[Deck] Next Level Threshold

[Jim Higginbottom]

Then they just do it again next turn? They will land a bog eventually.

And they lose a land each time...seems good.

[jeanbathez]

Hi to to all in this thread, finally i played the deck for the first time last weekend in a small tourney to get a feeling for it :
I fallowed chinEsE girl advices and played his main with cutting 1 fire/ice for the 3ed clique

and his SB :
3 Spell Pierce
2 REB
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mind Harness
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

First Round 1 : Dredge : 2:0
Yeah winning game 1 against dredge, that was fun, but thats the reason why i don't play dredge it isn't steady.

2. Round : Ubw Dreadnought : 2:0
Clique wins game 1 and game 2 with the help of a reb

3. Round : MUD 2:0
Not much to say here, game 1 clique and Jace ; game 2 Null Rod

4. Round Canadian : 0:2
Both games his Nimble Mongoose won him the game.
Game 1 I resolved a clique and saw 3 spell snare and thought ok my tarmos won't resolve any time soon. I got him down to 6 but then i'am out of stuff, his first Mongoose met a EE, but the second went all the way
Game 2 : I tried a jace with force backup and 1 mana open, but he had the reb, and my force met his second reb. I snare his goyfs he mine, and finally he resolves a mongoose and my loam came to late...
My SB plan was out 4 Bolts 2 Fire and ice : IN 1 crypt, 1 relic, 1 loam, 1 Mind harness, 2 Reb

So at first thank you guys for developing this deck it was fun to play, and finally luck was on my side i opened my booster and a foil Sword of Feast and Famine was in there - nice ;-)

But one question to the experienced players with this deck, how to play the canadian matchup and was my boarding plan ok ?

[Chikenbok]

Hi to to all in this thread, finally i played the deck for the first time last weekend in a small tourney to get a feeling for it :
I fallowed chinEsE girl advices and played his main with cutting 1 fire/ice for the 3ed clique

and his SB :
3 Spell Pierce
2 REB
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mind Harness
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

First Round 1 : Dredge : 2:0
Yeah winning game 1 against dredge, that was fun, but thats the reason why i don't play dredge it isn't steady.

2. Round : Ubw Dreadnought : 2:0
Clique wins game 1 and game 2 with the help of a reb

3. Round : MUD 2:0
Not much to say here, game 1 clique and Jace ; game 2 Null Rod

4. Round Canadian : 0:2
Both games his Nimble Mongoose won him the game.
Game 1 I resolved a clique and saw 3 spell snare and thought ok my tarmos won't resolve any time soon. I got him down to 6 but then i'am out of stuff, his first Mongoose met a EE, but the second went all the way
Game 2 : I tried a jace with force backup and 1 mana open, but he had the reb, and my force met his second reb. I snare his goyfs he mine, and finally he resolves a mongoose and my loam came to late...
My SB plan was out 4 Bolts 2 Fire and ice : IN 1 crypt, 1 relic, 1 loam, 1 Mind harness, 2 Reb

So at first thank you guys for developing this deck it was fun to play, and finally luck was on my side i opened my booster and a foil Sword of Feast and Famine was in there - nice ;-)

But one question to the experienced players with this deck, how to play the canadian matchup and was my boarding plan ok ?

So its been a while since I posted in here, the reason being I've switched back to Straight OG Canadian Thresh. Its more punishing to a bad player, and more rewarding to something who knows how to play it.

Also note on mongoose, he always gets there.

[sourcefire]

I played the Eric English list in a small local tournament tonight. Altered the sideboard a little, but the main deck was mostly the same. Finished 3-1 and in 3rd place.

Round 1: affinity with masters but no tezz.
Game1: I bolt an early thopter with a plating, but he swings with double plating on a signal pest on turn 3 and I don't have the removal.
Game2: he keeps a slow hand and I waste his first two land and then lavamancer and collar take over the game. Etched champion came out, but with a needle on plating he wasn't a big threat. Clique swung 7 times.
Game3: i keep a hand of 2 ancient grudge, 2 land, force, force, brainstorm. He drew 8 or 9 straight land off the top and was never really in it.

Round 2: cephalid breakfast.
Game1: I burn an en-kor with fire/ice, but he has the force for my bolt on the 2nd en-kor. He mills his deck and dread return is 2nd card from the bottom. He has out en-kor, illusionist and 2 narcos (one must have been stuck in his hand) so he can only therapy once (for force) and I stifle the trigger on karmic guide when he dread returns it. 2/2 flyer doesn't get there with only 1 draw step left.
Game2: totally punt this game by not wasting a tropical island. He tutors for dryad arbor and casts natural order for progenitus. I only had 3 land out and he had 5+, so I felt it was better to keep the waste for mana...it occured to me that a second green would make NO mana, but i didnt think breakfast ran the sideboard NO plan....whoops.
Game3: I stick an early lavamancer and sit on multiple bolts and fire/ice for his guys. He cant get the combo to stick or the double green for NO. Lavamancer pokes him to death after i have a hand of counters, burn and llawan for progenitus.

Round3: junk
Game1: I get greedy and keep a 1 land hand with stifle, bolt, bs and snare. He plays scrubland, mox diamond, top. Next turn hymn me and continue to bash me with goyfs. Not close.
Game2: he plays out 2 bobs and manages to flip a bunch of 3 drops in a row (deed, vindicate, knight). Between bobs and fetches, he deals himself enough that i sit back and play defense until he is at 2 and dies to bolt.
Game3: I drop 2 goyfs, he drops goyf and knight. Then he plays deed and blows up the board other than his 6/6 knight. He has a maelstrom pulse but it doesn't matter since i can't draw mind harness or sower and did to knight.

This is the second week in a row that I drop a match to junk in 3 games. I'm not sure how to get an edge here as this just seems like a tough matchup.

Round 4: Merfolk
Game 1: lavamancer and collar come online early and that is all she wrote.
Game 2: he keeps a greedy hand with mutavault with vial. I keep a hand with lavamancer, bolt, firespout, fire/ice. I explosives away 2 vials when he is on one land and eventually llawan comes down for the scoop.

The deck is powerful and fun to play. Affinity game 1 is rough is they have any decent kind of hand, but plenty of sideboard options to make games 2 and 3 better. Merfolk is a matchup I would play every round if i could and the breakfast matchup seems good, lots of cards to keeo them off their combo cards. Junk on the other hand seems pretty rough and I'm not sure how best to improve the matchup. Cheers to Eric English for the list, it's definitely fun.

[greater_maro]

Played today a small tournament with 5 rounds of swiss and top8.. Swiss went 3-1-1 (ID to make the cut). Winning UW "cawblade" Tempo, UWb WishLandstill, UW ThopterControl and Losing to zenith bant. At top8 lost to that UW Thopter with baddraws and opponent had CBalance out and revealed twice blindfolded (5CMC for FoW and 4CMC to Jace..bah) Allthough I fell that deck is really good, I have had real big troubles against bant. If I don't counter or burn his guys fast or counter NO, we can't do nothing.

Have people had trouble against Zenith bant with NOProgenitus? I think that Hibernation is our only option with these colors. If we add like 1 Tundra we could get sb option like Tariff which is also an answer to Emrakul.. Tell me your thoughts!

[Stifle]

Hey guys, I've been playing this archetype for the past few weeks now and I'm looking to take this to a respectable finish in the West Coast since CBTop is not viable for now.

I went 2 - 3 today, punting really hard on matchups that I could have and should have won.

Round 1 (Dredge)

Game 1: I get an early goyf out with an EE at 0 and a Basilisk Collar but my opponent dredges into Flame-Kin Zealot and has just enough damage to push through for lethal.

+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Firespout
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Relic of Progenitus

-4 Stifle
-2 Vendilion Clique
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Game 2: My opponent mulls and keeps a questionable hand while I'm rocking steady with tempo plays and eventually stablilize with a goyf + counter and burn spells in hand.

Game 3: Opponent mulls down to 5 cards and has a turn 1 Tireless Tribe that I can't answer seeing as how I don't have a Force in hand. I play an early Lavamancer in which I am forced to shoot himself a few turns later because his graveyard had 2 bridges. Eventually we're in a situation where my opponent has zero lands and tireless tribe in play with a bunch of dredgers and Ichorid in the grave. I topdeck into a Jace and decide to bounce his Tireless Tribe. This was a huge mistake on my end when I should have just brainstormed and hoped to dig for a Trinket Mage or a hate piece. This play eventually ends up costing me the game as I draw into dead cards and my opponent proceeds to beat me down with zombie tokens.

1 - 2

Round 2 (Infect - Draft deck)

I don't think I need to go into detail here. His cards weren't even sleeved.

2 - 0

Round 3 (Painter Grindstone)

Game 1: On the early game we play a few turns of land go while I blow up two of his Goblin Welders. He eventually stablilizes his grindstones and catches me off guard with a Painter's Servant when I'm tapped out. He goes off with grindstone the next turn.

+3 Pyroblast
+1 Pithing Needle

-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Basilisk Collar
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Game 2: We played a few turns of land-go while I dropped a Grim Lavamancer and Goyf with mana up. I made a huge mistake this game in deciding to take out Basilisk Collar against him because I already knew he had the Show and Tell / Emrakul plan sideboarded in. So when I force of willed (pitching Trinket Mage) Show and Tell while he countered back, I slapped myself mentally and made a note to never take out collar against Emrakul decks again.

0 - 2

Round 4 (Imperial Painter)

Game 1: He played a bunch of cantrips and attempted to stick a Goblin Welder & Painter's Servant which all met burn spells fairly quickly. I eventually stabilized with Goyf, a Basilisk Collar and a Jace TMS. The latter providing the bounce spells to push through enough damage with goyf.

+3 Spell Pierce
+1 Pithing Needle

-4 Stifle

Game 2: He played a bunch of fetches with a bunch of cantrips and kept digging for stuff while I pounced him with wastelands, counters and Goyf.

2 - 0

Round 5: (Merfolk with Stoneforge Mystic)

Game 1: 2 Grim Lavamancers go to work this game and proceed to blow him out while I eventually take the game with an unanswered Goyf.

+3 Pyroblast
+2 Firespout
+2 Krosan Grip
+1 Pithing Needle

-4 Stifle
-2 Jace, TMS
-2 Ponder
-1 Vendilion Clique

Game 2:We both mull down to six. I punt very badly in this matchup because I stabilized with Grim Lavamancer while he had 2 Aether Vials out. My opponent had a 2/2 Coralhelm Commander out and I shoot it down with Lavamancer but he vials in Kira and we're both under the impression that Lavamancer's ability fizzles as a result when this is not the case at all. I was actually sitting on firespout but I was being greedy with Grim Lavamancer. These mishaps end up costing me the game as he pumps up Coralhelm Commander to a 4/4 and proceeds to dwindle me down to zero.

Game 3: I keep a pretty questionable hand with no Grim Lavamancer or much backup. We play a long game of attrition until I get Basilisk Collar, Trinket Mage and a Vendilion Clique on my side while he has a Stoneforge Mystic, two Silvergill Adepts, and a Mutavault. I cast a Goyf and my opponent casts a Lord of Atlantis during his turn with 2 colorless up. I have 2 Volcanic Islands open with a Fire // Ice in hand. I was definitely not thinking straight because for some reason I decide to tap out and cast Fire on his turn. He dazes me and has me for lethal the turn after.

1 - 2

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All in all, today was a learning experience and I felt really shitty after my last round seeing as how I practically died to daze. Still, this is a very powerful deck and today was a clear example of the pilot letting the deck down. I am going to learn from these mistakes and hopefully, this deck will teach me to become a better tempo player in the near future.

[chinEsE girl]

Guess it's time to return to the thread and see what's going on. I'm glad to see that the majority or people are having success with the deck, it feels good to see others also having success with the deck. I'll try to adders some of the questions asking in the last week or two.

About the junk matchup, it's something that I've tried to solve, but the more I look at it or play against the deck, it just seems that it's just a rough matchup. It sucks that junk is such a forgiving deck, since they van net topdeck knight against us and get ahead all of the sudden without much
planning. In my opinion though, junk is not a large enough portion of the metagame to worry about it so actively. Especially with the rise of combo over the past couple of weeks, junk has gotten worse, which in turn helps to make our deck better. If you want to tailor your sideboard tonbeating junk,
put in more control magic effects. I know my friend personally boards 4 such effects (2 gilded drakes and 2 mind harness) but I've been ok so far with boarding a 1-1 split.

The other thing I wanted to ask everyone who has played the deck is what your opinion of trinket mage is. One of my friends who travels with me and plays NLT doesn't like trinket mage at all, and has since taken the package out and put in some spell pierces. He's also put the factory and crucible plan back in, but I've fond that to be slow and ineffective in the current metagame, but he just really like factory. I just want to hear some other opinions from people about whether they liked playing with trinket mage or not. Personally, I love the flexibility it gives you, as well as giving you maindeck outs to random problem permanents (it kind of sucks that you can't get to 4 counters to deal with planeswalkers and humility or moat, but you can still beat them with those permanents in play). For me, the ability to get collar and quickly put away aggro matchups is a great effects that ugr doesn't usually get. The fact that mage also means you're effectively running extra copies of graveyard hate is a plus with all of the graveyard based decks loping up, especially dredge.

Also, for anybody going to SCG Boston, I'll be there so if you want to feel free to track me down and ask me anything about the deck, I'd be more than happy to help. Plus if you stick around you'll get me in the top 8, and that's a guarantee.

[Plague Sliver]

I tested Trinket Mage in the build and wasn't too impressed. I think about it this way - he costs 3 mana! Jace costs 4...for one more you get the planeswalker who swings games on his own.

I always found myself at a loss for mana when I play the Mage. I have to wait until next turn and broadcast exactly what I'm going to play next, whether it be a collar or Explosives. And he acts like a really expensive E-Tutor that fogs. It'd be great to play E-Tutor, but that's stretching the mana base a little, I think. It doesn't feel like a good tempo play at all.

I wonder if it may be better to run Pierces maindeck and keep Mage in the board if necessary to grab one-ofs? Pierce is so good right now. It helps vs. Hymn and more importantly GSZ. I'm having trouble fighting the attrition battle against Bant decks w/ GSZ right now, and in a vacuum I'm in a toss-up between this build and Bant. I love the bolts but I feel the deck needs to be more tempo and less Trinket Mage.

Take my opinion for what it's worth... however I am really passionate about this deck and feel like this is the one to bring to the Grand Prix.

[sourcefire]

I played this list again in our weekly local last night - although I made a couple changes to the main and sideboard.

I upped the Vendilion Clique count to 3 and dropped a Fire//Ice as has been previously discussed in this thread. I also added maindeck Pithing Needle and Relic of Progenitus to give the Trinket Mage package a little more utility. To make room, I think I dropped a Jace and a Spell Snare (running 1 and 2 of each, respectively).

Sideboard was:
1 K Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
1 REB
2 Firespout
2 Spell Pierce
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Llawan
2 Submerge
1 Mind Harness
1 Sower of Temptation

The local meta usually has multiple affinity and merfolk decks, so there is some extra hate for those decks.

Round 1: Excaliber (2-1)

Game 1: I draw a Wasteland heavy grip and we have 1 or 2 lands each on turn 6. Unfortunately he gets a clique with a jitte online and I can't find anymore gas.

Game 2: I run out a lavamancer and he tries to fetch a dryad arbor to block when I swing and his land gets bolted. Same thing happens next turn and I have a lavamancer and 3 land while he is stuck on 1 land. I believe Clique comes down and I get there attacking for 4 a turn.

Game 3: He drops 2 goyfs pretty early. I have lavamancer who has a pithing needle on him. I trinket mage for EE@2 and trade the EE for 2 goyfs and a SSS. Eventually I grudge the needle and a SoFaI and start beating with a Clique wearing a Collar. He clears my creatures and we play draw go looking for a threat. I draw my 1 of sower and hold on to it. He draws and plays his sower. I take his flyer with mine and they get there.

Round 2: Pyromancer's Ascension (2-0)

Game 1: He mentions something about playing combo and leads with Island, Ponder. I put him on some kind of storm and leave open stifle and spell snare. He cantrips some more and eventually I clique him, sending an ascension to the bottom. I spell snare another ascension and trinket mage for my main deck relic of progenitus. He intuitions for the last 3 ascensions, but can't get it into play through my counters. He scoops when 4 ascensions are in the gy and I have a large goyf.

Game 2: I keep a hand of spell snare, spell pierce, k grip and REB. I get relic online again and start attacking with a goyf. I made a minor misplay when I let him resolve a ascension, get a counter with a second ponder and then try to cast a second preordain. I pop relic in response, forgetting that the counter still goes on the ascension since the preordain was in the gy when the second was cast. It wouldn't have been a huge deal since I had 2 goyfs in play, but now both were 1/2s since the relic removed everything except the preordain. He started to do things with ascension, but luckily he was on 4 and when he fetched, I had a bolt to kill him.

Round 3: Affinity (2-1)

Game 1: Kept a 6 card hand on the draw with bolt, Fire//Ice and land. Not much going on, but I didn't want to go to 5. He plays ornithopter, memnite, signal pest on turn 1. He plays plating on turn 2 and swings for 3 with his robots. I bolt the ornithopter and the Fire the pest and memnite the next turn when he tries to equip the plating. I pithing needle the plating and waste his blue source so he can't cast Masters. Clique swings 7 times.

Game 2: I keep a hand full of great sideboard cards, unfortunately he has a hand with 2 plating and I get too low before I remove his threats. I take a Galvanic blast in the face. 4 damage lightning bolts are good.

Game 3: Both ancient grudges show up and I get to REB a Master. This seems like a pretty good matchup after boarding as long as they don't have the nut-double plating-draw

There is only 1 other 3-0 player running storm (Lax ANT with grim tutors I believe) so we draw and split the credit for 1st and 2nd place.

I'm so-so on the trinket mage package, sometimes it's great (grabbing relic in the pyro ascension match) and sometimes it's just a little slow. Letting them know what you're grabbing is definitely a drawback. I do like having the 4 targets maindeck since you're less likely to run out of things to grab (which definitely happened when I was just running Collar/EE). Relic can usually cycle (and if you can't cycle it it's because you have goyf and/or lavamancer and you're probably ahead anyway) and pithing needle almost always has a target to name. I do worry about it taking up too much room in the maindeck and not just playing stronger cards (e.g. Jace). I'm probably going to run this at some GP Trials coming up (I love the merfolk matchup and I just need to dodge Junk, which I am 0-3 against) although I have NOpro as a backup plan.

The plan for Junk is currently Mind Harness (and Sower), Submerges and Relic, but I'm open to more suggestions if anyone has any.

[Tammit67]

I played this list again in our weekly local last night - although I made a couple changes to the main and sideboard.

I'm probably going to run this at some GP Trials coming up (I love the merfolk matchup and I just need to dodge Junk, which I am 0-3 against) although I have NOpro as a backup plan.

The plan for Junk is currently Mind Harness (and Sower), Submerges and Relic, but I'm open to more suggestions if anyone has any.

I'm surprised you ran it last night considering that Junk shows up every week (except this week). Also surprised you didn't hit any of the 4 merfolk players.

Hope to see you there next week

[jeanbathez]

The other thing I wanted to ask everyone who has played the deck is what your opinion of trinket mage is. One of my friends who travels with me and plays NLT doesn't like trinket mage at all, and has since taken the package out and put in some spell pierces. He's also put the factory and crucible plan back in, but I've fond that to be slow and ineffective in the current metagame, but he just really like factory. I just want to hear some other opinions from people about whether they liked playing with trinket mage or not. Personally, I love the flexibility it gives you, as well as giving you maindeck outs to random problem permanents (it kind of sucks that you can't get to 4 counters to deal with planeswalkers and humility or moat, but you can still beat them with those permanents in play). For me, the ability to get collar and quickly put away aggro matchups is a great effects that ugr doesn't usually get. The fact that mage also means you're effectively running extra copies of graveyard hate is a plus with all of the graveyard based decks loping up, especially dredge.

I also like the flexibility it gives. Finding that explosives or collar was helpful in a lot of games. And it gets better in the games after SBing (i allways get those dredgedecks ;-) ) - The only "problem" i have, in some of the games before SBing, i draw the targets naturally, or don't need that second target, so sometimes i wish i had more targets, that would make it easier, but there isn't room, in my old CB-lists i was allways able to search up top.

[NesretepNoj]

I ran the deck (same list as E. English' SCG list (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37041) except -1 Null Rod, -1 Gilded Drake, +1 Mind Harness, +1 Sower of Temptation in the SB) for the first time yesterday. The result was a follows:

Round one vs. Opal Affinity (without Tezz): 2-1

Game One: He had a fast start, but I stabalized at three, but I wasn't able to handle an Ethed Champion.

Game Two: Armed Lavamancer (B. Collar) + Jace.

Game Three: Lots of removal > small guys.

SB: -4 Stifle, +2 Krosan Grip, +2 Firespout.

1-0
2-1


Round two vs. Enlightend Lands: 1-0

Game One: Lavamancer deals about 20 damage through Zuran Orb. EE on Ensnaring Bridge, Stilfe and Waste on two Mazes got me through after 45 minutes of play back and forth. Basic lands FTW and he didn't drew a single Loam.

2-0
3-1

Round three vs. Gerry Thompson's BUG: 2-0

Game One: Killed his Confidants and Goyfs (blocking my own goyf) with Fire.

Game Two: Once again I focused on killing his Confidants, this time also mana screwing him with Stifle/Waste.

SB: -4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Jace, tMS, +1 Sower of Temptation, +1 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +3 Spell Pierce (should probably have been +2 Jace, tMS, -2 FoW).

3-0
5-1

Round four vs. R Goblins: 0-2 We desided to split, but both of us was there to test, so we played it out for fun.

Game One: He totally rolled me drawing Vial plus double Lackey.

Game Two: I sort of stabilized with two 3/4 Goyfs. However, two Ringleaders later drawing him eight goblins (among them two Incinerators), he rolled me again. I don't think this is such a bad matchup. He admitted himself, that he drew the stone cold nuts, so with a bit of testing and maybe adding an extra Firespout to the board, I think I'll be fine.

SB: -3 Spell Snare, +2 Firespout, +1 Mind Harness.

3-1
5-3

Random notes

- The mana base rocks. The basic mountain is really good. I didn't play against Merfolks, but haven played 4CCounterbalance before, I know it's good.

- Grim Lavamanacer is really good. Against decks, where he is not the greatest card, he does however add an element of inevitability.

- The EE was insane. Blew it three times yesterday; first time I blew five artifacts against Affinity, second time against Affinity again, I blew a Ravager and a Plating with no other creatures on the field, third time it blew an Ensnaring Bridge.

- I'm not completely sold on the Trinket Mage, but it warrents further testing.

- The sideboard in this deck adds an incredible amount of flexibility. I used almost all cards yesterday.

- Fire/Ice is simply awesome.

[Tammit67]

Goblins should be much easier than that, but cool report!

[sourcefire]

Couple quick tournament reports:

Both events were played with the stock list, except with Pithing Needle and Relic maindeck (-1 spell snare, -1 Jace)

4/16 GP:Trial at Lock Haven, PA

Round 1: New Horizons.
Game 1: We take turns ruining each other's mana base. Once we are both stuck on 2 land, I draw 3 Tarmogoyfs and he has a grip of Knights.
Game 2: He stifles a wasteland activation from me to get ahead and drops a very large Terravore. I submerge it and Clique it out of his hand when he draws it again. I drop him to 2 land again and beat with the Clique while he can't cast his threats.

Round 2: Mono White Stacks
Game 1: He wins the roll and goes ancient tomb -> chalice on 1. My hand of cantrips with no force seems a lot worse. Luckily I drop some goyfs and attack through ghostly prison. He was missing some tabernacle effect to really lock me out.
Game 2: I punt this by opting not to force a crucible of worlds when I had a clique giving him a 3 turn clock. He drops a Maze and I look groan. He does some stuff with waste and I scoop them up to have some time for a last game.
Game 3: I keep a hand of Force+ blue card and threats. Goyf gets there with 2 minutes on the clock.

Round 3: Against a friend playing my Merfolk deck. I normally relish this matchup with NLT, but this was not to be my day.
Game 1: I keep a 1 landers with ponder and brainstorm. It doesn't get there and he curves out with lords before I can recover.
Game 2: I actually have a keepable hand and use lavamancer and burn to keep him off lords. I brainstorm into a clique, see that he's out of action and the faerie gets there.
Game 3: I mulligan to 5 and keep lavamancer, 2 land, brainstorm and firespout. He plays a pithing needle on lavamancer and I suddenly in trouble. I brainstorm into more land and he gets out LoA, cursecatcher and rejereey. I have 3 land out when he has lethal on board...only hope is it cast firespout and hope he forgets about cursecatcher. When he doesn't, I scoop.
My hand game 1 should have been a mulligan and mulliganing to 5 game 3 was a drag. But that's variance I guess.

Round 4: Breakfast
Game 1: I know what he's running and I lead out a goyf on turn 2 when he doesn't have a turn 1 play. I waste some land and sit back on spot removal when goyf does 20 damage.
Game 2: I open on relic but make a mistake by tapping out for a threat when he has a vial on 1. He puts another counter on a vial, flashes in an illusionist, casts an enkor and it's off to game 3.
Game 3: I keep him off combo pieces, so he goes for the narco beat down plan. Fire//Ice gets his beaters and a clique kills him

Round 5: Burn
Game 1: He leads with lavamancer and rips a goblin guide on turn 2. I start to stabilize and I use trinket mage to grab my collar when I'm at 10 life and he has 2 cards in hand. So obviously he goes bolt, bolt, fireblast. Nice rip.
Game 2: I use lavamancer to keep his lavamancer and guide in check. I get collar online and never get below 15.
Game 3: Have to mull to 6 to find some lands. He has more turn 1 goblin guide action and the red fiery menace gets there.

Round 6: Imperial Painter (7-8 maindeck moon effects, not the Durwald build). My opponent and I are sitting at 9th and 10th, so this is a win and in round.
Game 1: Very long game and I can't remember the early game well. He never goes for grindstone, but Jitte + FoD helps him grind through my deathtouch goyfs.
Game 2: Not a lot of time left on the clock and I make it worse by fetching for a basic mountain instead of island (huge punt, been playing for 6 hours, etc..) Just a laughably bad play since he dropped a turn 2 moon and all my lands were mountains anyway. Anyway, he finishes me off quickly. I'm glad that if I didn't make top8 at least someone I know made it.

I finish 3-3, in 11th place with all 3 of my losses making top8. The trial is won by my car-mate playing merfolk, beating a u/g food chain elves deck in the finals. I'm disappointed with my play, but 6 rounds against 6 decks means a bad day playing legacy still beats a good day playing caw-standard.

4/19 Legacy Local: only 8 people this week.

Round 1: U/W/B Stiflenaught.
Game 1: I stifle some fetches and burn 2 Bobs. Grim lavamancer and collar show up early and it turns off his dreadnaught plan. Goyfs beat him while he's topping for some answers.
Game 2: I keep a hand with lavamancer and collar again and drop a pithing needle on EE. He wastes me off red mana, but luckily I can still block and kill his naughts with collared dudes. I see nothing relevant with clique and the faeries kill him.

Round 2: Affinity
Game 1: He keeps a slow hand with multiple master of etheriums. Unfortunately, this is a great hand against me. I manage to EE the first one, but the second is large and I have no outs.
Game 2: I side in a bunch of hate (null rod, k grip, 2 grudges, 2 REBs) and see none of this. He has multiple 3 drops that are awesome against me (masters and etched champions). I force one, burn out another, but can't do anything about the champion with a plating on it.

Round 3: Mono White Stacks
Game 1: Turn 1 chalice on 1 turns off half of my hand. Luckily I drop a goyf and start getting in some damage. Ghostly prison slows me down and he starts to lock me out with crucible returning mishras and wastes. I get lucky and rip a Fire//Ice when he's on 2.
Game 2: I have 2 goyfs and he has 2 magus of the tabernacle tying up everyone's mana. I rip my EE and drop it for 0 blowing up 2 of his mox diamonds. He has to let a magus go and it opens up the game a little. He has crucible returning mishras to chump block my threats, but I sneak in enough damage with wasteland that I can burn him out.

I finished 2-1 and get 3rd out of 8. B/w deadguy beats affinity to take 1st.

I like the list a lot, but I'm sure I'm still making plenty of mistakes with it (both obvious punts and subtle mistakes)

Also, new card from NPH just spoiled:

Beast Within 2G
Instant (U)
Destroy target permanent. Its controller puts a 3/3 green Beast creature token onto the battlefield.

Is a potential sideboard against troublesome permanents and/or big creatures ala kotr? Leaves them with a dude, but it takes care of the creature permanently (unlike submerge). The beast is boltable, jace-bouncable or certainly smaller than a goyf.

[chinEsE girl]

Aight, time for some spoiler theory:

Beast Within seems very interesting. It reminds me of a different kind of gilded drake. Both give your opponent a 3/3, but beast within doesn't let you keep the knight yourself. It doesn't care about opponents removal (which can screw up drake), which is a plus against junk. It also have applications versus other noncreature permanents like planeswalkers and enchantments like moat and humility.

Mental Misstep, on the other hand, is alot harder to gauge. It seems like it would be very solid, though I'm not sure if I really would want 4. A turn 7 aether vial isn't that scary, while a turn 7 goyf or confidant is much more dangerous, which is why spell snare is still better in my mind. I think I'm gonna start running 3 and seeing how that works.

[planarvoid]

So chinese whats your test results? I really think MM is really good.

[antares]

Hey y'all!

Since this deck showed up in my local game store (piloted by one of the best players), I've taken some interest on how this whole mix of control and tempo works out together. I've been reading the thread over the course of the past few days and after much thinking I'll take chinEsE girl's build for a spin in tomorrow's Bazaar of Moxen Trial w/ a few of tweaks in the sb.

The local metagame is more or less stable. We used to have a 2 Goblins players but the deck seems to have disappeared from the meta... These decks are always present:

2/3 Merfolk
4/5 Zoo (one of them being small zoo)
1/2 Dredge
2/3 BUG Landstill
2/3 NO Bant (w/ GSZ)


The rest of the meta is completed by a mix of decks that show up randomly like CAB Jace, Mighty Queen, MUC, Elves, TES, Junk, Burn, etc.

So, with that in mind, this is the SB i came up with:

3 Pyroblast
1 Null Rod
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Gilded Drake
2 Krosan Grip (is Ancient Grudge that awesome?)
2 Firespout
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Pierce

I'll post the results as soon as I can. I'm hoping I can at least top8 since this deck gave me a lot of confidence throughout the testing, providing grip and beatdown when necessary. It's just so mothereffin' awesome!

Btw, about Nimble Mongoose, do you guys think he's worth a shot in order to up the threat count? I wonder if it's possible to cut something like Ponders and something else to fit them in?

Cheers

[NesretepNoj]

I've tried to make a boarding plan, given the list below, what do you think about it? Should I make any changes?

1 Basilisk Collar
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
3 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ponder
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Mind Harness
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Firespout

Zoo
- 1 V. Clique
- 4 FoW
+2 Mind Harness
+3 Firespout

Merfolks
- 4 Stifle
- 2/3 Spell Snare
(- 2 FoW)
+ 3 REB/PBlast
+3 Firespout
(+ 3 Spell Pierce)

Goblins
- 3 Spell Snare
+3 Firespout

Affinity
- 4 Stifle
+2 Firespout
+2 Krosan Grip

TES/ANT
- 1 EE
- 1 Collar
- 2 Trinket Mage
- 2 Jace
+3 Spell Pierce
+3 REB/PBlast

Dredge
- 1 B.Collar
- 3 Fire/Ice
- 2 Jace
- 3 Spell Snare
+2 T. Crypt
+3 Spell Pierce
+3 REB/PBlast
+1 Firespout

Junk
- 2 V. Clique
- 2 Lightning Bolt
+2 Mind Harness
+2 Spell Pierce

Counterbalance
- 4 Lightning Bolt
- 3 Fire/Ice
- 1 B. Collar
+2 Krosan Grip
+3 REB/PBlast
+3 Spell Pierce

Elves
- 4 Stifle
- 1 Spell Snare
+3 Firespout
+2 Mind Harness

New Horizons
- 4 Lightning Bolt
(- X Fire/Ice)
+2 Mind Harness
+2 Spell Pierce
(+X REB/PBlast)

Lands
- 1 B. Collar
- 3 Lightning Bolt
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 T. Crypt

Force of Will Combo
- 4 Lightning Bolt
- 1 EE
- 1 Fire/Ice
+3 REB/PBlast
+3 Spell Pierce

[Plague Sliver]

If you're playing against TES, you may want to keep the Explosives/Trinket Mage package in. And I would rather have Jace than REB. REB just counters their cantrips.

[mchainmail]

Lands
-1 B. Collar
-3 Fire/Ice
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 T. Crypt


Take out Bolts before Fire//Ice. Ice can get around Maze of Ith.

[antares]

So yesterday's tournament didn't go as well as I expected, unfortunatly. There were 21 players (national holiday, many of the usual players went on vacation) and the field was completely different from past tournaments. There were a lot of unexpected decks bt overall it was nice to see so many changes.
Anyway, I went 1-3 after a promising start which makes me a bit sad because I know I could have posted a better result.

Round 1: Slivers 2-0

I remember my opening hand of Stifle, Stifle, Waste, fetch, fetch, FoW and Brainstorm. I just wreck his mana base and draw 2 more Stifles, Jace, and 2 Goyf in the process. He never had much going on. Sick.

+ 2 Firespout; - can't remember

Game 2 I ride Vendilion and Collared Goyf to victory after landing Jace again and brainstorming for the perfecct hand

Round 2: Small Zoo 1-2

Game 1 went on for like 30min but I managed to win after stabilizing at 5 life, 4 Wasteland, 4 Stifle, Landing a Jace followed by a Goyf and countering anything that could threaten my control of the board

- 2 Vendilion, -2 Ponder; + 2 Firespout; +2 Gilded Drake

Game 2 was heading the same way as G1 but this time I guess he topdecked all the answers he needed. I had him at 2 and I was at 12 but a timely Bolt on a Lavamancer and a swing for 12 with KotR and Goyf were enough to put me down- still, I brainstormed hoping to find a Fire/Ice but only found a Jace, Bolt and another Goyf on top :s the 4th card was the much needed F/I.
G3 with less than 10 mins on the clock was kinda rough and I lost on the 3rd turn of overtime due to my spectacular draw fetch, crack it- draw fetch, crack it- draw Trop :c he showed me his hand afterwards and he had Chain, Bolt, Fireblast. Nice. Hand.

R3: Stoneforge Bant

Mull to 5 in G1, he Spell Pierces my Brainstorm, FoW's a Bolt and manages to Daze my Vendilion while I'm getting smashed by Goyfs and Mystics. Not close...

- 4 FoW, -2 Vendilion; + 2 Firespout, +2 Pyroblast, +2 Spell Pierce

Mull to 6 after a no-lander. Fucking up is mana base doesn't seem like such a great ideia when he starts w/ t1 Forest, Noble and after getting all is duals Wasted he still manages to Spell Pierce my Bolt aimed at Noble, drop a Goyf, send my Vendilion farming, and to my frustration I Firespout, he FoW's; I Pyro the FoW, he Spell Pierces; I pay 2 and he has yet ANOTHER Spell Pierce. Awesome...
I was feeling pretty wrecked by now but I could still make Top8 if I went 3-2 since there would always be two guys with 9pts making the cut.

R4: Merfolk

I thought this would be a perfect round since Merfolk was such a favorable match-up but I was a bit on the back-foot since I had already lost to Zoo which is technically a good MU. Every single game vs. Merfolk during testing involved me stabilizing at 6 or so, dropping a Jace, making him run out of gas and ride the Dream Team of Goyf+Jace ftw.
With this in mind, G1 gets to a point where I have a lone Lavamancer and he has a 3/3 Coralhelm and a Standstill. We're both out of cards in hand and I topdeck Vendilion and cast it in desperation while only having 3 lands. He draws 3 finds Daze as the 3rd card and crushes my hopes and dreams.

-4 Stifle, -1 Ponder; +2 Firespout, +1 Grip, +2 Pyroblast

Typical game, early beats, I burn his dudes with Lavamancer but he has 2 Mutavaults and I have no cards in the yard. I land Jace and start brainstorming for dudes and removal. I find a Waste, kill one Mutavault and play Goyf. From this point I start fate-sealing and keep him from drawing more creatures. He just keeps drawing and saying go. He has 3 cards in hand and I'm at 2 life (Lavamancer died chumping the lone Mutavault on the other side of the table) holding a Brainstorm and land while Jace is at 11 loyalty. He simply plays Submerge on Goyf and when I try to go for Brainstorm he just FoW's it... Damn.

So 1-3, a very disappointing finish. I guess the worst part (besides being crushed by two favorable MU's) was when the Bant player I lost to said to his friend "His deck? It was some kind of threshold but I think it was very weak!". Well... that got me pretty pissed so I started discussing ideas with a friend of mine and he said that he thought for that metagame,a version with Punising Fire+ Grove of the Burnwillows instead of Lavamancer+Trinket Mage+Collar with be best since it would almost certainly crush aggro decks. Idk if that combo is necessary since it would make the mana base a bit shaky and wierd and it would make you give up tempo for inevitability...

To wrap it up, my best friend avenged me, squashing that Bant bloke, making top8 and finishing 4th. Congratz on that!
I'm not giving up this deck- loved the synergy, cool plays and Lavamancer+Collar still turns heads here in Portugal!

[chinEsE girl]

Well, sorry to hear that your tournament didn't go as planned. Sometime you get some rough luck and just don't get there. I've recently been having some bad luck with the deck as well, like in SCG Boston where I got beat round one by sneak attack show & tell and just dropped to save myself from being stressed out all day. At the very least, AJ Sacher made top 8 with a deck that was reeeaaaalllly close to NLT, just about the only thing missing were some goyfs. Instead he ran more jace, lavamancer, and trinket mage action. Strangely, there were no bolts, which really surprised me, but I guess he just just never got paired against goblins ever. He also had a one of dreadnaught for mageing up when he had an extra stifle, which is a very intriguing idea that some of my teammates came up with just a week before the tournament. It has some merit in his deck, giving him a big boom boom against decks that can't handle it, and it doesn't end up being the focus of the deck (which is why I hate decks with 3 or more dreadnaughts). But overall, bad tournaments can happen, so just roll with it. I mean after I dropped in Boston, I just entered the draft open and promptly took it down, nbd :)

[Plague Sliver]

Played NLT last night without Stifles (Next Level Control?).

Round 1: 2-0 win vs. Bant (similar to Caleb's list) - won the attrition war even though he landed Jace Game 1. Game 2 Mind Harness and REBs were great.

Round 2: 0-2 loss vs. mono red Goblins - got overrun game 1. Game 2 I punted due to not blowing up EE to pump my own Goyf.

Round 3: 2-0 win vs. White Stax - won quite easily, I think this is a good matchup. I took my time to set up the EE @ 3.

Round 4: 2-1 win vs. Tezz Affinity - Firespout = MVP. Fire/Ice = MVP no. 2.

I've been testing without Stifles and adding things like Counterspell. I think it will be good to run this deck at Providence only with Misstep instead of Spell Pierce. I have to admit my list looks like a pile on paper but it's performed decently in testing. No terrible matchups yet.

More on Stifle - I've seen AJ and others run Stiflenaught but the more I see Stifle in action the less impressed I am with it. Especially in a post-Misstep world, it's not worth the card slots IMO. The list is tight enough as it is and even if you can deny them mana in the early game, it's not certain that you can close out using the card. If I were to run Stifles I would max out at maybe 2 copies and just make them play around it in Games 2 and 3.

I know Stifle has been discussed infinite times both in this thread and 1,000,000 other threads, just want to throw in my two cents. My list is starting to look more like Counterbalance-less Counterbalance, if that makes any sense. Since I'm playing Jace and Trinket Mage, the preference towards control is natural IMO.

[Koby]

Played NLT last night without Stifles (Next Level Control?).

...
My list is starting to look more like Counterbalance-less Counterbalance, if that makes any sense. Since I'm playing Jace and Trinket Mage, the preference towards control is natural IMO.

Unbalanced and Topless. :D

I've had similar results with Stifle as well. It's so underwhelming, and since we're not in the business of mana denial, including Stifle for that purpose isn't very useful. Spell Snare has been pretty good, as well as 2x Counterspell. I can see swapping the numbers on Lightning Bolt and Fire/Ice (3 Bolt 4 Fire/Ice) for increased utility. I think the 3rd Vendilion Clique would also be useful in the updated list too.

[Rune]

since we're not in the business of mana denial

Mana denial has always been a part of the deck's strategy, but not necessarily the main one. Some games you take your opponent's manabase to the woodshed, other times you play more like traditional control instead. It all depends on the opponent, hand, play/draw, etc.

I wouldn't blame anyone for not playing Stifle, because in the end it's a matter of personal preference, but I have always found the card to be very versatile and strong. It does something useful in almost every matchup. It can also be kind of a mindfuck to play against, since it makes mulliganing decisions a lot harder for the opponent. This unpredictability makes the deck harder to play against (and with), since it can attack from more angles and follow a different strategy each game, unlike a CB deck that just tries to do the same thing again and again. It also means you need to know when to give you up on mana-screwing and transition into some other way of controlling your opponent.

Stifle and the red cards also go hand in hand. A Stifle-less Urg deck will not be able to play as aggressively as a Urg deck with Stifle, and so your burn spells will lose a bit of their power because they don't give as much reach anymore. In addition to being a very good offensive card, it's also a good defensive tool when you need to protect your manabase from opposing Wastes. Again, it's all about versatility.


Someone (I think it was Mike Flores) once said that every good deck needs a nut draw. In NLT's case, I think Stifle is a card that can do this, because sometimes it can just make the game end on turn 1. Also, I think Stifle got better due to Mental Misstep. I suspect people will think they are more safe from Stifle because they have MM in hand, but then you come over the top with your own MM and it's lights out. MM also counters cantrips that are digging for land. But then again, every blue deck is probably gonna play 3-4 Missteps, so they just cancel each other out

[mairou]

In NLT's case, I think Stifle is a card that can do this, because sometimes it can just make the game end on turn 1.

I have to second this. Stifle is the most versatitle card in this whole deck. One stifle can change the way how game goes. 4 Stifle + 4 Wasteland gives so much edge against most of current decks, espicially TAmerica and Zoo. Also against goblins it can stifle vital Matron/Ringleader trigger and so on. Stifle is also a great answer to Storm combo decks. I would never cut stifles from NLT list. And being an ex-dreadstill player I also added 1-off dreadnaught to my list, which is also a reason not to cut Stifles.
Reason why I added Dreadnaught is because it can be somewhat unexpected and can win games pretty fast, if not answered.

I finished 2nd last weekends tournament. With record 5-1-2, only loss in finals. This was my 3rd tournament with NLT and previous finishes were 4-1, and 5th place with Tiebreakers. 4-2-1, top8 and loss, 5-8th place. So my overall record with NLT is 13 WIN, 3 LOSS, 3 TIE (2 of them ID). I started playing with cHinEse girl's list, and then I have tweaked it.

So here is my current list:


4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Mountain

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire//Ice
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB:

3 Spell Pierce
2 Hibernation
2 Null Rod
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Firespout
2 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles


Won: Merfolk x2, Zoo, Bant, Affinity (w/Tezz). Lost: Merfolk.

Some explanations of card choices:

MD:

-1 Basilisk Collar // +1 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
I cutted basilisk collar for it being to slow and easily disrupted.. Although I know, and I have been able to use collar, it has been underperforming for me. With now possibility of nutdraw 2nd turn Phyrexian Dreadnaught deck can be suprisingly fast, and still be constistent if plan fails..

SB:

Sideboard has gone more dramatic changes. I think that Bant and Rock are the worst matchups for us, where as Gilded Drake was good getting KotR, I didn't do much else. And bant having the option to go turn 3 NO into Progenitus, I think that progenitus is bigger consern than KotR. Vedalken Shackles and 2 Hibernations are very good options and I instantly felt that I had better matchup against bant. One faul in my SB was not to remember add a Pithing Needle to sideboard. It would have been in value at finals.

I might be adding Basilisk Collar somewhere in the 75, but with new additions of NPH (Mental Misstep and Phyrexian Metamorph(This card is awesome, answers to Emrakul and progenitus, jitte etcetc.), Im not quite sure how.

[Hanni]

The point of the Stifle/Wasteland package isn't to act as mana denial, in an effort to manascrew the opponent. It's use is to slow down the opponent's mana production early, setting them back a little from resolving bigger spells (3cc+), as well as keeping them off of color splashes. The slowing them down aspect might not seem important, but it helps this deck to get ahead on mana sources and take greater advantage of Daze. One tempo effect isn't what sets this deck up, it's the combined effect of all of the tempo effects acting together. If the opponent's manabase is stuck in the 1cc and 2cc range, Mental Misstep and Spell Snare become stronger. If the opponent is attempting to resolve 3cc spells with only 3 lands, Daze becomes stronger, so on and so forth.

That doesn't necessarily mean Stifle/Wasteland is necessary, especially if you're going for a more controlling build, I just wanted to cite my opinion on the Stifle/Waste package.

My 2 cents.

[The Treefolk Master]

@Plague Sliver: Care to post your list?

[tangram]

Disclaimer: non-English speaking native.

Took AJ Sacher's Next Level Threshold list (-1 Spell Snare, +1 Spell Pierce) to my local FMN for 3 rounds of Legacy finishing 1st.

Round 1 - Mono Black Control (2-1)
Game 1: He goes first and drops an Urbog I look the Wasteland in my hand have the distinct felling that he kept a one-lander. With the Urbog he rituals out a Phyrexian Arena that gets Force of Willed. After Wastelanding the Urbog he doesn't make any land drops. I play a Jace and start fateseling letting him keep a Bojuka Bog at some point with once again a Wasteland in hand. Jace goes for the distance.
Game 2: He rituals out a Phyrexian Arena on the first turn and I don't have a Force of Will in hand. I can't manage to advance further than 3 lands thanks to his Wasteland. Eventually the Phyrexian Arena simply overwhelms me.
Game 3: Spell Pierce a Duress and Spell Snare a Hymn to Tourach. He once again manages to drop a Phyrexian Arena and me a Jace on the following turn. His draws are blanks for a while which allows me to ramp up Jace and bounce Tombstalkers. An Engineered Explosives blows up two menacing looking Nankuto Shades.
The turning point is me fecthing and landing a Pithing Needle on a tapped Nevynirral's Disk with him on 6 life. Jace does his work stalling a Skriekmaw and he died to his own Arena.

Round 2 - CounterBalance Thopter (2-0)
Game 1: An early Wasteland and Stifle manage to stop his development beyond 2 land for a few turns. He tries to resolve a Counterbalance but that gets Spell Snared. His limited mana development was enough for me to play and protect Jace. With Jace on the table the game became trivial.
Game 2: The 4x Pyroblast help the matchup be even more favourable. At some point we have a counter war over an end of turn Vendilion Clique: Counterspell, Spell Snare, Force of Will, Pyroblast and the Clique steals his Veldaken Shackles. On my turn I resolve a Jace and don't loose control of the game thanks to multiple +0 activations.

Round 3 - Speed Goblins (2-1)
Game 1: I go first and keep a greedy hand. He drops a Goblin Guide and soon adds a Zendikar double-strike Goblin with Maniac Strenght in response to a Fire // Ice on that Goblin and a Bushwacker. I die shortly after.
Game 2: Again Goblin Guide on his first turn but I manage to control the board with Trinket Mage for Basilisk Collar and Grim Lavamancer at 2 life. Bit by bit I manage to crawl back to double digits and win.
Game 3: Once again Goblin Guide on his first turn which payed off for me thanks to a Brainstorm staking lands. I manage to Pyroblast creatures in response to pump spells and have a full grip of the game with Jace, Basilisk Collar, counters and Fire // Ice. Two timely Spell Snares protect the Grim Lavamancer which kindly deals letal.

Remarks:
- Jace was a monster. Most games ended up being attrition games and in each Jace completely ruled the match
- Stifle endedup up being sided out alot. Aside from the CB Thopther match I took it out allways. 2 in 3 match I faced mono colored decks.
- Dreadnought was sided out in every game. I can't help but wondering that Tarmogoyf would have made a better job, plus he'd carry the Collar like a champ
- Pretty much all games took a long time to finish has I didn't have a beater (missed Tarmogoyf). Vendilion Clique helped but still felt like a beater was in order
- Loved the Trinket Mage package, namely the Collar and Engineered Explosives
- Spell Snare reveled itself has much better than Spell Pierce
- Pyroblast / Hydroblast are amazing

[chinEsE girl]

Alright time for some serious necro here.

With misstep getting the ban, and stifle actually beating bad players once again, I think it's time to look at NLT again. I'm not exactly sure what I want my new list to look like, but I'll just give a small preview by noting that I'll be snapcasting a lot of stifles of unsuspecting players in the near future.

[Equinozio]

Alright time for some serious necro here.

With misstep getting the ban, and stifle actually beating bad players once again, I think it's time to look at NLT again. I'm not exactly sure what I want my new list to look like, but I'll just give a small preview by noting that I'll be snapcasting a lot of stifles of unsuspecting players in the near future.

I think punishing fire would shut down viald.decks and batterskull.decks and also wg. But this deck is has a lot of tools to adapt to the right metagame and we should see what happens.

[KevinTrudeau]

Ever since I played against freakish777 at GP Columbus, I've always considered this to be a tier one deck, even though it's never been universally recognized as such (truth be told, I've never fully understood why anyone was running NO RUG these past few months instead of an altered version of this deck. Jace just seems like a superior 4cmc wincon to Natural Order). With Dismember, a card that can potentially kill off this deck's number one enemy, Knight of the Reliquary, and Snapcaster Mage as new additions, this deck probably just got even better. An early draft of a post-Misstep, post-Innistrad list:

3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (had been 2 Jace, 1 iteration of Control Magic, but Jace is just better)

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce (or Spell Snare)

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire//Ice
1 Dismember
1 Life from the Loam (I'd been running Crucible of Worlds for many months while testing in 2010, but this actually seems superior)

[Solthos]

I am very interested in this deck. Is the snapcaster mage really that good in this deck? And is the trinket mage package too janky in the current metagame?

[chinEsE girl]

Just to let everyone know this list is far from dead. I won an 86 person Jupiter games tournament with my updated list, and it has some spicy options. I went 5-0-2 in the Swiss, so I didn't lose a single match all day. Expect a tourney report to pop up later today.

[jeanbathez]

Just to let everyone know this list is far from dead. I won an 86 person Jupiter games tournament with my updated list, and it has some spicy options. I went 5-0-2 in the Swiss, so I didn't lose a single match all day. Expect a tourney report to pop up later today.

Gratulation ! I would be very interested, that would be very nice, i'am still searching for a Deck for GP Amsterdam.

[Tammit67]

Just to let everyone know this list is far from dead. I won an 86 person Jupiter games tournament with my updated list, and it has some spicy options. I went 5-0-2 in the Swiss, so I didn't lose a single match all day. Expect a tourney report to pop up later today.

As soon as I saw you won, I checked the boards. Congrats!!

[Chikenbok]

Nicely done Eric, looking forward to a decklist and a report of course.

[chinEsE girl]

The report is finally up. It's a bit long winded, but I guess that happens when you play (or draw) literally every single round. Hope it shines some light on what I think the new stage of NLT should look like. I'll also be editing the first post in the thread to make light of the changes (in particular how unbelievely insane snapcaster is in this deck).

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22406-I-AM-THE-RUG!-1st-place-at-the-10-15-Jupiter-Games-NELC-tournament&p=595452#post595452

[Koby]

How does this deck pair against Reanimator? Which cards are weaker? Which are stronger? How would the maindeck be tailored against a metagame with close to 20% Reanimator, and 15% combo?

EDIT: Just thought of one card: Curfew, which turns on Snapcaster Mage and Clique once more.

[chinEsE girl]

This deck against reanimator is ok, but not insane. I'd say reanimator has a slight edge in game 1, but after sideboard you have a ton of options against them so I think it swings a bit in your favor games 2 and 3. The bolts and fire//ice are obviously not that fantastic here, but all the countermagic is nice (obv). Chaos warp is also super spicy against them, since they have only like a 7% chance of hitting another dude off of it. After sb you get spell pierces, REBs for their counters and their jins, and the graveyard hate of course. The phantasmal image can do some work, along with gilded drake. If someone play Sphinx and thinks that's game, you just steal it and laugh at them. For making the main more tuned to fight combo, I'd take out one of the removal spells and add one more counterspell in. Maybe something like a spell pierce or the like.

[yutang]

So what is this deck weak against? What are its bad matchups?

[kues]

Every deck that plays Knight of the Reliquary.

[Demonic_Attorney]

That is not entirely accurate.

First off, there are a lot of tangible answers for Knight that this deck has access to play. Gilded Drake, Submerge, Dismember, Jace, various counters and depending on the NLT player's selected graveyard hate, crypt and then bolt or lavamancer, or just surgically extract Knight.

Knight in and of herself is far from an auto lose for this deck, especially post board. Stating that one creature is this decks inherent weakness is rather askew. Put another way, there is kryptonite to answer this ostensible achilles heel.

[Koby]

Nearly card for card NLT (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Events.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpams11/day2A#3) featured at GP Amsterdam, and made T32 at the event.

Was NLT a good choice for a metagame defined by Reanimator, ANT, Merfolk, Can Thresh, and Maverick representing nearly 30% of the total metagame?

[Zilla]

Nearly card for card NLT (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Events.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpams11/day2A#3) featured at GP Amsterdam, and made T32 at the event.


From the article:


Depending on how you look at it, this is either the next level of Canadian Threshold, or a whole new deck.
Was he trying to be funny?

[Tammit67]

Eric, how'd you end up after the feature match? Any changes you would make?

[Mark Sun]

Was he trying to be funny?

Pretty sure the A-Squad was in Santiago this weekend, if that answers your question :wink:

[rancOr_]

I end up in 32nd place (12-4) at GP Amsterdam after going 12-1. Little report following soon.

[chinEsE girl]

I finished in 19th, going 6-2-1. Definitely should of gone 7-2 at least, I screwed up against David Price and got an unintentional draw where I should of won the match. I also screwed up against Van Lunen on camera in game 2, where I'm pretty sure I I play right we go to game 3. The deck is still really good, I just want to get the 22nd land in so that you have your mana more reliably.

[chinEsE girl]

Just a quick aside apart from the deck's current construction, but would anyone be interested if I wrote an article going into the finer details of playing this deck? I've had a lot of opinions floating around in my head from the past weekend, especially from talking to a ton of the semi-pros about my deck while I was playing in Baltimore. The deck also seems to be getting a bit more popular due to it's recent results, and I'd like to share everything I've learned while playing the deck.

[jimirynk]

You could update the primer Eric"pro"English.

[deviant]

This is the real deal. I played a fixed list of erics last version at amsterdam, starting out 8-1 with the loss being a disgusting reanimator topdeck. (exhume , that being the only active animation spell from shuffling one of them away with clique just before I would have untapped into jace) I obviously mulled from the draw game one and had nothing.
The deck impressed me by coffin punching through liliana otv and jace tms both at 5 with me only having 4 lands and 2 cards at his eot. one being submerge and jace just left somthing on top. No joke.

Anyway, day 2 I lost against reanimator again, after obviously mulling on the draw and not having much to show game one to he having the standard turn 2 animation. A few force of wills (his) later I now knew how it feels when someone urinates on your face.

That wasnt so bad though. If only I would not have tossed away the next 2 matches in situations where I have perfect (vendilion) information and jace on the table. Well, almost. As I left a counterspell in my opponents hand eot and untapped into jace.

He was staring at me for half a minute probbaly wondering how stoned I am and played the counterspell. For some reason I couldnt get the math of 2x island + 1 counterspell > jace correctly.
I lost eventually, didnt draw either grudge in the 30 or so cards I saw. Would have probably won me the game as I had found infi rebs and the 2nd jace and that would have been able to clear the board of his pressure and the bolts in my hand would have been able to keep it that way. Oh well.

Next round I know my opp. has a bolt in his hand. I resolve jace, fateseal, see punishing fire, waste him down to just volc and island and the bolt in hand and pass. eot bolt, untap punishing fire. Then he drew well and I didnt. I hate myself.

So yeah, the deck sure performed. I didnt. The only changes I made were cutting the good attempt of trolling the netdecking community from the md and replacing it with dismember and playing a real sb.
Fire Ice seemed suspect, but I wouldnt want a 2nd dismember in the 75 and I think 6 removals is the good number. I would want a 3rd preordain though, not a 22nd land like english said earlier. The preordain I believe would be much better as it helps the mana and digs you to jace which is the real MVP (shocking, I know) in the deck.

Maybe I will try this with the preordain in place of fire ice as I like to contradict myself like that.

BTW: thanks for the deck Eric, and if you write the primer, remember to start it off with the crucial chapter of " how to appear to be canadian trash, and when that no longer works, still being able to keep the opponent playing around daze even in game three" as I found that to be quite usefull. Seriously though, there should be at least 3 chapters of the card stifle in there. I doubt people really get that card here correctly.

[chinEsE girl]

Good idea James. I'd almost forgotten about the primer that I wrote way back when. Guess I'll update the primer to reflect changes in the meta as well as newer cards for the deck, especially snapcaster. I'll still be writing that article about he deck though, there's still a ton of ideas I want to put down to paper/word document.

[Tammit67]

The commentators were really hating on your deck. I don't understand why they can't see that ancient grudge and lavamancer just answer everything Stoneblade has at this point.

Out of curiosity, were would you say was the mistake that cost you that game 2?

[JJ_JKidd]

Every deck that plays Knight of the Reliquary.

Partly true. Tested Barnett's (SCG Baltimore 6th place) list with SFM Bant and I was able to out tempo him until he resolved a KoTR with FoW backup which was a pain in the ass tbh. The reason being that we were able to just draw-go for a few turns w/o me putting some significant threat into the board.

I just wanna ask, which list is "better" in an unknown meta. The CPTop version that Calosso used in the same open, or the non-CBTop one?

[jeanbathez]

Good idea James. I'd almost forgotten about the primer that I wrote way back when. Guess I'll update the primer to reflect changes in the meta as well as newer cards for the deck, especially snapcaster. I'll still be writing that article about he deck though, there's still a ton of ideas I want to put down to paper/word document.

Thats sounds like a good idea, i'am interested in that article !

[chinEsE girl]

The primer has gotten a quick update, including some reasons behind cards that weren't in the original deck, which at this point is pretty ancient. I'm currently at work with the article, just hoping to find a good platform to publish it on.

[Koby]

The primer has gotten a quick update, including some reasons behind cards that weren't in the original deck, which at this point is pretty ancient. I'm currently at work with the article, just hoping to find a good platform to publish it on.

We could ask one of the admins on this site to help re-order some posts, or to reboot the thread with a new primer. I think that Snapcaster Mage is a large enough change to the structure of the deck to warrant a reboot.

[Zilla]

I'd be happy to do whatever is necessary to accommodate you if you want to publish your article here. If you want, we can close this thread and restart it using the article as a more current primer, or you can post it as a standalone article in the Format Discussion/Article forum.

[rancOr_]

I've put up a report from GP Amsterdam in the tournament reports section.

[Purgatory]

Went 4-2 in a local 48-people tournament yesterday, ending up 12th with horrible tiebreakers.

Played a list very similar to Erics:

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Mountain

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
1 Dismember
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB:
2 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Exraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Mind Harness
1 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Firespout


Won against Reaminamtor twice (2-0, 2-1), Bant Aggro (2-1) and UW Stoneblade (2-1).

Lost against Pattern of Rebirth in a really close game in round 2, where I had six or seven turns to topdeck either a Submerge or a Jace, with three of each still in the deck, or a Brainstorm to find either and then swing for lethal (he had only a Hulk in play, but no sac outlet), but just kept drawing more lands. Ended up 9th at 4-1 for the last round with the worst tiebreakers of all 12-pointers. Had to play a web-streamed feature match and got paired against a friend who was playing Lands and who was 3-2 but with better breakers for me, so he wanted to play it out rather than to scoop or draw me into T8. Of course, I lost 0-2, and he ended up 9th. That is such an awful match-up. :(

Other than that, I was happy with the tournament and happy with the deck, I think I will stick to this for a while. The board was okay, but I think I'll cram another Mind Harness into it, it's a real boss against Maverick etc. and my singleton won me both my games against Bant ("what do you mean your Knight?").

[Tammit67]

Creatures:
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer

Legendary Creatures:
3 Vendilion Clique

Instants/Sorceries:
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing fire
1 Chaos Warp

Planeswalkers:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Basic Land:
2 Island
1 Mountain

Non-Basic Land:
3 Grove of the burnwillows
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 flusterstorm
3 pyroblast
2 ancient grude
3 mind harness
2 thrun, the last troll
1 phantasmal image
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 surgical extraction


This is what I am sleeving up for this weekend near Philadelphia. Obvious changes are Ivan Ooze main and Punishing fire. With everyone running things that die to burn and/or playing from their graveyards, Fire/Ooze is good. Ooze not only shuts down snapcaster, but holds back KotR, hopefully enough. The sideboard is pretty standard, although the lack of pierce is a personal thing, as I really like fluster right now. This is the first flight of this, but I expect to do well.

EDIT: Why don't people play this much? Feels awesome to me. No reason this should be at the bottom of the second page

[Dewman]

I'm really liking the deck. It lets me play all the fun cards like jtms, snapcaster, goyf et al.

But of late I'm not laking Stifle since I'm seeing alot of Delver. Stifle has served me well in the past, but I'm leaning towards more Fire/Ice and cutting stifles. Anyone else feeling this?

[rancOr_]

No- I would never cut stifle in this deck,its one of the best cards!.. also defensive.
Also, punishing fire while not bad isnt needed. U got burn enough with lb's/fi ,grims and snapcasters to flash it back. And it makes ur manabase weaker as its harder to cast CS etc,..

What I will be testing is Thrun side ,as TT is played alot and those are always VERY close games. Thrun is huge in that MU.
Last weekend I played in40 man tournament again:
round 1: 2-0 Rock
round 2: 2-0 Reanimator
round 3: 2-0 Tempo *****
round 4: 2-0 Hive Mind
round 5+6: ID
QF:2-1 goblins
SF:2-1 D&T
Finale: 1-2 Bant

I went back to ponder after GP instead of preordain and cut the chaos warp. Although it doesnt really matter if u play ponder or preordain as both are each situational better.

[bradstone]

I went back to ponder after GP instead of preordain and cut the chaos warp. Although it doesnt really matter if u play ponder or preordain as both are each situational better.
Out of curiosity, what did you put in its place?

Also, I'm curious if people think dismember is needed in NLT. I ran Tempo Thresh this past weekend with two of them in there and they were pretty awesome for getting rid of anything bolt wasn't hitting.

[Tammit67]

Also, punishing fire while not bad isnt needed. U got burn enough with lb's/fi ,grims and snapcasters to flash it back. And it makes ur manabase weaker as its harder to cast CS etc,..



Yeah, after brief testing, grove just fucks the mana base too much. In order to support it, the land count would have to go up to 23 minimum, just to ensure we have enough play.

Thrun, however, has not been a disappointment at all.

[catmint]

Out of curiousity:
Why do you play Stifle?

This seems like a dedicaded control deck with a ton of grinding power. I guess Stifle has teh biggest value in a tempo deck combined with wasteland and Daze.

I play BUG control and the first thing I cut from Team America was Stifle.

[Dewman]

The way I see it, is that like Canadian Thresh, you aim to set your opponent back enough turns so you can seal the game with Jace (usually).

However, as Adam Barnello pointed out today, Delver of secrets (and canadian thresh) is on the rise, so I'm not quite happy playing cards like Stifle

[rancOr_]

@bradstone
I used Chaos Warp at GP,but by playing it I lost the game and didnt make T8(even though chances are always small- this case 1/10). I have put the 4th spell snare in its place and never looked back. Spell Snare is one of the best cards in the current meta.
Dismember is not needed,the only thing u dont like g1 is a resolved KotR(which even then u can bounce with Jace) which is often bigger then 5/5. Post side I just steal KotR etc.. if there are any.

[bradstone]

@rancOr
That was what I was thinking to however, a singleton dismember can go a long way with snapcaster, and I'll probably end up keeping it in there for now.

I made the switch from RUG Delver and I put a list together last night (almost identical to chinese girl's) and play tested a bunch against maverick. We probably played about 5 games and I went 4-1 with was a HUGE improvement from the delver build. Counterspell and Clique allowed me to keep him off knights, while the two grim lavamancer mainboard went a long way with fire/ice to keep him off moms/nobles/etc. I'm playing in about a 50 man tournament this Saturday for a playset of underground seas and I can't decide if I want to run this or RUG Delver. Whhich do you guys think would be best in a meta like that

[chinEsE girl]

I mean, with delver rug getting very popular, I'd rather be playing NLT. You both get to play very similar cards, except you have more mana and Jace. You just get to go bigger and that usually takes down matches.

I've also thought about having at least one, maybe two scavenging oozes in the sb. I had to play the mirror in a recent tournament, and he got an ooze to resolve and it was pretty insane against me. My snapcasters were shut off, it got bigger than goyf, and I had to dig for a dismember to get rid of it but couldn't find one in time. It also works very well against any graveyard strategy, but that's obvious enough already.

[Tammit67]

I have two Ooze main right now (over two goyfs) for just that reason. He is very vulnerable though, but hopefully worth it come this weekend

[chinEsE girl]

Tammit, be sure to let us know how those oozes treat you this weekend. I'd really like to get some actual in game results on the ooze, so I can tell if my intial opinion (that it's really good in the right situations) is correct or not.

[Tammit67]

Tammit, be sure to let us know how those oozes treat you this weekend. I'd really like to get some actual in game results on the ooze, so I can tell if my intial opinion (that it's really good in the right situations) is correct or not.

If there was a correct situation, I didn't encounter it today. Round 1 was the price of progress show on a mull to 5. Ooze did win me game two here by gaining some critical life, but goyf would have been a better wall and beatstick to end the game before the life entirely mattered.

Round 2 was against goblins, forgoing piledriver and war-chief for instigators and boartusk liege in addition to more chieftains. This deck can't deal with 3 Boartusk that well. I certainly misplayed game two, but I didn't have the proper hand game 1 to handle drop 4 lands then 3 lords. I knew he was goblins but I didn't know the drastic changes he made. This deck is certainly fine against regular goblins.

I am sure a lot of it was my fault, so feel free to disregard my feedback. I'm just really on tilt after having to play against blue all day with TES, only to have the one time I don't show up with it I get paired against things I don't have a sideboard plan against. Everyone and their mother was running the Punishing Fires/CB list, I wish I could play against that instead.

TL;DR: Ooze would have and is amazing in an expected meta like vestal. But very fragile and goyf is wayyyy better when you hit those odd decks you aren't specifically prepared for. I'll be going back to goyf unless I make the trip to vestal (as I am not changing my mind just yet on how good ooze is against another blue deck)

[Arew]

I'm going to try Life from the Loam in Chaos Warp's slot, it seems like it has potential to be awesome, we'll see though.

[lolosoon]

So, I sleeved up this deck for a Legacy 'FNM' this weekend with some tweaks for the random/aggro predicted local metagame (small shop) :

NEXT LEVEL THRESHOLD
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

3 Vendilion Clique
3 SnapCaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire//Ice
2 Dismember

2 Jace, TMS

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Jace, TMS
3 REB
2 Spell Pierce
2 FireSpout
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Mind Harness
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim

As said before, I was expecting a quite random MetaGame with a bunch of aggro decks, so I wasn't confident in the denial package and added pinpoint removal and reach for the deck.

So it's basically :
+3 Fire/Ice
+2 Dismember
+ 1 Ooze in the 'Flex Slot'

With 3rd Jace in SB.

The Ooze was tested in prediction of a larger tournamanet for next week. Didn't see it from the whole (4 rounds) tournament...

The SB Claim should have been a lone Grip in retrospect. The deck has enough mana to use Grip, and Snapcaster into Claim seems a bit trivial imho.

I went 4-0 with those quick results :

Round1 - Elves Combo

Game 1 - I bolt his Turn1 Ranger then waste his Arbor, slowing him enough to take the control game with Lavamancer, Fire/Ice and a couple of SnapCaster flashing back the burn.
I won through magi beatings.

Game 2 - I knew he had Rule of Law post-Side, but I made a mistake in thinking the pesky card was 2W instead of 1W. I tapped out for a grim T1 and he drops the gamebreaker enchantment.
He combos out before i found my Nature's Claim, with 2 FiresPout in hand...

Game 3 - I started with a Grim, then chained Bolts,SCM+Bolt and so on. I Clique him at a moment and saw a Rule of Law, but with 1 land and a bunch of useless elves I made the choice of not risquing giving him a land draw, and don't touch anything. Clique+direct damages made their thing.

2-1

1-0 total

I didn't event played a Goyfs those 3 games ! Go Go Tiago Sligh !! ^_^;


Round 2 - Grixis CBTop

Game 1 - I Dropped Grim and Clique before he assembled CB Top. Unfortunately, he then dropped a Schackled with backup and killed be with my own beasts (Grim killed Himself, the he took Clique)

Game 2 - I'm the control deck this time. I managed to handle a first CB with Snare +REB backup, put a goyf in play but he smothered it and combo with CB/Top. I sneak a Clique EOT and he draw with top in response, REB it, tapping Out.
I didn't play my FoW, untap, play Jace and Fatesealed his top. I then FoW his own Jace a I took the game with Jace+Goyf.

Game 3 - It's the same. He built an early CB/top and I Clique EOT. He looks then draws Force with his top, but I forced back, and dropped Jace, TMS during my turn, putting Top on bootm (!).

I then cut him from red Mana and let him with a full grip of perish as Clique+Tiago doing their job.

2-1

2-0 total

Round 3 - Punishing Thresh

Game 1 - He out me on Can.Thresh and play carefully around non-existent Stifle. After 3 turns of Draw-Go, I play Clique and see a hand with Snare and Pierce. He put Jace on bottom.

I then counter an EE and ride a huge goyf to victory.

He eventually dropped Jace at a moment, bouncing my Goyf but I bolt it and replay it unharmed and bigger the turn after.

Game 2 - He put too much focus on Goyf, switching Bolts for Perishes. Jace and Clique take the game.

Hopefully, he hasn't draw any Punishing fire this round...

2-0

3-0 total

Rounde 4 - ANT

Game 1 - I mulled into 2xBolt, 2xSnare + 2 lands. He starts with Probe+duress on bolt, then next turn Cabal Therapy on Duress but can't go off tight now.

I clique the EOT following, he brainstorms in response...

His hand is full of black rituals and i suppose he puted a tutor on top. I still put the lone Lotus Petal on bottom then waste his only red mana source, forcing him to go with the AdNauseam plan with only 10lifes.

But he has put Grim Tutor+LED on top with brainstorm and kill me with a Past in Flames routine, dropping to 1 when i bolted him in despair.

Games 2&3 - He bring in Xantids but I managed to burn them then counter his cantrips and ride Clique to victory with burn assistance.

2-1

4-0 total, granting me a scrubland.

Ok, so no janky/aggro Metagame after all, but I really liked this deck's consistency and stability.

The dismembers were garbage (even if i didn't face any KotR nor Aggro decks) but I really appreciated the extra burn Fire/Ice provided.

I didn't miss he stifle at all ! My opponent were playing around most of the time, and i don't think the mana denial plan is worth it.

StoneForge can be taken care with Fire/ice BTW, so i'll keep the burn in.

Some times, i felt i was a bit manaflooded with no business lateGame, but 21lands with 4 waste are just enough to make Jace ant SCM run well, but reusing those SnapCasters with Riptide Laboratory is tempting.

I'll surely go to -2 Dismember +1 Jace +1 Riptide Lab. in the near future, making room in SB for another REB/Pierce.

I don't know if Ooze is MD Material, but the SB is pretty clogged for now...

Thoughts ?

[Mark Sun]

After speaking with folks, game results, and some consideration, I think that 4 Grim Lavamancer is right call in the maindeck right now. Grim Lavamancer is vulnerable to pretty much every piece of removal right now, so I think having redundant copies is the right way to go to ensuring that it sticks around. I'm cutting 3 Vendilion Clique (which seems to be losing effectiveness with a heavy percentage of RUG Tempo in the metagame) in favor of 2 Grim Lavamancer and the second Fire/Ice.

I would still like to fit in a second Dismember (previously in the flex slot of Chaos Warp -- which was awesome :cry:). Thoughts?

Oh, and Ooze is amazing. Would love to fit it in, just don't know where.

[rancOr_]

Played in 2tournaments last weekend. Placed 3th of 103 and split top 8 in 145pple tournament. Deck performed solid as always. I played with a Life from the Loam maindeck and really like it. Im now testing with a 3th grim MD cutting a V. Clique(going down to 2).

[Koby]

Played in 2tournaments last weekend. Placed 3th of 103 and split top 8 in 145pple tournament. Deck performed solid as always. I played with a Life from the Loam maindeck and really like it. Im now testing with a 3th grim MD cutting a V. Clique(going down to 2).

Could you provide a short right up on the list you played and how your matches generally went?

[rancOr_]

Hey,

Here is a double report:

After the GP I only made 1change to this deck. I played the 4th spell snare(previously chaos warp) and played it in a 40 man tournament and lost in the finals vs. a teammate with Bant. Last weekend I decided to test out Life from the Loam in that slot and it worked out great as expected. Here is a quick report with my matches from both tournaments. I didn’t take too many notes so I will try to reconstruct the matches as good as I can. First off, the deck:

NLT: [Next Level *****]
4 scalding tarn
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
4 wasteland
2 island
1 mountain
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 lightning bolt
1 fire//ice
2 jace,TMS
1 life from the loam
3 spell snare
4 force of will
2 counterspell
4 stifle
4 tarmogoyf
3 snapcaster mage
2 grim lavamancer
3 vendilion clique
SB:
4 REB
2 spell pierce
1 tormod’s crypt
2 relic of progenitus
1 grim lavamancer
3 submerge
2 mind harness

Saturday- Outpost Masters – Brussels(BE) 103 players
R1-Tempo ***** [2-0]
G1 he plays a t1 mongoose so I know what he’s playing, fetch basics and play around potential daze/stifle and eventually win a close game. G2 I keep him off his creatures and take over the game.
R2- Ichorid[2-0]
G1 I FoW his discard outlet and kill him some turns later. G2 2-3 goyfs finish it really quickly.
R3- UW Stoneblade[2-0]
G1 I think I have the game and decide to play clique EOT to kill his jace(instead of recasting goyf- which he bounced),but he top-decked a karakas. Some turns later I take his Jace down and win. G2 I have too much counters with reb’s etc,.. and take control of the game.
R4- Team America[1-2]
G1 I mull to 6 and he gets a goyf online at some point to finish it. G2 is a close game and now I win the counterwar and beat him with a goyf. G3 he kept a hand with 3goyfs. Unfortunately, 2 of them resolve along with a liliana…and I scoop it up.
R5- BG Control Homebrew [2-0]
Some things happen and Jace lands both games…^^ He played with veteran explorer ,recurring nightmare/witness etc..
R6- Imperial Painter[2-1]
I win g1 but he gets a t1-2 Blood Moon g2 and combos off some turns later. In G3 I mull to 5 with waste as my only land. I waste his land and draw a fetch 2turns later. He made a mistake here with painter in play and activating grindstone so I could respond with fetch-> REB painter. I FoW a SDT and Imperial Recruiter and eventually get my 2nd land and play 2 tarmogoyfs for the win.
R7-ID
QF- Pattern of Rebirth[2-0]
Both games I can LB, grim, snapcaster -> LB his guys and finish it.
SF- Combo elves[0-2]
G1 I mull to 6,counter a glimpse and cantrip but he combo’s off t3. In g2 I keep a decent hand with ponder,island,fetch,lb,goyf,clique and something else. Ponder gives me no land so I shuffle. Next turn I decide to fetch for volcanic to EOT LB his guy. But then I brainstorm into waste,goyf,goyf and I clique a goyf away 2turns later just to draw the 4th one ><

So I end up in 3th place and get a volcanic island and a FTV:Exiled box for my troubles. Team America (my R4 opponent) splits the 15 duals in final with the Combo Elves player.

Sunday – Dutch Legacy Championship-Eindhoven(NL) 145 players
R1-Rock[2-0]
G1 we trade some removal and I counter some spells and she lands a Bitterblossom somewhere but I am able to race with 2 goyfs and a grim lavamancer. In g2 I go t1 grim,t2 goyf,t3 clique and a t5 jace while fow’ing something in between.
R2- TES[2-0]
Same person I played in GP day2. One of the best combo players out there so I know I still have to focus. But I have a good MU and have enough counters both games. He also made t8.
R3- Reanimator[2-1]
This is a very good MU, as I was currently 12-0 against it in games . I win g1 with a V. Clique after stifling an animate dead and snaring an exhume but lose g2 against a t2 reanimate for Jin with double counter backup. G3 goes like it is supposed to go and I have way too many counters/disruption.
R4- NO rug[0-2]
G1 he gets out 2goyfs,one which he fow’ed trough and my jace gets active too late and I have to start chumping.. G2 I waste+stifle/bolt him down to just a single forest(he had 4cards in hand then) vs. my 5land in play and 2 submerge in hand. Unfortunately I draw 7 land in a row without fetching.. so I lose..This was very disappointing. He also made it to t8.
R5- ANT[2-0]
Good MU as usual so nothing exciting here. I have stifles for his fetches along with a big counterwall. He almost goes off g2 but I drew a clique somewhere to make sure that didn’t happen.
R6- UW Stoneforge[2-0]
We both counter stuff and I eventually get him down to 11,then my clique gets fire//ice’d. But I have enough card advantage already and proceed to burn him out with 3bolt+FI. In g2 the REB’s come in and I take control of the game again at some point. He played very solid, but my counters are cheaper and REB does its job post side..
R7- Burn[2-1]
I didn’t see this guy in the rounds before so I really had no idea what he was playing.. I expected something combo like because I didn’t get a chance to scout his deck.
In G1 I kept a hand with fetch,waste,other spells and drew 2 wastes so my Jace only landed t6 .I almost got back in the game with my Jace and Goyf but he had 1 turn to topdeck a burnspell, which he promptly did. G2 I can counter/remove his guys at the right time and finish him with a Goyf. G3 I have a good hand, but as it turned out I needed all my counters because he topdecked everything he needed(reb,pop,fireblast)… and I win in some very close games.
R8- ID

We decided to split t8 and each get 175 euro. At the end I was very satisfied with the deck and I will keep the MD like it is now. In the 4 tournaments I played this deck in post MM I am 30-8-4(W-L-D;t8 included).The loam was definitely worth the slot. It allowed me to come back in games and fetch the extra lands away. Besides that, it can just win or help a lot in certain MU’s like Team America or Tempo *****. I am testing some different cards in the SB at the moment, because the only things I don’t want to see are Tarmogoyfs and KotR’s and the submerges have been underperforming lately.

[lolosoon]

Congratz for your finishes !

Funny thing : I was too at the Brussel Outpost Legacy with NLT (stifle-less) and lost back to back games vs TempoThresh (better players) after a 4-0 start (Reanimator, SneakShow, Burn and Reanimator again)

I really liked the MD Dismember to take care of opposing goyfs, but Knights are sure a lot of pain (lost vs Maverick to a Turn3+Turn4 Knight and Mother + Knight G2) and mind 2 SB Harness sure weren't enough in my build.

If the Submerges weren't good enough, and SB Ooze are bad due to the low Green mana count in the deck, I hope you do not plan into go back to Chaos Wrap to face those KotR ! ^^;

[Mark Sun]

I played an experimental list of NLT today at a small local so I could prepare for the SCG Invitational. There hasn't been much Legacy in Columbus, so I took a car down to Cincinnati.


21 Land:
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

11 Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Grim Lavamancer

28 Spells:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice
2 Dismember
2 Jace, TMS


SB:
3 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Pierce
1 Life from the Loam
1 Gut Shot


My matchups:
2-0 UBr Past in Flames (Made Finals)
2-0 GW Elves
0-2 Burn (Made Top 4)
2-1 UW Stoneblade
Top 4: 2-0 NoFoW Bantblade
Finals: 2-0 UBr Past in Flames


Some things about the list, basically it reflects what I commented on from my last post here. The Cliques were very underwhelming as of late and I wanted to max out on Grim Lavamancers to improve on the Delver Tempo matchup, as well as against all of the other decks playing tons of x/1 and x/2 creatures right now. The Chaos Warp slot became Dismember, and the third Clique became a second copy for consistency. This helped rationalized the cut of Clique, which I felt helps against the Knight decks in g1 (post-board 3 Submerge helps too).

I also took a page from my pre-Misstep banning NO RUG list and I changed the burn suite from 4 Lightning Bolt, 1 Fire/Ice to 2 Lightning Bolt, 3 Fire/Ice. I feel like the amount of x/3's you need to kill right now are low, and Fire/Ice serves the same function in occasionally 2-for-1'ing someone with x/1's, killing stuff like SFM, or winning a Goyf war.

The sideboard was pretty generic, except for the Gut Shot that I wanted to try. Apparently, that card is all right in this format and pretty good with Snapcaster Mage. Would have liked to have all the crazy stuff I usually have with Eric's list (Gilded Drake, Phantasmal Image, Mind Harness, Firespout, etc), but this was a good opportunity to experiment.

[from Cairo]

How are the Relics of Progenitus in the SB? It is strong against graveyard strategies, but with lists running Goyf, Grim and Snapcaster it seems pretty anti-synergistic. I guess with burn as primary removal one wants a way to reset opposing Goyfs and KotRs?

[dsck]

I played this list today in a 32 player tournament and finished 5th or 6th with 4-2 record.

21 Land:
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills (didnt have another blue fetch around)
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
2 Jace, TMS


SB:
3 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pongify


6 rounds of swiss:
Rd1 Punishing Fire Maverick 0-2
Rd2 Affinity 2-1
Rd3 Merfolk 2-0
Rd4 Bant 0-2
Rd5 UBwg ANT 2-1
Rd6 UW Stoneblade 2-1

My plan against knight of the reliquary decks sucked, need some advice on those MUs.

[Mark Sun]

How are the Relics of Progenitus in the SB? It is strong against graveyard strategies, but with lists running Goyf, Grim and Snapcaster it seems pretty anti-synergistic. I guess with burn as primary removal one wants a way to reset opposing Goyfs and KotRs?

I could have split the GY hate there actually. I tend to think that Goyfs can be regrown rather quickly, and I'm not likely to bring in Relic against Goyf/Knight because I have access to Dismember (previously not in the stock list) and 3 Submerge post-board, not to mention more narrow answers like Jace/Counterspell.

I chose Relic since most of the GY based decks in the room were weaker to GY sweepers, but were decks where I likely needed the extra card in the attrition battle anyways.

[Asthereal]

R4- NO rug[0-2]
G1 he gets out 2goyfs,one which he fow’ed trough and my jace gets active too late and I have to start chumping.. G2 I waste+stifle/bolt him down to just a single forest(he had 4cards in hand then) vs. my 5land in play and 2 submerge in hand. Unfortunately I draw 7 land in a row without fetching.. so I lose..This was very disappointing. He also made it to t8.

If you are who I think you are, then this opponent of yours just missed the top-8. :tongue:
Because that was me... Lost the last round against EsperBlade (the champ) and went 5-2-1. I was a bit lucky against you, I must admit. But then again NL Threshold does have trouble with a row of big dudes, I think.

[Dyvith]

I piloted a similar-esque deck to the top 4 of a Jupiter NELC this month, forgoing the green splash that the Delver Tempo decks have been playing, yet not playing Price which a lot of these UR Delver decks have been doing.

Here's a link to the report: http://jupitergamesonline.com/2011/883/greg-komars-tournament-report

And here's the decklist:

Main deck:

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Dismember
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Smash to Smithereens
2 Shattering Spree
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge

[Endure2004]

Hi everyone my name is Ning and I’ve been playing legacy for a couple years now, mostly with Eric’s RUG control list. Here’s my tournament report for a 24 person tourney in Elmira, NY on December 10th, 2011.
First, my list:
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ancient Grudge

Some explanations on the numbers:
I cut one clique from Eric’s list to run an extra grim lavamancer, I found that I was boarding him in a lot and I wanted him over the mana heavy clique against the delver decks out there. I cut the life from the loam / sylvan library for the third preordain because I didn’t like loam the couple times I’ve tried it, it just seemed too durdly, and sylvan was clunky and not a great topdeck. I really feel like the deck doesn’t want to tap out for something that doesn’t affect the board. Anyways, here are the matches:
Round 1 against Greg Komar
Greg is a great guy I know from Vestal, and I put him on the U/R delver list that gave him top 8 last weekend at the NELC at Jupiter games. He reveals during shuffling that he’s playing some green idiots, so I put him on the popular delver list from the SCG opens. Game 1 he has a threat light, disruption heavy hand. I play around stifle/waste, and he stifles my attempt to waste him out of a color on his turn. I’m forced to dismember a delver and snapcaster into dismember on his snapcaster, and it costs me a lot of life. I’m light on lands and he plays a goyf I can’t answer and throws bolt + snapcaster bolt at me to kill me.
Board:
+2 REB +2 pyroblast +2 spell pierce +1 ooze +1 surgical extraction
-4 Force of will, -2 Vendilion Clique, -2 Counterspell
I wanted to board out cliques because of how vulnerable it is to his daze / REBS, as is my counterspells for his snares and REBS. Ooze is good against his snapcaster and goyfs and life gain, and mise the one surgical for countering snapcaster or getting a trop. The surgical might be bad. He also told me afterwards that he didn’t play spell snare!!!! Sigh.
Game 2 I fetch a basic mountain and lead with grim lavamancer. He cantrips, and on turn 3 I have an interesting play. I’m holding goyf and spell pierce, and he has one mana up. I play goyf, expecting a spell snare, and instead he force of wills. I spell pierce his force, and he looks sad. Sweet. On his turn, he plays crucible of worlds, and proceeds to try to waste me out. I’m on 2 basics and im beating down with goyf + grim. He accidentally plays a land from his hand instead of from his yard (oops), and im able to hit 4 lands. I draw Jace, and slam it down (if he had daze he would’ve dazed my pierce on his FOW, or he needed to draw it in those 3 turns or so), then I tank on playing around REB or bolt (he has no red up). I decide that if he had bolt he would’ve bolted my grim, so I brainstorm into some stuff to play around REB, but he untaps and draws into REB to kill Jace. Should I have fatesealed? Him drawing bolt or REB punished me for brainstorming, but I avoided him untapping and REBing Jace if he had it in his hand. Not sure whether it was the right play or not, if you have thoughts let me know. Anyways, he can’t answer my goyf and grim and I kill him.
Game 3 he basically handed to me on a silver platter. He plays island (!!! Basics??) then passes. I make a land drop. On his turn 2, he draws, says “crap I think I lose” and discards submerge. Sweet. I make another land drop, and he discards goyf. I’m holding surgical, and I smile and decided to go deep. BAM! Good bye to your goyfs. He reveals snapcaster mage, submerge, goyf, spell pierce, sylvan, and something else I can’t remember. He discards goyf, and on my turn I get some goyf beats on. I REB a brainstorm, and then a ponder, and then snapcaster REB on another ponder while he bricks on lands. Goyf and snappy get him.
Round 2 vs Chad with merfolk
He was playing next to me last round so I know what he’s on.
Game 1 I mulligan an borderline hand of grim, fetchland, brainstorm, and some other uncastable stuff. My 6 is meh but I have to keep. He has the turn 1 vial, which I force, and he forces back, pitching a kira, which I find odd. Isn’t kira just going to be insane against me? Turn two he wastes me back down to one land, and I misplay by preordaining, which he dazes, and afterwards I shamefully play my fetchland that I could’ve played first to avoid being dazed. Yuck, I still suck at this game. He vials in a silvergill and then another kira (thaaaat’s why he pitched it) and beats with those while I try to find gas. I’m forced to clique him on three lands to try and block kira, but he dazes. Yuck. I’m forced to bolt + stifle his kira, and then snapcaster bolt a coralhelm. He rips another guy while I rip lands and I die.
Boarding:
-4 FOW -4 Stifle -1 Counterspell, +2 REB, +2 pyroblast, +2 spell pierce, +2 ancient grudge, +1 ooze
Most lists run Jitte, and grudging vials is not the absolute worst. Ooze is another goyf + life gain, and REBs are obviously insane. I make land drops and he goes turn 1 vial. I say fine, but then I realize how completely idiotic that is because a spell pierce is in my hand. Brain fart. Gotta calm down and play magic, not be nervous and freak out. I end up not getting punished for it, as he plays vial 2 on turn 2, which I’m fine with. At least they’re not creatures. He vials in a silvergill and plays a jitte while I’m holding bolt and goyf. My plan is to get his guy during combat, but I draw an ancient grudge so my plan changes. I don’t play the goyf to go with the grudging his jitte plan. He vials in coralhelm, plays land number 3, equips silvergill, and swings. I grudge his jitte, bolt his coralhelm, and take 2. He passes the turn with 1 mana up. I think I have a read on dismember, so I play goyf with spell pierce up (good thing I didn’t use it on the vial). He dismembers, I pierce, he dazes. Meh. I draw more bolts, REBs, and snapcasters while he draws dumb dudes that I kill. I beat down with a snapcaster vs his empty board, he draws a mutavault, I waste it. Then he draws another mutavault, I waste again. I draw a clique and clique his draw step, letting him keep his daze. I draw a spell snare, so I flashback grudge on his vial on 2 (his other vial is on 3). Then he dies. 
I jokingly ask him while shuffling up for game three to draw a hand without turn 1 vial, but secretely, I’m completely fine with him drawing vials instead of creatures, as most of my countermagic is boarded out. He has no turn 1 vial. I preordain turn 1. He plays a turn 2 silvergill, revealing reejery. I make a land drop. He plays a second silvergill, revealing the same reejery. I REB counter it. He passes without a 3rd land. I play a goyf, he has no answer for it. He plays vial and passes without a third land. I attack once with a 4/5 goyf, he doesn’t block. He draws his third land and plays coralhelm instead of his reejery, neglects to level it. From here, my memory is a little bit fuzzy. I have a window and I resolve a Jace, and I brainstorm into a million goyfs. I end up with 3 goyfs plus my scavenging ooze plus Jace to his board of adept, adept, reejery, and vial on 2. I bounce his reejery and slam with my team. He chumps a goyf and goes to 2. On his turn, he concedes.
This matchup is really good for this deck. Game 1 might be decently even, but they flat out lose to an unanswered grim. Games 2 and 3 all you have to do is not mess up horribly and your infinite removal will get them.
Round 3 against Tom Leger
Tom’s part of my Ithaca playtest group (and my housemate) so we both know each other’s decklists pretty well. He’s on Junk, and the matchup is pretty tough. KOTRs are insane against NLT (this deck), and hymns and bobs are also must-counters. He wins the die roll, I keep goyf, goyf, land, land, FOW, FOW, brainstorm. He thoughtseizes turn 1 and takes a brainstorm, so I put him on at least 1 swords. I draw another brainstorm and play my land and pass. He plays bob on turn 2. My options include force of will pitch force of will, which I don’t want to do because he might have taken brainstorm because he thought the KOTR in his hand would blank my goyfs, or force pitch brainstorm, or try to brainstorm into a bolt (didn’t have enough mana for a snare). I decide to brainstorm, I hit the bolt like a pro, so I untap and bolt. He plays a top with no third land, and I play the first goyf. He swords it and untaps, topping. He hits his third land, and I play my 2nd goyf. He plays kotr into the double force of will he knows I have, and I force it pitching force. I draw clique and clique him while beating with goyf. I see in his hand: goyf, vindicate, mox diamond. I take the goyf and beat with goyf + clique on my turn. He tops, untaps, and slams KOTR. Crap. I beat with clique in the air, he untaps and passes. I play goyf 2 and he fetches maze of ith for my clique. He vindicates one of the goyfs. Then, he kills the clique with a plow. Luckily, I have another clique. He doesn’t know, so he bashes with KOTR and mazes his KOTR post combat. I clique him end step, take something irrelevant, and untap and fly over for damage. The damage race gets really close until he’s on 6 with goyf bob maze to my clique. He untaps and rips scavenging ooze!!! I’m in a tough spot, and I think about what I need to rip. Probably a brainstorm. Like a boss, my draw step reveals a brainstorm. I brainstorm into wasteland, Jace, and land. Wow. I play Jace bounce knight, crack a fetch, waste his maze, attack with clique, put him to 2. Unfortunately, this leaves me dead to pump ooze, untap pump ooze x2, attack me with ooze + bob. He fortunately doesn’t see this line, and makes a small misplay by topping in his upkeep with one of his green mana. He kills Jace with bob and bashes me down with ooze, the lifegain from ooze put him slightly out of reach. I need to rip again. Brainstorm, preordain, snapcaster, or bolt would do it. I draw a…..scalding tarn, and concede. I peek, and the next one is preordain. I peek some more, and there’s a bolt 1 down. What an epic game.
Boarding:
-1 FOW, -4x Stifle, +1 clique, +1 ooze, +2 mind harness, +1 relic.
We used a ton of time for game 1 so we both play a bit quicker this game. All I remember from this game is that we trade some spells and I play a goyf. He plays his goyf, and I mind harness goyf. I make sure not to be a scrub and forget the cumulative upkeep, and he dies. It mustve taken under 5 minutes.
Game 3 starts off with a mulligan on both sides. He plays mox diamond, land, top. I tank on whether or not I force his top pitching spell snare. He knows I don’t have daze, so there’s a decent chance that if he had a 2 drop he would’ve played it. The game will most likely go long, and he went down cards for his mox diamond, so I end up deciding to force it. I play a land, he wastes. I play another land, he plays another land. I brick twice on lands, have to discard a bolt. He is annoyed that he is land flooding out. I hit my 2nd land, and counter a vindicate on one of my lands. He draws more lands, and cantrip into lands and I finally resolve a Jace, fateseal him, and let him keep a bob with a bolt in my hand. I kill his bob, fateseal him again, and he concedes. What an intense match.
Round 4 against Mark (paired down, im 3-0 hes 2-1)
My opponent shows me a bolt and a price of progress accidentally during shuffling so I put him on either burn or U/R delver. He has mountain into turn 1 goblin guide. Turn 2 I bolt it after seeing the guide reveal, and he suspends rift bolt. I play a lavaman, and he has another guide. I bolt it again after seeing the trigger, and he’s stuck on one land. I clique him, and he asks what’s that, so it’s obvious my opponent hasn’t played a lot of legacy. I see a billion 2 drops and a bolt, so I let him keep. He bolts me instead of my lavaman or clique. I Jace fateseal him, and let him keep a keldon marauders. I’m holding 2 spell snares, and so I play an end of turn snapcaster bolting him, and race him keeping him off lands. He rips a land through fatesealing, and plays something. I snare. Next turn, before he dies, he plays a flame rift that would kill him. I make the odd decision of snaring it, because I know he can’t do anything other than fireblast (I’m holding force). He concedes.
Boarding: -4 stifle +ooze, +2 spell pierce, +1 clique. Dismember sucks but I don’t have a better card.
Game two he leads with guide, I play a grim. I find a land off the guide, and bolt it. I snare a price of progress, then snapcaster snare another one. I beat down with my random dudes, and he floods out with 2 barbarian rings while im at 6. It’s close, but my random assortment of dudes kill him.
From there, I ID into top 8, getting a split of 90 in store credit, which I use to pimp out my omnath edh deck. Oh yeah, if anyone has Jon Barber’s contact information, let him know I have his avenger of zendikar which I dupliant’d during an edh game. I end up seeded first, yay! I’m getting better at this, but still need to stop making dumb misplays every once in awhile. The deck was awesome, the only thing I was unhappy with were the stifles. They didn’t do much, and I boarded them out a lot. I’ll still keep them in for awhile, and reserve judgement on them for later. What do you guys think?

[Arew]

I went 5-4 in the Legacy Open this weekend with NLT, and not really much to report, I beat: Mono-White TurboFog, Combo Elves, Hive Mind, Spiral Tide, the Gate. I lost to: RUG Delver in a really close game 3 that involved me wastelocking him and then drawing five lands in a row to lose to his delver, Dredge, ThopterControl, and UW Stoneblade in the last round.

Against Dredge and ThopterControl there wasn't much I could do, against RUG Delver I neglected to waste his Volc before casting Preordain and he Pyroblasted it which could have potentially saved me, and against UW Stoneblade I was just so tired that I was playing sloppier than I had in awhile. The deck overall was a blast to play, and I'll probably keep playing it.

[dsck]

What game plans people have against Punishing Fire (Maverick)? I also find Mother of Runes pain in the ass despite having 2 Fire//Ices and 3 Bolts maindeck (game 1) meaning I use them aggressively on Nobles/Arbor/Stoneforge Mystic, is this wrong? Should I save them for MoMs and hope I can handle the rest in other ways?

[chinEsE girl]

In all honesty I think GW in general is just hard to beat regardless, but for dealing with mom grim lavamancer can usually eat her with ease. Unless they have 2 out, you can grim her eot, they save her, then you kill her on your turn. It's not a great solution but it does work. Dealing with both mom and punishing fires together is a bitch though. I'm not really sure any tempo deck in the format is able to deal with maverick that has both mom and punishing fires available.

[Koby]

What game plans people have against Punishing Fire (Maverick)? I also find Mother of Runes pain in the ass despite having 2 Fire//Ices and 3 Bolts maindeck (game 1) meaning I use them aggressively on Nobles/Arbor/Stoneforge Mystic, is this wrong? Should I save them for MoMs and hope I can handle the rest in other ways?

Engineered Explosives to deal with the small dorks goes a long way. Punishing Fire has to be dealt with either removing the recursion (Grove or exile effect)

[dsck]

Engineered Explosives

I had 1-2 in main/side but they dont play well with lavamen and your own stuff in general.

[berry]

I wasn't sure where to post this, as it's 50/50 about next level thresh/Countertop, but since the changes I'm making feels very next level I'll start by posting it here.

I've been playing a tempo-CB-RUG to moderate success in our weekly legacy tournament, it looks like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
8 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

SB:
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 REB
2 Blood Moon
2 Submerge

The problems I had with this list was that it played Daze with CB and even Jace, that I had trouble fighting more "true" control decks, and also I really just disliked Grim in it.

So, I wanted something more stable and slightly slower, and brewed into this:

(4 Delver of Secrets
OR
4 Snapcaster Mage)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Jace
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

8 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Thoughts? Enough Flippage for Delver? 4 Tops should help, they are best friends. Is Snapcaster too mana-intensive for CB/Top-decks?

I know this is Countertop, but it's closer to your next level lists (sans Stifle, but with CBTop) than i.e. GerryT's RUG CB-list.

Opinions, please?

[dsck]

Played today in a ~20-25 player legacy tournament with 6 rounds of swiss. Buy-in was 20€ instead of the usual 10€ so that may have cut some players. Top 2 gets invite to finnish "Caribou Tour" (2k€ invite only tournament).

I finished 5-1 (1st or 2nd in swiss):
Rd1 4C ANT 2-0
Rd2 TES 2-1
Rd3 Imperial Painter 2-1
Rd4 KotR Stax 0-2
Rd5 GW Maverick 2-1 (I lost g1 in couple minutes, he had 3 mana dorks, cradle, mystic, thrun.. After SB i managed to control both games)
Rd6 Mirror with Jori Hukka (deviant) 2-0 (my record against Jori before this match was 0-6 for him, finally a victory!)

My list:
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fire // Ice
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Preordain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 2 Mind Harness
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Sylvan Library


SB against ANT:
+2 Spell Pierce
-2 Jace

SB against TES:
+2 Spell Pierce
-2 Jace

SB against Imperial Painter:
(this is probably incorrect way)
+2 Spell Pierce, +2 Ancient Grudge, +1 Sylvan Library
-4 Stifle, -1 Preordain

SB against Knight Stax:
(this is probably incorrect way)
+ 2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Spell Pierce
-3 Spell Snare, -1 Fire/Ice

SB against GW Maverick:
+2 Mind Harnes, +2 Submerge, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Tormod's Cypt (probably not correct), + 1 Sylvan Library
-4 Force of Will, -2 Stifle, -3 Spell Snare, -2 Vendilion Clique

SB against Mirror:
+3 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Sylvan Library
-2 Force of Will, -4 Stifle

[Mark Sun]

SB Plans

Would you have considered the following against Imperial Painter?

-4 Stifle, -2 Preordain
+1 Sylvan Library, +2 Ancient Grudge, +3 REB

I feel like Spell Pierce does less against them than REB does. We have the lands to operate under Moon (as long as you're not that attached to Goyf), so it's not that much of a backbreaking effect if we can get Islands into play. REB threatens them when they go off; if they have Painter, they can either turn their own Blasts off, or turn ours on.

[dsck]

Would you have considered the following against Imperial Painter?

-4 Stifle, -2 Preordain
+1 Sylvan Library, +2 Ancient Grudge, +3 REB

I feel like Spell Pierce does less against them than REB does. We have the lands to operate under Moon (as long as you're not that attached to Goyf), so it's not that much of a backbreaking effect if we can get Islands into play. REB threatens them when they go off; if they have Painter, they can either turn their own Blasts off, or turn ours on.

Yes, I actually sided close to that on g3. Afterwards my opponent told me Stifles were more relevant than any of those cards I had sided in :eyebrow:.

[Razorwynd]

I played the deck today and was very happy with it's performance. I am looking sure up the UW stoneforge matchup. What are people thoughts on Thrun? I like that most UW decks likely only have 2-3 outs for him in the entire 75 (i.e. SoFaF and WoG). However, he places a great deal of strain (i.e. GG) on the mana base. Is it worth the strain in a UW heavy meta? or is it more worthwhile to just increase artifact hate (e.g. more ancient grudges and krosan grips)?

[Purgatory]

I played the deck today and was very happy with it's performance. I am looking sure up the UW stoneforge matchup. What are people thoughts on Thrun? I like that most UW decks likely only have 2-3 outs for him in the entire 75 (i.e. SoFaF and WoG). However, he places a great deal of strain (i.e. GG) on the mana base. Is it worth the strain in a UW heavy meta? or is it more worthwhile to just increase artifact hate (e.g. more ancient grudges and krosan grips)?

1-2 in the side feels fine.

[Arew]

So, I've noticed that more U/W players are boarding in Elspeths and more Path/Swords effects against us. The Path/Swords effects aren't *as* annoying as Elspeth in that matchup because we have Jace and REB to stop their own Jace postboard. What cards are particularly good against Elspeth that we could run? Should we just start running Pithing Needle in the board?

[Endure2004]

pithing needle seems so narrow....i run 2 cliques main 1 board, so against them i would board the clique, pyroblasts, spell pierce, and ancient grudge

[Endure2004]

plus the scavenging ooze maybe? i feel like NLT has enough threats to fight the swords/path plan....against them i might board -4 FOW -4 Stifle +4 REB/pyroblast, +2 ancient grudge, +1 ooze +1 clique or +2 spell pierce depending on build / play or draw...grim is insane against them right? something they have to kill?

[Razorwynd]

I played the deck today and was very happy with it's performance. I am looking sure up the UW stoneforge matchup. What are people thoughts on Thrun? I like that most UW decks likely only have 2-3 outs for him in the entire 75 (i.e. SoFaF and WoG). However, he places a great deal of strain (i.e. GG) on the mana base. Is it worth the strain in a UW heavy meta? or is it more worthwhile to just increase artifact hate (e.g. more ancient grudges and krosan grips)?

I played the following list again this past weekend to a 3-0-1 record against Elves, ANT,UW stoneforge, and ZERO.

3 Snapcaster
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Grim Lavamancer

2 Jace

1 Sylvan Library

2 Preordain

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire//Ice
4 Stifle

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Grim Lavamancer

I was pretty happy with everything. Fortunately, KotR decks are few and far between in the local meta so I can afford to skimp on submerges.

The main deck slots I am questioning are:
2 Preordain
2 Fire//Ice
1 Sylvan Library

Does anyone have any thoughts on the usefulness of these cards and potential replacements worth considering?

I have also been thinking about changing the graveyard hate package a little bit by going:
-2 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+2 Surgical Extraction

My only concern is the loss of effectiveness of the artifacts for the increased utility of surgical extraction and Ooze? Any thoughts on the effectiveness of Ooze against super graveyard oriented decks like Dredge. My thought is that since stifle is also an effective hate card against dredge 4 surgical extraction might be fine.

[dsck]

I top8'd finnish legacy champs today (99 players, 7 rounds of swiss + top8).

Rd1 ur delver 2-1
Rd2 pattern rector 2-1
Rd3 burn with splash for delvers 2-1
Rd4 belcher 2-0
Rd5 uw(r) stoneblade 2-1
Rd6 id
Rd7 id
Top8 1-2 GW Stax

I dont think I made any changes to my list which I posted couple pages back.

[Endure2004]

came in 2nd at the january NELC at jupiter games with this list:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, TMS

4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 FOW
2 Counterspell

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Trop
3 Volc
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

SB
2 REB
2 pyroblast
1 Thrun
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Vendilion clique
2 ancient grudge
2 Mind harness
2 relic of progenitus
2 Spell pierce

round 1

0-2 vs punishing fire maverick

game 1 is close, i deal with some creatures but cant deal with the one creature that gets through and picks up a jitte and a fire/ice sword
game 2 he has kotr REB into Kotr REB. ouch. i was actually still in it if he didnt have the last REB. he told me after he only has 2 REBS in his board. must be nice....

round 2

2-1 vs U-R delver burn

this was my closest match, all three games he had 2-3 one drops.
game 1 he plays some dudes, burns me out. i board in a bunch of REBS and pierces
game 2 i remove his dudes and beat down with some guys, winning at a really low life total. he bricked on like 3 draw steps.
game 3 was the real nailbiter. i play around daze and remove a delver, and trade snapcaster + bolt for another delver and a goblin guide, but i take a bunch of damage in the process. he plays a grim and surgicals my bolts, and i lose one from my hand. crap. i play goyf and race goyf + clique vs grim guide. he bricks on some drawsteps while i counter some burn. win at 2 life (he had to last turn chump with grim and burn me to 2) on turn 4 after time is called.

round 3 win 2-1 vs Storm
game 1 my oponent plays some cantrips, and i beat down with a goyf. he doesn't do much, and it's not until the last turn that i learn he's on storm (i thought he was on reanimator). he plays a petal and chants, i bolt him to 3, then he cant win because he cant grim tutor or something...
game 2 my hand sucked and he stormed me out through 1 FOW
game 3 his hand is crap, and i beat the crap out of him

round 4 win 2-0 vs storm
game 1 i stifle his turn 1 fetch, then beat down with a goyf. he stumbles on mana, and dies.
game 2 he tries to go off my turn 0 with no protection. Good thing i had 2 FOW + 2 blue spells in my opener. YUM! i beat down, and after a buncha turns he goes for it again with burning wish for past in flames. i have another 2 FOWs. #goddraw

round 5 win 2-1 vs UR delver (greg komar)
game 1 he stifles me mid game when im light on lands, burns me out after beating down
game 2 i board in a buncha ways to kill his dudes, and we play a lot of draw go before i land a Jace and he takes it down
game 3 same thing, lots of draw go, we counter war on his turn, i resolve a Jace that eventually ultimates him

round 6 win 2-0 vs affinity
this opponent was sketch... i wasn't sure if he was trying to cheat or was just new to legacy, i was leaning towards just new to legacy so i didnt judge call him....
game 1 he has a slow start (land into mox opal) and tries to tap the mox opal for mana, and i have to remind him that he doesnt have metalcraft. he plays a random dude that sux, and then tries to thoughtcast with one mana less than he had to, i have to again remind him. SKETCH. then i counterspell 2 etched champions, FOW a Jace TMS (they play that card?) and then beat him down with a huge goyf.
game 2 he plays a 0 mana dude and a stoneforge mystic, which i let resolve since im holding grudge. I grudge his cranial plating, counterspell an etched champion, counterspell his agent of bolas, and kill him with grim + goyf.

round 7 ID with a dude

top 8 yay!!! my first Jupiter games NELC top 8, much thanks to playtest buddies and mentor and deck creator eric.

round 1 of top 8 vs meandeck MUD
game 1 i spell snare a chalice, bolt a metalworker, waste him, and land a Jace, which he cant beat, all while beating with a goyf.
game 2 he lands a lodestone golem. i force another golem. on 4 mana, i made the mistake of draw step cliquing, instead of combat step cliquing to trade with the golem. he plays 2 kuldotha forgemasters, which he doesnt activate to play around stifle. he beats down with those, and eventually gets me.
game 3 i spell pierce a chalice, then snare another chalice, then waste him, then play Jace while he's mana light and it's over. didnt see ancient grudge at all! so unlucky!!

round 2 of top 8 vs Bant GSZ (4 KOTR, 4 GSZ, 4 Jaces)
game 1 i bolt a mana dork, waste him, waste him again, then draw my third wasteland. he does nothing.
game 2 i again bolt a mana dork, waste him twice, then play jace and he dies. his deck plays few mana sources if you just kill his dorks....

finals vs aggro loam
game 1 i play a grim guy, he holds down the fort and he does nothing. he goes for bolt on grim, and i tank. he didnt do anything for like 3-4 turns, so i think hes holding a hand full of duders that die to grim, so i end up forcing his bolt. next turn he drops grim, bob, bob. I brainstorm into end step grim ur guy, untap, bolt ur guy, grim ur guy. i think im sitting pretty until he rips his only 2 goyfs one right after the other, and i cant deal with them.
game 2 this game was rough, i have 2 grims, but only play 1. sure enough, he has the maelstrom pulse that i played around. i play my other grim, but he has liliana. i bolt down liliana after she makes me sac grim, and then he has ooze + countryside crusher that i can't deal with, and thats the end of the tournament! congrats to david!

i switched the 1 clique in the board to a surgical extraction, and i never cast thrun today, despite baording him in a couple of times. he hard to cast, im still going to try him out, but so far he hasnt been amazing. every other card in my board has been great! i definitely advocate at least 2 preordains, they have been really good. i can see cutting 1 for a fire/ice maybe, but not completely sure. deck is awesome! lemme know if you guys want to know how i sideboarded in each matchup.

[the_ob3lisk]

Endure2004 I played a super similar list (maybe 2 or 3 cards off) from yours today at a local meta and placed 1st. I've been having great success with Canadian Thresh so I decided it was time to test NLT out and I must say this deck feels like the real deal. If you could post how you side boarded... I'm very interested!

[Endure2004]

well i changed the clique in the board to a surgical extraction, so here's how i would board in the matches i played:

punishing fire maverick:

-4 stifles -2 FOW
+1 relic, +1 ooze, +2 mind harness, +2 ancient grudge,

This one depends on the build, but the important cards in the matchup are KOTR and equipment. If you can keep them off those, you have the best shot. This is a tough matchup, but the grudge should keep equipment off your back, the rest should deal with punishing fire and KOTR. PS choke is a beating, if they play that maybe only take out 1 FOW.

U/R delver:
-4 FOW -3 Stifle
+2 REB, +2 pyroblast
+2 spell pierce
+1 scavenging ooze

This one is slightly matchup dependent. if they play stifle / daze / waste, you might want to go with taking cliques out and keeping stifles in to protect your manabase. If they play goblin guide / price, then take out stifles instead of cliques. IMO thrun is slow in both cases, and your plan is to not take damage, and play as many goyfs and Jaces as you can. ooze is just another goyf.

vs Storm:
-1 dismember, -4 lightning bolt
+2 spell pierce, +2 pyroblast, +1 REB

i played against ad nauseam, but boarding depends on whether you play ad nauseum or TES, i think. throw ur REBS at all their cantrips, and i usually keep in grims in case they play xantid swarm. if your sure they dont play xantid swarm, take out another grim for another REB. aggresively cantrip towards counterspells.

vs affinity
first, mentally high five yourself for getting this matchup. then, board in ancient grudges, REBS if they play Tezzerets / thoughtcast, and play tight. Take out stifles, keep FOW in. the important cards in this matchup are: cranial plating, etches champion, tezzeret. counter or kill those, and you should be fine. grims are mvps.

vs meandeck MUD
im pretty sure this matchup is really good for us, depending on the build
+2 spell pierce +2 ancient grudge
what to take out is tricky, it really depends on their build. I usually take out some combination of stifle (if they dont play kuldotha forgemaster, even if they do u might want 2-3, not sure), goyf, and 1 preordain maybe? usually i think the plan is to disrupt them, stop their enablers, and kill them or play Jace. So get their metalworkers, their lands with wasteland, and their grim monoliths. try not to die to chalice / trinisphere. They're pretty helpless against Jace.

vs heavy GSZ decks (like the bant deck i played in the semis)
depending on the build, bring in mind harnesses, possibly REBS, pierces, and maybe 1 relic. What worked for me in this matchup is just disrupting their mana dudes and their manabase, it's pretty flimsy because of how few lands they play. if you can't, you need to be able to answer their KOTRs. Board out stifles on the draw and possibly also on the play, possibly some number of goyfs, not completely sure on this one.

vs aggro loam
i would board out stifles, bring in spell pierces, ooze, and surgical extraction. out maybe 1 or 2 forces, bring in mind harness (countryside crusher = yum) it's a tough matchup, and i haven't played it much, so im not completely sure what im doing is right. lemme know your opinions!

out of curiosity, what cards different did u play from my list? care to post matchups and how different cards performed?

[the_ob3lisk]

This is what I rocked...

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique ***** (Seems underwhelming every time I ever played him.. thoughts?)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, TMS

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder *****
1 Sylvan Library *****
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare *****
4 FOW
2 Counterspell

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Trop
3 Volc
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

SB Was tailored to what I expected...
3 Relic Of Progen
1 Tormods Crypt
3 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Firespout
1 Krosan Grip
2 Energy Flux (Affinity)



It wasn't a huge turnout but what I did end up playing against was Countertop Thopters, Combo Elves, and BUG Landstill.


Countertop Thopters -

Cant remember too much of game 1 as it was over with a few swift stifles attacking his fetches. I boarded in Firespouts, K-grip and Pyroblasts. It was over quickly.

Cant remember exactly what I boarded out...


2-0


Combo Elves -

The elves player had an explosive start game 1 and overran me.

-4 Stifles +2 Firespouts +2 Spell Pierces

Game 2 I mulled to 6 and kept an opener with some lands Brainstorm, Grim Lavamancer and Library. Grim was exactly what i was looking for and between him and library it won me the game with ease.

Game 3 I almost kept the same opening hand with Grim. Library following a few short draws after... Grim started to get overwhelmed but a Firespout blew out the entire board and Goyf came in swinging.


2-1

Landstill -

Game 1 Stifle shined once again and he was having a really hard time trying to play catch up. I kept landing threat after threat (Goyf, Clique, Jace) His innocent bloods and edicts were getting burned through quick. Eventually he was overrun by king Goyf.

-4 FOW -2 Spell Snare +3 Spell Pierce +3 Pyroblasts (Later to be concluded not the best idea)

Game 2 was basically control / counter war over the slightness things... He tried real hard to play around my Stifles. Eventually he landed Jace with Standstill... I waited until EOT to flash clique in one turn so he would get less value out of his standstill and have to discard... Clique ate a Force and I drew pyroblast to blow Jace out and that also got countered -_-

- 3 Pyroblasts +3 FOW

Game 3 I kept an opener with a super control heavy hand and Jace. I was able to land Jace turn 4 and rode it out from there...He didn't have many outs at that point. Fate sealing saw a maelstrom pulse so I lucked out on that one.


2-1


Conclusions -

21 Lands feels perfect for the deck. Jace actually doesn't feel clunky to me in this deck, It was great every time I saw him. Lavamancer is MVP right now. Goyf is still the nuts, he gets in a lot of damage quick. Sylvan Library was absurd as well.

[Endure2004]

hey all, im trying the following changes to my list:

main:
-1 preordain
+1 dismember
sb:
- thrun
+ garruk relentless

ill let you all know how it goes

[Endure2004]

hey all, here's an update to the list im playing right now, any comments / suggestions would be helpful

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the mind sculptor

4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 preordain
2 counterspell
3 Spell snare
4 lightning bolt
1 Fire/Ice
1 Dismember

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical island
3 Volcanic island

SB
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Phantasmal Image
2 Mind harness

I'm decently happy with the main deck, the addition of the fire/ice over the 3rd lavamancer has treated me well, the versatility of the spell is desirable and i usually disliked drawing multiple lavamen, especially in matchups where they didnt do anything. I'm trying out the Gradigger's Cage because i think it stops dredge and reanimator pretty cold, and i liked having the bullet one of that is really hard for the opposing deck to deal with. Thrun was too hard to cast for me every time, and i switched him to the garruk for swords to plowshares decks, that try to beat you by killing all your dudes. Garruk has been great for me the 5ish times i've cast him, single handedly winning a couple of the games, making wolves and killing control decks. he's not REB-able, and is a hard-to deal with planeswalker, sort of like elspeth in UW. He's terrible against lightning bolt, but still gives you the value of leaving behind a 2/2. I'll keep tabs on him to see how he does. phantasmal image is to deal with opposing thruns / geist of saint traft. im thinking of switching the 2nd ancient grudge to a null rod. while weaker against batterskul and stoneforge decks, it is better against vial / affinity / MUD / lands / divining top decks / storm, tho im not sure i would board it in against them all. lands seems like a miserable matchup. thoughts?

[Razorwynd]

There are two topics within the RUG delver thread that I think at least warrant some discussion in this one.

1) Counterbalance Top out of the Board
2) Cutting stifle in favor of spell pierce

In regard to #1:
I actually think the idea of counter balance out of the board is one that we could easily support and might actually be worth while given the increase in monoR burn.

Even though it is a reasonable option against burn and storm, I am not sure how much it will actually sure up any of the other match ups. I can see it coming in for the UW matchup as well... but aside from that doesn't seem outstanding, but it is only 5 sideboard slots

I know a lot of lists have already been playing one Sylvan library main. It doesn't seem too far fetched to add 2 tops and 3 CB to the board.

In regard to #2:
I feel like a lot of the discussion in the RUG delver thread is about how most good players will be playing around stifle regardless of its presence in the deck and that a card like spell pierce might just be more effective given the rise of burn. However, I feel that since our game plan does revolve around playing 3 and 4 mana spells we may still need stifle to counteract the effects of wasteland. In fact I find myself saving stifle for that exact reason more and more often.

Anyway, just thought I would bring these questions up for discussion in NLT

[rancOr_]

About counterbalance, although I havent tested it yet,I know for sure it is not necessary to give up sideboard slots for that. The only matches where I would bring those in eg. Burn and UR burn except for RUG tempo I can handle pretty well without them. Also it seems pretty horrible vs UW as u dont want to tap out there the first few turns.. Im still undefeated against UWx stoneblade so I wont bother about that.

As for stifle vs pierce, I would never ever swap them. Not only does stifle give you the occasional free wins, but more importantly as u mentioned it protects you vs opposing wastes. I think this is quite huge. I can agree that some good players will play around it,but in doing so u alrdy have the same effect(more time) which is good as this is a CONTROL deck and u dont need to tap out alot first turns anyway. I board them out alot G2 vs certain decks but this shouldnt be a reason for cutting them from the MD.
Spell Pierce is certainly good ,thats why I play 2 in the sideboard.

[Endure2004]

agree with rancor, as cbalance top is not really what the deck wants to be doing. Stifle is a real skill tester in my opinion, as some players bust it on any target they see while others know when it is the most devastating and brainstorm it away when land death won't affect the opponent at all

[Endure2004]

Double top 8 Weekend: 5th and 4th in Vestal

My February NELC saw me bringing RUG control again to the tournament. I wasn’t sure if the deck would be on everyone’s radar since I came in 2nd last month with it, but there wasn’t much I would change anyways. Here’s the list that I brought:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 force of will
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Stifle
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
1 Dismember
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Mind Harness
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature’s Claim
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Red elemental blast
1 engineered explosives

The spots in my sideboard that were in flux were the Jace, the clique, the explosives, and the image. I made sure to keep track of how those slots did. The nature’s claim was a hedge against choke. On to the matches!

Round 1 Enchantress

Game 1
He has turn 1 mirri’s guile, but it finds him little action. I counter a couple of his enchantress effects and clique + goyf finish him off.

Sideboard: +1 Vendilion Clique +1 Jace TMS +2 spell pierce +1 Nature’s Claim +2 Relic of Progenitus +1 Engineered explosives
-4 Lightning Bolt -1 Dismember -1 Fire//Ice -2 Grim lavamancer

Game 2
I fight with a couple counterspells, trade an engineered explosives and a goyf for an enchantress, but he eventually lands an enchantress and runs away with it

Game 3
I see a couple of weird sideboard choices in his list, like orim’s chant. He casts a couple of those to protect some irrelevant spells (runed halo) while I let those resolve and counter his enchantress effects. Jace resolves, brainstorms, and I run him over with clique + more counterspells.

Round 2 UWg stoneforge control (green for sylvan library only)

Game 1
I was paired against a really nice guy Sam from NYC. My opening hand on the draw was 2 goyf, stifle, force, cantrip, land, land. He plays fetch, go. I play fetch, go. He plays wasteland, goes to fetch, but I stifle. He forces, I force back. I play two goyfs and beat him down. He dies.

Sideboarding: -4 Force of Will -4 Stifle -1 Dismember +2 Pyroblast +1 REB +1 Clique +1 Jace, TMS, +2 spell pierce, +1 nature’s claim, +1 ancient grudge

Game 2
We play draw go for awhile, and trade some irrelevant spells. Eventually I clique him, and I ship an Elspeth. He kills clique in response to the trigger. I cantrip into another clique and I see a wrath in his hand + some swords to plowshares. He draws a Jace which I REB then I play my own Jace while he’s holding wrath + swords. Jace crushes him under waves of brainstorms. He tells me afterward that sideboarding in wraths was a bad idea, which I agree with. I told him I boarded stifles out.

Round 3 Enchantress.

Game 1
Through shuffling he reveals a sterling grove accidentally. I ship a hand that loses to enchantress and keep on 6. I counter a couple enchantress effects, but he has GSZ which increases his threat density and he crushes me.

Sideboarding: -4 Bolt -1 Dismember -1 Fire//ice -2 Grim lavamancer +1 Nature’s claim +1 clique +1 Jace, TMS +2 spell pierce +1 engineered explosives +2 Relic of Progenitus

Game 2
This game is really close. It involves a clique and multiple counterspells, and eventually he lands an enchantress but I have stifle into snapcaster+ stifle on his draw triggers and he eventually dies to beats.

Game 3
Again, a really close game. I counter something like 3 enchantress effects, clique a 4th one away, and he draws a 5th off the clique trigger. I then proceeded to get curb stomped by massive amounts of card advantage.

Round 4 Aggro Loam

Game 1
This match is against the winner of last month’s NELC, David, who beat me in the finals. Great guy, always enjoyable to play against. He starts out mulliganing to 5 while I mull to 6. He has lots of loam into cycle lands action, and is able to beat me to death with some creatures + seismic assault. This matchup is tough.

Sideboarding: -4 Stifle -2 Force +2 Relic +2 mind harness +1 Clique +2 Spell pierce

Game 2
I clique him early and he’s light on action. I trade some spells with him while beating down and eventually bolt him out.

Game 3
This was a great game! We trade some spells and I spell pierce a seismic assault. I have clique beating down, and he plays countryside crusher. I preordain and I see mind harness, counterspell. I keep beating, wait till he grows his crusher to 7, then mind harnessed and killed him the next turn with it. Mind harness rooooooools!!!

Round 5 Aggro Loam

Game 1
I actually got paired against Bryant cook, and we both didn’t want to play each other, and then we got repaired. Whew. Unfortunately, the matchup I got was probably worse. This guy was playing countryside crusher, life from the loam, tarmogoyfs, seismic assault, knight of the reliquary, and punishing fire combo. Game 1 he plays goyf into an empty board and I’m lucky enough to be able to bolt his goyf to death. Unfortunately, he has a kotr and a crusher to follow up, and I can’t deal with both.

Sideboarding: -4 Stifle -2 Force of will, +2 relic, +2 mind harness, +1 Clique, +1 Jace, TMS

Game 2
I keep him off some big guys, and ride a clique to victory. Man, clique + some counterspells and removal really gets there for me. Flying fairy man is awesome.

Game 3
This one reminded me a lot of the last matchup. I clique him and we trade some spells, he lands a crusher while I’m holding mind harness, and at the last possible turn I mind harness his crusher with force backup. The look on his face when I played mind harness was priceless! He said something along the lines of, “well, I didn’t expect that card”. An attack step and a bolt later, he died. These are some tough matchups! I lose so many game 1’s !!

Round 6 T.E.S

Game 1
I get paired against Bryant cook, for reals this time. Game 1 he has a pretty good hand and tendrils the crap outta me.

Sideboarding: -4 Bolt -1 Dismember -2 Grim Lavamancer +2 Pyroblast +1 REB +2 Spell pierce +1 Clique +1 Jace

Game 2
He plays draw go for awhile, I play a goyf when I have enough mana to do it and hold up counterspells. I attack a couple of times, and he’s forced to go for it. He can’t generate enough storm, and tendrils me to 1 exactly!!!! I have two huge goyfs by then and they make short work of him in 2 turns.

Game 3
I have an early goyf, and disrupt him with wastelands. He’s land light and in the end, he knowingly walks a fetch into a stifle and he doesn’t have the resources to go off. Whew, what a match!

Round 7 I am 3rd or 4th in the swiss, so I ID into top 8! My second top 8 in vestal, two months in a row! Yay! I’ve gained some respect from big name players down there, who say I’m Eric English’s protégé. Not a bad way to be known!

Round 1 of Top 8

I get paired in a feature match against Doug Mckay. His deck is white weenie, with 4 maindeck relic of progenitus, blade splicer, stoneforge, squadron hawks, lots of equipment, mother of runes, and mirran crusader.

Game 1
He has some good action while I have a weak hand with force of will. I’m forced to burn it on an Elspeth, and he has good cards to follow up while I run out of gas.

Sideboarding: -3 force of will +1 Engineered explosives +1 Ancient Grudge +1 nature’s claim

Game 2
He has an early relic while my draw involves a grim and a snapcaster. Relic makes things really awkward for me and I spend several cards trading for his multiple hawks, since I didn’t have stifle or snare for it on the stack. Yuck. Eventually he draws some gas and I die. I end up 5th, and I take some cash and scramble to red lobster for delicious food.

My memory might be off on some of these matchups, it was a lot of magic that weekend! Forgive me if some of the fine details are lost…. Anyway, I get word from Greg Komar that there is a legacy GPT the next day, and that first place is a mox emerald. Woopie! I woke up in the morning the next day and made a snap decision to ride my “run good” wave for as long as possible.

GPT Indianapolis (24 people)
I brought the same list, except I cut the engineered explosives for a null rod, which could be wrong, I was just trying out different cards.

Round 1 against Sam UWg
This was the same Sam I played yesterday! Super nice guy, so I was happy to be paired against him.

Game 1
I have a goyf heavy draw, which doesn’t pare well with his triple spell snare, double snapcaster draw, and I die to snapcaster beats.

SB: +2 pyroblast, 2 spell pierce, 1 ancient grudge, 1 nature’s claim, 1 v clique, 1 JTMS -4 FOW 4 goyf 1 dismember
I switch it up this time, taking out goyfs instead of stifle, because tapping out early for goyf is a liability and you only want goyfs after trading a bunch of spells.

Game 2
The day before I told him after the match that I took stifles out, so he’s surprised by my early stifle/waste action and it takes him off of colored sources. Clique gets his beats in, and I counterspell a swords on my clique. A few attack steps later, he’s dead.

Game 3
Between these two games, I put my four goyfs in my deck, look through, and take them back out again to keep him guessing in case he’s paying attention. This game is long and grindy, while we trade a bunch of spells I concentrate on controlling the important spells, which I see to be clique and snapcaster. I am able to squeak out card advantage and eventually push through a Jace, which he can’t answer.

Round 2 against James Rynkiewicz (sorry about the name butchering) on UBW bitterblossom blade

Game 1
He has turn 1 inquisition into turn 2 bitterblossom. He removes my creatures through edicts and spell snares, and I die to faerie tokens holding a jitte.

SB: -4 FOW -2 JTMS -1 Dismember +1 ancient grudge, 1 nature’s claim, 2 spell pierce, 2 pyroblast, 1 REB

Game 2
He again has turn 1 discard turn 2 bitterblossom. The game evolves to a point where he has three lands, bitterblossom, and a couple of tokens, while I have volcanic, fetch, wasteland up. I have spell pierce, spell snare, bolt, bolt. He’s on 12 life and he casts thoughtseize. I’m at a decently healthy life total even though I have no blockers for his tokens. I would be in trouble if he has jitte, but I am in a good position if he doesn’t. I’m not sure what he would take out of my hand, probably a bolt if he doesn’t have jitte. I decide to get risky and go to bolt him twice. He unfortunately goes, land, jitte. I draw for my turn and it’s not a bolt, stifle, fire//ice, or a grudge. Yikes. My play might have been wrong, I could’ve held up countermagic in case he had jitte, so my play was probably a bit greedy. Sigh. I guess it was a punt.

Round 3 against Paul Lake on the same UWB list

Game 1
He has turn 3 bitterblossom, and I pressure him with a goyf. He eventually gets to a low life total, and a couple of bolts finish him off.

SB: -4 FOW -2 JTMS -1 Dismember +1 ancient grudge, 1 nature’s claim, 2 spell pierce,
2 pyroblast, 1 REB

Game 2
I have an early grim + goyf battling his bitterblossom, and he’s on the back foot. He has to use snapcaster defensively a couple of times, and the race is turning out favorably for me. He brainstorms once, snapcaster brainstorms again, and then plays Jace just to brainstorm, and keeps missing on white sources. I swing into his Jace to kill it and go back to working his life total. After I spell snare a couple snapcasters, he finally draws into a white source. I counterspell his swords, and he dies holding a hand of 2 swords, 2 stoneforge mystics.

Round 4 feature match against UWR blade

Game 1
He goes for turn 2 Stoneforge mystic, I snare, he forces, I force back. He proceeds to draw more snapcasters then I do, and I succumb to his mages and a geist.

SB: +2 pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 spell pierce, 1 ancient grudge, 1 phantasmal image, 1 nature’s claim, 1 clique, 1 JTMS -4 FOW -1 dismember -4 Goyf

Game 2
He has turn 2 mystic, I snare, he casts force of will. I pyroblast. YUM! He should definitely board out force of wills in this matchup. From there on in he’s low on cards and I get my mage beats on.

Game 3
We trade a bunch of cards, my hand is stacked, he lands a geist, but I rip phantasmal image for it. I eventually land a Jace and brainstorm the game away while he runs out of cards.

Round 5 ID
Second top 8 secured! Although it was just a 24 man tournament. 5-8th actually gets NOTHING for this tournament so there’s pressure to win round 1 of the top 8.

Round 1 of top 8 vs. Kevin Jones on UWR delver

Game 1
He’s on the play with turn 1 delver. I play around daze and bolt on 2 lands. He gets slightly greedy and forces. He’s stuck on island mishra’s factory while beating down with a flipped delver, and I cantrip into another bolt. From there on in I waste him to 1 land, and he never sees another land until I have a million goyfs beating him to death.

SB: +2 pyroblast 1 REB 2 spell pierce 1 phantasmal image 1 clique 1 Jace -4 FOW -4 stifle

Game 2
He again has turn 1 delver on the play and spell pierces my turn 2 bolt. He’s stuck on volcanic island and island while beating down with his delver. I hit land drops, take some damage, and then fire his delver on his upkeep. I waste him down to one land, then I REB a brainstorm, and he can’t recover while he dies to goyfs.

Round 2 of top 8 Feature match against Dan Rae on W/G maverick
Although he’s not playing stoneforge mystics, this matchup is horrible.

Game 1
We trade some early spells, and he lands an unanswered fauna shaman while I play a grim in response. He passes one turn without an activation. I go to fetch, and he pitches KOTR to flash in mindscensor at the end of his turn. I brainstorm in response, and I have to force of will to hit my fetchland activation. He kills grim, I kill his shaman, and we race my clique vs. his thalia. He plays mother of runes, and I dismember thalia. On his last possible turn, he plays scavenging ooze. The board his: him: ooze, mom, hierarch, heath, savannah, tundra, some tapped lands at 4 life. Me: lands, clique. My hand is stifle. I draw for the turn, it’s a fire//ice. I survey the board, and attack him to 1, and point fire at his face. He goes, activate ooze to gain one life, then activate again to gain one life. I stifle the second one!!!!!! Ok, fine, I’m a lucksack.

SB: +2 mind harness +2 relic of progenitus +1 nature’s claim +1 clique +1 JTMS +2 spell pierce -4 Stifle -1 FOW -4 Goyf

Game 2
He plays choke when I tap out to answer his KOTR. Then he plays garruk relentless. I die.

Game 3
He has a geist, I go to clique his combat step to block, and he mazes his geist so that his angel still hits me. I waste his maze, then while at 4 life I’m forced to trade clique with geist, then nature’s claim my own relic to stay alive. Then he plays KOTR and I concede.

A good tournament, I end up with 75$ in credit. I trade in a bunch of cards, and buy all the cards needed to build T.E.S, a deck I wanted to learn for fun. The maindeck is very tight, and I wouldn’t change anything there right now. My sideboard is still evolving, and after the tournament I trimmed some things. Right now it’s:
2 Pyroblast 2 REB 2 spell pierce 1 Clique 2 Mind harness 2 relic of progenitus 1 Ancient Grudge 1 Nature’s claim 2 Engineered explosives
This deck is very difficult to play, as there are lots of decisions and a lot of your cards vary greatly in how good they are in each matchup. That said, it’s powerful and flexible, and a great choice for any brainstorm lover!
That’s my tournament report! Thanks for reading everyone and keep playing tight!

[dsck]

Nice report(s).

You side out goyfs against maverick? No sb submerges, did you expect not to face any kotrs?

[Endure2004]

yeah, i'm not sure if it's right or not. Between kotrs and mother of runes and ooze, they have a lot of ways to blank your goyfs. In my matches against maverick, it seems as if goyfs always just get stalled on the ground. I wanted to play a more attritionish game with them and try to win with either clique beats or jace, or try and steal a kotr. I'm not sure if it's right or not.

[Mark Sun]

I had a dismal experience at Cinci over the weekend with a very similar list (59/60 maindeck, some changes in the sideboard). I wasn't feeling well from lack of sleep already and decided to drop at 1-2, with losses against RUG Delver (Justin Uppal who Top 4'ed, who played very well) and against GWu Maverick. When your opponents know to play around Submerge, the card gets so much worse.

I'd like to take some time and discuss the merits of Mind Harness vs. Submerge here if we can. It seems like against people with more experience I'd rather have the Mind Harness blowout instead of an actual shitty Time Walk effect.

Btw, congrats on your finishes this weekend. I'm sad Eric has a new asian protege :cry:

[Endure2004]

thanks dude, it's ok we can both be his proteges. anyone going to charlotte? btw, mind harness is insane. i haven't hardcore slammed it on a kotr yet, but mostly countryside crushers

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Submerge is good against bad players. Stick with Mind Harness aka do what the Europeans do.

[chinEsE girl]

It's ok, I can help you both, I'm an equal opportunity mentor with this deck. I can't say no if someone wants help piloting NLT.

As for the sb option of "hate on green creatures" I think mind harness is the best thing for the slot. I had some games way back at GP Austin where I played against a bant deck in the first round of an 8 man, and mind harness single handedly crushed him both games. If it was any other card I would have lost the match easily. Since the deck is set up with plenty of mana, the upkeep cost isn't as hefty as, say, it would be in RUG delver. Waiting for the right time to take a KotR or other monstrous threat is usually game ending. Otherwise, we'll have to see what the other sideboard slots should be moving forward. I too have thought a bit about EE in the deck, since I used to run it in the much older version of the deck (and hey, it's me, so how could I not run it?). More testing for that is necessary. The sb will definitely be the most important point of the deck going into the GP in a month.

[Einherjer]

Hello,
As I bought nearly the whole BUGR pool this deck fits exactly the cards I have. So I was building this deck and I really liked it so far versus various archetypes. But, how is this deck playing properly versus Maverick. As we do not have any Delvers available wed have to fight our way trough on the ground, which is, even with 2 Lavamancer mainboard quite a problem.

Any tips on that MU?
Thanks

As a starting point I copied Endures list - but I will change it for sure once my experience grows.

Greetings

[wcm8]

Maverick is a difficult matchup for most blue decks because almost every card can become a must answer if it's not already. Gaining card advantage is the key, so using sweeper effects at the right time can really give their deck trouble. In red, you have Fire/Ice, Grim Lavamancer, (Punishing Fire), Pyroclasm, Firespout (kind of overkill for their deck), and of course you have access to Jitte and engineered explosives. Blue has Hibernation as a way to slow them down but it doesn't completely solve the problem.

Obviously some of the best cards in this matchup are Massacre, Perish, Virtue's Ruin, Pernicious Deed, Wrath of God/Damnation, but these aren't accessible to a RUG deck.

Even with all of these spells, sometimes the Maverick player can just follow up with a Choke or Thrun and crush you anyways. The deck is after all designed to beat blue decks.

[Endure2004]

Yes, the maverick matchup is difficult. I have tested it a decent amount with my playtest group, and you have to play super tight, and get slightly lucky. Right now my board is:

2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Mind Harness

The important cards out of their deck that you have to be aware of include:
mother of runes
scavenging ooze
stoneforge / equipment
knight of the reliquary
elspeth
choke

Going on from here I would bring in 2 ancient grudge, 1 nature's claim, 3 mind harness against them for sure. The spell pierces and the clique are debatable. As for taking things out, you definitely take out stifles, and probably 2 force of wills. The value of tarmogoyf is debatable, but for now i would leave him in. Your goal is to control the board, killing their random 1/1's with fire/ice and lavaman, have an ancient grudge for their equipment, and win through clique beats, jace, or mind harness. It is very tough, but the best you can do is play perfectly and hope to get lucky. The matchup is definitely tough, but not unwinnable.

[Endure2004]

another tournament report for you guys, shorter this time
This was a 26 man tourny in El mira, NY at mythic games. You guys know my list by now, so i'll dive right into the games.

Round 1 against RUG delver

Game 1
He has turn 1 delver on the play, Force of wills by turn 2 bolt (playing around daze). I can trip into another removal spell while taking a bunch of damage, go to fire/ice his delver, and he has another force of will. Suddenly I'm dead.

Game 2
We play a bunch of draw go, he leaves forces in, i'm able to push through goyfs, he loses.

Game 3
We play draw go, he surgicals my bolts, i bolt him in response to get it out of my hand. Then I clique him, see him holding more surgicals, and proceed to clock him to death.

Round 2 against 4 color counterbalance Natural order

Game 1
His mana base is messy, and after i waste him, he's at island with a top in play to my grim. I eventually land goyfs and he can't find more lands in time.

Game 2
I kill 2 rox war monks, beat with clique in the air, punish him with wasteland, and I get there.

Round 3 against Ryan McKinney on reanimator

Game 1
I mull to five he keeps on seven. My hand is land land stifle stifle counterspell. On turn 4 or so he fetches, looking at me. I let it resolve. No point in stifling fetches when he's got all the lands he needs. He casts animate dead. I stifle. He forces, I stifle again. The following turn, he reanimates. I counterspell. Yup, I'm a lucksack. I beat down with goyfs.

Game 2
We play draw go, I have a relic working his yard. I think I mulled to 6. He plays a tombstalker, I let it resolve and i take a hit. I clique him, see daze, and some other stuff. I let him keep. I dismember tombstalker, he dazes. I untap and slam Jace, bounce tombstalker. From there on in I brainstorm a million times and its over.

Rounds 4 and 5 ID

Top 8 Round 1

against Bant stoneblade

Game 1
Dont remember all that much, cept that he smashes me, i think with KOTR

Game 2
We trade spells, I clique him late in the game, attack with it a bunch of times, and bolt him to death.

Game 3
This one was a doozy. We trade some spells, and he lands a KOTR which i can't counter. Shit. End step brainstorm, untap, fetch, brainstorm, see a mind harness. GET OVER HERE! i say to KOTR, ala scorpion from mortal kombat. He has maze, so I sac my trop to go waste his maze, and then attack with KOTR. He's low on life, and ends up swordsing his own KOTR. We're both empty handed, he has a jitte on board with 2 counters. I rip goyf. He rips noble hierarch. I survey the board, its my goyf to his hierarch equipped with jitte with 2 counters. I'm holding spell pierce and 2 fetchlands. he has no cards in hand. goyf is a 6/7 (mind harness and JTMS in my yard). On his turn, he attacks, and I snap block. He immediately pumps twice with jitte, realizes that his hierarch still dies, tilts, and passes the turn without killing my goyf with the new jitte counters. I attack him to 1. He draws, rips GOYF!!! he plays goyf equips. I draw, and its FIRE/ICE!!!! Ice your goyf, attack for 6. Just barely enough. What a game.

round 2 of top 8 against red sneak attack / into the breach

This was against my good friend and playtest partner Henry, congrats to him on the top 8!

Game 1
He uses some rituals to go chalice on 2, my hand involves counterspells and goyfs, so i have to force. He uses another ritual to try it again, I force again. I wasted him once and play goyf. I goes for pyromancy, and i have yet another force.

Game 2
I spell pierce a chalice. I think i have goyfs and a small amount of disruption, and it gets there.

Finals against WW Doug Mckay

Doug crushed me in the top 8 at jupiter, yowza!

Game 1
He has a couple blade splicers, i remove the golem tokens, he ends up landing some equipment that gets there.

Game 2
he has an early stoneforge, i remove it and untap into Jace on an empty board. he resolves squadron hawk. I play 3 goyfs, and tempo him out with bolt, dismember, and bouncing hawks with jace (never thought I'd bounce hawks with jace)

Game 3
We trade some spells, I'm able to deal with everything he played, and then he plays elspeth. I die.

So I ended up 2nd, got some foils for this deck. Engineered Explosives underperformed, so I took it out. See my previous post for my current sideboard. Keep playing tight everyone!

[Zirath]

Eric, Ning and I (Timur) were talking about the sideboard today, in particular swarmy G/W decks, and I thought that a second Fire//Ice would be better than Surgical Extraction. Surgical, while good for decks like Stoneblade which have limited strong Snapcaster targets and have a horrible Dredge and an okay Reanimator match up, is much worse in NLT. Dredge is realistically the only match up where you want Surgical since Pyroblast does tremendous amounts of work against Reanimator combined with the fact that your removal is much better. Otherwise, Surgical is too narrow to be useful against many other decks since your colors gives you more angles of attack.

From testing Maverick with Ning and watching him get crushed by Doug, a sweeper or some sort of clean up spell is really necessary. All of our games devolved to me equipping Dryad Arbor or Hierarch with a sword and killing him in a few turns. This indicates to me that the sweeper needs to be instant speed to get around play -> equip. It also needs to be cheap, since those decks will Waste you back when you sit on lands since they have more mana than you. Fire/Ice is much faster and more flexible than almost any other alternative, which is essentially Forked Bolt, Engineered Explosives, Firespout, Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm (I only listed ones that I thought would actually be relevant sweepers). A 3rd Grim is another option but my issue is that Grim eats a lot of resources, is vulnerable to spot removal and is easier to play around. Fire or Snap->Fire is harder to answer with the exception of Spell Snare. No deck where you want the second Fire//Ice will be playing Spell Snare, with the possible exception of Bant.

I thought I'd just throw my 2 cents up here in case anyone else had some thoughts.

[copywriter]

Hi

Since I'm new, I would like to introduce myself. My name is Jørgen, and I'm 32 and from Norway. I used to play magic a long time ago, the quit during Odyssey, then started about a year ago again. I'm lucky enough to have a good job and I therefor have "all the cards" needed for almost every deck in Legacy.
I'm looking forward to posting on this forum. I love discussing, and I love Legacy.

Concerning NTL:
I got a tournament on Sunday, and I'm thinking about playing NTL (or Bant). The metagame is quite random, all depending on who shows up. It's everything from Dredge to Tempo Rug, Reanimator to Merfolk. It's hard to predict what's a good meta call or not.

I really like NTL. It has a lot of play, includes blue and has great options in the sideboard.
I have some questions though. I hope some of you have some thoughts.

This is my current list:

4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
1 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

Sideboard:

2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Gilded Drake
2 Mind Harness
1 Firespout
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze

Obviously, Punishing Fire & Grove of the Burnwillows. Have anyone tested it out? Is it redundant? It does mess up the mana base a bit, and it is perhaps a bit slow. But combined with Life from the Loam it makes for one great late game.
It's also good (obviously) against Mother of Runes, and winning the Goyf-wars against Tempo RUG.

Stilfe vs Spell Pierce. My thought is that since I'm RUG I will get a lot of respect for playing Stifle (as in RUG Tempo). Probably goes for Daze as well. Anyone cut Stifle for Spell Pierce? Any learnings?

I've replaced one Vendillion Clique for a Thrun, the Last Troll. Feels like Hexproof is the real deal, and it feels like a nice top deck in the blue match ups. Might not be correct though.

Also, 1 Spell Snare has turned into 1 Counterspell. With 3 Punishing Fire it feels like two drops aren't that big of a problem to deal with. Three drops on the other hand. Knight of the Reliquary and Geist of St Traft have been a handfull in testing (as you probably all know).

By the way: Have anyone tested more basics main and Blood Moon in the sideboard?

Really looking forward to hearing from all of you, and especially Eric (since he seems to be the Grand Master of NTL).

Thanks!


Jørgen

[chinEsE girl]

Hey Jørgen, let's see if I can answer some of those questions you asked.

The punishing fires idea has been kicked around a bit, but the biggest issue, as you said yourself, is the mana constraints. One of the biggest strengths of this deck, is that unlike some other versions of blue control, you can always get your blue sources early, and protect them easily. You either can use stifle to protect yourself from opposing wastes, or you can just fetch a basic island and still easily cast a ton of your spells. Having a bunch of groves reduces the number of blue producing lands, but maybe it is worth it. I'm not really sure. It also does keep you from running a basic mountain, which has actually won me games in the past. I'd suggest estimating the number of opposing creature based decks in your meta, and basing the P fires decision on that. If you know you'll face a bunch of creatures, give it a shot.

As to spell pierce vs stifle, a lot of talk is going on in the RUG delver thread about it (Razorwynd brought it up) but I still really like stifle. Call me old fashioned or whatever, but I still like the utility that stifle brings to the table. Also, if all the RUG delver players start adapting spell pierce en masse, that actually makes stifle stronger. Players preparing for the GP will see the shift, and thus not worry so much about stifle out of delver. Thing is, this deck isn't delver, and plays way differently. Being able to make your opponent play around daze when you don't have it, and then walk into stifle cuz they think you don't have it, is a pretty sweet feeling. I will say though that stifle is much weaker in an underdeveloped metagame. If that's the case for you, run spell pierce and more copies of counterspell. Random decks might not be good targets for stifle, but they are quite likely weak to good old UU counter target spell. Especially when you snapcaster it back, then play Jace to crush them with card advantage.

Thrun is something I had in my sideboard for the longest time, but stopped running because double green was such a pain to get out. Your list runs a lot more green sources due to groves though, so it actually works really well for you. A lot of Ux control decks really have issues with Thrun, so if your mana base can easily support him, he can be very powerful.

The spell snare/counterspell count is actually smaller than I run (which is 3 and 2) but you definitely want at least some copies of each. I usually recommend at least 3 spell snare, cuz that card is the bees knees, but you can get by with 2. You definitely need counterspell for dealing with KotR in reasonable fashion, so make sure you have some number of counterspell maindeck.

Funny you ask about the blood moon plan, but I used to have a friend who played a thresh deck ages ago that ran magus of the moon sideboard. He had several basics and sometimes just crushed decks out of nowhere by playing a moon and riding it to victory. I wouldn't suggest that line in the current meta though, because both UW and maverick run plenty of fetchable basics, and delver can work off of mountains very easily. It could work for small metas that are high in non basic lands, but I wouldn't suggest it at larger tournaments.

I hoped that helped answer your questions a bit!

[copywriter]

Hi Eric, and everyone else.

Thanks for the quick reply. Really helpful to read your thoughts. I feel enlightened.

First of all: could I ask you for an updated deck list? The version you are running at the moment? (I understand if it’s to close to the GP to make it public). Is it the one in the primer on page 1?

I’ve tested a bit against Bant and Maverick, and if Geist of St Traft, Sword of Feast and Famine or Knight of the Reliquary hit the table…it was almost game over on the spot. I’ve been thinking about Firespout. Could it replace Fire/Ice? With the Snapcaster+Lightning Bolt package it seems like we got enough spot removal to deal with Mother of Runes, Stoneforge, “Goyf Wars”, etc. But Firespout would really help against the double Delver start, Nimble Mongoose, Geist of St Traft, etc. Thoughts?

Also, are you playing control or aggro versus UW Blade. Both seems like an option. Is it only dependent on the draw? Does it change after side boarding?
Would be nice to hear your thoughts about the sideboard in general as well. 2 or 3 Mind Harness? Up the number of grave hate after the printing of Faithless Looting?

Cutting Punishing Fire calls for more Spell Snares. Absolutely. And good mana is vital. After all, it is a big part of makes UW Blade good, and BUG not so good at the moment.

Have you tried out Sylvan Library? Or replacing Preordain with Sensei’s Divining Top? What about replacing a Tarmogoyf for a Scavenging Ooze? I also fooled around a couple of hours with 3 Gitaxian Probes. It was nice, but a bit to cute.

Good point about the Blood Moon / Magus of the Moon option. I don’t think Maverick (without a resolved Noble Hierarch) have enough basics to deal with it (The Punishing Fire version runs only 1 basic Forest if I recall correctly), but against both UW Blade and RUG Delver it seems like a dead card. “Problem” solved. Thanks.

The meta isn’t really underdeveloped, if that means random decks. There are a lot of the “normal decks”, it’s just that it’s constantly changing. Which is good I guess. And I do see the versatility in Stifle. It's just a really bad top deck… Then again, I should probably listen to you since you do have experience with the deck, and the Stifle or not question.

A lot of questions, and I even held some back, haha. I’ve read the entire tread, but since Legacy is constantly changing some old truths might not be true any longer. I’m sorry if the questions been answered before.
This deck really fascinates me, and I would love to master it, play around with it and talk about it. Perhaps NLT could be described as “the good players version of RUG”? Or “the grown up RUG”? I don’t know ☺

Finally: Chaos Warp? Really? Is that the best option? What's the reasoning behind it? Is it just a tech?

Again, thanks for answering! Looking forward to your next reply.

Best wishes from cold and snowy Norway


Jørgen

[Zirath]

Keep in mind that Punishing Fire directly competes with Grim Lavamancer; you have to cut cards that can go in your graveyard (in your case, you've cut a spell, a mountain and a wasteland) and add cards that you never want Grim eating to power Punishing Fire. You are also opening yourself up to Wasteland, which will probably make you want Life from the Loam to keep the engine strong against decks that can spare their Wastes for Grove.

With Grove, you get a lot more green support, but normally, NLT only runs 3 green sources, so you're pretty thin on green. This makes Goyf better than almost all other green creatures since you will only want to fetch up a Trop.

From watching this deck played, Firespout is really slow and clunky.

Blood Moon is the strongest when it is played on turn 1-2. After that, it loses a lot of it potency because people will have found basics for Wasteland.

Stifle has a lot of applications game 1, but loses it's power in the second game due to people playing around it. There many abilities worth stopping with it but you will expect to board it out a lot.

As far as other draw engines go, the deck is highly reactive. The only time you want to cast something during your main phase is because you are way ahead (stuck a Jace), you are trying to sculpt your hand (Preordain, Brainstorm) or you can protect your drop (Goyf/Jace holding permission/removal). This deck doesn't usually want to stick a turn 2 Goyf because you aren't holding Daze and burning FoW to answer a Knight sucks. Since two of your primary creatures have flash, you can play Draw-Go for quite a while before needing to drop something substantial. Library was really good in NO RUG, where you had Daze and MM in addition to FoW and you had a ton of mana; I don't see it being as strong here from a theorycraft perspective.

[copywriter]

Keep in mind that Punishing Fire directly competes with Grim Lavamancer; you have to cut cards that can go in your graveyard (in your case, you've cut a spell, a mountain and a wasteland) and add cards that you never want Grim eating to power Punishing Fire. You are also opening yourself up to Wasteland, which will probably make you want Life from the Loam to keep the engine strong against decks that can spare their Wastes for Grove.

With Grove, you get a lot more green support, but normally, NLT only runs 3 green sources, so you're pretty thin on green. This makes Goyf better than almost all other green creatures since you will only want to fetch up a Trop.

From watching this deck played, Firespout is really slow and clunky.

Blood Moon is the strongest when it is played on turn 1-2. After that, it loses a lot of it potency because people will have found basics for Wasteland.

Stifle has a lot of applications game 1, but loses it's power in the second game due to people playing around it. There many abilities worth stopping with it but you will expect to board it out a lot.

As far as other draw engines go, the deck is highly reactive. The only time you want to cast something during your main phase is because you are way ahead (stuck a Jace), you are trying to sculpt your hand (Preordain, Brainstorm) or you can protect your drop (Goyf/Jace holding permission/removal). This deck doesn't usually want to stick a turn 2 Goyf because you aren't holding Daze and burning FoW to answer a Knight sucks. Since two of your primary creatures have flash, you can play Draw-Go for quite a while before needing to drop something substantial. Library was really good in NO RUG, where you had Daze and MM in addition to FoW and you had a ton of mana; I don't see it being as strong here from a theorycraft perspective.


Hi

More valid points for dropping the Punishing Fire + Grove combo. Grim Lavamancer already has enough dyssynergy with Snapcaster and Goyf, so it seems fair not included yet another plan that makes it bad. Switching Lavamancers for Punishing Fires doesn't seem good either since we create mana problems and makes ourselves weak to Wasteland.

Your thoughts about Goyf and three sources also makes sense. We really don't care about getting our Trops wasted if we got a Goyf in play.

Firespout: Could you elaborate a bit? I fully agree that tapping out for 3 mana at sorcery speed is not optimal... but it does solve at lot of problems, aka Hexproof and if we get swarmed.

I think Blood Moon is to narrow. I believe it's good after turn 1-2 as well, but only against certain decks at certain times. Perhaps in the future.

I think the point about Sylvan is really spot on. Have you tested to swap Preordain for Top? Or Ponder?

Stifle: I agree, and disagree. I mean, if Stifle is good game 1, which I think it is, isn't is almost just as good having people play around it? Having Spell Pierce instead gives us more reach, can protect us from opposing Stifles, STPS and gives us a way to force trough Jace on turn 5, but makes ut a bit weaker against Wasteland.
I think they are both valiable options. Could we run both? A 3-3 split perhaps? Perhaps not? Hmmm...

How do you feel about our matchup against Dredge now? I really hate that deck, and I really don't want to loose to it. How many sideboard slots do you dedicate to graveyard hate?

Thanks!


Jørgen

[rancOr_]

I'm still sure 4 spell snare is the best.Format is too much defined by 2 drops. I also play a one off loam md , so much value and makes ur lavamancers better(I play 3md)1 side. I've never had any problems with dredge,the combination of my 2 relic 1 tormod 2 surgical seems to work great.

[Zirath]

We are talking about sideboard options. In game 2, you have Ancient Grudge alongside your sweeper. Firespout does not get around equipment, which is an actual problem. You don't want to get stuck with Spout in hand and be facing down a Sworded Geist which you can slay with a Snapcaster Mage, Clique or Goyf. Otherwise, you have to deal with creatures like Mother of Runes, Scryb Ranger and other annoying 1/1s which you don't even want to blow Firespout to kill 1-2. Fire//Ice feels okay to use if you get a 2 for 1, since you can do it without tapping out and exposing yourself to a threat you have to blow Force on.

Swarming isn't a big issue since there is a lot of removal with Grim. Hexproof is annoying but equipment is the real killer in those match ups.

This deck used to run Ponder. But Preordain is actually legitimately better in a control deck; you don't have to waste your fetches to ditch cards and it is a stronger turn 1 play. Top is really mana hungry. Only decks that have little to do with their mana can run it and they usually run 23 land instead of 21. Each cantrip allows you to cut on land and cheat on slots a little bit.

Stifle provides one thing that Spell Pierce does not: A nut draw. Imagine a starting hand of Stifle, Stifle, Waste, Blue Source, three other cards. That hand can rip apart many decks in the format. You protect yourself from Wastelands, negate Fetches, even stop Rift Bolt (Burn isn't a spectacular match up). Spell Pierce isn't bad but it is just another card that makes the deck defensive. Stifle gives you more avenues of attack by aggressively attacking a plan. Pierce is really important in combo match ups and in Jace mirrors.

Dredge is a horrid match up. We've tested it a lot and Ichorid + Bridge is brutal. Even Ichorid alone is a problem since you can't gain life and they can just run out the clock on you. As rancOr_ pointed out, unless you devote an excessive amount of board space to hate, it's not a good match up. Relic and two Surgical can get there, but you weaken other match ups (like Maverick).

[Endure2004]

I used to think about cutting preordain. Then I played with it, and the more i played with it the more i realized that it's nuts. lets me cheat on lands, and is oftentimes during gameplay basically ancestral. I always find myself looking for something (land, force of will, threat) and can go bottom, bottom, draw. This deck is very flexible, and can go offensive really quickly. Not so if you decide to run divining top. Top changes the dynamic completely. You spend a card and a bunch of mana to try and go up on cards. That is a control player's goal, and fine if you want to play a long game. This deck wants to be able to switch into aggro mode really quickly. Don't play top.

[Endure2004]

also regarding stifle: This card next to brainstorm is one of the biggest skill testers on both sides of the table. People who don't play around it get crushed by it, and people who don't know how to play the card get crushed by their bad play. YOU DON'T AUTO TARGET FETCHLANDS!!!!!!!!! If they're fine on mana and you aren't getting a tempo advantage, save it to brainstorm away or to pitch to force. Against reanimator, i kept a hand (mull to 5) of land, land, stifle, stifle, counterspell. I had 2-3 opportunities to stifle fetches within the first handful of turns but i didn't, cuz he had a lot of lands in play and reanimator works off 1-2 lands. Eventually he went for animate dead with force backup and i destroyed him with double stifle. moral of the story: do not just blind jam your stifle because you can. think about whether it is actually doing anything, and think about how you can get the most value out of your card.

[Endure2004]

been doing a decent amount of testing in preparation for GP Indy. My sideboard at the moment:

2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
2 Mind Harness
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim
1 Engineered Explosives

The matchup I have been focusing on has been GW maverick. The grim lavamancer in the board needs to come in against that deck, as mother of runes is a problem unanswered. I also bring in the explosives, and that card has been good in testing in blowing up multiple 1 drops. Clique is good against their slower draws, but I'm not sure if I need to board that in yet. The artifact destruction is a must against them. The matchup is close, but their trumps are a little better than yours. I no longer think boarding out goyfs is the right answer, as Thrun is a big problem that needs to be answered. Right now I go for -4 Stifle -2 FOW -1 goyf -1 snare +1 grim +2 mind harness +2 Ancient grudge +1 nature's claim +1 clique +1 EE. I'm not sure how right that is, as it matters how the list you're battling is set up, but in testing the matchups have been decently close.

The other two matches that I'm concerned about are RUG delver + mongoose and dredge. Dredge there's not that much to say about, all we can really do is add a 3rd graveyard hate option. The old RUG delver lists without mongoose don't pose a problem but the ones with mongoose do. Has anyone done any testing against this? my plan is to take out Jaces and bring in mind harness, EE, relic, ....but I have not actually played it out. Let me know your experiences. I'm not sure about the 3rd clique in my board. I've brought it in a lot, it's been really good when I brought it in, but usually it gets brought it against decks that I already have a good or decent matchup against already. It's great against any sort of non-dredge combo deck, control deck, or any deck that wants to grind. However, I'm wondering if the spot could be used for an extra graveyard hate spot in the board or something else. Maybe I want to just try and sidestep dredge at this GP, tho I'm not sure how likely it is. What do you guys think?

[dsck]

been doing a decent amount of testing in preparation for GP Indy. My sideboard at the moment:

2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
2 Mind Harness
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim
1 Engineered Explosives

The matchup I have been focusing on has been GW maverick. The grim lavamancer in the board needs to come in against that deck, as mother of runes is a problem unanswered. I also bring in the explosives, and that card has been good in testing in blowing up multiple 1 drops. Clique is good against their slower draws, but I'm not sure if I need to board that in yet. The artifact destruction is a must against them. The matchup is close, but their trumps are a little better than yours. I no longer think boarding out goyfs is the right answer, as Thrun is a big problem that needs to be answered. Right now I go for -4 Stifle -2 FOW -1 goyf -1 snare +1 grim +2 mind harness +2 Ancient grudge +1 nature's claim +1 clique +1 EE. I'm not sure how right that is, as it matters how the list you're battling is set up, but in testing the matchups have been decently close.

The other two matches that I'm concerned about are RUG delver + mongoose and dredge. Dredge there's not that much to say about, all we can really do is add a 3rd graveyard hate option. The old RUG delver lists without mongoose don't pose a problem but the ones with mongoose do. Has anyone done any testing against this? my plan is to take out Jaces and bring in mind harness, EE, relic, ....but I have not actually played it out. Let me know your experiences. I'm not sure about the 3rd clique in my board. I've brought it in a lot, it's been really good when I brought it in, but usually it gets brought it against decks that I already have a good or decent matchup against already. It's great against any sort of non-dredge combo deck, control deck, or any deck that wants to grind. However, I'm wondering if the spot could be used for an extra graveyard hate spot in the board or something else. Maybe I want to just try and sidestep dredge at this GP, tho I'm not sure how likely it is. What do you guys think?

My list for reference:
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fire // Ice
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Preordain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 2 Mind Harness
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Sylvan Library

SB against GW Maverick:
+2 Mind Harnes, +2 Submerge, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Relic of Progenitus, + 1 Sylvan Library
-4 Force of Will, -2 Stifle, -3 Spell Snare, -2 Vendilion Clique

Just try to keep the table clean and get Sylvan or Jace down to dig for whatever you need and get card advantage.

Against RUG Delver with mongooses you want rebs (kills delver, protects your spells from snare etc.) and relics to keep mongooses 1/1 (only breaking them in the worst case scenario as they have stifles). Sylvan Library is awesome here as well.

Dredge is though, if you feel its very relevant matchup add 2 Surgicals on top of having 1 tormod and 2 relic.

[rancOr_]

Ive played vs a fair amount of RUGdelver both in testing and sanctioned, thus far I have won most of them but the games are always very very close. As u said the mongooses make it much harder but its doable. I board like this : -4fow,-2 jace, -2 counterspell +2 relic, +2 spell pierce, +1 grim, + 3 REB. I dont think u are playing with LftL but this card is also huge here.. as against so many other decks, I can only recommend it. I dont bring in surgicals here as sometimes they are dead and that can mean gg vs a deck like TT.
I wouldnt bring in mind harness. The only target are their Goyfs,and they will bring in REBs for sure so they can even destroy it. Plan here is always keep snare open for potential goyfs (or counterbalance) post side if they play it.
My sideboard has looked like this the last 7months and its been doing really good: 2relic 1 tormod, 1grim,2mind harness, 1grudge,4 REB,2spell pierce, 2surgical.
I dont think u really need the Clique in side and if u cut something else u can go +2 surgicals. I mean the Clique is vs combo etc where u are already doing good. I have faced Ichorid 6 times and won them all so far.
Against Maverick I never board out Tarmogoyf,and if they play P. fire I mostly board in 1-(2) surgicals aswell. I really like the one off claim ur playing, have to test that aswell,since its another answer to choke etc!

[Endure2004]

What's up all, just wanted to let you know I top 8'd another NELC at Jupiter Games, that's 3 NELC's in a row and 5 legacy events in a row that I've top 8'd. The deck is treating me very well. Expect a tournament report soon.

[Endure2004]

here's my report for gp Indy:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23340-77th-at-GP-Indianapolis-with-NLT

[rancOr_]

Nice finish. Why would u want to cut stifle?I still think its one of the better cards in the deck. Played in 2tournaments agn got 10th of 104 and 3th of 44. So I tried the crucible again instead of the loam I was playing and cut a waste for a one off mishra. It worked pretty good and it's not like I'm missing that waste. Played with 2f/I they are pretty good aswell atm but still not sure if there should be a dismember instead of a fire. Cut the clique completely now, was only playing one.

[Endure2004]

I've just been siding out stifle in almost every matchup, so I wanted to try a build without it. I'm not sure if it is correct or not, it's just an experiment for now. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Razorwynd]

I've just been siding out stifle in almost every matchup, so I wanted to try a build without it. I'm not sure if it is correct or not, it's just an experiment for now. I'll let you know how it goes.

Let us know how it goes! I have been very happy with them. The list I have been on is nearly identical to the one you took to Indy.

Mainboard
-1 Preordain
-1 Dismember
+1 Fire//Ice
+1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard
-1 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Natures Claim
-1 Mind Harness
-1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Surgical Extraction

I really like the Sylvan Library main board it complements Jace very nicely.

[bondfan]

I've been playing this deck with 21 lands for about a year now and I've always wanted to include the 22nd land. I started out 5-1 at Indy but lost 2 in a row to RUG and Maverick. I feel that as long as you get up to 4 lands against RUG, you should be fine. Now that they run mongeese, I've considered dropping 4x stifle for 1 taiga, 2 EE and 1 sylvan. As for Maverick, dealing with knight and choke is a pain. My board against Mav was 3x mind harness and whenever I drew the harness, I was just getting choked out of the game. Cards I've considered were replacing ancient grudges with nature claim's or running cursed totems.

[yutang]

How is the testing for this deck going?

Stifles seem too critical/important to this deck's strategy to be cut. Also how does this deck fare in a meta with Esperblade, Maverick and RUG Delver? Is it poorly positioned?

Also Sulfur Elemental seems like a new 1 of SB card

[rancOr_]

I run a one off sulfur elemental side now where I had an ee first. Might make spot for a 2nd as its really good vs maverick obv. I still think that stifle is needed,but im testing a build now with delver in their place. Playing with 2fire//ice md is also quite nice.

[dsck]

I have played a bit less lately (not many tournaments locally as of late) and when I have played I usually finish 3-2 due losing to some random matchups like Burn/Dredge/Stax/Painter.

Last weekend I managed to sneak into top 8 in small tournament and today I split finals in another small tournament.

Current list:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle

2 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Forked Bolt

1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sulfur Elemental


I havent had yet chance to test Loam, it could be better than the 3rd sorcery cantrip. I've liked the consistency the 3rd cantrip gives as I used to lose games when I couldnt find removal or Goyf.

If I were to go larger tournament I'd definitely want 4th grave hate and 3rd spell pierce in the SB but theres no room :(

With Miracle cards coming soon have you guys given Predict some consideration?

[Scordata]

I've been running predict in Canadian thresh for a few weeks. It has been fine - but I've never directly won any games with it. Drawing 2 is pretty sweet - but if you're metagaming for shitty timewalk effects already I think you may be doing it wrong.

The coolest thing I've done so far is knock a FOW off the top of opponents library when he revealed it to delver. He ended up drawing a sumberge for the win. Go figure.

[Endure2004]

hey all, just updating you all on my list. I've been making some changes, and here's what I'm running currently:

2 grim lavamancer
4 tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion clique
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
3 snapcaster mage

4 brainstorm
3 preordain

4 force of will
2 counterspell
3 spell snare
3 spell pierce

4 lightning bolt
1 fire/ice
1 forked bolt

3 volcanic island
4 tropical island
2 island
1 mountain
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
4 wasteland

sideboard
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 surgical extraction
2 relic of progenitus
2 mind harness
1 grim lavamancer
2 sulfur elemental
2 ancient grudge
1 nature's claim
1 sower of temptation

N
some notes:
preordain has been really good for me, so i wanted the 3rd
dismember has been sucking, it got cut
sower entered the board because most maverick lists are running 4 swords and thats it for removal, so sowering a knight of an ooze should be huge
lingering souls is tough to beat, thus the forked bolt main for the dismember and the 2 sulfur elementals
4 stifles became the 4th trop (22nd land) and 3 spell pierce

i didn't do too hot at the last NELC, but that was because i was running storm combo hahahahahaha. I'm gonna go back to my roots and run this deck from now on, it's treated me the best. let me know your thoughts

[dsck]

but if you're metagaming for shitty timewalk effects already I think you may be doing it wrong.

There will be bunch of people trying to break it in the next few tournaments when it has been released but yeah seems bit silly to overprepare.


@ Endure

Having Pierces instead stifles MD opens good amount sb slots which seems awesome. I may try stifleless list sometime soon and see how it goes.

[bondfan]

Dropped Stifles for 3x Pierce and the 22nd land. Been testing 1 Underground Sea for Perish in the board and seems good.

[rancOr_]

I can see that working as Ive alrdy tested it in the past with -1 waste +1 sea for 2perish side. Let us know how it goes for u.
Still dont see any reason to cut stifles though,they are just too good.

[Razorwynd]

I am assuming the parish is for the delver and to a lesser extent maverick matchups?

I do not see how that is even a remotely good idea (though I would be interested to hear your testing results)...

That plan requires you to fetch out a "one-of" land against a deck that plays 4x wasteland and 4x stifle. This required to even play one of two 3cc cards you boarded in, all the while being able to play around daze and or spell pierce. Not to mention the fact that all of this is in a deck that itself plays 4x tarmogoyf (which is one of you best cards against RUG delver). Seems ambitious to me.

I have been pretty impressed with engineered explosives (which is strong in a number of matchups) at zero or one for RUG and 1 and 3 for maverick. Unfortunately, it is also a little weak to stifle, but certainly easier to resolve and much less damaging to you own permanents.


Right now my sideboard looks like:

2 Natures Claim
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Life From the Loam

With the following Main Deck:
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyg
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique

2 Jace, The Mindsculptor

1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire//Ice
4 Brainstrom
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare

2 Preordain

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

I have been thinking of cutting one Island for a Taiga as a little extra help against choke.

[yutang]

The Perish is obviously for the Maverick matchup which is this deck's worst matchup.

[bondfan]

I'm running a 22nd land as I've been noticing whenever I Preordain, I'm usually looking for land. The Sea hasn't hurt me at all in testing. It also allows EE at 4.

[Razorwynd]

The Perish is obviously for the Maverick matchup which is this deck's worst matchup.

I have noticed the white creatures in Maverick are just as problematic as the green... which is part of the reason why I play Sulfur Elemental.

[Mark Sun]

I have noticed the white creatures in Maverick are just as problematic as the green... which is part of the reason why I play Sulfur Elemental.

The most threatening green creature you are worried about (Knight of the Reliquary) also happens to be white. If you are worried about that kind of stuff and are willing to play an Underground Sea for a board sweeper, isn't Virtue's Ruin just better?

[Endure2004]

i don't like the black splash, i feel as if it's unnecessary at the moment. here's my list so far:

4 tarmogoyf
3 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique
3 jace tms
2 grim lavamancer

4 brainstorm
3 preordain

4 force of will
2 counterspell
2 spell pierce
3 spell snare

4 lightning bolt
2 fire/ice

4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
4 volcanic island
3 tropical island
2 island
1 mountain
4 wasteland

sb
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 spell pierce
3 relic of progenitus
2 mind harness
2 sulfur elemental
1 grim lavamancer
2 ancient grudge
1 nature's claim

with this setup, you shouldn't need black to be able to handle kotr. you can burn her, then pop relic to kill her and draw a card, you can mind harness, jace and bounce, counterspell, and i usually leave in 2 forces against maverick. playing tight and managing your resources well is a better option than getting greedy with a 4th color. the sideboard plan shores up many of the bad matchups, as 3 relics help with green creature decks, mind harness as well, and post board equipment decks should be beatable. sulfur elemental and grim answer mom and thalia, and the combo matchups outside of dredge should be solid.

[yutang]

Have you missed the Stifles from your maindeck? It seems like removing Stifles moves this deck from the 'slow the opponent down then drop your bomb' plan towards a more controlley style.

[Zirath]

Have you missed the Stifles from your maindeck? It seems like removing Stifles moves this deck from the 'slow the opponent down then drop your bomb' plan towards a more controlley style.

The deck is already functionally a traditional Blue based control deck as it stands. You play draw go, you drop your win condition when you have board control, etc. You can still pressure your opponent with Clique and burn out with Bolt/Snap-Bolt; however, most of your games you will be heavily reactive. You do not have a proactive plan. The most proactive I think I have ever seen this deck play is to play Goyf/Clique on turn 3 and follow with Jace when your opponent overextendeds to answer it. At that point, you have some sort of protection because they overextended. Spell Pierce adds to that line of protection where Stifle does not.

On a side note, I tried the Punishing Fire engine in this (adapted from the Guided RUG list) and it was interesting, to say the least. I did feel like I am shooting my combo matches in the foot, which seriously concerned me. Has anyone else tried that set up (something similar to endure's list except with 4 Punishing Fire over the Spell Pierce and Fire/Ice).

[Razorwynd]

The most threatening green creature you are worried about (Knight of the Reliquary) also happens to be white. If you are worried about that kind of stuff and are willing to play an Underground Sea for a board sweeper, isn't Virtue's Ruin just better?

I agree... however I was arguing against the black splash. Much like Endure, I don't think it is necessary for the maverick matchup. All one needs to do is properly manage resources.

[Endure2004]

in response to missing stifles:

I was the into the stifles for a long, long time. I top 8d 3 NELC's with stifles in my list. However, I was always boarding them out. I didn't want them in many matchups at all, and i would much rather just make my deck more reliable and consistent rather than try and mise free stifle wins. spell pierces for me have been less narrow and have saved me a couple of times in testing. I havent taken the stifleless build to a major tournament yet but ive played plenty of games with it and it definitely feels better to me. I have not thought to myself "wish i really had stifles right now", and the only matchups where i could see myself actively thinking that are against decks with ancestral visions or against goblins. against the rest of the field, spell pierce is much better. pierce has been really good for me and is almost always relevant, where as a lot of times stifle is a dead draw. give it a try!

removing the stifles makes this a control deck. The difference with this and other control decks, however, is that once you have control you can kill someone quickly. or, if you don't have control, you have the option of racing. most games are won in a few different ways:

1. trade 1 for 1, trade, trade, trade, jace. they die under waves of brainstorming
2. trade 1 for 1, trade, trade, tarmogoyf, answer, answer, answer, bolt
3. play grim lavamancer, bolt, bolt snapcaster bolt, kill all their dudes
4. trade, trade, clique, answer, answer, answer, bolt

stifle is much better for rug builds that want to play a 1 drop, then go answer, answer, answer, answer, answer bolt bolt. Our deck is playing a midrangey to control game, and drawing stifles late is just no good for a reactive deck like this while stifle rug delver builds are trying to be proactive.

[dsck]

Won ~20 player event today, 5 rounds + top 8.


Main:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Counterspell
1 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace2.0
21 land

SB:
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Spell Pierce



R1 BUG Control (Kamulium @ source) 2-0
He almost stabilazed with jace after counter war, lightning bolt had a good target. I dont remember g2.

boarding -3 spell snare, -1 forked bolt, -2 fow, -1 lightning bolt | +2 spell pierce, +1 reb, +2 pyroblast, +2 surgical extraction

R2 Goblins R/B with the new cavern land 2-0
He mulls to 5 g1, i keep 6 with bunch of stifles and i manage to mana screw him and finish him with snapcaster + bolt. I also had to save my clique by stifling goblin incenerator cycling trigger. G2 he has very scary start with t1 vial while i had to mull to 5. I think I drew 3 goyfs and managed to manascrew him again, he had vial @ 4 which he had used for 2 goblin ringleaders but didnt have mana for any of his goblins, i managed to waste his cavern land and bolt his +1/+1 haste goblin lord which set him back enough for my goyfs to finish him.

boarding -1 jace? | +1 hydroblast

R3 SneakShow (Masti-core @ source) 2-1
G1 we have counter war over sneak attack(?) which i win, i drop goyf and start bashing with my 5/6. He show and tells griselband while he is at 9 life (2 cards in hand after this), i have bolt in hand as my only card and 4 lands + goyf, i draw jace and think a long time do i play it straight into daze or will i kamikaze my goyf and bolt his grizel. I end up playing the jace and he had daze. I pass and he smashes for 7 and draws 7 and plays sneak attack. I draw land and attack with goyf which is 6/7 now that jace is in the yard and then bolt him for the final points but he had drawn misdirection off grisel, i scoop and im little baffled i couldnt win.

G2 We both kept 1 lander and both bricked on brainstorm (pretty funny). I had toplay surgical extraction targeting my brainstorm in the yard (and finding 0, removing 0) to shuffle my deck. I manage to pull a lucky win with surgical extraction on his show and tell after he had intuitioned for 3 of them. He made mistake countering my goyf with fow when he'd have 15/15 spaghetti monster next turn so saving the fow would have won the game for him.
I dont remember what happened g3 but i won.

boarding -2 grim lavamancer, -1 forked bolt, -3 spell snare, -1 sylvan library, -1 lightning bolt? | +2 surgical extraction, +1 reb, +2 pyroblast, +1 hydroblast, +2 spell pierce

R4 ID with SneakShow player (who i will face later in the finals)

R5 My opponent wants to play instead of risking drawing into t8. TES 2-1
Close games, I drew my wastelands well and those won me at least 1 of the games.

boarding -2 grim lavamancer, -1 forked bolt, -1 sylvan library, -2 jace | +2 spell pierce, +1 reb, +2 pyroblast, +1 surgical extraction

T8 quarter finals, UWb Stoneblade 2-0
1st game took ~50minutes, 2nd game i rolled him with goyf + rebs in couple minutes after manascrewing him off white.

boarding -2 fow, -3 spell snare, -2 clique, -1 forked bolt? | +1 sulfur elemental, +2 ancient grudge, +1 reb, +2 pyroblast, +2 spell pierce

T8 semis, TES 2-1 (same player as r5, he made t8 despite losing to me so we could of have drawn :tongue:)
I lost g2 because I didnt stifle his chrome mox and felt extreamily stupid about it afterwards. I think I have made this mistake against TES before as well. He imprinted chant and cast chant with it while my hand was 2 stifle and spell snare :cry:
G3 I wastelanded him twice and he couldnt find another land while i brainstormed about 3 or 4 times holding all sorts of counters.

boarding, same as round 5 except i brought hydroblast instead of surgical extraction

T8 finals, SneakShow 2-1
G1 we both durdle around playing ponders and nothing happens until turn 5 when I snapcaster brainstorm or clique, cant remember...

G2 I froze and forgot to make my land drop, at my cleanup step i realize i have 8 cards and discard a land, my opponent was quite confused.

http://i8.aijaa.com/b/00500/10180007.jpg

I lost because i couldnt counterspell with 1 mana up for daze, I would have had clique for his only fattie in his hand next turn.

G3 spell pierce for his turn 2 blood moon and then turn 3 snapcaster flashing back spell pierce was good, my opponent also flooded badly.

boarding -2 grim lavamancer, -1 forked bolt, -3 spell snare, -1 sylvan library, -1 lightning bolt? | +2 surgical extraction, +1 reb, +2 pyroblast, +1 hydroblast, +2 spell pierce

I hope somebody who read this had a good read :smile: Any questions, just ask!

[KevinTrudeau]

Has anyone ever tried taking the shell of this awesome archetype (base blue midrange Stifle/Daze/Wasteland with green splash for Goyf, although people have been deviating away from Stifle/Daze towards Counterspell and Spell Pierce, which is cool) and supplanting the red with white for Swords to Plowshares? You lose the reach that burn provides (meaning, there are slightly less modes of attack for this deck to make, which is slightly bad since that's one of the attributes that made this deck so awesome), REB out of the side (Spell Pierce will honestly probably do just fine), and probably the most awesome card of all-time in Fire//Ice (no defense for that), but it makes the dreaded Knight of the Reliquary matchup that much better (I don't think I need to espouse StP that much). I've been following this archetype for a while, and I don't think I've ever seen someone try it, which seems wrong; note that I'm well aware of Bant Stifle decks of yesteryear, but those also had stuff like KotR packages and stuff and weren't trying to necessarily do exactly what this deck is/was. F'rinstance, something like this:

4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah/Forest (probably the former)
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder (tried Preordain, like Ponder a whole lot more as of right now)

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

SB:
3 Path to Exile/Submerge
2 Spell Pierce
3 Meddling Mage
2 Disenchant/Krosan Grip/Nature's Claim
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod

As you can tell, I'm not entirely digging Spell Snare right now; it was a terrific card many moons ago and is still decent, but I currently like Spell Pierce a lot more (note that eight cantrips might be excessive, and that you could probably fit in a few for some Ponders; same goes for Counterspell).

You could also probably fit in a nice Enlightened Tutor package in the side.

[dsck]

I have top8'd last 2 GPTs for Ghent and lost in t8 to Dredge (2-1) and Thopter combo (2-1).

Im surprised nobody else plays this deck, or if they do its the punishing fire pile :rolleyes:

[Hopo]

I have top8'd last 2 GPTs for Ghent and lost in t8 to Dredge (2-1) and Thopter combo (2-1).

Im surprised nobody else plays this deck, or if they do its the punishing fire pile :rolleyes:

Why this over RUG? I think the deck has the fundamental flaw of not playing delvers.

[dsck]

Why this over RUG? I think the deck has the fundamental flaw of not playing delvers.

Delvers are good, I admit I want them in matchups against combo decks. But Delvers are fragile and useless in the rug mirror which i have personally a positive record of.

My current record with this deck is 18-3-3 for past 5 weeks, yesterday I lost to Dredge which I had 2 sideboard cards for :frown:


Quick matchup analysis:
RUG
Play around Daze, get value out of your snapcasters and find your goyfs. These games are very close, but you have 21 lands plus basics against their 18 or 19 with 1 or 0 basics, which is clear advantage sometimes.

Maverick
I have dedicated a lot sideboard for this matchup and its not to be taken lightly. Preboard Mother of Runes and knight are though, you need to keep the board clear and get jace or sylvan down, if you are on the play stifles and snapcasters may win you this game. Postboard I havent lost a single game yet.

Sneak Attack
Preboard try to mulligan to some protection and brainstorm aggressively early and snapcaster brainstorm on their EOT if they dont do anything. If they have the nuts there isnt much you can do, so many dead cards like spell snare/forked bolt/mancer in this MU unfortunantely. After boarding you have pretty good chances, rebs, pierces, wastelands and flashy creatures make their life miserable (like many other decks).

Reanimator
Very close to above, but even easier post board with surgicals.

Blade Control
Preboard games take usually 30-40mins from my experience, I usually win but againt a good pilot its uphill battle if they have lingering souls. Post board the only way you lose is if they resolve elspeth or you dont find ancient grudge, which from my experience doesnt happen.

Miracle Control
Personally I dont think I have played any matches against this deck in real life, on online its quite even matchup from my limited which becomes better after boarding some of those sexy rebs in.

Basically there isnt a single horrible matchup (except Dredge, unless you dedicate 4 sb slots to it). Every game is a blast to play and if you enjoy playing with snapcaster mages (you should) this is the best deck for them. Jaces are also sweet and perfect here, they improve those matchups normal RUG has trouble with, for example Stax with their chalices and whatnot.

[CookedChestnuts]

Has anyone ever tried taking the shell of this awesome archetype (base blue midrange Stifle/Daze/Wasteland with green splash for Goyf, although people have been deviating away from Stifle/Daze towards Counterspell and Spell Pierce, which is cool) and supplanting the red with white for Swords to Plowshares? You lose the reach that burn provides (meaning, there are slightly less modes of attack for this deck to make, which is slightly bad since that's one of the attributes that made this deck so awesome), REB out of the side (Spell Pierce will honestly probably do just fine), and probably the most awesome card of all-time in Fire//Ice (no defense for that), but it makes the dreaded Knight of the Reliquary matchup that much better (I don't think I need to espouse StP that much). I've been following this archetype for a while, and I don't think I've ever seen someone try it, which seems wrong; note that I'm well aware of Bant Stifle decks of yesteryear, but those also had stuff like KotR packages and stuff and weren't trying to necessarily do exactly what this deck is/was. F'rinstance, something like this:

4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah/Forest (probably the former)
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder (tried Preordain, like Ponder a whole lot more as of right now)

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

SB:
3 Path to Exile/Submerge
2 Spell Pierce
3 Meddling Mage
2 Disenchant/Krosan Grip/Nature's Claim
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod

As you can tell, I'm not entirely digging Spell Snare right now; it was a terrific card many moons ago and is still decent, but I currently like Spell Pierce a lot more (note that eight cantrips might be excessive, and that you could probably fit in a few for some Ponders; same goes for Counterspell).

You could also probably fit in a nice Enlightened Tutor package in the side.

It's called New Horizons, and it was relevant circa 2010.

[KevinTrudeau]

It's called New Horizons, and it was relevant circa 2010.


Has anyone ever tried taking the shell of this awesome archetype and supplanting the red with white for Swords to Plowshares?; note that I'm well aware of Bant Stifle decks of yesteryear, but those also had stuff like KotR packages and stuff and weren't trying to necessarily do exactly what this deck is/was.

[dsck]

@ Kevin

The #1 reason not to go bant is REB/Pyroblast. The bolts are very interesting as they take care of planeswalkers and give reach which surprisingly often wins you the game.

I wrote a bit longer post but it was so incoherent I decided to cut this post short and keep it simple :tongue:

[lambert101]

@Dsck what does your current list look like and what are your sideboard plans for the normal RUG, Maverick, Control, and combo (sneak attack) matchups?
Friend is trying to get into the deck and usually play combo (T.E.S.) so this whole contorl deck is new to me.

thanks in advance
-Lamber101

[dsck]

@Dsck what does your current list look like and what are your sideboard plans for the normal RUG, Maverick, Control, and combo (sneak attack) matchups?
Friend is trying to get into the deck and usually play combo (T.E.S.) so this whole contorl deck is new to me.

thanks in advance
-Lamber101

Current list:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Counterspell
1 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Preordain
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace2.0

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Tropical
3 Volcanic
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Pierce


Sideboarding often changes depending on if you are on the play or on the draw. Stifles for example are way weaker when on the draw and your opponent starts the game.

RUG:
-4 FOW, -2 Counterspell, some number of Snares and Stifles depending usually on if Im on the draw or play.
+2 Spell Pierce, +1 Relic, +3 Pyro/REB, +2 Submerge, +1 or 2 Surgical Extraction.

Sometimes I bring in Mind Harness if I know they dont have many red elemental blasts.

If RUG is very dominant around where you play you could use extra sideboard slot for another Relic of Progenitus and play 1 Life from the Loam in the sideboard or maindeck.

Use your relics just to minimaze their grave and you have 4 Lightning Bolt, 1 Forked Bolt, 3 REB/Pyro, 2 Lavamancer for Delvers so they only have Goyfs as their only creatures to fight you.

Remember to play around daze and fetch basics if you can, especially basic mountain early game so you dont die to delver. Then you can just search Tropicals and you have pretty solid mana.

Maverick:
-4 Force of Will, -2 Stifle, -2 Spell Snare, -2 Vendilion Clique
+2 Mind Harness, +2 Submerge, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 Ancient Grudge, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Sulfur Elemental

I have been considering switching Relics for 1 Krosan Grip (also good against counterbalance) and 1 Nature's Claim or Seal of Primordium as Choke is very nasty against us but I havent tested this yet. GRUDGES** are very good against artifact decks like MUD, Stax, Affinity, Blade Control and so on..


Miracle Control:
-1 Forked Bolt, -2 FOW, some number of lightning bolts and stifles depending on if you are on the draw or play.
+3 Pyro/REB, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 Surgical Extraction

Surgicals arent necessary, but I like them against control decks. If they play Stoneforges bring in Grudges. If they play Lingering Souls bring in Sulfur Elemental.

Sneak Attack:
-2 Grim Lavamancer, -1 Forked Bolt, -3 Spell Snare, -1 Sylvan Library or Jace
+2 Surgical Extraction, 3 Pyro/REB, 2 Spell Pierce


Jace could win if you lose counterwar over show and tell and they drop emrakul, you drop land and then on your turn you play jace + bounce.

But that usually doesnt happen :cry: Some number of Flusterstorms or Spell Pierces for the sideboard would improve this matchup a bit but its still pretty even when you draw a good hand. Its important that you dont tap out early and try to get clique/snapcaster action on their end step.

[lambert101]

thanks for the help....i may try switching the spell snares for pierces

[ginger]

I've been testing NLT for GP: Atlanta and I love playing it. I started wish dsck's list but I found myself disliking Stifle. It was great versus Griselbrand decks, but RUG and Maverick have been giving me trouble so I switched to Engineered Explosives and love it.
My current list looks like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Sylvan Library
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
1 Ponder

2 Engineered Explosives

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Nature's Claim
1 Spell Pierce

Thoughts?

[dsck]

You are aiming to get to mid game with this deck, you usually pull ahead with stifles/snapcasters. Then you have enough advantage to tapout for Jace or resolve Tarmogoyf with counter backup. Not playing stifles is a mistake in my opinion.

[Dark Ritual]

Stifle is pretty good against canadian thresh, especially if you go island pass on turn 1 or you lay down an island when your opponent has an uncracked fetchland. The real point of stifle in this deck is to help stall until you land a jace or some bomb, as playing jace when the opponent is still playing 2 drops is quite good. Controlling the pace of the game is quite good when you're the one controlling the pace. And stifle + snapcaster is straight dirty.

I wouldn't run mind harness right now. Gilded drake is the card against show and tell decks as well as reanimator, as stealing griselbrand beats stealing just red or green creatures.

[Koby]

My favorite thing about Gilded Drake in this deck is that it plays like EDH - steal your dude, Jace-bounce my Drake. /grin/

[dsck]

Good notes about Gilded Drake, its on my to-get list. I'd probably replace submerges before Mind Harnesses as they are slightly weaker overall.

I've also been testing Life from the Loam as 1-of maindeck instead of 1 preordain, so many times it gets me the land I need (which I'd have preordained for) or wastelocks the opponent. Its also ridiculous card advantage with jace and brainstorms.

The minus points of it is you dont want to use 2 mana for the loam where as using 1 mana for preordain lets you keep stifle/snare/counterspell open. It may just get snared and you get out tempoed before you get your engine going.

I think ranc0r originally suggested it here so all credit to him.

[lambert101]

In testing with dsck's list I find Maverick the hardest match-up. If you do not have stifles early you are done.

[dsck]

In testing with dsck's list I find Maverick the hardest match-up. If you do not have stifles early you are done.

I wouldnt say hardest, but its tough. If maverick gets mom to stick and things are starting to look grim, its good idea to pack it up and go to sideboard games as those are definitely favorable and time maybe an issue. Look out for Thrun (you need goyf) and be aware of Choke.

[SirTylerGalt]

I've been testing AJ Sacher's U/R Delver list from a few months ago: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8550&iddeck=62381 It has some similarities with NLT.

With the printing of Nivmagus Elemental in RtR, I wonder if NLT could go UR (or maybe just a very small green splash for SB cards like Ancient Grudge), replacing Goyf with Nivmagus, and adding a few Flusterstorm to combo with it?

Also, I'd love to revive Gro-A-Tog, replacing Psychatog with Kiln Fiend and Nivmagus Elemental, and adding Cunning Wish + Berserk in the SB. Not sure if a Next Level Threshold shell would work, though...

[Dyvith]

I've been playing this deck again as I think it is really well positioned against all the combo in the field. Traditionally, the deck has run lavamancer and lightning bolt, but I think that the format has shifted - Lavamancer is simply not good enough.

This is what I am proposing.

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendillion Clique
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor (Possibly 3?)

3 Forked Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Grove
3 Trop
3 Volc
2 Island
4 Waste
7 blue fetches

[Dyvith]

I imagine the sideboard resembles the following:

2 Counterspell
1 Vendillion Clique
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim
1 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus (This may come out)
2 Izzet Staticaster (This may come out)
1 Pyroclasm (This may come out)
2 Mind Harness

[The Treefolk Master]

I've been playing this deck again as I think it is really well positioned against all the combo in the field. Traditionally, the deck has run lavamancer and lightning bolt, but I think that the format has shifted - Lavamancer is simply not good enough.

This is what I am proposing.

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendillion Clique
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor (Possibly 3?)

3 Forked Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Grove
3 Trop
3 Volc
2 Island
4 Waste
7 blue fetches

Having faced 4 combo decks out of 7 rounds last saturday, I'm looking into playing something like this. RUG Delver is a bit too aggro for my taste, while this deck has all the controlling elements + the ability to crush someone with Goyf beats, elements which I enjoy.

I like your list, although I have no experience to assess how good it is. Is P. Fire currentl better than Grimm lavamancer? (I've found lavamancer in most lists I've seen).

Does anyone have an updated stock list (should that exist) I can use as a starting point?

[Dungaurd]

As a former canadian thresh player, this deck looks very interesting. It appears it might be a better choice versus a lot of what is out there right now. Anybody have any updated list to talk about?

[rancOr_]

Hi,
I've been playing this deck for a very long time with great succes! If I were to play this right now(which is a really good choice btw) I'd probably play this list:

2 island
1 mountain
3 volcanic island
3 tropical island
4 scalding tarn
5 blue fetch(pref. polluted delta to hide stifle)
3 wasteland
4 tarmogoyf
4 snapcaster mage
3 vendilion clique
2 jace,the mind sculptor
1 sylvan library
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 force of will
3 spell snare
2 spell pierce
1 counterspell
2 ponder
4 lightning bolt
1 fire//ice

- First off, snapcaster mage is mvp in this deck,its correct to play 4 as u have so many targets(+post board reb/fluster,..)
- Next is V. Clique, this card is amazing in this deck,would not go below 3.
- No 4wasteland, I like the 9th fetch over it as u need alot of UU.
- I dont like P fire,as again LB is faster and way better with SCM.
- Ponder/Preordain both are actually really good in this deck,play whatever u prefer.
- I've always been really happy with the S. Library. This flex spot can also be a LftL.

Grtz

[copywriter]

Are anyone still playing this deck? I sleeved up this today and it felt really versatile, strong and consistent.

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
1 Fire // Ice
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Mind Harness
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Firespout
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam


I do have a lot of questions though. Hopefully someone is still playing this, or have played a lot of it in the past. Help?

[The Treefolk Master]

I second that, I really like the deck and would greatly appreciate if someone with more experience talks about it in the current metagame.

BTW; I have 0 experience with the deck, but is Chain Lightning actually good? Its 3 damage for R, but I don't like it being sorcery speed. I'd rather have a second Fire // Ice actually. Please note that I am only theory-crafting.

[Zirath]

Your list is pretty outdated. Chain Lightning is not good enough for this deck.

[Megadeus]

I dont mean to be nosing in and making a non constructive statement, but Next Level Thresh is a very misleading deck name.... Theres no Thresh in this deck! Its RUG control essentially?

[Zirath]

I dont mean to be nosing in and making a non constructive statement, but Next Level Thresh is a very misleading deck name.... Theres no Thresh in this deck! Its RUG control essentially?

It's based on the fact that this was supposed to be an evolution of Canadian Thresh. The cards in this deck are actually very similar (originally) to Canadian, just with more lands and more hard controlling elements. This is a midrange control deck, like Stoneblade, not a true control deck.

[dsck]

I switched decks after Abrupt Decay and Deathrite were printed last year.

Goyf wars are very uncomfortable with Abrupt decay around and Deathrite makes Snapcaster Mages bad. This deck also has problems beating normal Canadian Threshold and UWr Miracles is tough matchup. In other words this deck isnt well positioned right now.



If I were to play this now I would focus on mana denial plan (Stifles + Loam) and play Grim Lavamancers + 4 Bolt and 1 Fire/Ice or Forked Bolt.

2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt

1 Life from the Loam
2 Ponder
1 Forked Bolt

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Ancient Grudge
3 REB/Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will

[Einherjer]

As I promised dsck yesterday night on cockatrice I took this deck to our locals. We traditionally don't have a lot of midrange stuff here, mostly Tempo and Combo, with me being one of the few/only Controlplayers. I decided to bring this in order to have fun while playing:

//Lands

4 Scalding Tarn

4 Misty Rainforest

3 Island

1 Mountain

1 Forest

1 Wasteland

1 Academy Ruins

3 Volcanic Island

3 Tropical Island

1 Taiga

//Creatures

2 Tarmogoyf

2 Scavenging Ooze

1 Grim Lavamancer

3 Snapcaster Mage

//Lock

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Counterbalance

//Counter

4 Force of WIll

3 Spell Snare

3 Spell Pierce

//Stuff

4 Brainstorm

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Engineered Explosives

1 LIfe from the Loam

1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt

//Sideboard

2 Ancient Grudge

2 Sulfur Elemental

1 Red Elemental Blast

4 Flusterstorm

2 Grim Lavamancer

1 Tarmogoyf

1 Engineered Explosives

2 Surgical Extraction

And here is my short recap of the matches:

1) The Gate
I:Force his Thoughtseize, Snare his Confi, Pierce his Lilly, deploy Jace.
II: I get CounterTop out by T2, force his Percy and win from there.

2) TES
I: I mull a bad hand and get Snare, Force and stuff. He probes, silences. I let it resolve, he wishes for Empty and passes. I draw nothing, pass. He Silences, and Empties the Warrens. 8 Goblins. I use Mancer, Bolt and Snappy to survive until I find an EE at 1 life. Then I land Jace and brainstorm 1000 times.
II: I just counter all his stuff. Easy.

3) Canadian Threhsold
I: He deploys an early Nimble Mongoose and I struggle to find sufficient answers in time. Once I dealt with him I am at 2, he got nothing, I got a Snapcaster. So I start the beatdown. With him being at 4 he plays Delver. I play Mancer, attack with Snappy, he goes to 2. Delver flips, I am dead.
II: T2 Balance gets forced, but his unshrouded creatures die to Jace-stall a little later, then I Balance him out of the game.
III: I get an early Balance, all I have to do is deal with his creature. Easy.

4) Reanimator
I: I got Balance, he got Grisel in Grave. He Reanimates. I brainstorm and put 1 on top. Next turn he Exhumes. I Snare. Then he exhumes. I Snare. Then he Animates the Dead, I trigger Balance and scoop it up.
II: I just don't think I can realistically die to Reanimator postboard. He just never had a chance.
III: He bricks on lands and is dead soon after.

So, 4-0 at the locals, this deck was really a blast to play - especially for a metagame like mine - where I don't have to fight through shit like Jund or Maverick - brr :D

Greetings

[Fr_Apo]

I'd post it here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18865-Deck-Next-Level-Threshold/page23

That's the thread for Midrange/Control RUG-decks.

GreetingsHi. I wondered if that new Punishing RUG control deck from Caleb Durward could be good enough. I liked the idea and the unsusual cards but I'm not so sure about it since he only finished 234th.
Here is the link to the list and decktech :
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...ug_with_c.html

Also comments below aren't very nice to the choices, so I figured I'd gather some additional opinions before working on it.
What do you all think ?

[JDK]

@Fr_Apo
Wait for M14 (Young Pyromancer) and see if the deck gets playable after then.

[dsck]

I think this deck is the best shell for pyromancer.

Instant (22)
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
1x Izzet Charm (hasnt been very good)
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle

Sorcery (4)
2x Forked Bolt (could only run 1, but I dont want to see a living deathrite :mad:)
2x Preordain

Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land (21)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Creature (11)
2x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Young Pyromancer

Sideboard (15)
2x Flusterstorm
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Submerge
2x Sulfur Elemental
2x Surgical Extraction

I could see some Price of Progresses in the SB, they are insane against most decks right now. Some Spell Pierces maybe should be in the 75. Im sure I forgot some good card that should be in the deck (especially SB) so if anyone else has tested similar lists, post your thoughts!

[lambert101]

Rug is my favorite color combination in mtg. Was wondering if a loam rug or a counter-top version would be better. Brew two lists ( one for each style).

Loam

4 goyf
2 clique

4 bolt
4 pfire
4 bstorm
4 ponder
4 force
3 pierce
2 snare
1 loam

3 jace

4 wasteland
4 grove of the burnt willows
1 island
1 mountain
1 forest
2 trop
2 volcanic
4 misty
4 Tarn

c- top
4 goyf

3 lavamancer

2 clique

4 bstorm

3 spell pierce

3force

4 bolt

4 pfire

3 top

4 balance

3 Jace

4 grove

2 island

1 forest

2 mountains

4 misty

4 tarn

3 trop

3 volcanic

Please let me know thoughts.

[dsck]

Instant (21)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Dismember
1x Fire/Ice
3x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Repeal
2x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle

Sorcery (4)
1x Forked Bolt
3x Ponder

Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (12)
1x Augur of Bolas
2x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Young Pyromancer

Land (21)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Riptide Laboratory
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard (12)
2x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Submerge
1x Surgical Extraction
3x ???



Im likin' it. Not enough games to determine most effective sideboard. Jaces are very good, may actually want 3rd in there.

[The Treefolk Master]

Instant (21)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Dismember
1x Fire/Ice
3x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Repeal
2x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle

Sorcery (4)
1x Forked Bolt
3x Ponder

Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (12)
1x Augur of Bolas
2x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Young Pyromancer

Land (21)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Riptide Laboratory
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard (12)
2x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Submerge
1x Surgical Extraction
3x ???



Im likin' it. Not enough games to determine most effective sideboard. Jaces are very good, may actually want 3rd in there.

It seems nice. A couple of questions:

Is Augur of Bolas actually good? I despise the card from mana screwing me in Standard.

I notice you're not running the full set of Forces MD. Is this a meta call, or would you recommend it going blind into a tournament?

How's the Jund matchup?

Since you're running Young Pyromancer, wouldn't Punishing Fire be worth a look?

Also; I saw this list in TCDecks, and I really liked it, except for the fact that it runs 62 MD cards:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11519&iddeck=84250

[dsck]

It seems nice. A couple of questions:

Is Augur of Bolas actually good? I despise the card from mana screwing me in Standard.

I notice you're not running the full set of Forces MD. Is this a meta call, or would you recommend it going blind into a tournament?

How's the Jund matchup?

Since you're running Young Pyromancer, wouldn't Punishing Fire be worth a look?

Also; I saw this list in TCDecks, and I really liked it, except for the fact that it runs 62 MD cards:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11519&iddeck=84250

I added 1 Submerge and 2 Blood Moons to SB.

I havent had chance to test against Jund, but in theory I dont see it as a good matchup. On the play with good stifle hand it may work out.

Augur is decent. I sometimes wish it would get any card from top 3 but so far in my limited testing it has 75% of the time gotten me a card.

Running only 3 FOWs is from my experience with NLT, I used to almost always side them out.

There are better decks to abuse Punishing Fire with, such as Calebs RUG cascade or Jund.

[kiblast]

4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Life from the Loam
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
SB: 3 Electrickery
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives


Here's what I played last week in a local 56 players tournament. Missed top8 because of a misplay that cost me the 4th round. I played vs:

2-0 vs Jund
1-2 vs Mono Red Sneak Attack (the only chalice deck in a field of Elves and ANT, FML)
2-0 vs UR tempo burn
1-2 vs Vial Maverick ( I should have dredged Lftl for wasteland multiple times during g3,before losing to his topdecked Kotr. I had Punishing Grove online so I only lose to Kotr and I should have wrecked his manabase while pinging for 1 eot through P Fire. )
2-0 vs DeathBlade
2-1 vs Tin Fins

Overall record was 4-2. Deck is super smooth and nice to play. I'm not playing Daze as I need to develop my manabase quickly and can't afford timewalking myself.
Electrickery is bonkers.

EDIT:

I also played tonight in our local tournament. 17 people.

2-0 vs Thresh
2-0 vs Dredge
2-0 vs Maverick
2-1 vs Patriot

Top8: 2-0 vs DnT (he was a random scrub btw)
Top4: 0-2 vs Shardless BUG

Vs Bug it's really hard to control those Goyfs. Probably I shouldn't have boarded out FOWs, but I don't really like them vs BUG considering its whopping 4 Tourach 4 Seize. Probably I need Submerges in sb.

[ironclad8690]

Isn't this deck excited about true name nemesis?

[The Treefolk Master]

4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Life from the Loam
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
SB: 3 Electrickery
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives


Is Mongoose actually better than Goyf in that shell?

Also, have you considered runnign SB Swan Song? The disadvantage is neutralized by PFire.

[kiblast]

Is Mongoose actually better than Goyf in that shell?

Also, have you considered runnign SB Swan Song? The disadvantage is neutralized by PFire.

I was running 2 Swan Song main deck, but at the beginning of the first tournament I switched them to Snares because I was fearing Goyfs and I thought I was set up too much versus combo.

Swan Song is certainly extremely good in Punishing shells as P Fire negates the downside of the card. But let's be honest here: what exactly SS does that we cannot do with Pierce? Pierce also has the added bonus of countering hardcasted Bskull and Planeswalkers. We have access to the full tempo package of 4 Wastelands and 4 Stifle so it's not difficult to keep opponent's mana under Pierce range for most of the match.

Moongose is shrouded. Goyf it's not. While I do admit I have problems with Goyfs (even with 2 Snares md) and if I played Goyfs I'd win any Goyf war (given the amount of burn we can play in this archetype) shroud is essential because we play so few creatures we really need em to stick. Young Pyromancer is an exception because you can still create a small army of tokens if he survives 1-2 turns; on the other hand if he gets Stp'ed or Decayed or Bolted you can still shoot a P Fire to your opponent netting you a 1/1.

I'm trying to cut a land and JTMS in order to make room for 3 Nemesis. That should solve the Goyf problem and gives us mongoose 5-7. Jace is the only reason why I run 22 lands, because the deck runs nicely on 20-21. Cutting a land and playing Nemesis makes sense as TNN sits nicely at the top of the curve of a 21 lands, 8 cantrips deck ; and deals with Goyfs way better than Jtms does. Also I heard opp's Nemesis love to eat your Jace. Playing them seems a no-brainer...

[kiblast]

I'm going to play this list tonight:

Deck: URg Next Level Thresh (http://deckstats.net/deck-3508164-82351c27fb0f1c88bf0087c11c854655-it.html) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Lands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Grove+of+the+Burnwillows)
2 Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Island)
1 Mountain (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Mountain)
3 Polluted Delta (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Polluted+Delta)
4 Scalding Tarn (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Scalding+Tarn)
1 Tropical Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Tropical+Island)
3 Volcanic Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Volcanic+Island)
4 Wasteland (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Wasteland)

//Spells
4 Brainstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Brainstorm)
4 Force of Will (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Force+of+Will)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Jace%2C+the+Mind+Sculptor)
1 Life from the Loam (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Life+from+the+Loam)
4 Lightning Bolt (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Lightning+Bolt)
3 Ponder (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Ponder)
4 Punishing Fire (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Punishing+Fire)
3 Spell Pierce (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Spell+Pierce)
3 Stifle (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Stifle)

//Creatures
2 Grim Lavamancer (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Grim+Lavamancer)
2 Snapcaster Mage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Snapcaster+Mage)
3 True-Name Nemesis (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=True-Name+Nemesis)
1 Vendilion Clique (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Vendilion+Clique)
3 Young Pyromancer (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Young+Pyromancer)

//Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Red+Elemental+Blast)
4 Electrickery (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Electrickery)
3 Surgical Extraction (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Surgical+Extraction)
2 Krosan Grip (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Krosan+Grip)
2 Sulfuric Vortex (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Sulfuric+Vortex)
1 Hibernation (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Hibernation)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics (http://deckstats.net/deck-3508164-82351c27fb0f1c88bf0087c11c854655.html)

The metagame in which I'm going to play is really varied (they use proxy, I use foils, whatever) but mostly dominated by Goblins and Elves. Seem like a solid list. I could find Miracles and Trueblade as well. I think I'm really good positioned with this list.

[SirTylerGalt]

Maciej Fidzinski (11th) Grand Prix Paris 2014

( http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppar14/ )


// Land [20]
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
1 Taiga

// Creature [14]
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tarmogoyf

// Instant [21]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze

// Sorcery [5]
4 Ponder
1 Forked Bolt

// Sideboard [15]
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
3 Submerge
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[dsck]

Thats way closer to canadian threshold/rug delver than NLT :cry:

[lyracian]

Thats way closer to canadian threshold/rug delver than NLT :cry:
I agree; it is another Threshold variant deck.

[Jizz]

Hello,

Since some splashes Black in Rug decks (Brug), why wouldn't you do the same in NLT ? What about a list like this one ?


9 Fetchs : 4 misty, 4 scalding, 1 polluted
3 usea
3 trop
1 volc
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

4 DRS
4 Mongoose
3 TNN
1 Thrun

1 Loam
2 Jace
4 Brainstorm

4 Bolt
3 Decay

1 Counterspell
2 Snare
3 Force
3 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle


SB :

1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grudge

1 Force of will
2 Fluster/Pierce
2 Reb

1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fire covenant
2 Electrickery

And another 4 slots, maybe some delvers ? Against Combo, gobelins, merfolk, etc... To gain tempo when needed.



I like the full shroud threats + Liliana protection from Stifle , 3 Thoughtseize + 7 Removals +2 Snare MD to clear the path. The only card that provides CA is Jace, but having shroud creats provides some kind of "virtual" CA : removals in the opponent's hand are negated..
The problem is the mana base, Volcanic Island is not the best land to have on Turn 1... That's why I pack only 1 volc and 1 Loam MD (in case i get taiga + volc wastelanded, but also for the mana denial plan).
What are your thoughts ?

[sdematt]

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Trygon Predator
2 Scryb Ranger
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ponder
3 Punishing Fires
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

-----------------

4 Force of Will
2 Sulfur Elemental
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Null Rod

I know this deck hasn't been seeing much play recently, but I just thought I'd be posting up something I'll be trying out in the next little bit. I've been wanting to brew RUG Punishing Fires for a while, since I think the RUG colours have some merit. I'll try to explain my brainstorming session.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Trygon Predator
2 Scryb Ranger
3 True-Name Nemesis

Noble provides acceleration and wins Goyf stalemates. Grim helps control Delvers and win Goyf wars/poke Deathrite Shamans. Trygon is just super value. Scryb Ranger seems really nice and techy by swinging past TNN, blocking Insectile, and untapping Goyfs and TNN's after combat but before blocks to muck incoming creatures.

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ponder
3 Punishing Fires

Removal and ways to find other cards. Not enough slots to run 4 and 4 BS/4 Ponder. I know I wanted to run P. Fires, but it's not the end all, be all. It helps to control little guys and Walkers, but Bolt is just way more effective.

3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce

I don't want to play the deck like a Force of Will deck, at least against all of the midrange in the format. I feel like I want to board into Forces should I need them, but in my meta, I would be boarding them out more than in.

1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Value manipulation. Zenith is just a 1-of since I can, and I've liked the 1-of in other decks before. Sylvan is just extra draw in permanent form, and Jace is the top of the curve.

The deck could be total crap, but I'll share any results I come up with. I'm not on the YP bandwagon for this particular build, but I'm sure I could come up with one.

-Matt

[trollking21]

I feel like even if you believe your going to board out force a lot you should probably have 2-3 in the main deck. it is never a truly dead card and you gain a ton of points against combo game 1. I think force has some merit in the deck even though probably not a 4 of.

[B88]

hi everyone,
i would share my list that i'm playing now

3 tarmogoyf
3 grim lavamancer
2 vendilion
2 trinket mage
1 phyrexian dreadnought

3 pfire
3 bolt

4 brainstorm
4 fow
2 jace the mind
1 ponder
2 spell snare
2 spell pierce
4 stifle

1 sensei
1 e.e.

7 fetch
3 wasteland
4 grove of b.
2 tropical i.
4 volcanic i.
1 academy
2 island

why i did some choices:

1- pfire: i the huge combo in this format! bit miracle and all midrange deck
2- dreadnought: he is the silver bullet...when you need to win the race against nemesi this guy is the best one, and i can find him easy with triket. also i choose him for maximize stifle in some MU :tongue:
3- grim lavamancer: he makes advantage cards with trinket, pfire and jace....but i'm not sure 100% for play him because is very grave greedy and needs and ask a lot of mana with pfire

all other spells are more or less the same of other deck and i not going to explain them

the only slot which i'm not sure, as i said above, are 3grim lavamancer

any advice?

[ScatmanX]

When I saw this thread active thought someone was discussing Dack Fayden (new planeswalker from Conspiracy) here. To me, it looked the best place to start. It is quite aggressively costed, digs for any engines we might have, help us deal with equipment, and even the ultimate might be good if we use cards like Bolt and Fire/Ice.
So, here's a first draft I based on sdematt list:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice

2 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce

2 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fires

2 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

SB:
4 Force of Will
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Sulfur Elemental
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Grafdiggers Cage

What do you think?

[edahl]

Taking a queue from BBD's midrange list and switching out the white stuff with good green cards and adding a land (because Punishing Fire is expensive compared to StP) gives a pretty polished strong list. Not too sure about the sideboard (which of course suffers under lack of white). Beat UWR midrange and BUG Delver quite comfortably yesterday (2-0). Against UR I think it's pretty good if piloted correctly: I played disgustingly bad with a Jitte in play against PoP, lost 0-2 but both games were very winnable. 4 Treasure Cruise was not a problem, though I could see myself switching out 1 for a Dig to find Punishing Fire and Grove (though I never had trouble finding either). Would very much like to hear if someone's testing something similar to this! The list of BBD I'm talking about is http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76124

Creature (10)
4x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis
4x Young Pyromancer

Instant (18)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Lightning Bolt
4x Punishing Fire
1x Pyroblast
2x Spell Pierce

Sorcery (12)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Treasure Cruise

Artifact (1)
1x Engineered Explosives

Land (19)
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Tropical Island
4x Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
2x Pithing Needle
2x Pyroblast
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sylvan Library
2x Umezawa's Jitte

[sdematt]

I think a Goyf/volcanic fallout strategy is worth trying in the maindeck since Pyroclasm/Fallout is basically Terminus.

[edahl]

I think a Goyf/volcanic fallout strategy is worth trying in the maindeck since Pyroclasm/Fallout is basically Terminus.

Worth a try! I really like the catch-all EE though, as it takes out opposing Tarmogoyfs (Durward suggested this) and we don't have much problem with the opposing board flooding anyway. It's extremely versatile: it's a main board answer to counter-balance, and it takes out pro red and even TNNs.

[Bobmans]

As i said earlier i tested a similar list. I first had 3 engineered explosives in the board, but i felt that is missed creatures on the board so i decided to run that 2/2 split between EE and Pyroclasm. I used it to assume board control and after that land a goyf/tnn. I do, however, think that it can ruin plans with the pyromancer. Thats said i cant ignore the fact that Pyroclasm is really awesome.

Also i jammed in a single Dack Fayden. Aside from fueling cruises/Dtt it also has synergy with PFire. And in one game i "stole" a sword of fire/ice from a DnT player.

[edahl]

As i said earlier i tested a similar list. I first had 3 engineered explosives in the board, but i felt that is missed creatures on the board so i decided to run that 2/2 split between EE and Pyroclasm. I used it to assume board control and after that land a goyf/tnn. I do, however, think that it can ruin plans with the pyromancer. Thats said i cant ignore the fact that Pyroclasm is really awesome.

Also i jammed in a single Dack Fayden. Aside from fueling cruises/Dtt it also has synergy with PFire. And in one game i "stole" a sword of fire/ice from a DnT player.

I'll try these Pyro things!

Haaa that's cute! May be good at fuelling TC but I really didn't feel like it was an issue. Post board against UWR I was pretty comfortable killing their ONE semi-relevant threat (Batterskull) with Ancient Grudge, but stealing it might be pretty good too ;-D.

[sdematt]

This is what I'm trying:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Fire // Ice
4 Brainstorm
3 Pyroclasm
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Dig Through Time


1 Academy Ruins
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills

-Matt

[Bobmans]

This is what I'm trying:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Fire // Ice
4 Brainstorm
3 Pyroclasm
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Dig Through Time


1 Academy Ruins
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills

-Matt

I would opt for 4 TNN and 3 Goyf. The list feels best at control the board and leading TNN to victory. Goyf was easily blocked/removed and often only served as a chump blocker.
Jace is nice. Same goes for DTT.
I also tried Loam, but i often didnt reach the point where i wanted to use it. The game was mostly already determined.
I like the SCM and lavamancers. I am not to sure if i'd want maindeck 5 sweepers, but i have lot spells based decks in my meta. Id defenitly want it in my board. Academy Ruins might be to cute. A split between a total of 6 spell pierce, spell snare and counterspell seems nice to.

Pre khans my list was:
3 grim lavamancer
3 goyf
3 tnn
1 clique
4 fow
3 spell pierce
2 spell snare
1 counterspell
3 lightning bolt
3 punishing fire
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 jace
1 dack fayden
4 grove
2 island
1 mountain
1 forest
2 volc
2 trop
4 scalding tarn
2 wooded
2 misty
3 wasteland

Board
1 grafdiggers cage
2 surgical extraction
2 krosan grip
2 pyroclasm
2 engineered explosives
2 flusterstorm
2 pyroblast
2 pithing needle

[sdematt]

Recall pyro will kill your own tnns.

[edahl]

How has Grim Lavamancer turned out? It seems a little excessive when you could be playing Treasure Cruise and Young Pyromancer and have a threat base immune to Chalice on 1. Plus, our EE on 1 is a massacre. We already have a huge card advantage in the Punishing Fire engine, and with 4 copies and enough cantrips finding it is ezpz.

@bobmans Do you have a list of the pre-Khans thing you ran that was similar to my more beat-down list?

EDIT: Oh, discarding Punishing Fire to Dack Fayden is pretty good, if maybe a bit mana intensive.

[Bobmans]

How has Grim Lavamancer turned out? It seems a little excessive when you could be playing Treasure Cruise and Young Pyromancer and have a threat base immune to Chalice on 1. Plus, our EE on 1 is a massacre. We already have a huge card advantage in the Punishing Fire engine, and with 4 copies and enough cantrips finding it is ezpz.

@bobmans Do you have a list of the pre-Khans thing you ran that was similar to my more beat-down list?

EDIT: Oh, discarding Punishing Fire to Dack Fayden is pretty good, if maybe a bit mana intensive.

More beatdown list? Nah, the thing that makes the list more beatdown is Treasure Cruise. The list i posted above was the final list i played. Between that and classical RUG Threshold there was nothing more. What made the above list strong was the amount of Countermagic paired with Bolt/Fire. I think the balance was pretty good and it played out well as a Mid/Long game control list. The weakest link was probably Tarmogoyf. Mostly Grim Lavamancer put more pressure on the opponent (kinda weird, but true). Lavamancer is a must answer, kind of the same role as Young Pyromancer. With either Cruise/DTT the Lavamancer loses value. Indeed EE/Pyroclasm kills it to, but either Grim Lavamancer gets killed right on the spot, or it connects shooting down 1 or 2 creatures and dies after being removed or is used as a chump blocker. People always seem to be scared/worried about Lavamancer, and for good reason. I see EE/Pyro strictly as a panic button in case of decks like Elves, Dredge, EntreatAngels. Mostly vs Delver or DnT it is not even needed since Bolt/PFire/Counter magic already puts enough control on the board and TNN does some heavy lifting aswell.

Maybe Cruise puts this list in the right direction of being more aggresive while maintaining a solid disruptive package and we can truly call this, Next Level'ed' ********.

[sdematt]

I mean, reasonably, you're playing a very removal heavy deck and you're trying to sweep and then swing in with Goyf and whatnot. Jace can help seal the game, recurring EE, or just TNN. But, recall, you can only play Pyro when you're behind or have Goyf on board. Your TNN's die to your Pyro sweepers. If I were running Top in this deck, I'd run the heck out of Bonfire of the Damned.

Firce/Ice might be reasonable to cut for, say, Counterspell or even just REB. Cruise is harder on the graveyard than Dig, and we're the type of deck that can support Dig.

I'll run my list tomorrow at the weekly and let you guys know how it went.

-Matt

[edahl]

Cruise is harder on the graveyard than Dig, and we're the type of deck that can support Dig.

I'll run my list tomorrow at the weekly and let you guys know how it went.

-Matt

This isn't true! Treasure cruise just happens to give you the option of being cast for 1. Of anything tc is easier to run as it gives an extra card to for the graveyard (and value off Pyromancer).

I also think we should be running 4 pf and negates over counterspell (as we are mowing down creatures). Durward suggested this and it makes sense to me/worked as intended in testing and a local tourney.

Cool! Looking forward to it

[keys]

I think the NLT (RUG control) of the future will incorporate some kind of abuse of Punishing Fire/Dack Fayden/Loam recursion. The synergy between these three, plus Wasteland, Treasure Cruise, Noxious Revival, and using Intuition as a tutor for missing parts has a lot of potential. The only problem with Dack is he doesn't do much on his own. You certainly need Goyf/TNN as a wall.

Here's a jumping off point:

4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

2 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Ponder
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Intuition
1 Life From the Loam
1 Noxious Revival

2 Engineered Explosives

4 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island

Sideboard:
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroclasm

Intuition gets you:

Any combination of P. Fire, Grove, + Loam
Wasteland + Loam
Any 2-of + Noxious Revival
- Treasure Cruise
- EE
- Dack
- Surgical/Graffdigger's
- Grip/Grudge

[Bobmans]

Looks like URBG PyroLoam.
I like the idea.

[edahl]

When it comes to the durdly loam build (pretty cool!) Gerry Thompson just published an article about a version of it. I wouldn't be surprised if going all in on the control plan would the right thing to do if you want to take it in that direction http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29824_Daily-Digest-King-Durdle.html

I just realized that the midrange list I modelled my list on is Stoneblade, so it's like a Temur "Stoneblade," which seems like a quite different direction to take NLT

[Qweerios]

4th place 82 player tournament:


Creatures [10]
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [23]
1 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
3 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

Sorceries [7]
1 Forked Bolt
2 Firespout
4 Ponder

Enchantments [1]
1 Sylvan Library

Lands [19]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn

1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blood Moon
1 Firespout
2 Flusterstorm
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction


This deck is definitely more mid-range oriented than RUG because it plays basic lands instead of Wastelands, additional counterspells rather than Stifle, and DTT instead of Mongoose.

I don't like the PFire approach with EE because it is too late-game oriented for a Bolt deck. White and black also provide spells for a dedicated control deck than red and green. Groves don't add blue mana and that's a deal breaker.

Personally, I have been playing an almost identical list to the above since the banning of TC and I have been loving it. A nice thing about this deck is that people seem to expect Daze and play as if we had it. My list plays 2 Snapcasters instead of Flusterstorm and Misdirection, 3 Sudden Shock instead of Forked Bolt and the two Firespout, and a 4th Misty Rainforest instead of the 3rd Island. My sideboard is also slightly different and plays Rough // Tumble over Firespout and a couple of TNN as well. I find Sudden Shock to be much superior to Forked Bolt when playing a reactive role.

[Plague Sliver]

That's a nice list. Reminds me of when I played NLT during the Misstep era -- and got stomped by Aggro Loam all the time. DTT could be very powerful here.

For me, though, the question would be: why this deck over Miracles or Gold Digger? This seems like a hedge between the two. Nonetheless, I'm itching to try it out because it's more my playstyle.

[keys]

4th place 82 player tournament:

snip

This deck is definitely more mid-range oriented than RUG because it plays basic lands instead of Wastelands, additional counterspells rather than Stifle, and DTT instead of Mongoose.

I don't like the PFire approach with EE because it is too late-game oriented for a Bolt deck. White and black also provide spells for a dedicated control deck than red and green. Groves don't add blue mana and that's a deal breaker.

Personally, I have been playing an almost identical list to the above since the banning of TC and I have been loving it. A nice thing about this deck is that people seem to expect Daze and play as if we had it. My list plays 2 Snapcasters instead of Flusterstorm and Misdirection, 3 Sudden Shock instead of Forked Bolt and the two Firespout, and a 4th Misty Rainforest instead of the 3rd Island. My sideboard is also slightly different and plays Rough // Tumble over Firespout and a couple of TNN as well. I find Sudden Shock to be much superior to Forked Bolt when playing a reactive role.

Can you elaborate on your decision to play Rough / Tumble over Firespout? Is it just because of Daze/Pierce and Port/Wasteland?

I like Sudden Shock as well, but I think it was better when there were tons of Monastery Swiftspear and Pyromancer about. Why do you think it's superior to Forked Bolt?

I wonder if Scavenging Ooze or even Savage Knuckleblade could work in here too (possibly as a replacement for Clique in aggro heavy metagames).

Anyway, I like how DTT is enabling a lot of these mid-rangey control builds post-TC ban.

[Qweerios]

Can you elaborate on your decision to play Rough / Tumble over Firespout? Is it just because of Daze/Pierce and Port/Wasteland?

I like Sudden Shock as well, but I think it was better when there were tons of Monastery Swiftspear and Pyromancer about. Why do you think it's superior to Forked Bolt?

I wonder if Scavenging Ooze or even Savage Knuckleblade could work in here too (possibly as a replacement for Clique in aggro heavy metagames).

Anyway, I like how DTT is enabling a lot of these mid-rangey control builds post-TC ban.

Uncounterable Shock will always be good so long as there are Delver decks out there. Instant speed is what makes me favor Sudden Shock over Forked Bolt. The same reasoning applies to Clique over TNN. In a counterspell heavy deck, having all your plays at instant speed is a great way to control the flow of spells resolving. Unlike Canadian Thresh, this deck has more mana to work with so Sudden Shock isn't out of the question. If the deck was restricted on mana, I would probably still play Shock > Forked Bolt because this deck is almost entirely reactive.

EDIT: Burst Lightning sounds amazing for this deck

[Alix444]

I was looking at old legacy threads and found Balanced Threshold, could that package have success in these lists?