Pump Infect [SOM spoilage]

[rufus]

The infect mechanic in Scars of Mirrodin can make poison counters into a potentially legitimate threat. This is a simplistic attempt to abuse it by hitting the opponent for 10 poison counters with a pumped infector. The lowest-cc method is to use Invigorate+Berserk. We're still waiting on the list of infect critters to be filled out.

Infect Critters:

Ironclaw Myr
Plague Stinger
Ichor Rats

Other critters:

Needle Specter

Pump Cards:

Might of Old Krosa
Berserk
Invigorate
Groundswell

Discard:
Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize
Mana:
Dark Ritual
Bayou
Overgrown Tomb
Fetchlands
Forest
Swamp

Since the deck is about 1/4 pump spells, and 1/4 creatures, it should have the material necessary for a t3 poison finish most of the time. It can plausibly punch through with damage as well, although that's a little slower. The discard is primarily there to protect against removal.

I should look at Rouse,Snuff Out, Unmask, Bounty of the Hunt, Xantid Swarm and any other infect cards that come out...

Ideally, for this deck, we'd see 2 more infecters with cc 2 or less in black, artifact, or green.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Vines of Vastwood seems really good in a deck that hates targeted removal

[kicks_422]

Any Infect creature + Invigorate + Berserk is a one-hit kill. You might want to have Berserk in there somewhere.

[Captain Hammer]

:eek:
Invigorate is soooo good with Poison.

I'm really loving this mechanic. I think it could do for black/sui black what wild nacatl did for zoo.

[xTrainx]

Try...

4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
3 Vines of the Vastwood
4 Groundswell

4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Plague Stinger
4 Ichor Rats

4 Thoughtsieze
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

4 Bayou
8 Fetchlands
6 other lands

[zabuza]

I think this mechanic is a house too, and of course I was thinking on a deck like this one. I also include kavu predator wich is a house with invigorate and berserk (althougt it hasn´t infect) but it´s soo good.

Vines of the vastwood is needed here and something like kiln fiend (which makes the manabase worse than now) and viashino Slaughtermaster is another option.

Also a pendelhaven (or some of them) could be useful here to pump ichorclaw and stinger.

[Captain Hammer]

Not that you need another pump spell, but if you did, Might of Old Krosa is a great option.

OP, if you're on a budget and thus Berserk isn't an option, I would play Might of Old Krosa in it's place.

Kavu Predator is only worth playing if the deck were also playing StP and if it wasn't centered around Poison.

Frankly, if you want another creature, I would either wait for more of Shards to be spoiled, or I would play Needle Specter. That card plus any removal spell = your opponent discarding the entirity of their hand. And it can be ritualed out turn one. Your opponent has one of two choices, use up their only removal spell to take out Needle Specter and thus let your poison creatures resolve, or dump their whole hand next turn, and thus not have removal to stop your poison creatures anyways.

[zabuza]

Opponent can top deck the removal and specter is slow if not ritualed.

On the other side you don´t need STP to play kavu, invigorate is enough to pump the predator, but anyways if you don´t want to......

Another idea would be using double cleave wich make as a cheap berserk because doublestriking makes putting the double number of counters but again you need red to play with (or white and include STP ;) ).

The thing is that there are several creatures that can kill the opponent in a single attack. They are:

Viashino Slaughtermaster
Warren Instigator
Kiln Fiend
Boros Swiftblade
Ichorclaw Myr
Plague Stinger
Ichor Rats

Any of these ones + any pumper + berserk (or double cleave) = GG so i think the deck could be centered on them. The problem is that berserk and pumpers are green so you must create a RGB deck.

Any ideas???

If wizards print another infect dude with an acceptable CC the deck could be focused in the infect mechanic but now you must complete it.

[Captain Hammer]

Don't play Cabal Therapy. Supplement Thoughtseize with either Duress or Inquisition.

You want to reliably get either your opponents countermagic or removal on turn one. Duress and inquisition do so more reliably. Duress gets FoW too which is a big plus.

Don't play Kavu Predator/Swiftblade. You want to focus on poison, playing non poison creatures is a bad idea. Specter is an exception because its so insanely devastating with a pump spell.

Every creature you play can be killed, so the fact that specter can be killed is not a viable argument against it. It protects your other creatures either by causing them to dump their hand or by making the use their removal on it rather than one of your poison guys.

Also, wasn't there a green poison creature in future sight?

Virulent Sliver

Only 1cc. Seems perfect for the deck.

As for the board, against other creature decks, you can side in Jitte and removal.

[Gocho]

Creatures with Poison doesn't add more poison counters with pump spells. Only Creatures with Infect.

But you can make a deck with only 12 creatures with infect you need a little more to make it viable (or add Tutors)

[Tacosnape]

We'll have to wait and see, but I get the feeling there will be more Infect creatures to come. Pray for a 1-drop 1/1 Infect guy.

Consider Might of Oaks over Berserk in this deck. It's a solo-kill with Ichorclaw Rats and less reliant on you having a second pump spell to be decent.

[Infinitium]

Virulent Slivers stack however. Also, there's no contest that you want 1-drops in an aggressive deck. Just suck it up and run them, even if they actually print that mandatory 1/1 for 1 Infect creature.

[MPL]

Wild Might does have a major downside, but Turn 1 Land + Lotus Petal or Dark Ritual > Infest Dude, Turn 2 Invigorate + Wild Might is a turn 2 kill. With Berserk and Wild Might, one could run 8 cards that make a turn 1 creature lethal. Just sayin. Especially as both spoiled creatures have evasion of some kind.

[ScatmanX]

Keep in mind that this deck can also use cards like Thrummingbird, once Proliferate also work with Poison Counters...

[Barook]

Keep in mind that this deck can also use cards like Thrummingbird, once Proliferate also work with Poison Counters...
Why would you add an extra color for a creature that can't even apply poison counters on its own?

Virulent Sliver seems so-so. It's great in multiples, but doesn't have synergy with the pump theme.

And what about Rancor? Sure, it's not instant, but it also helps to push your damage beyond jump blockers and applies constant pressure if you can't find enough pump to end it quickly.

What kind of removal should be considered? Snuff Out for tempo reasons? Maelstrom Pulse is also interesting because you don't run the same permanents as other decks, e.g. Goyf, but the CC of 3 might be prohibitive.

[Tacosnape]

Keep in mind that this deck attacks a different resource than most. Instead of 20 life, you're going for 10 poison counters. So Virulent Sliver's essentially a 2-power 1-drop if he hits the opponent. His power also jumps by 2 for every other one in play. Pump spells don't help your cause. That's average. Not amazing, but not bad. There may not be anything better.

Infect creatures, however, for the intents and purposes of hitting the opponent, pretty much have Double Strike in that everything you pump them for is going to kill the opponent twice as fast is it would if you were pumping a normal everyday creature.

Extreme viability for the deck's going to require another couple good Infect guys.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Hah, this deck is just sweet so far, gj Rufus, and they haven't even released most of the cards too. Wizards did a pretty awesome job with this mechanic, brining poison back... did not see that coming.

I'm almost thinking Dark Confidant, as sorta a "must answer" target, but in a different way. Thoughts?

Otherwise, if it's decided the deck's pretty much a three-turn sorta deck, I'd go Viurelent Sliver as a one-drop "constant reliable" hitter that they'd have to decided if it should slip by or to kill it. I agree with Tacosnape, in a way it works similar to a 1cc fpr 2/1.
Remember though, the majority of these are 1/1's, so in terms of damage: 1 + 4 + 4 = 9 poison; so maybe Virulent can fill some of the gap.

[Captain Hammer]

I like the wild might and berserk approach more than the virulent Sliver approach.

[bruizar]

Virulent Sliver opens options for manlands with Mutavault. It would be a mistake not to play with Virulent Sliver because you want to have one drops and they are good in multiples. There will be enough infect to support invigorate and berserk, but I doubt they will be only 1 mana.


Look at this

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110189&d=1283639199 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110232&d=1283745840 http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAG_SOM/IchorclawMyr.jpg
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110222&d=1283745742

All the infect cards carry the Phyrexia watermark, EVEN the artifacts with Infect. It was spoiled that 20% of Scars of Mirrodin is going to be Phyrexia-aligned. Not all Phyrexia cards have infect. Thrummingbird for example, also carries the Phyrexia mark
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110198&d=1283639318

Judging from the fact that it was confirmed that poison would be a valid strategy in Scars, I´d guess that around 30% of the Phyrexia card pool would have the infect mechanic. That would mean that there will be approximately 15 cards with Infect.

I think its a bit early to make a deck out of this, but Invigorate certainly is the strongest pump spell ever. Even if your opponent decides to block your dude and lives, you´ll be shrinking goyfs left and right.

Just want to add that even without the Infect mechanic, Virulent slivers can quickly finish your opponent. Look at the following Scenario:
Attack with Mutavault + Virulent sliver = 4 poison,
Attack with Mutavault + 2x Sliver = 6 poison


1 Mutavault + 1 Virulent Sliver = 5 turn clock (2 poison per turn)
2 Virulent Slivers = 3 turn clock (4 poison per turn)
2 Mutavaults + 1 Virulent sliver = 4 turn clock (3 poison per turn)
1 Mutavault + 2 Virulent sliver = 2 turn clock (6 poison per turn)

Perhaps Mutavault could be added as a 2 off to support Virulent sliver.

Another scenario could be
Turn 1: Forest, Virulent Sliver
Turn 2: Mutavault, Plague Stinger. attack + 1 poison
Turn 3: you now have a couple of options.

You can play an additional Virulent Sliver, which means Virulent+ Mutavault will do 4 poison. +1 for Plague Stinger is 5, winning the next turn.
You can play Invigorate on Plague Stinger for 5 poison, + 2 for Virulent and Mutavault for a total of +7 poison = 8 poison, winning the next turn
You can play any combination of these spells to win this turn:
1) Invigorate and Berserk = +8 poison
2) Invigorate and Bounty of the Hunt = +7 poison
3) Invigorate and Might of Old Krosa = +8 poison
4) Might of Old Krosa and Berserk = +9 poison
5) Might of Old Krosa and Bounty of the Hunt = +7 poison
6) Bounty of the Hunt and Berserk = +6 poison (+3 from Virulent, Mutavault and Stinger, +1 from last turn)

[Mystical_Jackass]

2 Swarmyard
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mutauvult

?

[kinda]

Looks fun but it could use some reach...anything better than distortion strike? To reiterate what someone else said snuff out looks pretty important for a similar reason.

Edit: I tested this list out and felt that it really needed 4 more guys be anywhere near consistent.

// Lands
2 [R] Bayou
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [U] Tropical Island
2 [U] Underground Sea

// Creatures (poison guy subs)
4 [M10] Relentless Rats
4 [MR] Silver Myr
4 [AL] Swamp Mosquito (1)

// Spells
4 [ROE] Distortion Strike
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
4 [DDE] Dark Ritual
4 [V09] Berserk
4 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [DDD] Snuff Out
4 [DDD] Invigorate

[Mystical_Jackass]

What about the Lands that Bruizar and I mentioned? Worth trying those, and with Virulent? Snuff Out is a good idea btw, but I'm not sure about Daze

[Gocho]

I like Swarmyard, but I don't know why nobody add Elvish Spirit Guide. Seems better than Lotus Petal, because you don't need to cast it before use it and can combat T2 Daze and protect your creatures with unexpected Vines. Almost all your deck is Green so you don't need B from Lotus petal.

Anyway I'm going to wait for the complete SOM Spoiler to begin this deck. You don't know which Infect creatures you can use yet.

[bruizar]

Damn, I wanted to suggest an Elephant Graveyard for us pimps instead, until I found out that those infect critters are insects and rats too! Man.. You can chump block all day long and infect the hell out of your opponents creatures. You'll win every creature battle. When Scars hits, I have to play this contraption from hell.

I totally support Swarmyard, Mutavault.

[rufus]

The most immediately obvious choices for extra creatures are Needle Specter which I had in the OP, and Cold-Eyed Selkie. There's also a couple of critters in black and green that are pretty solid on their own.

[xTrainx]

Adding in Virulent Sliver gives you a solid turn one play; and if he connects even once, it opens up the field for Double Invigorate to get a kill as well.

[zabuza]

I´ve thought on Cold-Eyed Selkie because has a nice effect with pump. The same as specter.

Virulent sliver is nice, if only there were another infect dude!!!!

[Captain Hammer]

I am so certain that there will be atleast one other Infect creature in Scars, and that this deck will be a viable contender in the format, that I went ahead and plocked down a $100 to buy 4 Berserk.

Let's hope that investment pans out.

[zabuza]

I´ve tested a few in mws proxing the SOM cards and I´ve found that the best way is playing spells like might of old krosa, and such instead of oaks because you want to play less lands and paying 4 for a pumper is not the way to go. Instead you can play berserk, invigorate,vines, groundswell and might in order to pump your dudes.

If only we can search creatures it could be nice (i.e. survival) because slivers on multiples are great but anyways it can be a nice option.

Berserk is here to a second turn win with (1st mana chrome mox stinger, second pumper berserk ;) ) but anyways two pumpers can deal similar poisons.

So the deck could be something like:
// Lands
4 [R] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [TSP] Pendelhaven
2 [U] Forest
2 [U] Swamp


// Creatures (poison guy subs)
4 Poisonous Sliver
4 Ichor rats
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Stinger Horror

// Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Groundswell
4 Vines of the vastwood

And Any more Infect dudes Wizards can print.
More??

[Hunding Gjornersen]

On Virulent Sliver: I can't even begin to describe how much I love this card, but it doesn't seem right here. Suppose that this deck is roughly analogous to Berserk Stompy. Then a single Virulent Sliver effectively reads:

Virulent Sliver
G
Creature- Sliver
Virulent Sliver cannot be the target of spells you control.
2/1

Calling it a 2/1 is being overly generous, I think. It only has two power when unblocked, and will never shrink a Goyf. Shenanigans with Mutavault are not a selling point to me. Since when does a deck aiming to kill on turn 3 run man-lands?

I don't think we'll see a 1cc creature with infect, but there will probably be at least 1 or 2 bomb poison-mythic-rares in this block.

[Captain Hammer]

IMHO, this deck will replace Eva Green, as the de facto Sui Black deck of Legacy.

I think a direction that we should explore but no one seems to be so far, is to forego a little bit of speed for consistency and resilency.

We are devoting 20 Slots to pump spells. If we were to play 16 permanent pump effects (Rancor, Unholy Strength, the Unholy Strength rip off enchantment in Eventide, and possibly Unstable Mutation if we're willing to splash blue), along side both Thoughtseize and Duress and possibly even Snuff Out, the deck would be resilient and flexible at the same time, not being so all in.

I would either play...



// Lands
4 [R] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [TSP] Pendelhaven
1 [U] Forest
2 [U] Swamp

// Creatures
4 Ichor Rats
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Stinger Horror
4 Another Infect Creature

// Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Snuff Out
4 Rancor
4 Unholy Strength
2 Eventide's Unholy Strength ripoff
4 Invigorate


or



// Lands
4 [R] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [TSP] Pendelhaven
1 [U] Forest
2 [U] Swamp

// Creatures
4 Ichor Rats
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Stinger Horror
4 Another Infect Creature

// Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Berserk
3 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Groundswell
4 Vines of the Vastwood


I like Dark Ritual over Chrome Mox.

The reason for Dark Ritual is simple. Infect is a black mechanic. So whatever other Infect creatures they print will also be black or an artifact.

Dark Ritual lets you play any of your creatures on turn one, so that you can pump them and win on turn 2. And it doensn't even make you imprint another card ala Chrome Mox.

There's few creatures that Chrome Mox can cast turn one, and the Mox also often forces you to imprint a pump spell that you could instead be using to deal with chump blockers against aggro decks.

[Hawdes]

IMHO, this deck will replace Eva Green, as the de facto Sui Black deck of Legacy.

I think a direction that we should explore but no one seems to be so far, is to forego a little bit of speed for consistency and resilency.

We are devoting 20 Slots to pump spells. If we were to play 16 permanent pump effects (Rancor, Unholy Strength, the Unholy Strength rip off enchantment in Eventide, and possibly Unstable Mutation if we're willing to splash blue), along side both Thoughtseize and Duress and possibly even Snuff Out, the deck would be resilient and flexible at the same time, not being so all in.

I would either play...



or



I like Dark Ritual over Chrome Mox.

The reason for Dark Ritual is simple. Infect is a black mechanic. So whatever other Infect creatures they print will also be black or an artifact.

Dark Ritual lets you play any of your creatures on turn one, so that you can pump them and win on turn 2. And it doensn't even make you imprint another card ala Chrome Mox.

There's few creatures that Chrome Mox can cast turn one, and the Mox also often forces you to imprint a pump spell that you could instead be using to deal with chump blockers against aggro decks.

This deck smells like card-disadvantage miles away... Since when do you want to play subpar enchant creature spells like Unholy Strength...
The only enchant creature spells that've seen competetive play that I can recall are Rancor and Armadillo Cloak. I'd hate to be 2 for 1:ed everytime my opp plays a removal spell.

[Kove]

IMHO, this deck will replace Eva Green, as the de facto Sui Black deck of Legacy.

I don't agree with this statement as I think the two decks cannot really be compared. Eva Green is a tempo oriented disruption deck filled with discard, land destruction, creature removal and efficient threats. Mess up their hand and manabase and then drop a beater who can crush face before he/she has a chance to stabalize.

This/your deck is basically a combo deck relying on the attack phase. It only runs a few discard spells to help it punch through the important cards and wins through the combined strength of bad (on their own) critters backed up by pump spells.

Imho the only things the decks have in common are the colours, 4 Dark Ritual and 4 Thoughtseize. x-D

With that said I do like the deck idea as I too have a weakness for "combo-attack" decks like Berserk Stompy and The Cure. But having played a lot of Red Death (Eva Green with burn instead of Tarmogoyfs. Same deck really) and The Cure I definately can see the difference between the two. ;-)

[rufus]

It occured to me that another way to go would be RB, which opens up the possibility of playing double strikers like Viashino Slaughtermaster or Warren Instigator, but severly alters the pump list - basically restricting the deck to +3/ and +2/ cards like Brute Force,Reckless Charge, Vampire's Bite and Rouse.

[zabuza]

I told it before but captain hammer told that it doesn´t worthwhile (which I´m not aggree with). I think is a good Idea because pumpers then serves two purposes and you have lot of onew shot creature. viashino + might + berserk = plague stinger + might + berserk = GG. The only problem is that you´ll have a three colour manabase but I´m going to test it because now there are few critters with infect and you need to complete the creature´s base with any efficient beaters.

Anyways if you want the G_B version you must wait till another good infect dude will be released.

Any more ideas??

[Captain Hammer]

Hawdes,

No, what's begging to be 2 for 1ed are the lists that play entirely instants and very little discard.

The whole point of playing pump spells like Rancor and Unholy Strength is that you can make room to play more disruption. By playing 4 Thoughtseize + 4 Duress, you make it far less likely that you get 2 for 1ed than if you play only 4 Thoughtseize.

I'm not saying that's the correct approach, just that you are making an error in thinking that playing fewer discard spells and pump like Might of Old Krosa and Groundswell over Rancor and Unholy Strength makes you less likely to be 2 for 1ed.



And the reason why I think it's a bad idea to mix Infect creatures with double strikers is that each attacks a different resource.

Yes, ideally, you can play just one creature and pump it sufficently to win you the game. But that's not always going to be the case. Decks play countermagic, discard and removal for a reason.

When you can't combo off with just one creature, it's infinately better to have two creatures that both poison than it is to have one creature that poisons while the other one attacks their life total.

[Ben]

I like Captain Hammer's build with Snuff Out and discard. The only creature that might not encounter any chump block is the Stinger Horror, all the other infect guys can be blocked easily with all the zoo/goblin/merfolk decks around. The idea of adding some removal is definitly a good idea.
However I would add some berserk into that list just because Invigorate + Berserk is such a sweet deal.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Lands (17)
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
2 Pendelhaven
2 Swarmyard
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creatures (19)
4 Llanowar Augur
4 Dark Confidant
-----------------
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Stinger Horror
3 Ichor Rats

Spells (24)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
----------------
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
2 Groundswell


This is the deck version I came up with. Most seem pretty familiar, but I included cards like Dark Confidant & Swarmyard for more mid-game support, because... well, as well all know sometimes shi* happens and you need to stall to gain the advantage back.

Swarmyard + Rat/Insect = infinite blockers for as long as you have one out. I really think it would be a good addition. In combination with Pendlehaven your opponent would fear attacking with anything. Urborg is basically for balance; the deck runs on such a low curve, and with having Ritual I don't really fear Wasteland as much as I usually would.
I also decided Snuff Out was not worth the fit, because trample will be your creature removal if anything gets in the way. You Duress to shut down their removal/counter, then any creature caught trying to stop you from winning's gonna get run over.

Llanowar Augur was a great addition. I'm thinking he carries a little more for his buck as the 1cc drop, working as a wall against lackeys and critters and a +3/+3 trample ability on top of that for finishing. Seems pretty good. Again, still early so much of this could change at any time...

[perm]

2 or 3 distortion stike might be completely worth it.

[zabuza]

22 Infect cards on the Orb so I´m really thinking this deck could be improved a lot ;).

[Alexeezay]

I bet a black or B/G Staxx variant with infect could be strong, the new mythic dragon is just too cool :D
chalice,trinisphere,ancient tomb,city of traitors,mox,good creatures,other denial/disruption stuff, maybe dark rituals, and so on ;)

[zabuza]

I´m playing the deck with only infect dudes (+ virulent) and pumpers and it´s good. I think with the next infect dudes this deck can be very competitive. I´m playing 1 volrath´s stronghold, 1 urborg, tomb..., 1 pendelhaven and one swarmyard in the deck and they seem very useful but sometimes you need lot of green.....

The new infect artifact doesn´t seem very useful. I´ll hope next infect cards will be better. More ideas???

[rufus]

I´m playing the deck with only infect dudes (+ virulent) and pumpers and it´s good. I think with the next infect dudes this deck can be very competitive. I´m playing 1 volrath´s stronghold, 1 urborg, tomb..., 1 pendelhaven and one swarmyard in the deck and they seem very useful but sometimes you need lot of green.....

The new infect artifact doesn´t seem very useful. I´ll hope next infect cards will be better. More ideas???


Xantid Swarm
Dark Confidant
Needle Specter
Cold-Eyed Selkie

all have potential to fit.

The deck definitely wants discard or something else to protect itself.

Duress
Thoughtseize
Unmask


And grip is, of course, a must in the sideboard.

I think we're mostly waiting on more infect cards.

[Volrath]

Geth's Throne is really cool.

Throne of Geth - (U) 2

Tap, Sacrifice an artifact: Proliferate

This could up the poison count really fast.

[zabuza]

I´m testing a version now similar to:

// Lands
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
8 Swamps
2 Volrath´s Stronghold



4 Dark Confidant Draw
4 Ichorclaw Myr Poison
4 plague Stinger Evasive Poison
4 Needle Specter Discard
4 Ichor Rats Posion.

4 Vampire´s Bite (lifelink sometimes is useful and +3 is good enough at instant speed to kill)
4 Duress (Don´t know which is the right number)
4 Dark Ritual (Obv)
4 Berserk (Obv)
4 Invigorate (Obv)
2 Unspeakable symbol (a house here and combined with bite ;) )
4 Virulent Swipe (+4 in two turns with deadtouch for killing bid dudes)
2 Inquisition Of Kozilek (perhaops on side or 2 kozilek and 2 duress main still thinking)
(still more cards than needed but I dopn´t know what to cut here)

With this configuration you change the green manabase to black manabase which make the deck stronger. Again you have lot of pump to kill there.

You even can play Rouse (for free pumping too ;) ) and so.

If wizards prints another infect dude with CC <3 it would replace rats because they have not evasion. and are very expensive to play with.

Any More ideas??

[Ben]

Geth's Throne is really cool.

Throne of Geth - (U) 2

Tap, Sacrifice an artifact: Proliferate

This could up the poison count really fast.


The thing is there arn't a lot of rooms in this deck for artifacts. I suppose you could run 8 artifact lands (both black and green) along with Throne itself which makes up to12 artifacts. I don't know how good it would be though.

I still think pump spells or +X auras are more realistic to run than this

Edit: Sorry forgot about the Myrs but you might not want to sac them for just 1 poison counter

[Clark Kant]

Xantid Swarm
Dark Confidant
Needle Specter
Cold-Eyed Selkie

all have potential to fit.

The deck definitely wants discard or something else to protect itself.

Duress
Thoughtseize
Unmask


And grip is, of course, a must in the sideboard.

I think we're mostly waiting on more infect cards.


I would add Mother of Runes to that list.

Mother of Runes both protects your creatures from removal post pump (same as Xantid Swarm) AND ALSO makes them UNBLOCKABLE which is really useful.

[rufus]

I would add Mother of Runes to that list.

She's good, but I doubt she's good enough to justify running white by herself.

[zabuza]

I don´t think so splashing to white only for MOR would be good. I´ve returned to my initial list (+ confidants) and I think it´s good enough. I´ve also added rancor because Myr with rancor is funny (juggy with venom ;)). I´ve also added any nice cards I think could improve matches.

Sideboarding I would include discard spells and thinking on stonewood invocation (it´s very expensive but +5 and shroud sounds pretty sweet).

I´m waiting for more infect dudes but wit the current configuration the deck is very fast (even turn two kills).

More ideas??

[Benjammn]

This deck idea is hilarious. T2/3 wins were abundant, considering Invigorate -> Berserk kills with any infect creature. The list I'm testing is this:
// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Forest
3 [UNH] Swamp
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [TSP] Swarmyard
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [SOM] Ichorclaw Myr
4 [SOM] Plague Stinger
4 [SOM] Ichor Rats
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa
3 [ZEN] Vines of Vastwood
4 [B] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate

Very silly indeed.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I think you might want Dark Ritual, considering 85% the spells are black, free, or colorless. You could keep the spirit guide for fixing, but yeah... I think Lotus should stay out, you don't need Goyf bigger, also.

Your list looks kinda close to mine, you should try Pendelhaven too. It just makes too much sense in this deck, it's like a win-win card here.

[zabuza]

My decklist is close similar to yours but I think you need more Green because all your pum spells need Green (vines double green in fact). and altough your dudes are all black they are easily playable (except rats) with a single bayou.

I´ve also included one volrath´s stronghold to have a way of recursion.

TGZ is good but you have lot of lifeloss with confidants, 9 fetches and TGZ.

Anyways I like your list a lot (is close similar to mine ;) )

[nedleeds]

Unearth seems pretty decent in here as 4 more poison critters or a cycle.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Yeah, thanks man. I see your point with green. I guess I'll have to do some testing... see how it plays out.

I really think Dark Ritual should be in though, bro. I'm just thinking... with the ability to make those turn1 powerplays with Ritual->:b::b::b:, Duress, Plague Stinger/Myr/Confidant; It just fits in way too well with the Sui Black mentality of the deck ("win before I lose" aye).

Volrath's Stronghold is descent, but I'm thinking... maybe a little slow for a low-Land-weenie deck vs Swarmyard, which does a lot of the same thing for free? Thoughts?

[zabuza]

I played before with ritual but after testing it proved to be worst than ESG because times when you need a single G are more frecuent than times when you need BBB. Think that with ESG you can cast any of your creatures except rats on first turn but with Rit you can´t play any pump spell over there.

Stronhold is good, but only one copy. Anyways I´m going to include a single swarmyard . It sounds nice, at least, to be tested.

Now I´m expecting for more infect dudes to be spoiled. ;)
If anyone has a another idea, please post it ;)

[Captain Hammer]

Berserk + ANY pump spell is an instant kill. It's not just Invigorate... Groundswell, Might of Old Krosa and Vines of Vastwood all give +4/+4.

Even without Berserk, any two pump spells + Rats kill in one turn. Or two pump spells can kill over two attacks without Berserk's help.

In addition, the pump acts as pseudo removal even against big dudes thanks to the wither type effect (though doing this slows down the deck a lot so playing Snuff Out maindeck would be a huge help against potential blockers).

Given this, the focus of the remaining slots should be to make sure your creatures don't get killed, countered or bounced in response to your removal through the use of Thoughtseize, Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek, and maybe devoting a few slots to Snuff Out.

I would devote 6 card slots maximum to acceleration, and it really seems like atleast 4 of those should be Dark Ritual, since Dark Ritual is the one card that can be used to cast any of your creatures on turn one, and often also gives you mana left over to Thoughtseize turn one and pull off a turn two win without fear of removal.

[zabuza]

I´ve given my reasonings for playing ESG against DR. If you want, play it, but in my testings ESG were far superior than DR (it can even attack when needed).

In other order of things, using lot of discard in this deck is not the way to go because think on that. You are not a control deck, this deck is close similar to berserk stompy. Including lot of such spells you are making the deck slower and slower and I think this is not an agro control deck, you only need one of your dudes connect to kill the opponent. With Swarmyar and stronhold they can survive to beat at least one time.

I think the goal of this deck is killing as fast as posssible, because if you get at mid-late game you probably will be destroyed.

[Captain Hammer]

I´ve given my reasonings for playing ESG against DR. If you want, play it, but in my testings ESG were far superior than DR (it can even attack when needed).

In other order of things, using lot of discard in this deck is not the way to go because think on that. You are not a control deck, this deck is close similar to berserk stompy. Including lot of such spells you are making the deck slower and slower and I think this is not an agro control deck, you only need one of your dudes connect to kill the opponent. With Swarmyar and stronhold they can survive to beat at least one time.

I think the goal of this deck is killing as fast as posssible, because if you get at mid-late game you probably will be destroyed.

I don't follow your reasoning. Playing Thoughtseize/Duress doesn't make you a control deck.

In fact, Thoughtseize/Duress is the best way to ensure that you won't be delayed till the mid game.

Pretty much every single deck in the format plays either removal, countermagic, or bounce (even combo plays Chain of Vapor).

With Duress/Thoughtseize in the deck you can...

Turn 1 - Land, Ritual, Thoughtseize (knocking out their countermagic/removal spell), Plague Stinger
Turn 2 - Land, any of your pump spells + Berserk = win.


Without Duress/Thoughtseize, this is how the game will VERY FREQUENTLY play out...

Turn 1 - Land, ESG, Plague Stinger = FoW in respone. Assuming they don't have FoW in hand, let's move on to turn 2.
Turn 2 - Land, any of your pump spells + Berserk = StP or Edict, or hell, even Chain of Vapor in response
Turn 3 - Volrath's Stronghold, pay two mana to put creature back on top of your library (assuming the creature was Edicted or FoWed turn one rather than StPed)
Turn 4 - Draw and Cast creature
Turn 5 - Pray that you already have a pump spell in hand and top decked another Berserk, and try for a win. But odds are, you either don't top deck the cards, or it's too late and you're already dead. Or will happen even more frequently, your opponent just spent the last five turns Brainstorming and Pondering their way into a fistful of removal spells/counters and you have zero shot at resolving anything relevent.

Why would attacking with ESG ever matter. All your other creatures are poison, so ESG would have to do 20 damage entirely on it's own to be relevent. Do you really anticipate that happening, that you will survive long enough for a 2/2 to go the distance by itself?

[zabuza]

Well, The reasoning is the next.

You have double pump in your hand and a swamp (i.e) and a bayou. You draw Dark ritual, ohhhhh wonderfull. You can´t play the pump spell giving the opponent one more turn.

The deck plays confidant, which must be answered because if it isn´t, you are going to draw A LOT (another dude or a pump spell,..).

First turn duress--> Woooo!!!!!!! My oponent has fow (daze-spell snare-.......) and/or swords, path,...........even lightning. Wonderful I´ve removed one control spell (about creatures which are the most common removal spells peeople plays) and lost tempo in the process while only removing ONE hate card for the other deck.

Berserk stompy doesn´t play duress and win lot of games because is fast. The same can be said to other decks in the format. Anyways if you want playing discard spells it´s ok, but I´m only suggesting that 6 or more spells of this kind are too much for me.

You are supposing opponent has only ONE way of getting rid of your creatures (which almost never happens) and I´m trying to beat him before he can stand on the game. These are two different points of focusing the deck.

Beside of that I´m agree with you on playing those cards at least on side because combo decks are there and against those decks discard is a very powerful tool.

Of course ESG is not going to kill the opponent but now we only have 12 infect dudes so having another way of winning the game (beating with dudes, confidants and ESG9 sounds acceptable.

What do you think?? Do you understand me???

[Captain Hammer]

I understand you perfectly. I still don't follow your logic though.

You're saying discard doesn't help because your opponent might have multiple removal/counterspells.

Then again, he might not, he often won't, as most deck only play 4 removal spells. But even if he does, aren't you still better off getting rid of one of the removal spells, and knowing exactly what the rest of his opening hand looks like.

Aren't you better off being prepared for that Daze you know your opponent still has?

Wouldn't you be better off if you knew that your first creature will get removed, and to not to overextend with it, by both pumping and Berserking it, rather than just pumping it once, and forcing them to use up their remaining removal on it.

Losing just your first creature to removal is vastly preferable to losing both your first and your second creature and probably losing berserk as well, to removal.

Berserk Stompy plays a lot more creatures that all attack the same resource (life total), so it's less vulnerable to it's creatures getting killed. It also often plays Fling, which helps against removal quite a bit. Plus, Berserk Stompy isn't quite as reliant on pump as this deck is. And lastly, Berserk Stompy isn't super competitive as a deck either. So I don't think the two decks are comparable.

Between fetchlands, forests and bayous, the odds of being stuck with a swamp rather than a bayou or forest are low. I only plan to play a single basic swamp in the deck, so I'm not too worried about this. But I do see where you're coming from, and yeah, that is the one aspect where ESG works better. I just think Dark Ritual overall does more for the deck especially if you're playing discard (which imo you absolutely should be).

[zabuza]

But you are not going to play berserk whenever you can . You must know when is the time for berserk. I´m not going to do it because you have a 3x1 and it´s not good at all.

I´m not saying dicard is bad, I´m saying that dedicating 6 or more slots to discard spell is not good. This deck is an agresive deck. If you concede tempo to the oponnent you are going to die. If you duress the oponent he can still play brainstorm (to save his removal) or even ponder to search another. you must begin an attrtion war thinking that any poison counter you put is a new step for the win.

is good knowing what the opponent has on his hand but believe me, giving tempo is not a good idea. This deck plays few lands and creatures like needle specter are very difficult to play without ritual, but ritual only is good for playing them. If you do dar rit--> needle and opponent plays lightning is a 2x1 against you (yes the same than ESG diude) but ESG can be used tio save your creature with a pump spell while black can´t.

Of course is better knowing what the opponent has on his hand but You can hold your berserk till you have vines or even till you have any other pumping spell. THe important thing here is knowing how to play.

Anyways, I´ve not said that discard is bad (see I´m agrre with you on playing it on side at least) I´m only telling that lot of discard means less menaces and threats and this is a bad choice.

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110737&d=1284696091

Thoughts? The CC of 4 is obviously quite high, but maybe it could be included as a 2-of? It plays out kinda nicely with Stronghold if the initial onslaught with pump spells fails. Permanent pump for your other creatures is also kinda nice.

[Captain Hammer]

In a noninfect aggro deck, would you play a creature that read...

3U

Other creatures you control get +2/+2

Whenever you cast a creature, target player takes 2 damage

6/2


Not to mention the synergy with your pump spells.

Yeah, I think it's worth four mana. And imo, it's yet another reason to play Dark Ritual over ESG.

[Captain_Morgan]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110737&d=1284696091

Thoughts? The CC of 4 is obviously quite high, but maybe it could be included as a 2-of? It plays out kinda nicely with Stronghold if the initial onslaught with pump spells fails. Permanent pump for your other creatures is also kinda nice.

Looks and acts like Carrie (Sarah Jessica Parker) from Sex and the City:

http://celebrityfashion.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/carrie-blue-boa.jpg

I like the card, but I want to see more Infect critters to see what kind of curve it'll pull off. I've liked some of the possible tricks that can be done with it, but in this shell some of the abilities like bouncing the rat for 2 counters. It also lacks evasion and dies to bolt. It does work well though with the flier later game.

The bug is testing out nicely, rats I just I want something to do with its incoming play ability but don't know what yet if I can. Guess it'll take the rest of the two sets to give an option for infect.

Overall, I like the deck and some of the innuendos I can pull off with "pump" and "infect" so Ill probably dub my infect deck "Bankai (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bankai)."

[Broham]

Running both Dark Ritual and Elvish Spirit Guide looks good to me. But maybe my Timmy's thirst for fast mana is never sated. I like keeping the Dark Rituals because 3cc and it makes Unmask better.

Gonna experiment with Ebon Stronghold but that card can really bite you in the ass. Just have to wait and see if I like crazy go nuts Turn 1s more than consistent Turn 2s. What I do like the looks of so far is that the Fallen Empires double mana lands let you squeeze in the colorless producing lands easier. I dunno, the land setup looks like it could go a dozen different directions to me right now.

[rufus]

I like keeping the Dark Rituals because 3cc and it makes Unmask better.

Without recursion (like Ill-gotten Gains) it seems like using the alternative cost is more efficient, even with Dark Ritual

[Barook]

What about Noble Hierarch as accel? Sure, it's slower than the other options and only provides :g: as on-color mana, but the double function as pump doesn't seem too bad. Plus, it doesn't cause card disadvantage.

Thoughts?

[Broham]

Without recursion (like Ill-gotten Gains) it seems like using the alternative cost is more efficient, even with Dark Ritual

I was referring to the alternative cost. The Dark Rituals would be fodder for the alternative cost. Sorry I was falling asleep when I posted.

[Captain Hammer]

I really want to play...

Distortion Strike
Unstable Mutation
Rancor

Force of Will
Daze
Brainstorm

in this deck.

Alongside the poison creatures, dark rituals, and standard pump spells (Invigorate, Groundswell etc).

Unblockability for two turns, and trample, are both sickeningly powerful with poison and pump when facing chump blockers.


// Lands
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Pendelhaven
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island

// Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Ichor Rats
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Stinger Horror

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Invigorate
2 Groundswell
2 Thoughtseize (Just a placeholder until another low cc Infect creature gets leaked)
4 Distortion Strike
4 Unstable Mutation
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

as a rough list?


Urgh, I love green and black and hate blue. I honestly hope we don't end up splashing blue.

[Broham]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/scarsofmirrodin/dnj15erl85_en.jpg

I guess we're not getting a one drop Infect critter, but I like this guy. The regeneration on it seems kinda random to me though.

[Darkenslight]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/scarsofmirrodin/dnj15erl85_en.jpg

I guess we're not getting a one drop Infect critter, but I like this guy. The regeneration on it seems kinda random to me though.

I disagree. The idea is that the mamba sheds its skin in order to not be destroyed.

[zabuza]

Well, now the deck has 12 infect creatures with 2cc that has evasion (stinger) or any useful hability (myr and mamba). With the lord you can get a party there. Now that lord has been printed Dark ritual seems better than ESG (before it wasn´t ;) ) but Perhaps playing noble hierarch could be an interesting option (the problem is having a non infect dude and that it doesn´t produce black). The thing is that now sometimes we want reaching the 4CC curve so perhaps could be an option playing tomb´s and city of traitors?? Or any other accel form.

If we find a way to do that you can play might of oaks (with a second turn kill ;), stonewood invocation which almost win you a game and save your creatures, Lord of infect and lot of nice additions.

Another thing is that now rancor sounds better because a rancored mamba sounds sexy and rancoring a myr is a 5 power on a blocked creature.
Vines of the vadtwood sound needed too because you don´t want a 2x1 and a way to protect your infect dudes is neccesary. Any idea??

What do you think???

[Broham]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110936&d=1285075623

Another 2 drop! I love this little guy, he will make blocking assignments a pain in the ass for my opponent.

[Cire]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110936&d=1285075623

Another 2 drop! I love this little guy, he will make blocking assignments a pain in the ass for my opponent.

lol also you could if you want make the deck mono green lol

[jnosrati]

wheres the sliver...?

[Benjammn]

wheres the sliver...?

Not necessary now. There are enough small infect creatures to make this deck work. There are four 2-mana 1/1s, a three-mana 2/1 and 2/3, and a lord. Plus, Mutavault sucks because of mana requirements.

Now the real question is whether the deck goes for speed (shooting for the T2 swing + Invigorate + Beserk kill) or is slower to run stuff like Thoughtseize to help against removal/countermagic.

[perm]

ichorclaw myr is functionally far better than that necropede, I probably wouldn't run it. Myr cuts goyfs way way down to size.

[makochman]

What about the 1-mana 1/1 that gets infect for B?

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/scarsofmirrodin/6qn910pg7m_en.jpg

IMO it is better than e.g. Necropede.

[Darkenslight]

You cannot forget the 4-drop that recurs your Infect dudes.

[Stall_19]

Seems very good with this card.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/scarsofmirrodin/nweksmvoef_en.jpg

It's one way to ensure your creatures aren't blocked.

[Ben]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/scarsofmirrodin/eossz5kng1_en.jpg

This guy seem decent,although nothing special, 3cc for 2/3 infect isn't that bad.

[Cire]

Assault Strobe R
Sorcery
Target creature gains double strike until end of turn.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Hah, they did it, they made a 1cc Infect artifact. :laugh:

[dahcmai]

Heh, I had not noticed there was a thread already for this. Cool Seems we're on the same track, though this one is practically putting itself together.

Here's what I have so far. Keep in mind this is my first draft and I haven't tested it at all.

2 Pendlehaven
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Gemstone Caverns (probably needs to go to 4)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Plague Stinger
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Vector Asp
3 Blight Mamba
4 Necropede

4 Thoughtseize
2 Cold eyed Selkie
2 Groundswell
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
3 Assault Strobe



I spread the Zerk effects out to 7 and pump4 effects to 10 spells so it's a little lopsided, but I think it may work. I'll have to play with it some before I get the numbers right in there for that. I might want another assault Strobe, but casting a red spell out of the deck might be tricky.

I just plain didn't have enough black spells to support Unmask in the end, though I desperately wanted it in this deck. Rouse is an interesting idea since it ups the black count. I may have to play around with that idea since Unmask would be amazingly good in this style of deck.


These are my tossed cards list.

Unmask - not enough black sadly.

Swarmyard - I'm using a really tight manabase so I didn't think I could get away with it. Great trick though.

Swamp Mosquito - It is a nice little guy to finish people off even if it doesn't do damage.

Vines of the Vastwood - I tried this card in regular Green stompy and it became a love/hate relationship. you love having it for the random Swords that comes eventually for your guy, but hate how it turns off Berzerk.

Simian Spirit Guide - Might be a consideration especially since Assault is red.

Dark Confidant - I really like the idea of this guy in there. Might replace Selkie. I haven't tested either yet.

Bounty of the Hunt - Free spells are always good. It just wasn't a one shot kill with Zerk stuff so I tossed it.

Goyf - Amazingly good card, but goes against the theme pretty hard. Not going for a damage kill, though he may be a consideration later if the infect guys are just too weak. Confidant would probably go in first though.

Rancor - another card I really wanted, but it's just half as slow as a +4 pump so it went to the wayside. Might come back later if I keep seeing a need to use the wither part of infect more. there are a lot of creatures out right now.

Livewire Lash - 2 Artifact equipment
Equipped creature gets +2/+0 and gains "Whenever this creature becomes a target of a spell, this creature deals 2 damage to target creature or player." Equip 2

I thought about this one and decided it was too slow also. Now for standard I might play this. It's a pretty nasty trick.

The fact that you can get blown out by a Stifle or waste is a definite problem so I may have to raise the counts a lot. Bah, this deck wants so much good stuff. I'm probably going to have to up the land count anyway since its seriously, seriously greedy, but it is an all-in type of deck. Nice part is you can sub in ravnica duals if you like since you could care less about life totals. It's going to be over in 3-4 turns anyway one way or the other.

Wish my pre-orders would come in quick, I hate making this many proxies. I think this has promise though it still has the eternal problem of getting owned by a swords. Might have to add a couple of Duress or really work on getting Unmask in.

[Darkenslight]

I've been looking at this deck, and it seems interesting.

I have a U/G Infect list that seems pretty decent on paper:

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
5 Forest

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Blight Mamba
4 Cystbearer
4 Thrummingbird
4 Turn Aside
4 Steady Progress
4 Ichorclaw Myr

4 Darksteel Axe
2 Infiltration Lens
2 Whispersilk Cloak
4 Invigorate

Card choices

Whispersilk Cloak - Unblockability is pretty good, I hear.

Darksteel Axe - Indestructible equip with a power boost. Seems pretty good, from what I hear.

Turn Aside[cards] - stops things going Farming or Walking.

[cards]Infiltration Lens - seems like a pretty harsh choice between being poisioned to death, or letting me draw some cards.

Optional others

Berserk - power-doubling and Trample. 'Nuff said.

Grafted Wargear - potent p/t boost. Its bigger and uglier cousin Grafted Exoskeleton could go in, but the cost seems especially high.

[Pneumatiker]

Infiltration Lens - seems like a pretty harsh choice between being poisioned to death, or letting me draw some cards.

Why draw cards if you can just kill him for one less mana with Distortion Strike?

[Darkenslight]

Why draw cards if you can just kill him for one less mana with Distortion Strike?

Seems like a strong plan. :)

[Apex]

Vines of the Vastwood - I tried this card in regular Green stompy and it became a love/hate relationship. you love having it for the random Swords that comes eventually for your guy, but hate how it turns off Berzerk.

Just a heads up, as Vines give your creature Troll-Shroud, so it doesn't actually turn off any Berserk effect. Which is why I think Vines is pretty good in this deck, protect a guy from a removal, give it +4/+4, and if you add Berserk, it's 10 poison counters right there.

[dahcmai]

lol, I had never noticed that before. I had played the card incorrectly all that time? I really had never looked at it that closely. I'm kind of blind and play by picture. I will definitely use it then as a 4 of. Guess it's an easy cut of -2 Groundswell and -2 Might of Krosa for 4 of them. That will make you feel dumb.

[Red_Death01]

...why not have the mana base simply be pure fetches and 4 tropical island, bayou, underground sea? The only way I see this working is if you can manage to turn it into a turn 3 or turn 2 kill. Evlish Spirit Guide may also be wanted- free mana... speed up tempo... lotus petal maybe? tutors... so forth...

[Darkenslight]

...why not have the mana base simply be pure fetches and 4 tropical island, bayou, underground sea? The only way I see this working is if you can manage to turn it into a turn 3 or turn 2 kill. Evlish Spirit Guide may also be wanted- free mana... speed up tempo... lotus petal maybe? tutors... so forth...

Blood. Moon.

Remember, most of these creatures won't come down until turn 2 at the earliest.

[kinda]

nvm.

[Captain Hammer]

We do have the option to go monogreen, just saying.

Green and artifact has plenty of infect guys now. Lots of pump. Pendelhaven. Rancor. ESG and even Selkie.

[Barook]

We do have the option to go monogreen, just saying.

Green and artifact has plenty of infect guys now. Lots of pump. Pendelhaven. Rancor. ESG and even Selkie.
But what do you gain from that, considering you lose Black's discard and some decent Infect creatures?

[dahcmai]

What's the real benefit of going to all basics especially in the one I listed? Ok, you've shored up your weakness to Wasteland. If you went first, you already cast a turn 1 dude or you should have mulliganed that hand. They waste a land. Cool, I play another and kill them. GG. It really doesn't make that much of a difference. I'm going to have some combination of +4 effect / Zerk effect in hand and only going to need 2 mana, one of which can come from a spirit guide or is free. It's redundancy that's going to make this deck work. You can't afford to go into the long game or even the mid game with a bunch of overly weak creatures and giant growths. It's why I don't even bother with things to play around Blood Moon. It will take some testing, but I doubt it's going to matter.


One cool thing I found with this deck is you get to play this for enchantment removal. Reverent Silence That's a nice bonus for an aggro deck.

[Yawgmoth]

Consider Reckless Charge.

[Darkenslight]

Here's a suggested mono-G list:

Land:

14 Forest
2 Pendelhaven
2 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
4 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures:

4 Blight Mamba
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede
2 Corpse Cur
4 Cystbearer

Pump:

4 Rancor
4 Seal of Strength
4 Invigorate
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Scent of Ivy
2 Concordant Crossroads

[dahcmai]

No Berzerk though? It's mono-G, that one should be an auto include no matter what. That and Might of old Krosa since it provides one more power than Seal. Scent is interesting, though I remember playing with those back in saga block and they always went kind of meh after a couple of turns in an aggro deck, never liked them much.


Reckless charge would be ok if I was in red more. I'll keep it in mind if I shift over to that color more. I didn't want to splash too far off base since wastelands do still suck and I only ran one Taiga to fetch up.

[Darkenslight]

Berserk would probably only go in the Crossroads slot. Might is marginally worse than Seal here because Seall allows you a first-turn drop.

I'm considering removing four Forest for Chrome Mox. What do you think of that change?

[Ryoku]

Here's a suggested mono-G list:

Land:

4 Verdant Catacombs


You should certainly not have those in there. Especially with UG madness running around, your chances of getting blown out by stifle skyrocket.

[Darkenslight]

You should certainly not have those in there. Especially with UG madness running around, your chances of getting blown out by stifle skyrocket.

Which, if you expect to be the case, you can change for something else, like, say, Chrome Mox.

Also, the Catacombs thin the deck, leaving more threats to draw.

[perm]

Livewire lash seems bonkers, IMO one of the only equips worthy of being in this deck. You can essentially win if you have it equipped with a pump in your hand.

[DragoFireheart]

Livewire lash seems bonkers, IMO one of the only equips worthy of being in this deck. You can essentially win if you have it equipped with a pump in your hand.


When the creature deals damage ala the Livewire Lash trigger, does it deal damage to lifetotal or give poison counters?

[Aadz0r]

Infect says: This creature deals damage in the form of poison counters, and Livewire Lash says: this creature deals 2 damage, so it would give poison counters...

[scrumdogg]

4 mana is a lot for a deck like this, however, especially since all the relevant critters cost 2 mana. Having to wait until Turn 4 to equip and attack is not a good situation for a Stompy deck.

[Benjammn]

I'm pretty sure the only way this deck is remotely viable is by trying to kill T2/3 with Invigorate + Berserk or Might of Old Krosa + Berserk, possibly with some Thoughtseize action. A wildly inconsistent sorcery in another color is terrible. An equipment that does nothing the turn you play it until T4 is terrible. Chrome Mox is....not great either. Stompy decks burn through their cards: they need every spell they can get, so having to imprint one onto Chrome Mox seems pretty poor when one-shot effects like Lotus Petal or Elvish Spirit Guide essentially do the same thing but only cost one card. Sure, it isn't repeatable, but

Berserk needs to be in every version of this deck. This isn't the budget forum, so not including it is a sin. It is actually what allows the deck to win rather than look like a terrible Standard deck. Invigorate needs to be in every deck. It is free (well, mostly) and the life-gain is moot unlike in other Stompy decks.

[dahcmai]

I'll argue the crappy sorcery card. It's a virtual Berserk in this deck. Sure, you have to cast it before you declare attackers, but what are they really going to do about it? Vines takes care of that problem if you haven't already Thoughtseized them. I think the mana is the only problem really. But there's not much fixing that.

I'll have test results sometime next week against most of the format after I get my cards in. I have a few things now at least from the pre-release. So far, we might have a new stompy deck that is actually scary and not a matter of having a decent removal spell to stop it. Feels more like combo than aggro.

Gemstone Caverns might have a new home. It's been great so far, though it makes you go all in even further.

[rufus]

I'll argue the crappy sorcery card. It's a virtual Berserk in this deck. Sure, you have to cast it before you declare attackers, but what are they really going to do about it? Vines takes care of that problem if you haven't already Thoughtseized them. I think the mana is the only problem really. But there's not much fixing that.
...
Gemstone Caverns might have a new home. It's been great so far, though it makes you go all in even further.

It does look strong. Wild Might seems like it should be looked at as well.
Since the all in approach is a combo deck, it seems like you'd want a strong play first option.

Also, I thought that 'stompy' referred to chalice aggro decks like Dragon Stompy that combine soft lock and efficient threats, while this seems to be a combo deck.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I'm wondering which list will prove best for this deck. Soon as Scars comes out, I'm deciding between two different styles:

B/G Berserk vs MBC style. All comes down to my meta then, if I'm fighting a lot of blue, I might go for more disruption.

[dahcmai]

There's a third option. I was trying to make it work in standard, but I was waiting until I actually had most of the cards in hand before messing with it. (I hate making proxies). Using blue's proliferate to boost up a single hit of poison. This strategy would not only let you go into any color exclusively, but also even use one of the older poison creatures if you liked. Suq'Ata Assassin isn't horrid being that's he mainly unblockable and the sliver is even better. I think I'd still use the myr probably since no one will block that thing early on, but the idea is you get one counter on them somehow and then ignore the creatures from there on out and concentrate on just boosting the counters.

It would make for interesting effects in mono-U since that archtype already likes to play things like EE and Powder Keg. Rachet bomb is obviously worth playing and plays well with proliferate too. I've been trying to find some good way of reusing a Magosi also. Might be a path to take in that. Jace would love it, Gemstone Mines, Lilting Refrain, Parallax Tide, and I'm sure there's other things worth throwing around counters on while you are at it. there's ten million cards in my EDH deck alone that mess with counters. A few of them have to be worthy of using.

Rough idea, but it might have some promise. Who knows.

[Pneumatiker]

The problem with Magosi, the Waterveil is that returning it to your hand is part of the cost. If it weren't, you could put the first counter on it via skipping your next turn. Afterwards proliferate a couple of times, activate it, in response untap somehow and activate again, etc. But returning it to your hand when adding the first ability to the stack ruins your day.

[dahcmai]

Yeah, I know, otherwise it would be an easy standard infinite turns combo. But in Legacy there's a few ways to untap lands. I just needed to peice together which ones were worth playing and see if a three card infinite turns combo was worth it when you drew like crap.

[Benjammn]

Yeah, I know, otherwise it would be an easy standard infinite turns combo. But in Legacy there's a few ways to untap lands. I just needed to peice together which ones were worth playing and see if a three card infinite turns combo was worth it when you drew like crap.

Except that you have to return Magosi to your hand as part of the cost, so trying to untap it is pointless. Rings of Brighthearth and Giant Fan are the only cards it interacts decently with, and you really need two Rings in order to get things rolling.

[Moczoc]

There's a third option.

I will try option #4

Playing Poison Critters with Evasion and Power = 1 or 0 while defending with Ensnaring Bridge and Meekstone.

I don't have the list here at work, but it begins like:

4 Suqata Assasin
4 Plague Stinger
..
4 E. Bridge
2 Meekstone
..
4 Throne of Geth
..
and some artifact lands

[Mystical_Jackass]

I will try option #4

Playing Poison Critters with Evasion and Power = 1 or 0 while defending with Ensnaring Bridge and Meekstone.

I don't have the list here at work, but it begins like:

4 Suqata Assasin
4 Plague Stinger
..
4 E. Bridge
2 Meekstone
..
4 Throne of Geth
..
and some artifact lands

Creatures with power 0 or 1...? Suq'Ata Assassin? Not to be a hater, but I have no idea how you saw this a better alternative than the "B/G berserk-turn2-kill" list discussed before. I mean, with regular poison critters unless you're planning on winning in 6+ turns. And why would a weenie aggro deck need to put up a shield with Bridge and Meekstone, especially in a format with pridemages and grips already.

[Darkenslight]

Hmm, that's an idea - GW Infectious Prison...

The idea being that you can beat with your dinky creatures (made unblockable by, say, Whispersilk Cloak and all that, while Locking your opponent out with cards such as Glowrider and Hokori, Dust Drinker.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Whispersilk Cloak is way too expensive for what you're doing, and shuts down your ability to boost your own creatures. If you were to splash for B/W, why wouldn't you just use Mother of Runes for protection then run Elspeth & Moat to swing infectors over the top?

[rufus]

Considering that there are super efficient vanilla beaters available, I suspect that any approach that doesn't use pump effects isn't going to be able to keep up with Tarmogoyf & friends.

[Kangaxx]

Rouse is another option. Another free spell which is ideal IMO since you basically need most your mana for Berserk and 1cc pump spells. Just make sure you run alot of Bayous and Overgrown Tombs.

[Gocho]

You must focus. You want to give 10 poison counters with 1/1 creatures. So you need:
- A 1/1 infect critter + 1x +4/+4 spell + Berserk to kill in one shot.
- A 1/1 infect critter + 2x +4/+4 spells + 2 combat phase to kill in two shot

Seems that every other approach is slow, clunky or will lose to hate easily.

It sounds like combo to me. You get 3x cards attack and win. If you need, find another 3x and repeat. The way you get the cards doesn't worth (redundancy, cantrips, tutors). But trying expensive poison creatures or small pump spells will never work. You would need the 2x +4/+4 (or +4/+4 and Berserk) anyways to reach 10 poison counters. And need it FAST because Burn, Zoo, Goblins or Combo would kill you FAST.

[dahcmai]

Try the Gemstone Caverns, it's looking like a seriously good option to make sure you play a duder on turn 1. I might be jamming in Simian spirit guide also. You severely can't afford to take even a single turn past turn 1 without having a guy.

Man, I hope they print more black infect guys, this deck is screaming for Unmask like no one's business.

It's funny since I normally play storm and I tried to go aggro to get back in the use of turning guys sideways again and I start building combo aggro. lol

[Gocho]

Aggro-combo is the way :D

[perm]

Rouse is another option. Another free spell which is ideal IMO since you basically need most your mana for Berserk and 1cc pump spells. Just make sure you run alot of Bayous and Overgrown Tombs.

I think that card is a winner, because hands will need to be vommitted in one turn to win, and for a limited amount of mana.

[rufus]

So, I took an analytical look at this, and it seems that even a super-agressive approach like:

4x Berserk
4x Assault Strobe

4x Invigorate
4x Groundswell
4x Might of Old Krosa

4x Manamorphose
3x Street Wraith

4x Ichorclaw Myr
4x Necropede
3x Blight Mamba

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
3x Simian Spirit Guide

4x Taiga
4x Stomping Ground
3x Wooded Foothills


Is hard pressed to goldfish more than 25% turn 2, and has all kinds of weaknesses. This makes me believe that infect isn't going to find a home in legacy.

[median]

I don't think the goldfish is the problem, I think making your infect creature is.

[Tru3z3rox]

I've been playing this deck alongside traditional berserk stompy. With this list I have a consistent turn 2-3 kill, but the creatures are so vulnerable that almost anything disrupts me. While with the berserk list I tend to kill 1-2 turns after but with much more safety.

My list is as follows:

Lands:
9 Forest
8 Fetch

Enchantments:
3 Sylvan Library
4 Seal of Strength
4 Rancor

Creatures:
4 Necropede
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Blight Mamba
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Instants:
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
2 Vines of Vastwood

Sideboard:
3 Autumn's Veil
4 Faerie Macabra
2 Relic (Cantrip)
2 Vines of Vastwood
1 Reverent Silence
3 Nature's Claim

I think if we're to use infect then Vines of Vastwood need to be 3-4 of. Heavy control is the bane of this deck.

[Kangaxx]

IMHO, this deck will replace Eva Green, as the de facto Sui Black deck of Legacy.

I think a direction that we should explore but no one seems to be so far, is to forego a little bit of speed for consistency and resilency.

We are devoting 20 Slots to pump spells. If we were to play 16 permanent pump effects (Rancor, Unholy Strength, the Unholy Strength rip off enchantment in Eventide, and possibly Unstable Mutation if we're willing to splash blue), along side both Thoughtseize and Duress and possibly even Snuff Out, the deck would be resilient and flexible at the same time, not being so all in.

I would either play...



or



I like Dark Ritual over Chrome Mox.

The reason for Dark Ritual is simple. Infect is a black mechanic. So whatever other Infect creatures they print will also be black or an artifact.

Dark Ritual lets you play any of your creatures on turn one, so that you can pump them and win on turn 2. And it doensn't even make you imprint another card ala Chrome Mox.

There's few creatures that Chrome Mox can cast turn one, and the Mox also often forces you to imprint a pump spell that you could instead be using to deal with chump blockers against aggro decks.

Maybe False Cure.dec. Definitely not Eva Green. LOL.

[dahcmai]

Might as well go the full four of for Reverent Silence in boards since the main thing you will want to get rid of is CB and Chalice@1. Nature's claim isn't going to help you in most cases. Sorcery sucks, but it's better than a lock out. It's being free is the largest benefit.


Here's another one I am testing out and it might actually stay in the deck oddly enough, though I still want Unmask badly. Avoid Fate. Silly, but not all that bad especially since you can hide mana with Spirit guides.

[Tru3z3rox]

Might as well go the full four of for Reverent Silence in boards since the main thing you will want to get rid of is CB and Chalice@1. Nature's claim isn't going to help you in most cases. Sorcery sucks, but it's better than a lock out. It's being free is the largest benefit.


Here's another one I am testing out and it might actually stay in the deck oddly enough, though I still want Unmask badly. Avoid Fate. Silly, but not all that bad especially since you can hide mana with Spirit guides.

I think Vines of Vastwood is much better than avoid fate. Both are what the deck needs, but vines has the potential to be kicked. I've actually been playing this list and I like how fast it is, but it is extremely vulnerable to removal.

[dahcmai]

Of course Vines is better, it's the whole reason I added both. I was running into the same thing of needing to protect the guy swinging in so I doubled up on protection. There is no other card like Vines so it was the best I could find using green or black. Duress is your only other option and I was trying to get away from black so I could keep the mana shifted towards green. Turn 2 kills are much more consistent now. Force of Will is starting to be the main problem anymore. Removal is getting to be irrelevant in mine unless it's multiple Snuff outs.

[Tru3z3rox]

Of course Vines is better, it's the whole reason I added both. I was running into the same thing of needing to protect the guy swinging in so I doubled up on protection. There is no other card like Vines so it was the best I could find using green or black. Duress is your only other option and I was trying to get away from black so I could keep the mana shifted towards green. Turn 2 kills are much more consistent now. Force of Will is starting to be the main problem anymore. Removal is getting to be irrelevant in mine unless it's multiple Snuff outs.

They USUALLY only throw one piece of removal at your creature, so I think 4 VoV are enough. They usually wait until you try to combo off and then do it. Then you just hold VoV in your hand and in response to the removal play it. I don't think any more is necessary without diluting the deck..

[Alexeezay]

In my opinion Infect isn't possible as a pure Pump aggro build.
A B/G(x) aggro midrange deck would be the best fit...discard,removal and good infect guys...maybe with city of traitors/ancient tombs to accelerate into Skithiryx and Hand of the Praetors. then we could think about a black stompy/chalice variant. or just with dark ritual..

[Tru3z3rox]

Have you tried the deck? It is incredible fast.

[Alexeezay]

combo and vengevival are fast too^^

[rufus]

In my opinion Infect isn't possible as a pure Pump aggro build.
A B/G(x) aggro midrange deck would be the best fit...discard,removal and good infect guys...maybe with city of traitors/ancient tombs to accelerate into Skithiryx and Hand of the Praetors. then we could think about a black stompy/chalice variant. or just with dark ritual..

If you're not pumping, there's no point in playing infect critters - there are vanilla beaters like 'goyf or Bob that are more than twice as fast, or have really good extra abilities at the same price.

[Barook]

Just throwing in an idea, although it might be a bad one:

Surge of Strength and Blazing Shoal also make poison creatures instant killers when combined with Progenitus orReaper King.

Main selling point would be the option to run NO (Dryad Arbor + fetchlands to fill up green creature slots) as a back-up plan. Obviously, this game plan wouldn't be fit for a Stompy version. Maybe more accel, Survival and Fauna Shaman to back it up and get rid of dead creatures in your hand for more poison critters?

[Masamune]

Infect deck is weird...

In Legacy we are susceptible to lose many times because exist just a little quantity of removals: lightning bolt, chain lightning, path, plowshares, oblivion ring, lightning helix, diabolic edict, smother... beyond this, hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, cabal terapy, dazes, fows, counters, stifles, jittes, mother of runes... and when opp play a lot of creatures like merfolks, goblins, cats (zoo lol), goblin tokens (belcher), artifatcs (affinity).... oh my god... (sigh)...

Is it so fast? Good? Ready to win afterall? I doubt it :|

[Mystical_Jackass]

Sounds like another "because hate exists we can't win" argument. The deck probably won't be that amazing, but who knows it has some potential because it is fast. I do like though, unlike Charbelcher, you can run cards like thoughtseize to protect against a lot of that stuff.

[Tru3z3rox]

First of all I don't get what you're saying. PUMP WITH INFECT is amazing. Rancor and Berserk make sure damage tramples over. I don't have to worry about hitting them for 20+ like in traditional berserk stompy.

2nd of all...we ARE A COMBO DECK. We can easily race goblin tokens, a few merfolk (the control hurts), affinity, mother of runes, etc. Trampling over creatures is not the issue. The issue is control as it is for any combo deck. Hence VoV as a 4 of may be necessary.

It can win. It is faster than the traditional berserk stompy build, but just more vulnerable.

[dahcmai]

Turn 2 kills pushing past removal consistently seems ok. Counters are my problem now. I have to have Xantid Swarms in the board to push through on something like Merfolk. Though the plus is they don't like swinging into this at all since they will lose something for sure.

I really just think this deck only needs something more like the Myr. It's ability pushes past blockers easily and makes for insta kills even with a Wild Nacatyl out. The black flyer is good for that also. Necropede not so much and the mamba isn't so hot either. If you have one of those two opener, you end up having to burn pump on getting though blockers unless you have extra pump and Berzerk. That's the worst problem I have found.

Got my pre-orders in, man this deck is fuuuunnnnn! If anything, being that I am a smoker, I am talking this to the next Grand Prix so I can always get in a smoke break. It's over in the first three turns easily.

[perm]

I'm still going to push Rouse as a 2-of

[Masamune]

Ok... try with it in GP and share with us your results :D

[Alexeezay]

I can imagine how fun it is to beat someone with an infect common bastard :D too bad the dragon is unplayable because of its high manacost, hes pretty fly for a blight guy

[Tru3z3rox]

Turn 2 kills pushing past removal consistently seems ok. Counters are my problem now. I have to have Xantid Swarms in the board to push through on something like Merfolk. Though the plus is they don't like swinging into this at all since they will lose something for sure.

I really just think this deck only needs something more like the Myr. It's ability pushes past blockers easily and makes for insta kills even with a Wild Nacatyl out. The black flyer is good for that also. Necropede not so much and the mamba isn't so hot either. If you have one of those two opener, you end up having to burn pump on getting though blockers unless you have extra pump and Berzerk. That's the worst problem I have found.

Got my pre-orders in, man this deck is fuuuunnnnn! If anything, being that I am a smoker, I am talking this to the next Grand Prix so I can always get in a smoke break. It's over in the first three turns easily.

Xanthid Swarm is good for sure, but seeing as I don't own him I'm going for autumn's veil. It is a good counter to removal AND counterspells. It is actually quite versatile and you can usually afford to slow roll them if they don't apply pressure.

@Blight Mamba
I disagree with you. This is actually a good card and the regeneration effect is incredible. It pretty much powers down any creature if you cannot swing through that turn. It swings into dreadnoughts (if you pump it or rancor it) and makes them puny.

@Necropede
Here I agree with you, but as I'm running mono green I don't have many options. It has infect and is 2 mana or less so I use it.

I really hope they give us a 1 drop infect creature or an infect with troll shroud for 2-3.

[Tru3z3rox]

I can imagine how fun it is to beat someone with an infect common bastard :D too bad the dragon is unplayable because of its high manacost, hes pretty fly for a blight guy

Har Har Har. The look on people's faces when they lose to poison counters is awesome.

[thorin_the_king]

checking one french forum, i found someone who top 4 a tournament (28 players 6 rounds. 4-1-1) with this list:

5 forest
3 swamp
4 verdant catacombs
1 polluted delta
1 wooded foothills
1 windswept heath
1 misty rainforest
4 bayou

4 plague stinger
4 dark confidant
3 ichorclaw myr
3 blight mamba
3 ichor rats
3 cold-eyed selkie

4 berserk
4 invigorate
4 duress
4 cabal therapy
4 vines of vastwood

Sideboard:
4 diabolic edict
3 pernicious deed
4 engineered plague
4 krosan grip

R1: BGU still: 1-2 (0-1)
R2: Merfolks: 2-1 (1-1)
R3: BG contamination 2-0 (2-1)
R4: GW Vengevine Survival 2-1 (3-1)
R5: RB Goblins 2-1 (4-1)
R6: ID (4-1-1)

you can read his detailed report here if you know french:

http://www.legacy-france.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=4736&view=findpost&p=83142

hope this helps with this deck :)

his build is not as explosive as many of the builds posted here, but i like the inclusion of 8 discard effects + confidant + selkie.

what do you think guys?

cheers,

Thorin

[Dune Echo]

2nd of all...we ARE A COMBO DECK.
I don't think this statement is quite correct. The pump infect idea is still an aggro deck. A single Moat shuts you down. Blazing Archon shuts you down. Creature removal shuts you down. The proper way to view an infect-based deck is that it is an aggro that only needs to deal 10 points of damage. It's as if all the infect creatures have double their printed power. But the deck must be able to support the aggro portion still rather than hoping for a consistent one-turn kill. The winning elements of aggro are highly efficient creatures and direct damage followed up by creature removal.

[Tru3z3rox]

I don't think this statement is quite correct. The pump infect idea is still an aggro deck. A single Moat shuts you down. Blazing Archon shuts you down. Creature removal shuts you down. The proper way to view an infect-based deck is that it is an aggro that only needs to deal 10 points of damage. It's as if all the infect creatures have double their printed power. But the deck must be able to support the aggro portion still rather than hoping for a consistent one-turn kill. The winning elements of aggro are highly efficient creatures and direct damage followed up by creature removal.

I disagree. This is by definition a combo deck. Similar to vengevine (which can also play the aggro role with trygons and rootwallas). We CAN play the aggro role, but as a combo deck we'd like to win in 1 turn and preferably turn 2-3. I've played the aggro role before and won around turn 5-6, but that is not our aim.

Yes we are vulnerable to removal, but so are a lot of decks. At least most of the meta isn't removal heavy right now. Where has all of the zoo gone?


@Moat and Blazing
Yes that is tough, but what can you do. Those cards can be dealth with post board though (Moat more than Archon).

@Black Splash
I like the idea and that it makes us more consistent, but I don't find it worth it yet. I need a lot of incentive to splash and subject myself to color screw (I used to run the cure.dec which is a black splash and hated it). I'd rather wait until an amazing black infect creature comes out before I commit myself. For now mono green is good enough.

[Tru3z3rox]

Took my list to a tournament and it was full of control. I went up against vengevine, counterbalance with scepter chant, and merfolk.

I went 1-2 beating merfolk.

Lets just say I walked away frustrated...haha.

[dahcmai]

It's hard to make this thing consistent. There's three types of cards and if you draw too much of one of the lines you lose. Pump, Mana, creatures are all you can draw really and you need a tidbit of each depending on the deck you square off against. i so want blue in this anymore. I think I'm going to wait until I get some more infect guys before pursuing this one further. It's just not ready yet with the tools it has.

[HAL]

it's hard to make this thing consistent. There's three types of cards and if you draw too much of one of the lines you lose. Pump, mana, creatures are all you can draw really and you need a tidbit of each depending on the deck you square off against. I so want blue in this anymore. I think i'm going to wait until i get some more infect guys before pursuing this one further. It's just not ready yet with the tools it has.

qft

[Tru3z3rox]

I agree. I was a bit disappointed, but winning did make me feel amazing. Haha. I even got poison counter tokens.

[Tru3z3rox]

Took this to a new tournament and went 3-1. It was a good night. I should have gone 4-0, but I ended up losing game 3 to painter/grindstone because of a play mistake.

I had success overall and much of it was due to invigorate and sylvan library.

[TygerClaw]

Has anyone considered adventuring gear for some of the pump? It only costs 1 to equip and can make any fetch land into +4/+4 (nearly the equivalent to +8/+8 vs players) It can also make any of your infect guys a legitimate threat and not be quite as much of a 2 for 1 vs removal

the fetch can also pump the guys as an instant speed vs something like grim lavamancer etc. Might be worth testing even if it doesn't fully pan out.

[Tru3z3rox]

Has anyone considered adventuring gear for some of the pump? It only costs 1 to equip and can make any fetch land into +4/+4 (nearly the equivalent to +8/+8 vs players) It can also make any of your infect guys a legitimate threat and not be quite as much of a 2 for 1 vs removal

the fetch can also pump the guys as an instant speed vs something like grim lavamancer etc. Might be worth testing even if it doesn't fully pan out.

I think that equipments are too slow for this deck. We want to win in 1 turn and playing/equiping a creature is too mana intensive.

[dahcmai]

Sylvan Library seems like it's amazing in here though. I'll have to give that a shot, though I keep wanting a 1 cc duder more than anything else.

[zabuza]

Here, in Spain, a girl called Silvia played this deck on a big tourney (more than 200 people) and made a 6-3 (she was very close to Top8). The list she played was close similar to the one we were discusing on the post (you can see the list on the spanish forums). I think the deck has potential and can win very fast so we can´t let this post falls into nothing. Have you more ideas to improve it??

[makochman]

Here, in Spain, a girl called Silvia played this deck on a big tourney (more than 200 people) and made a 6-3 (she was very close to Top8). The list she played was close similar to the one we were discusing on the post (you can see the list on the spanish forums). I think the deck has potential and can win very fast so we can´t let this post falls into nothing. Have you more ideas to improve it??

Could you please post a link?

[Gocho]

Here:
http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2990

But the list is in Spanish. I have translated it to you:


Creatures (24)

3 Noble Hierarch
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede
4 Blight Mamba
4 Plague Stinger
4 Vector Asp
1 Hand of the Praetors

Pump (16)
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Invigorate
4 Bersek

Lands (20)
4 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Pendelhaven
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacomb
1 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savanah

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Mark of Asylum
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Relic of progenitus
1 Snuff out

[KBH]

Here:
http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2990

But the list is in Spanish. I have translated it to you:


Creatures (24)
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede
4 Blight Mamba
4 Plague Stinger
4 Vector Asp
1 Hand of the Praetors

Pump (16)
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Invigorate
4 Bersek

Lands (20)
4 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Pendelhaven
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacomb
1 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savanah

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Mark of Asylum
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Relic of progenitus
1 Snuff out

I'm intrigued by her list because other than the Ancient Tombs she does not have ways to accelerate into a first turn Infecter. Which, in turn, makes it tough to win on turn 3 without Berserk. Did you she post a report? I'm very curious how she felt the various components of the deck worked out.

[Tru3z3rox]

Here:
http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2990

But the list is in Spanish. I have translated it to you:


Creatures (24)
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede
4 Blight Mamba
4 Plague Stinger
4 Vector Asp
1 Hand of the Praetors

Pump (16)
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Invigorate
4 Bersek

Lands (20)
4 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Pendelhaven
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacomb
1 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savanah

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Mark of Asylum
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Relic of progenitus
1 Snuff out

Hah..that is almost my exact list minus the black splash. Finally someone appreciates it. ;)

I agree in that you need ways to power out infectors turn 1. I run 4 ESG for this purpose and 2 sylvan libraries for consistency. I think this deck will improve drastically by the end of the block.

[paeng4983]

hello folks
here's a list that i can share:
feel free to give out your comments:

cretures
4 necropede
4 blight mamba
4 iron claw myr
4 plague stinger
4 ESG

artifact
4 lotus petal

defense
4 STP

pumps
4 invigorate
4 berserk
4 might of old krosa
4 rancor

lands
3 verdant catacomb
3 windswept heath
1 bayou
1 savannah
1 plains
7 forest

SB
3 Pact of negation
4 seeds of innocents
4 reverent silence
4 tormod's crypt

[Tru3z3rox]

hello folks
here's a list that i can share:
feel free to give out your comments:

cretures
4 necropede
4 blight mamba
4 iron claw myr
4 plague stinger
4 ESG

artifact
4 lotus petal

defense
4 STP

pumps
4 invigorate
4 berserk
4 might of old krosa
4 rancor

lands
3 verdant catacomb
3 windswept heath
1 bayou
1 savannah
1 plains
7 forest

SB
3 Pact of negation
4 seeds of innocents
4 reverent silence
4 tormod's crypt

STP really required in this deck? Also I found that 8 mana accels are too much. It makes you less consistent and draws you into too much jank. Aside from that it looks fairly solid.

[Pinder]

Based on the idea of having lots of small cheap creatures and free/cheap pump, I looked at 9-land stompy for inspiration. Because most of the infect guys are 2 mana and you have to go into two colors to get enough creatures, I've added a bit more land, but here's a rough (really rough) list I just threw together:


//Mana (24)
8 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant

//Pump (16)
4 Rancor
4 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Giant Growth
4 Invigorate

//Creatures (20)
4 Plague Stinger
4 Necropede
4 Blight Mamba
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Vector Asp


Right of the top of my head it seems like there's probably too much mana in there, and increasing the land count means that Land Grant probably isn't as good. It could probaby be more pump/removal, perhaps.

[Ben]

Based on the idea of having lots of small cheap creatures and free/cheap pump, I looked at 9-land stompy for inspiration. Because most of the infect guys are 2 mana and you have to go into two colors to get enough creatures, I've added a bit more land, but here's a rough (really rough) list I just threw together:


//Mana (24)
8 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant

//Pump (16)
4 Rancor
4 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Giant Growth
4 Invigorate

//Creatures (20)
4 Plague Stinger
4 Necropede
4 Blight Mamba
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Vector Asp


Right of the top of my head it seems like there's probably too much mana in there, and increasing the land count means that Land Grant probably isn't as good. It could probaby be more pump/removal, perhaps.

Cool idea with the Land Grant. You can probabaly cut two more forests. running 4 Rancors is also great because your creature gains trample. I find that trample helps a lot in pushing the last bit of posion counter through to finish your opponent (just incase you are not getting any berserks).
Vector Asp is not really that good, it is a pretty sad turn one drop (Don't hate this comment that is just based on my match experience, some people may disagree of course), I suggest you to switch it for another pump such as Might of Old Krosa or duress/thoughtseize. I find the hand removal to be quite useful when against Survival decks.

Giant Growth can be switched to Vine of Vastwood (Some protection to your creature is needed)
Berserk is actually essential to this deck that I would suggest you to run 4 of it.

Overall I would suggest the following change:
-2 Forest
-4 Vector Asp
-2 Bounty of the Hunt ( I think 2 Bounty is enough for you to get rid of the extra Land Grant)
-4 Giant Growth

+ 4 Vine of Vast Wood
+ 4 Berserk
+ 2 Might of Old Krosa
+2 Sylvan Library
You may side duress/thought seize when against certain decks.

[Gui]

Okay, this deck made a 6-3 at a big tourney @Spain (not me, just forwarding the info)

For those who can read in spanish: http://www.elsantuario.es/foro/index.php/topic,8171.0/topicseen.html

[Gocho]

You're a page later :P

[Gui]

True enough, I'm sorry, I just wanted to share... I don't follow this thread much, CHaPuZaS handled me the link and I posted here... never knew it was the same... xD

[Tru3z3rox]

Turn 2 kills pushing past removal consistently seems ok. Counters are my problem now. I have to have Xantid Swarms in the board to push through on something like Merfolk. Though the plus is they don't like swinging into this at all since they will lose something for sure.

I really just think this deck only needs something more like the Myr. It's ability pushes past blockers easily and makes for insta kills even with a Wild Nacatyl out. The black flyer is good for that also. Necropede not so much and the mamba isn't so hot either. If you have one of those two opener, you end up having to burn pump on getting though blockers unless you have extra pump and Berzerk. That's the worst problem I have found.

Got my pre-orders in, man this deck is fuuuunnnnn! If anything, being that I am a smoker, I am talking this to the next Grand Prix so I can always get in a smoke break. It's over in the first three turns easily.

Counters will always be a problem. I run City of Solitude in my board, but I do like the idea of turn 1 Xanthid swarm. I have to get my hands on some.

The only issue with xanthid becomes..they can still counter your seals of strength and might of old krosas. Those must be played during the precombat main phase.

Edit:

Testing City of Solitude has proven that it is a bad card. It completely turns off Vines of Vastwood as protection. I guess Xanthid swarm is the only option?

[paeng4983]

any updates for this venom stumpy from anyone of you guys?
:)

[Tru3z3rox]

any updates for this venom stumpy from anyone of you guys?
:)

Yes. My friend took it to a tournament and went 3-3 or 2-2 then drop..I don't remember. He didn't do well, but he was new to the deck and it was a big tournament. I'm doing more play testing on the side, but I really like it. I'm thinking more and more that I may need to splash black for plague stinger as necropede is just so underwhelming.

I figure I'll wait it out to see what the next set brings.

[TygerClaw]

Has anyone considered Llanowar Augur? Obviously has its problems, only during the upkeep, seen coming a mile away etc. But it may help against some decks like Goblins where it can stop a lackey or even a silvergill adept (without lords of course) while setting up for a big turn. It does give +3/+3 AND trample which isn't bad for G and it avoids Spell pierce. Just a thought.

[Atwa]

I think the biggest problem is that it pumps +3. Combined with Berserk, you'll need another pump spell to go all in.

The card is good, but you don't want to use 2 pumpspells on a 1/1 before you get leathal with Berserk.

[TygerClaw]

I think the biggest problem is that it pumps +3. Combined with Berserk, you'll need another pump spell to go all in.

The card is good, but you don't want to use 2 pumpspells on a 1/1 before you get leathal with Berserk.

Thats a good point. It might be better in lists using noble hierarch and pendelhaven. I'm planning on trying it out (in testing anyhow.)

What is the consistent kill turn usually for the deck? I've found (goldfishing) I'm fairly consistent turn 3 or 4. Is that too slow for legacy anymore? I'm using this for my deck. Also need to switch out a couple cards for invigorate, probably 1 rancor and one elvish spirit guide. I only found 2 copies in my collection!?

//creatures
4 Necropede
4 Ichorclaw myr
4 Blight Mamba
2 Cystbearer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Elvish spirit guide
2 llanowar augur

//pump
4 rancor
4 vines of vastwood
4 Berserk
2 invigorate
//trying out as 'berserk' 5-6
2 assault strobe

//Lands
6 Forest
1 mountain
1 skarrg, the rage pits
1 pendelhaven
1 oran-rief, the vastwood
1 smoldering spires
1 yavimaya hollow
4 taiga
4 wooded foothills

The Yavimaya hollow is definitely the weakest land, but regenerating an infect creature isn't bad when they shrink blockers or 'counter' surprise burn like pyrokinesis

[Tru3z3rox]

Really? Only 2 Invigorate. That is a huge mistake. That is one of the best pump spells we have in the deck next to berserk. How is cystbearer working for you? I personally don't like going to 3 mana unless he has both evasion and trollshroud. Also I wouldn't pull a rancor for the invigorate. I'd pull the cystbearers. Also the augurs should come out for seal of strength. It is a great investment turn 1 if you have no creatures to play.

I also think the augur is a bad idea as it is a pump that can be dealt with giving you less for when you swing away.

In goldfishing I've had turn 2 wins somewhat consistently, but I'd say the AVERAGE is turn 3.

I'm also still against splashing as it makes us even more vulnerable than we already are.


Edit:

Why subject yourself so heavily to wasteland? Its probably not necessary...

[Ben]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=35553

I guess based on this deck it is save to say Livewire Lash is a really strong choice forthe Infect based decks
Since this deck is considered to be underpowered without Berserk and Bayou... I suppose when his opponent's board was established to the point that the infect creatures were not able to get the damage through Livewire lash did the job for him.
Essentialy with Rous or Invigorate it could deal 2 poison counters for free

[Tru3z3rox]

Livewire Lash is actually quite interesting. It is our way around moat and scepter chant. Could be a good sideboard card, but not mainboard in my opinion.

[Atwa]

I think cutting Vector Asp is a mistake. It's the only way you'll ever get a T2 kill.

Something this deck lacks, is an endgame (although I believe Livewire Lash is a good way to get one), therefor you should try to get a kill asap. I've played a couple of days with the Infect.dec in Standard and it were always the fast versions that won (22 lands, 20 creatures, 18 pumpspells), not the more controling ones.

Therefor I firmly believe in a format which is way faster, you need to be able get a kill asap. Turn 1 Asp, Turn 2 Invigorate, Berserk is as fast as you get. When on the draw and your opponent lands a Goyf, you're already in trouble.

Also, please don't use any pump spells which pump less then 4. The choice for Rancor is defendable since it recurs itself, but avoid any other. Hell, even Wild Might is a better pumpspell in this deck then cards like Giant Growth and Llanowar Augur. This statement will so ruin any credit I had (if any) on this site :)

[Ben]

I was thinking that you can feed the extra Vector Asps (after turn 2 or 3 this card would become semi-useless) to Throne of Geth. Which can also eat up some Ichorclaw Myr to proliferate if needed.

Then again adding Throne of Geth may decrease the speed of the deck by quite a bit opposing to use to spot for other pump spell or other utility cards.

I think Livewire Lash can be main board just like aggro decks running two jitte. I will try it out and see how it works this week or so.

[Esper3k]

My issue with Livewire Lash is that it's such a mana investment for a deck that's pretty lean, manawise.

Seems interesting though. I like the idea of Infect killing someone with something like that or Soul's Fire.

[Tru3z3rox]

Vector asp is not the only way to get a turn 2 kill. Turn 1 land + ESG into anything next turn double pump. Also vector asp is not an option if we're not splashing black.

[Gui]

Also, please don't use any pump spells which pump less then 4. The choice for Rancor is defendable since it recurs itself, but avoid any other. Hell, even Wild Might is a better pumpspell in this deck then cards like Giant Growth and Llanowar Augur. This statement will so ruin any credit I had (if any) on this site :)

I believe this to be correct (even the part that now your credit is ruined =P). Rancor is actually a must-include unless you got a better idea to fight controlish decks than swing for 3 counters every turn if they deny your Berserk with counters.
Vines of Vastwood provides some protection and add +4/+4 for :g::g:, so I guess Wild Might is out of the pile. ^^

Berserk, Might of Old Krosa and Invigorate should be the reason to play this deck, don't ever cut them. I think Rancor is the next best choice, because Berserk and Sting are the only evasion you got on this deck, and rancor offer a way to go through a Tarmogoyfic wall. Assault Strobe seems to be a good reason for a red splash, so I'd play either GB or GBr.

I believe ATWA is right when he says T2 kills should be a goal here. That's why I think Petal Lotus should be an auto 4-of, and possibly ESGs too. I'll test a list I'm working on, and if it works, then I shall post it here :D

[Tru3z3rox]

I think Vector asp is a mistake to run. If they waste your bayou or you don't have enough mana to turn him into a creature AND pump then you're kind of screwed. If you want more turn 2 kills drop the asp and run petals. I already run 4 ESG so I get that turn 2 kill once in a while. Although the more mana accel you run the less likely you are to draw creatures or pump.

I also think that seal of strength is still a good card to run. It is a good turn 1 drop if you have nothing else and people let it resolve because they have no idea what it is for.

[Gui]

I'm testing a list, although I still feel that I miss some balances, and could use more evasion and protection, it kind of work...

This is the list I'm trying:

// Lands
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest

// Accelerators
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal

// Creatures
4 Blight Mamba
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Plague Stinger
4 Necropede
2 Vector Asp

// Spells
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Might of Old Krosa

I feel like Avoid Fate could help too, since Vines are great most of the time ^^

[Tru3z3rox]

How is that list working for you?

Avoid fate is a really good idea. I'll see if I can get my hands on some.

[Gui]

How is that list working for you?

Avoid fate is a really good idea. I'll see if I can get my hands on some.

The list is pretty fast and works ok, so far. Didn't test it to a high extent yet, tho...

So far, Vector asp is the least strong creature IMO, I think I'll test avoid fate on it's spot. The accelerators are ok, and 16 lands works fine to get 2 lands second turn. It gets some consistant T2 kills, with any creature 1st turn, followed by Krosa/Invig/Vastwood + Berserk, or 3 pumps of any flavor (as long as only one rancor).

[kiblast]

ok, i'm not a Pump infect player but i like berserk aggro decks (1st ''serious'' deck of mine) so...

@ Gui_Brasil why 4 petals/2 ESG instead of 4 ESG / 2 petals? i understand you want to reach all colours, but ESG is better for surprise effects/ dodgin daze and all your pump spell are G or free, so basically you don't need to crack petal for B...

and Avoid fate could be useful, but i don't see anything worth cutting for it.

I also think that cold eyed selkie or confidant should definitely be in your sixty, otherwise the first 2nd turn tourach will disrupt your plan entirely.

[paeng4983]

helle there guys!

white most of you are tweaking with the 12-18 infect dudes,
im thinking of ADDING this infect mechanic with what i currently
have with my 5peso stumpy (berserk stumpy).
here's what i have as of the moment:

4 wooded foothills
4 windswepth heath
2 savannah
2 bayou
2 taiga
3 forest

4 kavu predator
3 skychroud cutter
4 slippery bogle
4 noble hierarch
4 qasali pridemage

3 Lotus Petal

4 berserk
4 invigorate
4 might of old krosa
3 Vines of vastwoods
4 tainted strike
2 assualt strobe

regarding the sideboard, im still thinking of what to use.
your thoughts guys
:)

[Tru3z3rox]

ok, i'm not a Pump infect player but i like berserk aggro decks (1st ''serious'' deck of mine) so...

@ Gui_Brasil why 4 petals/2 ESG instead of 4 ESG / 2 petals? i understand you want to reach all colours, but ESG is better for surprise effects/ dodgin daze and all your pump spell are G or free, so basically you don't need to crack petal for B...

and Avoid fate could be useful, but i don't see anything worth cutting for it.

I also think that cold eyed selkie or confidant should definitely be in your sixty, otherwise the first 2nd turn tourach will disrupt your plan entirely.

Yes when I agreed with avoid fate I meant purely as a sideboard card against decks like zoo. It cannot be run mainboard.

I also agree with 4 ESG +0-4 petals...I don't run any petals though as I'd rather wait a turn but draw all business spells.

Agreed on confidant as well, but for those of us not splashing black it just isn't an option. I think sylvan library is good enough for us at the moment.

That all being said I'm really excited to see what infect creatures will be give to us in Mirrodin Besieged. A 1cc drop would be amazing, but as long as it doesn't suck (e.g. - vector asp). It needs to have infect on its own. I foresee something along the lines of a 0-3 infect for 0-1cc.

[Tru3z3rox]

helle there guys!

white most of you are tweaking with the 12-18 infect dudes,
im thinking of ADDING this infect mechanic with what i currently
have with my 5peso stumpy (berserk stumpy).
here's what i have as of the moment:

4 wooded foothills
4 windswepth heath
2 savannah
2 bayou
2 taiga
3 forest

4 kavu predator
3 skychroud cutter
4 slippery bogle
4 noble hierarch
4 qasali pridemage

3 Lotus Petal

4 berserk
4 invigorate
4 might of old krosa
3 Vines of vastwoods
4 tainted strike
2 assualt strobe

regarding the sideboard, im still thinking of what to use.
your thoughts guys
:)

Wait you're NOT using Silhana Ledgewalker? She is too good not to use. Aside from that it looks ok. I personally would limit things to 2 colors at the MOST. If you're doing 4 Tainted Strikes then there is no need for assualt strobe IMO.

[Gui]

ok, i'm not a Pump infect player but i like berserk aggro decks (1st ''serious'' deck of mine) so...

@ Gui_Brasil why 4 petals/2 ESG instead of 4 ESG / 2 petals? i understand you want to reach all colours, but ESG is better for surprise effects/ dodgin daze and all your pump spell are G or free, so basically you don't need to crack petal for B...

and Avoid fate could be useful, but i don't see anything worth cutting for it.

I also think that cold eyed selkie or confidant should definitely be in your sixty, otherwise the first 2nd turn tourach will disrupt your plan entirely.

Petal can avoid daze as well, as far as I can tell... I just want to drop the 2cc black dude in the first turn even in the case that I got only forest in hand. All my pump spells goes for :g: exactly to use only bayous/petals to splash :b:. It's more important to play the flying dude in the first turn than it is to force their wrong daze, IMO.

I'll test Avoid Fate instead of the 2x Vector asp, but if I feel that I need more creatures I can take them back and use fate as sideboard. To be honest, duress/kozilek/thoughtseize seems a better sideboard material than Avoid Fate.

I don't feel that this deck can run without a splash yet. Maybe if they print more green infectors for cheaper costs. So far, Plague Stinger is the best creature of the deck.

For Dark Confidant/Selkie, they may be an option, but they Jeopardize your chances to go off earlier... with that list, you usually got one or two extra resources by turn 2-3, as long as they don't kill your creature t1 you still got a chance to go off. But I didn't test it against black discard decks yet, can't tell for sure. I think that Sylvan Library would be a better CA card. If the match results in being bad, we can still add 4x Lifeforce to sideboard. ^^

[Tru3z3rox]

My friend is taking my list to a tournament this weekend, so I'm really excited to see how it plays out. We should have a report written up by saturday night if not then by sunday night.

Edit:
My friend took it to the tournament, but had pretty poor results. I'll have to tweak the deck a bit and see what I can do. This may be cause for splashing black...

[Gui]

Thinking about it, this deck can probably use Worldly Tutor, so it doesn't depend on bad creatures, and virtually have 1~4 more Plague Stinger for the cost of a turn... And possibly add a toolbox of tutorable business creatures, like Viridian Zealot, Xantid Swarm (possibly switching MoOK for Growth) or Vexing Shusher, at least sideboard.

I'll try something like that, @ my list above: -2 Vector Asp, -1 Windswepth Heath, +3 Worldly Tutor
To add the toolbox, necropede would be the next to get the axe.

[blaat]

Thinking about it, this deck can probably use Worldly Tutor, so it doesn't depend on bad creatures, and virtually have 1~4 more Plague Stinger for the cost of a turn... And possibly add a toolbox of tutorable business creatures, like Viridian Zealot, Xantid Swarm (possibly switching MoOK for Growth) or Vexing Shusher, at least sideboard.

I'll try something like that, @ my list above: -2 Vector Asp, -1 Windswepth Heath, +3 Worldly Tutor
To add the toolbox, necropede would be the next to get the axe.

Let me know how the results are.

After testing a lot, I've cut all infect creatures except plague stinger.
Didn't like the bad creatures and removal is a serious problem.

I also don't like VoV.
On Paper is seems very good, but in practice the double green is always tough, since you still need at least 1 more mana for berserk and probably more if you don't have a free invigorate.
This meant waiting another turn to go off (or more if you don't draw any mana sources / invigorate).
One other thing is, I always wanted the pump first, instead of protection (which is useless on bogle/ledgewalker anyway)

I had something is my head, like running the full tutor set and some 1-offs like kiln fiend (minimal red splash), plague stinger, shusher/xantid swarm + the full set of bogle/ledgewalker, but I figured I always get the trollshroud guys anyway with the tutor unless I expect heavy counter.

[Tru3z3rox]

You guys pulled Ichor and Blight Mamba? Those are actually powerful creatures in their own right. I've also never had an issue with Vines. You can also board in Avoid fate against removal heavy decks.

My friend mentioned to me that this deck is probably the next combo deck after the banning of Survival. I had to agree with him now as it is a very fast clock.

[Gui]

Never ditch Ichorclaw Myr, and certainly never cut Plague Stinger, which is the best creature so far. (unless for paeng's version, relying on Tained)

Blight mamba is the 3rd best, and Necropede is +/- tied with it. At least the way I see it. Vector Asp is the weakest, because it will only be similar to any other if you blow all at once, and sometimes it's easier to pump twice in different turns, and that requires more mana.

Our sideboard should probably have a full set of at least one of Duress/Thoughtseize/Therapy against counters, although I feel that we depend little on chain of spells, so that they only delay us a bit. And a full set of Avoid Fate against the likes of Zoo and every deck that run all that ton of removals.

IMO, VoV is an auto 4-of, for it's protection and pump, since no infector creature got protection, and we demand pumps. The way I built the list, at least, it is pretty MVP.

[Tru3z3rox]

Do we really need black control just to beat the blue match up? I don't think so. I think things like shusher and autumn's veil are enough. They let us respond to their response and push through as opposed to giving them more time to build up on their end.

Funny thing to note:
Mindbreak trap can work on us...haha.

[Ben]

VoVX3-4 is needed... double green should not be too much of a trouble even in black/green build since most of your lands should be green anyway.
You will find that most of time you would just be using VoV without the kicker when against heavy removal decks.
Don't treat VoV as a pump... think it as a protection and the pump is just something extra...

[Gui]

Do we really need black control just to beat the blue match up? I don't think so. I think things like shusher and autumn's veil are enough. They let us respond to their response and push through as opposed to giving them more time to build up on their end.

Funny thing to note:
Mindbreak trap can work on us...haha.

It's not really control, it's just one of the most common protection used by combos, with a wide range of effect, preventing against everything... But yes, it requires some test.

VoV on the other hand is proven to be MVP for me. These +4/+4 pumps should be 4-of, VoV, MoOK and Invigorate.

About the funny note: Mindbreak trap works, but I've won some games by attaking for 2 turns with 1-2 pumps and reaching 10 via that, so, MBT is kinda weak xD

[Tru3z3rox]

Haha...ya. I just thought I'd point it out. In testing the plague stinger I have to say I really like him. Unfortunately I had to pull the sylvans for him. At the moment I'm running about 14 creatures (only 2 necropedes).

I know what you mean about it being protection. I just feel like we should just be racing them as fast as possible instead of just trying to be defensive.

[blaat]

I still feel the Tainted strike + Silhana Ledgewalker/Slippery Bogle is the best approach after a lot of testing.
Trollshroud is what this decks needs, just like Berserk Stompy.
Most of the infect creatures are just plain bad against most of the decks except plague stinger and sometimes the ichorclaw dude.

Black also gives you discard, deathmark for some hatebears like canonnist and maybe Rouse (i'm not rly sold on this one yet)
Also, spoils of the vault is a very interesting card to get the missing piece you need to combo/win, since you will mostly play everything as a 4-off anyway. In testing I found them very good, even with the occasional instant death of life loss after casting.
Plunge in to darkness is an alternative, but 1 mana more and I haven't tested it yet.

VoV will remain in the SB probably because I don't like the GG cost to get the pump and it won't be that relevant with 8 trollshroud guys.

Worldly tutor was very bad in testing.
In a lot of games it was just a bad topdeck or would simply do nothing in my hand.
You're better off just playing enough creatures and mull into one if you don't have one in your openings hand.

[Gui]

I think this thread should probably stick to builds using Creatures that already have Infect mechanics, while builds that use Tained Strike as a "Berserk" at creatures like Silhana/Bogle/Kavu should probably be addressed at the Berserk Stompy Thread, which I believe to have a lot of useful info on this kind of build. I feel that they are different concepts.

What's you guys oppinions?

[Tru3z3rox]

Agreed. Having multiple berserks in this version is oftentimes overkill. A creature with inherent infect makes each pump in the deck ridiculously scary.

Moving on...I think splashing black at this juncture is the right call. It adds plague stinger who is absolutely awesome in the face of a wall of chump blockers. It also adds good sideboard options and the option to use Rouse. What do people think of it?

Pros of Rouse:
-Free (more potential to go off turn 2. Invigorate Jr)

Cons:
-Oftentimes dead without a swamp on the field
-Only gives +2/+0 pump

[blaat]

I think this thread should probably stick to builds using Creatures that already have Infect mechanics, while builds that use Tained Strike as a "Berserk" at creatures like Silhana/Bogle/Kavu should probably be addressed at the Berserk Stompy Thread, which I believe to have a lot of useful info on this kind of build. I feel that they are different concepts.

Why I put it here is the fact that infect makes this type of deck so much better in my opinion.
Also, the focus of berserk stompy is oppo's life and I want that to be infect.
Bogle and Ledgewalker are only 8 creatures, but those are not enough for a deck.
Since Plague Stinger is an auto-include, you can run 4 ichorclaws to fill it up.

Now I know Bogle and Ledgewalker don't help with the infect story unless you have pump and Tainted Strike.
However, I did find out that it wasn't that big of a deal.
I even won some games because dealing normal damage was just faster than the poison route (something infect critters can't do, except Vector Asp).
The best thing was of course the trollshroud, which dodged all their removal in hand.



Something like:

// Lands
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
1 Swamp

// Accelerators
4 Lotus Petal

// Creatures
4 Ichorclaw Myr // Xantid Swarm // Scryb Ranger
4 Plague Stinger
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Slippery Bogle

// Spells
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Tainted Strike
4 Might of Old Krosa
3 Spoils of the Vault / Vines of Vastwood / Rouse / Groundswell


Using this deck with both infect creatures and Spoils of the Vault, I get some really good results.
Average T3, but a T1 Slippery Bogle gave me often a T2 win.
Spoils of the Vault for the missing berserk/tainted strike was very good here, also a free invigorate has been the target a lot of times for the win.

Only thing which could be better are the T1 drops.
Without acceleration this deck has 4 cards, unless you want to get freaky and open with spoils of the vault.
Opening with Slippery Bogle is such a good drop, maybe I'll reconsider Vector Asp.

[paeng4983]

this made me ponder, will it give a punch?
what do you think guys,

4 ancient tomb
4 verdant catacomb
3 bayou
7 forest

3 SOFI
3 SOLS

4 ESG
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Plague Stinger
4 necropede
4 blight mamba

4 rancor
4 berserk
4 invigorate
4 might of old krosa

[Gui]

Jitte is probably worth a try in that idea too. And a couple of City of Traitors?

[Tru3z3rox]

Overkill I think. IF you were to use an equipment it would HAVE to be livewire lash. It lets you win without even swinging once.

[paeng4983]

Overkill I think. IF you were to use an equipment it would HAVE to be livewire lash. It lets you win without even swinging once.

im not familiar with livewire. how does it works?

[rufus]

im not familiar with livewire. how does it works?

Card tags Livewire Lash.

[Tru3z3rox]

Basically you equip an infect creature with it and then start targeting it. Even if you cannot swing you can just continue to target it until you target 5 times = 10 poison counters.

[GGoober]

I have this deck for Pauper Classic :P

BG Infect, everything is exactly the same without Duals and Berserk. In my list, I ran Viridian Longbow in the SB as a way to indirectly 'ping' poison counters when opponents start dropping huge creatures. It's better against control and does not require secondary pumps to trigger (unlike Livewire). Chances are if you need something that pushes poison counter outside of pump/trample, this is the only thing I can see using. It's been great for me on Pauper but I've never played this in Legacy. I'll swing till they are about 7 counters (very easy to do) and when I can no longer push past, Viridian Longbow wins it (especially on a regenerating Blight mamba)

[Tru3z3rox]

Haha..turn 2 kills can happen, but I'm not sure how consistent they are. You'd need land/creature/esg and the perfect pumps in your hand to probably push through a blocker, etc. It is doable, but I consider it goldfishing. Turn 3 is much more consistent, which is still a good clock considering you do well vs other combo and aggro decks...against control you would need to slow roll.

[Ben]

Aliright! the newly spoiled Phyrexian Crusader has pretty much everything we want on an infect creature (except for flying :) )

1BB
First Strike, Pro Red (= pro bolts and alike), Pro White (= pro swords/path/and etc).

2/2

[thorin_the_king]

yeah!! finally some good infect creatures!! dodges swords, burn, snuff outs and infect with 12st strike is awesome! it will reduce power of blockers before dealing it damage! if they come up with moar good black infect critters, it might be a value to add dark ritual and/or unmask in this deck.

[lyracian]

Aliright! the newly spoiled Phyrexian Crusader has pretty much everything we want on an infect creature (except for flying :) )

1BB
First Strike, Pro Red (= pro bolts and alike), Pro White (= pro swords/path/and etc).

2/2

I like that. You could get a second turn win. Not that likely but fun to know you can...

T1: dark Ritual into Phyrexian Crusader
T2: invigorate for free and Berserk for a 12/6 Trampling, Infest

Vulnerable to blue counter magic, but great against all those red kill and white removal spells.

[Tru3z3rox]

Guys calm down...he is good, but is he THAT good? He is 3 mana and slows our clock down considerably. He does have awesome abilities though...I wish they gave me double strike as well!!!

Edit:
AND he is 1BB...that may be tough for a deck only running bayous...

[lyracian]

Edit:
AND he is 1BB...that may be tough for a deck only running bayous...
Maybe the deck needs to shift from Green splashing Black to Black splashing Green?

All the good Infest creatures so far are artefact and black. You only need green for the pump spells.

[Valrina]

Or maybe it even needs to shift to a classic black shell, driving it more towards midrange, with the ability to dish out crazy moves with green pumpspells. So your opponent doesnt know what to prepare for, moves like that above for a fast kill? Or do he has to face a classic opening like ritual into thoughtseize into hymn ? Or playing a Thoughtseize and planting a stinger with ritual?

That maybe sounds stupid at first but it would make the deck way more unpredictable, and gives it the option to use a disruption shell whivch is one of the best since years. Though it for sure isn´t basicly stompy than anymore due the speedloss.

But lets be real, how great where berserk stompy before ? I see the point how it gets better with infect, but compare it to the sucess of different black midrange decks, which also would get profit from a doubled clockspeed.

[Clark Kant]

I like the idea of shifting to a black shell with a green splash.

Dark Ritual is awesome.

But more importantly, so is Needle Specter. Ritualing it out turn one and pumping it even just once with Groundswell/Invigorate/Vines of Vastwood or hell even Might of Old Krosa or anything at all makes your opponent dump their ENTIRE hand on turn two.

That's as good as winning the game right then and there. I prefer that to Hymn to Tourach/Thoughtseize (though there is no reason the deck can't make use of both).

[Tru3z3rox]

You guys realize that black splashing green will drastically change the deck? It will be very improbable to chain pump spells with heavy black mana in the deck. There are no good black pumps so you will slow down your clock by at least a few turns. The lack of chaining pumps also makes berserk just a little bit worse. Also it makes kicking vines of vastwood considerably worse. Makes dark ritual dead in casting pumps. I foresee this deck becoming much too inconsistent and much much slower with those proposed changes. Also 3 mana for a creature is a bit much. Even in my old berserk stompy shell when I was running silhana and predators I never considered Troll Aesthetic. I tried him for a while and he was just much too slow even though he was good. Same idea with this creature. I'm sure that they will give us more infectors in green AND black as those are the phyrexian colors. As long as the CMC only contains 1 B it is ok.

[Augustas]

so is it possible to play this deck without berserks since they cost an arm and a leg?

[Valrina]

They cost like 25 bucks which is half of a bayou ^^.... wouldnt describe that as an expensive legacy deck ;9 just dont buy the old ones even if the picture is way better.

[rufus]

Aliright! the newly spoiled Phyrexian Crusader has pretty much everything we want on an infect creature (except for flying :) )

1BB
First Strike, Pro Red (= pro bolts and alike), Pro White (= pro swords/path/and etc).

2/2

Alas, there's some pretty good red pump spells out there, and that 3 cc is a pretty big hurdle in legacy.

[Gui]

so is it possible to play this deck without berserks since they cost an arm and a leg?

To be honest, yes. You probably can run pumps instead of Berserk and kill one turn later, with the additional consistancy of not depending on the chain effect needed for zerk. The only problem is that you are going to have to splash black for any decent creature base, and to do that properly, it will cost you more than an arm and a leg. xD

[Tru3z3rox]

Thanks for the backup. I'm feeling this dude may not be quite worth running. I'm sure they will print more in Mirrodin Besieged. All we need some a 1/1 pro white/pro red for 1B....that would have been cool.

[Mystical_Jackass]

The new Knight pretty much dodges all removal. If you Ritual that guy into play against Zoo and with distortion and some pump there's not much they could do. The card's abilities are just insane for the cost, like 'Sword' knights >.> And against Goblins... just block and kill till you got the alpha...

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

The color-base to play the Crusader really shouldn't be a problem (though it costing three is a valid concern): Just run 4 Bayou, 4 Overgrown Tomb and any number of Fetches to get to the desired land-count. If they spent their first turn Wastelanding, you should probably do a happy-dance (this also means BB or GG poison guys should be pretty good for this deck if they get printed).

[Tru3z3rox]

The color-base to play the Crusader really shouldn't be a problem (though it costing three is a valid concern): Just run 4 Bayou, 4 Overgrown Tomb and any number of Fetches to get to the desired land-count. If they spent their first turn Wastelanding, you should probably do a happy-dance (this also means BB or GG poison guys should be pretty good for this deck if they get printed).

Tombs are always a possibility if there is a good enough creature to put in, but the 3CC is still an issue and I don't feel it is worth it to add those quite yet.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Or maybe it even needs to shift to a classic black shell, driving it more towards midrange, with the ability to dish out crazy moves with green pumpspells. So your opponent doesnt know what to prepare for, moves like that above for a fast kill? Or do he has to face a classic opening like ritual into thoughtseize into hymn ? Or playing a Thoughtseize and planting a stinger with ritual?

That maybe sounds stupid at first but it would make the deck way more unpredictable, and gives it the option to use a disruption shell whivch is one of the best since years. Though it for sure isn´t basicly stompy than anymore due the speedloss.

But lets be real, how great where berserk stompy before ? I see the point how it gets better with infect, but compare it to the sucess of different black midrange decks, which also would get profit from a doubled clockspeed.

I agree, Thoughtseize & Hymn give it much more control. With ritual you could easily include the Knight and I was thinking even creatures like Nantuko Shade (maybe throw in Tainted Strike) to give it a beatstick offense or defense they have to worry about.

[Gui]

Or maybe it even needs to shift to a classic black shell, driving it more towards midrange, with the ability to dish out crazy moves with green pumpspells. So your opponent doesnt know what to prepare for, moves like that above for a fast kill? Or do he has to face a classic opening like ritual into thoughtseize into hymn ? Or playing a Thoughtseize and planting a stinger with ritual?

That maybe sounds stupid at first but it would make the deck way more unpredictable, and gives it the option to use a disruption shell whivch is one of the best since years. Though it for sure isn´t basicly stompy than anymore due the speedloss.

But lets be real, how great where berserk stompy before ? I see the point how it gets better with infect, but compare it to the sucess of different black midrange decks, which also would get profit from a doubled clockspeed.

Yeah, ok, I think that's a good idea. A single ritual would cast 16 out of the 20 good creatures we have so far (considering the knight) and would usualy get spare mana for a duress. Not sure if Hymn would fit, but anyways, it's a god damn good card.

We could run less pump spells and ofc use some protection from black and its removals too. Something with 12-16 pumps, only the good ones, maybe even without Berserk. Something like Might of Old Krosa, Invigorate, Vines of Vastwood and Rancor would probably still get T3 kills consistantly.

It'd be a Black deck with green Splash, and would have protection from VoV and Duress, and evasion from creatures and from black removal.

EDIT: Some update on this: The deck is looking way less explosive that way, I tend to like the previous version better. Let's wait for new creeps out of MBS

[NEXUS7]

Returning to the monogreen version ... (or splashed, whatever... )

Look this land:

Inkmoth Nexus

http://serv3.tcgimages.eu/img/cards/Mirrodin_Besieged/inkmoth_nexus.jpg

Here we are, ... with a 1/1 flying infect for 1 ...

the problem.... to much wastelands in legacy, right ?

Will be playeable in our infect-berserk-stompy-decks ?

[ActionJunkie]

Better than Vesper Asp for sure.

Losing Wasteland slows them too plus this will give us more pressure.

I've got a super-secret-tech card I'm going to try @ a big Legacy tournament soon and will gladly share my results here. Adding this land should help the deck but now I gotta tweak the forest # again.

...gotta love this thing flys over Goblins and will easily out-race them.

[Raistlin]

Guys I will test this deck

4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out
4 Plague Stinger
4 Phyrexian Cruzader
4 IchorClaw Myr
4 Plague Myr
2 Vector Asp
3 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

What do you think about it?

Snuff Out will desintegrate some blockers and get easy to pass.

[Windux]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114214&stc=1&d=1295294349
We have some 1/1 for 2cc, but with Lifelink? Seems nice to me, since with pump-spells we can win the damage race more often.

[Gui]

Awesome land, won't be played in lesser amounts than 4-of. Non-wasteland decks will regreat not running wastelands. Also, you could run wastelands as well, although you'd probably lack color mana. I think a monogreen deck will be viable now, with that one, although the black dudes are the awesome ones... There's some good area for new deck concepts now. ^^

BG seems kinda obvious to be the most benefical, with green power pumps, and black power critters. Balance can prove hard to be found, tho. GL to whoever is gonna trye these :D

[KBH]

Awesome land, won't be played in lesser amounts than 4-of. Non-wasteland decks will regreat not running wastelands. Also, you could run wastelands as well, although you'd probably lack color mana. I think a monogreen deck will be viable now, with that one, although the black dudes are the awesome ones... There's some good area for new deck concepts now. ^^

BG seems kinda obvious to be the most benefical, with green power pumps, and black power critters. Balance can prove hard to be found, tho. GL to whoever is gonna trye these :D

Inkmoth's not that exciting actually. It eats your land drop -- think of its activation cost like it is a Rogue Elephant style restriction.

The most exciting guy so far for Infect is Plague Myr imo. Anything other than mono-g or g+light splash is problematic, because whats the point of playing an aggro deck that wins on turn 4 but falls apart if it doesn't?

Plague Myr
Ichorclaw Myr
Blight Mamba
Neecropede

thats already a pretty good creature base. one more <= 2cc in green or artifact and the creature base becomes a non-issue.

[conboy31]

Inkmoth's not that exciting actually. It eats your land drop -- think of its activation cost like it is a Rogue Elephant style restriction.


It seems you are vastly underrating the inkmoth. Dodging socercy speed removal (innocent blood, firespot, etc), not being hit by engineered explosives, can be played under counterbalance, while having evasion.

[KBH]

It seems you are vastly underrating the inkmoth. Dodging socercy speed removal (innocent blood, firespot, etc), not being hit by engineered explosives, can be played under counterbalance, while having evasion.

If you think of this as a Stompy deck, which it is, then the only relevant point is the evasion since otherwise you have Mishra's Factory which does not see play.

The evasion is nice but trample is already a big part of your plan.

Turn you play it, it eats a land drop. Its activation eats a land drop every turn thereafter. It makes mana, but not to cast pump spells which do not cost colorless.

It seems to me that if the deck is that hardup to beat control then its the viability of the deck called into question, rather than whether Inkmoth is the tonic it needs.

[Gui]

I think it is exciting because one thing I really missed in my tests was evasion. The other thing was protection, but that is somewhat easier to get. being a uncounterable 1/1 flying infect creature does have a big cost, I get it, but with the list I've been testing, it's not that hard to find enough mana for the pumps, since Invig is free, possibly Seal is free too, and Might of Old Krosa is pretty cheap, that added to the fact that I'm probably going to add Inkmoth at a creature spot, and keep the accelerations... Time and test shall tell, tho.

[ActionJunkie]

Inkmoth's not that exciting actually. It eats your land drop -- think of its activation cost like it is a Rogue Elephant style restriction.

The most exciting guy so far for Infect is Plague Myr imo. Anything other than mono-g or g+light splash is problematic, because whats the point of playing an aggro deck that wins on turn 4 but falls apart if it doesn't?

Plague Myr
Ichorclaw Myr
Blight Mamba
Neecropede

thats already a pretty good creature base. one more <= 2cc in green or artifact and the creature base becomes a non-issue.

Huh? You make good points except for the first sentence. Inkmoth let's you goldfish turn 2 wins... sounds good to me.

Now we have consistent turn 3 wins splashed with a few turn 2! Sure they can Wasteland but they would lose tempo too. I do agree it makes Vines of Vastwood slightly more tricky but personally, I fixed my list by taking out the one Ancient Tomb and upping Guides/Petals from 4 to 7 (which also helps the goldfish T2 win).

I soooooo want to share a secret tech card with you guys but want to use it in a tourney first... ;)

[Tru3z3rox]

Huh? You make good points except for the first sentence. Inkmoth let's you goldfish turn 2 wins... sounds good to me.

Now we have consistent turn 3 wins splashed with a few turn 2! Sure they can Wasteland but they would lose tempo too. I do agree it makes Vines of Vastwood slightly more tricky but personally, I fixed my list by taking out the one Ancient Tomb and upping Guides/Petals from 4 to 7 (which also helps the goldfish T2 win).

I soooooo want to share a secret tech card with you guys but want to use it in a tourney first... ;)

How do you expect to goldfish on turn 2 with inkmoth? You'd pretty much need 3 envigorates to do it on turn 2 seeing as how you have to activate it in order to swing.

Interesting tech? Do share. :)

[ActionJunkie]

How do you expect to goldfish on turn 2 with inkmoth? You'd pretty much need 3 envigorates to do it on turn 2 seeing as how you have to activate it in order to swing.

Interesting tech? Do share. :)

I promise to share the tech but not yet - let me try it once in a big tourney. I recognized it right after infect was spoiled but haven't had an opportunity - hoping to play Legacy @ Star City, Indy.

Umm... Invigorate + Berserk is "the" combo. So infect land + Forest (or another infect land) + Invigorate/Berserk (using a Spirit Guide OR Lotus Petal to cast Berserk). It's happening quite often against Goblins in my playtesting... well more often than I thought it would.

Some don't like playing many Elvish Spirit Guides and Lotus Petals but as I posted earlier... I'm finding 6 or 7 (4 Guides 2/3 Petals) a solid # w/ the Inkmoth. Pumping a flying infect on turn 2/3 is many times game.

[NEXUS7]

We will wait for your "tech" ;)

I like ESG very much, i'll put the 4 in my future infect-deck.

ActionJunkie, you play MonoGreen?

[ActionJunkie]

We will wait for your "tech" ;)

I like ESG very much, i'll put the 4 in my future infect-deck.

ActionJunkie, you play MonoGreen?

Yeah and plan to keep it that way until a substitute for Vines of Vastwood is found. Inkmoth does tempt me to try duals (since Inkmoth is now the Wasteland target) with a couple other ideas but for now, I'm finding mono-Green very consistent and Vines of Vastwood nearly unreplaceable.

[Gui]

Yeah and plan to keep it that way until a substitute for Vines of Vastwood is found. Inkmoth does tempt me to try duals (since Inkmoth is now the Wasteland target) with a couple other ideas but for now, I'm finding mono-Green very consistent and Vines of Vastwood nearly unreplaceable.

BTW, not that it is relevant, but Vines can prevent wasteland kills =P

[NEXUS7]

Well, our idea is to kill in turn 2, like a combo deck, ... the question is if you guys think if the inkmoth will slowdown us or not.

[NEXUS7]

Well, our idea is to kill in turn 2, like a combo deck, ... the question is if you guys think if the inkmoth will slowdown us or not.

IMO, the reason for go to kill at turn 2 is how vulnerable are our creatures.

[wilson]

like u say, our creatures are vulnerable, perhaps protect em with Thoughtseize/Duress? like

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Seal of Strength

4 Plague Stinger
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede

2 Sylvan Library

4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest

I think i would prefer such a build, because i rly fear trading 2 to one through acceerlated creatures getting pwnd by removal or force, which every deck has at least one of. also see the good synergy of library / fetchies ^^

im rly disappointed that they didnt do a cmc1 infecter in MBS btw... :( it would be awesome in necropedes slot. so now u have 12 one drops which is needed imo, its crucial to never let a land be untapped imo... this way u get the most efficiency which makes up for missing accerlation, that why i play seal.
rancor helps when creatures getting removed for not running out of gas. imo, no more pumps are needed in infect.

[Tru3z3rox]

like u say, our creatures are vulnerable, perhaps protect em with Thoughtseize/Duress? like

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Seal of Strength

4 Plague Stinger
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede

2 Sylvan Library

4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest

I think i would prefer such a build, because i rly fear trading 2 to one through acceerlated creatures getting pwnd by removal or force, which every deck has at least one of. also see the good synergy of library / fetchies ^^

im rly disappointed that they didnt do a cmc1 infecter in MBS btw... :( it would be awesome in necropedes slot. so now u have 12 one drops which is needed imo, its crucial to never let a land be untapped imo... this way u get the most efficiency which makes up for missing accerlation, that why i play seal.
rancor helps when creatures getting removed for not running out of gas. imo, no more pumps are needed in infect.

Might of Old Krosa > Seal of Strength

No vines of vastwood?! That is an amazing card in the deck because it doubles as a pump and a protection spell!

Also I really do think that inkmoth will be too slow. It is OK to run as a 2 of, but any more than that and it could color screw you!


Edit:
It may be blasphemy, but seeing as how the curve for this deck is so low already I was thinking of pulling the spirit guides and running 0 acceleration for mainboard duress. It will slow us down a turn, but in ADDITION to vines it could be the call for consistency.

[Karhumies]

How do you expect to goldfish on turn 2 with inkmoth?
My guess:
T1 Inkmoth
T2 Forest, Lotus Petal/Elvish Spirit Guide, activate Inkmoth, Invigorate, Berserk

Unless there is some kind of wacky play involved, e.g.
T1 Inkmoth, Thran Turbine