Manabase guidelines in legacy: Duals, fetches, and basics?

[Star|Scream]

Hi,

I was wondering if there is a primer or a general consensus as to how to properly calculate the number of duals, fetches, and basics to use for multicolored decks. A tool would be great, but the theory would be better.

[Broham]

That's going to vary from deck to deck. The best advice I think, would be to read up on the Established decks and DTB for examples. Is there a particular deck you need help with?

[Star|Scream]

That's going to vary from deck to deck. The best advice I think, would be to read up on the Established decks and DTB for examples. Is there a particular deck you need help with?

No, I'm looking for the theory behind why someone uses x amount of fetch lands and x duals.

[AngryTroll]

This is a very interesting topic, actually.

Obviously, to some extent, this will depend on the specific deck for which you are designing the manabase. Do you only need your splash color to cast a single spell, like Warren Weirding or Swords to Plowshares, or are you pretty evenly spread across two colors? Do you run Sensei's Divining Top, which rewards playing a large number of fetchlands? Do you run Brainstorm, which requires fetchlands, but not as many as Top? Are the games going to go long, with you barely wresting control of the game and winning at a few life, or is your life total irrelevant?

I try to make sure I always have access to a basic land in my splash color, and two or three basics in my primary color. Balancing the number of duals and fetches is a complicated art.

[Star|Scream]

This is a very interesting topic, actually.

Obviously, to some extent, this will depend on the specific deck for which you are designing the manabase. Do you only need your splash color to cast a single spell, like Warren Weirding or Swords to Plowshares, or are you pretty evenly spread across two colors? Do you run Sensei's Divining Top, which rewards playing a large number of fetchlands? Do you run Brainstorm, which requires fetchlands, but not as many as Top? Are the games going to go long, with you barely wresting control of the game and winning at a few life, or is your life total irrelevant?

I try to make sure I always have access to a basic land in my splash color, and two or three basics in my primary color. Balancing the number of duals and fetches is a complicated art.

Well these are definitely great questions to think about, and I am hoping that someone has or will wrte a primer answering the questions in depth. I understand it's much more complicated than counting mana symbols, but I often see a lot of posts on multicolored decks where the person is already sure of the proper amounts. How did he get to that conclusion?

I think someone who has little to no experience in using duals could really benefit from this. I know I could!

[troopatroop]

Well these are definitely great questions to think about, and I am hoping that someone has or will wrte a primer answering the questions in depth. I understand it's much more complicated than counting mana symbols, but I often see a lot of posts on multicolored decks where the person is already sure of the proper amounts. How did he get to that conclusion?

I think someone who has little to no experience in using duals could really benefit from this. I know I could!

And what he and everyone else is going to say to you, is it matters what CARDS you're playing. What cards are you trying to cast? There is no formula, because it's always going to depend on that. You're looking for an easy internet fixit for you not knowing anything about Legacy manabases, but there is no shortcut. If you're incapable of figuring it out, then it sucks to be you. Playtesting is the only way to get it perfect, but I guess you can ask yourself a few preliminary questions.

What colors of mana do I need the most turn 1? What Land do you want in play turn 1 the most? 1 and 2 color manabases are easy for this reason, you can generally play 4 of the 2 color dual you need, 4 of the on color fetch + Basics and other fetches and be good. 3-5 colors becomes much more difficult, but you can't look at it in a vacuum.

[keys]

roughly....

mono color:

0-8 fetches (could be more if using Tombstalker, Steppe Lynx, etc.)
10-18 basics

2 color:

6-12 fetches
1-4 duals
4-8 basics

3 color:

8-12 fetches
4-7 duals
1-5 basics (some decks have played zero basics successfully but normally you want at least one in your main color, or the color of your artifact/enchantment removal).

If an extra color is splashed for 0-4 of a single card, you normally only need to include 1 dual that can be fetched by at least 4 of your fetches (1 Volcanic Island off of your blue fetches to play Firespout, for example).

Any deck can support Wasteland if you dedicate the spots to it. They normally count as half a land toward your mana base.

Card filter e.g. Brainstorm and mana accell e.g. Noble Hierarch also count towards your total, but the amount is debatable. I'd say they're worth somewhere around 1/3 to 1/2 of a land.

Lastly, you have to consider your mana curve. If the spells in your deck curve out (i.e. do not go much higher) at 2-3 mana cost, 18-19 land is passable. If you play a decent amount of 3cc spells and a few 4cc, 20-22 is better. If you're trying to support Mox Diamond, you need at least 25.

[jrsthethird]

Also, looking at other options for lands is good. If you want to run Horizon Canopy, for example, you can cut your number of GW lands, but you can afford to squeeze in an extra land because your Canopies effectively cycle late game for business. Other options to consider for manabases, depending on your deck's goal:

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Karakas
Pendelhaven
Dryad Arbor
manlands (on-color or colorless)
Wasteland
etc.

Also, non-mana producing lands should (obviously) count as spells, unless you have multiple Urborgs or reliable ways to pitch Riftstone Portal; in which case you can count them as 1/2 or 1/3 a land.

So figure out your utlilty lands first, then look at your colors involved with those as well as your mana curve and decide which colors are most important in your fetchland suite. Then determine how many basics and how many duals/fetches, based on your deck. If you like having a lot of cards in your graveyard (Knight of the Reliquary, Grim Lavamancer, Crucible of Worlds, threshold, etc.), or card filtering (Top, Brainstorm, Sylvan Library) then run more fetches.

Also, I don't think it's necessary to have more than 4 basics in a 3 color deck, since you want to maximize your chances of getting each color. Sure, Wasteland sucks, but playing around it by fetching basics will probably screw you more than it helps. Sometimes they just have the third Wasteland and there's nothing you can do about it. The point of basics are to take advantage of Path and to get around Moon effects. Everything else is more of a liability.

[Star|Scream]

And what he and everyone else is going to say to you, is it matters what CARDS you're playing. What cards are you trying to cast? There is no formula, because it's always depend on that. You're looking for an easy internet fixit for you not knowing anything about Legacy manabases, but there is no shortcut. If you're incapable of figuring it out, then it sucks to be you.

"you are new to the format, and if you don't know how to fully use the cards you don't even own yet, sucks to be you." lol, someone didn't have his wheaties this morning.



@keys: thank you so much. This will really help me a lot.

[Gocho]

MWS has a tool to calculate it, but only for manalands, not Fetch. You can add some fetchs and calculate for 20-x Fetch.

[jrsthethird]

You can figure your relevant fetches to be triple- or four-color lands; in the early game when you need to fix your colors, you will most likely be able to get everything you need barring Wasteland shenanigans.

[towishimp]

Manabases are tough. There are places to look for help; there've been some good suggestions already.

I found this http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/19327_Best_of_the_West_Manabases_in_Action.html pretty useful. Especially useful is the part where he gives the "magic numbers" of deckbuilding - the number of a given card or card type (usually land) that you should include in your deck in order to expect to see X copies of it by turn Y. Using thtose number, you can plan out your decks turns in your head and figure when you'll need how many of each color, then build the manabase accordingly.

Hope that helps.

[Grollub]

To be honest I've always found the best way to make my mana base as:
Step 1) Gut instinct and experience to draft a raw prototype.
Step 2) Play the goldfish to test, tweak accordingly.
Step 3) Play test against various decks.

I've found no magical formular or theoretical solution to be as solid as the trial and error method. The design of the deck simple matters too much, for the question to be boiled down into a simple algebraic answer.

[TheCramp]

There is also the matter of when you need the mana. I play 4c CB and the answer is diffrent depending on the slash. I run 3 spash cards. W for swords, G for 'Goyf, and R for Firespout. I could run 1 of each basic, but I don't. I run 1 forest, 1 Plains, and 2 Island. I cut the one of Mountain for a Karakas. I need W early, as in turn 1, slightly less than when I need R turn 3. BUT I am more likely to lose the game where I need W turn 1, and don't have it, than I am the game where I need the R turn 3, even though the incidents of that is less frequent. Also a Wasteland on my turn 3 Volcanic Island is less crippeling than other situations, because I'll have 2 mana left, and don't need more than that if I have managed to 3 for one you (ideally). I play full flooded strends, and 3 of each of the other U/x dules in my colors, for a total of 10.

[Ecoris]

You run 3 Scalding Tarn and 3 Misty Rainforest 1 Forest and 0 Mountains?

[TheCramp]

Well not any more... damn it. (probably should not have posted my lazy "didn't-want-to-take-that-misty-rainforest-out-of-my-EDH-deck" list while I was trying to discuss fine tuning mana bases.)

[Amon Amarth]

Another question to ask yourself... "Will I get reamed by Wasteland, either by hitting a splash color or keeping you off a certain amount of mana?" For aggro decks that are splashing a color that's probably not a big deal, you might not even play any cards of that color in your MD. Control decks, however, might have bigger issues with being off a secondary color.

[AngryTroll]

Whenever I take someone's U/x aggro-control list to start goldfishing it, unless it came from a Hatfield, I usually start by adding a basic island. You can always cut the land if the deck doesn't need it, but Brainstorm, Ponder, and even Top are much more powerful when you can use them to find business spells instead of a second or third land.

[SlopeeJ]

This is actually a very good topic.. I have been running Merfolk with white splash and I am trying to figure out what the right manabase should be... I need UU to caste my creatures and with 4 mutavaults and 4 wastelands it just seems that I lose if I don't draw vial.

I wanna jump on the basic island bandwagon and limit my colorless mana while also trying to include a plains when I really need white......Goblins/wasteland decks.

[Star|Scream]

so I finally have an example

WUB deck that NEEDS to have

W OR U by turn 1
UU by turn 2
1UU and/or 1BB by turn 3


So in a perfect world

Tundra
Underground Sea
Scrubland (or another U sea)

by turn 3

Deck does have 4x brainstorm for digging

Where should I begin with my mana base?

[kiblast]

so I finally have an example

WUB deck that NEEDS to have

W OR U by turn 1
UU by turn 2
1UU and/or 1BB by turn 3


So in a perfect world

Tundra
Underground Sea
Scrubland (or another U sea)

by turn 3

Deck does have 4x brainstorm for digging

Where should I begin with my mana base?

you should really start with fetches.I would say that , if you need W-U turn 1, you should definitely run 4 flooded strand firstly. Then, if B is your secondary colour, and you want to have ALL your fetches to be able to search for U (mainly) and W, you can run 3-4 polluted delta.
so 7-8 fetches among these 2.
Then: how is your cc curve? if it is low you should run between 20-22 lands, and stick to 7-8 fetches, if it's high, go up to 24-27 and a fixed 8 fetches.
Running 4 brainstorm is another reason to go with at least 7 fetches for shuffle effects.
Is your metagame nonbasic-hater? run 1-2 island (resolving brainstorm under wastelock is important) and 1 plains , and if you have room even 1 swamp.
Then, duals. Remember that duals are not here to be wasted, but as an added resource. Running 7 fetches , and 3-4 basics lets you play around wastes by fetching basics mainly. However you should run between 6-9 duals, depending on how much specific casting cost you have (for example, if you run lots of 1UB, UU, 1BB , UWB casting costs, you need an high dual count to minimize te risk to be screwed on 1 colour) Do you run wastes or mishra's?

if not i would go like this:

4x flooded strand
4x polluted delta
4x tundra
3x underground sea
1-2x scrubland
2x island (i assume your deck is mostly blue based)
1-2x plains
1x swamp (if you have BB among your casting costs)

wich is a total of 21-22 lands. In this config., you can draw 1-2 fetches in your starting hand pretty much always, fetch for basics and only fetch for duals when you really need to fix your mana to cast a spell.
If your deck is pretty high-curve or mana intensive, feel free to add the 4th underground and 3rd scrubland, or some more basics.

But this is really rough, this manabase should be adapted on what are your critical spells (for example brainstorm and StP) wich you need to be always able to cast. If you got more B key spells, increase the number of swamp, and so on.

by the way, only testing can lead you to a perfect manabase.
(all imho)

[kiblast]

MWS has a tool to calculate it, but only for manalands, not Fetch. You can add some fetchs and calculate for 20-x Fetch.

+1

Mws tool is so powerful. By counting your specifical mana count you need to have your deck run properly, you can adjust your land count , duals count and fetch count.
For fetches, just assume that they counts all the types of mana they can fetch for, including duals. So in a UGB deck running bayou, Usea and tropicals, your misty rainforests can be added to all 3 mana counts, because you are able to fetch for every colour with em.