[SCD] Necrotic Ooze (SoM Spoiler Alert)

[(nameless one)]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/ftl/645rtdufghjikafsf.jpg

There has been a lot of talk with this card as a centerpiece to a new kind of combo deck.

Essentially, the combo goes like this: Buried Alive + A reanimating spell. Buried Alive tutors for Necrotic Ooze + two other combo pieces (such as Phyrexian Devourer + Triskelion).

Could this card create its own archetype, such as a mono-black cousin of Reanimator (getting rituals and hand/land disruption with it)? Could this card help existing decks such as Reanimator (Reanimator would start running Buried Alive then) and Cephalid Breakfast decks?

The Non-LED Dredge thread has already started talking about this card, but it doesn't seem that it will fit in that deck.

Feel free to add and discuss this upcoming card.

[Barook]

Quick, get copies of Phyrexian Devourer as long as it's still cheap!

The Triskelion combo is probably the best one due to only requiring two cards. But what's the best route to go?

Mono Black, probably with Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors to power out your setup fast?

Or as a combo in Survival? It also doubles as search engine due to all combo components being creatures. Assuming you have Survival in play and a creature in your hand, it kills for :2::b::b::g::g:.

[rufus]

The Triskelion combo is probably the best one due to only requiring two cards. But what's the best route to go?

Mono Black, probably with Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors to power out your setup fast?

Or as a combo in Survival? It also doubles as search engine due to all combo components being creatures. Assuming you have Survival in play and a creature in your hand, it kills for :2::b::b::g::g:.

There's also BU for combo/control with FOW, Daze, Brainstorm, Ponder, and possibly Personal Tutor or Intuition.

[luma]

Essentially, the combo goes like this: Buried Alive + A reanimating spell. Buried Alive tutors for Necrotic Ooze + two other combo pieces (such as Phyrexian Devourer + Triskelion).

I see a slight problem with this combo: if you exile anything with cmc 3 or higher with the ability gained from Devourer, it will make you sacrifice your Necrotic Ooze because its power goes to 7 or higher (4/3 plus at least 3 +1/+1 counters).

Edit: right, you can of course continue comboing by responding to the ability if you flip a card with cmc >= 3. My bad.

[Mr.C]

I see a slight problem with this combo: if you exile anything with cmc 3 or higher with the ability gained from Devourer, it will make you sacrifice your Necrotic Ooze because its power goes to 7 or higher (4/3 plus at least 3 +1/+1 counters).

Edit: right, you can of course continue comboing by responding to the ability if you flip a card with cmc >= 3. My bad.

Are you sure you can respond to it? It doesn't sound like something you can respond to, by reading the card.

[pechunato]

I see a slight problem with this combo: if you exile anything with cmc 3 or higher with the ability gained from Devourer, it will make you sacrifice your Necrotic Ooze because its power goes to 7 or higher (4/3 plus at least 3 +1/+1 counters).

Edit: right, you can of course continue comboing by responding to the ability if you flip a card with cmc >= 3. My bad.

No need to do that, Necrotic Ooze only has the activated abilities; the sacrifice ability is a triggered one.

[FoulQ]

@ pechunato: no. Read the oracle text, it is part of the activated ability.

BUT it doesn't matter, because the ooze won't die until AFTER that ability resolves. So you can just respond to that one with another one.

[kiblast]

Rough list:

1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Necrotic Ooze
2 combo creatures

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
4 Personal Tutor
2 Ponder
3 Reanimate
1 Show and Tell
3 duress
4 Buried Alive

1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

60 cards.

what do you think? i just picked up my chinese set for 10$ shipped. I think that this creature will soon have his own Tier reanimator.......

[addaro]

So you absolutely have to resolve Buried Alive or be super lucky (impossible) with Careful Study discarding both combo creatures... This seems kinda not enough to me.

I just started playtesting Entomb Hulk and this seems better in that its only 3 cards BUT you need to get all 3 of them in the yard and then animate one or get 2 in the yard and hardcast one. Intuition and Entomb both dont exactly do what you need here. Is there anything else?

[kiblast]

Maybe you didn't notice list also run 4x personal tutors, 4x brainstorm, 2x ponder, 4x careful study. If i could play ancestral i swear i'd do.


Intuition and Entomb both dont exactly do what you need here. Is there anything else?

i can't find any intuition (though could be a strong addition) nor entomb in my list.

[addaro]

Well my whole point was that the combo is dependant on Buried Alive resolving (see, the tutors dont help counterwar as much as another similar card) and I was looking for some other card, e.g. Intuition or Entomb. The missunderstanding is probably due to my english. My bad and I apologize for not making myself clear the first time (kinda hard to learn 3 languages).

Also Thoughtseize>Duress? Helps in cornercases get combo piece out of your hand or opponents creature when you want to use SnT.

[kiblast]

Well my whole point was that the combo is dependant on Buried Alive resolving (see, the tutors dont help counterwar as much as another similar card) and I was looking for some other card, e.g. Intuition or Entomb. The missunderstanding is probably due to my english. My bad and I apologize for not making myself clear the first time (kinda hard to learn 3 languages).

Also Thoughtseize>Duress? Helps in cornercases get combo piece out of your hand or opponents creature when you want to use SnT.

ah it's ok it's ok. Basically in my first version Duress were Spell pierce to be more reliable during counter war. But i guess that 'seize could be more interesting to keep key creatures in the grave, or as usual to discard Fow.
By the way, i really think that Necrotic Ooze has some potential.

[addaro]

Well ... the Ooze has some potential but the deck needs to be built around it. Not just incorporate it in Reanimator. You are trying to resolve Buried Alive and then Animate it ... thats turn 4 with your draft at the earliest! The deck needs Dark Ritual, Mox/Petal or Ancient Tomb to speed it up. Also the problem in G2/3 is that you have to get rid of Crypt/Relic because you cant go off with entomb in response to them cracking it as Reanimator does.

EDIT: and maybe cutting the Careful Study for Ponder because it is higly unlikely to draw all three pieces and discard them this way and it is too much card disadvantage for us if we want (we probably do) to play Chrome Mox.

Then obviously we cut SnT and get a deck dependant on resolving 3cc and 1/2cc spell, very vulnerable to grave hate. Doesnt seem worth the effort.

[Cire]

Hows this list?

17 Lands

Draw/Search Power
4 Brainstorm
4 Lim-Dûl's Vault
2 Ponder
2 Personal Tutor

Combo
4 Reanimate
4 Buried Alive
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Triskelion

Control
4 Thought seize
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
2 Duress

Acceleration
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

Has a lot of protect, decent amount of draw and tutelage power some acceleration..should go off around turn 3...

[addaro]

Yeah Im trying 17 lands, 4 rits and 4 Petals too and it feels like too much actually. 4 Personal Tutor is a must. Trying Ancient Tomb and Top.

EDIT:

1 Island
2 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Dark Ritual
3 Lotus Petal

1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will

4 Exhume
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
4 Personal Tutor

This is fast and stable at the same time but needs to fight grave hate, cant switch to SnT backup plan :( So Pithing Needle in SB, or green splash.

[Meekrab]

Paging Killing Joke, a brand new Legacy deck that anybody who's been remotely serious about the format for more than 6 months only has to buy 2 new cards for. (I mean, unless you have a Phyrexian Devourer in your jank bin, then probably just 1 card.)

I'm kinda pumped to have a use for my Korean BB 4th Edition Trike.

[sco0ter]

I will try it in Survival probably. Something like this might be playable, though I'd like to have more creatures with activated abilities.


// 15
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Aether Vial
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy

// 24
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Shriekmaw
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Necrotic Ooze

// 21
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Bayou
5 Forest

[Atwa]

I'm kinda pumped to have a use for my Korean BB 4th Edition Trike.

I got the main combo sans the Ooze in Korean :)

I am going to test this thing out, I bought a lot of 15 Devourers for .50 total some while back. Time to make a profit!

[rufus]

This is fast and stable at the same time but needs to fight grave hate, cant switch to SnT backup plan :( So Pithing Needle in SB, or green splash.

Against everyhing that doesn't replace goes to the grave (i.e. not Lleyline) and isn't split second (Extirpate), you can use the 'solidarity work-around' - hardcast Ooze, and then going off at instant speed after the Buried Alive.

[troopatroop]

I just bought 40 Devourers. Hooray, lets hope this works.

[Cire]

Yeah Im trying 17 lands, 4 rits and 4 Petals too and it feels like too much actually. 4 Personal Tutor is a must. Trying Ancient Tomb and Top.



Yeah i figured that i can drop 1 more land, and replace 1 of the vaults (seriously put them in they're great) and put in two more personal tutors.

Top seems to slow, and redundant with so much draw. and i tried 4 ancient tomb but it kept screwing me with color issues.other than that i suggest you try my version only because playing so much protection 6 counters and 6 discard is fun as hell

[addaro]

Cire: yeah I know. I have tried many variations since yesterday. Top is not that great, my version posted here was very light on protection and LDV is bonkers when you need to find that Force or "restart" the game.

[Mr.C]

I just bought 40 Devourers. Hooray, lets hope this works.

Don't expect too much. It would be a one-of in one deck.

[troopatroop]

Don't expect too much. It would be a one-of in one deck.

if they jump to a dollar, I more than double my money. Seemed safe at the time.

[Maëlig]

How is this better than simply splashing white and playing retainers + iona? This combo takes more slots, is slower with shaman (2 creatures to discard) and more expensive.

[kiblast]

if they jump to a dollar, I more than double my money. Seemed safe at the time.

That doesn't make sense. But i'm going to buy some, just in case.^^

[Atwa]

Even if they go up to 0.25, I'll keep a playset and made a 2.25 profit :)

[troopatroop]

It interests me, because it's a rare! But you'll only ever need one copy. I think there's no way it pulls a Force of Will, but it could go to 5$ Pretty please? Buy them all up and we're really cementing our investment together! :P

[SpikeyMikey]

This seems only marginally better than Volrath's Shapeshifter and FEB. It's not vulnerable to creature removal (big +) but it requires moving into black (not exciting). I don't see it being good enouugh to rock the format.

[alderon666]

This instantly winz as opposed to Iona which can be raced, removed, etc.

[TheCramp]

you have to flip 20 one drops, or 10 two drops to burn someone out. When you subtract mana, and the combo cards themselves, one wants to make sure the deck is designed such that this is guarenteed everytime. will one jitti hit fuck up the math? want about a lightning helix? etc. Perhaps in a CotV shell, with moxen, tombs, and Raise Dead (-1/-0) as the primary reanimation spell. You could then flip up three drops and be golden. If you went with shallow grave and corpse dance you could use something which was a tap ability. kiki jiki and devoted druid for example.

[alderon666]

you have to flip 20 one drops, or 10 two drops to burn someone out. When you subtract mana, and the combo cards themselves, one wants to make sure the deck is designed such that this is guarenteed everytime. will one jitti hit fuck up the math? want about a lightning helix? etc. Perhaps in a CotV shell, with moxen, tombs, and Raise Dead (-1/-0) as the primary reanimation spell. You could then flip up three drops and be golden. If you went with shallow grave and corpse dance you could use something which was a tap ability. kiki jiki and devoted druid for example.

That seems not like a problem at all. Even Ad Nauseam decks that tried having the lowest average CMC had something like 1.0 average not counting lands.

You can also run stuff like Shriekmaw that add a lot to the mana cost and can still be Evoked.

[dahcmai]

I wouldn't count on that card going up too much. I have several hundred. It wasn't hard to pack it back then. It's the rare right next to Urza's Engine. Anyone who played when Alliances was out has a million. It sucked since you got like 6 of those to a box next to 13 of the stupid Urza's engine. It's like an R12. there were 4 of those in Alliances. They might as well have been commons.


It is nice to finally see a use for it after all these years though. That card has been horrid forever.

[Atwa]

I wouldn't count on that card going up too much. I have several hundred. It wasn't hard to pack it back then. It's the rare right next to Urza's Engine. Anyone who played when Alliances was out has a million. It sucked since you got like 6 of those to a box next to 13 of the stupid Urza's engine. It's like an R12. there were 4 of those in Alliances. They might as well have been commons.


It is nice to finally see a use for it after all these years though. That card has been horrid forever.

Oh well, Wasteland was an uncommon in a set which has seen way more print. It doesn't really matter to me, most people in my local store only have cards from newer sets, so I can ask anything I want for these older obscure cards (within reason off course).

[addaro]

So what do you think? Will this deck be any good? (I mean the reanimator like build) Just asking if I should order the cards or not ...

[(nameless one)]

I think at the end of all this, Necrotic Ooze.dec will be just a budget version of Reanimator.

The way I see it, its good as a mono-black combo deck. Possibly, have Tombstalker as a back up win.

That or you can try to fit this in a Breakfast deck and have a new win-con.

Its definitely interesting in Standard (paired with Fauna Shaman)

[caenel]

The way I see it, its good as a mono-black combo deck. Possibly, have Tombstalker as a back up win.

Funny you should say this, I had that same thought myself. Going mono-black.
The next thing that popped my mind was that traditional BU Reanimator is way stronger than this one, since it seems to suffer from the same problems that Hulk Reanimator is suffering from. By playing this kill you open yourself up to a wider array of answers and you are playing less viable 'stand alone' Reanimator targets. When I reanimate something, I basically want something that can hold its ground about 90% of the time (Iona/Inkwell/Sphinx/Archon) without having to depend on other factors.

Just a crazy thought from me, but would this be possible as a kill in a Pox shell? Pox gives you hand and board control/disruption, allowing you to play the slower game. My plan would be to rape their hand/board a bit first, then go for the Buried Alive/Reanimate kill. Tombstalker can even be played as a backup kill condition. Here is the list I'll be testing for this idea (OK, no mono-black, I splashed green here):


// Lands
4 Bayou
3 Mishra's Factory
7 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

// Artifacts
1 Phyrexian Devourer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Triskelion

// Black
3 Buried Alive
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
1 Necrotic Ooze
2 Pox
4 Reanimate
4 Smallpox
3 Tombstalker

// Mulitcolor
3 Pernicious Deed


Some card choices to explain here. I didn't want to go the land destruction route with Sinkhole as I have learned it is almost impossible to fight on 3 fronts with Pox lists. I go for pure board and hand control. With that setup, I hope to have enough time to either beat the opponent to death with Tombstalker or find Buried Alive and Reanimate to go for the kill. Reanimate is not a dead card on its own either, since it can bring back creatures from the opponents graveyard as well (you pack a lot of discard/sacrifice effects). Pernicious Deed is mainly in to clear the board of 'hate' cards before you go off (Humility, Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, ...). Other 'hate' (counters, creature removal, ...) should be taken care of with your discard spells.

As I said, I don't know how this will go as I'm just brainstorming here, but I don't see an improvement to a Reanimator list happening with this combo. But please, prove me wrong.

[whienot]

That or you can try to fit this in a Breakfast deck and have a new win-con.

I thought about this, but unfortunately you have to have a library with ~20 1cc cards in it to win. Not that plausible in Cephalid Breakfast.

[Volrath]

I thought about this, but unfortunately you have to have a library with ~20 1cc cards in it to win. Not that plausible in Cephalid Breakfast.

2 CMC works to, you know.

[nedleeds]

Avatar of Woe + Eater of the Dead :/

Infernal Denizen seems to lose his draw back. There are also a bunch of cards that say put a -1/-1 counter on this man, uptap him.

[whienot]

2 CMC works to, you know.

My point remains. Devourer/Triskelion will not reliably work in Cephalid Breakfast due to library constraints.

[frenchy-man]

I just bought 40 Devourers. Hooray, lets hope this works.

I was just told that the combo have had an errata and does not work anymore. But nice try of speculation ;)

[perm]

I was just told that the combo have had an errata and does not work anymore. But nice try of speculation ;)

How?

[bleuisforwhimps]

Why does everyone want triskelion/devourer in here? Isn't kiki-jiki/mogg fanatic better? Because in the worst case the fanatic can be hardcast to chump or something .

[Pneumatiker]

Why does everyone want triskelion/devourer in here? Isn't kiki-jiki/mogg fanatic better? Because in the worst case the fanatic can be hardcast to chump or something .

The reason is that Buried Alivee -> Necrotic Ooze + Triskelion + Phyrexian Devourer , Reanimate -> Necrotic Ooze wins imediatly whereas Buried Alive -> Necrotic Ooze + Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Mogg Fanatic, Reanimate -> Necrotic Ooze doesn't because the Necrotic Ooze doesn't have haste.

[martyr]

Shallow Grave?

[perm]

If they orim's chant, you lose your wincon to exile. Why not just win immediately with trisk devourer?

[bleuisforwhimps]

Reading is tech,so activated abilities only then. My bad.

[RexFTW]

FYI

Oracle text:

When Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it.

Exile the top card of your library: Put X +1/+1 counters on Phyrexian Devourer, where X is the exiled card's converted mana cost. If Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it.

[perm]

FYI

Oracle text:

When Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it.

Exile the top card of your library: Put X +1/+1 counters on Phyrexian Devourer, where X is the exiled card's converted mana cost. If Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it.

You can stack it so it doesn't happen, read the thread. That's why it occurs also as a state based effect outside of the activated ability

[alderon666]

My point remains. Devourer/Triskelion will not reliably work in Cephalid Breakfast due to library constraints.

You can add one Emrakul to the decks and just loop until you get the right combination of card in the grave. That somehow also allows you to fight Crypts and Relics? (realized this as I was writing)

Oh, it doesn't because they can wait until you cast the reanimation spell and crack it. It should work if you play a Ancient Grudge though.

[whienot]

You can add one Emrakul to the decks and just loop until you get the right combination of card in the grave.

Awesome idea, but it won't work for tournament play (unless you're a Jedi). See this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18590-Is-a-45-minute-kill-too-long).

The applicable part:


A guideline is that if you're taking 30 seconds or more to do nothing but mill and shuffle (ie, not advancing the gamestate), you're in the realm of Slow Play.

[jam3sbob]

anybody read the ben bleiweiss article on scg?


Necrotic Ooze
Current Price: $2
Projected Price (one month from now): $2.50-$3

Thoughts: This guy is really good, but repeat after me: Not a combo with Phyrexian Devourer!

Current Phyrexian Devourer Oracle Text:

When Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it.
Exile the top card of your library: Put X +1/+1 counters on Phyrexian Devourer, where X is the exiled card's converted mana cost. If Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it.

Under the current Oracle wording, the sacrifice is both static and part of the activated ability. Therefore, Necrotic Ooze cannot get arbitrarily large if it's copying the ability of a Devourer.

did he get it wrong?

[Jander78]

anybody read the ben bleiweiss article on scg?



did he get it wrong?
Yes he did. You Exile as part of the Devourer's activation cost, if you see the card you've exiled is going to make the Ooze larger than 7 power, Exile again in response.

[jam3sbob]

ah i see, maybe he didn't add triskelion to the combo equation hehe

[Janos_Wuryon]

uh doesnt a single pithing needle wreck this whole idea?

iwhile in thoery its still a solid engine id think its easy to hate out of existance

[Atwa]

uh doesnt a single pithing needle wreck this whole idea?

iwhile in thoery its still a solid engine id think its easy to hate out of existance

This is pretty much true, however there are lots of ways to work around this, like splasing green. I preordered a playset and I'll start toying around with it a little. I'd love to play around in Standard with it a little, since I fear the combo is to fragile to run in Legacy (and Standard loses Needle), but worst case scenario, I can always try to build a reanimator style EDH deck with it.

[perm]

anybody read the ben bleiweiss article on scg?



did he get it wrong?
If he's talking about actually swinging with the ooze getting ridiculously large with only devourer, he is correct. You can't swing with it, because it will be sacrificed before damage can be dealt. But if you are pinging with trisk's ability, it works.

[TsumiBand]

The trick people are missing is that the exiled card is part of the cost, not the actual ability, which is obviously paid before the ability resolves or you even pass priority to resolve it, so you get to decide whether or not that ability is going to resolve. So you go, "hmmm k i'll flip the top car - WHOAMG ITS PHTHISIS, how the fuck did that happen it's a one-of! Oh well, ability on the stack, I'm not dumb enough to pass priority so I'll just pay it again... oh hey it's a nice friendly Careful Study, thank fucking god. I'll just let that resolve and I'll ping you, then I'll activate again...

[rufus]

For the Cephalid Breakfast route, you could put a lemure in the deck and use it's ability to send the ooze's power to negative 10,000, emrakul recycle 'till you get devourer and triskie in the graveyard, and then plink with everything. It might take a couple of times through, but it's not a 'once in a blue moon' scenario. Not sure that it's any better than the alternatives though.

[Odd Mutation]

If Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it.

Does this even matter? It's Necrotic Ooze that gets bigger, not Phyrexian Devourer. Doesn't the ability check by name of the card? Necrotic Ooze doesn't copy the cards, only the abilities...

Robrecht

[Pneumatiker]

From the rules forum:


Whenever a card refers to itself using its name, it always means "this object" regardless of its actual card name.

[Janos_Wuryon]

Despite the needle flaw there are several ways to win with the ooze beside trisk. Any card in the yard that gives haste. Ie haste or allow for you to swing for lethal as would any sac abiltity its worth experimenting with either way. I remember all the its fragile talk with protean hulk and that did ok I hear

[heroicraptor]

Does this even matter? It's Necrotic Ooze that gets bigger, not Phyrexian Devourer. Doesn't the ability check by name of the card? Necrotic Ooze doesn't copy the cards, only the abilities...

Robrecht

Necrotic Ooze only copies activated abilities.

[ivanpei]

I posted this on the survival thread:

"EDIT: Oh And I just read the necrotic ooze combo with triskelion + phyrexian devourer. Venge survival imo is now strictly worse than ooze combo. Necrotic ooze combo is autowin for 7 mana with just 3 slots. IMO there is absolutely no reason to play venge combo now unless you can't afford the black splash. I still prefer the 5 mana iona combo though. Its often a whole turn faster (just 5 mana), takes up one less slot and is easier to splash (single white is much easier compared to double black)."

Thoughts? This should pretty much phase out venge survival unless people still want to stick to UG madness esque survival. I posted why venge is bad on the survival thread. So the discussion I want to spur is Iona vs ooze. Which do you prefer?