Alternatives to Ebay for Card Selling

[Tacosnape]

So I just managed to lose $75 (or 4 Mazes of Ith) to a guy who bought them from me on ebay, then exactly ten days later on the dot opened a full-blown claim on Paypal and completely refused to ever communicate with me. And nothing I did mattered, because buyers are always right, even when they ignore all attempts at resolution via messages, emails, and phone calls. And I can't even leave him negative feedback for doing so.

Given that Ebay and Paypal seem to highly encourage this cutthroat behavior and defend the buyer to the point where the Lord Jesus Christ could rise from the dead, point at a fraudulent buyer, and say "He did it!" and the buyer could say "Nuh uh!" and Paypal would just re-crucify Jesus, I need an alternative site/place to sell a handful of cards online.

Does anyone know of places with pretty solid buylist prices that they've had good experiences with, or something similarly useful?

[dahcmai]

There's actually not much out there besides Ebay. Well there is, but most kind of suck. I'll share how I keep from losing money though.

Don't sell overseas at all. Nothing against foreign countries, but it's too easy to get scammed. I used to, but things changed and there's a whole division of people out there buying stuff for the sole purpose of cheating sellers now.

Paypal only sides with the buyer if you have a tracking number showing that the package arrived at the destination listed on the paypal accounts addy. So you only ship to that and they side with you. This is the only time they will. you're right about how vicious they are about siding with the buyers. Tracking numbers only come when you ship in the states unless you go through UPS or FedEx. FedEx and UPS are really expensive though.

You want what they call Delivery Notification on your package. If it's just a few cards, ship them in top loaders and a bubble mailer. then add a piece of bubble wrap to make the envelope thick. Delivery notification is only used on packages so you need to make it more than an inch and a half thick.

There's even a spot in Ebay to enter the number so you don't have to keep track of all these little slips of paper. you check the box next to the auction that sold and at the bottom of the "sold items" section there's an option to enter tracking number.

That should help the most. I haven't been scammed in a long time now since I started that.


You might find this part amusing. I had that same thing happen for a set of Survival of the Fittests. I had quickly figured out how this worked the hard way.

I posted right in Ebay's beloved private Ebay powerseller forums about how I could buy from overseas and showed how I could scam anyone over and over. Ebay themselves deleted it with no comment. When I pressured them about it, they still wouldn't go into the subject. A letter to the CEO got no reply of course. It's obviously a known problem with no good fix.

Remember, if anyone here has a bright idea of doing that scam trick, it still is a felony if it's over a certain dollar amount and it's not a high amount. I've caught two people trying it now and one was in India. It's not completely out of the question to get caught and the penalty is ridiculously heavy right now. It's up there with tax fraud. The poor sap in India who tried it lived in Kashmir. Good job stealing shit in a section of India that lops off hands for theft.


And lastly, I'm not far off from opening my new website for trades and such. I made my own since i was tired of this exact thing. Bear with me. It's an expensive endeavor.

[Mr.C]

http://www.magictraders.com/forums

No fees. Tends to be more of a buyer's market, but you should be able to get close to the prices here:

http://www.magictraders.com/pricelists

Which are eBay averages. Sell slightly below that, and you should have no problem moving expensive cards.

[JACO]

MOTL

/end thread

[Afro]

The problem with MOTL is if you have no refs then you send first period or you don't sell cards.

[freakish777]

So I just managed to lose $75 (or 4 Mazes of Ith) to a guy who bought them from me on ebay, then exactly ten days later on the dot opened a full-blown claim on Paypal and completely refused to ever communicate with me. And nothing I did mattered, because buyers are always right, even when they ignore all attempts at resolution via messages, emails, and phone calls. And I can't even leave him negative feedback for doing so.

Given that Ebay and Paypal seem to highly encourage this cutthroat behavior and defend the buyer to the point where the Lord Jesus Christ could rise from the dead, point at a fraudulent buyer, and say "He did it!" and the buyer could say "Nuh uh!" and Paypal would just re-crucify Jesus, I need an alternative site/place to sell a handful of cards online.

Does anyone know of places with pretty solid buylist prices that they've had good experiences with, or something similarly useful?

1. MOTL (still probably needs PayPal for selling though).

2. When a buyer opens a claim against you, immediately go to the post office. Mail him an empty envelope. Put Delivery Confirmation on it (gives you a tracking number). Submit said tracking number to the PayPal dispute. Tell the buyer who's a douche bag to die in a car fire, as PayPal awards the case in your favor since you have a tracking number (no joke, I've had a couple friends do this when someone tried to stiff them).

[Meekrab]

Protip: Don't use paypal, they are cocks.

[Killing Joke]

So I just managed to lose $75 (or 4 Mazes of Ith) to a guy who bought them from me on ebay, then exactly ten days later on the dot opened a full-blown claim on Paypal and completely refused to ever communicate with me. And nothing I did mattered, because buyers are always right, even when they ignore all attempts at resolution via messages, emails, and phone calls. And I can't even leave him negative feedback for doing so.

I saw x4 maze of ith on ebay earlier today for like $45 or so.

Also, you're obviously leaving some huge details out of the story. It takes a lot more than just waiting 10 days and then instantly getting your money back. If that was the case, pretty much everyone would be doing it. So either cough up the full details or dont complain about in the first place as I dont see the point.

[sephorusFR]

I sympathetize with mly fellow US ebay victims. I stopped selling on ebay all along since 2 years now thansk to magiccardmarket. Is there any US equivalent ? If not, I guess it's a spot to be taken.

[jamied1981]

when i sell on ebay always get it so they have to sign for it its usually a few more dollars but its worth it not gtting scammed. As for abuyer I have had a few times when things never came i usually wait a monrh then take it to paypal, and they usually take a week or 2 investigating it. I always tell the seller if it does happen to coome i wil happily refund your money. It has came only one time it took a month and a half to get to my place from the states and i live in canada, sometimes the post office is just ghetto.

[dahcmai]

I was able to get my money back within 10 days, actually less, when I decided to test the theory of how the scam works. It only took me three days. I told the seller what I was doing and of course gave his money back. I was only proving a point though. If i was unscrupulous, I could have walked with some Alpha Undergrounds Seas. Sad really.

I'm not big on MOTL at all, but that's me. It's even easier to be scammed there.

[Atwa]

I sympathetize with mly fellow US ebay victims. I stopped selling on ebay all along since 2 years now thansk to magiccardmarket. Is there any US equivalent ? If not, I guess it's a spot to be taken.

You have Cardshark, which is internationally. However you can only buy from certain seller if you live outside of the States and these sellers are way more exensive then the sellers who sell only in the States. Since I hate to be ripped of on a price, I've never used then since I found out.

I guess for Americans it's alright though.

[munkie]

So I just managed to lose $75 (or 4 Mazes of Ith) to a guy who bought them from me on ebay, then exactly ten days later on the dot opened a full-blown claim on Paypal and completely refused to ever communicate with me. And nothing I did mattered, because buyers are always right, even when they ignore all attempts at resolution via messages, emails, and phone calls. And I can't even leave him negative feedback for doing so.

Given that Ebay and Paypal seem to highly encourage this cutthroat behavior and defend the buyer to the point where the Lord Jesus Christ could rise from the dead, point at a fraudulent buyer, and say "He did it!" and the buyer could say "Nuh uh!" and Paypal would just re-crucify Jesus, I need an alternative site/place to sell a handful of cards online.

Does anyone know of places with pretty solid buylist prices that they've had good experiences with, or something similarly useful?

I had a similar situation occur to me a year or so ago, I sold 4x Garruk Wildspeaker for $62 and sent overseas and they said they never recieved. Actually got my eBay account closed over the whole ordeal, with 100% positive selling references I got in 4 months, it still didn't matter.

Basically, PayPal said that I simply need proof that I sent out the items and the buyer could be reimbursed, just not at my expense. This clearly was not the case, and I was screwed.

All you need to do is send any eBay auction anywhere with Delivery Confirmation, and save the receipts from the post office until all is said and done. A paper trail is the easiest way to avoid getting scammed.

Also, don't ship to Italy or Spain. They have weird customs issues and regulations, and also have a problem with constant mail theft and fraud. Very popular in these two countries.

Side note: For all of you out there that are saying eBay sucks vs. PayPal sucks, they're owned by the same company. So actually, every seller gets double dipped on user fees from the same company. Interesting, right?

[xTrainx]

You want what they call Delivery Notification on your package. If it's just a few cards, ship them in top loaders and a bubble mailer. then add a piece of bubble wrap to make the envelope thick. Delivery notification is only used on packages so you need to make it more than an inch and a half thick.



Would you mind enlarging on this concept? I went to USPS (Meaning I only plan to ship within the US), and found this: http://www.usps.com/shipping/deliveryconfirm.htm

I clicked on the First Class Mail link(about halfway down), and then calculated the price of a random zip code, selecting 'large envelope' and setting the price at 1oz. If you go through the steps(or not, here's a link: http://postcalc.usps.gov/MailServices.aspx?m=2&p=0&o=1&dz=15210&oz=14620&MailingDate=9/13/2010&MailingTime=8:00%20AM ), I got .88c, and it doesnt seem that I need to make anything more than an inch and a half thick; they actually specify that it CAN'T be larger than 3/4 of an inch.

Thanks.

[dahcmai]

Well, if you read this it's only on a parcel (ie. box of some sort or large envelope).

Delivery Confirmation may be used with the following services:

http://www.usps.com/common/images/spacer.gifhttp://www.usps.com/common/images/bullet.gif First-Class Mail® Parcels (http://www.usps.com/send/waystosendmail/senditwithintheus/firstclassmail.htm) http://www.usps.com/common/images/spacer.gifhttp://www.usps.com/common/images/bullet.gif Priority Mail® (http://www.usps.com/shipping/prioritymail.htm) http://www.usps.com/common/images/spacer.gifhttp://www.usps.com/common/images/bullet.gif Package Services Parcels (http://www.usps.com/shipping/packageservices.htm) - Includes Parcel Post® , Media Mail® , Bound Printed Matter (paid by permit imprint only), and Library Mail. http://www.usps.com/common/images/spacer.gifhttp://www.usps.com/common/images/bullet.gif Standard Mail® Parcels (http://www.usps.com/send/waystosendmail/senditwithintheus/standardmail.htm) - must be less than 16 ounces and mailed at the electronic price. http://www.usps.com/common/images/spacer.gifhttp://www.usps.com/common/images/bullet.gif Parcel Select® (http://www.usps.com/send/waystosendmail/senditwithintheus/parcelselect.htm) - must be mailed at the electronic price.

So technically it's supposed to be a parcel and the qualifications for that are a certain thickness. That's where i got that. Not sure why you managed to get something about needing to be under that, it's definitely over. Maybe it has something to do with how I mail things. I only use Priority mail. Nothing else. It's too slow to mail with anything else and Ebay people are big frigging whiners. Anyway, I have never ran into a problem of things being too thick.

[klaus]

MagicCardMarket (http://www.magiccardmarket.eu)
\thread

[Pippin]

MagicCardMarket (http://www.magiccardmarket.eu)
\thread

Too bad its tied only to Europe, and while at it ... not whole Europe either

[Atwa]

Too bad its tied only to Europe, and while at it ... not whole Europe either

Cardshark is the website which inspired MCM. It's basicly the same, except MCM has a bigger inventory and is EU only (and Singapore for some reason).

[jazzykat]

The other obvious answer which no one has brought up yet, is to pimp it locally or at a big tournament. (Obviously don't get caught doing that, or do it within the rules, like city or regional MTG sites and just meet somewhere).

[Picc]

Honestly I do all my selling on Kijiji or craigslist at this point. Even if you dont get ripped ebay has to many fees to make it worthwhile unless you move a lot of volume (even worse if your based in Canada like I am and dont have access to cheap DC).

[dahcmai]

I thought it was fine to do small sales at bigger tournaments like Grand Prixs now? I remember reading something about that being changed. As long as you aren't setting up some display at a table or something, it was ok last I knew. I hope so since I was selling a couple small things to friends and would have hated to find out the hard way I wasn't supposed to be doing that.

[Tacosnape]

Appreciate all the feedback, guys. Given me a lot of good ideas to choose from.


2. When a buyer opens a claim against you, immediately go to the post office. Mail him an empty envelope. Put Delivery Confirmation on it (gives you a tracking number). Submit said tracking number to the PayPal dispute. Tell the buyer who's a douche bag to die in a car fire, as PayPal awards the case in your favor since you have a tracking number (no joke, I've had a couple friends do this when someone tried to stiff them).

That's a pretty crafty idea. I completely love it. Does it actually work?


I saw x4 maze of ith on ebay earlier today for like $45 or so.

Also, you're obviously leaving some huge details out of the story. It takes a lot more than just waiting 10 days and then instantly getting your money back. If that was the case, pretty much everyone would be doing it. So either cough up the full details or dont complain about in the first place as I dont see the point.

Learn to read before you start acting like a jackass and accusing me of fabrication. My opening post clearly says that he opened the claim after ten days. You can do this without any problem. Then fifteen days later, Paypal snatched my money away. And the exact amount of the payment after shipping was $72.99. What you saw today doesn't mean anything in regards to what my BIN went for just under a month ago.

And, for what it's worth, I'm starting to wonder why everyone -doesn't- do it. I've half a mind to do it every time someone ships me something without tracking. Unfortunately, I'm just nice enough of a person to not want anyone else to suffer through this helpless rage.

[BantFTW]

Magiccardmarket.eu is one of the best sites but it's all European.
But if you are willing to send to Europe I would really suggest it.
you need to give 10% (or 5% idk) of what you sell to them so...
If you don't sell you don't need to pay.

But the problem is that alot of European people do'nt have paypal
(visa) so they want to do it with a banktransfer...
Idk why americans don't want to do it with banktransfer bcs it's completely safe but yeah...

[Pippin]

Magiccardmarket.eu is one of the best sites but it's all European.
But if you are willing to send to Europe I would really suggest it.
you need to give 10% (or 5% idk) of what you sell to them so...
If you don't sell you don't need to pay.

But the problem is that alot of European people do'nt have paypal
(visa) so they want to do it with a banktransfer...
Idk why americans don't want to do it with banktransfer bcs it's completely safe but yeah...

This is not quite correct information.
Magiccardmarket.eu is European Union (EU) + few other countries. Not every European country has access to the site. This also means that people from US can't sell or buy cards from there.
Main problem with bank transfer are transaction waiting time (several days), large applying fees, and ofcourse its not that safe

[Nelis]

Whats the not that safe part of it?

[Pippin]

Whats the not that safe part of it?

Something about difficulty to chargeback when international bank transfer is in question? Making it possible to get scammed with reciever just disappearing (closing account, etc) without fulfilling his part of the deal. Those are atleast stories I heard 2nd hand.

Its most likely safest way to send money internationaly to someone you know, a trustworthy person that won't pull something like mentioned earlier. Safest as in money reaching destination - but thats one of the reasons fees can be extremely high. But yeah, I stand by that its not that safe to pay for goods internationally to complete stranger that doesn't have his account/name connected to a shop or some kind of registered business.

[socialite]

@Tacosnape

Ok I'm going to break this down because I probably do a lot more high value trades/sales then most people on this forum. (Not bragging just read the fucking tips + a lot of the shit posted here is stupid - no offense).



Magic Online Trading League

Seriously, despite what some say you don't need references to sell cards. You should never have to send cards before payment as a seller. Use your forum handle a lot of people know you it helps to have community recognition.


Use Paypal Invoice - there is a reason why it is there.

Invoices provide protection for both the seller and buyer. I see many people dealing through Paypal making personal payments to avoid fees - this provides you as a seller or buyer zero protection and is against Paypals terms of use.


Pack your shit well. No really do it.

Personally I go KMC perfect fit - covered by a KMC Matte Sleeve which gets put into a top loader - the top loaders get stacked and covered by Parafilm on the open edge - this goes into a bubble mailer sealed and shipped.
This isn't expensive if you buy things in bulk - looks nice and works well - usually people will throw you money for your effort.


Use tracking for everything and get signature conformation with expensive items, period.

Fedex is annoying to use (as a receiver trying to pick up items) due to their inability to store ground items at brick and mortar locations. They however do provide, in my experience, very good shipping i.e. no bumps/smashes/drops. I ship a lot of computer parts through Fedex.
UPS is great - their items can be subject to a 6 foot drop.
USPS is not as bad as people say, that being said their employees are fucking lazy, had many tracking numbers just not get scanned at various post office locations - making the tracking useless.


Be an elitist.

Don't ship to Italy or South American unless it is a well known buyer/seller.

Countries with crappy postal services are usually prone to theft.

Good luck prosecuting anyone in another country over lost cards.




If someone acts strange/unorganized, don't deal with them - it isn't worth your time.
Always check the references of the buyer before you sell. In addition take the time to do a search through the BTA forum on MOTL and make sure they haven't started arguments/petty bullshit with people previously.


If it's too good to be true it really fucking is, use your brain.

My 5 cents, it's always worked for me.

[Tacosnape]

FWIW, I did use Invoice, the cards were well packed, and they were shipped within the US from Alabama to California. The only thing I didn't do was spring for tracking. And apparently if you don't spring for tracking, you lose. Period.

Signed up for MOTL. Got piles and piles of duals and fetches to unload. We'll see how this goes.

[hyperchord24]

I tell you what, every few months or so, I make a huge spending spree on cards to build a few new decks. I've been using ebay less and less. Simply because it's worth the few extra dollars to get the cards a) from one or two sellers and b)from reputable sellers. Now, I still look at ebay just because I have a select group sellers I trust. I've been looking recently and I'm seeing a TON of Buy It Now auctions and only a few actual auctions. Is it just me?

I feel bad for people who just a have collections they want to sell. Ebay just isn't worth it anymore for sellers. The fees and the fraud are just too much.

[Killing Joke]

FWIW, I did use Invoice, the cards were well packed, and they were shipped within the US from Alabama to California. The only thing I didn't do was spring for tracking. And apparently if you don't spring for tracking, you lose. Period. Signed up for MOTL. Got piles and piles of duals and fetches to unload. We'll see how this goes.

OK. There. Thank you. So the full details are that you [Warned for flaming. I'm leaving the rest of the post, but it's still too hostile. Work on it.~NC] didnt use tracking. Thats all there is to this, which is what I thought fropm the beginning. This isnt the fault of ebay or paypal, it all falls on you for not using common sense and being cheap. Tracking from the post office costs less than 2 quarters. Whats worse, spending that or losing $75? Yeah, exactly.

If you own a computer printer, then you can print the shipping label directly from the paypal website. It comes to like $1.41 and includes tracking. If you dont have a printer, the post office has stacks of delivery confirmation stickers on the counter and it comes to like $1.80+ or something to mail a parcel out with tracking.

I get so tired of reading peoples posts about hating ebay/paypal, when it really comes down to a bad decision that person made themselves. If you bought a brand new stereo or computer, would you immediately throw away the receipt that was your only proof of who and where you purchased the item from? Then why would you not spend an extra $0.40 or less for a receipt to prove that you shipped a $75 item, especially when you may be asked for proof of shipment later on.

Seriously.

Also, MOTL is way worse than using ebay/paypal as trades arent linked to your bank account. Anyone can rip anyone and just open up a new account. Someone always has some horror story about getting ripped on MOTL, it happens all the time. Sumbody dun stole mah stuffs on da internets, so now Im jus gunna sell mah cards at da flea market. I dun even know how it happen, praise jesus.

[juventus]

I've made about 20 trades on MOTL and so far have never gotten ripped off.

[pw709]

I've made about 20 trades on MOTL and so far have never gotten ripped off.

If 5% of all trades ended in ripping that'd be a pretty chaotic place.

[Mark Sun]

If 5% of all trades ended in ripping that'd be a pretty chaotic place.

Would be tragic, however using 20 trades as a basis (and 1 whole trade assumed to go awry) isn't exactly using a fair scale. For example I've probably done over 100 transactions, and I've been ripped exactly once for $10. That's less than 1% of the total value of all of the transactions, I'll wager.

MOTL success can be had, after my initial month there I learned to network well with established traders, and I always send with Delivery Confirmation. At any rate, welcome to MOTL, Taco.

[pw709]

Would be tragic, however using 20 trades as a basis (and 1 whole trade assumed to go awry) isn't exactly using a fair scale. For example I've probably done over 100 transactions, and I've been ripped exactly once for $10. That's less than 1% of the total value of all of the transactions, I'll wager.

MOTL success can be had, after my initial month there I learned to network well with established traders, and I always send with Delivery Confirmation. At any rate, welcome to MOTL, Taco.

That was exactly my point. 20 trades is not really enough for evidence of anything.

[juventus]

If 5% of all trades ended in ripping that'd be a pretty chaotic place.

I have to disagree. If you're trading away 30 dollars of cards for something that is worth 32 dollars to you, and you expect 5% of all trades to rip you off you still end up with positive EV. I'd assume that in most trades you're getting more than 105% of what you're trading in return so a 5% rip off rate shouldn't stop you from making trades.

$2*.95-$30*.05=$.4

[Meekrab]

I have to disagree. If you're trading away 30 dollars of cards for something that is worth 32 dollars to you, and you expect 5% of all trades to rip you off you still end up with positive EV. I'd assume that in most trades you're getting more than 105% of what you're trading in return so a 5% rip off rate shouldn't stop you from making trades.

$2*.95-$30*.05=$.4
This bananas math works out great, until you realize that both sides can't make 5% profit from the trade. A 5% ripoff rate would be astronomical.