Elves (yet again) + Vengevine Survival + NOProg

[4eak]

Current List:

// Lands -- 22
4 Wasteland
3 Gaea's Cradle
15 Forest

// Survival Pwn -- 10
4 Vengevine
2 Basking Rootwalla
4 Survival of the Fittest

// NOPwn -- 5
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

// Elves -- 23
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Joraga Warcaller
3 Viridian Zealot

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Caller of the Claw
SB : 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst



Original Post:

// Lands -- 22
4 Wasteland
3 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath

// Survival Pwn -- 10
4 Vengevine
2 Basking Rootwalla
4 Survival of the Fittest

// NOPwn -- 5
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

// Elves -- 23
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Champion
3 Viridian Zealot

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Caller of the Claw
SB : 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst

Elves produce green mana (news flash), and that makes them very effective at chain-surviving Vengevines or dropping NOProg early and consistently. The lord-aggro + hardcast Vengevine backup plan isn't terrible either.

The land-count is high only because my testing pushed me to do so. I never thought an elf deck should play so many lands, but it has put up better results for me. ESG merits testing.




peace,
4eak

[median]

I think your on the right track with vengevines and natural order together. My feeling is that the right shell will have a plan A of tarmogoyf and tempo. I don't think the elves plan will work with so little of the deck devoted to them.
Just my .02$

[Amon Amarth]

Why are you playing Fetches?

[Grollub]

Why are you playing Fetches?
To fetch Arbor I assume, however my gut instinct says it'd be better to drop the fetches and be immune to random fetchhate.

A maindeck green fatty of choice (I'd go for the 'stodon) would seem like a decent fit, with all the elf mana it'd be very hardcastable.

[kinda]

He can fetch dryad arbor for natural order.

There's already a lot of excel/creatures in the deck, I would cut the fetches/arbor for forests and 2 cradle for port. Zealot seems really weak md...and too an extent priest looks weak too. I could cut some of those for the third lord. Vial seems good...but I know elves doesn't run it for some reason.

[kicks_422]

There's a mono-Green Survival deck that T8'd recently. It's on deckcheck.net. You might be able to get some good ideas there.

[Maveric78f]

Hi 4eak,

A quick reply with several remarks:
- you want to play Wirewood Symbiote. It's easier to play 2 creatures with those, and it protects your elves from removal. It also produces loads of mana.
- speaking about loads of mana, I think you want Woodfall Primus or Terrastodon as a tutorable target both with NO and SotF. You can hardcast it. that's the point.
- Wasteland looks pointless. Play mana elves, symbiote or Quirion Ranger.
- Rootwallas look pointless too. Well at least 1 of them since it's as cheap to tutor for a mana elves than use the second for tutoring something else.
- Zealot is bad because it dies to plague and does nothing against humility. You will need another anti-artifact enchantment in SB anyway. As fo myself, I prefer primus or even 1 Viridian Shaman which comboes well with symbiote.
- 3 cradles are a lot. 2 should be enough. You never want 2 of them and they make you mulligan too often.
- I don't like Dryad Arbor. You should never need him actually with the number of elves you play.
- I would keep only 1 Champion as a fetchable slot and play 2 or 3 Imperious Perfect that are very good with untappers (symbiote and quirion).

[Pastorofmuppets]

You seem to be capable of making a ton of mana.
Joraga Warcaller is probably better than champion.

[4eak]

I appreciate the replies, thanks. Let me first say, I've actually tested most of your ideas; this is what I've arrived at after testing. I didn't give strong explanations in the opening post, but I'll do that now.

Why Fetches + Arbor? -- I initially didn't play it, citing immunity to Stifle and avoiding opening hands where Arbor cost me tempo or remained vulnerable to removal. The usual reason was to have it for NOProg, but I found it valuable in other circumstances as well. A serious weakness to the deck is opposing sweepers, especially as this is a deck which has no choice but to overextend. Sweeping stops your combos, it stops your mana development, and it can leave you with very little left on the table. Arbor helps to curb the effects of sweepers and even allows me to win in certain cornercases. Sweeping can devastate a mana-base, and I've been forced to end-step fetch or survival for arbor to use as a land (making cradle function after a major sweep as well). That said, plain forests are quite appealing, and I will be testing it again.

Why not a hard-castable (and/or NO-able, Green) fatty in the Main? -- Again, I initially tried out several. The situation where the card was worth playing didn't come up as often as the card just sitting dead in my hand (Arbor at least improves Cradle and taps for mana). If you have Survival, you'll be putting Vengevines into play very quickly and with much fewer mana requirements. As for NO, the vast majority of the time Progenitus is far stronger. As to harcasting, te deck is trying to win/combo before you have the mana to hardcast an +8cc creature. I ended up just moving a Terastodon to the sideboard because there are a handful of prison matchups where he can make/break the game.

Why Viridian Zealot? -- Why Qasali Pridemage? Both cards have strong synergies in their respective decks and they provide (what I believe to be) necessary Disenchant effects. It answers a wide array of powerful cards, I'm surprised people speak against this card. Initially, I ran only one (and it would be a distinct mistake not to have at least 1 for which to Survive), but I found myself wanting it so often that I started running 2 and then 3. Also, the argument that these cards don't answer Humility is poor. There are no creature-based answers to Humility (else, I'd be running 1). If Humility lands g1, you pretty much lost it unless you can get lucky and race them with 1/1's. I run Grips in the side. Shaman is terrible, btw.

Why Wasteland (and not Port)? -- Wasteland is terrific; Elves should always play it. Wasteland increases the asymmetry between your tempo generation and your opponent's. E.g. Turn 1 Llanowar, turn 2 Waste + Deploy a 2cc asset. You get to continue playing out your hand very quickly while greatly stunting the growth of your opponent's gameplan. I did try out Port. Port seems like a natural fit, however, the green requirements are extremely high (in my view). If I played board control and Vial (like GW Survival or Goblins), and I was actually looking to force the game into the mid/late stages, Port would have made the cut. Plain Forest is better than Port though.

Why so many Cradle? -- I suppose I see Cradle as being more akin to Maze of Ith than a regular mana source. It is a card which performs a function, but it soaks up a land drop for the turn as part of its cost. Function: Cradle is (because there are non-elves is better than) uncounterable, hasted, free-mana-cost Priests 9-11. When looking at mulligans, don't treat the card as an initial mana source; Cradle does not replace Forests 1 for 1 -- you still need a certain threshold of starting mana sources, and Cradle isn't one of them. The function is broken good; I really, really want to see Cradle every game. Having multiples isn't terribly common, but even when you do see more than 1, that isn't necessarily a bad thing either. You have ~42% chance to be playing against a deck playing Wasteland in competitive (makes top 8) Legacy, and Cradle is the number 1 target. Having multiples isn't necessarily a bad thing at all.

Why not Symbiote and/or Quiron Ranger? -- I usually play a full complement of them in Elves, but there isn't enough room to run the full set here. I did try singletons of them. When I did draw them in my opening, they were 'meh', and when I had Survival, it turned out to be a waste my time getting these cards. These cards are much stronger in traditional builds of elves, imho.

Why 2x Rootwalla? -- Hey, I don't like the card either. Rootwalla is a necessary evil. If you've played Vengevine Survival enough, you'll have run into a ton of times where you wish you had Rootwalla (and even the 2nd Rootwalla). Firespout is very good against this deck. If you empty your hand trying to dump Vengevines into play and get swept, it is very nice to be able to convert any topdeck creature into a Rootwalla + another creature (letting you combo very consistently a second time, even after overextending into board sweepers). Additionally, the 2nd Rootwalla allows you to play Vengevines at instant speed, which is extremely potent.

Why that Lord configuration? -- Particularly, why 4x Champions? I had (incorrectly) presumed Forestwalk would be more relevant (as it often can be in pure aggro-elves). I will be trying Imperious Perfect and Joraga Warcallers out over 3x Champions. I initially had tried a single Joraga, but when I have Survival, I never ran into a case where Vengevine wasn't just plain more mana efficient for the P/T. However, multiple Joraga or Imperious Perfect might be better for the times when I have mana to blow but no Survival or NO available. Strengthening the backup beatdown plan is still important, so I'll continue testing these suggestions as well.



peace,
4eak

[4eak]

After further testing:

-1 Dryad Arbor
-7 Forest
-4 Misty Rainforest
-3 Windswept Heath
+15 Forest

-4 Elvish Champion
+4 Joraga Warcaller

SB: -1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: +1 Squee, Goblin Nabob



I'm back to my original Forests, they are fine. I still want a better answer to sweepers and strong removal, particularly Firespout; Squee may have to do (even if it isn't perfect).
I tried several configurations of Lords, and frankly Joraga has been the best for all 4 slots.

Forestwalking Elves just isn't relevant enough to a deck which plays NOP and Survival Vengevine.
A tutorable token pumping engine hasn't been impressive either.
If I'm drawing a non-Archdruid Lord, I usually have a shit ton of mana to dump into it, and Joraga makes the most of it.
For hands that straight up don't give a shit if I have Lords (Survival or NOProg), playing Joraga for a plain :g: is actually relevant to Cradle/Priest/Archdruid.

Viridian Zealot continues to be amazing. Tons of relevant (even game making/breaking) targets in game 1. Game 2, the ability to answer GY hate is wonderful (and easy to tutor if you haven't already drawn one). I'll be testing the 4th one.


Take the deck for a spin. It is very explosive, moreso than GW and UG Vengevine Survival (given how effectively the deck generates green mana) or any NOProg variant I've seen (because there are so many green creatures and how easily the deck gets to 4 mana), but largely in part because I play both combos (obviously, I've sacrificed control elements of these archetypes for consistency and speed of both combos). If you have a Vengevine or Rootwalla in hand with a Survival in play, it costs :g::g::g::g::g::g: to put 18/14 power and toughness on the table (16 of it hasted). That is hyper-efficient, and again, the elf deck has the best odds of producing that sort of mana.




peace,
4eak

[troopatroop]

You really want to be playing 2-3 taiga and 1 Anger. It makes Survival alot stronger, and Natural Order.

[4eak]

While I agree that Anger's haste has historically been strong in Survival, I am not convinced it is very useful in Vengevine Survival. Vengevine already has haste. Anger, at best, gives a priest haste that you didn't have before. Anger costs an extra :g: in the combo. If you have 6 green mana, then you should just combo into 4x Vengevines; if you have 5, you could go for 3x Vengevines. Anything less, and you might as well just take one more turn to put the full combo into play. A cornercase might be where you have only Taiga for a land, 4 Llanowar Elves in play, you absolutely must combo 4x Vengevine this turn, you have a Vengevine in hand + another creature, then you can spend :1::g::g::g: to get Anger in the GY, Priest in play, tap Priest for 5 and combo out. If you aren't in nearly that exact position (or perhaps chaining multiple Priests on the same turn), Anger is usually unnecessary. In the majority of cases, you'll have the 6 mana, or go for 3x Vengevines (rare) at 5 mana, or you'll be comboing over 2 turns instead of 1 (assuming 4 or less mana).

Anger doesn't help Progenitus very much because it isn't easy to get Anger into the GY when you are NOing on Turn 3. You generally play either an early survival or an early NOP, but very rarely will you need both.




peace,
4eak

[Infinitium]

Mayhap a singleton Quirion Ranger to tutor for with Survival and secure the manaflow?

Also remember that Wirewood Symbiote can rawdog the Equipment-denying aspect of Zealot and can singlehandedly activate Vengevine with another Elf on the board in the Survival chain. I'd play 4 for sure, possibly replacing some of the Wastelands (which I don't get; you're not playing any meaningful denial plan and Maze/Tabernacle are generally non-issues anyway - sure it can sometimes deny a board sweeper but building your mana by elves will be hard in the meantime as coy opponents puts a target on any and all mana producers you've got) and Rootwallas.

[median]

Have you thought about an Ornithopter or 0cc creature to use to end the chain, it essentially let's you put one more Vengevine out.

[Justin]

You might have too many engines going on at once here. I would cut the NO/Pro plan and use those slots to strengthen the Survival engine.

I would add a Squee. Madness/Vengevine decks don't play him because they are tight on mana. However, an Elves version can generate so much extra mana that it's worth paying G to get a personal Howling Mine.

I also recommend Emrakul as a one-of. You can fetch it with Survival and you will always win the game whenever it resolves. Getting to 15 mana is not so difficult.

You might also add a Fauna Shaman or two to improve your chances of finding a tutor engine.

[4eak]

@ Infinitium


Mayhap a singleton Quirion Ranger to tutor for with Survival and secure the manaflow?

As I said above, I have tried this. Both Quirion Ranger and Symbiote were in my original builds. They are not as useful as you might think in this deck. Seriously, try the deck with and without these cards; it doesn't play out to be so great (as it traditionally does in many Elf builds). Land light elf decks which actually want multiple Priest taps (or have other elves worth untapping) in a single turn make great use of the card; this deck differs in that it runs a lot of land, ramps up to 4 or 6 mana and generally wins on the spot. These cards are strong in pure-elf combo decks (with CitP effects, massive draw, and/or against opposing targeted removal), but the combos in this deck make little use of Quiron Ranger and Symbiote, and their addition to the ramp is somewhat unnecessary.


I'd play 4 for sure, possibly replacing some of the Wastelands (which I don't get; you're not playing any meaningful denial plan and Maze/Tabernacle are generally non-issues anyway - sure it can sometimes deny a board sweeper but building your mana by elves will be hard in the meantime as coy opponents puts a target on any and all mana producers you've got) and Rootwallas.

Some number of Forests would need to replace Wasteland if I did cut them. As per my initial post; the high-land count is a result of testing; it was not my initial presumption either. You really do want a lot of land. The nice part of Wasteland is that even when you feel like you have slightly more land than you need, you can trade them to apply pressure to your opponent's manabase without feeling a corresponding lack of lands available. In this case, some might go so far as to say Wasteland itself is just a (nearly) uncounterable and (nearly) free spell which just so happens to tap for mana, but in other cases, tapping for mana (even though it is colorless) remains relevant often enough that we should consider Wasteland as part of the initial mana sources.

I'm not sure why you don't get the Wastelands though. The card is generically powerful in Legacy in general, but it is exceptional in (if not born for) tempo decks like elves; I'm not sure how you don't see that. I'd play 8 if I could (Port, sadly, is not the same). Yes, Daze/Stifle have huge disruptive synergy with Wasteland, but Wasteland is also extremely synergistic with Elf-ball mana-ramps and Noble Hierarch because (as I said before) Wasteland increases the asymmetry of tempo between you and your opponent. It isn't easy to model how much Wasteland affects the asymmetry, but I'm convinced Wasteland is extremely strong not just in aggro-decks in general, but especially good in a deck which can make use of that time which is bought through the use of a tempo-ramp (which requires several turns), such as Vial or Elf-ball.


@ median


Have you thought about an Ornithopter or 0cc creature to use to end the chain, it essentially let's you put one more Vengevine out.

The cards aren't Elves or Green (which is relevant for Priests, Lords, and NO), and they are innately pretty weak in themselves for the backup beatdown roll, which are strikes against them. Also, what should they replace, and why do you think this is a good replacement? I get an extra Vengevine only if I don't already have 6 mana (which isn't too difficult to attain). I will try it out though. There are times where it could matter.


@ Justin


You might have too many engines going on at once here. I would cut the NO/Pro plan and use those slots to strengthen the Survival engine.

Give examples (other than Squee) of what you think will strengthen Survival in such a way that this added value to Survival is somehow more valuable than the ability to Natural Order for Progenitus (or other green creatures, such as Terastadon).

In my experience, the only thing which could come close would be using Enlightened Tutor in 4/5 of those slots (making your sideboard even stronger, nicely), as this would increase the consistency of the Survival engine to be anywhere near as consistent as having at least "some combo" available when you play both NO and Survival. This, of course, will slightly weaken your own manabase (but I'm willing to do that). Tutor and NO are both card disadvantage (although Tutor telegraphs way more information), that said, I think NOProg solves problems that Survival cannot. For example, Zoo with strong GY hate will sometimes (but not always) be able to prevent me from having the early mana to drop and pop a Zealot on their GY-hate in the same turn, simultaneously, they'll have the pressure to force me into needing to combo early; NOProg is very good here. Certain forms of board control which answer Vengevine Survival outright fail to answer NOProg.

Lastly, I think the elf-ball manabase (and green creature base) easily supports both combos, and there isn't really a dis-synergy in my experience.


I would add a Squee. Madness/Vengevine decks don't play him because they are tight on mana. However, an Elves version can generate so much extra mana that it's worth paying G to get a personal Howling Mine.

I do have Squee in the side for attrition battles, as without Squee, you have pretty minimal forms of card advantage available. I think Squee is generally weak in this deck though. I think GW and UG Survival have better reasons to play Squee though. The Elfball can easily combo all 4x Vengevines into play very early, and Squee is all too often win-more. Squee is actually more relevant to GW/UG because they engage in attritions battles (essentially control battles) far more often. Vengevines have made it so that it is when you are mana light that you want Squee, not when you are mana heavy. If you have lots of mana, you might as well go straight for the combo.


I also recommend Emrakul as a one-of. You can fetch it with Survival and you will always win the game whenever it resolves. Getting to 15 mana is not so difficult.

If you have Survival, why not go for Vengevines? There are few games that 4x Vengevines can't win that Emrakul can. And, please note there is a gigantic difference between producing :g::g::g::g::g::g: and :6: + :9:. Yes, it is possible to get enough elves into play where you can produce 15 mana, but if you already had that many elves in play, you were probably already winning. Vengevines can be comboed into play with very minimal resources, and essentially they win the game long before you even have the chance to cast Emrakul in the first place.


You might also add a Fauna Shaman or two to improve your chances of finding a tutor engine.

I tried this. My finding: Fauna shaman is stronger in control versions of Survival and much weaker in here. Fauna Shaman wins attrition battles (alongside Squee), but it requires at least 2 turns before it is really paying for itself. This is acceptable for a deck which seeks a midgame (because it is packing a relevant set of control cards), and may only have 1 or 2 Green mana on the table to begin with. This isn't acceptable for a deck which doesn't want a midgame, isn't looking for attrition battles, lacks relevant control cards, and also has enough green mana to activate Surival 6 times in the same turn. Fauna shaman doesn't make use of the elf-ball's mana ramp (which wins on raw tempo, not attrition).





peace,
4eak

[arebennian]

http://vimeo.com/15557672

Someone with the same idea, unless this is actually you 4Eak.

[johanessen]

What about:

13 Forest
3 Wasteland
4 Fhyndorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Vengevine
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Side:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Natural Order
1 Prog
1 Faerie Macabre
x Tormod's Crypt
x Krosan Grip
x Choke
(I say meta call)



This build is very fast, LED enables amazing fast plays of wurms, rootwallas and vengevines, and has great sinergy with survival also. quirion elves are there for fauna shaman tricks mainly but also adds consistency since we play mana guys and only 13 forests.

This build may need Serum Powder, who knows, never tried them.