that gains a huge board advantage or win games (Elsepth 1.0 not too relevant since it requires another card to abuse this advantage, Ajani ggnub, Jace 2.0 ggfnub)
3) Ease of casting (cmc): E1.0, J2.0, Ajani are all 4cmc. J1.0 was solely played in older lists because it came down much faster.

E2.0 has the strong points for being a contender based on 1), 2). The only issue is 3). However, if we honestly ask ourselves, how many times have we almost won a game on turn 20 but failed in the end because we still did not stabilize? I feel E2.0 not only gives good board position to stabilize with her -2, but she restores the important hp boost with a 2-6pt life gain (on average) from her +2, and her ultimate just resets the board and we all know how resetting the board favors a victory for the landstill player. Her ultimate also hits anything: Artifacts, planeswalkers, enchantments, so it's an answer against any deck in Legacy: enchantress/stax/countertop/progenitus/emrakul etc. I just see her as a WoG on a Planeswalker with two very relevant abilities in the strategies of LAndstill.

Another thing to note that E2.0's ultimate is not cool with J2.0 but her -2 ability really makes her J2.0's best friend.

She's probably only playable in Landstill in Legacy though.

[Humphrey]

After playing LS for a while ive found Elspeth1 nice, but the problem ist the doubleW and its a white card, sometimes you need to pitch a Jace into FoW because of the low blue count, Else2 doesnt help here too. Thats why lots of lists only run JAce now.

[GGoober]

Actually, WW isn't the problem. I have been playing Landstill for about 2-3 years now. Most UWx builds are heavier white anyway. Take a look at the older lists about a year ago, we ran cards like WoG/Humility/Elspeth all MD. In fact, we don't play a lot of UU spells.

The issue with WW in Landstill now is the desire to not play WoG in the MD anymore, and Elspeth is the only card that is white-based in the deck these days. Since the printing of Jace 2, blue is becoming a more important color in the new Landstill, and this trend is further emphasized with the popularity of counterspell in the present meta where the format has slowed down a little (I mentioned about the demise of the once-popular Spell Snare as Counterspell took over since threats are now more diverse in terms of cmc, and counterspell is becoming more relevant in solving the present-day problems).

The fact that E2.0 is WW is not an argument to not run her. E1.0 is WW too, and a simple 6 fetch + 2Plains supports WW requirements in the deck all day even in a meta of wastelands and stifles. The only issue here with E2.0 is that:

1) It is not an aggressive card like E1.0 and sometimes landstill needs that aggressive aspect to stabilize/race or win games
2) it is 1 colorless mana more.
3) Unlike E1.0, she has -2 Loyalties putting her into bolt range.

When evaluating a card, I do not simply use statements as "it dies to bolt", "it dies to counterspell/removal". Everything has a weakness. Does that stop us from playing Bobs/Goyfs even though they die to removal? No. People say that E2.0 dies to bolt after her -2. True. But let's take at the scenarios where this argument is perhaps misleading.

Assume E1.0 comes out against Zoo making a token putting her at +5. If the opponent has just 1 creature out, E1.0 will not die anytime soon nor against a bolt. E2.0 comes out against Zoo and makes 3 tokens putting her at +1. If the opponent has 1 creature and a bolt, she dies. So E1.0 wins here. Now, assume E1.0 comes out against Zoo making a token putting her at +5. If the opponent has just 2 creatures out, E1.0 will die to a bolt anyway as the other creature beats past. E2.0 comes out and puts 3 tokens and ends up at +1. She dies to Bolt anyway but she can block an additional creature, providing more cushion. I can guarantee you that most games in landstill involves the 2nd situation and this is not just against Zoo matchups. There are obviously situations where you face against an aggro deck that has only 1 creature on board and you drop a Planeswalker. In that situation, you win anyway regardless of the Planeswalker.

When evaluating E2.0, and speaking specifically of Landstill since I don't see her being played in Legacy at all except in Landstill, I take note on how the card fits in the deck's strategy rather than just looking at the card and saying it's not viable. If you look closely in her roles in Landstill, you realize that she has a lot of potential. For a landstill deck that is more aggressive and removal heavy, E1.0 is a better choice, but I feel that for most landstill decks that are in general defensive and seeking a strong game 1 against all matchup, the cushion E2.0 provides and her flexibility as a card alone (E1.0 requires removal to make her ultimate worthwhile, and with the same flaw of Jace2.0, E1.0 is only super if your opponent's board is clear) makes her a strong candidate. Unlike E1.0, E2.0 can come into play on a bad board position and hope to stabilize. If it's against non-zoo decks, you don't have to worry about bolts as much, and ask ourselves honestly, how many decks besides Zoo play bolts in today's meta?

I rather have three tokens at one go, giving a bigger defense to use her +2 for maybe 2 more turns, and let my opponents overextend into her ultimate trying to kill her while I counter anything that stops that. Her +2 is actually very relevant most of the time. Gaining just 4 life in Landstill is fairly important when stabilizing against certain decks. All in all, I feel that although E2.0 is not as good as E1.0 card-wise, but strategy-wise I think she does more than E1.0.

This is just what I have from my experience on playing Landstill: you want cards that win you the game (checked on E2.0), you want cards that stabilize board position (E2.0 >E1.0) here, you want cards that generate card/board advantage (checked). E2.0 will be more tricky to play than E1.0 due to her -2 abilities, but I think when piloted right, you gain a lot more buffer than E1.0, and a lot more potential against a variety of matchups.

[JamieW89]

If it was 4 mana I'd probably test it.
The + ability seems pretty useless (only matchup where it would really be nice is burn which kills you before turn 6).
The 3 tokens is nice, but using it will put her in bolt range, which I don't like.
Elspeth is a better win condition using flying 5/5 factories or 4/4 tokens.
And the ultimate isn't the reason why you'd play this card, same with Elspeth v1. It's just a nice side-effect really.

Might be decent in standard though.

[Versus]

Does this mean I can play Outpost again?!

Seriously though, other token generators and some controlish stuff could help here, no? Don't actually make tokens with Elspeth, just drop her when you're ready to clear the board? Not saying that's a competitive option in Legacy, just sayin'.

[ivanpei]

Has this thread more or less died? I think that elspeth is busted (especially in standard), but in legacy, she's too expensive and they are better cards at wrapping up the game (cough, jace 2.0, cough) for control. However, what about mono white control? Something like Quinn? I know that deck will never be tier one due to combo, but I thought it would be interesting to try and make it competitive for budget players to enjoy. That deck is dirt cheap to make anyway and beats lots of the aggro and aggro-control out there.

Quinn plays stuff like humility and wrath of god to gain control of the board. In addition it uses decree of justice and elspeth to rape people under humility. Elspeth 2.0 IMO should replace elspeth 1 in Quinn. I think mono-white control with Elspeth 2.0 might actually be a good budget deck for new players to enjoy.

Elspeth 2.0, to me is a recurring Nev's disk, that makes tokens to win the game. End of story (the extra life is not that important other than against aggro with reach like zoo). I play her in EDH and usually I drop her in the following situations:

1. Under pressure:
She generates 1.5 creatures a turn. My opponent has a dude in play, I drop elspeth and make dudes (2 Loyalty 3 tokens), he swings I block. I pump for life (4 loyalty, 2 tokens), he swings, I pump again (6 loyalty, 1 token). He swings, block. I planar cleasing (down to 1 loyalty). He is better than elspeth 1 in this case for control because he can essentially tap down a creature, and eventually kill it by himself. After that, you can pump him back up to planar cleansing mode again or just keep spewing out tokens.

2. As a tranquility/shatterstorm:
Under counterbalance lock? Drop her, pump, next turn: Clean up.

3. On an empty board/top deck mode:
Pump her once, next turn pump her again (8 loyalty), make tokens (6 loyalty), pump.... repeat
She closes out games by being a recurring sweeper. Opponents won't be able to swing into her with just 1 dude every turn, due to elspeth making 1.5 tokens a turn- your army still grows while losing a token a turn by 0.5/turn, neither will they be able to swamp over with multiple dudes because her planar cleansing is online anytime. Having your tokens around after cleansing is very good too for making sure you kill in time.

Elspeth 1.0 was not a control tool. It was an unkillable kill condition that conveniently keeps 1 creature in check while you search for an answer. Then it makes serra angels out of your tokens for the quick kill. Elspeth 2.0 is a control tool + win condition. It actually controls the board with no extra help. IMO she's still very much worse than Jace 2.0. On a planeswalker power level scale I would say Jace 2.0 is a 10/10, Elspeth 1.0 is 8/10 and elspeth 2.0 is right below at 7/10. She will only find a place in very niche decks though, but I won't say she is totally unplayable.

[Koby]

3. On an empty board/top deck mode:
Pump her once, next turn pump her again (8 loyalty), make tokens (6 loyalty), pump.... repeat


You spend 4 turns before you can attack with 1/1s. This situation Elspeth 1 is better in. Then again, nearly every planeswalker is amazing in an empty board state and during topdeck wars. Even Chandra is good here (12 dmg in 3 turns). Not to derail - here's my thoughts on Elsy 2:

I think her role is much better in Standard where making tons of tokens (and subsequently pumping them with Crusade effects) is the best use. For her cost and effect, making 3 tokens repeatedly is a huge game changing effect. I can definitely see a WW/u deck forming that utilizes Planeswalkers for reach. Ex: make 3 dudes with Elsy, pump with Ajani; or make 3 dudes, cast Venser and attack unblockable.

[GGoober]

I think prematurely dismissing Elspeth 2.0 is a mistake at the moment. There's only 1 deck that she fits in and that's Landstill/control. So far, the only big reason not to play her is her cost: 3WW is quite a line compared against 2WW.

But the reasons to play her are quite huge:
- Having 3 soldiers coming down 1 turn is much more relevant than 1 soldier. It gives you more option to decide how to block, not to mention 3 1/1 + Factory can take out a Goyf. Elspeth 1.0 is really good against a single threat on the board but becomes weaker when opponents have more than 1.

Her -2 Loyalty putting her at 2 Loyalty does suck, but not many decks pack Lightning Bolts outside of Zoo and UGr Thresh (not too popular deck right now).

Her ultimate is very relevant, and can win game 1 matchups ranging from aggro to Stax to Enchantress.

The key strength of Elspeth 2.0 compared against Elspeth 1.0 is this very sole fact:
** Elspeth 2.0's abilities are very strong without requiring other cards to back her up. Elspeth 1.0 when facing against more than 1 creature, requires you to draw removal/counterspells to keep the board under control to back her to win games. Elspeth 1.0's ultimate rarely comes up and if it does, is only relevant if you have something to back her up with, i.e. if you can hit +8 loyalty over 5 turns without getting her dead it probably means that you are constantly playing out removal/counterspell to keep her in that state.

Now assume that you draw bad and can no longer back Elspeth 1.0, then her abilities become very irrelevant:
+1: 1/1 Soldier inevitably chumps a couple of turn before E1.0 dies.
+1: +3/+3 no longer becomes relevant if you're just putting out 1/1 soldiers to survive
+8: Ultimate is useless since you are still putting out 1/1 Soldiers.

On the other hand, Elspeth 2.0 can survive very well on her own without much support cards aside from dying to bolt-range:
+2: gain life, irrelevant but using it with:
-2: three 1/1 soldiers can block at least 2-3 creatures a turn. If you have just factory, the three 1/1 soldier can put up to a total of 6 power killing even a 6/7 goyf.

You alternate between +2/-2, gaining some life in the process (quite relevant in stabilizing), and you net out far more blockers, giving you more room and time to draw into removal. The sheer fact that she puts out three soldiers in one turn, gives you the option to handle the board better e.g. killing a 2/2 with two soldier, chumping a 4/5 goyf, or killing a 4/5 goyf with a factory + 2 soldier and leaving a soldier to block for another turn to use her +2 and then -2 to put out three soldiers again. this point, your opponent is in a dilemma: overextend to get through and risk losing to her ultimate, or let Elspeth 2.0 stabilize and hit up to 5 loyalty and sealing the game state up.

All in all, she fits in the defensive strategy much more strongly than Elspeth 1.0, granted that Elspeth 1.0 is very good at winning games, but I have been attracted to v2.0 solely on her ultimate, which shores up any matchup really, Stax/Enchantress/Aggro. I feel that she fills in a much more relevant role than Elspeth 1.0 in the deck. Her 3WW is an issue, but I win games with Landstill on turns 8-12. So I think it's fine that she fits in at the 5cc slot, because the games I lose with Landstill are the games that I fail to stabilize, and E1.0 doesn't do a good job at stabilizing if your opponent has 2 creatures and applying pressure.

To make up for the 3WW cost, my current setup for the 3cc+ slots in Landstill are:

2 Crucible (3 Wasteland, 4 Factories MD)
2 Decree of Justice
3 Jace 2.0
1 Humility
2 Elspeth 2.0

With a package of 4 StP, 3 EE, 2 Path, 4 Counterspell to ensure that my early game is stable enough against aggro. 2 Crucible makes hitting 4-5 lands much easier, and I have not turned back since playing it. It beats tempo/Wastelands very strong and is really THE most efficient card AND resource advantage engine aside from Jace 2.0 in the deck. I think if you want to test Elspeth 2.0, you really need 2 crucibles to ensure land drops and stability of 4-5 lands to play her as consistently as lists playing Elspeth 1.0 without Crucibles.

Note that Elspeth 2.0 has some powerful synergy with Decree. Cycle Decree EOT for chump blockers etc and play Elspeth 2.0 and go +2 (gain some nice life as a plus) while having Decree soldiers to block, then fire off with her ultimate next turn and gain the game state from there on.

Elspeth 1.0 will win you games much faster though however. Elspeth 2.0 will control the game in more scenarios. So it's a preference and playstyle on how you approach Landstill.

[ivanpei]

I'm with you Metalwalker, I think elspeth 2.0 is prefectly playable in UW landstill. I don't know about the 2 decrees though. I think its overkill to have so many win cons :). Anyway, in landstill, she fits the role of akroma's vengeance (anyone still remember playing that?) from the old days. She does so many things, that justifies her 5 mana cost IMO. I'd play her over elspeth 1.0 in UW landstill.

[DragoFireheart]

I could see myself using her but how the hell will you get around Daze/Spell Pierce/Wasteland?

[Tacosnape]

5-drops aren't playable in Legacy unless one of the following is true:

1. You can do something pretty significant with it without hardcasting it for 5. (See Force of Will.)
2. You have significant mana acceleration and/or a way to cheat it into play and said 5-drop has a high chance of directly or indirectly winning you the game. (See Ad Nauseam.)

Neither of these two is true. Pass on Elspeth Tiriel. Jace the Mind Sculptor's probably better for Landstill, cheaper to cast, more on color, and pitches to Force of Will.

[GGoober]

Disagree Taco but it's all a matter of opinions and how you view things:

The same was said for 4-drops in Legacy:

"4-drops aren't playable in Legacy unless one of the following is true:

1. You can do something pretty significant with it without hardcasting it for 4. (None)
2. You have significant mana acceleration and/or a way to cheat it into play and said 4-drop has a high chance of directly or indirectly winning you the game. (See None, maybe Aluren)

Neither of these two is true. Pass on Jace TMS. Jace Beleren is probably better for Landstill, cheaper to cast, more on color, and pitches to Force of Will."

Jace was for the longest time dismissed in Legacy. 4-drops have never been considered in decks outside of Stax/stompy manabases, but Jace has shown up in almost every blue deck that goes into the mid-game. Jace doesn't do anything significant with point 1) i.e. you still need to power him through hate and turns to fully reap the benefits. 2) He doesn't win you games straight, and you need to carry him over. In fact decklists have been sculpted and modified to fit Jace 2.0 in. Since he is so powerful over the course of the game, you want to protect/resolve him as much as possible. Meta has been shifting in response to Jace 2.0 as well as decks take into consideration how to deal with him, so decklists are evolving until the decks we see today, and Jace has finally made a hit in Legacy.

What I'm pointing at is the flaw in your arguments. I don't disagree that Elspeth 2.0 is weak. She is much weaker than Jace, so much weaker, but we can say that for a lot of cards when compared against Jace. The issue here isn't comparing her to card x where x is a recognized good card in Legacy, it's about seeing how she might be played in deck y. I've tested her out a couple of times, with pleased/displeased results so I'm not making any conclusions yet. AFAIK she does NOT fit well in a traditional Landstill build, and the question is whether a modified landstill build with Elspeth 2.0 > traditional landstill build with Elspeth 1.0, I doubt the modified list will be better but I'm not dismissing the idea too early at this point of time.

@Dragofireheart: How the hell do you dodge waste/pierce/daze when playing ANYTHING? My answer: your deck design limits your deck strategy and how you play your deck. I'll give you an example: 'Traditional' landstill without any crucibles but packing more Spell Snares and removal have a stronger early game, so they drag the fundamental turn longer by controlling the early game until they hit 5-6 lands and resolve Jace. 'Modified' landstill lists (ironically the very classic landstill lists) with 1-2 Crucibles can play around Waste/daze by resolving Crucible. Crucible will ensure land drops, and costs 3cc, so allowing you to play around dazes/pierces by 'redirecting' the 4cc/5cc slots to the 3cc slot of Crucible i.e. you play around Daze/pierce when resolving crucible around daze/pierce and once this is resolved everything else is 'immune' to daze/pierce effects unless you walk into two copies which you can't do anything about it even with playing with Elspeth 1.0.