4c time reversal control

[kiblast]

ok, since the day it came out, i've been in love with Time reversal. This card basically does what Timetwister does in Vintage: draws you 7 fresh cards and might cause gigantic card loss for opponent.

So, i thought that the only deck wich could abuse this card would be some sort of Cab-Jace variant, but with a bit more mana ramp to cast it very early in the game (turn 2-3 time reversal with empty hand is not so common but happened some times) that's why i put 4x grim monoliths and voltaic keys. This ramp can cause you to accidentally do 10 mana on turn 3-4, and so i decided to put an alt win con in the form of kozilek.
Then, as CabJace shell suggests, i added some heavy control pieces like 4x Firespout (though Cab plays 3 i feel more confortable with full playset) and 4x engineered explosives. The format is really aggrocontrol-ish, so have sure answers against turn one vial, turn one lackey is a nice thing.

new list, thanks for the inputs.

Deck: Untitled Deck (http://deckstats.net/deck-273629-9829698a5f89fbb1c90400c1bec9f4bb-en.html)

//Lands
4x Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Island)
2x Scalding Tarn (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Scalding+Tarn)
1x Tundra (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tundra)
1x Flooded Strand (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Flooded+Strand)
4x Maze of Ith (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Maze+of+Ith)
1x Academy Ruins (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Academy+Ruins)
2x Volcanic Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Volcanic+Island)
1x Tropical Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tropical+Island)
4x Mishra's Factory (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mishra%27s+Factory)
4x Ancient Tomb (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ancient+Tomb)
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=The+Tabernacle+at+Pendrell+Vale)
1x Tolaria West (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tolaria+West)

//Creatures
1x Inkwell Leviathan (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Inkwell+Leviathan)

//Spells
4x Grim Monolith (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Grim+Monolith)
2x Voltaic Key (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Voltaic+Key)
4x Engineered Explosives (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Engineered+Explosives)
4x Time Reversal (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Time+Reversal)
4x Mox Diamond (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mox+Diamond)
3x Firespout (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Firespout)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Jace%2C+the+Mind+Sculptor)
4x Force of Will (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Force+of+Will)
3x Counterspell (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Counterspell)
2x Transmute Artifact (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Transmute+Artifact)

//Sideboard
4x Krosan Grip (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Krosan+Grip)
4x Relic of Progenitus (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Relic+of+Progenitus)
4x Chalice of the Void (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Chalice+of+the+Void)
3x Spell Pierce (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Spell+Pierce)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display Deck Statistics (http://deckstats.net/deck-273629-9829698a5f89fbb1c90400c1bec9f4bb-en.html)

[kiblast]

any thoughts?

[Philipp2293]

I think 4 Jace is one too much, I would cut 1 for 1 more Cunning Wish. Other than I'll have to test it :)

[Mystical_Jackass]

Not really the way I'd do it personally. Voltaic Key just sucks in here, it only works with ONE card... and worse, you have no brainstorms or divining tops to really control your draw. I think maybe in a Mono Brown/Eldrazi beatdown deck maybe Key would work well, since you could run Thran Dynamo and use to untap creatures and such.

If I were running something like this, I'd keep the same concept of emptying your hand and dropping time reversal to keep refilling, but I'd probably make sure to run cards like Brainstorm and Force of Will & Counterspell to shut my opponent down while I build up to my finishers, the way I'm picturing is more similar to say... merfolk, how they drop critters then standstill to refill and continue to smash. I think cards like Lorescale Coatle would be pretty good in a deck like that for your game-ender.

[jrsthethird]

Holy shit Coatl + Time Reversal is sick! Too bad you give your opponent 7 chances to draw Swords. :cool:

[Jeff Kruchkow]

The mana is atrocious. I took this deck onto MWS for some games and every game I didnt get a Mox D, I had color troubles. The tombs or cities should become better lands, the T1 monolith plays arent worth it.

[Mystical_Jackass]

U/G just seems more naturally the way to go. You'd get all these good cards. . .

Time Reversal
Brainstorm
Force of Will
Spell Pierce
Standstill
Rancor

Tarmogoyf
Lorescale Coatl
Noble Heirarch
Sakura-Tribe Elder

I feel sorta lame mentioning a lot of the same hackneyed cards, but truth be told it just happens to be the best synergy I see at getting a 5cc card like that to work. Who knows, maybe you wouldn't even need Goyf if he proves to be too anti-synergetic with Time Reversal. If anything, Time Reversal may prove a good way in dealing with aggro Loam strategy.

[kiblast]

i'd like to keep firespout/explosives disruption, with no creatures to keep it asymmetrical.

Brainstorm
Force of Will
Spell Pierce

those would be good but firstly this deck relly gets into long games where spell pierces are almost useless. MAybe if we want to go to the control route we should add counterspell and forbid.

i'll test a bit and try again, i'll keep you updated. thanks!

[Tao]

Why would you ever want to play Time Reversal in a control deck? Your opponent also gets 7 cards and if he is Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, Ad Nauseam, Dredge, Madness Survival or anything else remotely aggressive he will kill you with those cards.

[kiblast]

3x firespout. 4x EE. do you really want to worry about zoo, gobbos and merfolk?

Also i heard that reshuffling the grave of the dredge player ( part of resolution of time reversal, reading cards is tech) will most likelyshut down their plan for at least 1 turn ; wich means 99% free timewalk against dredge since turn 1 win is freaking rare.

Madness survival? yeah i'm really scared of a deck who can play 2 4/3 haste on turn 3. see what i said for zoo gobbos etc. The only problem could be their counters but we have got academy ruins loop OR tabernacle to be fetched through tolaria west. Also tabernacle is huge against merfolk and gobbos, unless they hit wasteland, but they'll sac some creatures at least for one turn.

TES could be really though, but post side ive added 3 spell pierce because i imagined that it would be maybe the worst MU.

I've add some more control maindeck after playing with old decklist (wich i have to admit was a crappy bunch of cards, compared towhat is it now) and i have to say that now the deck is way more resilient, has more than 1 wincon ( just landed inkwell turn 3 thanks to Grim Monoliths <3). I will not remove Grims, they're great. Some examples: hardcast fow now IS possible. Early jaces. Early empty hand (i mean only 1 reversal in hand + land in turn 2, with 5 mana to cast reversal turn 3) Transmute grim into inkwell and response tap for 3, untap with key, tap for 3 netting 5 mana , so you basically need only 2 mana+2 for Transmute (2 from GM cost+5 from GM activations + 2 random mana like an Ancient tomb + 2 for transmute) to land a beautiful trampling shroud 7/11...and many more.

developing loads of mana is essential in this deck. I cutted 2 lands and i feel comfortable with 26 (although 27th might be added as 61card) and have an active counterspell on opponent's turn 0 is something godly.

please build this leviathan give it a try and let me know.

Also id like to change deck name...since its not 4 colours anymore.

[LOurs]

I'd like to use reversal also as I love the twister effect so much ...

But ! I think there are different possibles uses of TR but in each case, you have to ask yourself (i mean general you, not you in particular) if any other card could challenge it, and even could do better than TR.

1) Kill cond. yes, you could use the drawing effect as a win con component (as damage from a source like underworld dream, storm seeker ... or as a milling engine with chain of mephistopheles or other interaction like that). In this case, the deck should be oriented on that. This was the case of memory jar with megrim in example. That is not the case of your deck, not your direction I guess (regarding your list).

2) Utility. You could use it as a advantage provider : to play it provides you more solution than the opponent. But TR effect being symetrical and your deck being a control (you would need as untapped mana as possible during opponents turns), it seems very difficult once the casting cost considered... At this point Timetwister is far better, and time spiral, untapping your lands, is also far better... Even diminishing return with a quasi-similar effect is cheaper to cast, and then provides you almost the same situation. So in a control view, I think that the symetrical effect seems way too bad, unless you 1) are able to cast it at instant speed at the end of opponent turn (blue leyline?) or 2) you draw something to destroy opponent hand once TR casted (mind twist in example) and being able to cast it before the opponent use it. It seems pretty hard to make it work.
So the question is : in the same list, would cards like stroke of genius or even Jace's ingenuity be worse or better than TR ? I think they would definitly be better. Just my opinion though. But to be alone to draw even only 2/3 cards seems often much better than a symetrical draw 7 & shuffle your gy in libraries ...

To sum up, I think that if you really want to build something around TR, try to use it as a win con component, or i believe TR could be replaced by better/more efficiently cards. That said, I encourage you because I would enjoy to find an efficient TR build...

[GGoober]

Why not Time Spiral??? Keeping your mana open is far more important than being 1cc cheaper, especially if you're also giving your opponents a fresh hand, you want to make sure you have ways to answer threats that are incoming due to the symmetric effect of the draw7s

[Nidd]

Why not Time Spiral??? Keeping your mana open is far more important than being 1cc cheaper, especially if you're also giving your opponents a fresh hand, you want to make sure you have ways to answer threats that are incoming due to the symmetric effect of the draw7s
Because it's... uhm, like, banned?

[Tao]

3x firespout. 4x EE. do you really want to worry about zoo, gobbos and merfolk?

I dont think you have tested nearly enough vs. those decks if you think that playing 4 Explosives and 3 Firespout makes it a good matchup. I am not going to argue much, you are just obviously wrong. Go test a bit.

[GGoober]

Lol I did not know Time Spiral was banned kk my bad, this is a cool idea then :D

I'm still not sold that tapping out and giving your opponents 7 cards fits the control-theme. In a control deck, you usually win by card advantage after stabilizing, so tapping out to give your opponents a fresh 7 doesn't convince me so far. But in terms of what you get as a control deck, you may benefit more from the draw 7 than they do (except if they're playing combo)

[kiblast]

I dont think you have tested nearly enough vs. those decks if you think that playing 4 Explosives and 3 Firespout makes it a good matchup. I am not going to argue much, you are just obviously wrong. Go test a bit.

and 4 maze of ith plus tabernacle (fetchable with tolaria west), i don't know tao, i could squeeze in the 4th firespout, but i can't have half maindeck against merfolk and goblins. I mean, i think 13 cards maindeck are enough.

[kiblast]

2) But TR effect being symetrical and your deck being a control (you would need as untapped mana as possible during opponents turns), it seems very difficult once the casting cost considered... At this point Timetwister is far better, and time spiral, untapping your lands, is also far better... Even diminishing return with a quasi-similar effect is cheaper to cast, and then provides you almost the same situation. So in a control view, I think that the symetrical effect seems way too bad, unless you 1) are able to cast it at instant speed at the end of opponent turn (blue leyline?) or 2) you draw something to destroy opponent hand once TR casted (mind twist in example) and being able to cast it before the opponent use it. It seems pretty hard to make it work.


i appreciate your encouragement, but i'd also appreciate reading/testing before commenting, How you can say that its cmc is a problem in a deck fulfilled with mox diamonds, ancient tomb and grim monoliths+keys???

also: yeah mr. Obvious, timetwister is 10 times better, also is only playable in a thing called Vintage. As is Time spiral.

i mean, build the damn thing, at least read cards, THEN say it sucks.

ps: storm seeker as a finisher? for the lolz?

[LOurs]

I didnt want to do any offenses and i indeed didnt test the deck at the moment. If your deck works well i'm glad of. I just wanted to know what really justify this choice instead of others. The exemples i provided were caricatures, just to explain the idea. Just good luck with the deck i'll follow it.

[Killing Joke]

Seems like it needs less transmute artifact and more trinket mage.

[Tao]

The problem I have with this deck is that Time Reversal is an abysmal card in a control deck. So the thread topic by itself disqualifies the deck. Control decks win via card advantage and thats what their draw spells should do. But Time Reversal does not give you CA, it gives both players new full 7 and your opponent will be the first who gets to untap and play with it. Just compare Time Reversal to Tidings. No one would play Tidings in Legacy but still it is far better than Time Reversal. 4 for you abd 0 for opponent vs. 7 for both, Tidings clearly wins.

You always mention Timetwister, but Vintage Control decks don't even think about touching that card for exactly the same reasons.

[Grollub]

I'll have to admit I'm a little confused at just what you're trying to accomplish with Time Reversal, but something to consider would be cutting them all for Burning Wish and making a wishboard with a single one in it, since Reversal removes itself each cast you can always wish for it.

Time Reversal plus a heavy acceleration suite is interesting, as it breaks the symetry. Currently Zoo's creature pressure and most importantly burn seems like it'd destroy the deck.

Lastly, how often are the factories relevant? For some reason they look kind of off-place to me.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

i appreciate your encouragement, but i'd also appreciate reading/testing before commenting, How you can say that its cmc is a problem in a deck fulfilled with mox diamonds, ancient tomb and grim monoliths+keys???

also: yeah mr. Obvious, timetwister is 10 times better, also is only playable in a thing called Vintage. As is Time spiral.

i mean, build the damn thing, at least read cards, THEN say it sucks.

ps: storm seeker as a finisher? for the lolz?

You're giving this abomination more credit than it will ever be due. Decent idea, just use cheaper cards. Your curve (according to the statistics you provided) is absolutely nauseating. Not to mention that I just used that site to generate 7 random hands. 7 of them had FoW. 7 of them also had problems with double blue, and 7 of them also only ever had one card to pitch to FoW, emptying the hand of business.

This deck defeats itself, and if you win any games whatsoever, it's because you run Force. Period.

[kiblast]

could someone else throw a list of what they would run?

i think the cab jace shell should stay.
maybe exploration? so we could ramp up, emptying our hand?
i also have to quote who suggested trinket mage, so i can fetch tormod's crypt and then resolve the reversal.
what do you think?