Punishing Fire.dec

[Anusien]

For a while I was super excited about Legacy Pyromancer Ascension. I thought it had all these amazing tools, and a turn 2 Ascension was almost unbeatable. And I theorized a bunch and tested some, and it was proving really good. Then I played it in a local Friday tournament. I lost one match where I got Ascension active, won one game where I comboed out with Ascension, and won three other games where Ascension was completely superfluous. The good card was Punishing Fire.

Punishing Fire is amazing against Merfolk and Goblins. I mean yeah, there are tons of cards that are amazing against those decks. Firespout, Grim Lavamancer, the entire Zoo deck, etc. But I never had it be that clear-cut: I drew Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows, I had a Regrowth to get back Grove when he Wasted it, I beat Merfolk 2-0.

So I built this deck, and I haven't done much tuning, but most of the cards excite me. The premise is to build around Punishing Fire (which is conveniently immune to all graveyard hate but Wheel of Sun and Moon and Leyline of the Void), then pack the rest of the deck with ways to beat combo and zoo. The combo matchup in game 1 is probably still a little rough even with the faster clocks, but if you have to pick a deck to lose to, that would be the one. Anyway, it's still very much a work in progress.

// Lands
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
6 Island
1 Dust Bowl

// Creatures
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

// Spells
3 Forbid
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Wipe Away
4 Spell Snare
3 Intuition
4 Punishing Fire
4 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam

Wipe Away is probably superfluous; I had a maindeck slot open and didn't want to fold randomly to Leyline of the Void decks.
Dust Bowl is in there as a random singleton land that's good with Loam. I had one land slot open and wanted a way to take advantage of Loam. It's better than Wasteland because it doesn't force you to Loam ever turn.
You really only want two Forbids except that sometimes you Intuition for one. I guess you could replace one with a Regrowth if you'd like.

The sideboard would for sure have Krosan Grip, Submerge, and Spell Pierce.

[Infinitium]

On the off hand I'd say play Kavu Predator to further mitigate the effects of Grove, and perhaps go into white for StP. 4 Fires/groves seem a little too much considering they're a mid/lategame engine and you can Intuition into it (LftL/Grove/Fire).

[keys]

You have a lot of slow cards that look cute and sort of work with the combo, but probably don't deserve a spot. Specifically: Dust Bowl, Dryad, and Forbid.

Here's the deck that got 2nd place at a 33 man tourney in Spain:

2 Sower of Temptation --> Intuition?
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds --> Loam?

3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Polluted Delta --> Misty
1 Flooded Strand --> Tarn
1 Scalding Tarn --> Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island --> 1 Forest?

The manabase could use a tune-up, but I think it's a good start in the right direction-- that is, using Next Level Threshold as a shell. I can see Crucible being replaced by Loam and the addition of a couple Intuition. Intuition on Punishing Fire when you already have Grove is nasty. I love that they aren't redundant.

Jace should be a no-brainer, and Stifle makes sense if you want to protect your Groves and your graveyard (when they're smart enough to wait until your Grove is tapped), as well as provide another line of attack with Wasteland. Daze and Lightning Bolt seem obvious as well, but I'm not sure about Sower. It seems to work in NLT, but it might be competing with Jace at the 4cc spot. Punishing Fire/Grove is pretty mana intensive already. That's maybe where I would put the Intuitions.

Add Firespout to your list of possible SB cards as well.

[Anusien]

On the off hand I'd say play Kavu Predator to further mitigate the effects of Grove, and perhaps go into white for StP. 4 Fires/groves seem a little too much considering they're a mid/lategame engine and you can Intuition into it (LftL/Grove/Fire).
Thinking that Fire is a mid/lategame engine is asking for trouble. Part of the reason 4 Fire/4 Grove can do so well against Merfolk and Goblins is because you can count on casting them on turn 2-3, instead of waiting to set it up through Intuition. You would rather see a Grove already and get to Intuition for 3x Punishing Fire than have to set both up with Intuition and only kill one thing a turn.

[AngryTroll]

I like the look of your list, Anusien, but I think I'd want to supplement the Fires with some more removal to make sure you survive the early game. Killing a Nacatl costs 2RR, and killing a Goyf is probably impossible without combat damage supplemented by Punishing Fire.

How often is Forbid better than regular old Counterspell? I imagine you don't throw Punishing Fires away to it until the very late game (if at all), and you're only running a single Life from the Loam.

[Anusien]

As a deck builder, I know how to beat Merfolk and Goblins. It's rather easy, if you can run enough red spells. In general, I don't know how to beat Zoo. I don't think Bolt is enough. Drop of Honey or Maze of Ith mgiht be a better option than Dust Bowl and Wipe Away.

[kicks_422]

I think I'm more interested to see your Ascension list. :tongue: Would you mind posting it?

[GGoober]

I would like to extirpate PFires and gain life from Groves!

But cool deck otherwise, I like how you found the best shell to run Quirion Dryad in. I like the Intuition/Loam/Groves/Fires combo. Seems strong. I'm not sure if aggro-control is the best shell, but a Loam-control shell maybe with Standstill or Treasure Hunt+Maze control shell seems strong with Intuition. Perhaps this list for a Punishing Fire.dec:


// Lands
3 Volcanic Island
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
3 Maze of Ith

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Treasure Hunt
2 Cunning Wish
3 Jace 2.0

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare/Pierce/Counterspell
2 Forbid

3 Intuition
4 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
3 EE


Not sure if lack of goyfs but +3 EE and +3 Maze +4 Factory is still enough to stop early gobs/folks/cats in Legacy. Should be decent, postboard pack in Firespouts.

Since it's quite a loam-based deck, you can add in 1 Shackles for recursion. Loam + Forbid is always strong as usual, I'm not a fan of Dustbowl since it takes too much mana if you're running Loam + Dustbowl. Wasteland is quite efficient and better with Loam-Intuition.

[keys]

I would like to extirpate PFires and gain life from Groves!

It's a mana ability, so you can still respond to split second by tapping Grove and triggering Fire to return to your hand.


Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities.)

You would need to cast Extirpate with the trigger on the stack.

[Anusien]

If you want to use Wasteland, you have to cast Loam every turn. And you have to Dredge Loam every turn. If you use Dust Bowl, you only need to cast Loam every now and then. It costs more mana, but you get more draw steps.

Running Engineered Explosives (i.e., more slow cards) isn't a winning strategy against Zoo or Combo. Lightning Bolt is also notoriously bad against Tarmogoyf. The current shell is not 100%, but you can count on Punishing Fires to beat Merfolk, Goblins and all the other random beatdown or tribal decks. The rest of your deck needs to beat the other half the format, like Zoo, Survival and TES.

[keys]

Stifle is good against all three.

[Antonius]

dudes, run CB. I know, I know, it's a dick move and only jerks do it. But it fits here, because Punishing Fires is one of two 2cmc red spells that are actually playable (the other being PoP)

[Anusien]

Someone (Antonius) needs to go read more Sirlin.

I don't think CB is right for the deck; I don't know if the mana can support it. It would certainly improve the combo matchup, but it doesn't do as much as I'd like to improve the Zoo or the Vengevine matchups.

I'm also not convinced that Stifle is good against any of the three. It's certainly bad against Survival and pretty poor against TES. It might be good against Zoo if you can hit their fetchlands and screw them.

[keys]

I'm also not convinced that Stifle is good against any of the three. It's certainly bad against Survival and pretty poor against TES. It might be good against Zoo if you can hit their fetchlands and screw them.

Poor against TES? It's another spell they have to deal with, unless they have Silence. Some players are even dropping white for a more stable manabase.

Stifling a Survival activation can stall or mess up a madness player if they're trying to go off. It's also good against their Wastelands (targeting your Groves).

Both decks play fetchlands.

[Nonkel]

My first post here....

Ive considered PF before, build a more abusive deck, what do you all think about this:

1#Fiery Justice
2#Savannah
4#Kavu Predator
4#Invigorate
4#Grove of the Burnwillows
3#Arid Mesa
4#Qasali Pridemage
4#Chrome Mox
4#Wild Nacatl
4#Skyshroud Cutter
4#Tarmogoyf
1#Forest
4#Punishing Fire
1#Taiga
4#Swords to Plowshares
2#Plateau
3#Wooded Foothills
3#Windswept Heath
4#Eladamri’s Call

// sideboard
1#Fiery Justice
2#Krosan Grip
2#Nature’s Claim
3#Mindbreak Trap
3#Tormod’s Crypt
3#Red Elemental Blast
1#Reverent Silence

[Mantis]

The current shell is not 100%, but you can count on Punishing Fires to beat Merfolk, Goblins and all the other random beatdown or tribal decks.
While I do think Punishing Fires/Grove could potentially aid you in winning some games against Merfolk and Goblins, you have to take into account both decks run Wasteland so your combo isn't waterproof. Both decks can also potentially kill you on turn 4 or 5 and by that time you might not have your combo assembeled. While I don't think Grove/Fires is bad at all, I do think you overestimate the impact against Merfolk and Goblins.

Basically I think you grossly overestimate your matchup against Goblins, you run all kinds of cards that Goblins isn't particularly afraid off: Quirion Dryad, Spell Snare, Forbid and Intuition, then rely on a combo that is prone to Wasteland, GY hate and Boartusk Liege to do all the dirty work for you. Could you explain where my logic fails me?

[Mr. Safety]

I like the idea...and I have already been abusing Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows in legacy. It started from the search to find a decent Tarmogoyf substitute...and I came up with Kavu Predator/Punishing Fire. I actually run a ZOO deck with the combo, and what zoo brings is Swords to Plowshares...which is AWESOME. As soon as you have Punishing Fire active, you can pretty much keep most tribal aggro in check (Goblins, Fish, Faeries, Elves) If you can stick a Predator, the guy gets HUGE, and if you can hustle a Swords, SOLID GOLD. I wouldn't say it's as competitive as traditional zoo lists, but it certainly is fun.

My current zoo decklist:

Wild Nacatl x4
Loam Lion x4
Kird Ape x4
Kavu Predator x4
Qasali Pridemage x4
Wooly Thoctar x2
Lightning Bolt x4
Swords to Plowshares x4
Lightning Helix x3
Rancor x3
Punishing Fire x3
Sylvan Library x1
Arid Mesa x4
Wooded Foothills x1
Grove of the Burnwillows x3
Horizon Canopy x1
Treetop Village x1
Plains x1
Forest x1
Mountain x1
Sacred Foundry x2
Temple Garden x2
Stomping Ground x3

I know I have the wrong lands, but I can't afford a/b/rev. duel lands, so shocklands it is.